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  #1  
Old 11-10-2018, 10:41 PM
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Policelli to redshirt

David Jablonski

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Anthony Grant said in postgame press conference freshman Frankie Policelli will redshirt this season. Dayton will play the season with eight scholarship players.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:52 PM
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Probably the best thing for him. Get some muscle, learn the system, and hit the ground running in 2019-20.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:58 PM
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Wow...that makes for a thin squad! Any injuries and we'll see quite a bit of Jack Westerfeld.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:45 AM
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Grant has made it clear he's looking for the future health of the program. I'm honestly not surprised by this move. Trey plays bigger than he is, Mikesell and Obi are both playing very well and we'll have Josh in the mix soon enough.

But yes, I'd stay in shape if I was a walk on!
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:56 AM
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I hate to go there, but next year when other Frontline transfera become eligible, will not Frank be back in a similar depth chart position?
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  #6  
Old 11-11-2018, 09:10 AM
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We are now 2015-level thin in terms of depth. A couple a walk-on guards does not help your forward depth.

That team was a hair's bredth from the Sweet 16, so who knows.
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2018, 10:07 AM
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  #8  
Old 11-11-2018, 10:23 AM
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If we have injuries, then I suspect all bets are off, if the season is going well. Grant will not depend on walkons and throw away a decent year.
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:55 AM
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Yeah this makes us thin depth wise. All our 8 guys seem to be able to play pretty well though, which is an improvement from last year's actual depth.
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Old 11-11-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
If we have injuries, then I suspect all bets are off, if the season is going well. Grant will not depend on walkons and throw away a decent year.

Right. He could start playing any time if we really needed him.
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Right. He could start playing any time if we really needed him.
Agree with you gents

You need him, you pull the redshirt
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Old 11-12-2018, 09:43 AM
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Why burn a whole year to play 2 minutes a game? Probably best for him to actually sit instead of figuratively sit.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
If we have injuries, then I suspect all bets are off, if the season is going well. Grant will not depend on walkons and throw away a decent year.
Agreed. At the same time, if this season goes poorly, he'll keep the redshirt even if there is an injury. No reason to lose a redshirt for him to play four games but still be under .500. If those four games help push us to an NCAA berth, though, it's worth it.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
I hate to go there, but next year when other Frontline transfera become eligible, will not Frank be back in a similar depth chart position?
To a degree, yes, but at that point he might be more like 225-230 (instead of 215, his listed weight now), and have a season of practice against guys like Mikesell and Landers, without the cost of a year of eligibility. Then, he can get a year of on-court seasoning playing alongside Mikesell and Landers, and in 2 years, heís a Sophomore playing major minutes.

Of course (knock on wood), all bets are off if we have any major injuries.
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:19 AM
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Hopefully, it works out for the program and him.

It made me curious. In this type of situation, if a player transfers at the end of the 1st semester would he be eligible at the beginning of the 2nd semester next season as if he had played or at the beginning of the season?
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Old 11-13-2018, 03:29 PM
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DDN: "Dayton Flyers: Grant wants planned redshirt to stay ready just in case"

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...UJrcTlgHb75yJ/
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  #17  
Old 11-13-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
Agreed. At the same time, if this season goes poorly, he'll keep the redshirt even if there is an injury. No reason to lose a redshirt for him to play four games but still be under .500. If those four games help push us to an NCAA berth, though, it's worth it.

Agree. It seems to me that Grant is really pointing toward 2019-2020 and beyond. By recruiting three transfers who are sitting out and redshirting Frankie we should be loaded next season. Of course he would like to win this season, but having only 8 scholarship players would hurt badly if we had any injuries.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:15 PM
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For the most part, I understand the reaction of most on here to AG's decision to redshirt Frankie, but I don't agree with it. I have zero insight into AG's recruiting philosophy and given that he's barely 18 months on the job, I am still willing to reserve final judgement. Having said that, you get THIRTEEN scholarships. And when AG took the job there is no doubt in my mind that he/his staff began recruiting not only for the 17-18 season, but for the 18-19 season and beyond. He has THIRTEEN scholarships at his disposal, for reasons known only to him, he stopped at nine coming into this season. Surely he's not asking Frankie to learn to dribble a basketball with his opposite hand or learn a new shooting stroke at this point...why not push the "development" pedal a little harder with him? Lord knows there was time in the off season, pre-season, and vs Capital, UNF, PFW, W. Mich, Presby, and Detroit Mercy to break in the kid's sneakers! I haven't crunched the numbers of class balance either, but more and more each year that goes out the door with transfers, one/two-and-dones, loss due to lack of judgement (Sam, Cbus twins). So here we sit with 8 scholly players, one of whom has yet to set foot on the floor in two games.
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2018, 04:38 PM
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If he was worthy of a scholarship this year, he should play this year.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Having said that, you get THIRTEEN scholarships. And when AG took the job there is no doubt in my mind that he/his staff began recruiting not only for the 17-18 season, but for the 18-19 season and beyond. He has THIRTEEN scholarships at his disposal, for reasons known only to him, he stopped at nine coming into this season.

He has three very good (we think) transfers waiting in the wings. I hate to think where we would have been without Jordan Sibert, Vee Sanford, Josh Cunningham, and Charles Cooke. I hope you're not saying we shouldn't recruit transfers.
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  #21  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:19 PM
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Woah, his mom is not happy.

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Old 11-13-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
If he was worthy of a scholarship this year, he should play this year.
Sort of like with Steve, Kostas and Obi and Mikesell. If they cannot play, cut them loose.

That is the whole point of redshirting. Not every kid with good skills has the grades, weight, health and maturity to play as a freshman. In football a kid can now play in four games and still redshirt.

I am sure some people worry that maybe this kid will not be that good in three or four years, and then we have tied up another year of schollie. A) only 7 or 8 players will get major time, or B) he will be urged to transfer.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Sort of like with Steve, Kostas and Obi and Mikesell. If they cannot play, cut them loose.

That is the whole point of redshirting. Not every kid with good skills has the grades, weight, health and maturity to play as a freshman. In football a kid can now play in four games and still redshirt.

I am sure some people worry that maybe this kid will not be that good in three or four years, and then we have tied up another year of schollie. A) only 7 or 8 players will get major time, or B) he will be urged to transfer.
I believe red-shirting can bring a lot of benefit to a power forward or center. An extra year of physical and academic development works wonders on these guys. Keith Waleskowski comes to mind for example. There is a risk that we run out of bigs this year, and smalls as well for that matter, but Frankie can bring more to the team in his prospective years than he can today.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
If he was worthy of a scholarship this year, he should play this year.
I’d say you have equal right to doubt this decision as you have to trust in it. Whether or not it’s the right decision is a tossup.

It’s interesting, though, how teams like Villanova have been feasting off of this concept. Recently, they’ve done so with championship players like Omari Spellman and Mikal Bridges. Both of whom are contributing to their current NBA teams.

Here’s a good article about the tenth pick in this year’s NBA draft: https://sports.yahoo.com/redshirt-gr...053736639.html
“Bridges has gone from struggling to bench 135 to easily putting up 225 five times”
“‘They turn you into a man before you leave here,’ Bridges told Yahoo Sports”

In any case, it seems that the redshirt year stands to always benefit the player. Sometimes it’s not as much about teaching them to dribble and shoot as it is about turning them into a man.
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:32 PM
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Who knows if this was the right call, with only 9 scholarships on board this year, kind of surprising to be honest, but long term, sure would have been nice to have a 5th year of Oliver. Oliver is the kind of player I've always envisioned/hoped Frankie could be. Its a bold decision, hopefully one everyone is on board with (including Mom); it could be huge long term
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:58 PM
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Not sure of the downside here. He can still play him if he needs or wants. He can pull the scholarship after 4 years if he wants. Likelihood is the kid will be much better because of this.

Not sure what you guys wanted Grant to do after he lost 4 guys with eligibility left. You want 4 additional freshmen that were still available in the spring? Or did you want a questionable JC transfer? That is probably all you would have gotten. Instead we have 3 guys for next year that could be really good.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:26 PM
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downside is that the kid and/or his family don't like it, and decide to transfer out at the end of the season (would he be immediately eligible?) But if he's not ready to contribute right now and he's only getting a small handful of minutes then he'll see just as much development thru practice as he would otherwise.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:49 PM
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Policelli must have agreed to this. What was his alternative? Riding the bench and wasting a year of eligibility for mop-up minutes at best? Heís still available in the event of an injury, and he has the opportunity to practice, beef up, develop his skills. I canít believe Grant didnít explain the possibilities of playing vs. sitting, and I doubt he DEMANDED a redshirt year. Sure, maybe this caught Frankieís mom by surprise, but in the long run, I honestly believe this move is being done in the kidís best interests. Think back to Sean Finn who refused a redshirt year and thereby wasted a year of eligibility as a non-productive frosh. One more year at UD, given his productivity as a senior, might have gotten him a spot on the NBA draft board.
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
Who knows if this was the right call, with only 9 scholarships on board this year, kind of surprising to be honest, but long term, sure would have been nice to have a 5th year of Oliver. Oliver is the kind of player I've always envisioned/hoped Frankie could be. Its a bold decision, hopefully one everyone is on board with (including Mom); it could be huge long term
You can find dozens of examples where a player didn't play much as a freshman then we wish he had one more year after he blossoms. Sitting out a year can also backfire. Coming back the following year having been away from game competition. A program like ours usually gets 3 minimum, and usually 4 years out of our players as long as they keep their nose clean. My issues in this case are twofold: 1) AG has had/will have, opportunities to give him decent minutes, and 2) a very short bench, putting more on the shoulders of the other first year players.
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:30 PM
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Here's my thought: if he isn't good enough right now to help out today on a team with 9 scholarship players, how is he going to be good enough next year to help out on a team with 12 or 13 scholarship players?

Might it make more sense for him to redshirt next year? It just seems like you simply can't go with only 8 scholarship players. It seems like he is more valuable this year than he would be next year, with personnel issues being what they are.
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:40 PM
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Even without Frankie our bench is light years better all around than last season. Red shirting in this case is a win-win if it is handled right. He practices with the team, travels with the team, bangs in practice with upperclassmen. He can be brought in if needed, but honestly if it comes to that, we are in trouble anyway because no option would provide a great solution for one of the 8 getting hurt at this point in the season.

Most really good teams are churning the tail of the roster, whether by choice, or surprise departure. Yes, Grant has THIRTEEN scholarships, but the odds of keeping 13 true studs happy with minutes and exposure is next to 0. Grant is working the system, and IMO to the betterment of both parties.

I would wager that the staff has had a real good look at Frankie by now and have his replacement candidates in mind, while hoping it does not come to that.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
You can find dozens of examples where a player didn't play much as a freshman then we wish he had one more year
See Finn, Sean and Landers, Trey
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  #33  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:14 PM
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From what I've heard from a few who saw him at the exhibition game, he didn't look quite ready. That doesn't mean he'll never be ready, maybe he's just lagging behind a bit. Typically, the red shirt has paid dividends for both. Keith W. comes to mind. Sitting out a year doesn't mean we don't like the kid or his potential, it just means that the staff (CAG) see it more beneficial for FP. I think Grant may also be trying to even out the classes a bit. I've heard he can shoot it well; probably just needs more strength. Maybe he talked to Obi about it as well - the year sitting for Obi seems to be working out very well. I think also academically, he gets a year to work on a Masters degree (unless he's blown up and moving on to the NBA). The only negative is our bench is very thin.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
downside is that the kid and/or his family don't like it, and decide to transfer out at the end of the season (would he be immediately eligible?) But if he's not ready to contribute right now and he's only getting a small handful of minutes then he'll see just as much development thru practice as he would otherwise.
I was agreeing with you until you got to the part about seeing as much development thru practice. I believe playing in games (even a few minutes) AND practicing will be better for his development.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:29 PM
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I understand being aggravated by giving him a scholarship and having him not be ready. Once he is here, I don't understand being aggravated by the red shirt. I can't imagine AG and the coaches sitting Frankie down and saying, "we are a little undermanned this year and we believe you could really contribute... but we would rather you not"

Of course I'm not buying into the we will be loaded next year because of it either. If he was good enough to a difference maker next year, he would be good enough to contribute this year.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:51 PM
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
He has three very good (we think) transfers waiting in the wings. I hate to think where we would have been without Jordan Sibert, Vee Sanford, Josh Cunningham, and Charles Cooke. I hope you're not saying we shouldn't recruit transfers.
And let's not forget our leading scorers the last 7 seasons have all been transfers. I think we did pretty well during those years...
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
Who knows if this was the right call, with only 9 scholarships on board this year, kind of surprising to be honest, but long term, sure would have been nice to have a 5th year of Oliver. Oliver is the kind of player I've always envisioned/hoped Frankie could be. Its a bold decision, hopefully one everyone is on board with (including Mom); it could be huge long term
Thinking back, DMO is perhaps our ultimate poster child for redshirting as a Freshman. Look at the leap in his performance from his Junior year to his Senior year, and tell me you (and he) wouldnít have traded a repeat of his Senior performance for his first 2 seasons (let alone his Frosh year only).
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:52 AM
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I don't get mom's reaction, though moms are going to be moms. Maybe with a little time and perspective she'll realize there's no scenario where AG did this for his own benefit at the expense of FP. With only 8 guys, keeping FP on the bench to play 2 minutes a game would be selfish. That's spending FP's valuable asset for what is likely a cheap result (an extra win in a season that will end in the NIT at best?).

The thing none of us know is why FP isn't ready. Is he the all-american guard Bobby Knight recruited at IU who's name I forget? That guy arrived on campus and Knight could immediately see he wasn't good enough. He wasn't going to play. So he quietly rallied support from smaller schools and found a place for him, before Christmas if I remember correctly. Or is FP a late bloomer with all the potential in the world but would be wasting a year, like Finn?

Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Having said that, you get THIRTEEN scholarships.
Only 7-8 play, maybe 9.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:22 AM
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Roster Management

is a major responsibility of AG and his staff. I am willing to support his decision in this matter and we will see how it turns out. He is the coach and should know what is best. Go Flyers!
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post

Only 7-8 play, maybe 9.
So why give out 13 scholarships?

I say, the other 5-6 maybe 4, should play limited minutes so they are more ready to go when they are one of the 7-8, maybe 9. I am also okay with only giving out 11-12 scholarships so you have 1 or 2 in your pocket for a transfer that comes along unexpectedly.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I was agreeing with you until you got to the part about seeing as much development thru practice. I believe playing in games (even a few minutes) AND practicing will be better for his development.

Playing in games is a huge benefit, I won't argue that, but only if we're talking a decent amount of playing time, when it matter (even 5 minutes a game, of regular spurts for 2-3 min a half would be beneficial). However, if we're talking about a kid that may only see time in blowouts when the outcome is all but decided and neither side is running their true sets; just trying to escape the building, then I don't think its going to benefit him all that much. He'll get the development in practice either way, mop up duty isn't really going to give him much to pick up on. A little, sure, but not a ton. All things being equal a 5th season is better than 4 seasons if 1 (or more) of those seasons is spent wasted away on the bench just a step above the walkons.


Imagine if Trey had spent his first year redshirting? Would you trade the 50ish minutes he got in total that season for 1 more full year of basketball? Imagine if Trey started the year with 3 years of eligibility rather than 2? Who knows if Frankie will develop like Trey did, perhaps Trey should have seen more time as a frosh, or perhaps he needed that season to grow, mature and develop his beast mentality. Perhaps the change in coaches allowed him to display his talent sets.


Anyhoo, 1 full season extra season sure as heck beats 50 min of mop up duty as a frosh.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
So why give out 13 scholarships?

I say, the other 5-6 maybe 4, should play limited minutes so they are more ready to go when they are one of the 7-8, maybe 9. I am also okay with only giving out 11-12 scholarships so you have 1 or 2 in your pocket for a transfer that comes along unexpectedly.
Why do football teams get 85 if they only play about 45-50 players per game? Heck, for road games they are only allowed to travel with 70 players so 15 or more scholarship players may not even get to travel to road games. The last 1/4 of your scholarships are about development. These are guys that are expected to practice and improve and be ready to contribute when called upon the next season. In a perfect world, freshman wouldn't see the floor for us unless they are just that good.

I know Obi was a partial qualifier and had to sit out, but look at what happened for him. He gained 30lbs of muscle, worked hard on developing his inside game, and has been a force so far, granted against weak competition. If FP can get 75% of the development that happened for Obi, we are a much better team next year and he didn't waste a year to get that development. Playing Trey Landers freshman minutes or Jordan Pierce freshman minutes is not going to help the team or FP. If we really need FP, injuries or whatever happens, we can pull his redshirt and he can play.
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Old 11-14-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
So why give out 13 scholarships?

I say, the other 5-6 maybe 4, should play limited minutes so they are more ready to go when they are one of the 7-8, maybe 9. I am also okay with only giving out 11-12 scholarships so you have 1 or 2 in your pocket for a transfer that comes along unexpectedly.
You're implicitly assuming 13 is the proper number. "The number allowed is 13, therefore the correct / best number is 13." Not logical. What if the allowed number was 50?
AG, and before him I think Archie, has decided that while you might have the ability to give out 13, the best number for UD is usually not the full compliment of 13. Possible reasons:

1. Transfers are disruptive and are happening at the rate they are because the guys on the bench are demanding to play, the guys on the floor aren't playing at their full potential because a few of their minutes are going toward the guys complaining, and the general locker room bickering from it all.
2. There's no point in dealing with moms of kids who just aren't good enough, and are not likely to ever be good enough. Not many kids out there say "coach I'm probably only a 5 minute per game player, just gimme a uniform and I'm happy."
3. If you find a bluebird and there are 3 fantastic players who all want to come to UD, it would really suck to have 11 guys on scholarship already. Giving out scholarships just to have them filled comes with a downside.
4. Perception. "You're recruiting THAT kid?? He sucks, I've played against him. I guess UD isn't really serious about winning, I'm going to <insert school>."
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Why do football teams get 85 if they only play about 45-50 players per game? Heck, for road games they are only allowed to travel with 70 players so 15 or more scholarship players may not even get to travel to road games. The last 1/4 of your scholarships are about development. These are guys that are expected to practice and improve and be ready to contribute when called upon the next season. In a perfect world, freshman wouldn't see the floor for us unless they are just that good.

I know Obi was a partial qualifier and had to sit out, but look at what happened for him. He gained 30lbs of muscle, worked hard on developing his inside game, and has been a force so far, granted against weak competition. If FP can get 75% of the development that happened for Obi, we are a much better team next year and he didn't waste a year to get that development. Playing Trey Landers freshman minutes or Jordan Pierce freshman minutes is not going to help the team or FP. If we really need FP, injuries or whatever happens, we can pull his redshirt and he can play.
You are making my point. They give out 85 scholarships and they are rostered. Why not just give out 40-45 and red shirt the other 40-45?
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
You're implicitly assuming 13 is the proper number. "The number allowed is 13, therefore the correct / best number is 13." Not logical. What if the allowed number was 50?
AG, and before him I think Archie, has decided that while you might have the ability to give out 13, the best number for UD is usually not the full compliment of 13. Possible reasons:

1. Transfers are disruptive and are happening at the rate they are because the guys on the bench are demanding to play, the guys on the floor aren't playing at their full potential because a few of their minutes are going toward the guys complaining, and the general locker room bickering from it all.
2. There's no point in dealing with moms of kids who just aren't good enough, and are not likely to ever be good enough. Not many kids out there say "coach I'm probably only a 5 minute per game player, just gimme a uniform and I'm happy."
3. If you find a bluebird and there are 3 fantastic players who all want to come to UD, it would really suck to have 11 guys on scholarship already. Giving out scholarships just to have them filled comes with a downside.
4. Perception. "You're recruiting THAT kid?? He sucks, I've played against him. I guess UD isn't really serious about winning, I'm going to <insert school>."

You ignored the part where I said I was okay with only using 11-12 for the transfer that may come along unexpectedly. If I said 10-11 instead of 11-12 would that be okay/
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
You are making my point. They give out 85 scholarships and they are rostered. Why not just give out 40-45 and red shirt the other 40-45?

Because if you can only hand out 45 and want to "redshirt" shirt the rest, I think many of those kids that were working their way up from the bottom 45 their first year or two would be on scholarship somewhere else, rather than waiting a year or two to earn their scholarship at their first choice. Redshirting is far more common in football; I like their new rule where you get 4 games before the redshirt no longer is eligible, would like to see something similar in basketball, 10 games maybe?
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Policelli must have agreed to this. What was his alternative? Riding the bench and wasting a year of eligibility for mop-up minutes at best? He’s still available in the event of an injury, and he has the opportunity to practice, beef up, develop his skills. I can’t believe Grant didn’t explain the possibilities of playing vs. sitting, and I doubt he DEMANDED a redshirt year. Sure, maybe this caught Frankie’s mom by surprise, but in the long run, I honestly believe this move is being done in the kid’s best interests. Think back to Sean Finn who refused a redshirt year and thereby wasted a year of eligibility as a non-productive frosh. One more year at UD, given his productivity as a senior, might have gotten him a spot on the NBA draft board.
What if the kid is motivated and determined enough to prove (in practice, of course) that the mop-up minutes are BS and leapfrogs someone else on the depth chart? Can't wait for Bucky to tell us that the best player on the team isn't even eligible (read Obi last year) when in fact he is eligible. Does AG say "we're removing your RS?" Not even AG knows the heart of a kid after just a few weeks of practice. Sorry, not buying this whole scenario with an already short bench.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:47 PM
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Ultimately - Grant has to do what he thinks is best for the program. The season has started and it's time for him to make some tough decisions. Obviously he believes a RS for Frankie is in the best interest of the program. That's the beginning, middle, and end of that part of the story. It's not FP's decision if he plays this year.

If this was indeed a surprise for FP, then he probably feels stuck. Even if he wanted to leave, he can't play D1 until next year, which is the same boat he's in here.

I trust AG talked to FP and told him why he did it and talked about the long term benefits for FP. Hopefully it makes sense to FP and he can talk to Obi & Josh about the benefit that can be had from the extra year.
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Old 11-14-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
You ignored the part where I said I was okay with only using 11-12 for the transfer that may come along unexpectedly. If I said 10-11 instead of 11-12 would that be okay/

I don't know what's "OK," but basically in the end it's for AG to decide. My only point was that there could be very good reasons to have <13, maybe even <10.

Maybe the most important of which is the perception issue. I was definitely not a great HS basketball player, but I played against some of the guys in the O'Brien years. If I was a top rated player and I heard UD was recruiting some of those guys I would have said "THOSE are the players that are going to be around me??" If AG is filling out the roster with warm bodies just to get up to 12 it might give a very good player a reason to pause, maybe even people whispering in that player's ear "they've shooting for the moon with you, look at the last 3 guys on the bench, they weren't even that good in high school." Whereas if there's only 9 and all 9 are pretty good it will give you a different flavor.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:03 PM
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Coaches donít offer a redshirt option to any old player. They offer redshirts to players they think will contribute in future years. Why invest 5 years of scholarship money on a player you feel will not contribute except mop up minutes? AG and company must like something in Frankieís game. Mom needs to put her ego in the closet and buy in to a plan that will help her son maximize his potential.

Itís all good. It will be really good if we stay injury free this year so Frankie doesnít have to be called on and blow up the plan.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:12 PM
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Talking

Good opinions all! MNFats declared this over!!

If I were Jack Westerfield and I start getting significant minutes I'd ask for one of those 4 scholly's not being used!!
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:14 PM
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I hope the Frankie deal works out. He can really shoot it. The question is how did we after having a full year to recruit only have 9 players. Now I know they want the right kid on and off the court, but there were a slew of Grad transfers etc still out there. I have no doubt they tried but to be at 8 this early is tough, already have the injury with Josh. Really think we have a good group that can win this Conference lets hope we can stay healthy.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Good opinions all! MNFats declared this over!!

If I were Jack Westerfield and I start getting significant minutes I'd ask for one of those 4 scholly's not being used!!
It's not over. I woke up this morning feeling pretty dangerous.
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:33 PM
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Someone help me out here. We currently have 8 scholarship players eligible to play this year (9 if you count Frankie), but there are three transfers with scholarships too, correct? So why are people saying Grant had multiple scholarships to use to fill the roster this year? Isn't there only one unused scholarship currently?
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Old 11-14-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Someone help me out here. We currently have 8 scholarship players eligible to play this year (9 if you count Frankie), but there are three transfers with scholarships too, correct? So why are people saying Grant had multiple scholarships to use to fill the roster this year? Isn't there only one unused scholarship currently?
You are correct: We have 12 scholarships in use. Transfers count, so we really only have one available. We have Sissoko coming in and Cunningham going out, so weíll have one more to hand out, if they want. That would take us to 13, though Grant could choose not to use it.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
If this was indeed a surprise for FP, then he probably feels stuck. Even if he wanted to leave, he can't play D1 until next year, which is the same boat he's in here.

I trust AG talked to FP and told him why he did it and talked about the long term benefits for FP. Hopefully it makes sense to FP and he can talk to Obi & Josh about the benefit that can be had from the extra year.
I do not believe this was a surprise for Frankie. He stood applauding encouragement to the walkons as they ran to the scorer's table to report. I just don't think that would be the reaction of a player not "in the know"
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
What if the kid is motivated and determined enough to prove (in practice, of course) that the mop-up minutes are BS and leapfrogs someone else on the depth chart? Can't wait for Bucky to tell us that the best player on the team isn't even eligible (read Obi last year) when in fact he is eligible. Does AG say "we're removing your RS?" Not even AG knows the heart of a kid after just a few weeks of practice. Sorry, not buying this whole scenario with an already short bench.

Not sure why you are saying Frankie would not be "eligible." AG can still play him any time if he feels the need.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
If I were Jack Westerfield and I start getting significant minutes I'd ask for one of those 4 scholly's not being used!!

Not sure if this is sarcasm or what. I assume you know that the three transfers sitting out and Frankie are using scholarships.

Last edited by longtimefan; 11-14-2018 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
I do not believe this was a surprise for Frankie. He stood applauding encouragement to the walkons as they ran to the scorer's table to report. I just don't think that would be the reaction of a player not "in the know"

The DDN this morning said he discussed it with his parents and agreed with it.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:36 PM
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There is still one scholarship open.
Last year Christine Szabo in WBB was awarded an open scholarship at the end of the season because she played frequently due to all the injuries. So it can be done retroactively.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
And let's not forget our leading scorers the last 7 seasons have all been transfers. I think we did pretty well during those years...

17-18 Cunningham
16-17 Cooke
15-16 Cooke
14-15 Sibert
13-14 Sibert
12-13 Dillard
11-12 Dillard
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
I do not believe this was a surprise for Frankie. He stood applauding encouragement to the walkons as they ran to the scorer's table to report. I just don't think that would be the reaction of a player not "in the know"
I meant more of when the conversation first came up - if they talked about it before the first game - was FP taken by surprise then, or had they already discussed that option.

He also looked like he was in uniform for the game, but maybe not.
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:00 PM
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Redshirts, unless injured, are always in uniform for the game. They CAN play, if necessary, though that ends the redshirt status.

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Old 11-14-2018, 04:06 PM
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Why do people insist on making mountains out of molehills?
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Why do people insist on making mountains out of molehills?
Very disappointed. With a comment like that from you, I'd expect illustrations.
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:34 PM
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Redshirting Frankie sounds good. Hopefully injuries do not become a problem.
It's interesting that many posters bring up Trey Landers as a candidate that could have or should have redshirted, because of his great improvement as a sophomore. What I have never heard, and of course it is too late now, is what Trey's reaction to all of this would be. Would he have been ok with it? Would he now wish that he did?
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Old 11-14-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Why do people insist on making mountains out of molehills?
Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Very disappointed. With a comment like that from you, I'd expect illustrations.
Here's an 'illustration' on a mountain...why? because I couldn't find any on a molehill.



Regardless, it's my royal opinion, and one I'm sure AG shares, that if Frankie could contribute this season, he'd be playing. Obviously he's not ready and reading between the lines, he's not even close.

The Royal Pine Club or Oakwood Club didn't get famous or popular because they hurried out steaks based on how hungry King Rollo and his family appeared...they knew serving a raw steak would send us to the Paragon or Raquet Club...so because they know better, they prepared the steaks to perfection and then served it (with a martini).

And AG is doing the same thing with Frankie. When he's ready, he'll play. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks...except AG....and, of course, the Rock! Which is how it should be...



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Old 11-14-2018, 05:39 PM
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For what it's worth, I want the 2.0 version of Frankie back. He appears to have the frame that will pack on some muscle. Several players have said he can fill it up from range. Even though Mikesell said in a light moment "he's a little skinny". That was several months ago and I'm sure he knew nothing about where this was headed.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:08 PM
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I would think it would be easier to recruit really good players with the promise of 25 to 30 minutes a game.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:34 PM
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You would run out of minutes

Just take today's averages and throw Josh in the mix with 30 minutes:


Josh 30
Obi 28
Ryan 32
Jordan 32
Trey 30
Jalen 32
Dwayne 20
Jhery 19

Total 223 minutes.

First problem is you already need to carve out 23 minutes from the above since that is how far you are over the available 200 minutes/game. Second, how many 25 to 30 minute studs are you going to acquire with no minutes available? Third, there are certain players you really want to play 37 to 38 minutes--like Jalen, Trey, and maybe Obi. Lastly you have
Dwayne likely proving soon that he is worthy of 30 minutes.

Promising minutes to recruits is easier said than done, especially if you are already out of house money.
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer View Post
I would think it would be easier to recruit really good players with the promise of 25 to 30 minutes a game.
Well we certainly canít offer guys 25-30 minutes a game with a 4 star signed, everybody but Josh back, Frankie available, two power five transfers and a third transfer who is highly regarded in Chatman. Next year should be an absolute battle for minutes. Thereís that depth problem again.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Just take today's averages and throw Josh in the mix with 30 minutes:


Josh 30
Obi 28
Ryan 32
Jordan 32
Trey 30
Jalen 32
Dwayne 20
Jhery 19

Total 223 minutes.

First problem is you already need to carve out 23 minutes from the above since that is how far you are over the available 200 minutes/game. Second, how many 25 to 30 minute studs are you going to acquire with no minutes available? Third, there are certain players you really want to play 37 to 38 minutes--like Jalen, Trey, and maybe Obi. Lastly you have
Dwayne likely proving soon that he is worthy of 30 minutes.

Promising minutes to recruits is easier said than done, especially if you are already out of house money.
Why would you recruit a shooting guard when you have Charles Cook or Siebert? That's not the guy you're recruiting. I think what he's saying is that you can play some guys a few minutes as freshmen and work their way up to 25-30 as juniors and seniors.

Big men will tend to play closer to 20 (40), guards more like 30+ (60), forwards around 25-30 (50-60), and that leaves 2-4 younger guys splitting the remaining 40-50 minutes per game as they develop for a total of 8-10 regular players.

For example, in 15-16 when we were very good, we had:

Bigs were young, less minutes:
(F) Steve: 18
(F) Sam: 10

Forwards:
(S) DP: 33
(J) KP: 26
(F) XW: 10
(F) Ryan: 8

Guards were higher in total because it was our strength:
(J) Cooke: 32
(J) SS: 31
(J) KD: 25
(So) DD: 20
(F) Crosby: 8

The freshmen split 36 minutes (excluding Steve who started) and all the upper classmen played 25+ per game, matching what he said: promising 25-30 minutes per game for really good players is possible.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:54 AM
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Maybe I am the odd man out but I liked it when we had 10 guys making a significant contribution. I think to a certain degree you can trump quality with quantity.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:21 AM
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If you are inferring Brian Gregory's hockey line changes...no thank you!!!
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
If you are inferring Brian Gregory's hockey line changes...no thank you!!!
How about Archie Miller playing 11 guys in the 2014 NCAA tournament?
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmBeachFlyer View Post
I would think it would be easier to recruit really good players with the promise of 25 to 30 minutes a game.
I personally think AG & Company are doing a great job going after every recruit they think can help UD. Based on whatís been reported, I think AG is much more aggressive with higher ranked recruits than AM was while at UD.

All that said, until we consistently win the A10 and make it to the second and third rounds and beyond in the NCAAs, there will continue to be ďdiamond in the roughĒ guys on our roster. Players that have huge upside that will benefit from Daytonís program and become key contributors in their third and fourth years. A redshirt year will always be an option for these players.

There are strong argument for and against using redshirts, but programs that manage ALL tools at their disposal can use the redshirt option to build very successful teams. Iím a fan of the redshirt if itís managed and I believe AG knows what heís doing in this case. He certainly knows who is in his pipeline and the probability of who will sign and who probably wonít. I trust Frankie fits into the future.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
How about Archie Miller playing 11 guys in the 2014 NCAA tournament?
When you play games that close together you play more guys. We played a lot of guys at Maui that year too, but KD and KP did not see the floor much after. Let's not forget, Kav, Scott, and Robinson were foul machines. They played more because of foul trouble more than anything. Archie himself said 9 is the ideal number. Many other coaches will say 8. Back in the times of Donoher it was 6 maybe 7. I cannot recall a time of teams playing 10 guys for consistent minutes, but that is just me. And playing 2-3 minutes a game, I do not consider that consistent minutes.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I think what he's saying is that you can play some guys a few minutes as freshmen and work their way up to 25-30 as juniors and seniors.
I agree it is possible to work in "development" minutes. However, I think the 8 players AG has right now are what's going to save us from another 14-17 season, and maybe his job. Hence the reassignment of Frankie. I would not look to anyone else because there is a definite sense of urgency for this season and next. It's not a perfect world and the development of Jhery Matos and Dwayne Cohill is the highest priority.
No one else this year comes close.

Next year we will have a higher cause to develop a larger base and with only Josh Leaving I see us going 10 deep with players worthy of the developmental minutes.

No two years are alike.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:34 AM
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I'll bet most coaches lose sleep, especially the likes of Calapari, K, Self and Wright, about who to start and whether they recruited too many great kids to fit into the minutes... not. Nice web banter, but I would guess Grant is losing sleep worrying about how he can get more better players.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:40 AM
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I'm not a big fan of redshirts, but I do make exceptions...



...BROTHER!!!

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Old 11-15-2018, 11:46 AM
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How about we continue to recruit over the guys we have and let the players sort the minutes out? No one is guaranteed any minutes, they have to earn them. If a Frosh shows up and outperforms a senior, then the frosh earns minutes. Holding back a scholarship is great if you think there will be a late decider or transfer, or you are trying to balance classes. Holding one back because you think you have enough talent is not a good enough reason, because you are always one injury away from not having enough talent.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'm not a big fan of redshirts, but I do make exceptions...



...BROTHER!!!

She is slightly out of your league Rollo. $45M+ per year. One of the highest paid performers in any business. HOT.
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
She is slightly out of your league Rollo. $45M+ per year. One of the highest paid performers in any business. HOT.
Kaley is a liberal...I can do better.

Like Elisabeth Hasselbeck....



or any/all of these great Americans ...

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Old 11-15-2018, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Kaley is a liberal...I can do better.

Like Elisabeth Hasselbeck....



or any/all of these great Americans ...

Are you sure Kaley is a liberal? I think she is more conservative...at least I hope so or else I'll have to cross her off of my list.
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
She is slightly out of your league Rollo. $45M+ per year. One of the highest paid performers in any business. HOT.
Sure...let's go with SLIGHTLY.
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Are you sure Kaley is a liberal? I think she is more conservative...at least I hope so or else I'll have to cross her off of my list.
Unless she comes out as 'R', I'll assume she's a liberal...King Rollo wants commitments, no hidden agendas allowed in my Kingdom! And when she gets the news that she's on my list and dons a MAGA hat, she's mine.
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Old 11-15-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
How about we continue to recruit over the guys we have and let the players sort the minutes out? No one is guaranteed any minutes, they have to earn them. If a Frosh shows up and outperforms a senior, then the frosh earns minutes. Holding back a scholarship is great if you think there will be a late decider or transfer, or you are trying to balance classes. Holding one back because you think you have enough talent is not a good enough reason, because you are always one injury away from not having enough talent.
Agreed. Every guy who plays for UD should know that AG is out there trying to sign a guy who wants to take his minutes.

One thing I have considered is that once he has a full roster of his guys, maybe AG wants to go with full court pressure in which case he may need to sub guys more efficiently. That is pure speculation on my part however.
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Old 11-15-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
That is pure speculation on my part however.
...like, oh, 99.99% of the content on this board. Rollo's pics being the exception. No speculation there.
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:02 PM
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I feel for Frankie. Hes got great upside and we want him here!

From a players point , you go from being THE MAN in your program at 17/18 ....to an ego hit of red shirting at 19. Then ya gotta explain that to your friends and family. That takes maturity and patience, the long view.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:19 PM
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Anyone think Frankie had any input into this decision, if it is going this direction.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:30 PM
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Of course he had input and probably could have declined to redshirt. But what was the trade off? Mop-up minutes? I have no doubt this was done in his and the programís best interests. I fail to grasp the consternation over this. If we need him because of injury, he can play. Otherwise, he gets an extra year to develop his skills and his body.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:35 PM
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So much for that. With Matos out, Cunningham under the weather, and a Top 25 opponent, Frankie is now on the ďactiveĒ roster.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:00 PM
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Why was Matos out
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:01 PM
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He has a foot injury.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:04 PM
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Why did we only play Frankie for 3 minutes? We wasted what 6 games of developing him as he could have been playing him all to get 3 minutes tonight.

Makes me wonder what we are thinking.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:36 PM
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I'd put a halftone beer on FP not being a Flyer next season. We saw this tactic before...
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:04 PM
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If you're going to use him in the first half, use him in both halves. Could have spelled JC for 2 min before a timeout
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by pmcmullen View Post
I'd put a halftone beer on FP not being a Flyer next season. We saw this tactic before...
I don't think this is the case. The Matos injury may linger. FP will be used more than he was tonight. Simply short on the bench.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:53 AM
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What in the world was that bullcrap about Frankie being too thin to play this year? He certainly looked like the body of most D1 players.

I like his court awareness and D in limited time.
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