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View Poll Results: Did UD verify Bobby Knight's claim that 90% of games are lost?
Yes, UD 'lost' the game with poor offense and rebounding, etc... 52 56.52%
No, Wichita State 'won' the game with execution against an (almost) equal UD squad 40 43.48%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 03-18-2017, 10:51 AM
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Did we lose the game? or did Wichita St win it?

As I stated in an earlier post, Bobby Knight says 90% of games are lost, not won.

So let's apply that to last night's NCAAT game vs WSU.

Is the General right?

I say.....
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:54 AM
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I would say WSU 90% won the game and we 10% lost the game. They are definitely a very good team but we had our chances. How's that for an answer???
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I would say WSU 90% won the game and we 10% lost the game. They are definitely a very good team but we had our chances. How's that for an answer???
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:08 PM
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We lost it more than we got beat IMO.

We played with great intensity and effort though and did some great things. But, we came up short.

But, WSU did play well. No disrespect to them, they did what they needed to do.

This one will sting for a while.

Last edited by ud2; 03-18-2017 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I would say WSU 90% won the game and we 10% lost the game. They are definitely a very good team but we had our chances. How's that for an answer???
I think WSU is a very, very good team; so much so that I think UK is in serious trouble Sunday. I say UD lost it to no disrespect to WSU as they obviously did the right things down the stretch. But a few UD players had really poor shooting from 3 land - in a couple of cases literally wide open 3's that normally go in. I don't think fatigue was a factor, maybe just being on the national stage. But, these guys are always students first and athletes second and not professionals so I can't nitpick this. It is what it is, a bad shooting performance and at this stage of the season, generally it kills you. I thought UD played a defensive game that normally results in a "W"; just not this time. Even Kenny Smith made a comment to that point in the post game, almost shaking his head while (sic) "not sure how UD lost this game". I look forward to hopefully some home and home against WSU; I think both teams benefit from it. I hope WSU beats UK, I think they are the better team. We'll know Sunday.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:17 PM
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WSU played tough defense. Some of the shots that Cooke and Pollard took would have been difficult for LeBron James to have made.
That being said, Williams airballed a couple of what looked to be open 3's. After the under 8 timeout, Archie had Miller, Mikesell, Crosby, Cooke, & Davis on the floor. I believe they went from being even to down 6 in a flash, and never recovered.
Guess it's 50/50.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:56 PM
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Why I lean toward we 'lost' the game.

3 times we had WSU in trouble - under 3 seconds - with the shot clock. Once we split out high defensively and their big man simply turned and drove in for a dunk. Two other times we fouled them. You have to know better!

Giving up the offensive rebound on a missed FT late in the first half was inexcusable. Our low post rebounders never put their arms up so they had no chance to grab a quick bounce off the rim, which is what happened.

I believe I counted 5 layups that were left short. Just as a putt in golf can't go in if it's short, a layup can't go in if the ball doesn't get 10' in the air.

For those reasons, I believe we handed the game to WSU.

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Old 03-18-2017, 01:04 PM
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Don't disagree with rollo too much but because defense and rebounding are as much effort as anything else and WS was better at both I go with they won.
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:09 PM
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Enough already.

UD played a very good game against a very good team. Everyone bashing Cooke needs to remember, he's our leading scorer--don't you think a very good team is going to set up their defense to key on that guy? We have not been a great rebounding team--is it any surprise that a bigger team like WSU manhandled us on the boards? WSU took away most of our interior presence. Still, we were in it to the end. WSU just executed better in the final minutes and denied us a comeback.

This team gave us 24 wins and an A-10 regular season title this year. These seniors gave us 102 wins, the program's third Elite 8, and five total NCAA victories over their four years. Last night they gave everything they had and came up just a few points short to an exceptional and underseeded team. This wasn't the flame out of last year's NCAA trip. Don't diminish their accomplishments by over-ruminating the shoulda-coulda-wouldas.
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  #10  
Old 03-18-2017, 01:39 PM
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Clearly without dispute, Dayton lost the game. Substantial basketball programs throw/pass into the post to run the offense and for triangulation against the opposition defense. The UD program lacks that as a priority. If continued, the Flyers will become the perpetual one and done NCAA program. If that is sufficient, so beit; if not, address the issue. Don't go so "all purpose atleticisez" and thus largely forget about being a basketball player, and running basic basketball concepts.

Sam Miller did his job last night, or at-least as much as could be expected from a coaching staff who obviously doesn't relate to the inside-out mentality, and decided to throw both him and Mikesell under the bus the back half of the season. If we yanked players from the rotation every time they missed a shot, or their man scored a basket, there wouldn't be anyone left in the lineup, Scooch and KD not-withstanding, but everybody else would be permanently benched.

A growing and constant theme in UD basketball is a constant ignoring of the need for post passes to be made. You cannot and will not be successful at the NCAA Tournament level without it.

Yes Dayton can win the A10 like that, but they won't be Penetrating the NCAA'S that way. Definitely Dayton Flyers lost the game.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:05 PM
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We lost this game, plain and simple. Even as poor as we shot the ball, if we rebound, we win. You cannot get rebounded basically 2 - 1. We had them defensively, lots of turnovers, kept them from hitting many threes. But they got way too many second chance points. Rebounding is about will. It's about desire. It's about heart. You have to want to rebound, put a body on your man, and take what's yours. And we didn't do it. And not only that, but when you watch Dayton shoot, we rarely have more than 1 person under the basket for a rebound attempt and often have no one. WSU had multiple players there for rebounds.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:10 PM
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Dayton did not lose the possession game. Dayton was +7 possessions (-3 offensive boards and +10 turnovers). I would have guessed going in bigger disparity with offensive boards and closer turnover differential resulting in Wichita State being + in possessions.

Dayton only gave up 1 point per possession to a team that scored 1.191 points per possession.

The Flyers lost by poor offense and most was self-inflicted although the Shockers defense was good. Dayton only scored .91 points per possession while the Flyers have been averaging 1.12. Kendall and Scoochie were 9-18 from 2 point field goals. Rest of team was 2-18. Rest of team shoots 6--18 or an abyssal 33% from 2 and Dayton wins. Cooke and X were 2-19 for the game with a ton of wide open looks. It happens.

Also got unlucky with 3 at end of half and some questionable calls on Kyle.

I actually now think we beat them 50% of the time on a neutral court.

Sorry for typos, writing from my phone on flight back to California -- was hoping to fly back Monday.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:18 PM
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This is where I think predictive measures are funny. Their KenPom numbers show them to be very good on both ends of the floor which relates to them having a 78% chance to beat us. Does anyone think that if we played 10 times they would beat us almost 8 of the 10? I certainly don't. So while the numbers may have some validity as to how efficient you are offensively and defensively I'm not sure it translate to whether a team should actually win the game.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
This is where I think predictive measures are funny. Their KenPom numbers show them to be very good on both ends of the floor which relates to them having a 78% chance to beat us. Does anyone think that if we played 10 times they would beat us almost 8 of the 10? I certainly don't. So while the numbers may have some validity as to how efficient you are offensively and defensively I'm not sure it translate to whether a team should actually win the game.
Believe we are .500 against the Shockers. Lost last night and beat them is '62 on out way to our first NIT win, which was a big deal back in the day.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:35 PM
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Key point in the game

Originally Posted by kiefaber455 View Post
WSU played tough defense. Some of the shots that Cooke and Pollard took would have been difficult for LeBron James to have made.
That being said, Williams airballed a couple of what looked to be open 3's. After the under 8 timeout, Archie had Miller, Mikesell, Crosby, Cooke, & Davis on the floor. I believe they went from being even to down 6 in a flash, and never recovered.
Guess it's 50/50.
I agree that the under 8 timeout was a key point of the game. Archie stole minutes in the first half with this lineup but we went from a tie game to behind that we never recovered. Another key point of the game was at the end of the first half, UD up by 5 with the ball with 40 seconds left. UD is horrible all year holding the ball to drain the clock and trying to get a decent shot. Yesterday, we shoot a difficult 3, WSU get the rebound and goes down and hits a 3 to run into the lockerroom with momentum and being down 2.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:40 PM
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In my opinion, the way UD played last night, the only 8,9,10 seed that was able to beat them was Wichita State.

Give credit to Wichita State. They won the game by exploiting the biggest Achilles heel of UD. Height and rebounding. WSU blocked 8 shots and won the rebounding number by a wide margin.

UD's post play this year was weak because the players were either undersized or weak. Kendall is undersized. The other inside players are weak. Josh was nowhere close to 100% after returning from injury. He was not the pre injury Josh.

Despite that weakness, UD won the A10.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:03 PM
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Totally agree Season Ticket. We lost because too undersized which leads to poor rebounding and no low-post offensive or 2nd chance points. Bc of these deficiencies, we can't win games with 2 starters really off and little bench production.

We need to get back to a team with a makeup the Elite 8 team had: legit big men with size. A healthy Cunningham, Freshman Pierce, and a 6'10" guard will proved much more length and rebounding.

Imagine a lineup next year with 6'2" athletic Crosby, 6'5" DD, 6'10"+ Kostas, 6'8" X man, & 6'7" Cunningham. Lot of length and athleticism there...

Will be interested to see who ends up pleasantly surprising us all next year. My best guess is McKinley Wright at PG and Svoboda as 3 point specialist. Hopefully Mikesell doesn't get lost in the shuffle and continues to improve his body both bulk and quickness
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:20 PM
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C: All of the above and the broken whistle from the 5 minute mark to the 1 minute mark at our end of the court. Worked fine at the opposite end.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:52 PM
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Rollo - thanks for posting but I think I'm taking a vacation from the pain. What's the sense?

Archie needs to reflect on this season with his coaches, current players and of course his management. I think I need to reflect on the benefit of investing all of this time and energy into a silly sport. Fortunately/unfortunately amnesia sets in when I start thinking about next year.

For the near future, it's too painful with no real personal benefit. Maybe a week or 2 will refresh me (and I suspect) many others.

Thanks for keeping the torch burning. Good job!
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:08 PM
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That is really the whole deal in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post

Give credit to Wichita State. They won the game by exploiting the biggest Achilles heel of UD. Height and rebounding.

Despite that weakness, UD won the A10.
Losing momentum after Icing league title did not help as well.

UK would have once again exposed us.

Already looking forward to next season.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Believe we are .500 against the Shockers. Lost last night and beat them is '62 on out way to our first NIT win, which was a big deal back in the day.
I barely remember that game...I was only about 10 months old...
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UDTradition View Post
Rollo - thanks for posting but I think I'm taking a vacation from the pain. What's the sense?

Archie needs to reflect on this season with his coaches, current players and of course his management. I think I need to reflect on the benefit of investing all of this time and energy into a silly sport. Fortunately/unfortunately amnesia sets in when I start thinking about next year.

For the near future, it's too painful with no real personal benefit. Maybe a week or 2 will refresh me (and I suspect) many others.

Thanks for keeping the torch burning. Good job!
You know soon enough...you'll be checking back in to see what the off-season scuttle is about. I agree though, I have invested a TON of energy into this program the last 50 years and every year I say, "I've had enough; this dominates my winter to early spring every year and I get nothing done and spend way too much time on this forum. I think I'm done for a while too. See you next week...
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:15 PM
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this is a great poll and a joke at the same time. When your 5th year senior that threw his name into the ring as an NBA player spends 35 minutes driving the lane and goes 0 for, when if he makes 1/3 of them you win, you lost the game yourself, you weren't beat.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
this is a great poll and a joke at the same time. When your 5th year senior that threw his name into the ring as an NBA player spends 35 minutes driving the lane and goes 0 for, when if he makes 1/3 of them you win, you lost the game yourself, you weren't beat.
How many more threads are you going to rip Cooke in? I count 5 in the last 24 hours, and I am probably missing some. We get it, you don't like him. Give it a rest. I highly suggest taking a break from UDPride for awhile. You obviously need some time to re-evaluate things.

EDIT:

Your last 11 post have been ripping the guy. Move on!

http://udpride.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1785003

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Old 03-19-2017, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
How many more threads are you going to rip Cooke in? I count 5 in the last 24 hours, and I am probably missing some. We get it, you don't like him. Give it a rest. I highly suggest taking a break from UDPride for awhile. You obviously need some time to re-evaluate things.

EDIT:

Your last 11 post have been ripping the guy. Move on!

http://udpride.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1785003
He cost the Flyers 2 years in a row. There's nobody else to blame, if he does even a half a ssed job we win. Are we supposed to pretend it didn't happen this way?

But I bow to your opinion because there's no way we will lose to GW. Folks when you're right 99 percent of the time and people continue to present alternate facts, you have to stand up for yourself.

But picking on Darrell Davis, that's acceptable, so was picking on Miller and Crosby, but lord have mercy when you call out the anointed never-was-never-will be. Man you people don't live in reality.

By the way, one of my last eleven posts was agreeing that Sibert would be a great addition to this team, no mention of Charles Choke. But because you know the truth, you took that as an insult the choke artist.

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Old 03-19-2017, 03:51 AM
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There's a reason UD had the worst shooting performance of the season (.310%) and the worst rebounding performance of the season (-19) in the same game. Wichita State had a lot to do with it.

I would lean toward Dayton have a larger hand in losing had we done things we were not accustomed to doing. However we were a poor finishing team around the rim all season and a poor rebounding team all season. The loss to the Shockers was basically who we were. You had some very good strengths but also some glaring team weaknesses and you cant put lipstick on those weaknesses and pretend they werent there.

It should not have been any "shock" that we were bludgeoned on the boards and missed a ton of chippies. That's pretty typical for us and we had to devise a plan to win in spite of it because there have been few times this year where we both outrebounded teams and finished with aplomb directly at the basket.

At this point in the season you are what you are. Wichita was a better version of themselves than we were and the better team advanced. They have fewer holes and crutches they must hide on a game-to-game basis. Their defense and rebounding -- which were much better even before the game -- were underscored in the game itself. There really weren't many surprises in this one, other than Scoochie's big-time individual performance. No one could expect that.

If you grade the teams out, WSU has a better defense, better rebounding, more depth, more interchangeable parts, shoots FTs better on average, and has prototypical post players you can throw the ball into that have size and strength with their back to the basket. We basically play with 6-5 Kendall Pollard as our five-man.

We got as far as our talent would take us. To beat WSU we'd have to have done something decidedly un-typical in the last month of play. WSU was playing in top form and we were playing our most lethargic basketball in 2 months.

To UD's credit, I thought we played exceptionally hard. Can't fault the effort like GW and Davidson and the VCU rebounding debacle. But WSU gives out scholarships too and their guys were a little more polished across the board than ours.

Finishing at the rim is a skill. Rebounding is a skill. If you consistently struggle at it, chances are its not simply a concentration issue, its a legitimate skill deficiency and practice may or may not make you considerably better at it. At some point DNA caps your ceiling.

We were also playing without Big Steve, a Josh at about 30% and a Kendall at about 60%. Kendall has lost 12 inches on his vertical since early last year. Josh can hardly jump at all. Our 7-foot enforcer/shot-blocker is resting forever. Archie had a plan to address some of these shortcomings. Unfortunately circumstances beyond his control made that more difficult than we all would have liked. I can't hold the staff responsible for things like this. They are in charge, but some things they simply cannot foresee. To get as far as we did and win as many games as we did is in spite of our shortcomings, not in lieu of any underachievement.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
There's a reason UD had the worst shooting performance of the season (.310%) and the worst rebounding performance of the season (-19) in the same game. Wichita State had a lot to do with it.

I would lean toward Dayton have a larger hand in losing had we done things we were not accustomed to doing. However we were a poor finishing team around the rim all season and a poor rebounding team all season. The loss to the Shockers was basically who we were. You had some very good strengths but also some glaring team weaknesses and you cant put lipstick on those weaknesses and pretend they werent there.

It should not have been any "shock" that we were bludgeoned on the boards and missed a ton of chippies. That's pretty typical for us and we had to devise a plan to win in spite of it because there have been few times this year where we both outrebounded teams and finished with aplomb directly at the basket.

At this point in the season you are what you are. Wichita was a better version of themselves than we were and the better team advanced. They have fewer holes and crutches they must hide on a game-to-game basis. Their defense and rebounding -- which were much better even before the game -- were underscored in the game itself. There really weren't many surprises in this one, other than Scoochie's big-time individual performance. No one could expect that.

If you grade the teams out, WSU has a better defense, better rebounding, more depth, more interchangeable parts, shoots FTs better on average, and has prototypical post players you can throw the ball into that have size and strength with their back to the basket. We basically play with 6-5 Kendall Pollard as our five-man.

We got as far as our talent would take us. To beat WSU we'd have to have done something decidedly un-typical in the last month of play. WSU was playing in top form and we were playing our most lethargic basketball in 2 months.

To UD's credit, I thought we played exceptionally hard. Can't fault the effort like GW and Davidson and the VCU rebounding debacle. But WSU gives out scholarships too and their guys were a little more polished across the board than ours.

Finishing at the rim is a skill. Rebounding is a skill. If you consistently struggle at it, chances are its not simply a concentration issue, its a legitimate skill deficiency and practice may or may not make you considerably better at it. At some point DNA caps your ceiling.

We were also playing without Big Steve, a Josh at about 30% and a Kendall at about 60%. Kendall has lost 12 inches on his vertical since early last year. Josh can hardly jump at all. Our 7-foot enforcer/shot-blocker is resting forever. Archie had a plan to address some of these shortcomings. Unfortunately circumstances beyond his control made that more difficult than we all would have liked. I can't hold the staff responsible for things like this. They are in charge, but some things they simply cannot foresee. To get as far as we did and win as many games as we did is in spite of our shortcomings, not in lieu of any underachievement.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Dayton had them buy their coconuts and the Cooke shoots some one handed, underhanded scoop shot with his back to the basket with 6 seconds on the shot clock. Somehow WSU found a way to keep Scoochie away from the ball. NO THEY DIDN'T, the selfishness of Cooke and Pollard raised it's ugly head, once again, and the desperation, off balance shots began to take place. All when it was still a 3 point game. Man, somebody, anybody, please, some reality here, all UD needed to do was stay within offense we started seeing back in February of 2014 and we sail to victory.

Yep, put all the lipstick you want on this pig, but it was the Flyers game to win or lose, WSU just held their serve and waited on the Flyers to self-destruct.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Dayton had them buy their coconuts and the Cooke shoots some one handed, underhanded scoop shot with his back to the basket with 6 seconds on the shot clock. Somehow WSU found a way to keep Scoochie away from the ball. NO THEY DIDN'T, the selfishness of Cooke and Pollard raised it's ugly head, once again, and the desperation, off balance shots began to take place. All when it was still a 3 point game. Man, somebody, anybody, please, some reality here, all UD needed to do was stay within offense we started seeing back in February of 2014 and we sail to victory.

Yep, put all the lipstick you want on this pig, but it was the Flyers game to win or lose, WSU just held their serve and waited on the Flyers to self-destruct.
Yet three weeks ago, you were ready to put the entire 2016-2017 roster into the UD HOF??!!

Too soon? All kidding aside, what Archie and the boys have been able to accomplish over the last four years is quite remarkable, especially considering all the adversity they have endured.
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  #29  
Old 03-19-2017, 07:49 AM
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I think Chris has an extremely accurate assessment of the weaknesses of the team.

On Friday, Cooke took 10 shots. That is not a high number for a the usual leading scorer of a team. Most were good shots. Some did not fall. Other were blocked. A couple were bad shots. (Every player takes bad shots).

Look at the UD offensive skill set. Kyle is not productive in the half court offense. Most of his points comes from fast break layups and an occasional 3. He was tentative as a 3 point shooter (even though his numbers were not bad). Teams left him open often. He made up for his lack of offense with heart and defense.

Kendall is a very undersized center in the UD offense. He drive the basket like a freight train. (Sometimes out of control, often with good results). In the post, he gives up size. When he steps to the 3 point line, teams ignore him. At UD arena, fans would gasp when he thought about shooting a 3.

2 players with limited outside threat. Offense has challenges.

Cooke can shoot a 3 and drive to the basket. He can't post up due to size. Cooke could also dish a lot when he drives. (2nd on the team in assists.) Wichita State played in his face on the perimeter and dared him to drive. When he did, they used their height to block shots and close his passing lanes last minute. A lot like how Big Steve blocked shots. Smart defensive game plan by Wichita State.

Z has a great 3 point shot, but has not developed a post game (or strength for post game) and ability to drive to basket. His air balls hurt on Friday. He had a tendency to shoot a 3 very early in the shot clock.

Scoochie played the half of his life in the first half, but the majority of the shots were one on one. Wichita State adjusted in the second half.

DD seems to have lost his shot and lacks upper body strength to finish at the rim.

The shot clock in college basketball forces some one on one play. Not every basket can be from an assist. This team had a high number of assists on offense; even Cooke. They did a lot with the tools they had.


Despite all of the weaknesses, undersized limits on offensive skills, the team goes 24-8 and 15-3. BTW. I checked and no Sibert team won the A10 or regular season. He was a great player!! Still this team accomplished something unique in A10 play.

Their heart on D Friday was amazing. Brown was 3-3 from long range. The rest of the team, 3-17!

UD was a bunch of over achievers. Amazing group!
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  #30  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
He cost the Flyers 2 years in a row. There's nobody else to blame, if he does even a half a ssed job we win. Are we supposed to pretend it didn't happen this way?

But I bow to your opinion because there's no way we will lose to GW. Folks when you're right 99 percent of the time and people continue to present alternate facts, you have to stand up for yourself.

But picking on Darrell Davis, that's acceptable, so was picking on Miller and Crosby, but lord have mercy when you call out the anointed never-was-never-will be. Man you people don't live in reality.

By the way, one of my last eleven posts was agreeing that Sibert would be a great addition to this team, no mention of Charles Choke. But because you know the truth, you took that as an insult the choke artist.
1 player did not cost us anything. Each game we lost more than 1 player didn't show up or had off games. As some said above, Cooke only took a few bad shots. Help side defense for WSU did their job and blocked a couple, he had at least 3 shots that were halfway down and out. All of our seniors have had games that cost us this year. But go ahead and stay in your tunnel vision, because I do not see you being correct 99% of the time.

I never said there was no way we lose to GW, because I never believe in 100% lock to win a game. I did say I wasn't worried about their height and didn't believe in a curse. And from a height stand point, we didn't lose because of their height. We lost because nobody on the team wanted to play the first 30 minutes of that game.

I do not pick on DD, Crosby, or Miller, and am usually 1 of the first to jump in and defend them. The only guy I have had a real negative opinion on is Mikesell. But the worst I have said is that I do not see him being the great player that people here do. But I have also given him props when he did well.

Sorry 10 out of 11. That doesn't make things any better.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:38 AM
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I thought this game ended up being a sort of catch 22 for the Flyers. We had to play a very high level of D to keep this game within striking distance, which we did very well. But as a result we took WSU very deep into the shot clock on most possessions and really created a slow half court grind-it-out style game forcing us to play a half court offensive game. As we all know we are best offensively when we are getting out on the run and scoring either on the break or in the secondary break. But had the game been played at a faster pace we probably would have scored more points but probably not been able to keep up with WSU. I think Archie had said going into the game that he wanted to have a chance going into the last four minutes of the game, which we did accomplish, and WSU just outperformed us to end the game.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:46 AM
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If you watch some of these other teams playing now you will see the difference, it is talent, but also the size and mass of these guys. We can say Kyle is tough and Kendall is tough, but they are undersized. All our sophomores are undersized, and I don't mean height. AZ is huge, as is X, Iowa St, NC, Ky, Duke, OR, etc. We have great guys to compete in the A10, but that is it for now. Not sure there is a finesse team left in the tourney.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
If you watch some of these other teams playing now you will see the difference, it is talent, but also the size and mass of these guys. We can say Kyle is tough and Kendall is tough, but they are undersized. All our sophomores are undersized, and I don't mean height. AZ is huge, as is X, Iowa St, NC, Ky, Duke, OR, etc. We have great guys to compete in the A10, but that is it for now. Not sure there is a finesse team left in the tourney.
I had said this before: there is a very clear difference in talent, height/weight, speed/quickness, etc. between the A10 and BE.

But, Archie makes the most of what he has.

There is nothing UD can do about being in the A10, other than to try to be the next Gonzaga. And that is a longer-term process.

But, it is possible to become the next Gonzaga. Wichita State is well on their way to becoming the next Gonzaga.

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Old 03-19-2017, 12:51 PM
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Just watching the game on TV (was there live). Archie is going to watch the tape and be even more upset, this game is totally winnable.

1H observations in real-time watching.

(1) Pollard's first foul posting up was totally bogus. Posting with right arm and had left arm up and Wichita State guy slaps it down and foul on Pollard?!? Second foul with 11 minutes left spot-on, easy charge call (great pass by Pollard here to Mikesell, just jump stop and 2 points for Mikesell and no foul).

(2) Cooke gave up 8 of the first 10 points, horrific defense overall.
(a) beat for a 3 (first points of game) when he did not see man/ball, lazy defense. Archie went crazy as just terrible defense and I am sure this was play they prepared for.
(b) helping on defense and a step off where his man beat him for an and 1. Should have recovered better here and Cunningham slow to step-in weak side.
(c) does not box out, falls asleep weak-side and guy dunks on offensive rebound.

(3) DD misses lay-up as goes up soft and floats, he if he drives into the guy, gets 2 foul shots worst case. Needs to create contact as guy would definitely get a charge. Does it a second time as well, yikes. Crosby same thing. Need to attack left shoulder of defender when shooting a right-handed lay-up. DD and Crosby fall-away so 0-3, sigh.

(4) X playing really good defense, especially on the traps.

(5) Pollard 5 of first 13 points, 2nd foul really kills Dayton's offense.

(6) 7 of first 13 points (through 12 minutes to go) by Pollard and Cunningham in the paint/foul shots. Did we go away from this or defensive adjustments?

(7) Mikesell and Cunningham played well, why didn't they get more minutes?

(8) Alley-Oop was a goal-tend, ball on rim when he touches it. Whole Dayton bunch notices as they had great view.

(9) Cooke 3 with 10:17 left in 1H, went in and out, ugh, the story of his night. But also going up soft on some of the lay-ups. Cooke also taking momentum dribble often instead of going into triple threat position immediately.

(10) Sam Miller boxing-out and playing well actually. Crosby played well too with a good pass to X.

(11) Kyle not even looking for his shot or to drive, would have liked to see Kyle more aggressive offensively.

(12) Cooke not even looking at the bucket on some of his drives and shots. Literally throwing the ball up there, wonder if he was sick or something. Kyle yelling at Cooke to pass it on his drives as 3 open 3 point shooters.

(13) Fronting the post because we lack size sets-up offensive rebounding for the Shockers as in better position for rebound.

(14) Kyle playing amazing defense, team is really playing like that If we had this defensive intensity every game, we win 2 or 3 more games.

(15) Mikesell offensive rebounding foul with about 5:30 left totally bogus. Good position and guy backs up into his legs undercutting him. He went up for it and in good position.

(16) Refs missed so many travel calls on Wichita State, thought this was a point of emphasis. Archie going crazy with 4:32 to go when guy slides his pivot. 32 traveled again with 3:34 left.

(17) Shot clock operator 3 mistakes, seriously? Reset clock 2x when did not hit the rim.

(18) Sam was so close (barely off) on two additional 3s in the 1H, really good looks. Overall Dayton's looks for 3 were uncontested whereas Wichita States were mostly contested in the 1H.

(19) I am sorry Rollo, but terrible anticipation calls. 3:23 and small gray haired ref blocked by bodies and call reach on Scoochie where did not touch the ball. Was his call, but he is guessing. No way he sees it and results in 2 points. Rather see refs miss calls than guess.

(20) Scoochie did not get fouled with 2:54 left in 1H, slipped. Dayton got bailed-out here.

(21) That 3 at the end of the half, ugh, makes that 5% of the time. Really big shot and so lucky.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:31 PM
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I'd love to watch a game play-by-play and break things down but I sadly don't have time...but I do want to address #8.

You can only goaltend a shot. I'm assuming this was a pass you mentioned, and if that is factual then by definition there can't be goaltending.


Basketball rules are nuts. There is so much that goes on at a speed that is so fast and a level so far above the rim that expecting split-second perfection is nuts. But 99% of calls I believe are correct. The above-average knowledgable fan might talk a good game, but outside the obvious and easy calls, they really have no idea what they are talking about. I could write a case study about the loudmouth idiot dad at the AAU tournament game I reffed this morning who loudly questioned 90% of the calls me and my partner made this morning...and BTW, my pattern is an OHSAA HOF referee who obviously knows WTF he's calling.

As for the NWern 'goaltend' no-call....I contend - despite the NCAA's comments - that it's NOT a goaltend! Why? At least in high school bball, it's a violation to reach thru the basket and since you make calls as they happen, the violation of reaching thru the rim happened first, then a split second later the defender blocked the shot...so IMRO I say 'violation, NWern ball...spot throw-in'.

I say this without reading the NCAA rulebook which I have at my office. Tomorrow I'll look it up.

I must be off...reffed 5 games this morning and because of a (qualified and competent) ref shortage I have 2 more...long day...

So all you know-it-alls (not you ruechalgrin)...this is your chance to make some money and test your knowledge of hoops! Take the ref class...don the stripes and make some money while getting great exercise. Bring your balls...you'll need them.

Good luck!
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:35 PM
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Someone commented that we seem to have reached a position in the program where fans are not happy JUST to make the NCAAt. We expect to win one or more and have a run against competition.

Last 2 years have ended undesirably .... also this same team has not finished well at the end of the regular season and 1st game in tourney. This year 2 straight losses and last year we went 4 of last 8 games.

Not suppose to end the season with losses and expect something much better in the Tourney against great opposition ... magical yes if it occurs, realistic not so much.

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Halftime

Lot of love for Archie and the Dayton program from Charles, Kenny, and Clark. Impressive they think so highly not only of Archie, but Kellogg emphasized small school but big-time program.

UGH, hate the graphic 53-2 when leading at half since 2014. 2nd in nation behind Oregon. Sigh.

2H:

(1) 19:21 In and out again for Cooke for floater, it was down, sigh. Nance said it was "half-way down."

(2) Cooke soft on offensive rebound over him with 19:02 to play, had box-out, but stopped and didn't go after ball. Guy boxing out did and get rebound and fouled.

(3) Pollard's dunk with 18:38, wow even better on TV then in person.

(4) All of Dayton's 3 attempts are really wide-open. Should have been better than 7-22 as the 3s were not contested. Perhaps because team tired.

(5) 17:24, really surprised Shaq Morris does not get foul on offensive rebound and bucket. 99% of time refs call he when swims over Pollard and pulls him to the floor. Bald ref no call and he was in position, short white haired ref and dark-haired ref both would have 100% called this if they were in position.

(6) X played really good defense and rebounded well (including boxing out). I can live with his and Cooke's misses offensively it happens. Cooke's effort on defense was weak, that is what I don't like. I really think he had to be sick or nerves or something. He falls asleep on defense sometimes in games, but this was the most frequent lapses of any game I have seen him play in 2 years. Not blaming him for the loss as win as a team and lose as a team, just surprised at the lack of attention to the little things. Also anyone else steps up offensively and this is a win.

(7) Scoochie dumb illegal screen with 16:01 left, he did it.

(8) How many airballs from Wichita State led to foul shots or easy put backs. Great defense and the bounce of the ball was unlucky. Kyle shuts down Frankamp again with 14:55 for an airball that goes into a Wichita State big man's hands for a lay-up. Great defense and so unlucky here. This happened for 6-8 points in the game, really unlucky.

(9) bald ref called Pollard for offensive rebounding foul with 14:35 left, I am now really perplexed. Same play on other end with Shaq Morris when he did swim move over Pollard. This is so inconsistent. I cannot believe these refs will be advancing to final 32, him in particular. I am baffled. Almost exact same play. They get 2 points and Dayton gets Pollard's 3rd foul??!!??!?!?!? And same ref in position. Would have guessed before replay different refs so slightly different emphasis. This is really bad. I am totally perplexed.

(10) Kyle wide open 3 possibility with 14:06 in game right in front of Archie. 24 seconds left on shot-clock, but would like Kyle to take this. Shooting .397 for the year from 3. Take this shot!!! Results in Scoochie made 3 so does not impact score.

(11) UD Crowd is loud.

(12) Ball unambiguously off Wichita State with 13:21 left but ball awarded to Wichita State. How does dark hair ref miss this one. Right where he should be looking and very easy call. This costs Dayton as possession and chance to go up 40/41 to 35. Sigh. Wichita State hits 3 so BIG MOMENTUM SHIFT.

(13) Cooke falling away on 3 with 11:29 to go instead of straight up and misses short. No reason to fall away and just inches short.

(14) Like how Archie puts the sugar press in a couple times.

(15) Terrible call agin with 11:03 to go. White hair ref calls foul when screen by bodies so again total anticipation call when baseline line ref calls travel. No way can see a foul from his angel. This is 2nd/3rd time white hair ref anticipated foul where screened from players and 0% chance could have seen anything and makes call against Dayton. Just shocked on this one. BTW, X did not foul him the way they were calling this game (if he fouled him, just about every drive by Cooke would have resulted in a foul). Wichita 3 in and out so no harm.

(16) Yep, good offensive foul call on Cooke. Defender flopped, but Cooke led with arm. Sigh. Driving left, Cooke needs to go after defenders right shoulder, but went right through the middle of his body.

(17) OMG, Cooked good defensive rebounding positing with 9:53 to go and gets foul on box-out. Bald ref again. He literally has called every offensive/defensive rebounding foul on both sides of the court against Dayton. So inconsistent. Cooke gave great effort on box-out here. Resulted in no points, but hastens 1:1 FT for Wichita State which hurts Dayton later.

(18) 2 on Wichita State carried the ball on every single cross-over. Point of emphasis and 9:13 left the most egregious of the game. Bad defense on offensive put back after block. Again unlucky bounce of the ball on blocked shot. Mikesell does not play defense on rebound here, sigh. Stays with guy who dunks and shot clock violation. Killer 2 points.

(19) Cooke, please go up strong, 1:1 with Frankamp and does under-handed lay-up. Goes strong and could get the and 1. Instead 1 FT made. Should have got 2 more points.

(20) Do not see the offensive foul on #20 versus Sam, bald ref again makes the call, this is really weak with 8:17 to go, gift to the Flyers.

(21) Cooke weak soft lay-up again with 8:02 to grand 18 seconds on shot clock, pull it back out rather than wild lay-up. Mikesell had rebound and went right through hands, again really unlucky.

(22) Travel with 7:51 on Wichita State fiction, he did not move pivot. They miss a bunch of travel calls and call this?!?!? Another gift to the Flyers.

(23) Think Archie makes a BIG mistake here. 7:51 left and tied 43-43 and have Crosby, Mikesell, and Miller on the floor after the TO. Put the starters back in here. Know trying to buy some time, but too close for 2nd string when 6 minutes without FG. I WAS WRONG HERE AS STARTERS BACK IN WITH 7 MINUTES TO GO, THE BALL, AND DOWN 43-44. ARCHIE IS THE MAN.


(24) Sam walks with 7:30 to go, but no call. Should have shot the 3. Wide open look if take it, instead crazy fall away lay-up air balls. Why not take the 3?!?!?

(24) Mikessell did not foul with 7:21 left on drive, bald ref again. He cannot move on to Round of 32 right, terrible call. They have not made this limited contact block call on the drive all game long, why now?!?!? Only hurts 1 point, but awful call.

(25) Cooke again does not turn hips on reverse lay-up 5 feet away and gets blocked. Sorry but soft effort again falling away.

(26) Kyle fights through screen and gets foul with 6:47. 20 puts out his knee on screen. This is a no call, but if a foul on 20. I have no idea how Kyle picks up a foul here. Results in 2 points. So last 3 points on FTs for Wichita State are fiction. They cannot make a FG either. Really terrible call.

(27) My memory is Wichita State made the plays on their run, but so far just refs giving them phantom FTs.

(28) Pollard gave drive and I agree no foul on 20, but do not call weak blocks on other side, because this could have been called. Let them play. 45-46 with 6:23 to go.

(29) Kyle slips and easily lay-up, sigh, unlucky.

(30) Good defense by 20 on Pollard on his miss. with 5:45 to go and down 45-48.

(31) Scoochie brain-fart and seeing ball but not man and gets burned for a 3. Scoochie great game, but terrible time to lose his man completely. Terrible terrible defense.

(32) Pollard fouled with 5:01 to go on block shot and announcers say the same thing. Dark hair ref swallows whistle. This is a block.

(33) WHY DOES ARCHIE TAKE KYLE OUT WITH 4:15 LEFT. Dayton is on a 3-0 run all Kyle on lay-ups cutting it to 48-51. Kyle was so upset when taken out for DD. Really don't get this at all. On a run because Kyle's defense and transition and we sub him.

(34) TURNING POINT IN THE GAME. COOKE MISSES LAY-UP WITH 3:43 LEFT, GOES TO RIM SOFT AGAIN. THEY GET 3 FTS SO UP 6 INSTEAD OF 1. IF KYLE IN THE GAME, HE MAKES LAY-UP OR GETS FOULED AS ALWAYS FIRST DOWN THE COURT.

(35) Rafferty calls it nickel-dimer on Pollard's could on other end that ultimately results in 3 FTs, agreed. If foul there, then Cooked fouled as well. Both non-calls. Perhaps Pollard gets him in mid-section slightly with right hand. Kyle probably did not get fouled on both of his two break-out drives and got 4 foul shots so equals out.

(36) X and Cooke do not grab the ball on the rebound with 3:37, hits him the hands which results in 2 more points. 48-52 becomes 48-54. Wichita State was not even contesting the rebound, OMG, did not see this live. Wichita literally was passive on the rebound. Wow lost opportunity, whether mental issue by X/Cooke or unlucky or whatever, wow oh wow oh wow.

(37) What a joke, bald ref again screen from play, cannot see through the traffic and calls foul on Kyle with 3 seconds on shot clock and 2:38 to go. Clear jump ball and announcers call it. If bald ref moves on to Round of 32, it is a travesty. Foul on 1 if anything. Just a joke. Hurts 1 point only though.

(38) Good lack of fouls by ref when Dayton gets like 3-4 offensive rebounds with 2:15 to go, I see no fouls when Pollard or X are shooting, unfortunately ...

(39) Kyle 51-55. What a clutch 3.

(40) Soochie loses Frankamp and doesn't dig down either. Terrible terrible defense by Scoochie. He lost his guy 2x and results in 6 points in 2H. 51-58. Soochie a great game, but 2 crucial defensive brain farts. If helps on defense, must dig-down instead sits at FT line in no-mans land. Sigh.

(41) Wide open 3 by X to cut it to 56-58 and 3rd airball, wow could have cut it to 56-58 with 1:04 left. And Pollard had rebound and went off his hands, unlucky. But X not even close.

(42) Should be Dayon's ball with 35.6 seconds left as shot clock violation. Kyle great defense and black hair ref anticipation call. THIS IS AWFUL AGAIN. Gifted 2 points again. I really don't know how these refs move on, just abysmal call. DOWN 5 AND LIKE A 1% SHOT to win, DOWN 7 AND LIKE LESS THAN A 1/1000 SHOT to win. JUST TERRIBLE, but really does not change the outcome of the game.

(43) X wide open 3 again, should have cut to 4. Sigh.

(44) Seriously this is 3x clock operator failed. Missed 2x shot clock violations and this with 25.6 seconds left, this is bad but no impact on game. How did clock go from 25.6 to 24.2. Scoochie had not touched it. Baffled again.

(45) Announcers love DAYTON.

(46) Wow, some shots fall in last 2 minutes and some better calls and Dayton has a chance. Refs were awful, but blame squarely on Dayton lack of made shots.

ARCHIE IS THE MAN, SO WELL COACHED.

Will really miss the seniors. This was cathartic for me as well. Just deleted the video from my DVR.

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Old 03-19-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'd love to watch a game play-by-play and break things down but I sadly don't have time...but I do want to address #8.

You can only goaltend a shot. I'm assuming this was a pass you mentioned, and if that is factual then by definition there can't be goaltending.


Basketball rules are nuts. There is so much that goes on at a speed that is so fast and a level so far above the rim that expecting split-second perfection is nuts. But 99% of calls I believe are correct. The above-average knowledgable fan might talk a good game, but outside the obvious and easy calls, they really have no idea what they are talking about. I could write a case study about the loudmouth idiot dad at the AAU tournament game I reffed this morning who loudly questioned 90% of the calls me and my partner made this morning...and BTW, my pattern is an OHSAA HOF referee who obviously knows WTF he's calling.

As for the NWern 'goaltend' no-call....I contend - despite the NCAA's comments - that it's NOT a goaltend! Why? At least in high school bball, it's a violation to reach thru the basket and since you make calls as they happen, the violation of reaching thru the rim happened first, then a split second later the defender blocked the shot...so IMRO I say 'violation, NWern ball...spot throw-in'.

I say this without reading the NCAA rulebook which I have at my office. Tomorrow I'll look it up.

I must be off...reffed 5 games this morning and because of a (qualified and competent) ref shortage I have 2 more...long day...

So all you know-it-alls (not you ruechalgrin)...this is your chance to make some money and test your knowledge of hoops! Take the ref class...don the stripes and make some money while getting great exercise. Bring your balls...you'll need them.

Good luck!
Thanks Rollo, I actually read the rulebook and did not know that one so thanks. Two questions for you:

(1) So if ball is touching rim (not saying it was here, just hypothetical) on a pass and player touches it, is it a goal-tend or not? Curious.

(2) I get where each referee is positioned and the part of the court he/she is watching and his/her responsibility. If you are blocked off by bodies or shielded from the play, should you call or not call fouls? 3-4x times in Wichita State and Dayton game, right referred, but poorly positioned (or unlucky positioned) could not have seen fouls and called them and actually wrong calls both ways on most of them -- TV had good angle and refs none. What are you supposed to do here. Other 2 refs would not be looking at the area of the court so either you anticipate/guess or no-call. I personally would prefer no call, but what are refs taught?

By the way, Rollo was my 8th grade basketball coach so he is nice to me :-)

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Old 03-19-2017, 02:45 PM
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I sat behind the Dayton bench. What I saw was the ball hit the rim before the WSU player put it back in. Split second. Pass or not, it hit the rim first.

I saw Mikesell schooled on defense when was in there.

The 3 at the end of half with good defense on him was painful. Big lift for a terrible half for WSU.

I think the players were tired in the last 4 minutes. That is why Archie had subs in late in game. He pulled a Kyle to give him one minute of rest. Some errors are from physical and mental fatigue.

I did record the game, so the review is most interesting.

I still contend that Witchita State was very good and outplayed UD especially on the boards. Kyle is the only true 50/50 loose ball rebounding player on the team.

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Old 03-19-2017, 02:57 PM
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One more thought. X and Cooke will miss shots, it happens.

Most disappointed watching the entire tape in two things and unlucky with the 3rd:

(1) Cooke's effort and mentality on defense was not there tonight. Play after play in bad position (more mental) and effort was not there. Don't know what the problem was. Missing shots happen, perhaps this impacted his defense?

(2) Scoochie actually terrible 2nd half defense on two there point shots where was ball watching and lost player guarding resulted in 6 points. Just two absolutely huge mental errors. If tired and just was slow, I would get it, but did not dig down nor did he stay on guy (and when I say this, I say close enough in weak-side help to recover).

(3) Dayton had 7 more possessions in this game! Going in, would have guessed -5 or so. Could have won with a few more calls, few better bounces of the ball, some better shooting, or lack of defensive mental/physical lapses. I actually think this loss will eat Archie up this offseason after watching the tape.

Again, thanks to Archie and the seniors. Lose as a team and win as a team.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Thanks Rollo, I actually read the rulebook and did not know that one so thanks. Two questions for you:

(1) So if ball is touching rim (not saying it was here, just hypothetical) on a pass and player touches it, is it a goal-tend or not? Curious.
'touching'...WTF does that mean? If it's falling 'out', no call. If it's falling into the cylinder, call it. If it's perfectly balanced and not moving in our out, make something up...but I'd probably call it just to pretend I knew what to do.

Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
(2) I get where each referee is positioned and the part of the court he/she is watching and his/her responsibility. If you are blocked off by bodies or shielded from the play, should you call or not call fouls?
In any and all sports, you can't call what you don't see (or hear...SLAP! for instance).

Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
By the way, Rollo was my 8th grade basketball coach so he is nice to me :-)
Ummm, no I wasn't. I was your 9th grade coach back when Van Buren and Kettering Junior High both had a 9th grade team...and for the record, I'm f'ing nice to EVERYONE!
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
the selfishness of Cooke and Pollard raised it's ugly head, once again, and the desperation, off balance shots began to take place. All when it was still a 3 point game.
So now Pollard is selfish too? Maybe you should start a thread dedicated to trashing him like the one you started on Cooke.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:22 PM
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What Smitty can't comprehend is Pollard and Cooke are running what their coach wants the to run. He runs set and motion to get them isolated on one side of the floor and to take the ball to the rim from there. When Smitty is named head coach, he can change up the offense if he wants. Till then, well, he will just have nothing worthwhile to add.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:31 PM
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Both we lost and they won!
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:57 PM
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2 of 3 referees moved on to Round 32. Bald guy (Bret Smith) did not while other two Randy McCall and Jeb Hartness did.

BTW, kenpom had Bret Smith the lowest rated one of the three at about 85; I also thought after watched game on TV today he was bad and inconsistent on defensive/offensive rebounding calls.

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Old 03-20-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
As for the NWern 'goaltend' no-call....I contend - despite the NCAA's comments - that it's NOT a goaltend! Why? ...it's a violation to reach thru the basket and since you make calls as they happen, the violation of reaching thru the rim happened first, then a split second later the defender blocked the shot...so IMRO I say 'violation, NWern ball...spot throw-in'.

I say this without reading the NCAA rulebook which I have at my office. Tomorrow I'll look it up.
I looked it up and am correct...here's the rule:

"When the (goaltending/interference) violation results from touching the ball while it is in the basket after entering from below, no points shall be scored and the ball shall be awarded to the opponent at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred."

I rest my case.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:58 AM
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I've gone both ways on this question. Part of me thinks we lost it, while a part of me thinks WSU won. In the end, after watching WSU play Kentucky, I would say they won. WSU is the best defense that we faced all year. And when it looked like we started to get a groove going at the end of the first half, they tightened the screws on defense and shut us down. They forced us to play their style of basketball. They held us 18 points below our season average. At the time our game ended I thought we just played a bad game. Then I watched them play Kentucky.

Even though WSU lost to Kentucky, they dictated the pace and the style of that game. Just like they did against us. They held Kentucky to 65 points, 20 lower than what they average on the season. This was also the fewest points Kentucky had scored all year. This same Kentucky team scored in the 90's or 100's 14 times this year, including 115 against Arizona St. in regulation.

I know as fans, we like to look back and quickly point out blame to our guys because we believed we should have won. They are a good team, who wins games on defense and 3 point shooting. While they didn't hit that many threes against us, they hit them when it counted. We settled for a lot of jump shots when we should of kept attacking the rim. That plays right into their hands when they are dominating the boards. In this case, I think it is a tip of the cap to WSU for winning this game.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I had said this before: there is a very clear difference in talent, height/weight, speed/quickness, etc. between the A10 and BE.

But, Archie makes the most of what he has.

There is nothing UD can do about being in the A10, other than to try to be the next Gonzaga. And that is a longer-term process.

But, it is possible to become the next Gonzaga. Wichita State is well on their way to becoming the next Gonzaga.
No doubt but this was the year that Big Steve was THE man at 6'11" that could have been a 1st/2nd team A10 player and an even better rim protector and, of course, a healthy Cunningham...Add in those 2 players and you're looking at a top 12-15 team and all of a sudden a front court that matches up far better...
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
In the end, after watching WSU play Kentucky, I would say they won. WSU is the best defense that we faced all year.
UD was not going to win a game that a team forced into a half court grind and in which they were going to get destroyed on the glass. WSU set the tempo in both games, never allowed KY to be comfortable on offense. It seemed fairly clear that Calipari largely abandoned his offense after half time and told Fox to just create something. WS pretty much made Monk irrelevant till the big three in the face of Shamet.

Like last year, it was a terrible matchup. Other team's strengths were UD weaknesses. Dayton needed to create a large number of live ball turnovers, something the opponent in the last two years seldom commits.

WS was grossly underseeded. By the way, the impressions of the top conferences also ended up out of whack. The supposedly weak SEC nearly had 4 teams in the sweet16, and the ACC none.

I think there's a problem on selection committee, with too many ADs. Many of whom at the large schools are far from hoops experts, and increasingly are business types with a mission to manage finances.

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  #50  
Old 03-20-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I still contend that Witchita State was very good and outplayed UD especially on the boards. Kyle is the only true 50/50 loose ball rebounding player on the team.
People keep talking about rebounding disparity. Rebounding did not lose us the game (and we lost it, they didn't win it). They out-rebounded us by 16. Consider:

-They turned the ball over 10 more times than us (16-6). That's 10 shots they never took, and 6 rebounds we never had to get.
-They shot 40% off of 48 shots while we shot 30% off of 58 shots. So we had 29 chances at defensive rebounds while they had 41 chances at defensive rebounds. That's a disparity of 11 rebounds just because we shot the ball so dang badly. We had 10 offensive rebounds, they had 13.

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I looked it up and am correct...here's the rule:

"When the (goaltending/interference) violation results from touching the ball while it is in the basket after entering from below, no points shall be scored and the ball shall be awarded to the opponent at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred."

I rest my case.
New strategy: Find a 7'7" BWS who's job it is to stand under the rim and judge any time a ball appears to be on it's way into the basket. Reach through the rim and touch it. No points, ball out of bounds. If it looks like it's going to miss let it go.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
People keep talking about rebounding disparity. Rebounding did not lose us the game (and we lost it, they didn't win it). They out-rebounded us by 16. Consider:

-They turned the ball over 10 more times than us (16-6). That's 10 shots they never took, and 6 rebounds we never had to get.
-They shot 40% off of 48 shots while we shot 30% off of 58 shots. So we had 29 chances at defensive rebounds while they had 41 chances at defensive rebounds. That's a disparity of 11 rebounds just because we shot the ball so dang badly. We had 10 offensive rebounds, they had 13.



New strategy: Find a 7'7" BWS who's job it is to stand under the rim and judge any time a ball appears to be on it's way into the basket. Reach through the rim and touch it. No points, ball out of bounds. If it looks like it's going to miss let it go.
Watching the game in the stands, the rebounding differential felt big, but turnovers were not factored in.

I felt that 8 blocked shots and the rebounds were the difference. Not easy to win games when you shoot 31% and you are blocked 8 times. The rebounds are probably a symptom of seeing those blocks and misses.

Wichita played great defense. So did UD. It was a good hard played game. The last four minutes were not what we hoped for.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:20 PM
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There were 32 rebounds to be had from WS missed shots. Dayton got 19 of them, WS got 13. That's not something that lends itself to winning when the other team gets 40% of their misses back. WS scored 19 points off of those 13 offensive rebounds.

In contrast there were 45 rebound opportunities at the UD basket. Wichita State got 35 of them. Dayton 10, leading to 8 points.

Yes, Dayton created 10 more turnovers. But UD had 12 points off of their 16 turnovers. Most turnovers were not live ball leading to a break. UD only had 4 fast break points the entire game.

WS clearly forced play to their style, they didn't give Dayton transition baskets or points off live ball turnovers, and scored nearly a third of their points by rebounding their own missed shots. I'll stay with rebounding being the key to the game. That and having 8 shots blocked.

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  #53  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
There were 32 rebounds to be had from WS missed shots. Dayton got 19 of them, WS got 13. That's not something that lends itself to winning when the other team gets 40% of their misses back. WS scored 19 points off of those 13 offensive rebounds.

In contrast there 45 rebound opportunities at the UD basket. Wichita State got 35 of them. Dayton 10, leading to 8 points.

Yes, Dayton created 10 more turnovers. But UD had 12 points off of their 16 turnovers. Most turnovers were not live ball leading to a break. UD only had 4 fast break points the entire game.

WS clearly forced play to their style, they didn't give Dayton transition baskets or points off live ball turnovers, and scored nearly a third of their points by rebounding their own missed shots. I'll stay with rebounding being the key to the game. That and having 8 shots blocked.
You guys are rebounding bigots, just like people who favor strikeout pitchers. Who cares if the guy makes an out based on a ground ball or a strikeout? They made an out right?

The points we scored off turnovers is irrelevant. How many points did we score off of defensive rebounds?? Who cares, it makes no difference; it's a pointless way to look at it. 10 extra turnovers is the same as WSU taking 10 shots and missing, with UD getting the rebound on all 10. That makes up 10 of the 16 in the rebounding differential.

I'm not saying we should encourage the team to get out-rebounded by 16, it would be nice to have every rebound. It hurt the cause. But it doesn't hurt nearly as much as people are making it out to.

Shooting dumb shots at a 31% clip is what hurt. If we just shoot a measly 40% as a team we win. How? It's because we had more possessions--regardless of how we got the possession. Just like a ground out, I don't care how the possession was gained, only that we got it.
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  #54  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:18 PM
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If every offensive possession had an equal likelihood of ending in points, I'd agree. But the don't, or at least didn't. The likelihood of scoring off of an offensive rebound is higher than the likelihood of scoring in a half court set. Wichita State scored 1.5 points per offensive rebound. Dayton does not score anything close to that off of a half court possession. Even if they shoot 40 percent on those extra 10 turnovers, they would score 0.8 points per possession.

In my opinion all possessions aren't equal. Some have far more likelihood of scoring.

And if there is an advance metric out there, I'll bet Dayton's offensive efficiency in half court sets is not that good. In games where the opponent could force grind it out half court sets, and limited live ball turnovers they struggled to score and to shoot the ball. While 31% was low, mid 30s would not have been unexpected.

In the end, neither stat was terribly unexpected. Dayton frequently struggled to rebound against physical teams (VCU, WSU) and struggled to score in games where they could not generate fast break and points off turnovers.

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  #55  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kiefaber455 View Post
WSU played tough defense. Some of the shots that Cooke and Pollard took would have been difficult for LeBron James to have made.
That being said, Williams airballed a couple of what looked to be open 3's. After the under 8 timeout, Archie had Miller, Mikesell, Crosby, Cooke, & Davis on the floor. I believe they went from being even to down 6 in a flash, and never recovered.
Guess it's 50/50.
I agree! The score was tied 43-43 and the subs had held their own for about two or three minutes before the under 8 timeout. I couldn't believe the 3 subs returned to the floor after the TV timeout! Miller missed a close range layup, then we committed a foul and gave up a basket all in about 30 seconds! Finally, we put the starters back in! By that time it was too late!
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  #56  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer View Post
I agree! The score was tied 43-43 and the subs had held their own for about two or three minutes before the under 8 timeout. I couldn't believe the 3 subs returned to the floor after the TV timeout! Miller missed a close range layup, then we committed a foul and gave up a basket all in about 30 seconds! Finally, we put the starters back in! By that time it was too late!
I thought the exact same thing, as did the people I was watching with.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I thought the exact same thing, as did the people I was watching with.
How as it too late? Starters went back in a 7:21 minute mark during free throws by Kelly. So starters in, Dayton has the ball with 7:21 to go, and down only 1 point (43-44). The starters loss the game the last 7:21.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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I was hoping Scoochie would go all Roosevelt Chapman on WSU and just take over the game. It was obvious from the 8:00 mark in the first half that he was on fire and most him teammates weren't going to attack the basket...and that we'd only win if he put up 30+. With that said, the turning point was the middle of the 2nd half when Scottie didn't shoot what seemed like 8 minutes. At a time when we needed points, he was looking to pass instead of score. It was the right move as an unselfish point guard, but we needed - desperately - for him to take over.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:09 PM
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A lot of votes on this poll.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
People keep talking about rebounding disparity. Rebounding did not lose us the game (and we lost it, they didn't win it). They out-rebounded us by 16. Consider:

-New strategy: Find a 7'7" BWS who's job it is to stand under the rim and judge any time a ball appears to be on it's way into the basket. Reach through the rim and touch it. No points, ball out of bounds. If it looks like it's going to miss let it go.

Yeah, I don't get Rollo's interpretation either; I simply cannot believe that's in the rule book so I may devote some time looking at it. If that actually is the rule, you're going to see a tremendous increase in use of that strategy. Also, by the way, if that is the rule, why did the NCAA later say the refs missed the call and that it SHOULD have been a goaltending? It's not April 1st yet Rollo...
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
If every offensive possession had an equal likelihood of ending in points, I'd agree. But the don't, or at least didn't. The likelihood of scoring off of an offensive rebound is higher than the likelihood of scoring in a half court set. Wichita State scored 1.5 points per offensive rebound. Dayton does not score anything close to that off of a half court possession. Even if they shoot 40 percent on those extra 10 turnovers, they would score 0.8 points per possession.

In my opinion all possessions aren't equal. Some have far more likelihood of scoring.

And if there is an advance metric out there, I'll bet Dayton's offensive efficiency in half court sets is not that good. In games where the opponent could force grind it out half court sets, and limited live ball turnovers they struggled to score and to shoot the ball. While 31% was low, mid 30s would not have been unexpected.

In the end, neither stat was terribly unexpected. Dayton frequently struggled to rebound against physical teams (VCU, WSU) and struggled to score in games where they could not generate fast break and points off turnovers.
You raise some very interesting points and I really like the analysis. However, I believe if Dayton and Wichita State played 100 times on a neutral court and Dayton would win the possession battle by 7 every time (-3 offensive rebounds and +10 turnovers) and there were about 60 possessions for Wichita State and 67 for Dayton, I think Dayton would win about 2/3rds of the 100 games.

Some points. I do not believe the data would support Dayton's half-court offense shooting in the mid-30s for the season as you suggest above (and I realize you are talking field goal percentage and I am talking effective field goal percentage). Dayton shot 53.6% effective field goal percentage for the year. Probably 80% of possessions were half-court so for half-court effective FG% to be 35% as stated above, the fast-break effective field goal percentage would have to be about 125%. Even for half-court effective field goal percentage to be 40%, fast-break field goal percentage would have to be over 100% (and yes with 3s, theoretically possible for effective field goal percentage to be greater than 100%). Finally, Dayton shot 38.4% from 3 on the year (and I would assume almost all 3s were half-court offense) which translates into about a 57.6% effective field goal percentage from 3. So let's say Dayton's fast-break effective field goal percentage is 80% (which even sounds really high to me), Dayton's half-court effective field goal percentage would be about 47.5%. Versus Wichita State, Dayton's effective field goal percentage was just 37%!! Just about all of Dayton's 3s were wide open. Dayton shoots 38.4% for the year. Dayton hits that percentage in the game with 22 shots and expectation is 8.5 makes instead of the 7 which gives Dayton 4.5 more points (3-6 more points). So not only poor shooting on 2s, but on 3s which has a higher variance usually.

Would be interested to chart points per possession from an offensive rebound and from a turnover. My hunch is not that far apart so basically every possession is equal, but you raise a really interesting question.

Bottom-line, Dayton had +7 more possessions in the game (-3 offensive rebounds and +10 turnovers), with Dayton scoring 1.12 points per possession on the year and Wichita State scoring 1.19 for the season.

If you told me Dayton would be +7 possessions (I was hoping for -3 to -5 going in), I would have thought Dayton would have won by about 3-4 points. Wichita State had about 60 possessions translating into 71.4 points (60 x 1.19) and Dayton had 67 possessions translating into 75 points (67 x 1.12). Even factoring in defensive efficiency on the back of the napkin (Wichita State gives up .928 points per possession and Dayton gives up .956) , +7 possessions for Dayton would have translated into Dayton winning by 1-2 points.

Dayton wins the possession battle by +7 with 67 to 60 possessions on a neutral court and I think Dayton wins the game probably 2/3rds of the time.

Dayton shot terribly, it happens. But Archie's game plan was a masterpiece defensively and Dayton got a lot of good looks, particularly from 3.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:53 PM
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Too bad, your "assessment" holds no water!

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Dayton had them buy their coconuts and the Cooke shoots some one handed, underhanded scoop shot with his back to the basket with 6 seconds on the shot clock. Somehow WSU found a way to keep Scoochie away from the ball. NO THEY DIDN'T, the selfishness of Cooke and Pollard raised it's ugly head, once again, and the desperation, off balance shots began to take place. All when it was still a 3 point game. Man, somebody, anybody, please, some reality here, all UD needed to do was stay within offense we started seeing back in February of 2014 and we sail to victory.

Yep, put all the lipstick you want on this pig, but it was the Flyers game to win or lose, WSU just held their serve and waited on the Flyers to self-destruct.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Some points. I do not believe the data would support Dayton's half-court offense shooting in the mid-30s for the season as you suggest above (and I realize you are talking field goal percentage and I am talking effective field goal percentage). Dayton shot 53.6% effective field goal percentage for the year. Probably 80% of possessions were half-court so for half-court effective FG% to be 35% as stated above, the fast-break effective field goal percentage would have to be about 125%.
I qualified that mid-30s with teams that could force grind it out half court games. In the 50%+ effective field goal percentage for the season there are a lot of bad defensive teams. Scoring in the half court against Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, even St Bonnies can really pad some stats.

WS was willing to give up threes. They were going to collapse and challenge every drive to the hoop. Marshall also had an excellent game plan, as those were the games in which Dayton most struggled to get into an offensive flow. If they hit their threes, you've got a problem. But make them prove they are going in.

I also think it matters how the turnovers are created. Live ball turnovers frequently result in transition attempts, with the conversion to points much higher. WS didn't commit nearly as many live ball turnovers and it shows in the points off turnover stats.

In a game decided in the last 5 minutes, when both teams shoot below their norm, I think you can point to a lot of reasons for who lost. But I do think the biggest reason was not being in control of the defensive glass. That gave WS easy points. UD did not get many easy points off the turnovers. And for that reason I don't think the number of possession difference tell the story of the game.

Others may not agree. No problem.
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  #64  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
How as it too late? Starters went back in a 7:21 minute mark during free throws by Kelly. So starters in, Dayton has the ball with 7:21 to go, and down only 1 point (43-44). The starters loss the game the last 7:21.
In a close game after the extra long TV timeouts of the NCAA tournament, I would have expected the starters to be back in to close out the game. I am not the one that list all the stuff about the score. But I do know the players were not put back into the game after the TV timeout.
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  #65  
Old 03-22-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
There were 32 rebounds to be had from WS missed shots. Dayton got 19 of them, WS got 13. That's not something that lends itself to winning when the other team gets 40% of their misses back. WS scored 19 points off of those 13 offensive rebounds.

In contrast there were 45 rebound opportunities at the UD basket. Wichita State got 35 of them. Dayton 10, leading to 8 points.

Yes, Dayton created 10 more turnovers. But UD had 12 points off of their 16 turnovers. Most turnovers were not live ball leading to a break. UD only had 4 fast break points the entire game.

WS clearly forced play to their style, they didn't give Dayton transition baskets or points off live ball turnovers, and scored nearly a third of their points by rebounding their own missed shots. I'll stay with rebounding being the key to the game. That and having 8 shots blocked.
Mostly THIS. They had 4 or 5 blocked shots ON 1 **** possession!

We needed more 3 pointers or key shots earlier in the game or early in the second half. Once they set the tone of defense, they shut us down (except for Scooch).

Hats off to them. If our 2 for 19 guys hit 9 shots however, it's a game or a win. Nice combination of losing it and them winning it really.
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