Archie vs. AG

[UncleFester]

Everytime we go thru a coaching change, a lot of us get upset that said former coach left us
for greener pastures, leaving us with quotes of false allegiance. In turn, most wring their brain in frustration
for not being able to keep a mediocre coach for the long haul. "We need a coach who sees Dayton
as a destination instead of a stepping stone". So, this time they hire a better coach than all save Archie,
who loves his school, has probably been dreaming of this moment, who we would have been happy
with above Archie at his hiring, and looks at this as a destination job for him. I am totally dumbfounded by those who
think there was a better choice ANYWHERE.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by TA111 Obviously, there's risk in any decision, but if I'm hiring the next CEO I would feel more comfortable with my next CEO having "been there, done that". I suspect that was the mindset of Neil and his team.

Even a CEO who's failed? And make no mistake about it, AG has failures among his successes. His main successes he only gets partial credit for because it seems he's either an assistant when they happen or left for another job before they came to fruition.

It's not that simple, I think I'd prefer the COO who might just have more knowledge of how the company has been run so successfully to the failure CEO coming in and turning the successful company upside down.

Yeah, I think in general I'd prefer "Thanks for the promotion, I've learned from my predecessor and understand his plans, strategies, policies and procedures and look forward to carrying that forward with little disruption" to "Thanks for another chance, I've learned from all my failures and will certainly not make the same mistakes that crashed my previous corporation".

[TA111]

AG is hardly a failure. Again, almost all head coaching openings at top programs are filled by existing head coaches. I think all these AD's know a lot more than you or I as to why that is the case. Experience counts.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by TA111 AG is hardly a failure. Again, almost all head coaching openings at top programs are filled by existing head coaches. I think all these AD's know a lot more than you or I as to why that is the case. Experience counts.

Experience counts but is not the end all. AG was a failure at his last coaching gig. The excuses from UD fans about his Alabama stint are a bad sign of what's going to happen if he fails here.

Look, I realize he's not a total failure, he's had successes like I said. I have hope that he's going to take us to a new level. I'm just putting it out there that there's a real risk both ways. I personally feel that if AG fails, it might set us back much further than if an assistant under the predecessor for 6 years fails. It's a lot easier to compare apples to apples(UD's success under AM to what happens under his assistant) then it is to compare apples to oranges(UD's success under AM to a completely different system).

Oh, and as far as top jobs being filled by existing head coaches, first of all AG was not an existing head coach when we hired him and please name programs comparable to UD's that hires from outside that continues to have sustained success.

[Flyer 86]

Theoretical going.... looking back.

Say we made Final 8 this year and Big Steve was still with us (God rest his soul).
Does Arch have the Big Man so many programs desire and stay at UD?

LIKE I SAY, just something to chew on.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Experience counts but is not the end all. AG was a failure at his last coaching gig. The excuses from UD fans about his Alabama stint are a bad sign of what's going to happen if he fails here. Look, I realize he's not a total failure, he's had successes like I said. I have hope that he's going to take us to a new level. I'm just putting it out there that there's a real risk both ways. I personally feel that if AG fails, it might set us back much further than if an assistant under the predecessor for 6 years fails. It's a lot easier to compare apples to apples(UD's success under AM to what happens under his assistant) then it is to compare apples to oranges(UD's success under AM to a completely different system). Oh, and as far as top jobs being filled by existing head coaches, first of all AG was not an existing head coach when we hired him and please name programs comparable to UD's that hires from outside that continues to have sustained success.

When Mark Turgeon left Wichita St they hired Gregg Marshall
Xavier hired Matta away from Butler when Skip left
VCU hired all of their HC as assistants till Shaka from outside the program

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Flyer 86]

Looking at AG at Bama....2 of the 3 NIT years, Alabama was a Bubble miss team for sure.

At VCU his 3 years, they killed it. Outstanding in conference and overall record 3 years running.

Honestly I think he should have stayed at VCU another 2 to 3 years.

[ud2]

I think Archie and his 3 assistants are very likely very angry with UD right now for not hiring one of the 3 assistants to be the next hc.

Archie leads UD on its best run of seasons in 30 years, and UD does not reward one of the assistants with the hc job.

And I think those 4 guys have every right to be ticked off.

Great work should be rewarded, not disregarded.

[Chris R]

The UD head coaching position is not a reward. UD owed those assistants absolutely nothing other than due diligence. This isnt the British crown. Dayton is responsible for hiring the best person for the job.

Are we still aggravated Ron Jirsa didn't get the job either?

[THirt]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think Archie and his 3 assistants are very likely very angry with UD right now for not hiring one of the 3 assistants to be the next hc. Archie leads UD on its best run of seasons in 30 years, and UD does not reward one of the assistants with the hc job. And I think those 4 guys have every right to be ticked off. Great work should be rewarded, not disregarded.

This is a bad take. If UD thought one of the assistants was the best choice for the head coaching position, they would have offered the job to that guy.

Are you honestly saying that as a reward for a few good years, one of the three should have been promoted to head coach? Really?

And if so, who? I liked our three assistants a lot. I still hope Coach O stays. But the guy who left us is angry at us for not hiring one of his assistants? Sorry, that's just foolish. Silliness.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Chris R The UD head coaching position is not a reward. UD owed those assistants absolutely nothing other than due diligence. This isnt the British crown. Dayton is responsible for hiring the best person for the job. Are we still aggravated Ron Jirsa didn't get the job either?

I obviously disagree on this point too. I think one of the three assistants was the better choice.

And it's certainly debatable if Jirsa would have been the better choice vs. BG IMO.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by THirt This is a bad take. If UD thought one of the assistants was the best choice for the head coaching position, they would have offered the job to that guy. Are you honestly saying that as a reward for a few good years, one of the three should have been promoted to head coach? Really? And if so, who? I liked our three assistants a lot. I still hope Coach O stays. But the guy who left us is angry at us for not hiring one of his assistants? Sorry, that's just foolish. Silliness. Posted via Mobile Device

See my previous post.

Disagree, I bet that Archie is not at all pleased that one of his assistants did not get the UD job.

I think it is a slap in the face to Archie honestly.

I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

[THirt]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think it is a slap in the face to Archie honestly. I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

These two statements have nothing to do with each other.

And the first one is false.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

Originally Posted by THirt These two statements have nothing to do with each other. And the first one is false. Posted via Mobile Device

Agree to disagree.

Maybe I am stating it a little too strongly, but I definitely think those 4 are upset that one of the 3 assistants did not get the hc job.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by ud2 Disagree, I bet that Archie is not at all pleased that one of his assistants did not get the UD job.

Why should we care what Archie Miller thinks. He doesnt work here. His replacement is none of his business. If his feelings are hurt, get a thicker skin.

Did VCU care what Jeff Capel thought when he left VCU for Oklahoma and VCU chose to hire Anthony Grant instead of an assistant coach.

Archie Miller hasnt thought about Dayton for more than maybe 5 minutes in the last 7-10 days. I dont know why Flyer fans don't reciprocate and cut the cord -- because he has -- as he should.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by ud2 ...I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

And this is different from the past 100+ years of UD Basketball...how?

Yes, I "get" that their current coach is our former coach. But if IU thinks they can profit from playing UD, they'll schedule us. Otherwise, you might as well have Adele on the other end of the telephone line ("Hello?"), because nobody will acknowledge our desire to play them.

Here's another take on that. If we didn't play IU at a time when our coaches were friends of each other (Donoher & Knight), the likelihood of us playing them now is pretty darned slim.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[CT Flyer]

So far I've learned on this board that Archie will keep "rolling" players to UD, be an ambassador for the University and he's mad at UD because they didn't hire one of his assistants...Is he still on the payroll, because if he cared that much wouldn't he still be our coach? Maybe UD is going to ask him to be on the Board of Directors.

He was great here, he liked it here while he was here, he's thankful for the opportunity UD afforded him, he left, he is fully immersed in his new job, he's not looking back, he's not coming back, he's not recruiting for us anymore...can we just be thankful for what he did in his time here, wish him well in the future and move on. PLEASE!

[steve]

Originally Posted by ud2 See my previous post. Disagree, I bet that Archie is not at all pleased that one of his assistants did not get the UD job. I think it is a slap in the face to Archie honestly. I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

LMAO. Well maybe ol' Archie should have just better prepared his coaches for this type of opportunity and maybe listened to ol' Tom and/or Kevin when maybe THEY wanted to trap a bit more, run the full court press more, or worked on a little more zone in practice so they could mix it up in a game since their BIGS usually got in deep foul trouble..

AM was, is, and will still be a very young coach going forward and I'm sure he'll realize he can't do everything, not everything he does works to perfection, and he'll learn to delegate more responsibilities and probably even adhere to the advice more of his assistants...I know very little more than anyone else here but I do know AM could be quite stubborn as I've seen it in games and heard about it through some practices..

[Medford]

Originally Posted by ud2 I obviously disagree on this point too. I think one of the three assistants was the better choice. And it's certainly debatable if Jirsa would have been the better choice vs. BG IMO.

You would quite literally be the only person debating that Jirsa should have been choosen over BG at this point. One is a head coach in the AAC, the other is an assitant at Radford.

You are correct, Indiana will never schedule UD while Archie is head coach there, but the were never going to schedule UD when Knight, Sampson, Crean or anyone else was coach there. You seem to be grasping for straws at this point when the truth is simple, no one truely knows whom the best choice for head coach is, and we won't know for several seasons. The fact that none of the assistants have seriously been in discussions to be head coaches anywhere else speaks some volume about the confidence the D1 college basketball world has in them to lead a program.

As Bob Seger once sang, "its time to turn the page".

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Medford You would quite literally be the only person debating that Jirsa should have been choosen over BG at this point. One is a head coach in the AAC, the other is an assitant at Radford. You are correct, Indiana will never schedule UD while Archie is head coach there, but the were never going to schedule UD when Knight, Sampson, Crean or anyone else was coach there. You seem to be grasping for straws at this point when the truth is simple, no one truely knows whom the best choice for head coach is, and we won't know for several seasons. The fact that none of the assistants have seriously been in discussions to be head coaches anywhere else speaks some volume about the confidence the D1 college basketball world has in them to lead a program. As Bob Seger once sang, "its time to turn the page".

Or...

Beautiful loser
Where you gonna fall?
When you realize, you just can't have it all

[NJFlyr71]

UD2, Smitty, et'al

I think you are upset cause no one in the UD admin asked your opinion during the search.

They did not ask you to interview the prospects with your probing questions, and;

They didn't pick the HC or Assistant you desired.

So now you need to tell everyone what they should have done, according to your way of thinking. And to tell everyone multiple times why you are correct and everyone including the Admin is crazy for what they did or think.

So let's have everyone agree with you all and we can all sit by the way side this off season and fret about the coming catastrophe.

[Gazoo]

Wow, there's a stunning amount of crap on this thread in only a few hours.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Why should hiring an assistant that's been there right next to your coach every step of the way for the past 6 seasons be any riskier than bringing someone in from the outside? The vision of UD basketball program, did that change because Archie left? Then it doesn't sound like much of a vision if it's dependent upon what personnel you have to work with at the time.

I always appreciate a good post by Smitty where he totally loses sight of reality. Smitty: re-read your post with the following assumption in mind: AG and the existing assistants HAVE THE SAME VISION. So no one is lacking an alignment with that vision.

Now, after a deep breath, do you realize how dumb your entire post looks? Take a deep breath next time and examine your assumptions.

Answer to the question "why is it riskier": the next time you're on a plane and there's a crisis, have the guy in the jumpseat take the controls. "I've watched the pilot do this 100 times, and I did some flight simulations, I'm pretty sure I can do it." Sure, maybe he can. Maybe you've got a terrible pilot and Jumpseat Guy is even better. Maybe not. You generally want to go with a pilot who's tried this before, IF THAT'S AN OPTION. Sometimes the available pilots are so bad that jumpseat guy might actually be better.

After your interview with AG, what is your opinion?

Originally Posted by ud2 Exactly. All 3 of our assistants were there every single step of the way over the past 6 years.

Jumpseat Guy.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Anyway you look at it, if assistant fails, we can correct mistake in 2 years, if AG fails, I'm afraid we're going to be talking about getting this program back to the Archie days well into the 2020s.

This is the single most myopic, self-serving, unsupportable statement I think I have ever seen on any message board.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Answer to the question "why is it riskier": the next time you're on a plane and there's a crisis, have the guy in the jumpseat take the controls. "I've watched the pilot do this 100 times, and I did some flight simulations, I'm pretty sure I can do it." Sure, maybe he can. Maybe you've got a terrible pilot and Jumpseat Guy is even better. Maybe not. You generally want to go with a pilot who's tried this before, IF THAT'S AN OPTION. Sometimes the available pilots are so bad that jumpseat guy might actually be better.

Give me Ted Striker every time!

[TA111]

Gazoo, I wish I had thought of the "jump seat guy" analogy. Nicely done.

[UDBaby]

Originally Posted by ud2 See my previous post. Disagree, I bet that Archie is not at all pleased that one of his assistants did not get the UD job. I think it is a slap in the face to Archie honestly. I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

Sorry ud2, but.....

1. I for one don't give a ratz hairy arse what Archie thinks at this point....

And..

2. Me thinks you might also be projecting just a bit...

[BRob2Perryman3]

[QUOTE=T-Bone 84;502177] Otherwise, you might as well have Adele on the other end of the telephone line ("Hello?"),

Ray Harper wrote the lyrics for "Hello"

[IndianaFlyer]

Why do some insist on calling Archie a great coach? A list of great coaches just off the top of my head would include people like Wooden, Smith, Donoher, krzyzewski, Knight, Rupp, Calhoun, Calipari, Pitino, Williams, and the like. Do you really think a coach with 6 years head coaching experience at Dayton belongs on a list with those and other great coaches?

Archie struck gold with one recruiting class. He went to the NCAA tourney 4 out of 6 years, with one deep run in those 4 trips. I certainly think Archie raised our program to a higher level than it was before he came. But, he didn't raise it to a higher level than I expect. I expect 4 trips out of each 6 years. I expected the next coach to be able to recruit better and maintain or exceed those tourney runs. Neil decided the person best situated to do that was AG. I believe he can.

And as far as Archie, he may very well be a great coach, someday. He will prove that over the course of a career. He chose to leave, and my support now goes to AG, our coach. If Archie thought his assistants were good enough to run the Flyer program, seems that he would have just taken them all to his new program. He didn't, he went outside that circle for his AHC. Not a great testimonial to his assistants. In his mind they rank below Bruiser Flint. I like them all and would be glad for any who stay, but, there is a reason Neil selected AG.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer Why do some insist on calling Archie a great coach? A list of great coaches just off the top of my head would include people like Wooden, Smith, Donoher, krzyzewski, Knight, Rupp, Calhoun, Calipari, Pitino, Williams, and the like. Do you really think a coach with 6 years head coaching experience at Dayton belongs on a list with those and other great coaches? Archie struck gold with one recruiting class. He went to the NCAA tourney 4 out of 6 years, with one deep run in those 4 trips. I certainly think Archie raised our program to a higher level than it was before he came. But, he didn't raise it to a higher level than I expect. I expect 4 trips out of each 6 years. I expected the next coach to be able to recruit better and maintain or exceed those tourney runs. Neil decided the person best situated to do that was AG. I believe he can. And as far as Archie, he may very well be a great coach, someday. He will prove that over the course of a career. He chose to leave, and my support now goes to AG, our coach. If Archie thought his assistants were good enough to run the Flyer program, seems that he would have just taken them all to his new program. He didn't, he went outside that circle for his AHC. Not a great testimonial to his assistants. In his mind they rank below Bruiser Flint. I like them all and would be glad for any who stay, but, there is a reason Neil selected AG.

Is AM a great coach? Well, of course the jury is still out. He's only coached for 6 seasons and if he flames out in his next 6 then no he's not. But with the data we have in right now, he's on track to being one.

4 out of 6 seasons is a misleading stat. Is it really fair to not give a coach his first 2 years to get his own team on the court? Do you really think any of those other great coaches you listed would've taken those first two teams he inherited, plus Gavrilovich(fr. and so.), Pierre, Scott, Robinson and Price(all freshman) to the dance?

He did some incredible things in the his 3rd through 6th seasons. 2014-2015 was historic.

Also, if you think getting to the NCAA every 4 out of 6 years is what you would expect out of a coach that isn't great, why do you list Donoher who only made it 7 times in 25 full seasons? Not saying Donoher wasn't a great coach but it contradicts your reason for minimizing what AM did here, ALOT.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[The Fly]

Just for clarification, Donoher took teams to the NCAA nine times. But seven of those were in his first 10 years. He made the dance six of his first seven seasons, which is pretty impressive.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by The Fly Just for clarification, Donoher took teams to the NCAA nine times. But seven of those were in his first 10 years. He made the dance six of his first seven seasons, which is pretty impressive.

March of: 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1974 and 1984. Please list the other 2?

edited: let's split the difference, I forgot about 1985, so that's 8 and he made it 5 of his first 6 season not 6 out of 7.

[Flyer'95]

Also, it's worth noting a couple things. The tourney went to 64 teams in 1985. So for the first 20 some odd years of his career, the tournament only accepted 32 teams.

His last five years or so they accepted 64. He made the tourney in 1985 for the last time.

He did admittedly have a lull in the 70s when it came to tourney success, and given today's standards he probably would have been fired for similar results much sooner. But his first 7 years or so were the high water mark for dayton basketball, and still are.

There's also the issue of how many games/cupcakes teams play now, how many D1 teams there are, and the issue of conference affiliation. The administration didn't do anybody any favors when they decided to stay independent.

It's a whole different world in many respects.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I always appreciate a good post by Smitty where he totally loses sight of reality. Smitty: re-read your post with the following assumption in mind: AG and the existing assistants HAVE THE SAME VISION. So no one is lacking an alignment with that vision. Jumpseat Guy.

100% disagree...we have no idea what AG's vision is. So far I have heard AG talk about teaching NBA skills and also talk about attacking on offense. But, I have not really followed closely what he has said so far. I prefer to wait to see what happens on the court next year.

And why did Xavier and Butler hire a bunch of jumpseat guys then that have all lead them to new, great success?

I pretty much agree with everything that Smitty has posted on the topic of the coaching change.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[The Fly]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 March of: 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1974 and 1984. Please list the other 2? edited: let's split the difference, I forgot about 1985, so that's 8 and he made it 5 of his first 6 season not 6 out of 7.

Yes, 1985. I'd thought '71, too, but that was a miss, so eight total.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Medford You would quite literally be the only person debating that Jirsa should have been choosen over BG at this point. One is a head coach in the AAC, the other is an assitant at Radford. You are correct, Indiana will never schedule UD while Archie is head coach there, but the were never going to schedule UD when Knight, Sampson, Crean or anyone else was coach there. You seem to be grasping for straws at this point when the truth is simple, no one truely knows whom the best choice for head coach is, and we won't know for several seasons. The fact that none of the assistants have seriously been in discussions to be head coaches anywhere else speaks some volume about the confidence the D1 college basketball world has in them to lead a program. As Bob Seger once sang, "its time to turn the page".

Again, Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either, that is an irrelevant point IMO. He was the best coach over the past 30 years at UD.

Let me ask you this: knowing what they now know, do you think UD and GT, if they had it to do all over again, would hire BG?

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by ud2 Again, Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either, that is an irrelevant point IMO. He was the best coach over the past 30 years at UD. Let me ask you this: knowing what they now know, do you think UD and GT, if they had it to do all over again, would hire BG?

Heh UD2 I like your clear vision on that 20-20 Hindsight. Keep up the good work!

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 Also, it's worth noting a couple things. The tourney went to 64 teams in 1985. So for the first 20 some odd years of his career, the tournament only accepted 32 teams. His last five years or so they accepted 64. He made the tourney in 1985 for the last time. He did admittedly have a lull in the 70s when it came to tourney success, and given today's standards he probably would have been fired for similar results much sooner. But his first 7 years or so were the high water mark for dayton basketball, and still are. There's also the issue of how many games/cupcakes teams play now, how many D1 teams there are, and the issue of conference affiliation. The administration didn't do anybody any favors when they decided to stay independent. It's a whole different world in many respects.

Absolutely a different world back then. But just the fact they only invited 32 teams didn't necessarily make it a more difficult task for DD. Dayton was often in the top 10 or 20 and was looked at as one of the elite basketball programs during the Blackburn years. So he taking over Dayton was not comparable to Miller taking over Dayton. It's more comparable to AM taking over Indiana.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 Heh UD2 I like your clear vision on that 20-20 Hindsight. Keep up the good work!

Look, he is trying to say that BG was clearly better than Jirsa. I would have liked to have seen how good BG would have done in only 2 years at Georgia and then 4 years at Marshall. Neither school is a basketball power. GT and UD are both much better jobs. It is not at all a fair comparison.

And he did get 2 NIT's at Georgia, which is more than BG did at GT.

And pretty much nobody has done well at Marshall, not even Billy Donovan.

[Medford]

Originally Posted by ud2 Again, Archie was not mentioned for any jobs either, that is an irrelevant point IMO. He was the best coach over the past 30 years at UD. Let me ask you this: knowing what they now know, do you think UD and GT, if they had it to do all over again, would hire BG?

Over Jirsa, absolutely, every day, and twice on Sundays. Its been too long that I can't recall who else was a serious candidate.

You claim to not know what Grant's vision is, and that is fair, but how the freak do you know what any of the assistant's visions are? Just because they worked under Archie doesn't mean that they wouldn't do thing differently, or perhaps couldn't do things the same. If it was just as easy as "do what they did" then the coaching trees of Izzo, Coach K, Calhoun, etc... wouldn't be littered with more failures than successes. Iroinically, the coaching tree of Rick Pitino, whom Anthony Grant would be a branch on probably has had the most success (though note that both JOB & Jirsa on on his "tree" as well). Most people have a slightly different version of whatever their line of work is than their boss. Sometimes their boss will listen to them, sometimes they'll dismiss their ideas, or most likely they'll work with the ones they agree on and pass on the ideas that they question. Coaching is no different, no two coaches will think, act, comprehend, teach or recruit the same no matter how long they've worked together.

Archie was 32 when he was hired, extremely young in the profession, Ostrom is in his 40s, as is Kuwik. I'm not saying either one can't nor won't be a fine head coach some day, I'm simply saying that nobody knows, nor will anybody know that they're a better fit for the UD job TODAY. I put my faith in Neil, because frankly, as a fan, it is all I can do. I would have put my faith in him no matter who he hired, because frankly, as a fan, I have no input or influence.

You keep implying that promoting one of the assistants would have been a slam dunk, I'm simply saying maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, who the frik could actually know. You are far too worried about what Archie thinks of UD at this point. I'm sure Archie still values his time on campus and the help and trust that the athletic department gave him during his tenure here, but I'd be willing to bet he's given far less time thinking about UD's future over the last 3 weeks than you've been thinking about what Archie thinks about UD's future.

[Medford]

Originally Posted by ud2 Look, he is trying to say that BG was clearly better than Jirsa. I would have liked to have seen how good BG would have done in only 2 years at Georgia and then 4 years at Marshall. Neither school is a basketball power. GT and UD are both much better jobs. It is not at all a fair comparison. And he did get 2 NIT's at Georgia, which is more than BG did at GT. And pretty much nobody has done well at Marshall, not even Billy Donovan.

seriously, what the hell is your love affair with Jirsa? He finished above .500 his first season at Georgia, never finished above .500 in his 4 seasons at Marshall nor his second season at Georgia.

Gregory finished above .500 7 out of 8 seasons at UD (only time he fell below that very low bench mark at UD was his 2nd season when he played a bunch of frosh and the little talent that Purnell left him beyond his senior class), then above .500 2 of his 5 seasons at GTech, including his last one. That is a horribly low bench mark, yet Jirsa failed just about every season.

Donovan took over a team that won 9 games prior to his landing the gig and went 35-20 over his only 2 years at Marshall as a 28-30 year old man.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[THirt]

Originally Posted by ud2 we have no idea what AG's vision is. I have not really followed closely what he has said so far.

I think these statements speak for themselves.
Posted via Mobile Device

[UD62]

Originally Posted by THirt I think these statements speak for themselves. Posted via Mobile Device

Agree,why you guys engage with ud2 is beyond me,

[DallasFlyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 Look, he is trying to say that BG was clearly better than Jirsa.

Look, Ron Jirsa probably belongs in the coaching hall of fame. I mean check out his last three jobs:

Recruiting coordinator for Bethel University in Arden Hills, Minn
Assistant coach, Tennessee Technological University
Assistant coach, Radford

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 100% disagree...we have no idea what AG's vision is. So far I have heard AG talk about teaching NBA skills and also talk about attacking on offense. But, I have not really followed closely what he has said so far. I prefer to wait to see what happens on the court next year. And why did Xavier and Butler hire a bunch of jumpseat guys then that have all lead them to new, great success? I pretty much agree with everything that Smitty has posted on the topic of the coaching change.

You and Smitty have a predetermined outcome with 0 facts to back it up. I have said already that sometimes you might look around and think Jumpseat Guy is actually your best choice. Maybe the pilot had the fish for dinner, for example. I am saying in no uncertain terms that sometimes you decide Jumpseat Guy is your best option, and that's really all you can ask for.

But you have zero, nada, nil on the facts front to support that the assistants were better choices. Just because they were sitting in the jumpseat does not make them the best choice. Maybe there's a Gulf War vet sitting in 1st Class who could do this in his sleep.

Again: in your interviews with the current assistants, what did they way was their vision? What did they say they wanted to change about the way AM did things? What did they list as their strengths and weaknesses? You don't know--then what the he!! are you basing your conclusion upon? Nothing. For all you know the assistants said we need to stop making these kids attend class so much.

And do you know what I'm basing my decision upon for AG? Barely anything more. A couple of semi-successful landings. But, the guys / gals who actually sat in the interviews do have something to base it on, and they decided on AG.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 4 out of 6 seasons is a misleading stat. Is it really fair to not give a coach his first 2 years to get his own team on the court?

Oh my gawd how does your tongue not jump out of your mouth and run down the hall to hide?? You just got done saying you would happily / easily fire the assistant after 2 years if he wasn't successful. Which of course is patently false, which you have just proven.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Chris R]

I dont normally do this, but I want to publicly apologize for mentioning Ron Jirsa.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 You better reread my posts. I'm making no predictions and have admitted that AG might have been the right hire. I was not debating AG vs KK or Tom Ostrom. I was debating in general that hiring an existing assistant with the current program is not necessarily more risky than bringing in a former coach from outside. Do me a favor, if you can't read and get the gist of my posts, don't respond to them. If you don't realize that there's a difference between a current assistant continuing the system in place and an outsider bringing in his own system, you were a very poor job fit for hiring people. In two years it's easier to determine if the continuation of the system is working than it is to determine if a change in the system is. But what should I expect of someone who obviously never takes the blame for his own mistakes. Trying to convince posters on a message board that your bad choices in hiring were the correct choices speaks volumes.

How can you guys keep saying the assistants would keep the current system? Allen Griffin was a Syracuse guy, maybe he would have decided to run the Syracuse zone. This would mean recruiting totally different style of players than we currently have. Ostrum coached under Billy Donovan and John Pelphrey most of his career. How do we know he wouldn't switch to run a system like Grant/Donovan/Pelphrey would run? Kuwik probably would be the most likely to run the same system being that he worked under Matta as well, but there is no guarantee. We do not know how many times these coaches are sitting back thinking if they were in charge they would do it differently. My old boss has been in this field for 30 years, I learned a great deal from him, but now that I have his job, I definitely don't do things the same way. I have made many changes that work better for me. We can't assume they would run program exactly like Archie.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 We can't assume they would run program exactly like Archie.

Xavier has had success promoting from within. But Gillen to Prosser to Matta to Miller to Mack there have been changes in what they run.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 How can you guys keep saying the assistants would keep the current system? Allen Griffin was a Syracuse guy, maybe he would have decided to run the Syracuse zone. This would mean recruiting totally different style of players than we currently have. Ostrum coached under Billy Donovan and John Pelphrey most of his career. How do we know he wouldn't switch to run a system like Grant/Donovan/Pelphrey would run? Kuwik probably would be the most likely to run the same system being that he worked under Matta as well, but there is no guarantee. We do not know how many times these coaches are sitting back thinking if they were in charge they would do it differently. My old boss has been in this field for 30 years, I learned a great deal from him, but now that I have his job, I definitely don't do things the same way. I have made many changes that work better for me. We can't assume they would run program exactly like Archie.

Absolutely. And that's the kind of thing that comes out in an interview. And maybe that's what happened with our assistants.

Again, I never said that AG was the wrong choice. I just said that hiring an assistant has it's advantages and can present less risks to a program that has a coaching change while on a streak of successes. That was under the assumption that the assistant wants to continue with the same system. If the assistant says he'd bring in an outside system, well that all goes out the window and it's a bigger risk than an established coach.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by UDDoug Xavier has had success promoting from within. But Gillen to Prosser to Matta to Miller to Mack there have been changes in what they run.

Serious question, were those changes immediate or gradual? Because some changes are expected, but you would expect them to be gradual when promoting from within. Now, if the cupboard is bare when they take over, a quicker, more drastic change might be in order.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by ud2 Disagree, I bet that Archie is not at all pleased that one of his assistants did not get the UD job. I think it is a slap in the face to Archie honestly. I highly doubt that you ever see Indiana schedule UD as long as Archie is there.

Who cares what Archie thinks? And we have never played Indiana, so why would they start playing us now?

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer Look, Ron Jirsa probably belongs in the coaching hall of fame.

But is he better than Ray Harper?

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Do me a favor, if you can't read and get the gist of my posts, don't respond to them. If you don't realize that there's a difference between a current assistant continuing the system in place and an outsider bringing in his own system, you were a very poor job fit for hiring people.

Your snarky attitude as evidenced by this post (and many others) is why some posters reply to you in the manner they do. Keep up the good work.

[CE80]

I don't understand how anyone can say that because the assistants knew the system they could run the system. Even if they did not make any changes, they would not necessarily be good at running it. There is a big difference in having the knowledge to do so and actual execution.

[FLYER5]

Originally Posted by longtimefan But is he better than Ray Harper?

Heaven's Gate has a side-door for Ray

[UncleFester]

If Dayton should have promoted from within, why aren't these assistants being considered for other head coaching gigs? If now is their time, they should be accepting those offers, if they even exist. They are leaving to accept other assistant coaching positions. Good luck to all of them.
Posted via Mobile Device

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Serious question, were those changes immediate or gradual? Because some changes are expected, but you would expect them to be gradual when promoting from within. Now, if the cupboard is bare when they take over, a quicker, more drastic change might be in order.

Miller pretty much played a pack line man defense. Mack not so much. Mack went to more zone.

Every coach has there own philosophy. A new coach even if an assistant is likely to make some changes depending on what they see in personnel.
Posted via Mobile Device

[FLYER5]

Ray Harper IS homeland defense

[FLYER5]

Ray Harper threw a curveball once. It's still going

[FlyingArrow]

Archie probably does care a little bit about the next UD coach. Would have preferred to see one of his own guys because if his assistants succeed it enchance his own legacy. But I doubt he cares much. Plus, if he wanted to hire any of them at IU, then he's probably glad that those particular coaches weren't hired as UD head coach.

On the other hand, by not having a clear #1 assistant, Archie never gave any of them a head start toward being the next head coach after he left. If he cared that much, he would have had a clear #1.

I think the fact that none of them have been mentioned as potential head coaches elsewhere indicates that they may not be ready (or possibly not interested).

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Flyer'95 Also, it's worth noting a couple things. The tourney went to 64 teams in 1985. So for the first 20 some odd years of his career, the tournament only accepted 32 teams.

I believe there were some years where the tourney went to 40, 48 and 53 teams before finally getting to 64 and now 68 teams.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I believe there were some years where the tourney went to 40, 48 and 53 teams before finally getting to 64 and now 68 teams.

There were a number of years where the 2 best teams in the country were in the same conference and only 1 of them got in. Imagine if every year ONLY Duke or UNC got into the tournament.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by Gazoo There were a number of years where the 2 best teams in the country were in the same conference and only 1 of them got in. Imagine if every year ONLY Duke or UNC got into the tournament.

1973. NC State (David Thompson, Monty Towe, Rick Burleson) and Maryland (Len Elmore, Tom McMillan, John Lucas) played in the ACC championship game. UCLA, NC State and Maryland were ranked 1 through 3 in some order. One of those three were not making the NCAAT. Today each would be 1 seeds. Game went OT, and NC State prevailed. Went on to win the NC game. Maryland was in the NIT.

Getting old - may have a few facts a tad messed up, but generally close.