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  #201  
Old 05-13-2022, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I believe you are probably correct, but the backhanded point I was trying to make is that a wealthy alum who is CEO of a privately held business (not a Disney) could gin up a NIL contract for a player and basically write him a check for $X,000,000 and the kid does absolutely nothing. Say the alum owns a medical device company - something that no college player endorsement would have any value - the wealthy alum structures the contract to pay out in installments every month the player plays. This makes sure the player stays at the school and (hopefully) stays out of trouble and keeps his grades up. It doesnít take long for these things to get really creative.
I think this is basically what the U of Miami alum is doing. He has several companies. I think he is going to put the guys on billboards or something like that. But $100,000 for a photo shoot is a good gig if you can get it.
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  #202  
Old 05-13-2022, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I think UD is perfectly positioned to take advantage of this especially compared to the rest of the A10
I donít think other A 10 teams are our competition. Itís Power5 teams that we need to outspend.
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  #203  
Old 05-14-2022, 11:27 AM
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Power 5 Teams

should be able to cherry pick the best players from the smaller conferences. It is a mess and should be changed.
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  #204  
Old 05-14-2022, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
It is a mess and should be changed.
Why? If that's what's best for the athlete, why limit opportunity?
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  #205  
Old 05-14-2022, 10:15 PM
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Athletes

participate in a sport. It is the sport that needs to be sustained while the athletes they come and they go.
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  #206  
Old 05-15-2022, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I donít think other A 10 teams are our competition. Itís Power5 teams that we need to outspend.
Even under the old system I don't think UD was really competing against Kansas, UCLA, Kentucky, etc. Before or after the McDonald's All American the blue bloods are after wasn't the type of guy UD usually recruits

Nijel Pack who transferred from Kansas State to Miami and got the $400k per year deal doesn't seem like the type of player UD would have gotten under either scenario

There's a lot of good players who don't end up in the power conferences. The P5/Big East can't get them all.

UD isn't going to win a bidding war against Texas but I don't think they have to be successful
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  #207  
Old 05-15-2022, 03:55 PM
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Athletes

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
participate in a sport. It is the sport that needs to be sustained while the athletes they come and they go.
are entertainers. If the entertainment business of college sport can't survive the free market as is, its business proprietors are free to establish the conditions under which it can, subject to applicable labor law. And who are they to tell athletes (I hesitate to use employee, although that's what they really are) they can't earn outside of the entertainment workplace.

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  #208  
Old 05-15-2022, 04:16 PM
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You see the high profile examples of NIL: Miami, Texas A&M footbal, etc.

Is there any evidence that say lower profile power conference schools are spending big money to get players? The DePaul's, Oregon State basketball, Northwestern, etc
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  #209  
Old 05-15-2022, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
are entertainers. If the entertainment business of college sport can't survive the free market as is, its business proprietors are free to establish the conditions under which it can, subject to applicable labor law. And who are they to tell athletes (I hesitate to use employee, although that's what they really are) they can't earn outside of the entertainment workplace.
Exactly right, but if the fans lose interest and stop coming and supporting, then ...
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  #210  
Old 05-15-2022, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Exactly right, but if the fans lose interest and stop coming and supporting, then ...
Then it's a non-viable business as structured. I'm not saying universities, under the NCAA umbrella or not, can't set the rules for their entertainment business. The NIL genie's out of the bottle, though, and no amount of wishing is going to put it back in. It may be time to recognize college athletes as the professionals they are, treat them like employees, let them unionize should they choose, and go on our merry ways. I can't see a way other than collective bargaining to set any sort of NIL earnings cap that would withstand the inevitable court challenges.

While all of this is probably mostly applicable (in order) to football, MBB, baseball and WBB, I can see it filtering down to all sorts of other sports, especially at the P5 level.
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  #211  
Old 05-16-2022, 09:46 AM
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This is a Lot of Crap

Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
are entertainers. If the entertainment business of college sport can't survive the free market as is, its business proprietors are free to establish the conditions under which it can, subject to applicable labor law. And who are they to tell athletes (I hesitate to use employee, although that's what they really are) they can't earn outside of the entertainment workplace.
Athletes play a team sport and are co-dependent on the success of their teamates. That is why agents for players is wrong in a team sport. Players should not be paid as "entertainers" as they are not in the same market.
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  #212  
Old 05-16-2022, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
You see the high profile examples of NIL: Miami, Texas A&M footbal, etc.

Is there any evidence that say lower profile power conference schools are spending big money to get players? The DePaul's, Oregon State basketball, Northwestern, etc
It's probably too early to tell, BUT, just look at a Northwestern for example, they probably have more $100 millionaires and billionaire alums and boosters than most schools. It doesn't take too many of these guys/gals to spend stupid money to change the trajectory of any sport in their program. NWU just has to find one/two that want to. If you have a 50yo alum who owns his own business - worth $200million - loves NWU basketball - looks at this as way to vault the program ahead of IU, OSU, Purdue - says to himself, hey, lets have some fun with this and pushes $5MM into NIL instead of building a new dorm/building . . .
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  #213  
Old 05-16-2022, 10:29 AM
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You're just flat-out wrong here...

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
Athletes play a team sport and are co-dependent on the success of their teamates. That is why agents for players is wrong in a team sport. Players should not be paid as "entertainers" as they are not in the same market.
People who are in plays or movies are co-dependent on the success of their castmates. Are they not entertainers?

Why do YOU watch and follow the Flyers or any other team if not for entertainment? UD Arena holds 14k for what purpose? Graduations? Whether college or professional sport, if there were no spectators, no merchandising, and no broadcast money, would teams exist?

Like it or not, the sports business is entertainment. If no fans, then no money, no teams and no business. NIL allows players to cash in on their celebrity in that entertainment business.
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  #214  
Old 05-16-2022, 10:45 AM
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I take it you have never been to a diii college game of any sort. Do you think that di bowling has thousands of fans? I pitched against an NAIA team loaded with future pro players (low level but still pro) with very few fans. There are professional lacrosse players who played in front of few fans at some schools. The Tampa Bay Lightening had a player get ice time in the Stanley Cup finals who played club hockey in college. How did that team exist? How does field hockey continue to exist? Sports is about much more than just entertainment.
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  #215  
Old 05-16-2022, 11:56 AM
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Brad, there are other examples of amateur athletes playing for the opportunity for exposure without being compensated. Look at the USHL. Players are using the league to gain exposure to college and NHL teams. Players value the opportunity to cash in later. At the di level, itís not naive to think players would participate for a combination of the love of the game and for opportunity.
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  #216  
Old 05-16-2022, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
It's probably too early to tell, BUT, just look at a Northwestern for example, they probably have more $100 millionaires and billionaire alums and boosters than most schools. It doesn't take too many of these guys/gals to spend stupid money to change the trajectory of any sport in their program. NWU just has to find one/two that want to. If you have a 50yo alum who owns his own business - worth $200million - loves NWU basketball - looks at this as way to vault the program ahead of IU, OSU, Purdue - says to himself, hey, lets have some fun with this and pushes $5MM into NIL instead of building a new dorm/building . . .
That's the wildcard in all this. It'll be interesting to see if a non power conference school makes a move because of some rich alums
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  #217  
Old 05-16-2022, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
That's the wildcard in all this. It'll be interesting to see if a non power conference school makes a move because of some rich alums
My dad always told me to remember that most people who have a lot of money didn't get it by being stupid or giving it away. While there are and will be exceptions, I think folks may overestimate how much money someone is willing to spend to help NW get to the NCAA tournament or something like that. If you look at a school like NW or Stanford, I would guess there are just as many alums concerned about the school lowing admissions standards for athletes as there are alums willing to win with the best talent money can buy.

If it happens, it happens but it will be an arms race. Is tOSU going to just say "aw shucks" when NW starts out recruiting (out spending) them? Of course not, it will find its level as all things do.
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  #218  
Old 05-16-2022, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
My dad always told me to remember that most people who have a lot of money didn't get it by being stupid or giving it away. While there are and will be exceptions, I think folks may overestimate how much money someone is willing to spend to help NW get to the NCAA tournament or something like that. If you look at a school like NW or Stanford, I would guess there are just as many alums concerned about the school lowing admissions standards for athletes as there are alums willing to win with the best talent money can buy.

If it happens, it happens but it will be an arms race. Is tOSU going to just say "aw shucks" when NW starts out recruiting (out spending) them? Of course not, it will find its level as all things do.
Good points. It just takes one over zealous alum with stupid money to upset the apple cart. How about a John Daly or Phil Michelson who have history of throwing money around. Buckle your seat belts, we are in for some turbulence.
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  #219  
Old 05-16-2022, 02:24 PM
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At most schools boosters pay a lot or most of a coaches salary. There's gonna be some non power conference school that redirects money from coaches salary.

Let's say your Duquesne. You've tried a bunch of coaches and nothing works. If you've got say a $1 million to spend on a head coach. Hire a D3 coach for 100K and take that 900K that the last coach got and put into NIL

They won't outspend Texas but maybe the get the transfer that would have gone to Murray State or George Mason.

In a league like the A10 or especially one below I'd bet $1 million into NIL would really move the needle.
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Old 05-16-2022, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
I take it you have never been to a diii college game of any sort. Do you think that di bowling has thousands of fans? I pitched against an NAIA team loaded with future pro players (low level but still pro) with very few fans. There are professional lacrosse players who played in front of few fans at some schools. The Tampa Bay Lightening had a player get ice time in the Stanley Cup finals who played club hockey in college. How did that team exist? How does field hockey continue to exist? Sports is about much more than just entertainment.
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I can't say I've ever been to a DIII game, but I have attended DII and junior college games. The fact that there are any spectators at all implies entertainment. I have also been to plays with just a few in the audience. I never said it had to be profitable entertainment. Other than the few that make big football money, why universities choose to be in the sports entertainment business is beyond me. I would imagine it enhances branding and name recognition, hence enrollment and alumni donation, at any level.

As for club sports, they're sponsored for student recreation. That's entertainment for a different target audience. In all of this, I recognize that participating in a team sport has lessons to offer the individual. I am not sold, however, that sponsoring any team sport is vital to the mission of university education.

As far as other sports, like field hockey, go, Title IX drives much of it by balancing out football. Add to that the required number of sports required to be a DI (or II or III) school, and that's how you get most of the women's teams and "The Ocho" sports.

But the NIL kerfuffle isn't really about the DIII or NAIA world or the non-marquee sports, whatever they may be. The big-money hand wringing is all about DI football and basketball. There's likely to be trickle down to other sports as well, but mostly football drives the bus.

Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
At the di level, itís not naive to think players would participate for a combination of the love of the game and for opportunity.
True, but that doesn't mean it's not entertainment.

My point in all of this is if any athlete, at any level, can cash in on his or her celebrity by earning NIL money, that opportunity should be afforded.
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Old 05-16-2022, 02:52 PM
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I love college basketball for all it is but really, who plays for the love of the game if they have a choice? There are people who play with alot more joy than others and Obi is at the top of that list, but if he were playing for the love of the game we would have had one he!! front court the last two years.

It is sort of like "it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, but how you play the game." We say that to kids as part of a larger life lesson, but I can tell you I have never heard anyone who consistently wins say "it doesn't matter if you win or lose." I will also tell you that my 5 year old nephew and every player on his AYSO team knows the exact score of every game, even though they don't keep score.

I don't know how we can expect players to put aside self interest for the good of the game when they would be the only ones doing so.
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  #222  
Old 05-16-2022, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
As for club sports, they're sponsored for student recreation. That's entertainment for a different target audience.
That may be true about the sponsorship at some schools, but not all. I played club soccer in college, and the team members paid for all of our expenses, but our expenses were basically non-existent other than gas money to drive our cars to away games. We had no coach, and we just practiced at a local field off campus. There were few spectators at our games.
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Old 05-17-2022, 09:39 AM
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Flyer98, I was specifically saying that there are players who play for the love of the game. That doesnít exclude the possibility of having the pro dream. This isnít exclusive to diii or club teams. Walk-ons donít have a realistic shot at being paid to play. They may have an outside shot at earning a scholarship at best. Still, they play a game that makes their education significantly harder. They would not do that if they werenít playing for the love of the game.

You should not confuse the love of the game with not caring about results. Part of the love of the game is the love of competition. Itís odd that people believe an 18 year old high school player will play with no expectation of future money or scholarship but a 19 year old plays only for money, fame, and notoriety. Itís odd that people believe that money is the sole goal while the Olympics still has competitors that make very little if anything in their sport. Playing and winning is a powerful motivator.

Nothing here should be seen as suggesting that athletes should not be able to receive some form of payment. I do think that there has to be some allowance for NIL earnings. Iíve long held this belief. I also believe itís reasonable to monitor, manage, and limit any payments.
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Old 05-17-2022, 09:49 AM
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Ohio High School Athletic Assn. Rejects NIL

The Name, Image and Likeness proposal for Ohio high school athletes was one of two referendum items that failed in voting by high school principals across the state, the Ohio High School Athletic Association announced today.
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
The Name, Image and Likeness proposal for Ohio high school athletes was one of two referendum items that failed in voting by high school principals across the state, the Ohio High School Athletic Association announced today.
I believe itís coming. If itís ok for 18-22 year olds, there is no way itís going to hold up in court for any age unless there is some congressional action in Washington. There are child actors making good money. Why not ďchildĒ athletes?

I actually think the players under college age might have a stronger case. I believe those coming out of high school should chose between going pro in some league or go to college with a scholarship ďpaymentĒ option with a cap on NIL. High school or junior high athletes donít have any other option to play and get paid for NIL.
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Flyer98, I was specifically saying that there are players who play for the love of the game. That doesn’t exclude the possibility of having the pro dream. This isn’t exclusive to diii or club teams. Walk-ons don’t have a realistic shot at being paid to play. They may have an outside shot at earning a scholarship at best. Still, they play a game that makes their education significantly harder. They would not do that if they weren’t playing for the love of the game.

You should not confuse the love of the game with not caring about results. Part of the love of the game is the love of competition. It’s odd that people believe an 18 year old high school player will play with no expectation of future money or scholarship but a 19 year old plays only for money, fame, and notoriety. It’s odd that people believe that money is the sole goal while the Olympics still has competitors that make very little if anything in their sport. Playing and winning is a powerful motivator.

Nothing here should be seen as suggesting that athletes should not be able to receive some form of payment. I do think that there has to be some allowance for NIL earnings. I’ve long held this belief. I also believe it’s reasonable to monitor, manage, and limit any payments.
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I could not agree more.

Think of it in your profession. How many people do you know who do it for the money? Not many. They burn out quickly. People do their jobs because they have a passion for it, whatever it is. The ones who don't are miserable.

Think about the people who run, or cycle, or play in a men's softball league. Have you ever played men's softball?? Fights break out constantly at those games, and it's a non-contact sport. Why? Because humans like to compete, and they like to WIN. They're not doing it for the NIL money.
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Old 05-17-2022, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Flyer98, I was specifically saying that there are players who play for the love of the game. That doesn’t exclude the possibility of having the pro dream. This isn’t exclusive to diii or club teams. Walk-ons don’t have a realistic shot at being paid to play. They may have an outside shot at earning a scholarship at best. Still, they play a game that makes their education significantly harder. They would not do that if they weren’t playing for the love of the game.

You should not confuse the love of the game with not caring about results. Part of the love of the game is the love of competition. It’s odd that people believe an 18 year old high school player will play with no expectation of future money or scholarship but a 19 year old plays only for money, fame, and notoriety. It’s odd that people believe that money is the sole goal while the Olympics still has competitors that make very little if anything in their sport. Playing and winning is a powerful motivator.


Nothing here should be seen as suggesting that athletes should not be able to receive some form of payment. I do think that there has to be some allowance for NIL earnings. I’ve long held this belief. I also believe it’s reasonable to monitor, manage, and limit any payments.
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Those are all very good points but I guess in my mind, the walk on, the DII guy, the adult rec league stuff are examples of people that don't really have a choice but to play for love of the game. Those guys are still going to play college ball because they love the competition, and maybe alot of the walkons will get to play alot more (or even become scholarship athletes) if the other guys go somewhere else. College basketball might actually revert to what it looked like in the 60s and 70s when UD was a premier program.

I am not saying that guys who get paid don't love the game. Obviously if you can get paid to do what you love that is best of both worlds. But if we expect kids who could get paid to play, to "just play for the love of the game" then I think it is fair to expect the same from the schools, the TV networks, etc... Just break even and donate all the rest, or get rid of PSLs and make season tix $150/yr. Sell a beer for $2. Don't charge CBS $2,000,000,000.00 for the TV rights and so on and so on with stuff that will never happen. Everywhere you look everyone is maximizing profit but the people who actually have the unique skill that makes the whole thing go should just play for love.

Also, I view the NIL stuff as completely separate from the basketball. Players are being paid for their (local) celebrity not for playing basketball and to that extent I don't think it can be regulated. The fact that a bunch of principals got together and voted on whether or not a group of people should be able to make money off their own image and likeness is illustrative of the problem. In what universe is that something that a high school administrator should decide? I can see a future where kids will play AAU or club ball exclusively and high school sports suffer the same fate and many fear college sports are going to suffer. I can remember when I was in high school kids that were really good at tennis or golf or soccer all had private coaches (for tennis and golf) and played on club teams (for soccer) but not on the high school teams.

Will there be kids and families that make bad decisions and get taken advantage of? Sure. Taylor Swift's parents should be jailed for letting her sign the contract she signed at 14 or for at least not getting her a better attorney, (that is hyperbole, of course parents are going to do the best they can), but we wouldn't think about telling her or any other prodigy that they have to go to college and major in music for a year (and play concerts that the school would charge for but for which they would not be paid), before they could become a professional. Do you think she doesn't love music?

I think if we didn't all love college basketball and know what this is likely to do to college basketball, this would be a no brainer of a discussion. As was mentioned, nobody seems to have a problem with child actors, and I really don't see what the difference is from the standpoint of the actor/player.

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Old 05-17-2022, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I could not agree more.

Think of it in your profession. How many people do you know who do it for the money? Not many. They burn out quickly. People do their jobs because they have a passion for it, whatever it is. The ones who don't are miserable.

Think about the people who run, or cycle, or play in a men's softball league. Have you ever played men's softball?? Fights break out constantly at those games, and it's a non-contact sport. Why? Because humans like to compete, and they like to WIN. They're not doing it for the NIL money.
Your point is taken, but would those people who have a passion for what they do do it for free? That is the question here. While I agree with you 100% that if you are only in it for the money you are going to burn out, the opposite is also true. I don't know alot of people who work for free, no matter how much they love their job.

The guys who play men's softball and treat it like it is game 7 of the world series are by definition people who play for love but have no other option. If there was NIL money available I am guessing nobody would turn it down or worry about what it is going to do to the league. Also, if you are getting in fights at a men's league softball game, you may have larger issues than a love of competition, and I say that as someone who has gotten in fights while competing in recreational sports leagues, not something I am proud of or that I feel makes me a "winner".
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Old 05-17-2022, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Think of it in your profession. How many people do you know who do it for the money? Not many. They burn out quickly. People do their jobs because they have a passion for it, whatever it is. The ones who don't are miserable.
I wish I had your job. I 100% do my job for the money. While "miserable" is a bit too strong a word, I think a lot of people are "working for the weekend".

I always thought there was a reason they called it "work" and a reason they pay you to do it. I think you overestimate how many people have a passion for their job. How many people would work a single extra day if they could get paid the exact same amount to stay home? I wouldn't even go back to the office to get my things. lol.
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Old 05-17-2022, 03:29 PM
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My wife and I just went to the Miamisburg Mickey D's this weekend round midnight. We were told that they were only accepting doordash orders. Needless to say we were pi...upset. She loudly asked "Why does this store suck?" ,(we have many issues with this store). The dude on the mike actually replied, "Because No one wants to work!" This seems to be the general opinion about a great deal of the populace in this age. Working is anathema to the unemployed majority of the working age group of Americans.

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Old 05-17-2022, 04:21 PM
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Superfan, does work require payment? Or, do you define work as a sustained effort for a purpose? Is it not work when someone says that they worked in the yard? Does a stay at home parent work? When I look at sports, I believe a tremendous amount of work goes into playing at a high level. I compare this to recreational sports. I had to put in a lot of work to play college baseball. I played rec league basketball for poops and giggles. My son describes his 6 am junior hockey practices as work. Itís hardly work when his buddies and he play 18. Big difference.

I think one of my fundamental problems with some of the comparisons with professional sports is that college players are playing for a non-profit organization. The non-profitsís goal is to educate and to foster growth of students. Thatís a huge mother may I step from professional sport organizations. I accept that the educational process is not implicated by a studentís ability to earn money outside the classroom or the sidelines. Iíve long believed that forbidding student-athletes from using their likeness and talents to earn money was draconian. If a non-athlete has unique talents, that student could accept whatever the market will allow. For me, the distinction and line to be drawn is at paying a student to attend a specific school. Itís the booster problem. The booster problem remains and is still impermissible. Thatís a good thing. The iniquities that will exist will likely be quelled by experience. While Nike could care less where a student-athlete is going to school, the local car dealership will. While Nike can handle a kid gone bad, the local restaurant may not. These experiences may curb the enthusiasm of some folks with deep pockets. Experience affects the markets. Makes sense. I think itís also reasonable for schools, conferences, and states to be concerned with booster involvement. My guess is that weíll see some form of NIL contract clearinghouse be organized in the next couple of years. That, too, could curb some enthusiasm. I would like to see a fork in the road developed where a player is either scholarship or pay to play. Again, these student-athletes are playing for a non-profit. If theyíre making well into the six digits, they should have to pay for school. If other students are making bank, it will be a consideration in granting any financial aid. If a player makes bank, I would like to see something similar. Whatever, I do think limits can and should be in place.

With all of this said, I like the idea of college sports being like any other school activity. Activities should be available to all students. All students should be able to take advantage of a schoolís opportunities. If a world famous actress or model went to a school, would certain extracurricular activities be off limits based on her income level? Would she be excluded from a school production? This gives me pauseÖa lot of pause. I think this is why the issue is so difficult. Itís not as easy many of us would hope. Itís not monochromatic.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
I wish I had your job. I 100% do my job for the money. While "miserable" is a bit too strong a word, I think a lot of people are "working for the weekend".

I always thought there was a reason they called it "work" and a reason they pay you to do it. I think you overestimate how many people have a passion for their job. How many people would work a single extra day if they could get paid the exact same amount to stay home? I wouldn't even go back to the office to get my things. lol.

You're framing the question wrong.

Given: you must work to survive.

Now, with that as a given, you can either work a job you hate with a passion but make good money or a job you really enjoy doing every day but doesn't pay nearly as well. Your choice?

It's not a simple yes / no answer, there's a continuum. You're probably willing to accept a little more crap for a lot more money, but not a lot more crap for a little more money. Very few people last a long time in a job that they do only for the money (but really hate).

Personally I would do my job for a LOT less money because I love what I do--assuming I have to do something to feed my family.

Now if the government is going to pay you well enough and you don't have to do anything, quite a lot of people will choose that.
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
I think one of my fundamental problems with some of the comparisons with professional sports is that college players are playing for a non-profit organization.
I think this is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Nonprofit in no way means not in the business of making money. The NCAA is a nonprofit and it makes billions. Heck, the Red Cross is a non-profit and its CEO made $694k in 2018. I get that the CEO of the RC has a lot bigger responsibility than your average basketball player, but that's irrelevant to the core issue.

Why should playing for (or being employed by) a non-profit in any way limit what you can earn?
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Personally I would do my job for a LOT less money because I love what I do--assuming I have to do something to feed my family.
So if your employer came to you and said "Gazoo, we know you love your job, so we're going to pay you a LOT less money," you would be OK with that? That's what capping NIL earnings would essentially do to those fortunate few making a substantial NIL sum.
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Old 05-18-2022, 01:23 AM
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Im guessing 10% love their jobs and have a real passion for it and I dont see much wrong with that. I doubt trash collectors are passionate about trash and recycling. Does anyone really think the guy with the carpet store has a burning passion for carpet, rugs, and tile? Nobody grows up wanting to sell carpet. Tim Hogan learned to love the money carpet brought him however and there's no shame in that. You learn to tolerate whatever becomes successful. If we were all gifted with the occupation of passionate enjoyment, we'd be fingerpainting in our basements and selling lithographs for thousands a piece.

As Gazoo pointed out, the goal is to get paid as much as possible for doing as little as possible. Its called efficiency of time and resources. Some manage it legitimately while others manufacture that condition through more scrupulous means. Money is freedom. And with freedom, you have more time to do the things you are most passionate about. The circle becomes complete.
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Old 05-18-2022, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Im guessing 10% love their jobs and have a real passion for it and I dont see much wrong with that. I doubt trash collectors are passionate about trash and recycling. Does anyone really think the guy with the carpet store has a burning passion for carpet, rugs, and tile? Nobody grows up wanting to sell carpet. Tim Hogan learned to love the money carpet brought him however and there's no shame in that. You learn to tolerate whatever becomes successful. If we were all gifted with the occupation of passionate enjoyment, we'd be fingerpainting in our basements and selling lithographs for thousands a piece.

As Gazoo pointed out, the goal is to get paid as much as possible for doing as little as possible. Its called efficiency of time and resources. Some manage it legitimately while others manufacture that condition through more scrupulous means. Money is freedom. And with freedom, you have more time to do the things you are most passionate about. The circle becomes complete.
Getting paid as much as possible for doing as little as possible. sounds like the mantra of the UAW when I worked in the auto industry. Japs cleaned out clock.
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Old 05-18-2022, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
So if your employer came to you and said "Gazoo, we know you love your job, so we're going to pay you a LOT less money," you would be OK with that? That's what capping NIL earnings would essentially do to those fortunate few making a substantial NIL sum.
Nobody is paying these athletes less money than they now make, so poor analogy. Now if they went to Gazoo and said we are going to cap your salary where it is now, that might be similar.

By the way capping of salaries in business happens all the time. Sometimes the employee is told, but many times not.
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Old 05-18-2022, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Nobody is paying these athletes less money than they now make, so poor analogy. Now if they went to Gazoo and said we are going to cap your salary where it is now, that might be similar.

By the way capping of salaries in business happens all the time. Sometimes the employee is told, but many times not.
If youíre already making NIL money, as some are, and NIL earnings get capped as some have suggested, then you are taking a pay cut if you want to play.

As far as salaries being capped, is that done as some collusion among businesses? Like Iíd the NCAA or some other group tried to limit money earned? Iím not a lawyer, but that sounds like a court challenge to me. If youíre talking about what an individual business is willing to pay, thatís just what the business will pay. I donít know of any business that limits how much you can make at another job, which is what NIL capping would be.
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Old 05-18-2022, 11:25 AM
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Brad S, the flaw lies with you. I agree that there is a grave misunderstanding about non-profits. I can only assume youíre advancing your argument in jest. Surely, you have also been involved in establishing non-profits and sitting on non-profit boards. The answer becomes abundantly clear.
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Old 05-18-2022, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Nobody is paying these athletes less money than they now make, so poor analogy. Now if they went to Gazoo and said we are going to cap your salary where it is now, that might be similar.

By the way capping of salaries in business happens all the time. Sometimes the employee is told, but many times not.
This isn't about a business capping salaries, it is about a business (UD/NCAA) capping what you can make at another business wholly unrelated to the first business. It would be like your boss telling you that you can't take a second job or that you can only earn X from a second job. We have already addressed the fact that UD and the NCAA certainly have the right to restrict the use of their trademarks and image or to get paid for it if the kid is going to appear as "Dayton Flyer's Point Guard Mali Smith" in a UD uniform but from my perspective that is the only scenario where the school or the NCAA should have any say in the matter.
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Old 05-18-2022, 12:14 PM
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Flyers98, the decision needs to be pulled apart to determine what parameters were really set. The media does a poor job of understanding the limits of decisions and areas of future attack. I was going to finally read it yesterday and didnít have the time. Itís a must do today!
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Old 05-18-2022, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
I don’t know of any business that limits how much you can make at another job, which is what NIL capping would be.
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
This isn't about a business capping salaries, it is about a business (UD/NCAA) capping what you can make at another business wholly unrelated to the first business.
Are they "wholly unrelated"? The only reason someone wants to give you NIL money in the first place is because of what college you choose to play for.

I also am completely confused by NIL. Holmes making Lee's Chicken commercials is an actual job and worthy of payment. I don't get what these "collectives" are doing. It sounds like they are being setup just to pay you for going to a particular school and you don't have to do anything in return other than go to the school.

Plus, if they are "wholly unrelated", then why did the Wichita State AD get fired for not managing the NIL landscape? NIL seems to be very related and tied to the individual colleges.

And Ohio State is going to start paying players "academic" bonuses. Unrelated?

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Old 05-18-2022, 12:56 PM
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By wholly unrelated I mean that the school has no relationship (hopefully) with the 3rd party and is not involved in the NIL payments, negotiations, etc... If the school makes decisions in reaction to the NIL stuff that does not make them related, the NIL is a private negotiation between the player and the private business they contract with. The NIL stuff is a result of a Supreme Court Opinion based on that fact (as I recall and this may be an oversimplification) EA Sports was using player names and likenesses in their NCAA football and basketball games, and paying the NCAA and the schools for licensing but not the players. Think about how messed up that is for a second. The O'Bannon brothers from UCLA (that's how long this has been kicking around), sued and won on that. As a reaction to that I believe the NCAA relaxed its rules on the schools paying players.

We have already had the chicken and the egg discussion regarding the relative credit owed to UD for making the players famous or the players for making UD famous but the bottom line on this is that UD does not and cannot own anyone else's name, image and likeness, (unless they license it to UD), and the opposite is also true which is why UD is well within its rights to tell a kid you can't appear in a commercial or on a billboard in a UD uniform unless you pay us. There are some public relations considerations to be made there for sure and there is obviously some benefit to UD in having Deron in his uniform as opposed to a Nike shirt and a pair of Nike shorts that he could probably also get paid to wear.

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Old 05-18-2022, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
This isn't about a business capping salaries, it is about a business (UD/NCAA) capping what you can make at another business wholly unrelated to the first business. It would be like your boss telling you that you can't take a second job or that you can only earn X from a second job. We have already addressed the fact that UD and the NCAA certainly have the right to restrict the use of their trademarks and image or to get paid for it if the kid is going to appear as "Dayton Flyer's Point Guard Mali Smith" in a UD uniform but from my perspective that is the only scenario where the school or the NCAA should have any say in the matter.
Businesses all the time limit their employees from taking secondary jobs or consulting jobs.

The NCAA is an organization that has membership, and members agree to certain rules and restrictions. It is not Apple or Ford. So quit with the comparisons. The courts will have to decide how much restriction a school must adhere to, or their athletes.
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  #245  
Old 05-18-2022, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Brad S, the flaw lies with you. I agree that there is a grave misunderstanding about non-profits. I can only assume you’re advancing your argument in jest. Surely, you have also been involved in establishing non-profits and sitting on non-profit boards. The answer becomes abundantly clear.
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So, snarky and non-specific. Thanks.

Since it's abundantly clear and the flaw lies with me, I refer to my original question: Why should playing for (or being employed by) a non-profit in any way limit what you can earn?

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Old 05-18-2022, 03:12 PM
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Non-profits do not pay full market value for their talent. Non-profit CEOís are paid significantly less than CEOís of for profit companies. Not only are their salaries significantly less, they also donít get the benefit of stock shares and options. Do you really think their pay is comparable?
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:43 PM
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I don't dispute any of that. Are any np employees rule or policy limited in what they are allowed to make? Not what the pay scale is, what they are allowed to make from any employment. Say a np CEO also sits on another board -- is there a cap on said CEO compensation for that work?
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Old 05-18-2022, 04:03 PM
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My point relates to reasonable expectations when working or providing services to a non-profit. Itís not devaluing an athlete to provide education and an athletic opportunity to reap significant exposure. In regard to a NIL pay scale or earning caps, I predict a cogent argument being forwarded with the goal of protecting the game. I need to read the decision and see what jumps out. I do predict that NIL money will dry up as the sources experience tremendous waste. They will pull back on giving 7 digit deals to unmarketable, unknown 18 year old kids. Look at the endorsement deals of all NBA players. Bottom half guys arenít getting what these unproven products are. I pair that with an increased demand of exposure and marketing on college teams and the players. This will help foster the growth of the G League type opportunities. The end point is there will be some sort of institutional regulation and market correction/balance.
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Old 05-18-2022, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
My point relates to reasonable expectations when working or providing services to a non-profit. Itís not devaluing an athlete to provide education and an athletic opportunity to reap significant exposure. In regard to a NIL pay scale or earning caps, I predict a cogent argument being forwarded with the goal of protecting the game. I need to read the decision and see what jumps out. I do predict that NIL money will dry up as the sources experience tremendous waste. They will pull back on giving 7 digit deals to unmarketable, unknown 18 year old kids. Look at the endorsement deals of all NBA players. Bottom half guys arenít getting what these unproven products are. I pair that with an increased demand of exposure and marketing on college teams and the players. This will help foster the growth of the G League type opportunities. The end point is there will be some sort of institutional regulation and market correction/balance.
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UD is not the "traditional" NFP nor is any other school that charges $60K to attend. Sort of like a hospital, they are all NFP, and they all have $100M foundations/endowments. I don't know that colleges and universities are providing a public service the same way a homeless shelter or the Red Cross is. I love UD but I don't feel the same way about them as I do other NFPs. I wouldn't expect a true charitable organization to pay competitive executive compensation but I would expect an organization like the NCAA or UD (to a much smaller extent), to be fair to the people who are driving their revenue.

I agree with the rest of your post as to the leveling of the NIL craziness and people with money eventually regaining their sanity.
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:30 PM
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Posted without comment . . .

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Old 05-20-2022, 07:42 AM
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Flyer98, as to schools being NFPsÖIíve long believed that college Presidents chief responsibility is fund raising. Education and reputation are important but are couched in terms that benefit fundraising. School branding becomes critical. Miami has done an incredible job with its branding. Branding creates pride, and pride equals money! Case Western, Oberlin, and Denison are much, much smaller than UD but their endowments are significantly larger. Part of what they sell is exclusivity. People love to payÖor giveÖto have something exclusive. At bottom, is this that different from other NFPs? Arenít over NFP Presidents or CEOs charged with fund raising? Years ago, I sat on a board of a NFP. We had a significant endowment. Plenty of resources. Still, we spent far more time discussing fundraising than serving our purpose. Understand, we hired exceptional people to run day to day activities. We came out of our Ivory Tower on occasion and met with people using our service. Still, fundraising was omnipresent.
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Old 05-20-2022, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Posted without comment . . .

https://youtu.be/0oxZKXBvbOI
Interesting. Thanks for posting
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Old 05-20-2022, 09:39 AM
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I am watching the Third Hour on NBC right now. Coming up will be a food portion, and the preview shows a guy with a UD Cross Country shirt. Go Flyers!
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Posted without comment . . .

https://youtu.be/0oxZKXBvbOI
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Old 05-20-2022, 03:53 PM
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Of course the Alabama's and Duke's do not have to pay players. Kids want to go there. Great schools and great chance of going pro. It is the TX, AR and Maryland's that want to compete and now can. The system is a mess.
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Old 05-20-2022, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Posted without comment . . .

https://youtu.be/0oxZKXBvbOI
Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Response posted without comment . . .

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Let's complete the circle with professional UD analysis . . . sort of . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9oXQSS6w5k
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Old 05-20-2022, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Of course the Alabama's and Duke's do not have to pay players. Kids want to go there. Great schools and great chance of going pro. It is the TX, AR and Maryland's that want to compete and now can. The system is a mess.
I have always liked Deion Sanders but even more now. As he said, he has been on both sides of this, I trust his perspective. The irony of Nick Saban calling Jimbo out is is that Jimbo knows exactly what Saban does, did, etc... he was part of it.

Bottom line, I would bet my house that Nick Saban is not clean, (which is to say that I don't know but I suspect, in case his lawyer in on this board). Duke doesn't need to pay players? The FBI report, Zion Williamson, man people have short memories. I don't feel bad for any of these guys they have all participated in this stuff, or at best turned a blind eye to what third parties have done and made millions in salaries by always having the best players. Now the playing field is (theoretically) level. Let's see what happens...
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