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01-04-2018, 02:52 PM
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Difference between baskets at UD Arena
tl/dr: I think there is an (unintentional) bias between the two ends of the court at UD Arena that results in higher shooting percentages when attacking the southwest basket.
I have gradually been getting the impression that there is a difference between the rims/baskets at UD Arena. Perhaps one rim is tighter than the other, maybe the sight lines are slightly more favorable on one side.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I do not suggest the reason for this bias (if it even exists) is nefarious.
It seems to me that visiting teams usually shoot better (especially from distance) in the first half when attacking the southwest basket, while the Flyers tend to shoot better in the second half.
(Today is a bad day to mention this, as last night the Bonnies shot 0% 3FG in the first half.)
I realize there are a lot of variables, and maybe it's as simple as the student section is distracting shooters from both teams.
I'd love to see stats for the last 5+ years comparing
(first half visitor FGM/FGA and 3FGM/3FGA) plus (second half home shooting stats) versus their counterparts, but I don't have the slightest clue how to look them up. Or perhaps a comparison of UD's 3FG% by half when at home versus their season total.
Am I high? (I don't think so)
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-04-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg
Am I high? (I don't think so)
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Go post your thoughts on the marijuana thread in off topics and then we will decide.
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01-04-2018, 03:17 PM
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01-04-2018, 03:18 PM
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CE80 beat me to the punch.
I am certain that the one rim is 10 feet tall and the other is 11 feet high.
I think teams play better offense in front of their own bench and play better defense in front of their own bench. By how much? Not certain.
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01-04-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
I think teams play better offense in front of their own bench and play better defense in front of their own bench. By how much? Not certain.
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Does either Figgie or KenPom have this stat for us, as I would be willing to be your right. Not just at UD arena, but everywhere in the country.
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01-04-2018, 03:25 PM
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I'm not so sure...seems to me that teams typically score more in the 2nd half than 1st half, which indicates better shooting percentages. I hope Figgie keeps such stats...and a significant disparity would be a good conversation.
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01-04-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I'm not so sure...seems to me that teams typically score more in the 2nd half than 1st half, which indicates better shooting percentages. I hope Figgie keeps such stats...and a significant disparity would be a good conversation.
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If you stayed in your seat at halftime instead of going out to urinate for the 4th time, you would see arena staff come out with the rim stretcher, making the hole bigger.
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01-04-2018, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
If you stayed in your seat at halftime instead of going out to urinate for the 4th time, you would see arena staff come out with the rim stretcher, making the hole bigger.
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I can only imagine what gif is going to show up next.
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01-04-2018, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80
Go post your thoughts on the marijuana thread in off topics and then we will decide.
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I'm very opinionated, but not on udpride.com.
Edit to add: I am in the restaurant business. Anything that increases people's appetites would be generally in my favor.
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01-04-2018, 04:39 PM
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Ok, given this topic and deflate-gate, do the refs check the rims and the ball pressure before every game??
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01-04-2018, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
I think teams play better offense in front of their own bench and play better defense in front of their own bench. By how much? Not certain.
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But that doesn't explain why visiting teams seem to shoot better in the first half when attacking the basket furthest from their bench (and UD is defending closest to their own bench).
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01-04-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time
You're probably high.
There is an NCAA rim testing rule and a device to test the tension with. See the video below
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That seems to rule out the basket itself. However, a small difference in sight lines could come into play.
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01-04-2018, 05:06 PM
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It's not the rims. That's ridiculous. It's the River. It changes the air flow on the east side of the arena which in turn makes hitting an outside shot comparative to hitting a hole in one.
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01-04-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R
Ok, given this topic and deflate-gate, do the refs check the rims and the ball pressure before every game??
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I'm sure they do but it's 2nd on the agenda right after they review film of an offensive player dribbling/changing direction by putting his hand palm side up on the underside of the basketball cradling it and then put it back on the floor reassuring each other this is not a violation.
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01-04-2018, 05:15 PM
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I would attribute the second half shooting differential to the "feeling out-process" of each other's opponent in the first half; to getting warmed-up physically and psychologically; and last, but most importantly, receiving the almighty halftime earful and arse chewing from the head basketball coach.
Or, one might consider the different dynamics of and sense of urgency that comes toward the end of a contest versus the first half when you seemingly still have endless chances and opportunities to get it right.
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01-04-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R
Ok, given this topic and deflate-gate, do the refs check the rims and the ball pressure before every game??
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Rims...no. Things like that are done by arena staff and you assume the rim is at 10' and the court is 94' and FT line is at 15', etc...
Ball...yes. But not with a gauge. A simple 'bounce' test is all that's necessary. You hold the ball at chest/shoulder level and drop it. It should bounce up close to your waist. Lower and it needs air. Higher and you let air out.
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01-04-2018, 05:31 PM
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We shall not have any problems letting air out on this board; in-fact, I would say were due.
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01-04-2018, 05:43 PM
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And to think it all began with a peach basket! I wonder what Dr. Naismith would say?
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01-04-2018, 05:43 PM
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01-04-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach
I would attribute the second half shooting differential to the "feeling out-process" of each other's opponent in the first half; to getting warmed-up physically and psychologically; and last, but most importantly, receiving the almighty halftime earful and arse chewing from the head basketball coach.
Or, one might consider the different dynamics of and sense of urgency that comes toward the end of a contest versus the first half when you seemingly still have endless chances and opportunities to get it right.
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You're misunderstanding the thread. I am NOT asking why teams score more in the second half. That's a known phenomenon and is easy to understand.
I'm contending that at UD Arena, the team attacking the southwest basket (visiting team in the first half and the UD Flyers in the second half) shoots better, especially from distance, than the team attacking the northeast basket (UD before half, opponent after).
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01-04-2018, 07:28 PM
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You need to drink less, or possibly more. But don't stay at the same absorption rate.
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01-04-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg
You're misunderstanding the thread. I am NOT asking why teams score more in the second half. That's a known phenomenon and is easy to understand.
I'm contending that at UD Arena, the team attacking the southwest basket (visiting team in the first half and the UD Flyers in the second half) shoots better, especially from distance, than the team attacking the northeast basket (UD before half, opponent after).
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Here are the visiting team stats re: pts and % and 3-pt shooting by halves.
Opponent.........1st half PTS(%)............2nd half PTS(%)......1st half 3s...........2nd half 3s
Ball State.............33(37.5%).................44(54% )................5/16...................4/11
Akron...................37(50%)................... .23(36%)...............6/20...................1/8
Auburn..................35(32%)................... 38(46%)...............6/16...................4/9
Tenn Tech.............24(32%).....................42(54 %)..............3/11...................7/13
Penn.....................35(48%).................. ..43(65%)...............8/14..................5/8
Geo State..............36(48%)....................39(5 2%)...............5/10..................5/9
Wagner.................21(28%).................... .46(45%)..............3/11...................4/16
St. Bonnie.............25(36%).....................47( 42%)...............0/7....................8/18
TOTALS................211 pts......................284 pts..................36/98(36.7%).....38/92(41.3%)
You can make your own conclusions from here...
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01-04-2018, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Here are the visiting team stats re: pts and %. I don't have time to add UD's comparative numbers but it's a good start.
Opponent.........1st half PTS(%)............2nd half PTS(%)
Ball State.............33(37.5%).................44(54% )
Akron...................37(50%)................... .23(36%)
Tenn Tech.............24(32%).....................42(54 %)
Penn.....................35(48%).................. ..43(65%)
Geo State..............36(48%)....................39(5 2%)
Wagner.................21(28%).................... .46(45%)
St. Bonnie.............25(36%).....................47( 42%)
TOTALS................211 pts......................284 pts
You can make your own conclusions from here...
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You forgot Auburn 35(32.3%) 38(46.1%)
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01-04-2018, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
If you stayed in your seat at halftime instead of going out to urinate for the 4th time, you would see arena staff come out with the rim stretcher, making the hole bigger.
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A case of proctology 101 if ever there was one!
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01-04-2018, 08:46 PM
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01-05-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Here are the visiting team stats re: pts and % and 3-pt shooting by halves.
Opponent.........1st half PTS(%)............2nd half PTS(%)......1st half 3s...........2nd half 3s
Ball State.............33(37.5%).................44(54% )................5/16...................4/11
Akron...................37(50%)................... .23(36%)...............6/20...................1/8
Auburn..................35(32%)................... 38(46%)...............6/16...................4/9
Tenn Tech.............24(32%).....................42(54 %)..............3/11...................7/13
Penn.....................35(48%).................. ..43(65%)...............8/14..................5/8
Geo State..............36(48%)....................39(5 2%)...............5/10..................5/9
Wagner.................21(28%).................... .46(45%)..............3/11...................4/16
St. Bonnie.............25(36%).....................47( 42%)...............0/7....................8/18
TOTALS................211 pts......................284 pts..................36/98(36.7%).....38/92(41.3%)
You can make your own conclusions from here...
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Conclusion: You stink at transcription and math.
Akron: 5/12, not 6/20.
1st half TPA: 16 + 20 + 16 + 11 + 14 + 10 + 11 + 7 = 105, not 98.
As for sheg's thoughts...I've gone back to the 2009-10 season, and there is no large difference for home game half percentages.
(all stats listed are for UD 1st half/opp 2nd half vs UD 2nd half/opp 1st half)
6 of 9 season total FG pct is better in 2nd half, while 7 of 9 3pt pct is better 2nd half.
Sometimes the difference is negligible though, .340 1H/3ptr .346 2H/3ptr (10-11) , or .355 vs .360 (11-12). We've had a .290 vs .387 (09-10) and a .377 vs .315 (14-15) as years for 3ptr as well. Range of difference is from .0052 to .0965 for 3pts only, and .0033 to .0479 for all FG attempts.
Overall, from the 09-10 season through the win against Bonnies, UD 2nd half and opponent 1st half is better shooting at 3pts at .0187 pct (34.2 vs 36.1), and overall FG at .0176 (43.1 vs 44.8).
Stats provided by Figstats.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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Last edited by Figgie123; 01-05-2018 at 01:38 PM..
Reason: swapped fg and 3pt pcts at bottom
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01-05-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
Conclusion: You stink at transcription and math.
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The funny thing about my math 'transcriptions' was that I was posting that summary while teaching a math class at Sinclair. I should have had one of my students double check my work before posting it for Prof. Figgie's consideration.
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01-05-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
Overall, from the 09-10 season through the win against Bonnies, UD 2nd half and opponent 1st half is better shooting at 3pts at .0187 pct (34.2 vs 36.1), and overall FG at .0176 (43.1 vs 44.8).
Stats provided by Figstats.
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Thanks Figgie for the look-up. So the bottom line is an almost 2% difference in FGM when attacking the southwest basket. Not huge, but statistically significant over such a big sample size.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-05-2018, 06:23 PM
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Sheq - you may have something here...maybe the background, noise, what-ever. But it is an interesting theory.
I wish there were better statistics to support or discount your potential theory.
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01-05-2018, 08:26 PM
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I am thinking it is the tunnel vortex effect depressing the opponent first half shooting percentage. No such tunnel or vortex on the other end.
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01-06-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sheg
Thanks Figgie for the look-up. So the bottom line is an almost 2% difference in FGM when attacking the southwest basket. Not huge, but statistically significant over such a big sample size.
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That was my conclusion as well but thought I was missing something based on Figgie's tone. It does not appear to be random.
So there IS a statistically identifiable difference, yes? Figgie?
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01-06-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
That was my conclusion as well but thought I was missing something based on Figgie's tone. It does not appear to be random.
So there IS a statistically identifiable difference, yes? Figgie?
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Here's what I wrote about the yearly extreme, high and low:
Originally Posted by Figgie123
Sometimes the difference is negligible though, .340 1H/3ptr .346 2H/3ptr (10-11) , or .355 vs .360 (11-12). We've had a .290 vs .387 (09-10) and a .377 vs .315 (14-15) as years for 3ptr as well. Range of difference is from .0052 to .0965 for 3pts only, and .0033 to .0479 for all FG attempts.
Overall, from the 09-10 season through the win against Bonnies, UD 2nd half and opponent 1st half is better shooting at 3pts at .0187 pct (34.2 vs 36.1), and overall FG at .0176 (43.1 vs 44.8).
Stats provided by Figstats.
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My perspective is that when we have such large discrepancies in certain years (6% or 10%), and some miniscule ones (.5% and .6%) in others, it seems more random.
Why did they both shoot 6% better in 14-15 facing the student section? In 09-10, the student side was 10% worse. Why was that?
And 2% better, is what, 1 basket per game? On average? Over 9 years, if the student section end hit 36.1% instead of 34.2% on 3ptrs, we would have made 54 more baskets. Or 6 per year. Or .2 (approx-30gms) per game.
But, again, that's just my perspective. I'm just a data gatherer and retriever. I think I got a B- in Stats in Sherman Hall back in '90. But I got a 4.0 in my computer classes.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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Last edited by Figgie123; 01-06-2018 at 10:05 AM..
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01-06-2018, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
Here's what I wrote about the yearly extreme, high and low:
My perspective is that when we have such large discrepancies in certain years (6% or 10%), and some miniscule ones (.5% and .6%) in others, it seems more random.
Why did they both shoot 6% better in 14-15 facing the student section? In 09-10, the student side was 10% worse. Why was that?
And 2% better, is what, 1 basket per game? On average? Over 9 years, if the student section end hit 36.1% instead of 34.2% on 3ptrs, we would have made 54 more baskets. Or 6 per year. Or .2 (approx-30gms) per game.
But, again, that's just my perspective. I'm just a data gatherer and retriever. I think I got a B- in Stats in Sherman Hall back in '90. But I got a 4.0 in my computer classes.
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One thing the stats need to break down is the quality of the competition At one basket a game, weak buy game teams can skew the numbers.
I wonder what just A10 play during each of those seasons would show.
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01-06-2018, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg
Am I high? (I don't think so)
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Yes sheg. Yes you are.
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01-06-2018, 03:14 PM
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Jan 6, 2018 vs Massachusetts:
2 and 3 pts:
Student Section basket: UD: 12-24 Mas: 14-24 Total: 26-48 = 54.2%
Home tunnel basket: UD: 8-23 Mas: 10-28 Total: 18-51 = 35.3%
3ptrs:
Student Section basket: UD: 6-13 Mas: 3-7 Total: 9-20 = 45%
Home tunnel basket: UD: 3-11 Mas: 3-10 Total: 6-21 = 28.6%
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