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  #1  
Old 05-15-2015, 02:11 PM
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NCAA reduces shot clock from 35 seconds, to 30

https://mobile.twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/599270943987380224

"We are getting a 30 second clock!!" - Seth Davis
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2015, 04:02 PM
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Bad news, but I had no vote.
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  #3  
Old 05-15-2015, 04:35 PM
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This does not play to our offensive strength but certainly will help on defense.
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Old 05-15-2015, 05:20 PM
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I'm not a fan of artificially trying to speed up the game. Why don't we take it to 10 seconds and just have an "AND1" exhibition?
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  #5  
Old 05-15-2015, 05:35 PM
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coaches will have to focus more on teaching offense and running it with more pace instead of teaching how to grab and hold.
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2015, 08:01 PM
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So much for the weave. Don't the ladies already play with a 30 second clock?
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Don't the ladies already play with a 30 second clock?
yes they do
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
This does not play to our offensive strength but certainly will help on defense.
This certainly helps teams that full court press well and that's not us. so it hurts us on defense when compared to a lot of our opponents defenses. The Flyers were great getting the ball across mid-court but they seemed to take the full 10 seconds or close to it to do it. So we don't full court press our opponents are going to have a few more seconds to find a shot than we are. That was probably the case last season too, but having 25 seconds to another team's 28 is not as bad as having 20 compared to the other team's 23.

we have a great coach and he'll probably adjust by putting together a better full court press. also, maybe we took more time to get the ball across the line by design to shorten the game as much as possible due to being shorthanded and can speed things up offensively next season due to having depth.

Last edited by Smitty10; 05-15-2015 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:29 PM
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this is about executing your offense with pace and not wasting seconds.

Will there be teams that use a token press and then drop into a zone? Sure but if the coach is any good it won't be a major problem.
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:33 PM
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I hear they are also making some changes on time outs in order to speed up the down time... thank God. Others are: the arc goes from 3' to 4', no more 5 second call on a dribbler (holding the ball stays), and the 10 second count in the back court will not start over if you call a time out.

Watch this video for some detail.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ege-basketball

Oh, and a technical can be called on a player faking a foul, probably flagrant.
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Old 05-15-2015, 10:14 PM
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Doubt this will have a huge impact...30 seconds is enough time to run your offense...I'm neutral on whether I like this change.

Last edited by ud2; 05-19-2015 at 12:03 AM..
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2015, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Oh, and a technical can be called on a player faking a foul, probably flagrant.
Make sure Scoochie hears about this one, or takes some acting classes over the summer.
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2015, 07:48 AM
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don't like it
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Old 05-16-2015, 09:30 AM
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don't like the 30 sec clock. here we come NBA chuckers!

haven't heard all the other rule changes. they sound good on first hearing.

I think time outs is a huge thing to cut back or control. Also 5 second rules. Keep the game moving, but not forcing the offense

Last edited by Flyer 86; 05-17-2015 at 10:31 PM..
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:52 AM
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The biggest thing they could have done, IMHO, was re-emphasize the foul rules against grabbing, bumping, hand checking, etc., like they started to do at the beginning of the 2013-14 season. If you shorten the shot clock without giving the offense the ability to get separation from the defenders, then all you've done is ensure that there will be more of the same type of play that's currently dragging down the college game.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:56 AM
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What will the offensive strategy look like in the college game? Check the Cavaliers. You give it to Lebron; he holds it and dribbles it until the clock is ready to expire; then he shoots a 25 foot jump shot or wildly enters the paint hoping to get fouled prior to the clock expiration. I hope the college game doesn't come to that.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:02 AM
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I think you're all over-reacting. 30 seconds is plenty of time to run 3 offensive sets. Unless you're a patient, walk-the-ball-up-the-court team, this will have little to no affect on the game. And we aren't.
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  #18  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:05 AM
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I don't think it's a big deal either way. It seems that many teams run and chuck early in the clock trying to push the pace. Others take 20 seconds to start into their offense. Now they'll simply take 15 seconds to get into their offense. Those who struggle with 35 seconds probably will struggle with 30, or some day 25. Coaching, court savvy, watching the clock are ingredients the better teams will demonstrate.

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  #19  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:50 AM
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College basketball has a problem with too many low scoring games. This is the attempt to improves that situation.

Archie stated that 30 seconds is not the way to increase scoring in college basketball. He favored other rule changes related to defense, contact, charge etc... instead.

I agree with him.
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  #20  
Old 05-16-2015, 11:07 AM
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When games end 105-102 will the NCAA be happy?

Early days of the ABA here we come.

This is an organization that can't do anything about "one and done" which is making an absolute mockery of the college game, but it can move like lightning on an issue like this.

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  #21  
Old 05-16-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I think you're all over-reacting. 30 seconds is plenty of time to run 3 offensive sets. Unless you're a patient, walk-the-ball-up-the-court team, this will have little to no affect on the game. And we aren't.
30 seconds is fine. The issue for me is that in a couple years, when the game hasn't changed and scoring still isn't up, the "solution" will be to change it to 24 seconds to match the NBA.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2015, 12:26 AM
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That solution, changing to mirror the NBA rules, is exactly what the women's basketball is contemplating. They hope to change to quarters to match the WNBA.

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-ba...uarters-halves
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Old 05-17-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
That solution, changing to mirror the NBA rules, is exactly what the women's basketball is contemplating. They hope to change to quarters to match the WNBA.

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-ba...uarters-halves
That is a great change. Mainly because they are reducing the media timeouts by four.
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Old 05-17-2015, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
College basketball has a problem with too many low scoring games.
I would much rather watch a low scoring game that is played well than a high scoring game where no defense is played.

I enjoy watching a slow-it-down team meet a run-and-gun team and see which team can force it's preferred tempo on the other. I think this rule will just make college basketball more vanilla. It will reduce the possible employable strategies a bit.

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  #25  
Old 05-17-2015, 12:46 PM
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I think you can have well-played games at either end of the scoring spectrum. A bad coach can screw up any parameters that are set in good faith to preclude him from doing it.

I'd rather watch a good high-scoring game than a good low-scoring game. And that's what the players want also. So that is a headwind coaches have to consider, as well as the rule-makers.

Just can't "legislate" good basketball. IMO this new shot clock won't do much to change things.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:29 PM
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It should slightly favor the more talented and/or efficient teams since it will increase the number of possessions per game.
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:46 PM
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It'll actually favor the team that's losing in the final minutes.
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Old 05-18-2015, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
What will the offensive strategy look like in the college game? Check the Cavaliers. You give it to Lebron; he holds it and dribbles it until the clock is ready to expire; then he shoots a 25 foot jump shot or wildly enters the paint hoping to get fouled prior to the clock expiration. I hope the college game doesn't come to that.
My sentiments exactly. Gone are the days of probing a defense until you find a good shot. Here are the days of the "4th and 1" offense. You pick a play, give it to your guy, and d**n the torpedoes.

I don't think the 5 second difference will lead us all the way there, but the course is set. The next stop is shortening the clock further.

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I think you're all over-reacting. 30 seconds is plenty of time to run 3 offensive sets. Unless you're a patient, walk-the-ball-up-the-court team, this will have little to no affect on the game. And we aren't.
I wonder how much free throw shooting will go up next year? There will be more offensive possessions, which means more fouls, which means more free throws, which means more of the excitement we all like: watching guys stand still.
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Old 05-18-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
and the 10 second count in the back court will not start over if you call a time out.
Is that true?? That's actually a big change. Expect to see some really ugly basketball plays any time WVU plays.

And the "no 5 second rule" should also make for great viewing. More of what we like: 1 guy with the ball while 4 guys stand still.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I think you can have well-played games at either end of the scoring spectrum. A bad coach can screw up any parameters that are set in good faith to preclude him from doing it.

I'd rather watch a good high-scoring game than a good low-scoring game. And that's what the players want also. So that is a headwind coaches have to consider, as well as the rule-makers.

Just can't "legislate" good basketball. IMO this new shot clock won't do much to change things.
The problem is that there are too many games in which a low scoring team plays another low scoring team. Too many A10 games have teams scoring in the 40s and 50s with low shooting percentage. A 1-0 game is fun for purists and pitchers of baseball, but boring for almost everyone else.

Part of what makes the game frustrating for the non purists is the lack of clarity in defensive calls. Officials in college switch from let em play to let's get control back in the middle in too many games. One official calls a charge and the other crew member would have called a block on the same play. The inconsistency accounts for players playing confused at times as well.

The college game is a long, long way from games in which both teams break 90 and 100 consistently in the same game.

Again, I stick with Archie on this point. I respect his opinion about the rules of defensive play. BTW. If you make defensive calls more consistent, more players will learn how to play legitimate defense.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:40 AM
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the problem with consistency of officiating is that every Saturday there are around 130 games and which requires a ton of officials and the top conferences generally get the best of the bunch and the rest of the leagues get what is left.

Officiating is like a box of chocolates ...
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:54 AM
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Step outside of your Flyer fan mindset and view the game as a whole. There are a ton of college basketball games on TV, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3, Fox, CBSsports, CBS, NBC sports, etc, etc, etc... There is often little incentive, outside of my how a game potential impacts the Flyers, to watch much of what is shown on TV today. I'm not even talking high scoring vs low scoring. Far too often, the cause of low scoring games are a function of offenses that stand around and dribble on the perimeter with little to no attempt of attacking the lane to create shots. Its not great defense, its teams that don't understand the fundamentals of team basketball and the goal should be to use the 35 seconds to get a good shot, no matter if that comes in the first 10 seconds or the last 10 seconds, the first "good" shot should always be attempted.

As it affects the Flyers, I think this is good for the Flyers under their current makeup. Archie's teams don't tend to stand around and wait for something to present itself, they move the ball quickly and sharply either thru dribble penetration or ball reversals to create open shots. How often has the shot clock been an issue over the last handful of seasons? The game is suppose to be entertaining. Entertaining is rarely watching a team pass around the perimeter for 20 seconds before making an actual attempt at creating a shot. I believe the 30 second shot clock is a step in the right direction in that it will force teams to get into their actual offense, at a minimum, 5 seconds sooner than we've seen previously, meaning we'll a handful more possessions a game we see actual basketball being played, not just a glorified 20 seconds of "keep away".

I believe I saw where they are going to experiment with 6 fouls per player in the postseason next year (I'll assume NIT, CBI, etc.. not the NCAA) which is fine for an experiment there, but I hope they don't go that route. 5 is a good number for the college game, encourage players to move their feet and not just bump and grind the opponent.

I like the time out changes that I've read about, far too many are saved for the last 2 minutes, and it really drags out a game near the end. That isn't a big deal if its "your team" that you are watching, but how many times have we seen the first 10 minutes of a game not show up because we have watch the last 2 minutes of a game finish up prior.
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:13 PM
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ee-throw-rules

If this is all about entertainment what about this idea?

Eliminate the rule that you can foul out. It's like a pickup game. Or give people 7 or 8 fouls to keep them honest. Put the best 5 on the floor as long as they can keep their breath. And: eliminate FT's. If you get fouled shooting you get 2 points whether or not the shot goes in. There's no incentive to grab / hack a guy to stop the shot since he'll already get his guaranteed 2 points. Let the defender go and try for the steal / block.

Collect non-shooting fouls and when you're in the bonus they result in points as well.

Few people like watching a FT parade. And since "beat that sucka down if he fouls me again" is not an option for a non-playground game, then just award the points.
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Flyer View Post
Make sure Scoochie hears about this one, or takes some acting classes over the summer.
In case you weren't sure what I was referencing:

https://vine.co/v/OYig5DbraV3
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
If you get fouled shooting you get 2 points whether or not the shot goes in.
I somewhat like this idea. It is getting closer to soccer's mission to only interrupt play when absolutely necessary. It is part of the reason why offside changed so that it is only called if the player gets an advantage from his/her offside position. I know soccer is still a red-headed step-child in this country, but one of the things I hear from new fans of the Premier League is that they love how they know going into watching a league game that it is going to take about 2 hours of their life.

This foul change would allow the game of basketball to flow so much better.
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Flyer View Post
In case you weren't sure what I was referencing:

https://vine.co/v/OYig5DbraV3
Is it supposed to be a video? I only get a photo.
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Old 05-18-2015, 02:33 PM
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you have to click on the photo for the video to start. However, its poor quality, the guy from providence definitely stuck out his elbow (at least a bit), appears to be some "acting" on scoochie's part, but could have just been his natural reaction to a guy's elbow coming up to his upper body. Hard to tell for sure from that 1 angle. I don't recall if the guy got a call for an offensive foul or not on that play.
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Old 05-18-2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Flyer View Post
I somewhat like this idea. It is getting closer to soccer's mission to only interrupt play when absolutely necessary. It is part of the reason why offside changed so that it is only called if the player gets an advantage from his/her offside position. I know soccer is still a red-headed step-child in this country, but one of the things I hear from new fans of the Premier League is that they love how they know going into watching a league game that it is going to take about 2 hours of their life.

This foul change would allow the game of basketball to flow so much better.
You have got to be kidding? You would like to get rid of the Free-throw in college basketball? Probably the most exiting part of a close game.

I really enjoy the game of College Basketball. I love it the way it was last year and years previously. Because a game has pause in action is no reason to change it. The final minute of the game clock is more exiting than the other 39 minutes yet everyone acts like all the breaks in action cause them to fall asleep.

It's where strategy comes in and strategy is a part of any game. Any of you complaining about it need to watch more baseball games when a manager replaces a relief pitcher after every batter while the catcher has a separate conference with each of them. Or better yet, an NFL football game where there's probably 12 minutes of action the whole game and you get a boatload of commercials after every score and then after every kickoff afterward. And I mean, all those huddles, maybe they should make take away the huddle and force teams to go no-huddle all game long. And why should they have rounds in boxing, why should you have fill in your time between rounds? Why not just one very long round?
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Old 05-18-2015, 07:19 PM
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If they want to increase scoring they should use 2 balls.
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Old 05-18-2015, 07:30 PM
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Or more rims and nets. some clustered together and others at different parts of the floor.
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Old 05-18-2015, 08:12 PM
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At different heights so everyone can dunk.
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Old 05-19-2015, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
You have got to be kidding? You would like to get rid of the Free-throw in college basketball? Probably the most exiting part of a close game.
There is no game where I've ever said "wow that game was boring, but how about the free throw shooting!! WOW! EXCITING!"

Watch a highlight reel of the greatest basketball games in history. 99% of the highlight reel will be something other than a guy standing at the FT line. Yet you will contend this is the most exciting part of the game? Gonna have to disagree with you there.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Because a game has pause in action is no reason to change it. The final minute of the game clock is more exiting than the other 39 minutes yet everyone acts like all the breaks in action cause them to fall asleep.
I don't think that's the point being made, I think the point being made is that most people find the beautiful execution of a play ending in a basket to be more exciting than a guy getting held and grabbed 4 times while trying to break through a screen which the officials eventually whistle and send a guy to the line for FT's.

Remember Christian Laettner's game winning FT's against Kentucky?
Tyus Edney's game winning FTs for UCLA?
Bryce Drew's game winning FTs for Valpo?
Seeing tOSU's hopes dashed by UD's FTs with 1 second left on the clock?

No. None of those are iconic, and very, very few FTs are iconic. Guys making plays are iconic and exciting. So I want to see rules that create more of that and less of guys grabbing / holding.

It's just one idea to create more of the good stuff and less of the not-as-good stuff.
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Old 05-19-2015, 11:24 AM
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Old 05-19-2015, 11:34 AM
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I read a little on this, these rule changes are more extensive than I thought, media timeouts are being changed, one less timeout in the second half, coaches can't call time during live action, etc.

Most d1 coaches support this change.


-The NCAA introduced a 45-second shot clock for the men's game in the 1985–86 season, reducing it to 35 seconds in the 1993–94 season.


-ESPN poll of d1 coaches: 59% want a 30 second shot clock, 30% want 35 seconds, 10% 24 seconds, 1% want 28 or 45 seconds.


-Division I men’s basketball teams approached a near-historic low in averaging 67.6 points per game during 2014-15.


» Expanding the current restricted area from 3 feet to 4 in an attempt to reduce the amount of collisions at the basket.


» Removing one team timeout from the second half and strictly focusing on resuming play more quickly after a timeout.


» Adjusting the media timeout procedures to allow a timeout called within 30 seconds of or at any time after the scheduled media timeout to become the media timeout.


» Removing the ability for a coach to call time when the ball is live.







http://www.omaha.com/creighton/to-cr....html?mode=jqm



http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ond-shot-clock

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Old 05-19-2015, 12:37 PM
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This was talked about in another thread, but the shot clock is not what's wrong. It's not even a factor in what's actually wrong.

Some basic math and quantitative analysis that the NCAA clearly has not done.

In the 1970s and up through the early 1980s, there was no shot clock, and the average number of possessions per game was in the 70s.

When the 45 second shot clock was implemented, that average stayed pretty much the same, but started to go down.

In the past few years of the 35 second shot clock, the average is actually in the 60s. Now, during the NIT and other postseason tournaments, they used a 30 shot clock, and the number of possessions did go up, but only by 2. So, the pace of the game did increase, but by such a slight margin that it is not significant.

So, from only looking at this quantitative data, shortening the shot clock actually SLOWS DOWN the game.

Now, when you look at it more practically, you realize there are reasons other than the shot clock that the game has slowed and that the scoring has gone down. But, the most obvious conclusion that can be drawn is that the shot clock is NOT the problem. It never was.

The problem, pure and simple and in my mind without question, is the way the game is officiated. Games are a combination between rugby scrums and rock fights. There is no offense because the style of play doesn't allow for them to develop, and the reason it isn't allowed to develop is because of the officiating. The shot clock is not a factor. Yet, what is really wrong has not changed and has not been addressed. Until the actual problem is addressed, the game will not change and will not improve. Simple as that. This is a non issue that will do almost nothing to make the game better, and could arguably end up making it worse.

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Old 05-19-2015, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
This was talked about in another thread, but the shot clock is not what's wrong. It's not even a factor in what's actually wrong.

Some basic math and quantitative analysis that the NCAA clearly has not done.

In the 1970s and up through the early 1980s, there was no shot clock, and the average number of possessions per game was in the 70s.

When the 45 second shot clock was implemented, that average stayed pretty much the same, but started to go down.

In the past few years of the 35 second shot clock, the average is actually in the 60s. Now, during the NIT and other postseason tournaments, they used a 30 shot clock, and the number of possessions did go up, but only by 2. So, the pace of the game did increase, but by such a slight margin that it is not significant.

So, from only looking at this quantitative data, shortening the shot clock actually SLOWS DOWN the game.

Now, when you look at it more practically, you realize there are reasons other than the shot clock that the game has slowed and that the scoring has gone down. But, the most obvious conclusion that can be drawn is that the shot clock is NOT the problem. It never was.

The problem, pure and simple and in my mind without question, is the way the game is officiated. Games are a combination between rugby scrums and rock fights. There is no offense because the style of play doesn't allow for them to develop, and the reason it isn't allowed to develop is because of the officiating. The shot clock is not a factor. Yet, what is really wrong has not changed and has not been addressed. Until the actual problem is addressed, the game will not change and will not improve. Simple as that. This is a non issue that will do almost nothing to make the game better, and could arguably end up making it worse.
There needs to be a "multi-thanks" button.

Let's see if I've got the theory right. They want to shorten the shot clock to 30 seconds in order to "increase possessions" which will theoretically improve the entertainment value of the game. Isn't that a little bit like saying "this breakfast tastes awful. Let's eat it for lunch and dinner too so we can improve the taste." More crap isn't going to transform it into a diamond, it's just going to make a larger pile of crap.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:20 PM
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Basketball rules are but a microcosm of business life

Process this: "Boss, we are losing $1,000/ widget shipped. But don't worry, we are going to make that up with volume".

Here's another mentality businesses have to deal with. "Boss, we are going to be fine, there are only two instances where inventories go up-- when sales go up, or when sales go down".

Stupidity isn't restricted to just basketball rules.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
There is no game where I've ever said "wow that game was boring, but how about the free throw shooting!! WOW! EXCITING!"

Watch a highlight reel of the greatest basketball games in history. 99% of the highlight reel will be something other than a guy standing at the FT line. Yet you will contend this is the most exciting part of the game? Gonna have to disagree with you there.

.
There's a difference between exciting situations and highlight reels. My point is there's nothing more exciting than a player, down by one, or two, shooting free throws with not enough time left on the clock for his team to get another possession. It's the Field Goal in football at the end of a game while team is down by 1 or 2 or 3. It's the pitcher with a full count and the bases loaded in a tie ninth inning game. Situations that are do or die. Situations that show what one player is made of.

No, you're correct, when watching highlights, I rather watch a running back break tackles while taking taking it all the way for 75 yards in a 50-0 blowout than I would watching a FG kicker nailing a 47 yarder to win the game. But while watching the game live, which is more exciting?

Or let me ask you this. How boring were those 3 FTs Pierre shot against Ohio State to give us a one point lead?

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Old 05-19-2015, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
There's a difference between exciting situations and highlight reels. My point is there's nothing more exciting than a player, down by one, or two, shooting free throws with not enough time left on the clock for his team to get another possession. It's the Field Goal in football at the end of a game while team is down by 1 or 2 or 3. It's the pitcher with a full count and the bases loaded in a tie ninth inning game. Situations that are do or die. Situations that show what one player is made of.

No, you're correct, when watching highlights, I rather watch a running back break tackles while taking taking it all the way for 75 yards in a 50-0 blowout than I would watching a FG kicker nailing a 47 yarder to win the game. But while watching the game live, which is more exciting?

Or let me ask you this. How boring were those 3 FTs Pierre shot against Ohio State to give us a one point lead?
I think we just have a different view of what's exciting.

For one thing, a field goal is one additional way of scoring, not a penalty for the defense breaking the rules. There's not a football equivalent to shooting FTs. Many football players have said "kickers aren't real football players" anyway. But to address your analogy, is it exciting? Yeah, but is it more exciting than watching a team run a "real" play to get a touchdown from the 20 yard line because they're down 4? No.

A pitcher with a 3-2 count in the 9th is really exciting to me. But, to match the analogy of the FT, the batter would have to walk down the 3rd base line and the umpire says "play ball" and the pitcher throws without a batter.

You see, that's what makes the FT less exciting. Not un-exciting, less exciting. Sure, it's an element to the game, and sure it shows (at times) what a player is made of. But watching DP make or miss the 3 pointer is even better.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I think we just have a different view of what's exciting.

For one thing, a field goal is one additional way of scoring, not a penalty for the defense breaking the rules. There's not a football equivalent to shooting FTs. Many football players have said "kickers aren't real football players" anyway. But to address your analogy, is it exciting? Yeah, but is it more exciting than watching a team run a "real" play to get a touchdown from the 20 yard line because they're down 4? No.

A pitcher with a 3-2 count in the 9th is really exciting to me. But, to match the analogy of the FT, the batter would have to walk down the 3rd base line and the umpire says "play ball" and the pitcher throws without a batter.

You see, that's what makes the FT less exciting. Not un-exciting, less exciting. Sure, it's an element to the game, and sure it shows (at times) what a player is made of. But watching DP make or miss the 3 pointer is even better.
But in your proposal, instead of watching DP make or miss the 3 pointer, he would've been handed 3 points for being fouled. Not nearly as exicting as watching him shoot 1st(get within 1), shoot 2nd(tie the game), shoot 3rd(give us the lead). I think you're confusing "action" vs. "excitement".
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:31 PM
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Jump shots?

Free throws??

or cheerleaders?!

Do I need to start a poll on what's more exciting or is the answer obvious??!

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Old 05-19-2015, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
But in your proposal, instead of watching DP make or miss the 3 pointer, he would've been handed 3 points for being fouled. Not nearly as exicting as watching him shoot 1st(get within 1), shoot 2nd(tie the game), shoot 3rd(give us the lead). I think you're confusing "action" vs. "excitement".
Not at all, my point is that the penalty is SO punitive that the foul never happens in the first place. That's the ultimate goal. I want to see the play happen not the foul.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Not at all, my point is that the penalty is SO punitive that the foul never happens in the first place. That's the ultimate goal. I want to see the play happen not the foul.
You do realize that throughout a game, most fouls are not committed intentionally right? The ones that are usually happen at point blank range or in the final minutes when a team is trying to play catch-up. And the one that Pierre got on his 3 point attempt against OSU was certainly not intentional, not close.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
You do realize that throughout a game, most fouls are not committed intentionally right? The ones that are usually happen at point blank range or in the final minutes when a team is trying to play catch-up. And the one that Pierre got on his 3 point attempt against OSU was certainly not intentional, not close.
Of course. By picking 1 foul out of 40 (?) that were committed during the game, you cannot argue that no rules change will ever impact the way defenses play defense or officials call the game.

At the margin, I would like to see defenses go back to playing defense without fouling (in the traditional sense of the word "foul"). One way to influence that (not unconditionally force it) is to increase the penalty for fouling to the point that it becomes much more desirable to avoid fouling instead of fouling being an inconvenience.

Think of it as 5 guys running around on the court playing defense the way they would if they all had 4 fouls. Today they play defense as if they can slip the ref a $20 and buy back into the game if they foul out.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Think of it as 5 guys running around on the court playing defense the way they would if they all had 4 fouls.
I read this and thought of how our team had to play defense at times this season with the short roster. There were plenty of times where our players could have contested a back door layup cut, but instead chose to let the player just finish the shot and not even take the chance around the foul being called. Everyone can surely think of plays like this from the past season.

At the time, I remember thinking that we were playing weak because we had to. But in hindsight, we were actually playing smart given the hand we were dealt. The problem is that hardly any other teams were dealt a similar hand. Most teams have warm bodies on the bench with fouls to give and coaches are willing to use those fouls in most situations.
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Old 05-20-2015, 10:13 AM
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This is great news and the change is long overdue. I was hoping they would go to 28 or 24, but this will still help. From a viewing standpoint, this will help reduce teams sitting on the ball with under 5 minutes left and a lead, at least a little bit. It will also speed up the game overall - they still need to revamp the every 4 minute timeouts and perhaps go to 4 quarters, but I'm probably getting greedy here.

For our Flyers specifically, I think we may have the best in-game coach in college basketball, so I expect him to adjust quickly and give us an advantage in the short-term.
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:19 AM
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It will change and help virtually nothing. At the end of the year everyone will once again be sitting around wondering why there is no offensive flow to the game, why the play is so poor, and why the ratings and attendance are continuing to decline.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Process this: "Boss, we are losing $1,000/ widget shipped. But don't worry, we are going to make that up with volume".

Here's another mentality businesses have to deal with. "Boss, we are going to be fine, there are only two instances where inventories go up-- when sales go up, or when sales go down".

Stupidity isn't restricted to just basketball rules.
Its an example of the "Peter Principal" at its finest. Those making the decisions are at their incompetent level....and stay there.

In our small company when a management positon opens we don't fill it immediately with a permanent promotion. We give a couple key people a chance to run it to see how they perform. If one shows they are still in the competent mode in their career they will get the job, otherwise we go outside for a replacement.
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Old 05-20-2015, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Flyer View Post
At the time, I remember thinking that we were playing weak because we had to. But in hindsight, we were actually playing smart given the hand we were dealt.
I can remember plenty of times when KP went for a block even though he had 3 fouls early in the 2nd half. You can go for a block, just be smart about it. Most teams go for blocks with the idea in mind that a clean block is great, but short of that they'll take hacking a guy into the 3rd row.

It's OK to challenge a shot in a smart way that makes it less likely that you'll get the block, but much less likely that you'll get the foul. It starts with being in position and not going for a block on every shot within 10 feet of you. Sometimes, you're just beat. Don't turn 1 mistake into 2.
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Old 05-20-2015, 03:58 PM
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@xubrew - What statistics are you going to use to draw conclusions at the end of the year? I would be very surprised if nothing at all changed, even if it's something bad like turnovers increased.

Do you believe the change is just too nominal? Or do you think nothing will change, even if the shot clock was 24 seconds?

So many games end with a team dribbling at half court forever, at least that will reduce that and increase the number of possessions down the stretch, no?
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:07 PM
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Specifically, I don't think the number of possessions, points scored, or shots taken will really change at all. The reason I feel this way is because of what was mentioned above. The shot clock has almost nothing to do with why scoring is down. In the pre-shot clock era, there were almost 16 more possessions per game than there are now. Even when they shortened the shot clock from 35 seconds to 30 seconds for the exhibition games and for the NIT this past year, the number of possessions and points scored really weren't significantly impacted.

The reason the game is declining is because of how it is officiated, and how physical the game is. Shortening the shot clock does nothing to address the real issue. It's like using a hammer to fix a loose screw. If the shot clock were the answer, then why was the game faster with higher scoring in the era before there even was a shot clock??

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Old 05-20-2015, 04:14 PM
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Fair enough, thanks for responding. I'm interested to see if anything changes over a large sample size though. I definitely don't think offensive efficiency will increase, but I would have guessed that number of possessions would increase by a few a game, which would increase scoring.

Like I said though, I wanted them to go to 24 or 28 seconds. This would force teams to play with more pace and wouldn't bail out so many awful possessions that are sometimes rewarded in college basketball.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by big jordan View Post
This is great news and the change is long overdue. I was hoping they would go to 28 or 24, but this will still help. From a viewing standpoint, this will help reduce teams sitting on the ball with under 5 minutes left and a lead, at least a little bit. It will also speed up the game overall - they still need to revamp the every 4 minute timeouts and perhaps go to 4 quarters, but I'm probably getting greedy here.

The Cavs sat on the ball for the last 8 minutes of last night's game. Shot clock doesn't change that.

I also don't see any value in a 4 quarters. Just another stoppage of play that breaks up the flow of the game.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:35 AM
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I don't see any point to quarters in football for the same reason. Just put 30 minutes on the clock and play.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:58 AM
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I agree, although it does make a little more sense in football. Wind can factor into football games, and quarters give each team an opportunity to benefit from the "good" direction in each half as opposed to being down 30 at half without the benefit of playing in the preferred direction.
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:01 AM
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The Cavs did indeed sit on the ball, but they were up 18 in the 4th. And it almost cost them actually, which is my point - there's only 24 seconds on the clock, so Atlanta had enough time/possessions to cut a 15 point lead to 4 in about 4 minutes of play. With a 35 second shot clock, a 10 point lead with 5 minutes is basically insurmountable.

I would recommend you guys watch some international basketball, if you don't already. The game moves quickly because you can't call timeouts after made baskets. I think they have the best rules in general, with getting rid of goaltending after the ball hits the rim.

But reasonable people can disagree - I just think it's good that the NCAA is doing something. I watch way too much basketball, and for me, men's college basketball has been by far the worst viewing experience.
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by big jordan View Post
But reasonable people can disagree - I just think it's good that the NCAA is doing something. I watch way too much basketball, and for me, men's college basketball has been by far the worst viewing experience.
How long have you been watching way too much basketball?? You gotta admit, the game sucks now compared to what it used to be, which is why I don't think the shot clock has anything to do with what's wrong.

I agree that men's college basketball is basically becoming a mud fight. The quality of play (and I don't just mean the skill level) is already bad and is getting worse. My whole point is that the shot clock doesn't really contribute much, if anything at all, as to why it's so bad. It was a better game with a longer shot clock.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I don't favor LENGTHENING the shot clock, much less getting rid of it. I merely bring that up to point out that shortening the shot clock cannot reasonably be the answer if the game was better in the past when the shot clock was longer.

What needs to change is that they need to officiate the game the way it was officiated in the 1980s and 1990s. Simple as that. The physicality, not the shot clock, has led to the decline of the game overall, and that's what needs to change. Shortening the shot clock does NOTHING to address what's actually wrong, which is why I find it so frustrating. I prefer it at 35, but am not that opposed to it going to 30. I'm actually okay with it going to 30. What I'm not okay with is that they've decided the shot clock is what's wrong, when in my mind it's not the problem at all.
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:53 AM
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I was having this discussion with someone else, but they really did almost fix officiating....

At the start of the 13-14 season, they were on the verge of fixing it. They really were. But, as is human nature, rather than focus on the benefits of the medicine, we all complained about how bad the medicine tasted, and they eventually relented.

Going into mid and late December last year, we really were starting to see the positive effects of this because more and more games were becoming great to watch. But, rather than stick with it, they backed down.

I hate foul parades, but it had to happen, and seemingly right when it was starting to work they reversed course. Had they just stuck with it for a little longer, I think the vast majority would have realized it was a good thing. Remember these threads??

I'm not bringing these up again as an "I told you so" in any way, shape, or form. Believe me, I know how frustrating those games were early in the year. But, I still think they were doing the right thing, and were VERY close to making the game better and returning it to the way it used to be. But, as is typical with the NCAA, they backed off.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24109

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23955
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:57 AM
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I think this whole lower quality of play thing is overblown...I think the game is fine and entertaining the way it is now...I wouldn't call 67.6 average points per game slow or boring, 67 points is a fairly high point total for a game IMO...I doubt that the 30 second shot clock is going to have much impact, if it does have a negative impact, raise it back up to 35.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:21 PM
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@xubrew I'm 27 so only clearly remember back to the early 2000s, the days of Shaq and Kobe and Duke at its second pinnacle. I have NBA League Pass and have watched parts of 2-3 games a night for the last 5 years, watch all the important college games on national tv (watched Kentucky 20 times, Duke-UNC twice for example), and go to Vegas to watch every game of the 1st 2 rounds of the NCAA tourney. I also catch international games online and on NBA TV. And I watch every Dayton Flyers game.

Is it possible that part of this is revisionist history as well? The college game will never be the days of Patrick Ewing staying for 3 years anymore, so the talent will not be there. But that's not an excuse to keep the game in the stone ages. People remember Michael Jordan as being the best days in the NBA, but watching 90s basketball is even worse than NCAA over the last 10 years. Pat Riley's Knicks and Heat teams were consistently scoring in the 70s and setting basketball back about 50 years, and the talent of the league isn't nearly what it is today. And perhaps more importantly, analytics, coaching, conditioning are light years ahead.

I just think it's time for college basketball to catch up. I do agree that officiating is a big issue as well, but when you hear guys like Jay Bilas talk, I feel like there is a general understanding that changes need to be made to the college game. I think these are decent first steps.

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Old 05-21-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I think this whole lower quality of play thing is overblown...I think the game is fine and entertaining the way it is now...I wouldn't call 67.6 average points per game slow or boring, 67 points is a fairly high point total for a game IMO...I doubt that the 30 second shot clock is going to have much impact, if it does have a negative impact, raise it back up to 35.
I would have agreed it was overblown until about three years ago when I started to watch the games from the 80s and 90s earlier era. I'm not just talking NCAA Tournament games where you would expect the play to be better. I'm talking about regular season games and conference games. If you put it side by side there is no comparison. The play was much better twenty years ago. The popularity of the game, including during the regular season, was much higher as well.

You can point to the quantitative stuff, but that isn't really it. A game isn't good or bad simply because of the score or the number of possessions. At best those are general indicators. If you actually watch the games, just about anyone would tell you that it was a much better product 20, 25 and even 30 years ago. I don't know how else to explain it, and I didn't feel this convinced until just about everything was up on youtube. But, I'm convinced now. The game used to be better.
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SeasonTicketFan (05-21-2015)
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:45 PM
CE80 CE80 is offline
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Chicken or Egg

I am with xubrew. The games are not officiated they way they once were and I think that plays into the hands of the less talented teams/players. That style feeds into more athlete, less basketball player. So now we will see those athletes try and do in 30 seconds what they couldn't do in 35. Will that push coaches to get better basketball players vs. athletes? Time will tell.
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SeasonTicketFan (05-22-2015)
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Old 05-21-2015, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by big jordan View Post
The Cavs did indeed sit on the ball, but they were up 18 in the 4th. And it almost cost them actually, which is my point - there's only 24 seconds on the clock, so Atlanta had enough time/possessions to cut a 15 point lead to 4 in about 4 minutes of play. With a 35 second shot clock, a 10 point lead with 5 minutes is basically insurmountable.

I would recommend you guys watch some international basketball, if you don't already. The game moves quickly because you can't call timeouts after made baskets. I think they have the best rules in general, with getting rid of goaltending after the ball hits the rim.

But reasonable people can disagree - I just think it's good that the NCAA is doing something. I watch way too much basketball, and for me, men's college basketball has been by far the worst viewing experience.
It happens all the time. Last night was not an anomaly.

I don't feel that the point you are making is an issue with the shot clock. If the other 35 minutes are being played at this shorter shot clock and creating more possessions throughout the game, what was a 10 point lead should be more than that. It’s all relative. Other non-shot clock factors also include that the clock stops after a made basket in the final two minutes, while only in the final minute in the NCAA. You can also advance the ball with a timeout in the NBA in the final two minutes. The rules are great for keeping a team in the game late, but it's also why I can rarely sit down and watch a full NBA game.
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