Is Baby D a Mirage?

[John C.]

Between December 20, 2014 and January 10, 2015, Darrell Davis was the best shooter on earth, even better than Steph Curry as he went 17 for 19 behind the three point line eventually leading him to the 3 point shooting title in the A-10. Aside for that five game stretch, he is a rather pedestrian 62 for 195 or 31.8% for the rest of his career.

I am concerned that we do not have the shooter that we were led to believe after his freshman year. If we don't pick up a shooter that will be immediately eligible for next season, it may be a rather disappointing year. There will be significant pressure on a solid group of seniors to make it to the second weekend of the tournament next year. Not sure the current group can do that with a limited ability to open things up without an outside threat. If you think Cooke is the guy, he shot 31% from 3 over the last 11 games of the season.

[Sea Bass]

IMO, the Flyers certainly lack a shooter that scares the opponents.

[DallasFlyer]

Posted in another thread, but he's the new Coby Turner. Minus a few lbs.

[Sea Bass]

the problem with DD this year was not just that he missed, but his misses were awful. Most were not even close to going in. Obviously if you make 17-19 you can shoot ... period. However, this year he seem to lose his fundamentals and was almost always off balance, fading, leaning, etc.

I am skeptical about him turning it around.

[ud69]

Originally Posted by John C. I am concerned that we do not have the shooter that we were led to believe after his freshman year. If we don't pick up a shooter that will be immediately eligible for next season, it may be a rather disappointing year. There will be significant pressure on a solid group of seniors to make it to the second weekend of the tournament next year. Not sure the current group can do that with a limited ability to open things up without an outside threat. If you think Cooke is the guy, he shot 31% from 3 over the last 11 games of the season.

And I am convinced Archie is thinking this same thing as well. Landers is not that guy. I just have no idea where Baby D's shot went.

[CraSch]

Well, at least that stretch is still better than Ramod Marshall's senior year. OK, I know that comment just put a whole bunch of people in a tizzy, but check out the shooting stats of Ramod's senior year:
37.9% from 3 as a Junior, only 30.7% on 67-218 shooting from 3 as a Senior.
Ooverall shooting of 42.8% as a Junior, a horrible 35.3% as a senior (only 40% from 2).

My point is not to rip on Ramod. He was a very important player in Flyer history, one of my favorite players and he helped lead us to a #4 seed in the tourney (we won't talk about the actual tourney game, blech). Yet he actually had a very poor Senior year, at least in terms of shooting the ball. My point is, everyone can have an off stretch, including a full season. I remember Ramod having major cramping issues his senior year. Maybe what caused those cause his shooting to be off, I don't know. Whatever the reason, he was a very poor shooter his Senior year after being a very solid shooter his prior 2 seasons (was also 37.2% as a Sophomore).

My 2nd point is....Darrell still has 2 years with us. Let's give him a chance to start his Junior year fresh. Maybe he'll re-find his stroke. Hopefully getting back to fundamentals in his form, as Sea Bass pointed out were flawed this past season.

Personally, I don't expect to ever see another 17-19 stretch, but I don't expect a repeat of this past season either. I think 38% is a very reasonable expectation for Darrell. Of course we all want him at 45%+, but I don't see it. But I definitely don't see another below 32% season either. He most of a Spring and an entire summer with a great coach that was a great shooter to learn from, I think DD will be fine.

[frisco flyer]

Baby D can't play the 2 at the next level, so he is trying to develop PG skills. All year he was caught in between, and didn't do either particularly well. I don't remember a single game where it was obvious that he had a shoot-first mentality. He had really good mechanics last year, not this year. I don't think he forgot how to do it, I just think he had too many other points of emphasis. I am hoping that the game will slow down for him next year (he always seemed like he was a little too quick for his own good this year) and he will return to the shooting form he displayed last year.

[Sea Bass]

We really don't know what happened with DD. Obviously something was amiss with his shooting and it didn't get better as the year went on. Hopefully DD and the staff kind find it and fix it in the off-season.

[Angry John]

Remember, he had two deaths in his family and his mother has been sick. You will lose your feel in sports that require a touch when things like that happen. We need to have some empathy and patience for DD in this matter.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer Baby D can't play the 2 at the next level, so he is trying to develop PG skills. All year he was caught in between, and didn't do either particularly well. I don't remember a single game where it was obvious that he had a shoot-first mentality. He had really good mechanics last year, not this year. I don't think he forgot how to do it, I just think he had too many other points of emphasis. I am hoping that the game will slow down for him next year (he always seemed like he was a little too quick for his own good this year) and he will return to the shooting form he displayed last year.

This is a good point. He did start as the back up at point. As Crosby improved, he had less time at point. If this is a contributing factor, Baby D should improve next year.

[AC91]

Baby D's issue, in my mind, is confidence and strength. You can still see he is tentative with the ball. I think after early his fresman season teams figured out they need to cover him, and that hurt the second half of freshman year because he had to do more than just shoot. and he simply didn't have the strength to do it last year. I actually saw some glimpses of what he can do, but i think he still needs to be stronger and more savvy to do it. this year he is still thinking too much. i really believe he has the potential to be terrific his last 2 years, but he has to get stronger and then be decisive on offense. I think Arch can get it out of him.

[OSU Flyer]

He had a reputation as a good shooter coming out of high school?

[jack72]

Many kids shoot well coming into their frosh year, Baby D and Mikesell are two examples, and Steve on his foul shooting and layups is another. They are loose and let it fly. Then it is like they realize where they are and the expectations, and they get some yips. Most mature and pick it up their junior and senior year.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass the problem with DD this year was not just that he missed, but his misses were awful. Most were not even close to going in. Obviously if you make 17-19 you can shoot ... period. However, this year he seem to lose his fundamentals and was almost always off balance, fading, leaning, etc. I am skeptical about him turning it around.

And SO...

am ..... I

[maddog07]

The next level, just what is that for him?? Some company YMCA team. Surely your not talking about pro ball for a guy who isn't even close to starting for a middling college team.
Posted via Mobile Device

[TommyGola]

I must comment on this. I had the pleasure of watching Darrell come off the bench in his first D-1 game last year. I am not certain whom the Flyers were playing in that game, but Darrell came and hit for 17 points. I thought, "Oh my, I relish the thought of watching him for the next four years." Well, he didn't disappoint last year and my expectations were very high for this year. They got even higher after I watched the Red and Blue game and noticed he had developed a move into the paint, something he did not do last year. But something very, very bad happened to his game right out of the gate this year. Last year this kid was having fun; he always had a smile on his face. This year, quite the opposite, he always had a frown on his face. I don't know what happened, but I have to speculate that the deaths in his family and perhaps a hidden injury kept his game in the dumper this year. I am hoping he finds the range next year, as we will need some shooters.

[TommyGola]

I found this video of Darrell's 2014/15 highlights...very impressive! Look how confident he was in his stroke...and it was compact, he was balanced, and his followthrough wrist is no more than a foot from his body. Now, I could not find any 2015/16 footage, but I vividly recall his followthrough was at least 18 inches from his body. And it always seemed that was off-balance. The bottom line is this: He has lost the compact nature of his stroke; in fact, finishing with his wrist as far away from his body as he did this year, he is in effect "throwing the ball," not "shooting the ball."

[Swampy Meadows]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer He had a reputation as a good shooter coming out of high school?

Yes, he did:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24687

[shocka43]

His form stunk a good portion of the year...that form failed due to rushed shots. Many of the bad misses he had this year were rushed and not in the flow of the offense. While he is ultimately responsible for the shots he fires up, I also wonder how the flow, or lack thereof, in the offense at times this year contributed at all.

He is a good shooter when he gets the ball in rhythm and is square. He is not good off the bounce or coming off screens. If it doesn't come from a rotation or skip, his percentages aren't good. Players at this level that are fairly one dimensional need to worry about what they can do on the team now, not worry about what they think they are going to do at any level beyond college. He isn't a good defender, isn't cut out to run point effectively, etc...he came in as a shooter. He needs to stick with what he knows and that isn't to worry about developing into a 1 for 3 years from now.

I don't know the stats, but if he spends half of his time on the court with an inefficient PG...ie. Crosby...he will suffer. He was definitely in a slump and he needs to own it...but I do believe there were some other on court factors that led to some of that.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by shocka43 I don't know the stats, but if he spends half of his time on the court with an inefficient PG...ie. Crosby...he will suffer. He was definitely in a slump and he needs to own it...but I do believe there were some other on court factors that led to some of that.

Challenge accepted!

So, plus/minus will give you time played on the court with another player:

 get_player_info  |   get_player_info    | ud   | opp  |   diff   | timeelps 
------------------+----------------------+------+------+----------+----------
 Scoochie Smith   | Darrell Davis        |  748 |  736 |       12 | 06:55:31
 Darrell Davis    | John Crosby          |  307 |  305 |        2 | 03:06:57

Basically, he was on the court with Scoochie twice as much as he was with Crosby.

So, then shooting stats:

 get_player_info  |      fg2      |      tp       |      ft       
------------------+---------------+---------------+---------------
 Scoochie Smith   | 22-47 (0.468) | 22-73 (0.301) | 7-13 (0.538)
 John Crosby      | 12-23 (0.522) | 9-33 (0.273)  | 12-17 (0.706)

Note: fg2 is specifically 2pt attempts only.

So, he shot the ball twice as much when Scoochie was on the court compared to when Crosby was on the court. But, he got to the free throw line more with Crosby on the court. Was this a case of having to be the play maker?

--Figgie

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by shocka43 His form stunk a good portion of the year...that form failed due to rushed shots. Many of the bad misses he had this year were rushed and not in the flow of the offense. While he is ultimately responsible for the shots he fires up, I also wonder how the flow, or lack thereof, in the offense at times this year contributed at all. He is a good shooter when he gets the ball in rhythm and is square. He is not good off the bounce or coming off screens. If it doesn't come from a rotation or skip, his percentages aren't good. Players at this level that are fairly one dimensional need to worry about what they can do on the team now, not worry about what they think they are going to do at any level beyond college. He isn't a good defender, isn't cut out to run point effectively, etc...he came in as a shooter. He needs to stick with what he knows and that isn't to worry about developing into a 1 for 3 years from now. I don't know the stats, but if he spends half of his time on the court with an inefficient PG...ie. Crosby...he will suffer. He was definitely in a slump and he needs to own it...but I do believe there were some other on court factors that led to some of that.

those items. Plus last year he kept getting the ball in the flow of the offense, often after 3 to 5 passes. Last years offense was a thing of beauty to watch.

We knew we needed to work the ball around to stall the clock some but mainly to get a great shot.

Nobody is mentioning the 30 second clock. That doesn't do favors for DD, and as sometimes he was the playmaker and driving, he was way off balance and rushed on 75% of his shots. Almost NOT the same player as in the previous year.

Personally i think the 30 second clock sucks. It favors the Oklahoma's and offensive studs of the world (No Carolina, Iowa State, Iowa) who can chuck shots and still make them.

[shocka43]

So more open looks with a more efficient PG and the lack of one in the other case...

Thanks Figgie...eye test backed by data on this one...

[John C.]

Maybe I am reading the stats incorrectly but it seems he shot better with Crosby on the court and shot about the same number of shots per minute. In addition, he was able to get to the foul line more often with Crosby on the court. Isn't that a positive?

Everyone keeps talking about his slump this year. Take away the 5 games of near perfection and he shot roughly the same his freshman year.

[UDBrian]

I am not concerned about dd's ability to shoot, just look at his shooting form. I do agree that some of his misses were so ugly it made you scratch your head

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by AC91 Baby D's issue, in my mind, is confidence and strength. You can still see he is tentative with the ball. I think after early his fresman season teams figured out they need to cover him, and that hurt the second half of freshman year because he had to do more than just shoot. and he simply didn't have the strength to do it last year. I actually saw some glimpses of what he can do, but i think he still needs to be stronger and more savvy to do it. this year he is still thinking too much. i really believe he has the potential to be terrific his last 2 years, but he has to get stronger and then be decisive on offense. I think Arch can get it out of him.

I wish I had the time and patience to go back 4 years and look for some posts after DMO's sophomore year. DD's career so far parallel's DMO's. You can see the talent but it seems locked away at times. Strength and confidence are both very important to success on the court. I know I personally got frustrated with both at this point in their respective careers mostly because you want them to succeed. It's not time to give up on DD yet!

[steve]

I beg to differ that he's not effective coming off of screens since I can't remember a single time he came off one rather than just sitting in a corner or out on a wing.....

Even then he never seemed to look to shoot first..It was a dribble here or there, a look to dump off down low, or a pass here..I thought that he would be used alot like Forbes at MSU in coming off plenty of screens...Yes, the stamina/strength issue probably has something to do with it as you get bumped quite a bit running off defenders, coming off screens, etc...

DD improved defensively getting steals , rebounding, and taking the ball to the rack and let's hope he can get his mind into a good spot, feel confident again, and do what he needs to physically both in the gym and out on the court this off season to improve...

I really think the offense took a hit this year with the concerted effort to recognize a real low post presence that UD hasn't had in years......It wasn't easy both finding Big Steve in certain spots because, at times, he wasn't there, and other times he was but the ball just didn't find it's way in there..With the reduced shot clock now down to 30 seconds that also positioned UD plenty of times into rushing a shot and/or not having the ball where it needed to be...

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by springborofan I wish I had the time and patience to go back 4 years and look for some posts after DMO's sophomore year. DD's career so far parallel's DMO's. You can see the talent but it seems locked away at times. Strength and confidence are both very important to success on the court. I know I personally got frustrated with both at this point in their respective careers mostly because you want them to succeed. It's not time to give up on DD yet!

I think we've been spoiled with the improvement of Sophomores the past few years under AM and now people have set a bar higher. I think you're still going to see different rates and patterns in improvement. Not every player coming in is going to leap from Freshman to Sophomore like SS, KD and KP. Some are going to improve a little and some are going to regress. When you have a kid who played such an important role in his freshman season, being thrown in with the wolves like DD, you don't give up on him because he regressed in his 2nd year.

One thing people don't look at is the way AM can improve a designated player's 3 point shooting. After his Freshman season I doubt AM spent much time working on DD's shooting, didn't look like it needed it and you don't fix something that wasn't broken. Well, now it's broken and you can bet the farm that AM will give him the time on his shooting that he gave DMO, JS and Cooke.

[maddog07]

Originally Posted by steve I beg to differ that he's not effective coming off of screens since I can't remember a single time he came off one rather than just sitting in a corner or out on a wing..... Even then he never seemed to look to shoot first..It was a dribble here or there, a look to dump off down low, or a pass here..I thought that he would be used alot like Forbes at MSU in coming off plenty of screens...Yes, the stamina/strength issue probably has something to do with it as you get bumped quite a bit running off defenders, coming off screens, etc... DD improved defensively getting steals , rebounding, and taking the ball to the rack and let's hope he can get his mind into a good spot, feel confident again, and do what he needs to physically both in the gym and out on the court this off season to improve... I really think the offense took a hit this year with the concerted effort to recognize a real low post presence that UD hasn't had in years......It wasn't easy both finding Big Steve in certain spots because, at times, he wasn't there, and other times he was but the ball just didn't find it's way in there..With the reduced shot clock now down to 30 seconds that also positioned UD plenty of times into rushing a shot and/or not having the ball where it needed to be...

e had 11- one every 3 games BFD!!!!!

[oldfan]

Originally Posted by shocka43 He isn't a good defender, isn't cut out to run point effectively, etc...he came in as a shooter. He needs to stick with what he knows and that isn't to worry about developing into a 1 for 3 years from now. .

I suspect the AM differs with that opinion. Wasn't DD given the award of the most improved player? I don't think that was because of improved shooting. He apparently was doing what the coaches expected him to do.

One of the big differences between BG and AM is the player development. I wonder whether Chris Wright would not have a spot on an NBA rooster today if he had been able to develop his entire game while in college. Instead Chris was virtually the same player leaving college as he was when he entered.

It is no wonder that DD shooting might suffer as he worries about all there is to be a complete player. Ie. he gets the ball. Should he shoot? should he drive? should he pass inside? should he pass across court? should he pass back? This is tougher than give me the ball and I shoot. He has to think rather than just react. The game has to slow down for him all over again as he adapts to the college game. I would expect him to be a vastly better shooter in his Junior and Senior years as he adapts to being a complete player and the game slows down for him.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by oldfan I suspect the AM differs with that opinion. Wasn't DD given the award of the most improved player? I don't think that was because of improved shooting. He apparently was doing what the coaches expected him to do. One of the big differences between BG and AM is the player development. I wonder whether Chris Wright would not have a spot on an NBA rooster today if he had been able to develop his entire game while in college. Instead Chris was virtually the same player leaving college as he was when he entered. It is no wonder that DD shooting might suffer as he worries about all there is to be a complete player. Ie. he gets the ball. Should he shoot? should he drive? should he pass inside? should he pass across court? should he pass back? This is tougher than give me the ball and I shoot. He has to think rather than just react. The game has to slow down for him all over again as he adapts to the college game. I would expect him to be a vastly better shooter in his Junior and Senior years as he adapts to being a complete player and the game slows down for him.

I agree with just about everything you said. But, DD won most improved player by default. There were 6 returning players. DP, KP, SS and KD played great last year and giving them the award would've been kind of insulting. That leaves BW and DD. BW certainly didn't improve in any area that I could see.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg