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  #201  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Fox can't really make the Big East do anything. The contract is for another ten years whether the Big East expands or not. There is really no way they can compel the BE to expand. Besides, expansion would actually require Fox to spend even more money, so there's a good chance they really don't want the league to expand. Fox did not get some of the teams they wanted the first time. You're overestimating how much pull they really have. They signed a twelve year contract and they're kind of stuck with it regardless of what happens.
Money talks. If you were in the administration of the current teams in the NBE that you would be guaranteed more money per year and all you had to do is add teams x and y, would you do it?
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  #202  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Fox can't really make the Big East do anything. The contract is for another ten years whether the Big East expands or not. There is really no way they can compel the BE to expand. Besides, expansion would actually require Fox to spend even more money, so there's a good chance they really don't want the league to expand. Fox did not get some of the teams they wanted the first time. You're overestimating how much pull they really have. They signed a twelve year contract and they're kind of stuck with it regardless of what happens.
Interesting. A contract with no outs and no contingency clauses and no adjustments and nothing but flat-out compliance and here we go Mama and let the chips fall where they may for the next twelve years.

Twelve years! In TV time that is an eternity, unless you are talking primo inventory like the NCAA Tournament, or the World Series, or the Olympics, and none of those is the NBE schedule by any stretch.

Plus you say, Fox didn't get some of the teams they wanted "the first time?"
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  #203  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dillomernda View Post
Money talks. If you were in the administration of the current teams in the NBE that you would be guaranteed more money per year and all you had to do is add teams x and y, would you do it?
Perhaps, but in this particular agreement the amount of money that each of the ten current schools would get from Fox would still be the same. So, from a financial standpoint, there is no incentive whatsoever to expand.


Originally Posted by bobber View Post
Interesting. A contract with no outs and no contingency clauses and no adjustments and nothing but flat-out compliance and here we go Mama and let the chips fall where they may for the next twelve years.

Twelve years! In TV time that is an eternity, unless you are talking primo inventory like the NCAA Tournament, or the World Series, or the Olympics, and none of those is the NBE schedule by any stretch.

Plus you say, Fox didn't get some of the teams they wanted "the first time?"
Yeah, pretty much. If Fox opts out and drops the conference, the Big East would still get all the money. The only real contingency is the league expands to twelve teams, then the overall payout will be $600 million instead of $500 million, which doesn't increase the overall amount that each of the current schools would be getting.

The Fox Sports Network already had Creighton because FSN Midwest had the deal with the Missouri Valley. They were paying the MVC about $6.5 million a year, and Creighton was one of the better teams the league had. The Big East adding Creighton meant that Fox's deal with the Missouri Valley suddenly wasn't as attractive, AND they would have to give $50 million dollars to a team they were already able to broadcast instead of getting a team from a conference that wasn't already under contract with Fox. They kinda lost on both ends. Fox wanted someone else, but the Big East went with Creighton anyway.

I'm not saying the deal isn't a little ridiculous. I'm just saying it is what it is, and Fox is kind of stuck with it. There was a reason other networks didn't even make an offer once they learned what Fox offered.

Last edited by xubrew; 09-25-2015 at 12:56 AM..
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  #204  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Perhaps, but in this particular agreement the amount of money that each of the ten current schools would get from Fox would still be the same. So, from a financial standpoint, there is no incentive whatsoever to expand.




Yeah, pretty much. If Fox opts out and drops the conference, the Big East would still get all the money. The only real contingency is the league expands to twelve teams, then the overall payout will be $600 million instead of $500 million, which doesn't increase the overall amount that each of the current schools would be getting.

The Fox Sports Network already had Creighton because FSN Midwest had the deal with the deal with the Missouri Valley. They were paying the MVC about $6.5 million a year, and Creighton was one of the better teams the league had. The Big East adding Creighton meant that Fox's deal with the Missouri Valley suddenly wasn't as attractive, AND they would have to give $50 million dollars to a team they were already able to broadcast instead of getting a team from a conference that wasn't already under contract with Fox. They kinda lost on both ends. Fox wanted someone else, but the Big East went with Creighton anyway.

I'm not saying the deal isn't a little ridiculous. I'm just saying it is what it is, and Fox is kind of stuck with it. There was a reason other networks didn't even make an offer once they learned Fox offered.
Well, I guess. Fox's offer was untouchable.
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  #205  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:54 AM
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Fox did not guaranty the NBE which games will be on TV, or when those games will be broadcast. How would the NBE feel if Fox decided to show a steady diet of DePaul and Seton Hall and whoever the bottom feeders of that conference happen to be? How about if these terrible match-ups were put up against big rivalry games from the major conferences on ESPN and other more relevant TV channels? They can run that conference's reputation into the ground and make them even less attractive a TV product than they already are. The NBE is best served doing what Fox tells them to do whether they like it or not, plain and simple.
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  #206  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
Fox did not guaranty the NBE which games will be on TV, or when those games will be broadcast. How would the NBE feel if Fox decided to show a steady diet of DePaul and Seton Hall and whoever the bottom feeders of that conference happen to be? How about if these terrible match-ups were put up against big rivalry games from the major conferences on ESPN and other more relevant TV channels? They can run that conference's reputation into the ground and make them even less attractive a TV product than they already are. The NBE is best served doing what Fox tells them to do whether they like it or not, plain and simple.
Uhhh, yes they did. Fox agreed to make all conference games available, and all home non-conference games available.

But, let's pretend that they didn't. You're suggesting that it would be a good business practice for Fox to try and strong arm the Big East into expanding by basically kamikazing their own network's ratings by showing crappy games. And.....that would accomplish what exactly??

The Big East DIDN'T do what Fox wanted when they added Creighton. Yet, they're still getting the money and all the games are still on TV. Fox isn't in a position to really compel the Big East to do anything. I don't know why you or anyone else would be under the impression that they are.
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  #207  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber View Post
The NBE is clinging to "major" conference status after its first two years. But barely.

And they do it in a simple way. Because of the TV money -- from Fox -- even their weakest schools can pay for wins at home. Just like the big boys do. And since they can do that, they don't have to go on the road out-of-conference just to get a paycheck (with the attendant loss) like some schools at the bottom of the A10 do to balance their athletic budget. So, all the teams in the NBE come into conference play with great won-lost records. And then they play each other and the impact of one 11-2 team playing another 9-4 team starts to work its RPI magic. This is a trick the big boys have used forever. If you have the money, you can do it.

So, where does it all come out in the wash? In the NCAA Tournament, is where.

The NBE has a less than stellar NCAA record after two tries. Three strikes and, maybe, the prized 'major' consideration they crave might be in jeopardy.

Oh! Did I mention the ratings for their games on FS-1 are ..... let's be charitable ..... less than ...wait for it .... Robust.
The Big East was the 3rd best conference in 2014-2015 beating the Pac-12, Big Ten, and SEC. In 2013-2014, the Big East was the 5th best conference beating the SEC. All according to kenpom.com. The difference between the top 6 conferences which clearly includes the Big East based upon its performance and the 7th best conference is massive -- the drop off has been huge. The A10 (which was #7 in 2014-2015) was closer to the MAC than the Big East.

Let's not buy into the conventional wisdom about the Big East peforming poorly.
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  #208  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Uhhh, yes they did. Fox agreed to make all conference games available, and all home non-conference games available.

But, let's pretend that they didn't. You're suggesting that it would be a good business practice for Fox to try and strong arm the Big East into expanding by basically kamikazing their own network's ratings by showing crappy games. And.....that would accomplish what exactly??

The Big East DIDN'T do what Fox wanted when they added Creighton. Yet, they're still getting the money and all the games are still on TV. Fox isn't in a position to really compel the Big East to do anything. I don't know why you or anyone else would be under the impression that they are.
The NBE on Fox is a terrible money losing business. It can't get much worse from a dollars and cents perspective than it already is. Fox has very little to lose, and if the NBE does not jump when Fox says jump, they have all the incentive in the world to do what they need to do to protect what's left of their investment.

What would that accomplish you ask? It gives them a chance to salvage a few pennies on the dollar from what so far has proven to be a terrible investment.
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
The NBE on Fox is a terrible money losing business. It can't get much worse from a dollars and cents perspective than it already is. Fox has very little to lose, and if the NBE does not jump when Fox says jump, they have all the incentive in the world to do what they need to do to protect what's left of their investment.

What would that accomplish you ask? It gives them a chance to salvage a few pennies on the dollar from what so far has proven to be a terrible investment.
You think that they'll salvage a few pennies by LOWERING the ratings?? Gee, great plan! So, I guess you anticipate the sponsors and advertisers who buy up the commercial time will somehow increase if the ratings decrease.

And, again, the Big East didn't do what Fox wanted, yet all the games are still on and all the money is still there.

As someone else said, it was the #3 rated conference, they have teams in big media markets, they had seven different teams in the top 25 throughout the regular season last year, and they sent six teams to the NCAA Tournament. Perhaps the problem isn't the Big East. Perhaps the reason for the low ratings is because Fox does a very **** poor job of marketing the conference. Big cities with top 25 teams should be an easy sell, yet they barely put any games on the flagship network, and barely market the conference or Fox Sports on the flagship network. Since you don't think much of Fox's business practices, I guess it isn't too much of a jump to think poorly of how they market themselves and the conference as well.
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  #210  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:44 AM
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They would salvage the pennies by adding teams that can help improve the anemic ratings, and if they have to take a step back to take two steps forward, I think they would do it.

The bottom line from my perspective is that neither Fox nor the NBE are as high and mighty as they think they are. I don't wish them ill, but I want nothing to do with either. I hope the U sees it the same way.
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  #211  
Old 09-25-2015, 02:02 AM
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I don't think Fox is high and mighty at all. That was my whole point. They're not in a position to where they can strong arm the Big East into doing anything. I still don't see how intentionally tanking the ratings is supposed to make the Big East want to expand, but since they agreed in the contract to televise all the games then only showing crappy games isn't really an option either. Not that I think they'd be stupid enough to try something like that if it were an option, but it's not, so I guess it doesn't matter.
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
As someone else said, it was the #3 rated conference, they have teams in big media markets, they had seven different teams in the top 25 throughout the regular season last year, and they sent six teams to the NCAA Tournament. Perhaps the problem isn't the Big East. Perhaps the reason for the low ratings is because Fox does a very **** poor job of marketing the conference. Big cities with top 25 teams should be an easy sell, yet they barely put any games on the flagship network, and barely market the conference or Fox Sports on the flagship network. Since you don't think much of Fox's business practices, I guess it isn't too much of a jump to think poorly of how they market themselves and the conference as well.
The fan bases of some of these BE schools are not large enough to justify the value of this contract, they would be smart to add UD with its great fan base and great arena, along with the fact that UD is clearly trending up.

Nobody other than Creighton, Marquette, and Xavier seem to really draw well.

Not Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, or Butler.

Last edited by ud2; 09-25-2015 at 11:10 AM..
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  #213  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Fox did not get some of the teams they wanted the first time.
Again, who? Or perhaps this is simply speculation.
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  #214  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:38 AM
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the NBE shipped has sailed and it is not coming back to a port near you.
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  #215  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
The fan bases of some of these BE schools are not large enough to justify the value of this contract, they would be smart to add UD with its great fan base and great arena, along with the fact that UD is clearly trending up.

Nobody other than Creighton, Marquette, and Xavier seem to really draw well.

Not Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, or Butler.
Yeah, adding UD would have been smart for Fox. That's who they wanted to add. Adding Creighton was stupid for Fox, but very smart for Marquette, because Creighton's president is on Marquette's board of trustees. The fact that Creighton still got in goes to show you that Fox doesn't really have all that much pull.

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Again, who? Or perhaps this is simply speculation.
I'm pretty sure Dayton was their top choice. I had said who multiple times in what I thought was this thread, but I guess it was another thread talking about the Big East, or playing Xavier, or something.

Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
the NBE shipped has sailed and it is not coming back to a port near you.
It has for now, but it may come back some day. I'm against expansion because of all the reasons I listed above, but that doesn't mean it won't ever happen. It just won't happen simply because Fox wants it to happen, that's all. I'd be against ADDING Dayton because I wouldn't want the league to add anyone, but I'd be all for REPLACING one of the other schools with Dayton. Unfortunately I don't think that's really possible.
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  #216  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:24 PM
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Well, getting some confirmation that the old-boy Jesuit network pulled off a fast one at our expense is at least somewhat satisfying. I think we all pretty much knew that was what happened. The article in the Omaha paper several months after it happened was pretty straight on. Creighton got in the back door with a wink and a handshake and wasn't even being considered seriously until Marquette decided to keep the money in the family.

It's also scary. Scary in the sense that if we were ever invited to join the NBE we'd be subject to that same kind of serendipity, makes no sense, old boy network leadership. We will never be Jesuit (thank God) and will always be a second class citizen.
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  #217  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber View Post
Well, getting some confirmation that the old-boy Jesuit network pulled off a fast one at our expense is at least somewhat satisfying. .......
Thank God for small favors! The new Big Least is the proverbial "pig in a polk"..... Not what you all think it is!
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:29 PM
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Take the blinkers off. They are elite, they are just marketed poorly. Fox has this habit.
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  #219  
Old 09-26-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Take the blinkers off. They are elite, they are just marketed poorly. Fox has this habit.
They think they are Elite. What they actually are is BE-lite
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  #220  
Old 09-27-2015, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Take the blinkers off. They are elite, they are just marketed poorly. Fox has this habit.
They may be "elite" for a little longer. But, as I mentioned before, the momentum they had two years ago is definitely slowing. Another year with fantastic conference RPI numbers and five teams in the dance but not one team getting to the Elite Eight will expose the NBE.

The rest of the college basketball world is already somewhat po'ed by an NBE team getting a #1 Seed in the Tournament, then demonstrating they were vastly over seeded, losing in the first round, yet. If they are so elite please explain how their best team...by far...was a one and done?

http://www.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2..._nc_state.html

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/vill...tate-no-1-seed

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Old 09-27-2015, 12:04 PM
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Two years ago the league had no momentum at all. The national narrative was that it wasn't the old Big East, and they were playing on a network that almost no one watched. They got four teams into the NCAAs, but one got in via the automatic bid and likely wouldn't have made it without it, and the other (Xavier) didn't get to the round of 64.

I think the league has far more momentum now than it did then. Yeah, if they don't get teams into the rankings, into the NCAA Tournament, and they don't win once they are in the NCAA Tournament then the perception of the league will decline. That's true for every league, so I don't think their position is any more or less pivotal than any other conference. The Pac Ten/Twelve was considered sub-elite for several years prior to last year.

The following type of analysis actually makes me laugh.....

"If Conference X can't get teams to the tournament and to the Elite Eight, then they're in trouble of no longer being Elite."

Uhhh, wow. Really insightful. You could say that about anyone. Any conference that does that will be considered elite, and any conference that doesn't do that won't be. So, essentially, this is a roundabout way of saying the Big East is in the same boat as everyone else.
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:50 PM
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As I see it, the problem the NBE, and A-10, MVC, for that matter, is that the teams making up these conferences are at best regional teams( Gtown and maybe Nova could be exceptions) Trying to project them as national interest teams is difficult. Adding UD and/or SLU to the NBE won't change that. Year in and year out the NBE will probably be stronger than the A-10, last year they were, the year before not so much. From a financial standpoint the NBE is stronger. From a competitive point the Flyers would probably be ok in either conference. From an academic standpoint the Flyers would benefit from a move to the NBE. As we have seen these past two years though, a successful team is the best path to success, regardless of conference affiliation.
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  #223  
Old 09-27-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
As I see it, the problem the NBE, and A-10, MVC, for that matter, is that the teams making up these conferences are at best regional teams( Gtown and maybe Nova could be exceptions) Trying to project them as national interest teams is difficult. Adding UD and/or SLU to the NBE won't change that. Year in and year out the NBE will probably be stronger than the A-10, last year they were, the year before not so much. From a financial standpoint the NBE is stronger. From a competitive point the Flyers would probably be ok in either conference. From an academic standpoint the Flyers would benefit from a move to the NBE. As we have seen these past two years though, a successful team is the best path to success, regardless of conference affiliation.
Interesting thought.

I think another disadvantage is that schools without football have their brand out there for a much shorter period of time than schools with football. Right now, Ohio State, Oregon, Stanford, Ole Miss, UCLA, Kansas State, Texas, Oklahoma, etc are all in the consciousness of the general American sports fan. Georgetown, Dayton, Xavier, VCU, SLU, etc, are not. They don't start playing until November, and even then they're brand is only out there to the diehard basketball fans because most of the games are buy games.

I think even schools like Memphis, Cincinnati, UConn, and even FCS schools like Villanova, benefit from it. Their brand may not be out there to the general sports fan on a national level the way Ohio State is, but at least their brand is out there to their own constituents and fan base. It's another even to bring boosters and donors to, and even though the crowds are 30,000 (or less) instead of 80,000, 30k people is still a huge assembly of people. No other campus activity assembles that many people. It's a huge advantage to be able to have that to sell your basketball program to.

Everyone says football drives the bus. I don't know if I ENTIRELY agree with that. I think football and basketball drives the bus, and having both is far more advantageous than having one. It's like mac and cheese, or peanut butter and jelly. If you only have one, then the one you do have probably isn't as good as it would be if you also had the other.

The basketball centric schools without scholarship football can't get their brand out there until November. And, because most schedule the way that they do, even at that point their brand is only out to the diehard basketball fans and not the general college sports fans. So, it really isn't until about January that you're brand really gets out there, and even then it's only if you're in the Top 25, and/or appearing in the weekly Bracketology. That's a disadvantage. I think it's a disadvantage that all the basketball centric schools would be better off recognizing and working together to overcome it. Play fewer crappy games. Get out there and play showcase games the way Gonzaga and Butler do (or at least the way Butler used to). If the top power five teams won't play you, then gee....here's a novel idea. PLAY EACH OTHER!!!! That's more intriguing to the general fan that a buy game, and unfortunately 70 percent of all OOC games that the basketball centric conferences play appear to be buy games.

My post from earlier in the thread. The Power Five is successful because they are good, but they're also doing something that no other group of conferences is doing. They're working together, and they're doing so with at least some understanding that what's better for the group as a whole is also better for the individual members.

This won't ever happen because everyone who could make it happen is to narcissistic to see how this would be a good idea, but.....

There are 44 teams in the four best basketball centric conferences (West Coast, Big East, Atlantic Ten, Missouri Valley). The West Coast kinda has a good thing going.

As for the 34 schools in the other three leagues, they could do a lot more to work together.

They could realign into four conferences with true round robins and a structure that enhances both regional and traditional rivalries.

We could call it the Basketball Five. Actually, that's a bad name. We'd need a less stupid name, but you get the idea. I just can't think of anything else right now.

Get creative. Have "Challenges" to kick off the season where conferences are matched up against one another. Do a bracket buster type format later in the year where it's an unscheduled game, but the best teams will be matched up against each other in late February.

COLLECTIVELY negotiate a TV deal. With 44 teams, we could negotiate a very impressive TV deal that involves more than one major network, and would ensure not just money, but exposure.

In case you haven't noticed by my other posts in other threads, I think college basketball could be and should be so much better. The biggest basketball centric schools coming together and deciding that they all want to work together to make college basketball better would be great for the game, and for the schools. I really believe that.

I'm also under no delusions whatsoever that it will ever happen.
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  #224  
Old 09-27-2015, 03:12 PM
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You can slice it and dice it any way you want but the simple reality is this: the NBE's peer group is the A10 and MVC, not the Big 5. The endless discussions about the NBE and the comparison to the A10 here and elsewhere are just about shades of grey.
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Old 09-27-2015, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
You can slice it and dice it any way you want but the simple reality is this: the NBE's peer group is the A10 and MVC, not the Big 5. The endless discussions about the NBE and the comparison to the A10 here and elsewhere are just about shades of grey.
To me, it's not about whether or not the Big East is in the same pear group as the Power Five. It's about not doing something that I feel has been proven not to work.

You can slice it however you want, but expansion will do absolutely nothing to raise the profile of the league, or to make it so a higher percentage of teams make the NCAA Tournament. No league has gotten a higher percentage of teams in the NCAA Tournament since expanding to an unbalanced/non-Round Robin format has gotten a higher percentage of teams in than they did before they expanded. As a sixteen team league, the Big East only got half its teams one time. I don't think the ACC has ever done it since going to 12 and then 14. But, as mentioned above, as a nine team league they got five or more teams into the NCAA Tournament six times in their last eleven years. They actually got 6 out of the 9 in four times. There isn't a single example of a conference being better off after expanding past ten teams. Not one. As good as the ACC is, it will be extremely rare for them to get more than half their teams in the tournament now. That's something they used to do more than half the time.

...and if that isn't enough, the Big Twelve actually got BETTER, when it went from twelve teams down to ten.

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  #226  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
You can slice it and dice it any way you want but the simple reality is this: the NBE's peer group is the A10 and MVC, not the Big 5. The endless discussions about the NBE and the comparison to the A10 here and elsewhere are just about shades of grey.
5th best conference in 2013-2014 and 3rd best in 2014-2015, but closer to A-10 and MVC?!!??!? Numbers below are kenpom.com from 2014-2015. The A-10 and MVC were closer to the MAC then they were to the Big East. All the Big East has lacked has been some strong NCAA runs in their first 2 years, but NCAA runs are often more about luck and randomness than anything else.

I respect your posts Frisco Flyer, but the facts show the Big East is one of the power 6 conferences and then there is a huge drop off to the A-10, MVC, AAC, and West Coast Conferences. I wish it were not so.

1 Big 12 Conference .8129
2 Atlantic Coast Conference .7949
3 Big East Conference .7809
4 Big Ten Conference .7736
5 Southeastern Conference .7495
6 Pac 12 Conference .7425
7 Atlantic 10 Conference .6067
8 Missouri Valley Conference .5823
9 West Coast Conference .5796
10 American Athletic Conference .5547
11 Mid American Conference .5320
12 Mountain West Conference .5131
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Old 09-27-2015, 05:28 PM
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Expansion does little for the Big East. And it does nothing but make Fox lose more money. Adding two teams increases the rights fees $100 million. No two teams can bring in that kind of ad money unless one of them is Notre Dame and that is doubtful - both in terms of how much viewership and ad money they bring and their joining.

I agree with the post above. The Big East is mostly smallish private schools. Their following is largely regional and they lack large national alumni bases. Hence they don't attract large TV audiences. Expansion won't help that.

I don't see the Big East expanding. And when 10 years is up the TV money declines substantially in real dollars. Although demand for live programming may be so high that they can keep more than one might expect - and leagues like the A10 may see increases closing the gap somewhat.
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Old 09-27-2015, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
You can slice it however you want, but expansion will do absolutely nothing to raise the profile of the league, or to make it so a higher percentage of teams make the NCAA Tournament. No league has gotten a higher percentage of teams in the NCAA Tournament since expanding to an unbalanced/non-Round Robin format has gotten a higher percentage of teams in than they did before they expanded.
You keep saying that conferences that have expanded don't get a higher percentage of teams into the NCAA Tournament. To me the percentage is irrelevant. What matters is the total number of teams a conference gets into the tournament. The more teams you have in your conference, the more teams you are likely to get into the tournament. The more teams you have in the tournament, the better chance you have of teams advancing, and thus the more publicity you get and the more credibility you have. The more teams that get in the tournament and advance, the higher the profile of the conference.

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  #229  
Old 09-27-2015, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You keep saying that conferences that have expanded don't get a higher percentage of teams into the NCAA Tournament. To me the percentage is irrelevant. What matters is the total number of teams a conference gets into the tournament. The more teams you have in the tournament, the better chance you have of teams advancing, and thus the more publicity you get and the more credibility you have. The more teams that get in the tournament and advance, the higher profile the conference.
I really don't see it that way. The higher the percentage is, the greater the chances for each individual team are. The greater the chances for each individual team, the easier it is for that team to grow their profile.

The conferences that have expanded have not raised their profiles to a higher level than they were at before. The ACC, SEC, Mountain West, Atlantic Ten, Pac Twelve, Big Ten, Conference USA, or Metro Atlantic do not have a higher profile since expanding than they did when they played a true double round robin. Well, I guess CUSA never did, but expanding the league certainly didn't raise its profile any. At best those leagues have the same profiles, but now they have the same profiles with a smaller percentage of teams making the NCAA Tournament. In some cases, the profile has actually declined. Yet, the Big Twelve's profile has improved since going down to a single division that plays a true double round robin.

It's not just NCAA appearances either. Attendance and ratings have dropped since realignment/expansion became such a big thing. College basketball's overall profile has dropped.

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Old 09-27-2015, 08:14 PM
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For years the Big East got more teams in than other conferences, but none of the talking heads would point that they had more teams than the other conferences. Pointing out percentage of teams in conference to make the tourney only exists in message board fodder.
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  #231  
Old 09-27-2015, 08:32 PM
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I don't even think it qualifies as message board fodder. Everyone thinks that expansion fixes everything, and conferences that don't expand will wither away into nothing. The reality is that the leagues that have expanded are no better off and in many cases aren't as well off as they were before. The leagues that haven't expanded are doing just fine. So, what's the point??

A league's "profile" or "status" is also nothing more than message board fodder. As a team, you want the best possible chance of making the NCAA Tournament. Period. There is not one example of expansion having increased a team's chances of making it. Not one. The opposite is actually true. So, why do it?? Because of what some of the talking heads say??
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  #232  
Old 09-28-2015, 06:43 AM
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The Big East model before the breakup was for every team, top to bottom, to schedule winnable non-con games. They undrstood the average winning percentage in conference would be .500, so you need every team to win out of conference, thus every conference game looks like a higher RPI game. At the same time, the A10 told it's team to schedule tougher games which caused more non-con losses. This lowered the strength of schedule for conference games as teams had lower RPIs.
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber View Post
The NBE is clinging to "major" conference status after its first two years. But barely.

And they do it in a simple way. Because of the TV money -- from Fox -- even their weakest schools can pay for wins at home. Just like the big boys do. And since they can do that, they don't have to go on the road out-of-conference just to get a paycheck (with the attendant loss) like some schools at the bottom of the A10 do to balance their athletic budget. So, all the teams in the NBE come into conference play with great won-lost records. And then they play each other and the impact of one 11-2 team playing another 9-4 team starts to work its RPI magic. This is a trick the big boys have used forever. If you have the money, you can do it.

So, where does it all come out in the wash? In the NCAA Tournament, is where.

The NBE has a less than stellar NCAA record after two tries. Three strikes and, maybe, the prized 'major' consideration they crave might be in jeopardy.

Oh! Did I mention the ratings for their games on FS-1 are ..... let's be charitable ..... less than ...wait for it .... Robust.
Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
The Big East model before the breakup was for every team, top to bottom, to schedule winnable non-con games. They undrstood the average winning percentage in conference would be .500, so you need every team to win out of conference, thus every conference game looks like a higher RPI game. At the same time, the A10 told it's team to schedule tougher games which caused more non-con losses. This lowered the strength of schedule for conference games as teams had lower RPIs.
I don't think it is that simple, don't the BE schools seem to win a higher percentage of the fewer tough OOC games that they play as compared to the A10's OOC winning percentage?
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Old 09-28-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
The Big East model before the breakup was for every team, top to bottom, to schedule winnable non-con games. They undrstood the average winning percentage in conference would be .500, so you need every team to win out of conference, thus every conference game looks like a higher RPI game. At the same time, the A10 told it's team to schedule tougher games which caused more non-con losses. This lowered the strength of schedule for conference games as teams had lower RPIs.
One of the first things Bernie did was to let it be known the A10 membership would not tolerate teams going on the road for a paycheck. There are very few buy games in the A10 anymore and the ones that they have make sense for more reasons than the cash they provide. In fact, Bernie has also encouraged the lower tier teams to schedule competitive home-and-home series. The problem is they can't frickin' win enough them. The NBE doesn't have to schedule those same teams at their place. They can afford to write them a check as a buy game. That is really the biggest difference between the A10 and NBE.
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I don't even think it qualifies as message board fodder. Everyone thinks that expansion fixes everything, and conferences that don't expand will wither away into nothing. The reality is that the leagues that have expanded are no better off and in many cases aren't as well off as they were before. The leagues that haven't expanded are doing just fine. So, what's the point??

A league's "profile" or "status" is also nothing more than message board fodder. As a team, you want the best possible chance of making the NCAA Tournament. Period. There is not one example of expansion having increased a team's chances of making it. Not one. The opposite is actually true. So, why do it?? Because of what some of the talking heads say??
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League expansion has been driven by football, with little to no regard to basketball. Those BCS conferences that expanded are better off now than they were before, while the Big 12 and the Big East/AAC are worse off now than before. That's not even debatable. On the merit of expanding for basketball purposes, take the Big East expansion in 2005. More bids, higher percentage of teams with a bid, etc., all enhanced the status and perception of the league.
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  #236  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
League expansion has been driven by football, with little to no regard to basketball. Those BCS conferences that expanded are better off now than they were before, while the Big 12 and the Big East/AAC are worse off now than before. That's not even debatable. On the merit of expanding for basketball purposes, take the Big East expansion in 2005. More bids, higher percentage of teams with a bid, etc., all enhanced the status and perception of the league.
Improved the status and perception?? The Big East was considered one of the strongest, if not the strongest, basketball conferences prior to swelling out to sixteen teams. The status of the league did not improve.

Yes, league expansion had nothing to do with basketball. If it had, then almost none of the leagues would have expanded because none of the basketball schools really wanted to. Once they did expand, the basketball did not improve, the league status did not improve, and a smaller percentage of teams were making the tournament. To suggest that the Big East, Big Ten and ACC were not considered top notch basketball conferences before they expanded is ridiculous. Attendance, ratings, and overall interest in those leagues was actually higher from the 1980s up until 2004 or so. If you watched Requiem for the Big East, the general consensus from those who were a part of the classic Big East was that expansion pretty much ruined everything.

Look, if you like the idea of being in a bloated league that doesn't have a balanced schedule as opposed to one that is able to play a true double round robin, then you're probably better off in the Atlantic Ten. That seems to be their philosophy. I strongly prefer the single division true round robin format. I think it has been definitively proven to be the best format for establishing rivalry, interest, and for giving teams the best chance of making the NCAA Tournament. I'd be against expansion if it means having to change that format. Period.

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  #237  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:04 AM
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Old 09-29-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Improved the status and perception?? The Big East was considered one of the strongest, if not the strongest, basketball conferences prior to swelling out to sixteen teams. The status of the league did not improve.

Yes, league expansion had nothing to do with basketball. If it had, then almost none of the leagues would have expanded because none of the basketball schools really wanted to. Once they did expand, the basketball did not improve, the league status did not improve, and a smaller percentage of teams were making the tournament. To suggest that the Big East, Big Ten and ACC were not considered top notch basketball conferences before they expanded is ridiculous. Attendance, ratings, and overall interest in those leagues was actually higher from the 1980s up until 2004 or so. If you watched Requiem for the Big East, the general consensus from those who were a part of the classic Big East was that expansion pretty much ruined everything.

Look, if you like the idea of being in a bloated league that doesn't have a balanced schedule as opposed to one that is able to play a true double round robin, then you're probably better off in the Atlantic Ten. That seems to be their philosophy. I strongly prefer the single division true round robin format. I think it has been definitively proven to be the best format for establishing rivalry, interest, and for giving teams the best chance of making the NCAA Tournament. I'd be against expansion if it means having to change that format. Period.
I never suggested that the Big East wasn't one of the strongest conferences before expansion. What I did suggest was that when they expanded they did become the strongest basketball conference. There may have been some debate before, but their wasn't any debate after. That would be considered enhancing the status of the league by most.

Again, when did I ever suggest that the Big East, Big Ten and ACC were not considered top notch basketball conferences before they expanded? It's ridiculous that you even thought I hinted at that.

What I have suggested is that there is merit for expansion in terms of enhancing the profile of league in a given sport. We have seen it in football. We have seen it in the past in basketball. None of that means that the right of course action for the NBE is to expand. One could make an argument for either course of action.
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  #239  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I really don't see it that way. The higher the percentage is, the greater the chances for each individual team are. The greater the chances for each individual team, the easier it is for that team to grow their profile.

The conferences that have expanded have not raised their profiles to a higher level than they were at before. The ACC, SEC, Mountain West, Atlantic Ten, Pac Twelve, Big Ten, Conference USA, or Metro Atlantic do not have a higher profile since expanding than they did when they played a true double round robin. Well, I guess CUSA never did, but expanding the league certainly didn't raise its profile any. At best those leagues have the same profiles, but now they have the same profiles with a smaller percentage of teams making the NCAA Tournament. In some cases, the profile has actually declined. Yet, the Big Twelve's profile has improved since going down to a single division that plays a true double round robin.

It's not just NCAA appearances either. Attendance and ratings have dropped since realignment/expansion became such a big thing. College basketball's overall profile has dropped.
I think you're confusing "best chance of making the NCAA tournament" with "highest % of teams making the NCAA tournament." If Duke and UNC created a 2-team conference they would both make the tournament but that doesn't make it a smart move.

The Big 10, which used to be 10, includes Northwestern. How many times did they make the NCAA tournament, despite having the "best chance"? None. They have little to no chance at 10 with full round-robin play.

Do they have a worse chance of making the NCAA tournament now that the B10 has 14 teams? With 14, I think there's actually a better chance that NW will make the tournament because there's a possible confluence of events where:
1. The bottom 10 teams in the league are somewhat down,
2. NW is up, and
3. NW has some pre-conference success.

When that happens, NW might actually enter conference play 10-3, go 12-6 in conference with some favorable home / away / no-play matchups, and have a 22-9 season. With the right wins, they might actually get a play-in game and make their first ever tournament.

I think the same is materially true of the NBE. Creighton, Depaul, St. John's, and Seton Hall do NOT have a better chance of getting into the tournament in my opinion. They have a better chance of getting their brains beat in every year, because a "kind of good" year isn't going to be good enough to beat Villanova twice, but it might be good enough to beat them once (at home) and also beat enough mediocre teams to build up a good conference record. They're going to be cannon fodder for the top 4 teams in a 10 team conference.

Now, the 1 thing that 10 team leagues offer is that you get plenty of chances to improve your resume because you never "miss" the good teams. But in years where the committee takes the attitude "you've had your chance to prove how good you are, and it's not good enugh" you will be passed over for a smaller conference team with a great win %.
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Old 09-29-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
I never suggested that the Big East wasn't one of the strongest conferences before expansion. What I did suggest was that when they expanded they did become the strongest basketball conference. There may have been some debate before, but their wasn't any debate after. That would be considered enhancing the status of the league by most.
The Big East was the strongest basketball conference after expansion, except when it wasn't, which was every single year it existed in a sixteen team format. Not once was it the overall highest RPI conference or the highest conference in the majority of the power ratings.

As far as how the talking heads perceived the conference, it went from being considered one of the strongest conferences to being considered one of the strongest conferences. Same with the Big Ten. Same with the ACC. There was no increase in the value of the basketball brand. At best, it was the same as it was in the 1980s and 1990s. When the Big East was a single division league and sent three teams to the Final Four, it was the best conference and was considered the best conference. At no point did it surpass (or even match) that level of street cred after it expanded.

I just don't agree that expansion raises a conference's profile in basketball. I get it for football because having two divisions enables a league to have a championship game. I don't get it for basketball. Anyone who argues that the conferences that have expanded now have better brand names or higher profiles than they did before either didn't watch, or don't remember, what college basketball was like prior to expansion. It was actually far more popular, and those leagues actually had more eyes on them (as did the sport as a whole).

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Old 09-29-2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I think you're confusing "best chance of making the NCAA tournament" with "highest % of teams making the NCAA tournament." If Duke and UNC created a 2-team conference they would both make the tournament but that doesn't make it a smart move.

The Big 10, which used to be 10, includes Northwestern. How many times did they make the NCAA tournament, despite having the "best chance"? None. They have little to no chance at 10 with full round-robin play.

Do they have a worse chance of making the NCAA tournament now that the B10 has 14 teams? With 14, I think there's actually a better chance that NW will make the tournament because there's a possible confluence of events where:
1. The bottom 10 teams in the league are somewhat down,
2. NW is up, and
3. NW has some pre-conference success.

When that happens, NW might actually enter conference play 10-3, go 12-6 in conference with some favorable home / away / no-play matchups, and have a 22-9 season. With the right wins, they might actually get a play-in game and make their first ever tournament.

I think the same is materially true of the NBE. Creighton, Depaul, St. John's, and Seton Hall do NOT have a better chance of getting into the tournament in my opinion. They have a better chance of getting their brains beat in every year, because a "kind of good" year isn't going to be good enough to beat Villanova twice, but it might be good enough to beat them once (at home) and also beat enough mediocre teams to build up a good conference record. They're going to be cannon fodder for the top 4 teams in a 10 team conference.

Now, the 1 thing that 10 team leagues offer is that you get plenty of chances to improve your resume because you never "miss" the good teams. But in years where the committee takes the attitude "you've had your chance to prove how good you are, and it's not good enugh" you will be passed over for a smaller conference team with a great win %.
If what you're saying about Northwestern holds any water, then the only reason they would have a better chance of making the tournament is because they are playing more games that are winnable. This means that overall, the league must be weaker, does it not??

....and I think that's the problem. You have more weak teams and what went from being bitter rivalries on a weekly basis in the ACC, Big Ten, Big Eight, etc went to being something that was a lot more watered down and not nearly as exciting from start to finish. We've had this discussion before. The game isn't as popular as it used to be, and the conferences aren't as strong as they used to be, or at the very least aren't providing the level of intrigue and intensity that they used to.
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
The Big East was the strongest basketball conference after expansion, except when it wasn't, which was every single year it existed in a sixteen team format. Not once was it the overall highest RPI conference or the highest conference in the majority of the power ratings.

As far as how the talking heads perceived the conference, it went from being considered one of the strongest conferences to being considered one of the strongest conferences. Same with the Big Ten. Same with the ACC. There was no increase in the value of the basketball brand. At best, it was the same as it was in the 1980s and 1990s. When the Big East was a single division league and sent three teams to the Final Four, it was the best conference and was considered the best conference. At no point did it surpass (or even match) that level of street cred after it expanded.

I just don't agree that expansion raises a conference's profile in basketball. I get it for football because having two divisions enables a league to have a championship game. I don't get it for basketball. Anyone who argues that the conferences that have expanded now have better brand names or higher profiles than they did before either didn't watch, or don't remember, what college basketball was like prior to expansion. It was actually far more popular, and those leagues actually had more eyes on them (as did the sport as a whole).
Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
If what you're saying about Northwestern holds any water, then the only reason they would have a better chance of making the tournament is because they are playing more games that are winnable. This means that overall, the league must be weaker, does it not??

....and I think that's the problem. You have more weak teams and what went from being bitter rivalries on a weekly basis in the ACC, Big Ten, Big Eight, etc went to being something that was a lot more watered down and not nearly as exciting from start to finish. We've had this discussion before. The game isn't as popular as it used to be, and the conferences aren't as strong as they used to be, or at the very least aren't providing the level of intrigue and intensity that they used to.
OK, I think you're also confusing expansion with reshuffling. Let's say the A10 dropped Fordham, St. Weldaventure, LaSalle, and Richmond. Would the A10 (now at 10 teams) suddenly be more intriguing, or more watchable? NO! That's not because we have 14 teams it's because we have Davidson, VCU, George Mason, and St. Louis that have all joined the league in the last 9 years. Meanwhile we lost the biggest rivalry in the conference, UD vs. _avier.

The ACC isn't less intriguing because they added teams, it's because they lost teams. Same for the BE. That's reshuffling, not expansion.

Overall I agree with the issue of a lack of big rivalries, but, this has been a 1-way street recently. What if the BE expanded but added Pitt, ND, Syracuse? That would be expansion in a good way IMO--and disproves the argument that expansion is the problem. It's WHO is being added in expansion. South Florida is no one's natural rival.

Also: no is the answer to your question about the league being weaker. If there are 10 teams in a league and 6 make the NCAA, and there are 14 teams in another league and 7 make the NCAA, it does not mean that the first league is stronger. Unbalanced schedules, more even talent from top to bottom, etc. could all make the 2nd league stronger. It's more complicated than "6/10 vs. 7/14".

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Old 09-29-2015, 01:22 PM
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Okay, you didn't really use Fordham in your example did you??

Dropping Fordham makes the league far more intriguing, far more watchable, and far more likely to achieve the gold standards of conferences. Dropping Fordham is recommended by the surgeon general, and correctly so.

I get your point about who is added. I also don't think there is anyone the Big East could add that would actually want to join the league that would make it worth getting away from a ten team single division format.

When the ACC added Miami, BC and VA Tech, I do think the level of intrigue went down. Duke, UNC, Wake, NC State, Maryand, Virginia, Clemson and GA Tech. There were nine teams in the league, and eight of them absolutely hated each other. Virtually every game was great. Adding three teams to that meant adding games where teams didn't hate each other, while at the same time eliminating games that would have been played if it were still a true round robin. They essentially replaced some of the games that were highly appealing with games that were much less appealing. I get why they did it, and I agree that it was good overall in the sense that it created a championship football game. But strictly from a basketball standpoint, the league wasn't any better and was arguably not as good.
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:34 PM
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Somebody help me, what is being argued?
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Somebody help me, what is being argued?
The argument is whether or not the BigEast has a code of conduct and if it allows for them to add UD...or something like that.
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  #246  
Old 09-29-2015, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Okay, you didn't really use Fordham in your example did you??

Dropping Fordham makes the league far more intriguing, far more watchable, and far more likely to achieve the gold standards of conferences. Dropping Fordham is recommended by the surgeon general, and correctly so.

I get your point about who is added. I also don't think there is anyone the Big East could add that would actually want to join the league that would make it worth getting away from a ten team single division format.

When the ACC added Miami, BC and VA Tech, I do think the level of intrigue went down. Duke, UNC, Wake, NC State, Maryand, Virginia, Clemson and GA Tech. There were nine teams in the league, and eight of them absolutely hated each other. Virtually every game was great. Adding three teams to that meant adding games where teams didn't hate each other, while at the same time eliminating games that would have been played if it were still a true round robin. They essentially replaced some of the games that were highly appealing with games that were much less appealing. I get why they did it, and I agree that it was good overall in the sense that it created a championship football game. But strictly from a basketball standpoint, the league wasn't any better and was arguably not as good.
Now I think we're down to brass tacks. You're saying:

1. Expansion is not bad, expansion that includes random mashups of teams is bad.

2. Previous expansions have all created mashups and / or destroyed traditional rivalries. In other words, "they did it wrong." (Most things done wrong are wrong.)

3. You're not opposed to the NBE expanding, you're opposed to NBE expansion including UD.

So even though UD has a traditional rivalry with _avier that is regional at worst (matching the existing rivalries in the current NBE), as well as a clear reason that other rivalries would be quickly created (UD is a good team with Catholic roots like most NBE teams), you don't want UD added because you don't like UD.

Now we understand what you're saying.
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Old 09-29-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Now I think we're down to brass tacks. You're saying:

1. Expansion is not bad, expansion that includes random mashups of teams is bad.

2. Previous expansions have all created mashups and / or destroyed traditional rivalries. In other words, "they did it wrong." (Most things done wrong are wrong.)

3. You're not opposed to the NBE expanding, you're opposed to NBE expansion including UD.

So even though UD has a traditional rivalry with _avier that is regional at worst (matching the existing rivalries in the current NBE), as well as a clear reason that other rivalries would be quickly created (UD is a good team with Catholic roots like most NBE teams), you don't want UD added because you don't like UD.

Now we understand what you're saying.
I don't feel any differently now than I did several years ago. I'm against expanding. I want Dayton in the same conference, but not if it means expanding past nine or ten. I'm all four reshuffling, especially if it means realigning everyone so they're in a singular division. I alluded to that earlier in the thread. Twice, actually

When Xavier was in the Atlantic Ten, I was in strong favor of a split. So, I didn't suddenly come to this when Xavier landed in the Big East and Dayton didn't. I always felt this way. A quick search turned up these threads from several years ago....

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread...light=davidson

You have to go down the thread quite a ways, but here it is again....

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread...light=davidson


I've been a long time advocate of the single division, true round robin format. I felt then, and still feel now, that the core strength of the Atlantic Ten, which both Dayton and Xavier were a part of, should have been proactive and formed their own league instead of waiting around for the supposed Big East pie in the sky. But, now that Xavier finally has it, I don't want it to change. That has NOTHING to do with not wanting Dayton, and everything to do with not wanting more than ten. Hell, I didn't even want ten. I'd rather just have nine. I'd actually like it more if Xavier and Dayton were in the same conference, so long as it was a single division league that played a true round robin and consisted of traditional and regional rivals.
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Old 09-29-2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I don't feel any differently now than I did several years ago. I'm against expanding. I want Dayton in the same conference, but not if it means expanding past nine or ten. I'm all four reshuffling, especially if it means realigning everyone so they're in a singular division. I alluded to that earlier in the thread. Twice, actually

When Xavier was in the Atlantic Ten, I was in strong favor of a split. So, I didn't suddenly come to this when Xavier landed in the Big East and Dayton didn't. I always felt this way. A quick search turned up these threads from several years ago....

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread...light=davidson

You have to go down the thread quite a ways, but here it is again....

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread...light=davidson


I've been a long time advocate of the single division, true round robin format. I felt then, and still feel now, that the core strength of the Atlantic Ten, which both Dayton and Xavier were a part of, should have been proactive and formed their own league instead of waiting around for the supposed Big East pie in the sky. But, now that Xavier finally has it, I don't want it to change. That has NOTHING to do with not wanting Dayton, and everything to do with not wanting more than ten. Hell, I didn't even want ten. I'd rather just have nine. I'd actually like it more if Xavier and Dayton were in the same conference, so long as it was a single division league that played a true round robin and consisted of traditional and regional rivals.
I'm just messing with you.

I also favor the round robin style of conference, but I don't necessarily believe it creates the best opportunity for making the post season. It might, and it might not. But rivalries are created by playing teams 2x per year not 1x per year and sometimes not at all. That totally saps the life out of conference rivals.

Conference excitement is dying and no one seems to care.
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  #249  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post

Conference excitement is dying and no one seems to care.
It is all about the NCAA tourney. I think most on here feel the same way. When 4, 5, 6... teams make it from the same conference, how big of a deal is it to win the conference when everyone bases the success of the season on how far in the NCAA tourney the team went?
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Old 09-29-2015, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
It is all about the NCAA tourney. I think most on here feel the same way. When 4, 5, 6... teams make it from the same conference, how big of a deal is it to win the conference when everyone bases the success of the season on how far in the NCAA tourney the team went?
Yeah, but it's not as if it wasn't about the NCAA Tournament before. You get to the NCAA Tournament based on what you do during the regular season. You can't really say that it's all about the Sweet Sixteen, and therefore the rounds of 64 and 32 don't matter. That's how you get to the Sweet Sixteen.

The season leads into the NCAA Tournament, and it used to be tons better than it is now. Almost none of the changes, be it realignment or expansion, were done to make basketball better. And, it didn't make basketball better. They were done to inflate the value of the TV contracts, and given the drop in ratings and interest the long term results of that will probably be much smaller dollar amounts once these contracts expire.

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Old 09-29-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Yeah, but it's not as if it wasn't about the NCAA Tournament before. You get to the NCAA Tournament based on what you do during the regular season. You can't really say that it's all about the Sweet Sixteen, and therefore the rounds of 64 and 32 don't matter. That's how you get to the Sweet Sixteen.

The season leads into the NCAA Tournament, and it used to be tons better than it is now. Almost none of the changes, be it realignment or expansion, were done to make basketball better. And, it didn't make basketball better. They were done to inflate the value of the TV contracts, and given the drop in ratings and interest the long term results of that will probably be much smaller dollar amounts once these contracts expire.
Consumers are getting tired of $100+ monthly cable bills. Eventually everything will be a la carte. Then you will truly see what teams/conferences are most valued and what is the true value.
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Old 09-29-2015, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Almost none of the changes, be it realignment or expansion, were done to make basketball better. And, it didn't make basketball better.
That is why you can't compare the expansion of the Big 10 or ACC to the expansion of the New Big East or A-10, which is what you are doing. When the A-10 has expanded it has been done specifically to make basketball better (Butler, VCU, Davidson), and it has (obviously because football is not involved). If the Big East expanded it would be to make basketball better, and it probably would. And I would contend that the expansion of the Old Big East did raise its profile. I remember the media making a big deal of how many teams they were putting into the NCAA Tournament each year, especially 2010-11, when I believe they got 11 teams. They got HUGE publicity out of that. The number of teams a conference gets into the tournament does matter. The talking heads discuss it all the time on selection Sunday and during the tournament.
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  #253  
Old 09-29-2015, 07:57 PM
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Well, okay then. The Atlantic Ten is already at fourteen teams. If they're happy with that arrangement then who am I to tell them they're wrong?? I hated it at fourteen when Xavier was in it and wanted it to split into two different leagues for all the reasons I mentioned I don't know how many times. I still think now that it would be better if the core power of the Atlantic Ten looked at programs like Wichita, Belmont, Murray State (although they do have scholarship football), etc and considered splitting off to form their own eight or nine team league just like the Mountain West did to get away from the bloated WAC. Now the MWC is expanding again and may end up facing some of the exact same problems on the basketball side of things, but I digress.

If you feel the league can improve itself by expanding, then expand away. Go to sixteen, eighteen, or twenty if you so desire. I don't want the Big East to do that. I still think the basketball centric schools should get together and work together to help each other out, and I think one of the ways they could help each other is to do some reshuffling and realigning to form smaller single division leagues that preserve natural and regional rivals that are able to play double round robins (X, UD, SLU, But, Wichita, Creighton, Marq, Dep for instance). I'd like for that to happen, and I'd like for the Atlantic Ten to be a part of it. But, if they don't want to and would rather stay bloated and unbalanced, or for that matter expand again and become even more bloated and unbalanced, I sure as hell can't do anything to stop them and won't even try. I think it's a very bad idea, and I don't want the Big East to do it, but if the A10 sees things differently then hey, they can knock themselves out.

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Old 09-29-2015, 11:07 PM
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Xubrew; I think hell would freeze over before the Jesuit schools would entertain what you propose.
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Xubrew; I think hell would freeze over before the Jesuit schools would entertain what you propose.
Probably so. In their minds they already have everything they want and don't think anyone else can provide them with anything they don't already have.

Let's look at this, though (knowing that hell would indeed freeze over first)...

You've got the ten teams in the WCC (Gonzaga, SMC, BYU, USF, USD, Portland, Pacific (for whatever reason), LMU, Pepperdine, and I forget the other one and don't feel like looking it up.

SIU, UNI, Evansville, Indiana State, Illinois State, Bradley, SLU, Missouri State, Drake

Xavier, Dayton, Loyola CHI, DePaul, Marquette, Butler, Valpo (poach), Wichita, Creighton

VCU, Richmond, GW, GMU, Davidson, Johnnies, Seton Hall, Belmont (poach)

UMass, Rhody, Joe's, Nova, Georgetown, Providence, Bona, Siena (poach)


La Salle can take Siena's place in the MAAC, Duquesne can find a home in the Colonial, and as for Fordham....well, I don't really care what they do. They can reclassify to div2.


Now, as far as the specific lineups go you could debate it all day long, but you get the general idea. Five conferences. Five basketball centric conferences that can collectively work together.

How about an exempt tournament?? EVERY YEAR?? The rules are that you need at least five teams from five different conferences, and you can play up to four games within a twelve day span. Hell, we've got five conferences right here!! Every team can play in an exempt tournament every single year!! For those schools that can't get into the Maui, or the Advocare Classic, or the Battle 4 Atlantis, we'll just make our own exempt tournament. Hell, we could make several tournaments, actually, and we could collectively negotiate our own TV deals for those tournaments. Speaking of TV....

What if the Basketball Five (I still hate that name, but still haven't thought of anything better) took a page out of the NFL's playbook?? What if we negotiated one ginormous TV contract that we all collectively shared in?? It wouldn't necessarily be with one network. It would be like the NFL, and on a smaller scale the SEC, who has deals with multiple networks based on tiers. Hell, we have FIVE WHOLE CONFERENCES!! Just think of the tier system we'd be able to negotiate with the multiple networks!!! The majority of the games would not be on FS1, or on premium tier networks like NBC Sports or CBS Sports, I guarantee you that.

We could have a Bracket Buster type event where late in the year, there are one, or even two, unscheduled OOC games, and the teams are paired up based on strength. This would guarantee multiple quality inter conference match ups in late February when basketball is on page one all over the country.

Not to mention, the regional and natural rivalries would be preserved and enhanced all throughout conference play, we'd be able to manufacture good NCAA Tournament resumes with some of the cross conference play, including the unscheduled games late in the season, and we'd create five very good conference that work together where basketball, not football is THE game.

But, yeah, the Jesuit schools won't go for it because the already feel they've got everything they want, and no one seems to want to do anything that collectively helps anyone, even if they themselves would benefit from it. And, to be fair, most of the other schools that aren't Jesuit probably feel the same way.

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  #256  
Old 09-30-2015, 09:25 AM
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That the basketball only schools cooperate very little now is certainly a fact.

But when the P5 schools pull away from the NCAA and start their own organization -- complete with tournament-- it will be too late.

It's a train wreck...and likely it is coming in the next decade. When the current TV contract for the NCAA Tournament runs out, look out.
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Old 09-30-2015, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Probably so. In their minds they already have everything they want and don't think anyone else can provide them with anything they don't already have.

Let's look at this, though (knowing that hell would indeed freeze over first)...

You've got the ten teams in the WCC (Gonzaga, SMC, BYU, USF, USD, Portland, Pacific (for whatever reason), LMU, Pepperdine, and I forget the other one and don't feel like looking it up.

SIU, UNI, Evansville, Indiana State, Illinois State, Bradley, SLU, Missouri State, Drake

Xavier, Dayton, Loyola CHI, DePaul, Marquette, Butler, Valpo (poach), Wichita, Creighton

VCU, Richmond, GW, GMU, Davidson, Johnnies, Seton Hall, Belmont (poach)

UMass, Rhody, Joe's, Nova, Georgetown, Providence, Bona, Siena (poach)


La Salle can take Siena's place in the MAAC, Duquesne can find a home in the Colonial, and as for Fordham....well, I don't really care what they do. They can reclassify to div2.


Now, as far as the specific lineups go you could debate it all day long, but you get the general idea. Five conferences. Five basketball centric conferences that can collectively work together.

How about an exempt tournament?? EVERY YEAR?? The rules are that you need at least five teams from five different conferences, and you can play up to four games within a twelve day span. Hell, we've got five conferences right here!! Every team can play in an exempt tournament every single year!! For those schools that can't get into the Maui, or the Advocare Classic, or the Battle 4 Atlantis, we'll just make our own exempt tournament. Hell, we could make several tournaments, actually, and we could collectively negotiate our own TV deals for those tournaments. Speaking of TV....

What if the Basketball Five (I still hate that name, but still haven't thought of anything better) took a page out of the NFL's playbook?? What if we negotiated one ginormous TV contract that we all collectively shared in?? It wouldn't necessarily be with one network. It would be like the NFL, and on a smaller scale the SEC, who has deals with multiple networks based on tiers. Hell, we have FIVE WHOLE CONFERENCES!! Just think of the tier system we'd be able to negotiate with the multiple networks!!! The majority of the games would not be on FS1, or on premium tier networks like NBC Sports or CBS Sports, I guarantee you that.

We could have a Bracket Buster type event where late in the year, there are one, or even two, unscheduled OOC games, and the teams are paired up based on strength. This would guarantee multiple quality inter conference match ups in late February when basketball is on page one all over the country.

Not to mention, the regional and natural rivalries would be preserved and enhanced all throughout conference play, we'd be able to manufacture good NCAA Tournament resumes with some of the cross conference play, including the unscheduled games late in the season, and we'd create five very good conference that work together where basketball, not football is THE game.

But, yeah, the Jesuit schools won't go for it because the already feel they've got everything they want, and no one seems to want to do anything that collectively helps anyone, even if they themselves would benefit from it. And, to be fair, most of the other schools that aren't Jesuit probably feel the same way.
Wow, you spend a lot of time writing on a Dayton message board.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:24 PM
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So apparently brew would argue that the Big East's profile would not be raised and the conference wouldn't be stronger if they added Gonzaga and Wichita State, or even Notre Dame and UConn. That would ruin the double round robin format and screw up the conference.

Edit: He would also have to argue that the additions of Butler (although short-lived), VCU, and Davidson have done nothing to help the A-10.

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Old 09-30-2015, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So apparently brew would argue that the Big East's profile would not be raised and the conference wouldn't be stronger if they added Gonzaga and Wichita State, or even Notre Dame and UConn. That would ruin the double round robin format and screw up the conference.

Edit: He would also have to argue that the additions of Butler (although short-lived), VCU, and Davidson have done nothing to help the A-10.
I guess you could come up with some totally unrealistic hypotheticals that would make me favor expansion. Having said that, it's pretty funny you'd use the Atlantic Ten as an example. I mean, the best year the league has ever had (UD's Elite Eight year) occurred in the one year they actually had fewer than fourteen teams. I know you can't entirely attribute that to having fewer teams, but it is a rather unfortunate fact for someone who's trying to argue that expansion is beneficial. The league had it's best year after losing teams rather than after adding any.

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Old 09-30-2015, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nashville_Flyer View Post
Wow, you spend a lot of time writing on a Dayton message board.
I really appreciate Xubrew's viewpoints. Always reasonable and well thought out.
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  #261  
Old 10-08-2015, 08:47 PM
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I don't have time to read 260 replies and I apologize if this point was brought up about FOX and their deal with advertisers:
When FOX proposes a deal with for example Ford, the Big East is part of a larger bundled sports package including soccer and the highly rated MMA. It's sort of like the tiered offerings Time Warner has for its services. FOX is happy with the Big East. All they wanted out of the Big East was to out view SPEED and so far it has. FOX is crushing ratings with its FOX News etc. The Big East needs ST Johns, Nova, and Georgetown to win several NCAA games in those mega markets. Nova and JT3 are locked and loaded. Chris Mullin has talent but no experience. I love the Big East being from XU. There is no easy game. Even Marquette that won just 11-12 games last season was huge and I predict 20 wins this year in Milwaukee. I don't see expansion yet but UCONN keeps creeping up in rumors.

What's up Chris R?? LOL
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Old 10-08-2015, 09:20 PM
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So far we have out-performed the entire NBE in the NCAA Tournament. Think about that the next time that delusion threatens to overcome you. Just do something. Beat somebody.

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  #263  
Old 10-08-2015, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Source View Post
FOX is happy with the Big East. All they wanted out of the Big East was to out view SPEED and so far it has.
Set the bar low enough and anyone can jump over it, even the NBE on FOX.

SPEED? What's that?
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Old 10-09-2015, 12:52 PM
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Speed channel originally speedvision was the station that fs1 now occupies. Fs1 wasnt really a new channel as much as it was a rebranding/redesigning of speed channel, or SPEED for short
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Old 10-09-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports View Post
Speed channel originally speedvision was the station that fs1 now occupies. Fs1 wasnt really a new channel as much as it was a rebranding/redesigning of speed channel, or SPEED for short
Is that the same as the Velocity Channel??
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  #266  
Old 10-09-2015, 03:34 PM
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3.4 million or 400k per team annually (tv package with FOX) was XU's options.
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Old 10-09-2015, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Source View Post
3.4 million or 400k per team annually (tv package with FOX) was XU's options.
Could you please explain the $3.4 million figure? I thought it was $4.16 million per team per year?

$500 million/10 teams/12 years=$4.16 million per team per year.
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Source View Post
3.4 million or 400k per team annually (tv package with FOX) was XU's options.
Source glad your back!

Yea, we already know about the 3.4 million that X and the rest of the new BE get each year from FOX! From everything I've read about X's finances over the past 3-4 years, they need every dime of that money to retain faculty and other workers! That sure is a lot of money especially when enrollment is what it is at X and the university has so much catching up to do on it's infrastructure, etc

I'm glad that you have a good hoops team. Also sorry that the powers that be @ X refuse to play us in men's basketball. It's always been a fun series.

PS I know you've noticed but we are doing just fine in the little ole' A-10.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:01 PM
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I honestly do not know why or how this is still a discussion anywhere. No one in the Big East wants expansion, there is a long-term Fox contract that pays the 10 handsomely and would reduce the per school payout with more teams, and the conference is sending half of its team's to the Tournament (#2 RPI last year). Pretty much all of these things have to change for the discussion to even start. That simply isn't happening in a time frame that makes any further discussion on the topic --- moot.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Could you please explain the $3.4 million figure? I thought it was $4.16 million per team per year?

$500 million/10 teams/12 years=$4.16 million per team per year.
Here are the terms. http://awfulannouncing.com/2013/deta...-big-east.html
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU View Post
I honestly do not know why or how this is still a discussion anywhere. No one in the Big East wants expansion, there is a long-term Fox contract that pays the 10 handsomely and would reduce the per school payout with more teams, and the conference is sending half of its team's to the Tournament (#2 RPI last year). Pretty much all of these things have to change for the discussion to even start. That simply isn't happening in a time frame that makes any further discussion on the topic --- moot.
I honestly do not know why you would come to this board and tell us what we should be discussing or what we shouldn't be discussing.
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  #272  
Old 10-22-2015, 01:17 PM
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The terms supposedly include the ability to expand the contract to give 12 teams the same that the 10 get now if they were to expand.

But I agree that Fox seems reluctant to shell out another 100 mil right now. But it would not cost the existing teams a dime to invite 2 more teams... Fox would likely be the ones driving that decision but as of now there is no big push to do it as I don't think they feel any teams out there are worth investing another 8.3 million per year in this contract. For all we know, they have a countdown clock in their offices until they can be rid of this contract.
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I honestly do not know why you would come to this board and tell us what we should be discussing or what we shouldn't be discussing.
You're too nice the appropriate response is FU Title BU.
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  #274  
Old 10-23-2015, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Source View Post
3.4 million or 400k per team annually (tv package with FOX) was XU's options.
Wow! 3.4 Million.

That's a lot if you're cash-strapped.
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:29 AM
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I was being polite. It's a waste of time, its simply not happening. That's neither incendiary or mean, its just what it is.

The only thing that can shake loose the status quo is the extremely unlikely event that UConn does something. In that extremely remote scenario, I think you'd just see the addition of fellow public institution VCU to make 12 with UConn.

Other than that, there's no interest or catalyst.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU View Post
I was being polite. It's a waste of time, its simply not happening. That's neither incendiary or mean, its just what it is.

The only thing that can shake loose the status quo is the extremely unlikely event that UConn does something. In that extremely remote scenario, I think you'd just see the addition of fellow public institution VCU to make 12 with UConn.

Other than that, there's no interest or catalyst.
LOL! And I thought all the "experts" on college basketball and expansion were from that school down south!
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU View Post
I was being polite. It's a waste of time, its simply not happening. That's neither incendiary or mean, its just what it is.

The only thing that can shake loose the status quo is the extremely unlikely event that UConn does something. In that extremely remote scenario, I think you'd just see the addition of fellow public institution VCU to make 12 with UConn.

Other than that, there's no interest or catalyst.

And your credentials as an expert in this matter are what?
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  #278  
Old 10-23-2015, 04:01 PM
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Sounds like Pitt wants to ensure that they will never have another beatdown at UD arena

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-...185528391.html

Hopefully this does not start a trend for Power 5 schools. Big blow for A10, AAC, and Big East. Whether the Big East likes it or not, the non power 5 conferences might have to stick together
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerNation23 View Post
Sounds like Pitt wants to ensure that they will never have another beatdown at UD arena

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-...185528391.html

Hopefully this does not start a trend for Power 5 schools. Big blow for A10, AAC, and Big East. Whether the Big East likes it or not, the non power 5 conferences might have to stick together
Not sure of the exact angle but some US representative or senator from a non-power 5 school needs to attack with an anti-trust angle. Make revenues from sports taxable unless the power 5 boys start playing nice.
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  #280  
Old 10-23-2015, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerNation23 View Post
Sounds like Pitt wants to ensure that they will never have another beatdown at UD arena

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-...185528391.html

Hopefully this does not start a trend for Power 5 schools. Big blow for A10, AAC, and Big East. Whether the Big East likes it or not, the non power 5 conferences might have to stick together
The article is referring to football, not basketball.

Now, that doesn't mean he isn't planning the same for basketball, but who knows.
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  #281  
Old 10-23-2015, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU View Post
I was being polite. It's a waste of time, its simply not happening. That's neither incendiary or mean, its just what it is.

The only thing that can shake loose the status quo is the extremely unlikely event that UConn does something. In that extremely remote scenario, I think you'd just see the addition of fellow public institution VCU to make 12 with UConn.

Other than that, there's no interest or catalyst.
I hope it unfolds as you say it might. The worst thing UD can do is join the NBE. We are doing great right where we are. The money might be better now in the NBE, but in many other respects, I prefer for UD to stay as far away from that conference, and the failed network keeping it afloat, as possible.

Good luck to you and the NBE, us little guys need to band together to keep from getting sucked into the BCS black hole, but I think we can do that just fine with UD in the A10 and you in the NBE.
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  #282  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:21 PM
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FWIW, St. John's just got "blowed-out" in their exhibition game against St Thomas Aquinas, 90-58. i realize it's only an exhibition game, but...
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  #283  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
FWIW, St. John's just got "blowed-out" in their exhibition game against St Thomas Aquinas, 90-58. i realize it's only an exhibition game, but...
Wow, 32 point loss. Chris Mullin is beloved at SJU though I imagine, so I guess he'll get a fair shake, but still, wow.

And it never seems like Steve Lavin gets a fair shake. He did well at UCLA and St. John's and seemed to be run out of town at both places. I don't know what to make of that, maybe he is hard to get along with? Sure seems like a good coach. Or maybe UCLA and SJU have unrealistic expectations.

And this isn't a rebuilding job at SJU, Lavin was there for 5 years, I think he took a medical leave in year 2.

year 1 ncaa, year 2 out, year 3 nit, year 4 nit, year 5 ncaa.

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  #284  
Old 11-07-2015, 07:07 PM
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Interesting how fans from Big East schools come onto a UD board to tell us the Big East doesn't care about UD. That's one of the things that happens when you have a conference that thinks they are better than you but every team would love to have had UD's success in recent NCAA tournaments
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
FWIW, St. John's just got "blowed-out" in their exhibition game against St Thomas Aquinas, 90-58. i realize it's only an exhibition game, but...
Reminds me of Sidney Lowe at North Carolina State...beloved former player...Lowe had a bunch of NBA experience, but no college experience, and he got the axe at NCSU. Mullin has the same type of resume.

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  #286  
Old 11-09-2015, 10:48 AM
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Hoiberg had a similar resume to Mullin (albeit he was much younger) when he took over at Iowa State.
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:55 AM
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The title of this thread is so misguided.
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  #288  
Old 11-09-2015, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
Hoiberg had a similar resume to Mullin (albeit he was much younger) when he took over at Iowa State.
Good point, I forgot about Hoiberg.
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:17 PM
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Not good:

Creighton AD advocating for Gonzaga and Wichita State to join Big East.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wich...obile&ie=UTF-8

Last edited by ud2; 03-27-2016 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:40 PM
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Another Jesuit school and a plan that makes no financial sense.It almost smells of collusion to keep Dayton out.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Not good:

Creighton AD advocating for Gonzaga and Wichita State to join Big East.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wich...obile&ie=UTF-8
No way Gonzaga could ever handle the travel
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
No way Gonzaga could ever handle the travel
Not to mention the ol' square peg in the round hole conundrum. That has got to be the worst cultural fit I've ever heard proposed. Takes the crown from Texas to the B1G, if you ask me.
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:16 PM
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I like how it only seems to be the Jesuit or the new schools in the NBE doing all the talking.
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  #294  
Old 03-27-2016, 08:00 PM
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Sounds to me like someone is getting sick and tired of being the westernmost member of the NBE. Wichita State provides a backyard rivalry (never mind that it would be the only non-Catholic school in the conference), and Gonzaga provides a Jesuit connection with a consistent history of winning (unlike SLU, which has become a bottom-feeder in the A-10 while on Crews control). Can't imagine that either Gonzaga or Wichita State would find it an economically or logistically feasible proposition.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Wichita State provides a backyard rivalry (never mind that it would be the only non-Catholic school in the conference)...
I don't think Butler is Catholic.

Can't imagine that either Gonzaga or Wichita State would find it an economically or logistically feasible proposition.
Imagine those cross-country trips to St. John's for a weeknight women's soccer game.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Sounds to me like someone is getting sick and tired of being the westernmost member of the NBE. Wichita State provides a backyard rivalry (never mind that it would be the only non-Catholic school in the conference), and Gonzaga provides a Jesuit connection with a consistent history of winning (unlike SLU, which has become a bottom-feeder in the A-10 while on Crews control). Can't imagine that either Gonzaga or Wichita State would find it an economically or logistically feasible proposition.
Butler converted to Catholicism?
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
I don't think Butler is Catholic.

Imagine those cross-country trips to St. John's for a weeknight women's soccer game.
My bad. WSU would be the only non-private school in the NBE. Still, a definite diversion from the current "member profile".

And, yes, travel budgets for non-revenue sports would go beyond ridiculous.
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  #298  
Old 03-27-2016, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
No way Gonzaga could ever handle the travel
...or they put their basketball teams in the NBE & leave everything else in the WCC or some other west coast conference.

Anything can work if there's enough $$$ behind it.
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Butler converted to Catholicism?
Hey, it's Easter. Cut me some slack!
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  #300  
Old 03-27-2016, 10:13 PM
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What can the NBE do for Gonzaga that they have not already done for themselves? They were ranked number one in the nation for a while a few years back. They get into the NCAA Tournament every year (many times with a very high seed) and regularly win when they get there.
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