|
|
|
04-11-2017, 12:09 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,351
Thanks: 325
Thanked 622 Times in 327 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
When UD was in the GMW it had no athletics "program"......just a failing men's BB team and a good FB team. That's what Ted Kissell faced.
|
Some might call 13-41 overall and 1-23 in conference in two years of the Great Midwest failing. Others might call it...well, if they called it anything other than failing or abysmal or disastrous they must have been drunk.
|
04-11-2017, 12:13 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,782
Thanks: 796
Thanked 604 Times in 335 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Northwest, the key point is that how well teams perform depends on the quality of the players they recruit and the coaches they are able to hire. Our AD will tell you that both HS recruits and coaches are enormously impressed by the quality of facilities. Really good facilities are a reflection of a school's commitment to athletics....is the school really a big-time player, etc. And even with our superb facilities we have a tough time recruiting top players.
A10 schools with high-school-like facilities find it almost impossible to bring in really good players...and that affects the way the team performs, of course. Sure, once in a while a Fordham or LaSalle will get lucky and land a star that was overlooked. But consistently solid performance from such schools is just about impossible. Coaching candidates and recruits come in and see really sub-standard facilities in comparison to what they see elsewhere....and what do you suppose they think? FU and LU and the likes have to settle for personal that can't do better somewhere else. That's why facilities are so important.
|
I somewhat agree with you, but in the case of LaSalle and St. Bonney, they seem to overachieve given what they have in term of facilities, so they are doing something well. Fordham is really the only program that can't do any better than the top 150 RPI wise. It think it was just about 4 years ago that LaSalle received an at large, and until the last five years, out did us with our superior facilities and they have been in the same gym since the 50s. I think it really comes down to the staff that they hire, more than the gym, although the latter matters.
The more I read this discussion (although I would love to see UC and UConn on the schedule), a two division A10 based on performance (relegate/promotion) would do wonders for the teams that have the right mix going. As long as we continue being successful, would play home and away with the top 7 teams (seems like 5 to 7 teams in the A10 are in the Top 100 of the RPI (other metric) annually) and only spend a little time with the ailing or rebuilding programs (6 of 18 games). If you are in the lower tier, you could still get an large by doing well in the OOC and dominating the lower tier and winning the games that matter against the upper tier teams. I think this would really boost the A10 forward by making things more competitive, especially against the middle of the pack A10 teams.
|
04-11-2017, 12:28 PM
|
Lieutenant General
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,129
Thanks: 1,959
Thanked 2,464 Times in 1,288 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
When UD was in the GMW it had no athletics "program"......just a failing men's BB team and a good FB team. That's what Ted Kissell faced.
Ted is responsible for developing and implementing the first athletics strategy in UD's history and the outstanding athletics program we have today. UD has its legacy ADs like Baujan and Frericks....but no one's accomplishments rival those of Ted Kissell.
|
I would suggest that your description of our athletic program. or lack thereof lies at the feet of TF.
|
04-11-2017, 12:33 PM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,056
Thanks: 8,831
Thanked 8,589 Times in 3,714 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by DallasFlyer
Absolutely. Respect the job Mark Schmidt has done immensely. The A10 really lucked out when Boston College didn't hire Schmidt.
The A10 is fortunate to have some schools that have coaches who are better than maybe some of these programs "deserve" -- Schmidt, Martelli, McKillop, and now Dambrot. I think when you look at other basketball-driven leagues like the MVC or WCC vs the A10, it's the quality of coaches that have separated the A10 more than anything. It's easy to look at resources and amenities, but those really don't tell the story.
|
I have tons of respect for Schmidt too, and agree he has done a fantastic job with what he has to work with.
My comments about SBU have nothing to do with Schmidt, but the program and school as a whole. As has been pointed out, their above 500 record out of conference is due to the cupcakes they schedule and crappy RPI yearly. Yes, SBU is better than Fordham or LaSalle, congratulations, but still not who UD should associate with in conference affiliation if you want to look at improving long term.
Out of 351 NCAA schools, 68 make the big dance yearly, and another 32 make the NIT. I would never be happy if my team makes the NCAA 10% of the time, and the post season only 20% of the time. If the A-10 is to be a top 7 conference, that means you need to have nothing but programs who are consistently in the top 100 in the country at least 50% of the time, if not more.
|
|
|
|
St Bonaventure
|
|
SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
04-11-2017, 12:49 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,238
Thanks: 3,991
Thanked 4,603 Times in 2,849 Posts
|
|
True
Originally Posted by UD62
I would suggest that your description of our athletic program. or lack thereof lies at the feet of TF.
|
That's true. UD's definition of an athletics "program" was the men's BB team. TF was responsible for the Arena...incredibly farsighted. But that was pretty much it. Of course, the administration plays a role re what an AD is able to do. I have no idea re how much support TF got or asked for from the UD administration.
Bro Ray must have realized that UD had no athletics program when he hired Ted K....and Ted got the by-in and support he needed to create what we have today. It wasn't easy for Ted...took time....but he pulled it off.
In my opinion, Kissell has not received the recognition he deserves.
|
04-11-2017, 01:07 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer
One of the problems is, is that the A10 has too many teams that don't keep up the consistency and drop off for a few years before fielding another good run, and a lot of times only get to the NIT when they finally get it together.
|
That's the problem when you don't have the facilities and don't invest in the program. While resources don't guarantee success they sure do enhance the likelihood of achieving and maintaining it. Programs that lack resources tend not to be programs. They hit a good recruit or two, have a good coach or two, and when either or both move on they gravitate back to the bottom or to mediocrity.
Plus programs that are funded and have resources tend to have more fans, which can translate to larger TV audience and more money.
If I were putting together a new conference, which is likely what would happen if UD and VCU did something, I'd put far more emphasis on facilities, resources and commitment than I would won/loss records.
|
4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to UDDoug For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
04-11-2017, 02:14 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,176
Thanks: 1,661
Thanked 747 Times in 350 Posts
|
|
My bad. I re-opened this thread . . .
but where oh where is that emoji of the guy beating the dead horse???
|
Mad Props to Flyer69ers For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
04-11-2017, 02:49 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,782
Thanks: 796
Thanked 604 Times in 335 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by UDDoug
That's the problem when you don't have the facilities and don't invest in the program. While resources don't guarantee success they sure do enhance the likelihood of achieving and maintaining it. Programs that lack resources tend not to be programs. They hit a good recruit or two, have a good coach or two, and when either or both move on they gravitate back to the bottom or to mediocrity.
Plus programs that are funded and have resources tend to have more fans, which can translate to larger TV audience and more money.
If I were putting together a new conference, which is likely what would happen if UD and VCU did something, I'd put far more emphasis on facilities, resources and commitment than I would won/loss records.
|
Seems like the AAC would be a better bet at this time than the A10? Much bigger venues and resources than the A10 for sure.
|
04-11-2017, 02:49 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dayton, Oh
Posts: 1,525
Thanks: 735
Thanked 865 Times in 479 Posts
|
|
Gotcha covered...
|
Mad Props to pmcmullen For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
04-11-2017, 03:33 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,562
Thanks: 6,799
Thanked 6,172 Times in 4,202 Posts
|
|
This might have already been covered...
Is Wichita State getting an equal share of the AAC tv revenue?
Does football-only member Navy get an equal share of the tv revenue?
The internet says that each AAC school gets about $2 or $3 million per year in tv revenue, while, per a 2012 deal, each A10 school gets about $350k per year in tv revenue.
I have no idea where the $2 or $3 million figure comes from, the AAC signed a 7 year, $126 million tv deal in 2013. (126/7)/11=$1.6 million per year.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...9bb0f59aa.html
http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012...etball-schools:
Sources close to the deal say that the 16-school conference will earn $40 million over the eight years, or split $5 million a season. The A-10 currently has TV deals with both ESPN and CBS Sports Network. The NBC Sports Group is a new player in college sports and is actively acquiring new products, including a recent deal with the Colonial Athletic Association.
$5 million per year, split between 14 teams means each school will get a little more than $350,000 per year from the television contract.
There are 12 AAC football teams, including Navy, and 12 AAC basketball teams, including Wichita State.
Last edited by ud2; 04-11-2017 at 03:56 PM..
|
04-11-2017, 04:09 PM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,244
Thanks: 713
Thanked 1,043 Times in 451 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Thats funny, what I see is a team that each year plays a very weak OOC. Playing a weak OOC is why when they have a good year and tie for first in the A10 they get left out of the NCAA Tournament.
|
So you'd prefer they schedule tougher, take some nice checks and go 3-8 in the non-conference further eroding the conference strength as a whole. I'm trying to point out that Bonaventure is not the problem with the A10.
Ideally you'll have 3-4 programs consistently competing for conf championships. The next tier are programs that have a modest floor (typically around .500 in down years) and cyclically compete for conference championships/post-season play. The problem with the A10 is they have too many programs that just bottom out and stay there. In the best-case scenario the bottom of the A10 would be reserved for programs that had bad luck with injury or suffered coaching changes. The bottom would churn towards the middle and the middle would churn towards the top. The top would generally stay there.
The number of bids the conference receives is heavily correlated to its non-conference winning percentage. Most A10 teams can't afford to buy as many home wins as Dayton and many of the teams in the BE et al do.
|
Mad Props to Whacker For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
04-11-2017, 04:39 PM
|
|
Major General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,616
Thanks: 3,383
Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,418 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Whacker
So you'd prefer they schedule tougher, take some nice checks and go 3-8 in the non-conference further eroding the conference strength as a whole. I'm trying to point out that Bonaventure is not the problem with the A10.
Ideally you'll have 3-4 programs consistently competing for conf championships. The next tier are programs that have a modest floor (typically around .500 in down years) and cyclically compete for conference championships/post-season play. The problem with the A10 is they have too many programs that just bottom out and stay there. In the best-case scenario the bottom of the A10 would be reserved for programs that had bad luck with injury or suffered coaching changes. The bottom would churn towards the middle and the middle would churn towards the top. The top would generally stay there.
The number of bids the conference receives is heavily correlated to its non-conference winning percentage. Most A10 teams can't afford to buy as many home wins as Dayton and many of the teams in the BE et al do.
|
I'd prefer they play less than 16 schools with RPI's above 200. I don't think they should play a Davidson like schedule, but playing more 50-150 RPI schools isn't much to ask. I understand that some of those were A10 schools, but they often play very weak OOC.
Last edited by m21eagle45; 04-11-2017 at 04:41 PM..
|
04-11-2017, 05:32 PM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,717
Thanks: 748
Thanked 462 Times in 286 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud69
I still cannot understand the interest in a conference where football wags the dog.
|
One might argue that football wags the dog for the entire NCAA. UD may be one of the top non-FBS basketball schools, and yet, in many ways, we're consider by many as being lower on totem poll than mid-tier Power 5 schools.
|
04-11-2017, 05:35 PM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,717
Thanks: 748
Thanked 462 Times in 286 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud2
Why is the AAC money so much better than the A10 money?
Market size, attendance size/fan base size, and football I guess.
|
Because it's a league of big-time national private and public universities in large, growing markets.
|
04-11-2017, 05:43 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,099
Thanks: 2,201
Thanked 5,170 Times in 2,285 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05
Because it's a league of big-time national private and public universities in large, growing markets.
|
I have only seen references to the money difference - nothing concrete. Also, no reference to loss of NCAA basketball unit money. IMHOP, whatever variances exist are due to football money. Not sure how Wichita shares - if at all - in that. My view is that Wichita was mostly interested in getting out of a dying MVC.
As soon as UC and UConn bolt the AAC, the conference will resemble C-USA.
|
04-11-2017, 07:30 PM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,270
Thanks: 2,337
Thanked 3,923 Times in 2,155 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud2
This might have already been covered...
Is Wichita State getting an equal share of the AAC tv revenue?
Does football-only member Navy get an equal share of the tv revenue?
The internet says that each AAC school gets about $2 or $3 million per year in tv revenue, while, per a 2012 deal, each A10 school gets about $350k per year in tv revenue.
I have no idea where the $2 or $3 million figure comes from, the AAC signed a 7 year, $126 million tv deal in 2013. (126/7)/11=$1.6 million per year.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...9bb0f59aa.html
http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012...etball-schools:
Sources close to the deal say that the 16-school conference will earn $40 million over the eight years, or split $5 million a season. The A-10 currently has TV deals with both ESPN and CBS Sports Network. The NBC Sports Group is a new player in college sports and is actively acquiring new products, including a recent deal with the Colonial Athletic Association.
$5 million per year, split between 14 teams means each school will get a little more than $350,000 per year from the television contract.
There are 12 AAC football teams, including Navy, and 12 AAC basketball teams, including Wichita State.
|
Wichita & Navy get prorated amounts
|
04-11-2017, 07:34 PM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,270
Thanks: 2,337
Thanked 3,923 Times in 2,155 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud69
I have only seen references to the money difference - nothing concrete. Also, no reference to loss of NCAA basketball unit money. IMHOP, whatever variances exist are due to football money. Not sure how Wichita shares - if at all - in that. My view is that Wichita was mostly interested in getting out of a dying MVC.
As soon as UC and UConn bolt the AAC, the conference will resemble C-USA.
|
where are they going? Big12 vetted them both last year & decided to pass on expansion because they're no good candidates.
The basketball only cut in the AAC is bigger than the A10.
|
04-11-2017, 10:14 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,562
Thanks: 6,799
Thanked 6,172 Times in 4,202 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
Wichita & Navy get prorated amounts
|
How much is Wichita getting? $800k per year(half of $1.6 million)?
|
04-11-2017, 10:21 PM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,270
Thanks: 2,337
Thanked 3,923 Times in 2,155 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud2
How much is Wichita getting? $800k per year(half of $1.6 million)?
|
haven't seen the specifics that I can recall, maybe xubrew would know
|
04-11-2017, 11:06 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
|
|
There are always rumors that UCONN will join up with the BE as the 11th team to allow a 20 game round robin and find a conference to admit them as football only associate member.
|
04-11-2017, 11:20 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,099
Thanks: 2,201
Thanked 5,170 Times in 2,285 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
where are they going? Big12 vetted them both last year & decided to pass on expansion because they're no good candidates.
The basketball only cut in the AAC is bigger than the A10.
|
I predict one or both will leave the AAC within the next 5 years.
The TV money difference - can it be quantified? - probably does not offset the loss of NCAA unit money.
|
04-12-2017, 12:49 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,562
Thanks: 6,799
Thanked 6,172 Times in 4,202 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud69
I predict one or both will leave the AAC within the next 5 years.
The TV money difference - can it be quantified? - probably does not offset the loss of NCAA unit money.
|
I will guess that Wichita will now make $500k per year more from tv than UD.
I will also average out a NCAA unit from the last 4 years to be worth $260,000.
And I think we earned 8 units over the past 4 years.
260k X 8 =$2.08 million. I think we keep 75% of our units.
That leaves about $1.56 million.
We would break even in 3 years just on our units alone.
Maybe the rest of the A10 contributes about 4 units per year.
.25(X 260k x4 units)x3 years=780k
So, maybe overall we break even in 4.5 years.
And that is ignoring our share of whatever units we, and other AAC teams, earn in the AAC in those 4.5 years.
It seems like a no-brainer to join the AAC if invited.
Last edited by ud2; 04-12-2017 at 12:54 AM..
|
04-12-2017, 07:39 AM
|
|
Major General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,616
Thanks: 3,383
Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,418 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by UDDoug
There are always rumors that UCONN will join up with the BE as the 11th team to allow a 20 game round robin and find a conference to admit them as football only associate member.
|
The problem is, not many conferences, especially on the East Coast are open to that. The MAC won't take a football only member, they have already kicked out UMass because they wouldn't commit to more than football. No P5 would take them as football only. I think this rumor was started by BE fans and really has no legs. There just are not many options for UConn. Any other conference would be a huge downgrade in football and I do not see that happening.
|
04-12-2017, 08:17 AM
|
|
Brigadier General
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 2,990
Thanks: 1,012
Thanked 1,772 Times in 935 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by ud2
It seems like a no-brainer to join the AAC if invited.
|
It is. The problem is we haven't been.
|
04-12-2017, 09:06 AM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,244
Thanks: 713
Thanked 1,043 Times in 451 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by m21eagle45
I'd prefer they play less than 16 schools with RPI's above 200. I don't think they should play a Davidson like schedule, but playing more 50-150 RPI schools isn't much to ask. I understand that some of those were A10 schools, but they often play very weak OOC.
|
They should only schedule tougher if they think they have legit chance at NCAA. If they upgrade their schedule and lose those games all it does is hurt the conference. Bonaventure is actually following the model that should be used for any team in the A10 that isn't competing for post-season (which is at least half in any given year). Schedule 8-10 non-conference wins by any means necessary.
Davidson scheduled like they had a chance at NCAA this year, the only problem is the lost every one of their legit non-conf games. They played 4 top100 pom teams and lost them all (Clemson, Charleston, NC and Kansas). If they punch 2 out of those 4 they're probably in at-large conversation in Feb. I'm fine with that. Take your shots if you think your team merits the opportunity.
The issue is programs like Fordham and Duquesne aren't good enough to win that many non-conf games no matter what they schedule.
Bonaventure also traditionally plays Niagra, Canisius, Buffalo and Siena home and home as regional rivalry games. This year, their schedule was particularly poor due to the Lone Star Showcase they entered that had them playing Little Rock, C Mich and Pepperdine.
|
04-12-2017, 11:43 AM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,056
Thanks: 8,831
Thanked 8,589 Times in 3,714 Posts
|
|
Kudos to OSU Flyer for posting this on another thread
Pre-season number for next year, more predicted proof the A-10 is slowly sinking. Remember, just a few years back the argument was we were as good as the New Big East.
http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30856
Ken PomeroyVerified account @kenpomeroy Apr 7
Just checked my preseason ratings by conf. Kind of interesting. 1. B12, 2. BE, 3. SEC, 4. ACC, 5. B10, 6. P12, 7. AAC, 8. MW, 9. A10 10. MVC
That's the MVC sans Wichita
|
05-09-2017, 05:11 PM
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,782
Thanks: 796
Thanked 604 Times in 335 Posts
|
|
And the vacuum in the MVC is filled. Valpo moving from the Horizon to the MVC. Probably about the best move the MVC could have made.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...aiso-crusaders
|
05-09-2017, 05:18 PM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,642
Thanks: 1,559
Thanked 4,578 Times in 2,405 Posts
|
|
Well, effect this has on Dayton is they now have them in their football conference.
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|