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07-21-2008, 02:55 PM
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Prestige Ranking
ESPN ranked all 300+ D-I basketball programs based on prestige since 1984. UD comes in at a tie for 168th with powerhouses such as Radford, Marshall, and Arkansas State. With the NCAA berths in the early 2000s, I would have thought we would be higher on the list. I think it's also a reflection on how bad the O'Brien years were. Though the poll is subjective and has little merit, it also serves as a reality check on posters on what we've really accomplished in the last 25 years.
Also, we finished ninth in the A-10 behind all but Fordham, St. Bonnies and Duquense. The top 8 were X, St. Joe, Richmond, Charlotte, G.W., La Salle, Rhode Island, and St. Louis.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481843#151
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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07-21-2008, 03:05 PM
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General of the Air Force
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It is hard to complain when the Flyers haven't won an NCAA tournament game in over 20 years. But, times are a changin. I believe that UD will be talked about in a different manner soon
It is all about winning and UD has fallen short, even in their best years. I want to be ranked at the end of the season, the middle the season doesn't mean much to me and I don't think it means much to BG.
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07-21-2008, 04:07 PM
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I Am A Statistical God
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Based on my NCAA Tournament stats, since the 1990 Tournament, there have been 265 teams playing in the tournament. Of those, 145 have won at least one game. (Though this includes the few #16 teams that won the opening round game...Florida A&M over Lehigh in 2004, for instance.)
John
Last edited by Figgie123; 07-22-2008 at 09:29 AM..
Reason: Fixed data, 265 teams, not 267 teams...
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07-21-2008, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GetFlyeredup
ESPN ranked all 300+ D-I basketball programs based on prestige since 1984. UD comes in at a tie for 168th with powerhouses such as Radford, Marshall, and Arkansas State. With the NCAA berths in the early 2000s, I would have thought we would be higher on the list. I think it's also a reflection on how bad the O'Brien years were. Though the poll is subjective and has little merit, it also serves as a reality check on posters on what we've really accomplished in the last 25 years.
Also, we finished ninth in the A-10 behind all but Fordham, St. Bonnies and Duquense. The top 8 were X, St. Joe, Richmond, Charlotte, G.W., La Salle, Rhode Island, and St. Louis.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481843#151
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Thanks for posting! At least ESPN gave some validity to these rankings when they assinged points for given categories. 168 is pretty pitiful, given the rich history and tradition that UD has. I wonder what the ranking would be if they went back to the 50s-60s. As all rankings and standings go, it's all about winning. Just win on the court and the rankings/standings will take care of themselves.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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07-21-2008, 04:30 PM
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This may help the confused on why we don't play the big boys at UD Arena.
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07-21-2008, 04:36 PM
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haha Bethune-Cookman tied for last
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07-21-2008, 04:43 PM
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Absolutely pitiful. I'm at a loss as to why a university like ours that devouts just about all of it's resources to men's basketball is floundering as we are....
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07-21-2008, 04:47 PM
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3 of our first 4 games are against 225 or worse teams... and wofford isnt even on the list. way to add to our prestige
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07-21-2008, 04:54 PM
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General
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Originally Posted by jcubspoe
Absolutely pitiful. I'm at a loss as to why a university like ours that devouts just about all of it's resources to men's basketball is floundering as we are....
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Maybe because we're run by such devote Catholics.
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07-21-2008, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by udstevied_D87
3 of our first 4 games are against 225 or worse teams... and wofford isnt even on the list. way to add to our prestige
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We didn't schedule Bethune-Cookman or Mercer. Playing them in the Chicago Invitational gives us the opportunity to play Marquette and Auburn. Maybe the Marquette game will add to our prestiege.
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07-21-2008, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Maybe because we're run by such devote Catholics.
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Good one.
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07-21-2008, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
We didn't schedule Bethune-Cookman or Mercer. Playing them in the Chicago Invitational gives us the opportunity to play Marquette and Auburn. Maybe the Marquette game will add to our prestiege.
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i know that, im just saying that it doesnt add to our prestige, and playing marquette and auburn in chicago really dont make up for the rest of the schedule...........which is a wholllle other topic in the other forums which im tired of talking about
Last edited by udstevied_D87; 07-21-2008 at 05:13 PM..
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07-21-2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
Based on my NCAA Tournament stats, since the 1990 Tournament, there have been 267 teams playing in the tournament. Of those, 145 have won at least one game. (Though this includes the few #16 teams that won the opening round game...Florida A&M over Lehigh in 2004, for instance.)
John
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Interesting Figgie.... could you put together a list of the more notable (if there are any) of those teams that havent won one tournament game since 1990? Have we heard of any of them?
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07-21-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Spuds
Thanks for posting! At least ESPN gave some validity to these rankings when they assinged points for given categories.
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No, they didn't. They count an NIT berth the same as an NCAA berth. Fail. Winning the SWAC counts the same as winning the Big East. Double fail.
This ranking, Titletown, being "Now", and $1.00 gets you a double cheeseburger from McDonald's.
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07-21-2008, 06:36 PM
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Hmmmm
It is just a ranking but I do have a simple issue on first glance at this. If you win a weak conference every year and only have 1 NCAA tournament victory in that time span you are in the top 50?
There is a reason you schedule southern conference teams in non-con ... it's called padding the schedule.
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07-21-2008, 07:12 PM
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Commander in Chief
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If you remember where we were in the late eighties and early nineties, you feel pretty good about where we are now. Stark contrast. IMO, we are putting together a consistant post season appearance team.
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07-21-2008, 07:27 PM
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Relax guys. They should re-name this poll the "What Have You Done for Me Lately" survey.
Had they taken this poll at the end of the '50s or the '60s, I would like to think that UD would be ranked a helluva lot higher.
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07-21-2008, 07:58 PM
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Sobering and disgusting at the same time.
This ain't the 50's or 60's....that's ancient history.
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07-21-2008, 08:32 PM
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Right on Dirty
That's the problem with too many Flyer fans. They like to talk about the 50's and 60's like they were just last week. Well, Tom Blackburn's bones are not going to rise out of the grave, and belt strapped nut hugger shorts will not be the latest in uniform technology any time soon.
What can you really argue with here? They're simple, factual numbers. If this were the 'Calgon' Ancient Chinese Secret Poll, I'm sure we'd be up there. It could be argued Tom Frericks wasn't ready for the expansion/tv age and we've paid the price for it. Sad we're one of the bottom feeders of the A10 with our tradition.
But hey, the 50's and 60's are right around the corner for all you old guard. All you need is a DeLorean, design plans for the Flex Capacitor, and some low grade plutonium you received in trade from some Libyan terrorists.
Last edited by ChrisSFlyer; 07-21-2008 at 08:35 PM..
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07-21-2008, 08:48 PM
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If the poll was for the past six years I would say it could be considered what have you done for me lately. 20 years without an ncaa win goes way beyond lately for me. I agree with the poster that this program is on the verge of very good things so it isn't anything to get bent out of shape about as it is past history. If the future didn't look MUCH brighter I wouldn't follow the team so closely.
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07-21-2008, 09:58 PM
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Who gives a **** about the 50s and 60s. The poll is fair enough. I think too many people on here think that others think higher of our program. They don't. It is what it is. Until we actually win a game or live up to our potential then we deserve to be in the bottom half of NCAA Men's programs.
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07-21-2008, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisSFlyer
Sad we're one of the bottom feeders of the A10 with our tradition.
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I wouldn't exactly call us one of the bottom feeders of the A-10. After all, we have been to 3 NCAA's and 3 NIT's in the last nine years.
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07-21-2008, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Spuds
At least ESPN gave some validity to these rankings when they assinged points for given categories.
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I must be missing something. Where does it say how points were assigned? Another thing, they missed our Elite 8 run in 83-84 by one year. I assume that would have made a huge difference in the ranking.
Edit: Nevermind, I found it.
Last edited by longtimefan; 07-21-2008 at 10:45 PM..
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07-21-2008, 10:46 PM
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• National title … 25
• Title game loss … 20
• National semifinal loss … 15
• Elite Eight loss … 10
• Best record in conference's regular season … 5
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5
• Sweet 16 loss … 5
• Conference tournament title … 3
• AP first-team All-American … 3
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2
• NIT title … 2
• AP second-team All-American … 2
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1
• NCAA tournament berth … 1
• Postseason NIT berth … 1
• AP third-team All-American … 1
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … -2
• Losing season … -3
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3
>> Minimum 15 seasons in Division I
** Ties are broken by overall winning percentage since the 1984-85 season
^^ Teams are listed by their current conferences
We were among the teams that scored 0 points or less. uggghhh
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07-21-2008, 10:52 PM
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Easy there ChrisS. I ain't saying let's live in the past, but the fact is UD was a power then and we haven't been recently.
All of that is about to change. Let's revisit this scoring system in 2 years and see how we look then, shall we?
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07-21-2008, 11:46 PM
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Commander in Chief
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1986 through 1996 (Averaging 12.92 wins, 16.82 losses, 0 NIT games and 2 NCAA games) is what kills us, so the choice of time periods isn't flattering for UD in this evaluation. 1997 through 2007 isn't looking too bad. (Averaging 19.82 wins, 11.64 losses, 10 NIT games and 3 NCAA games)
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07-22-2008, 08:05 AM
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That's fair Swamp. I was just saying it seems like too many people would rather hold onto ancient history instead of trying to help rewrite the history they are living in. Take the arena music for example. The staff there tried new music, and the old guard complained it wasn't like the old days. So we get Bob Seger, 18 year old Mike Buffer intros, and Cotton Eye Joe. I bet those people still think YMCA's in the top 10 on the pop charts.
I still get goosebumps when Enter Sandman was played for the UC game when the players ran out on the floor for warmups. We need more of that and less of Back to Life.
I equate it to some of what's going on with the Big 3. UD is like GM, once great in the 50's and 60's, but are now trying to maintain relevance in a changing market. The programs ranked higher in this poll are the Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai of the market. They figured out what the modern American wanted, and have grown exponentially for it.
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07-22-2008, 09:28 AM
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I Am A Statistical God
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Originally Posted by Muckem333
Interesting Figgie.... could you put together a list of the more notable (if there are any) of those teams that havent won one tournament game since 1990? Have we heard of any of them?
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You've probably heard of most of them, but didn't expect them to win.
(This is a list of teams that have played in the tourney since 1990, have not won a game and using current conference affiliations.)
Of the Big 6 Conferences: Baylor (0-1), Rutgers (0-1), Nebraska (0-5) (3, 8, 10, 6, and 11 seed, between 91 and 98)
Atlantic 10: Dayton, Fordham, LaSalle, St Bonaventure
Conference USA: East Carolina, Houston, Southern Methodist, Southern Mississippi, Central Florida
Missouri Valley: Drake (last year), Evansville, Missouri State, Northern Iowa
Most losses: Murray State (0-9)
3 with 5 losses: Holy Cross, Nebraska, and South Alabama
4 with 4 losses: Central Florida, Delaware, Iona, South Carolina State
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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07-22-2008, 09:31 AM
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General
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Originally Posted by hUDygrad
• National title … 25
• Title game loss … 20
• National semifinal loss … 15
• Elite Eight loss … 10
• Best record in conference's regular season … 5
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5
• Sweet 16 loss … 5
• Conference tournament title … 3
• AP first-team All-American … 3
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2
• NIT title … 2
• AP second-team All-American … 2
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1
• NCAA tournament berth … 1
• Postseason NIT berth … 1
• AP third-team All-American … 1
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … -2
• Losing season … -3
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3
>> Minimum 15 seasons in Division I
** Ties are broken by overall winning percentage since the 1984-85 season
^^ Teams are listed by their current conferences
We were among the teams that scored 0 points or less. uggghhh
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This is a moronic scoring system. 1 point for an NIT berth and 2 points for winning the whole da*n thing. . . yeah, that makes sense.
And the quality of your program over the last 20 years is somehow measured by NBA top 10 draft picks as being equal to winning the NIT tournament.
But, if you cheat to win ( UMass), you get +10 for your elite 8 and -3 for doing it, so a net +7.
But the best part has to be that the quality of your program over the last 20 years is basically measured by a single lucky season. If you win 20 games and your conference tournament to get an NCAA bid, win with an upset in the first round, lose your 2nd round game (an automatic 5 points for winning as a 12 seed, something that happens nearly every year), and do it all on the back of a single guy who is a 2nd team all-American and gets drafted by the NBA in the top 10, you get:
1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 14 points
Take the next 19 years off but avoid too many bad seasons and you're suddenly a top 100 (or better) program of the last 20 years.
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07-22-2008, 11:05 AM
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By my quick calcuations on a year by year basis
first ten years starting with Don Donoher's last year
-3 +8 -3 0 -3 -3 -3 0 -3 +2
total is negative 8
Last ten year starting with Oliver Purnell's fifth year
-3 +2 +2 +2 +3 +2 0 -3 0 +2
total is positive 7
Last edited by Furio; 07-22-2008 at 11:31 AM..
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07-22-2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
I wouldn't exactly call us one of the bottom feeders of the A-10. After all, we have been to 3 NCAA's and 3 NIT's in the last nine years.
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UD has only been in the A10 for the past 13 seasons. Regular A10 record of 116-92
which averages out to approx 9-7 per season.
The five losing season out of seven before UD joined the A10 is the killer.
The period starting with DD last 3 seasons and extending a season or two past the firing of Jim O'Brien are best forgotten.
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07-22-2008, 01:06 PM
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1 point for making the NCAA tournament
-2 for losing as a 4 seed.
We would have been better off being left out of the tournament according to this scientific system.
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07-22-2008, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
1 point for making the NCAA tournament
-2 for losing as a 4 seed.
We would have been better off being left out of the tournament according to this scientific system.
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By the official scoring system that year was a failure, placing us in the worst 100 teams in D1.
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07-22-2008, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
By the official scoring system that year was a failure, placing us in the worst 100 teams in D1.
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UD was given +3 that year accorded to this flawed system
1 pt for 20+ wins 3 pts for winning the a10 tourney 1 pt for an NCAA bid
subtract 2 for the first round loss.
If I was setting up the system I'd give 2 pts for an NCAA bid 1 pt for an NIT bid
0.5 pt deduction for an upset first round loss.
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07-22-2008, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows
Relax guys. They should re-name this poll the "What Have You Done for Me Lately" survey.
Had they taken this poll at the end of the '50s or the '60s, I would like to think that UD would be ranked a helluva lot higher.
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If this were the end of the 60's, we'd be a helluva lot happier with the program...which hasn't done anything for us lately!
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07-22-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Furio
UD was given +3 that year accorded to this flawed system
1 pt for 20+ wins 3 pts for winning the a10 tourney 1 pt for an NCAA bid
subtract 2 for the first round loss.
If I was setting up the system I'd give 2 pts for an NCAA bid 1 pt for an NIT bid
0.5 pt deduction for an upset first round loss.
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I forgot that we won the tournament that year.
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07-22-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
This is a moronic scoring system. 1 point for an NIT berth and 2 points for winning the whole da*n thing. . . yeah, that makes sense.
And the quality of your program over the last 20 years is somehow measured by NBA top 10 draft picks as being equal to winning the NIT tournament.
But, if you cheat to win (UMass), you get +10 for your elite 8 and -3 for doing it, so a net +7.
But the best part has to be that the quality of your program over the last 20 years is basically measured by a single lucky season. If you win 20 games and your conference tournament to get an NCAA bid, win with an upset in the first round, lose your 2nd round game (an automatic 5 points for winning as a 12 seed, something that happens nearly every year), and do it all on the back of a single guy who is a 2nd team all-American and gets drafted by the NBA in the top 10, you get:
1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 14 points
Take the next 19 years off but avoid too many bad seasons and you're suddenly a top 100 (or better) program of the last 20 years.
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This system is not to measure the quality of you program, but the prestiege of it.
While I disagrree with UMASS getting credit for their Final 4, I realize that most fans will remember their Final 4 appearance and forget (or never knew in the 1st place) that it was stripped. So in the general college basketball public's eye, their is prestiege there.
Likewise, winning NIT games is not prestiegous. And winning the NIT? How many typical CBB fans can name any of the last 5 NIT winners without looking it up. And for most all that can, it is because it somehow involved thier program. Had tOSU not knocked out UD, I doubt I'd know they won. If OP wasn't at Clemson, I doubt I'd know about their NIT run. And I can't remember if their won or lost the final.
That one magical year for Gearge Mason gave them a lot of prestiege. It did very little to improve the quality of their program, but in the CBB public eye, the prestige is there. Busting people's brackets, or making people's brackets is worth a lot. Have All-Americans and NBA guys that people remember, see on ESPN, and associate with your program add/subtract to the prestiege factor.
Winning your Mickey Mouse conference every year puts you on everybody's bracket. Everybody sees you, some pick you to win a game or two, and most everyone watches your game to se how their bracket is doing. So their is more prestiege to an ESPN matchup of Chattanooga @ Tennessee than UD @ Tennessee because CBB fans have seen Chattanooga on their brackets on a regular basis.
I thought ESPN did a pretty good job with this system.
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07-22-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd
1986 through 1996 (Averaging 12.92 wins, 16.82 losses, 0 NIT games and 2 NCAA games) is what kills us, so the choice of time periods isn't flattering for UD in this evaluation. 1997 through 2007 isn't looking too bad. (Averaging 19.82 wins, 11.64 losses, 10 NIT games and 3 NCAA games)
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Excellent point. We are much better off the last 10 years than the last 20 years. And, again, they missed our Elite 8 by one year.
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07-22-2008, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
You've probably heard of most of them, but didn't expect them to win.
(This is a list of teams that have played in the tourney since 1990, have not won a game and using current conference affiliations.)
Of the Big 6 Conferences: Baylor (0-1), Rutgers (0-1), Nebraska (0-5) (3, 8, 10, 6, and 11 seed, between 91 and 98)
Atlantic 10: Dayton, Fordham, LaSalle, St Bonaventure
Conference USA: East Carolina, Houston, Southern Methodist, Southern Mississippi, Central Florida
Missouri Valley: Drake (last year), Evansville, Missouri State, Northern Iowa
Most losses: Murray State (0-9)
3 with 5 losses: Holy Cross, Nebraska, and South Alabama
4 with 4 losses: Central Florida, Delaware, Iona, South Carolina State
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A notch worse than that would be Duquesne. Their last NCAA tournament game win was 1969.Their last NCAA tournament appearance was 1977.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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07-22-2008, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AQUDXU
This system is not to measure the quality of you program, but the prestiege of it. . . . I thought ESPN did a pretty good job with this system.
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Actually what ESPN says is "How do you rank the best programs in the modern era of college basketball?"
On the other hand, here is the definition of 'prestige': widespread respect and admiration felt for someone or something on the basis of a perception of their achievements or quality
So sticking to prestige, is Richmond really more prestigious than Notre Dame, West Virginia and BC (i.e. do they have more respect and admiration when talking college basketball)?
Are Ball State and Coppin State really more prestigious than Tennessee?
Or Southern University and Louisiana-Monroe, more prestigious than Georgia or Cal?
I guess the A10 should be greatful we have LaSalle because they are as prestigious as USC and more than Miami (Fla.)?
Look at the College of Charleston at 50. They have only one NCAA win in the time period (1997) but are 50 becasue they only have 1 losing season in that time frame. Do fans really pay attention as to records of teams over the years? Do most fans off the top of their heads know which Big West or Bik Sky or American East team has the most consecutive non-losing seasons and is that more prestigious than a recent final four run (e.g. George Mason)?
If a school is more prestigious than another school than the best should want to go there (let me knoiw when Coppin State beats out Tennessee for a recruit).
Prestige assumes common knowledge (widespread respect and admiration) and many of these teams had runs that no one remembers because they haven't done anything lately.
Last edited by NCkevi; 07-22-2008 at 08:24 PM..
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07-22-2008, 09:37 PM
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The fact that so many of you are trying to mathematically spin this ranking is what bothers me. It is what it is....is it flawed, maybe...but we have not won a tourney game in 20 years. That is what is flawed. We have great fans but we have nothing to show for it. That's all there is to it. Do you think anyone on ESPN is saying "Dayton is much better than where they are placed"....heck no. It's always 'next year'. It is great to have hope which we all do....however, at some point our program and ADMIN needs to be held accountable.
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07-22-2008, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by El Hombre
The fact that so many of you are trying to mathematically spin this ranking is what bothers me. It is what it is....is it flawed, maybe...but we have not won a tourney game in 20 years. That is what is flawed. We have great fans but we have nothing to show for it. That's all there is to it. Do you think anyone on ESPN is saying "Dayton is much better than where they are placed"....heck no. It's always 'next year'. It is great to have hope which we all do....however, at some point our program and ADMIN needs to be held accountable.
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If you want to hold them accountable, fine. Do what you have to do.
But don't use some ESPN filler as an argument. They literally count an NIT berth the same as an NCAA berth. Any basketball fan knows that's dumb. In theory, a team could win the regular season SWAC title every year, make the NIT every year, all the while having a barely over .500 record and score pretty high. It's illogical from the get go.
This is just ESPN doing what they always do, filling time in the summer. It's no different than Titletown or "Who's Now?". I can't see the point of even reading it, let alone having actual discussion on its merits.
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07-22-2008, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by El Hombre
The fact that so many of you are trying to mathematically spin this ranking is what bothers me. It is what it is....is it flawed, maybe...but we have not won a tourney game in 20 years. That is what is flawed. We have great fans but we have nothing to show for it. That's all there is to it. Do you think anyone on ESPN is saying "Dayton is much better than where they are placed"....heck no. It's always 'next year'. It is great to have hope which we all do....however, at some point our program and ADMIN needs to be held accountable.
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I don't disagree with what you said but I look at the talent on the floor. I think the players who are here now and coming in can be very good, and that gives you the chance of having a team that can make runs in the NCAA. Thankfully the short term future looks much better than the past 20 years
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07-23-2008, 08:18 AM
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It always seems like we are going 'all in' on next year or the year after that. Last year was supposed to be 'next year' and look what happened. It can all turn on a dime. I'm hopeful too, but I don't know if we can assume that we will be headed for greater success in the next two years. We have the elite player to take us there, we just need to have the others fall into place in their roles. That last part is why we were so good in the early 00's.
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07-23-2008, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
This is a moronic scoring system. 1 point for an NIT berth and 2 points for winning the whole da*n thing. . . yeah, that makes sense.
And the quality of your program over the last 20 years is somehow measured by NBA top 10 draft picks as being equal to winning the NIT tournament.
But, if you cheat to win (UMass), you get +10 for your elite 8 and -3 for doing it, so a net +7.
But the best part has to be that the quality of your program over the last 20 years is basically measured by a single lucky season. If you win 20 games and your conference tournament to get an NCAA bid, win with an upset in the first round, lose your 2nd round game (an automatic 5 points for winning as a 12 seed, something that happens nearly every year), and do it all on the back of a single guy who is a 2nd team all-American and gets drafted by the NBA in the top 10, you get:
1 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 14 points
Take the next 19 years off but avoid too many bad seasons and you're suddenly a top 100 (or better) program of the last 20 years.
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Adjust the time periods to include David Robinson, and does Navy become a top 30 program?
I certainly wouldn't put UD in the top tier over the past 20 years, but this scoring system is garbage.
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07-23-2008, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by El Hombre
The fact that so many of you are trying to mathematically spin this ranking is what bothers me. It is what it is....is it flawed, maybe...but we have not won a tourney game in 20 years. That is what is flawed. We have great fans but we have nothing to show for it. That's all there is to it. Do you think anyone on ESPN is saying "Dayton is much better than where they are placed"....heck no. It's always 'next year'. It is great to have hope which we all do....however, at some point our program and ADMIN needs to be held accountable.
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Pointing out flaws in this model is not an attempt by myself to make the UD record of the past 24 years look better. I don't need an elaborate model to tell me that there were 10 losing seasons in the last 24 years. Two entirely different issues. I simply feel ESPN could have done a better job. If anything I would argue those 4,6,7 win seasons should have been given a much worse rating.
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07-23-2008, 09:10 AM
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Following Furio's point, I hope no one got the impression that I thought UD got screwed by the scoring system. We don't deserve much more than that right now.
But the scoring system was still moronic.
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07-24-2008, 11:28 AM
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It isn't the smartest scoring system, that I definitely agree
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