Lowery vs London...Start The Debate

[lilrudy4787]

I LOVED Lowery last night. He made a jumper, made his ft's and ran the floor with MJ and CW. He just looked vastly superior to LW, and with the limited playing time also. LW has already had an entire year to gel with the offense and still looks out of control and still cant shoot. I think LW's PT will dry up very soon and Lowery will start playing more and more.

ps...those two alley-oops were SICK.

GO!

[TheDuke2003]

London: 4 assists, 4 turnovers, 1-4 FT shooting
Lowery: 5 assists, 1 turnover, 2 clutch free throws down the stretch.

It's pretty clear cut to me who should be getting more time. As it is right now, I let them split it, 20 minutes apiece and let Thomas ride the bench.

[Sea Bass]

LW will continue to get minutes because he is an excellent defender. He has never been nor will he ever be a PG because he doesn't have the vision and anticiaption necessary to play the position well.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 London: 4 assists, 4 turnovers, 1-4 FT shooting Lowery: 5 assists, 1 turnover, 2 clutch free throws down the stretch. It's pretty clear cut to me who should be getting more time. As it is right now, I let them split it, 20 minutes apiece and let Thomas ride the bench.

Sounds like a good plan, however it may have been an oversight that Rob was 1-6 from the floor in your comparison.

We need two productive pg's as a minimum. And no controversy.

[Canonball]

I like London starting in spite of last nights mediocre performance. The reason is that you can't replace his energy and defense at the beginning of each half. We lose the Wofford game if we don't come out like we did in the second half. So again I like his intensity to get things started. I think Lowery is better when he's eased into the game. Late game situations as of right now you have to like having Lowery in there. Supposedly was an 80% ft shooter last year in JC. Looked awfully smooth on the two freebies to lock it up. His clutch jumper also appeared very smooth. Honestly when we played both at the same time it was pretty interesting ... I wouldn't mind seeing more of that. It must create some panic trying to defend those two whirling dervishes at once.

[Gazoo]

That was a convenient oversight wasn't it.

The offense actually ran better last night with LW on the court, but both bring strong attributes. I think RL is eventually the starter but it's a game-by-game situation on who gets the minutes.

[masonflyer]

I honestly couldn't tell them apart on the computer. They looked like twins on the fuzzy screen. I could only tell if someone took a jumper or who didn't throw the ally-oop into the stands, or when they took a foul shot.

[Gilchrist's Autograph 2]

It's pretty clear to me that both will get a lot of playing time (20 minutes or so). Neither one is heads and shoulders above the other - both have reason to be on the court. Lowrey is certainly a more complete player (in other words, he can actually shoot the ball), but I think it will be nice having the ability to play them both and run them hard.

[BallgameJohnny]

Sitting close to the bench both of them, but RL moreso were getting very angry and outspoken with the coaches when they kept getting pulled.

[TC88]

I like the system now. Both get minutes but London starts and Lowery plays at the end up games because he can hit free throws.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by BallgameJohnny Sitting close to the bench both of them, but RL moreso were getting very angry and outspoken with the coaches when they kept getting pulled.

Now that is an earwitness report that is hard to refute. It's the first push-back from the players directly that I have read on here. This frenetic substituting needs a serious look from the Coach.

[Canonball]

Originally Posted by BallgameJohnny Sitting close to the bench both of them, but RL moreso were getting very angry and outspoken with the coaches when they kept getting pulled.

If true that's a great way to get into BG's doghouse .... which if history is an indicator of the future is not a place you escape from easily.

[Gilchrist's Autograph 2]

Originally Posted by BallgameJohnny Sitting close to the bench both of them, but RL moreso were getting very angry and outspoken with the coaches when they kept getting pulled.

Interesting. I did notice at one point that one of them was in the game a whole 58 seconds before they made a switch.

[BlueMiniS]

Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 London: 4 assists, 4 turnovers, 1-4 FT shooting Lowery: 5 assists, 1 turnover, 2 clutch free throws down the stretch. It's pretty clear cut to me who should be getting more time. As it is right now, I let them split it, 20 minutes apiece and let Thomas ride the bench.

Convinient that your stat line missed the small fact that RL was only 1-6 from the field. Yes, his one shot was at an important time, but how easily everyone forgets he missed his first 5 shots.

[Gazoo]

I noticed and meant to comment on the fact that at one point RL came off the court and all but refused to take the towel from LW--was giving major attitude to the bench for being pulled and BG went straight to him to talk it over.

[GetFlyeredup]

Does anyone know a website that records the +/- differential of players? I know UD and ESPN does not. This stat will be very telling in figuring out our best options in terms of lineups, sub patterns, etc.

[TheDuke2003]

Originally Posted by BlueMiniS Convinient that your stat line missed the small fact that RL was only 1-6 from the field. Yes, his one shot was at an important time, but how easily everyone forgets he missed his first 5 shots.

He didn't turn the ball over, had more assists in less minutes, and was willing to take the shots, something London has never seemed that comfortable doing. And this was in his first game at the D1 level. I'm not looking for a big time scorer at PG, but a facilitator who knows his role.

[BlueMiniS]

Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 He didn't turn the ball over, had more assists in less minutes, and was willing to take the shots, something London has never seemed that comfortable doing. And this was in his first game at the D1 level. I'm not looking for a big time scorer at PG, but a facilitator who knows his role.

Ok, I'll remember now it is ok to shoot 17% for a game. Glad we now have a point guard who isn't afraid to take a shot.....and it doesn't matter if he makes them or not.

[longtimefan]

What I liked about Lowery was that he hit the biggest shot of the game - the 15 foot jumper with 48 seconds left that put us up by four (a shot which he created), and the two biggest free throws of the game, putting us up by 5 and clinching the game with 15 seconds left. Those free throws were smooth. I would much rather have him at the line late in the game than Warren. I would say they should split time because I do like Warren's defense and energy, but in crunch time I think we need Lowery's better shooting, especially free throw shooting.

[Canonball]

If we're using the MP logic on this one (1/4 easily becomes 2/4 with one made shot) .... then you have to apply the same logic to Lowery 1/6 becomes 2/6 and there is not much argument about his shooting. I'll take the 5/1 assist to turnover and clutch shooting (particularly down the stretch). London is still the starter for other reasons. Energy on defense being the prime one.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Canonball If true that's a great way to get into BG's doghouse .... which if history is an indicator of the future is not a place you escape from easily.

RL could sleep with BG's wife the rest of the year and he won't go into BG's doghouse.UD CANNOT afford to have LW on the floor more than 20 or so minutes and BG cannot afford another lackluster year especially with the schedule.

[Alberto Strasse]

UD's offensive point guard play was totally unacceptable. The PG is the quarterback of the team and is expected to read defenses correctly and get the team into the correct offense. Wofford did a very nice job of changing zones and using m2m. UD's "PG's" did not have a clue on offense. I thought Lowery was much better than LW at the offesnive end and the foul line late in the game. But the combined full game effort against Wofford by our PG's is a huge red flag for this year's team. The pass is the most important skill
in the half court. Neither PG could find a way to enter the ball to the post. I feel so bad for CW as I watch him play on a team that cannot find the skill to get him the ball when he's in position to shoot or dunk. Lowery found him occasionally. If UD cannot find the offensive skill to to have a positive assist/turnover ratio against Wofford, UD may be in for a lot of disappointment this year. I really believe with this team and their ability to play at the rim, one of the best "passes" may be to take a long shot and let the sywalkers go get the offensive board. This is particularly true when UD faces zone defenses.

Fortunately. UD found a way to win the game with superior defense. My eyes told me that LW was a better defender last night than was young Mr. Lowery.

I noticed that BG had the ball in Lowery's hands at the end of the game for foul shooting purposes. That was a wise move. We can expect to see UD's opponents to play a lot of "Hack a Warren" at the end of the game if he is permitted to touch the ball.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse I noticed that BG had the ball in Lowery's hands at the end of the game for foul shooting purposes. That was a wise move. We can expect to see UD's opponents to play a lot of "Hack a Warren" at the end of the game if he is permitted to touch the ball.

Did anyone else notice that London and Little were both on the floor at the end of the game?? If you don't want them at the free throw line, why are they on the floor? Are we that void of good free throw shooters?

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by steve RL could sleep with BG's wife the rest of the year and he won't go into BG's doghouse.UD CANNOT afford to have LW on the floor more than 20 or so minutes and BG cannot afford another lackluster year especially with the schedule.

Actually, we really could not afford to have big Des on the bench because we needed an inside presence. We also could not part with our strongest forward in Plummer either. Different story with those two, but Lowery could and can end up on the bench if he spits poison out about the coach during the game. From BG's standpoint, do you deal with a discipline problem, or do you make due with the coachable players.

As far as the RL vs. LW. London may be a better leader for the team at this point. I think we see Lowery finishing, but it is still too early to tell.

London was simply trying to hard to get things working and Lowery was trying to hard to get shots to fall, but Lowery came up with some very nice assists and a clutch shot and a set of free throws. Both will probably hone in their games.

[lilrudy4787]

Originally Posted by Canonball If we're using the MP logic on this one (1/4 easily becomes 2/4 with one made shot) .... then you have to apply the same logic to Lowery 1/6 becomes 2/6 and there is not much argument about his shooting. I'll take the 5/1 assist to turnover and clutch shooting (particularly down the stretch). London is still the starter for other reasons. Energy on defense being the prime one.

ummm...everyone seems to be forgetting that the 1-6 shooting included 2 missed shots because he was fouled.

[rollo]

Unless you make it, those shots don't count on the stat sheet.

[lilrudy4787]

im dumb. i dont remember rl takin that many shots though

[Furio]

Originally Posted by rollo Did anyone else notice that London and Little were both on the floor at the end of the game?? If you don't want them at the free throw line, why are they on the floor? Are we that void of good free throw shooters?

Actually the last 3-4 mins it was Warren,Lowry, Johnson, Wright, Huelsman if I recall correctly. Little on the bench.

[Canonball]

I was just using the point someone else made on MP's shooting last night. That is .... don't be too critical because if he makes one more shot he's shooting 50% on the year.

In other words don't be critical of our actual shooting guard (MP) for not shooting well ... but do be critical of our point guard for not shooting well???? The logic is actually backwards in my mind. If the shooting guard isn't shooting well ... then he's not doing his job ... sniping. Point guards should run the offense and facilitate others to score. 5 assists vs 1 t/o is in fact getting that job done.

My issue with MP's shooting was that those were wide open looks. As was pointed out Lowery's looks were contested shots for the most part.

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by lilrudy4787 im dumb. i dont remember rl takin that many shots though

His shots early were well off the mark. Hopefully his clutch shot got him over the stage fright.

Perhaps Perry will loosen up as well.

A thought about LW, when they sag off him the way they do, he should have a play where he calls in the rebounders and just let it rip. If everyone is on the perimeter he doesn't have the option. Surely he can average 1 of 4 and we will probably get a lot of those rebounds.

[masonflyer]

Originally Posted by BlueMiniS Ok, I'll remember now it is ok to shoot 17% for a game. Glad we now have a point guard who isn't afraid to take a shot.....and it doesn't matter if he makes them or not.

Another philosophy. I would rather have a player, especially a point guard, miss a wide open 15 footer than not shoot it. It tends to make the defender guard you instead of sagging into the middle where our best player is.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Furio Actually the last 3-4 mins it was Warren,Lowry, Johnson, Wright, Huelsman if I recall correctly. Little on the bench.

Up by 3, didn't Little sub in for Huelsman at the 0:26 mark in one of those offense/defense motivated changes?

[Furio]

Originally Posted by rollo Didn't Little sub in for Huelsman in the last minute in one of those offense/defense motivated changes?

I don't remember that happening so I went to Dayton No Access to refresh my memory and the game is not archived yet along with the 2 exhibitions game.
No surprise.

[Sea Bass]

Wofford packed it in and gave ANY UD player ANY perimeter jump shot they wanted. There is no play, no high ball screen where the man always go under the screen or great drive and dribble play that is going to lead to a easy layup.

Thye FLyers were in a situation where they needed to knock down shots ... the only two ways to combat the Wofford D was to get a shot before it got set or make perimeter shots.

[The Chef]

Originally Posted by rollo Up by 3, didn't Little sub in for Huelsman at the 0:26 mark in one of those offense/defense motivated changes?

Originally Posted by Furio I don't remember that happening so I went to Dayton No Access to refresh my memory and the game is not archived yet along with the 2 exhibitions game. No surprise.

0:15 2nd - Little subs in for Huelsman after Lowery cans the second of a pair of freebies to ice the game.

[Flyer Hub]

I raised the concern in a diifferent thread that I'm concerned Lowery could wear down. London is very strong and can hold his own against any A-10 guard if they want to play physical. We don't know how RL will respond when the season moves into conference play and he starts to get pushed around a bit. BG has to do a masterful job splitting the minutes to keep everyone fresh and productive for the long haul.

[MrFlyerFanatic]

2 of Lowery's assists were comprised of throwing the ball at the rim and letting CW go get it. London has thrown that same pass many times in his career.
Junior Salters was on fire from long range, but didn't get a shot off in the last 4 minutes as London Warren was exclusively assigned to guard him. There was no switching.
2 of Lowery's missed shots were lay-ups. London also missed a lay-up.
One turnover for Lowery is good. A couple of London's turnovers were the result of being aggressive (offensive foul, outlet pass that MJ couldn't catch up with). Looking at the offensive performance, I think we could have used some extra aggressiveness from Lowery.
If Lowery is upset about the substitution patterns last night, he has a lot to learn. It was the first game and EVERY scholarship player in uniform got on the court in the first half. This is the time of year to secure minutes down the road, not complain about not getting them now. London's defense, leadership, and history secure his minutes. Lowery has made an impression, but one game doesn't bump an incumbent.

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

[UDBrian]

Originally Posted by masonflyer Another philosophy. I would rather have a player, especially a point guard, miss a wide open 15 footer than not shoot it. It tends to make the defender guard you instead of sagging into the middle where our best player is.

If I am guarding a player who cannot shoot I would be happy every time he jacked one up. I would be saying "Shoot London, you're open" When London shows the ability to make those open shots they will come out on him and he can blow past almost anyone

[masonflyer]

Originally Posted by UDBrian If I am guarding a player who cannot shoot I would be happy every time he jacked one up. I would be saying "Shoot London, you're open" When London shows the ability to make those open shots they will come out on him and he can blow past almost anyone

I was commenting that I would rather see Lowry shoot and miss than not shoot. I'm sure HE will make half of his wide open 15 footers.

[ClearTheRunwayForWLJ]

I'm not sure but I think there was a thread on this topic from the offseason, but I cannot find it.

Either way, I really do laugh that thought London would be the starting point guard this entire year or log more minutes than Lowery.

As the year wears on you will see Lowery finish games and London on the bench once Paul Williams is healthy. Lowery had the guts to nail that killer jump shot and made both his free throws down the stretch. London missed his and turned the ball over.

London is a perfect 15-18 minute guard with energy, nothing else. We need Lowery to play 20 minutes at least if we want to dance this season.

He is controlled, he can shoot, he can make free throws ... what else do you want?

[TheDuke2003]

Originally Posted by BlueMiniS Ok, I'll remember now it is ok to shoot 17% for a game. Glad we now have a point guard who isn't afraid to take a shot.....and it doesn't matter if he makes them or not.

Yes, because that guarantees that he will go 1/6 every game because he did in his first collegiate game at the D1 level in front of the largest crowd he has ever played in front of. Lowery showed in the exhibition games he has a better stroke than Warren, and in one game he has already come through in the clutch. And i'll trade a couple missed shots for a 5:1 Assist/Turnover ration vs Warren's 1:1 every single day of the week.

[Medford]

Lowery still has a lot of juco in him. Aside from the alleged pouting over playing time, there was a missed shot that he jumped and tipped a little behind him, but couldn't quite grab. Instead of hustling back to grab the ball, he stood there and watched the Wofford player grab the ball. He also made a couple of ill advised passes that he could have gotten away w/ in Juco land, but not D1, not even against the Woffords of the world. At the same time, he showed great energy diving out of bounce for the lose ball and no fear making his final shot. He's got that confidence that a lot of Juco's come in with due to playing against inferior talent in both practice and games for 2 seasons.

I think he'll be a good one before all is said & done, but he's not ready yet. One thing I spotted last night was Warren's leadership on one particular play. As they came down to set up the offense, he was yelling at marcus to get into proper position. After marcus didn't catch what he meant, he had to yell more. The play resulted in a turnover by someone on a ball missed out of bounds. I think it lead to a media timeout, and as UD was walking back to their end of the court, Warren was in Marcus' face about what he was missing, letting him know exactly where he needed to be. That's something I haven't seen out of Warren the previous 2 seasons and may be an inkling to why he's starting.

I also liked the pull up jumper/floater he made. He made a couple in exhibition game 1, and displayed confidence in this shot w/ post game quotes. This was sorely missing from his game last year as he routinely drove too far into traffic to take a wild shot. If he can knock this down, he's becomes danerous. London had a couple of other nice drives attacking the rim, but just couldn't get the layup to fall.

[UDBrian]

Originally Posted by masonflyer I was commenting that I would rather see Lowry shoot and miss than not shoot. I'm sure HE will make half of his wide open 15 footers.

OK, sorry about the confusion. I agree

[Whacker]

I believe the particular series where Lowery got pulled was early in the second half. He pulled up and missed a quick shot and then Loesman the Wofford PG went right around him to the rim.

I noticed the theatrics as well. Still, he was back in a few minutes later and was on the floor when it matered at the end.

[emswartz92]

Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate.

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate.

Yes, he has been good.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ I'm not sure but I think there was a thread on this topic from the offseason, but I cannot find it. Either way, I really do laugh that thought London would be the starting point guard this entire year or log more minutes than Lowery. As the year wears on you will see Lowery finish games and London on the bench once Paul Williams is healthy. Lowery had the guts to nail that killer jump shot and made both his free throws down the stretch. London missed his and turned the ball over. London is a perfect 15-18 minute guard with energy, nothing else. We need Lowery to play 20 minutes at least if we want to dance this season. He is controlled, he can shoot, he can make free throws ... what else do you want?

I laugh at your absolute predictions based on one game.

[emswartz92]

Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer Yes, he has been good.

When? Has he ever had a game with 7 or more assists and 2 or fewer turnovers. I don't think so. Even if he has, he can never do that consistintley. He misses layups, misses free throws, and turns the ball over consistintley. He's a joke.

[IAFlyer]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 When? Has he ever had a game with 7 or more assists and 2 or fewer turnovers. I don't think so. Even if he has, he can never do that consistintley. He misses layups, misses free throws, and turns the ball over consistintley. He's a joke.

Go away..

You asked if he has ever been good - translation - had a good game. He has had several outstanding games. He has not been consistent - I think we all agree.

Nobody plays defense as well as LW -- defense earns minutes for BG.

[emswartz92]

If a .84 assist to turnover ratio gets you 20 minutes a game, then more power to you BG.

[shapanud]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate.

Speaking in absolutes makes your arguments ineffective. If you want to debate who is better, do so in a reasonable way and you might find people are more willing to be reasonable with you.

When you say "Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate", it takes about 7 seconds for someone to prove you wrong. Perhaps you don't remember this game from last year:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/...08/2-2-08.html

31 minutes, 13 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 turnover...I'd say that is pretty good.

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 When? Has he ever had a game with 7 or more assists and 2 or fewer turnovers. I don't think so. Even if he has, he can never do that consistintley. He misses layups, misses free throws, and turns the ball over consistintley. He's a joke.

Dude, 7 and 2 on a consistent basis would make you one of the best point guards in the history of college hoops.

[The Chef]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 When? Has he ever had a game with 7 or more assists and 2 or fewer turnovers. I don't think so.

Well actually, yes he has.

2007 Atlantic 10 Tournament 1st Round:

Dayton 81, Charlotte 63.

London Warren's stat line: 24 minutes, 6 points, 8 assists, 1 block, 1 steal, 1 TO, 4-4 FT.

Oddly enough, Charles Little was 6-6 from the line that night.

Oh, and the word you are looking for is "consistently."

I wonder who the joke is now...

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

	Charlotte CHARLOTTE UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 master’s degree programs and 90 bachelor’s degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the university’s academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

[IAFlyer]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 When? Has he ever had a game with 7 or more assists and 2 or fewer turnovers. I don't think so. Even if he has, he can never do that consistintley. He misses layups, misses free throws, and turns the ball over consistintley. He's a joke.

Well dude, you've been proven wrong -- at least twice. What is your response now?

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by IAFlyer Well dude, you've been proven wrong -- at least twice. What is your response now?

Your mother smells of elderberries.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Your mother smells of elderberries.

Isn't she a hamster?

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Canonball If true that's a great way to get into BG's doghouse .... which if history is an indicator of the future is not a place you escape from easily.

yeah, but SDF is right. it's gonna make more players get angry, so it's a two way street .

what no on e prepped RL on the 2 minute runs?

[emswartz92]

Originally Posted by IAFlyer Well dude, you've been proven wrong -- at least twice. What is your response now?

You guys have given me the two best games of Warren's career. How many of his awful games did you have to look through to find those? All I'm saying is, he has two "good" games out of ten. That's not good enough to start in my opinion.

P.S. Please don't ever call me dude again. What, are you in second grade?

[shapanud]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 You guys have given me the two best games of his career. How many of his awful games did you have to look through to find those? All I'm saying is, he has two "good" games out of ten. That's not good enough to start in my opinion.

I was not debating if LW should be our starting point guard. I believe the debate regarding if LW is good enough to be our starting PG is one that reasonable people can disagree with each other and it is something that is certainly worthy of discussion on this message board

However, that was not the question you asked. You specifically asked, "Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate".

By showing you a game in which he was good, I was simply making a point that when you speak in absolutes and exagerrations, like some on this board do, you are easily refuted and you undermine your entire argument. He has been good on plenty of occasions for UD, just as he has been far from good on a number of occasions. Use facts and reasoned language and you will find that people tend to respond to you in the same way, even if they disagree with your opinion.

	London Warren LONDON WARREN 6-0 185lb Junior Raines, HS | Jacksonville FL Nicknamed the "Jacksonville Jet", London Warren is perhaps UD's quickest player baseline to baseline. Leader in steals defensively, he likes to push tempo on offense. Working on his shot and confidence at the charity stripe. 2007-08 | 4.3ppg 2.9rpg 2006-07 | 2.4ppg 1.7rpg

[IAFlyer]

Originally Posted by shapanud I was not debating if LW should be our starting point guard. I believe the debate regarding if LW is good enough to be our starting PG is one that reasonable people can disagree with each other and it is something that is certainly worthy of discussion on this message board However, that was not the question you asked. You specifically asked, "Has London Warren ever been good? Ever? This isn't a debate". By showing you a game in which he was good, I was simply making a point that when you speak in absolutes and exagerrations, like some on this board do, you are easily refuted and you undermine your entire argument. He has been good on plenty of occasions for UD, just as he has been far from good on a number of occasions. Use facts and reasoned language and you will find that people tend to respond to you in the same way, even if they disagree with your opinion.

emswartz -- sorry about the dude, mindless typing. I have highlighted the response with which I agree - if you avoid absolutes, you find that there is a lot of room for discussion and disagreement, but throwing out the absolutes will bring about what has happened to this thread.

Give it a try next time.. Or even this time.

[emswartz92]

Originally Posted by IAFlyer emswartz -- sorry about the dude, mindless typing. I have highlighted the response with which I agree - if you avoid absolutes, you find that there is a lot of room for discussion and disagreement, but throwing out the absolutes will bring about what has happened to this thread. Give it a try next time.. Or even this time.

I understand that. I too had a bit of mindless typing. I shouldn't have used absolutes in my original post like that. Perhaps I was just frustrated with the point guard play against Wofford. I'll lay off the absolutes from now on.

[bobber]

When London is on the floor, our opponent is playing basically 5 on 4. That evens up to 5 on 5 when Rob is in there. I think London and Rob will share the point 50/50 through the season. But it will be Lowery in at the end of the game. That is, unless London can show he can hit 70% from the line.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 P.S. Please don't ever call me dude again. What, are you in second grade?

What is wrong with calling someone dude? Is that a new rule I'm not aware of? I hear it all the time. Just curious.

[lilrudy4787]

Originally Posted by bobber When London is on the floor, our opponent is playing basically 5 on 4. That evens up to 5 on 5 when Rob is in there. I think London and Rob will share the point 50/50 through the season. But it will be Lowery in at the end of the game. That is, unless London can show he can hit 70% from the line.

i agree with this 200%....london and rob will most likely share the point for the majority...but rob proved last game that he can hit the clutch shot and make his fts....and thats what matters in the end of the game.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by bobber When London is on the floor, our opponent is playing basically 5 on 4. That evens up to 5 on 5 when Rob is in there. I think London and Rob will share the point 50/50 through the season. But it will be Lowery in at the end of the game. That is, unless London can show he can hit 70% from the line.

I agree with your overall assessment, but there are a few things that will skew the 5/4 5/5 points this year.

Last year, you bet, 5/4. He wasn't and still isn't an perimeter threat, which obviously causes the D to sag in the paint and screw up any hopes of in/out rotation.

With that said. He has shown so far this year that the little 10 ft floater may pay off. Last year he would go all the way to the rack and get smothered. The floater will put more pressure on his defender not to rely on the post man to hedge out and pick LW up if he got beat. If he can hit the floater when the big man stays home on KH/DS etc...then it will keep the D honest. If he makes the wise decision to dump it to the post when the D hedges off the post, then we see the scheme paying off with improved post play off of the drive.

The success depends on the ability of LW to consistently hit the 10 footer and the ability for him to realize when to find the man whose defender left home to pick him up on the drive.

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 If a .84 assist to turnover ratio gets you 20 minutes a game, then more power to you BG.

Dude, (some of us have been using the term for ages, well before it was hip in the second grade, I will continue to do so, I have trouble changing)

London has 4 assists to 4 turnovers. Isn't that a 1 to 1 ratio or am I having trouble with math again. Seems to be an improvement over last year. Lets see how LW and RL do over the next few games before we figure out which players get 40 minutes each.

May the schwartz be with you swartzy.

[Atlantic 10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan What is wrong with calling someone dude? Is that a new rule I'm not aware of? I hear it all the time. Just curious.

Either he doesnt drink,or like the commercial on Bud Light. Dude!!!!!!

[TheDuke2003]

Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer Dude, (some of us have been using the term for ages, well before it was hip in the second grade, I will continue to do so, I have trouble changing) London has 4 assists to 4 turnovers. Isn't that a 1 to 1 ratio or am I having trouble with math again. Seems to be an improvement over last year. Lets see how LW and RL do over the next few games before we figure out which players get 40 minutes each. May the schwartz be with you swartzy.

1:1 is an improvement for LW, and i'm not saying he shouldn't play because he brings some very good qualities to the team: Energy, defense, leadership? (showed some in game 1 this year). However if Lowery keeps putting up 5:1 a/to ratios, and continues his clutchness (especially from the line), then he is who I want in on key situations. Both should get right around 20 minutes a game, maybe a little more if they continue to play around with both on the court at the same time.

[daytonflyers]

figgie's +/- statistics have quickly made their way to the bottom of the board and it is clear why....it doesnt help the seeming majority's argument that lowery should be in the game, so they have ignored them.

while london was in the game, we were +9.
while lowery was in, we were -3.

you all talk about having lowery in at the end of the game, but he wasnt even playing PG. london was in the game too. while i like him in there at the end because he does seem to have the killer instinct, i dont know if he is ready to run the show at that crucial juncture.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by emswartz92 You guys have given me the two best games of Warren's career. How many of his awful games did you have to look through to find those? All I'm saying is, he has two "good" games out of ten. That's not good enough to start in my opinion.

Since the 2004 season, we have only had 7+ assists and <=2 turnovers in a single game 8 times. Breakdown, London - once, BRob - twice, Warren Williams - 5 times. So, it's not easy to find ANYONE who has that kind of a line, let alone London. 8 out of 126 games. 6%. (remove one WW, and one BR, if you don't want games with 2 turnovers.)

--Figgie

[flyerfanatic86]

Originally Posted by bobber When London is on the floor, our opponent is playing basically 5 on 4. That evens up to 5 on 5 when Rob is in there. I think London and Rob will share the point 50/50 through the season. But it will be Lowery in at the end of the game. That is, unless London can show he can hit 70% from the line.

London arguably makes us 6 on 5 on the other end of the floor, though. Although I'm going to have a hard time arguing re Offense

[daytonflyers]

figgie the stat man...nice work

[masonflyer]

Lowrey looked real good last night, although I fortunately missed the first 10 minutes so not sure how he did then. Just curious is Bucky's pronounciation Laurie corrrect or is the ow pronounced like loud? I've really only seen the name in print and figured it was the latter.

[BlueMiniS]

LW: 0-1, 0 points
5 Assists
3 Steals
1 Rebound
1 Turnover

RL: 1-6, 2 points
4 Assists
1 Steal
2 Rebounds
4 Turnovers

As for the general "feel" of the game I felt more comfortable with LW in the game. He seemed under control on both ends of the floor while I felt RL is still getting a feel for the team. It is obvious that LW has been in the offense a lot longer than RL and I expect both of them to keep progressing at the year goes on. It it nice to have two PG's who can pressure the ball throughout the entire game and not wear down.

So far the season stats have pretty much evened out execpt RL has taken more shots, as expected.

 
Season Stats
    FG         FT       3PT         RB  AST TO  Ratio  STL
LW  3-7  43%   1-4 25%  0-0         7   13  6   2.2/1  7
RL  4-20 25%   4-6 66%  2-9 22%     5   12  6   2/1    6

[Gazoo]

I'm sorry. I was wrong. I didn't think LW could change.

He has played with amazing control and poise, even though it's against 2 bad teams and by "amazing" I'm talking in the relative sense here. If the control meter registered a "1" before he's now playing with a reading of "6".

If he can continue to play with this kind of control we're going to be a very difficult to play all year, since we've got 2 good point guards, and a 3rd who is acceptable in a pinch.

On any given night one guy will be your preferred option, and I'm very glad to have both.

[UDGutter2]

Originally Posted by BlueMiniS As for the general "feel" of the game I felt more comfortable with LW in the game. He seemed under control on both ends of the floor while I felt RL is still getting a feel for the team. It is obvious that LW has been in the offense a lot longer than RL and I expect both of them to keep progressing at the year goes on. It it nice to have two PG's who can pressure the ball throughout the entire game and not wear down. [/code]

I agree totally. Not being able to go to the first game, I couldn't really tell one from the other on the computer. But after the last 2 games. I do believe the team flows better on offense and especially defense when he is in. That being said, I wouldn't be hesitant to sub RL and LW freely throughout the game.

Speaking of defense, (maybe this deserves another thread) how many points are scored by the Flyers' opponents when KH is on the floor? Is it just me or is it very little?

[ClearTheRunwayForWLJ]

London and Lowery will split time probably the entire season.

Lowery will close out close games because he can make a free-throw.

They are both very valuable and together as one they equal what we need from a normal point guard. That is no offense to either of them, it just works that way.

That is the way I will look at it this entire year -- their stats combined. The Dredlock Combo had 9 assists and 4 turnovers today with 10 points ... sweet. And that is how they should be looked at.

But honestly, as the season rolls on and Lowery becomes more mature in the college game, there is no way he should not close out the game because of his ability to shoot the basketball.

Either way if L Squared (as I am going to call them) can give us 10 pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds and 2-4 steals a game and wear out opposing PG's because the two of them rotate in, that is more than adequate!

[TheDuke2003]

Its pretty clear to me that both will be most effictive if they are splitting time pretty evenly, at about 20 minutes a game, with a couple times where they are on the court togehter.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by UDGutter2 Speaking of defense, (maybe this deserves another thread) how many points are scored by the Flyers' opponents when KH is on the floor? Is it just me or is it very little?

For the first 2 games, our opponents scored 58 points while he was on the court. That is in 50:24 of playing time. Therefore, in 29:36 of him not on the court, our opponents scored 33 points.

OnCourt:  58 pts 3024 secs 1.15pt/min
OffCourt: 33 pts 1776 secs 1.11pt/min

Figgie

[LebronJames]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 For the first 2 games, our opponents scored 58 points while he was on the court. That is in 50:24 of playing time. Therefore, in 29:36 of him not on the court, our opponents scored 33 points. OnCourt: 58 pts 3024 secs 1.15pt/min OffCourt: 33 pts 1776 secs 1.11pt/min Figgie

The opponents have scored very little when he is on the court. They have also scored very little when he is off of it. Our defense has been outstanding the first three games.

It will be interesting to see this stat once we start playing teams with guys taller than 6'7" because I too feel like Kurt gives up very little on the inside.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ Either way, I really do laugh that thought London would be the starting point guard this entire year or log more minutes than Lowery. As the year wears on you will see Lowery finish games and London on the bench once Paul Williams is healthy. Lowery had the guts to nail that killer jump shot and made both his free throws down the stretch. London missed his and turned the ball over. London is a perfect 15-18 minute guard with energy, nothing else. We need Lowery to play 20 minutes at least if we want to dance this season. He is controlled, he can shoot, he can make free throws ... what else do you want?

Just curious. Have you seen anything in the last week that might give you second thoughts on your above analysis?

I think London has taken that quantum leap that we all prayed for and he will start unless he gets injured while slapping blocked shots off the glass. He will average the most minutes at pg. Rob will be an excellent backup to London in providing the same energy and more firepower. We need them both at the top of their game.