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  #1  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:26 AM
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Stacked deck

https://t.co/sKmGsqpfwz

Anyone else see this? This bothers the heck out of me. BS with the just face the facts, that this the way it is and go out and challenge yourself. This is collusion at the hands of many government supported institutions.
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  #2  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:43 AM
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There is a split coming. The strategy was obvious with obtaining the NIT. It will be like football, there will be FBS and FCS. UD is currently on the wrong side of that line. We'll be competing against Findlay for the NIT bid.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:53 AM
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College football runs the NCAA, period.
Those Power 5 leagues make the rules.
100,000 in stands on Fall Saturday's is what it
takes. Sooner then later the Power 5 schools will hold the
64 team NCAA hoop tournanent. The Daytons of the world
will play in new "NIT"......unless we can play AND
beat some Power 5 teams
PITTS OFF
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:07 AM
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Folks: Don't count your chickens before they hatch! Football, despite the current euphoria for it, is on the decline. It is already dying in California and will just be a matter of time before it catches up to the rest of the country. Head trauma is the issue, and unless they go to a modified version of flag football, it will not let up. At that point, and I contend we are less than a decade away, the role of football in NCAA sports will decline massively.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
Folks: Don't count your chickens before they hatch! Football, despite the current euphoria for it, is on the decline. It is already dying in California and will just be a matter of time before it catches up to the rest of the country. Head trauma is the issue, and unless they go to a modified version of flag football, it will not let up. At that point, and I contend we are less than a decade away, the role of football in NCAA sports will decline massively.
The problem with the head trauma argument is that football per capita isn't even in the top 3 for concussions for sports. Men's and women's soccer, and gymnastics are both higher than football, but nobody ever talks about that. The headers in soccer do far more damage than people want to discuss. The media has latched on to football, but they should really look at the research that is out there. People are pushing kids to sports they think are safer.
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  #6  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:47 AM
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Appreciate the post, but I'm surprised that anyone would be surprised. It's been coming at a glacier pace for decades, and now is just gaining speed. We just have to do what Butler and Xavier did, and the P5 will ring our doorbell with neutral site offers. We have to get ranked first.

In the meantime, I can't wait for this season to start. Our future squads are looking good as well.
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:25 AM
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The top tier schools within each conference of the P5 spend hugeeeee sums of money on their athletic pursuits. The bottom tier of the schools in each conference spend way more money then UD does just to be 'relevant'.

In order to provide for that huge appetite they need to seek all manner of funding sources. One of them is the proliferation of FB bowl games that will take 6 win teams battling it out on the field and being rewarded with some TV money, let alone the premier bowl games where all sorts of money is given to both the participating school and conference.

The BB situation is similar. Anyone messin with that funding source is considered a threat.

Appalachian State beat the big blue M some years back. Although rare do you think they would have a chance in hell being invited to a major bowl? Na, didn't think so.

The NCAA is too powerful at the same time they seem totally inept (see shoe and pay to play scandal) to controlling the members. The NCAA officials tend to come from the very organizations that they are 'suppose' to oversee.

The personnel in the NCAA headquarters also are tied to the money train. If they push back too hard on their members, the power of the P5 could (and for all we know have already in some fashion) threaten to separate and form their 'own' organization.

Another part of this is the media (TV, Radio, Sports Bloggers, Sports web sites, etc). They either have paid, are paying, as well as receive large sums of money in return by way of ads and referrals (web sites and bloggers) to show, discuss or whatnot .... sports. And although it helps every once and awhile to have a Loyola-Chicago in the mix, people really want to see the big boys play against the big boys. This mentality of wanting to see the P5 schools compete is driven by the year round discussion in the media of the ..... P5 schools. How much time is devoted to Loyola-Chicago or for that matter UD on a regular basis in this year round discussion ... Nada! I thought so.

So you see the fate of all the non-P5 to be where they are and what they face will not change. Unless something significant happens to the NCAA and/or the structure of college sports (due to some outside forces) things will be getting tougher to be where we would like them to be.

It sucks!
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:35 AM
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Here in NC high school football is the most important sport. Yes, more beloved than basketball. It is now on the decline. Participation is down 20% the last two years. A few teams have cancelled their seasons. The survey taken shows that safety is an issue, but it is not the only one. There are several factors, like kids playing other fall sports and kids no longer playing multiple sports.
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:40 AM
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I will continue to say, what is holding the A10 back is the bottom of the A10. The A10 should try to get back down to 10 or 12 schools and get rid of the anchors that continue to hurt the league. Fordham, La Salle, Duquesne, and GW need to go. They all play in high school gyms, and don't spend on par with the rest of the league. Getting back to 10 would allow the A10 to play a true round robin schedule and and not have the RPI killers.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
The problem with the head trauma argument is that football per capita isn't even in the top 3 for concussions for sports. Men's and women's soccer, and gymnastics are both higher than football, but nobody ever talks about that. The headers in soccer do far more damage than people want to discuss. The media has latched on to football, but they should really look at the research that is out there. People are pushing kids to sports they think are safer.
100% correct but the difference, as you say, is we're only programmed to believe what we're subject to seeing........Few are dying in those other sports seemingly or even acknowledged as really ill, yet, we're seeing (simply because of the focus AND because of the huge $$$ of the giant NFL that consumes our TV's for 15 hours per week just in games) 45-50 plus year old former NFL players that can't talk or walk anymore..

Last edited by steve; 10-22-2018 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:31 PM
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Come to Piqua this Friday for the Troy game and
then tell me football is dying. Yes, squads may not
be as large as "in the day", but players 60-80 never saw
the field.
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Appreciate the post, but I'm surprised that anyone would be surprised. It's been coming at a glacier pace for decades, and now is just gaining speed. We just have to do what Butler and Xavier did, and the P5 will ring our doorbell with neutral site offers. We have to get ranked first.

In the meantime, I can't wait for this season to start. Our future squads are looking good as well.
Just WIN BABY!!!!
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I will continue to say, what is holding the A10 back is the bottom of the A10. The A10 should try to get back down to 10 or 12 schools and get rid of the anchors that continue to hurt the league. Fordham, La Salle, Duquesne, and GW need to go. They all play in high school gyms, and don't spend on par with the rest of the league. Getting back to 10 would allow the A10 to play a true round robin schedule and and not have the RPI killers.
THIS!
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I will continue to say, what is holding the A10 back is the bottom of the A10. The A10 should try to get back down to 10 or 12 schools and get rid of the anchors that continue to hurt the league. Fordham, La Salle, Duquesne, and GW need to go. They all play in high school gyms, and don't spend on par with the rest of the league. Getting back to 10 would allow the A10 to play a true round robin schedule and and not have the RPI killers.
I don't disagree! Kick 'em out ASAP.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:00 PM
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Someone on here did a quick and dirty calculation a cpl years ago of the major basketball conferences (say top-10-12 conferences) and the A10 had the biggest delta between the top end and bottom end.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
https://t.co/sKmGsqpfwz

Anyone else see this? This bothers the heck out of me. BS with the just face the facts, that this the way it is and go out and challenge yourself. This is collusion at the hands of many government supported institutions.
Yeah, it sucks big time. But unfortunately it's not going away. And as much as I hate it (because I'm a fan of a team on the outside), I can't look you in the eyes and say I would do anything differently if I was in charge of a power 5 school. Their job is to secure the best future possible for their school/conference, even if it means something negative for the little guys. It's not their concern. And to be honest, it shouldn't be.

So while it sucks, I have no ill will towards the Power 5 schools because I would do the same. The only organization that can stop it is the NCAA, and they know where their money comes from.

This is the main reason I can't get behind the "A10 is the best place for us!" argument. It's not. At least not for basketball. However, I will openly admit I don't have a full grasp of the effect it would have on our other sports. Looking at basketball in a silo - we need to be somewhere else.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66 View Post
Come to Piqua this Friday for the Troy game and
then tell me football is dying. Yes, squads may not
be as large as "in the day", but players 60-80 never saw
the field.
Compare the number of fans in the stands at most GWOC games compared to 2 or 3 decades ago. You still think football is not slowly dying?
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66 View Post
Come to Piqua this Friday for the Troy game and
then tell me football is dying. Yes, squads may not
be as large as "in the day", but players 60-80 never saw
the field.
Good point. I agree that many lower tier players are playing Lacrosse or soccer or nothing. Who it is affecting is the lower division schools who only had 30-40 kids back in the day.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:26 PM
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There’s no reason the P5 schools look at the Big East through a different lens than any other so-called mid-major conference. Everything with them begins and ends with football, so whether we’re in the A-10, Big East or any other league, nothing changes the dynamic. EXCEPT, perhaps, television. CBS, ESPN, etc. need to feast on ratings, and the David-Goliath storylines are sweet treats, particularly during the tournament. I suspect CBS would be hesitant to lose the spectacle of upsets, but that may not matter. If the NCAA acquiesces (as they’re doing now), the P5 can call their own shots. It all stinks, but it is what it is.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
There’s no reason the P5 schools look at the Big East through a different lens than any other so-called mid-major conference. Everything with them begins and ends with football, so whether we’re in the A-10, Big East or any other league, nothing changes the dynamic. EXCEPT, perhaps, television. CBS, ESPN, etc. need to feast on ratings, and the David-Goliath storylines are sweet treats, particularly during the tournament. I suspect CBS would be hesitant to lose the spectacle of upsets, but that may not matter. If the NCAA acquiesces (as they’re doing now), the P5 can call their own shots. It all stinks, but it is what it is.
As long as they allow the conference champions in the tournament, they will have a few upsets. Enough to satisfy the tournament only viewer.

Most of the P5 are state universities and they are screwing other state universities. Think of all the state supported non-P5 D1 schools in Ohio. The collusion by the P5 is hurting those schools. It is the same in many states. U of Alabama tried to kill UAB football. That is not right and should not be allowed.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Someone on here did a quick and dirty calculation a cpl years ago of the major basketball conferences (say top-10-12 conferences) and the A10 had the biggest delta between the top end and bottom end.
Attendance wise?

2017 Top 10 Attendance Discrepencies by Team Averages
Code:

              name              |  max  | min  | diff_top_bott 
--------------------------------+-------+------+---------------
 Atlantic Coast                 | 21462 | 4116 |         17346
 Southeastern                   | 21874 | 6882 |         14992
 West Coast                     | 14230 | 1156 |         13074
 Big Ten                        | 17272 | 4759 |         12513
 Pac 10                         | 14434 | 2886 |         11548
 Atlantic 10                    | 12996 | 1566 |         11430
 Big East                       | 17000 | 6147 |         10853
 Big 12                         | 16344 | 6331 |         10013
 Mountain West                  | 11344 | 1695 |          9649
 American Athletic              | 10787 | 1610 |          9177
Atlantic 10 is 8th when ranked by the highest attendance member.
Atlantic 10 is 10th when ranked by the lowest attendance member.
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  #22  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
The problem with the head trauma argument is that football per capita isn't even in the top 3 for concussions for sports. Men's and women's soccer, and gymnastics are both higher than football, but nobody ever talks about that. The headers in soccer do far more damage than people want to discuss. The media has latched on to football, but they should really look at the research that is out there. People are pushing kids to sports they think are safer.
My grand son is 5'11" and 190lbs as a Senior running back in a small High School outside of Dallas. He averages just over 100 yards/game in under 20 carries. Newcomer of the year as a Soph, All-Texoma district as a Junior, and destined to repeat this season.

He's getting Division II letters now, but the very warranted attention on concussions and CTE has hit home. With two concussions and both knees scoped in 3 varsity years, we are all in agreement (including him), that next week's Senior night game is his last. His carries will be limited and he is sitting out the last game. We are thankful for the football memories, but relieved that our hearts won't skip a beat every time play stops for someone who can't get up from the pile.

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Old 10-22-2018, 04:49 PM
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The last time I checked 1556 is more than than 1156. So that would make us 9th if ranked by the lowest. Just saying.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:59 PM
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Back to the topic at hand, it's clear UD has only four options:

1) get into either the Big East or AAC
2) Change the scheduling model and play one or two less buy games and go on the road
3) Continue what they are currently doing and HOPE they can play the RPI/NET game correctly to get us one of 2-4 non power 5, BE, or AAC invites
4) Win the conference tourney (we've done that so frequently over the years)

Option 1 is somewhat out of their control (although I think the AAC is attainable). Option 3 is out of their control for the most part with the Power 5 20 game conference schedule and the RPI/NET changes. That leaves option 2. (Option 4 is VERY RISKY)

Hopefully UD doesn't wait 5 years to finally realize the shifting sands like they did when conferences were forming. This is a potential death spiral if UD doesn't make the tourney...
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
2017 Top 10 Attendance Discrepencies by Team Averages
Code:

              name              |  max  | min  | diff_top_bott 
--------------------------------+-------+------+---------------
 West Coast                     | 14230 | 1156 |         13074
 Atlantic 10                    | 12996 | 1566 |         11430
Atlantic 10 is 10th when ranked by the lowest attendance member.
Originally Posted by momszer View Post
The last time I checked 1556 is more than than 1156. So that would make us 9th if ranked by the lowest. Just saying.
I posted the top 10 discrepencies. But, there are 32 conferences in the NCAA. The Missouri Valley has a minimum attendance of 2404, which is higher than 1566, which puts the Atlantic 10 at 10th when ranking by lowest attendance member.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
2) Change the scheduling model and play one or two less buy games and go on the road

That leaves option 2.
I do not want to hijack this thread, and I have beaten this topic a million ways to Sunday.

But, the A10 is slipping, we used to be the #7 conference, we are now #11, and we have not done anything with our ooc schedule to mitigate that slippage.

In addition, I do not feel like we are keeping up with the Joneses. We want to be considered as one of the best non-p5 schools, yet we refuse to schedule like the other best-in-class non-p5 schools do. VCU, Temple, Xavier, New Mexico, BYU, Gonzaga, Butler, and others have gone the extra mile and scheduled up by scheduling 1 or 2 more road games as part of home-and-home series, and they have all done it multiple times. We have never, not even once, scheduled up.

I do not care if we can not get enough p5's on the schedule, take the next best thing. Rhody just scheduled home-and-homes with Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State, we should schedule up with teams like WKU and MTSU.

You can not tell me that we can't get a h-and-h with WKU and MTSU, but yet Rhody can, give me a break.

At the very least, we should have an opportunity at a q1 or q2 road win and maybe even a q2 home win, vs. the WKU's and MTSU's of the world.

And BTW, why in the world are we playing 7, count 'em 7, buy games this year, instead of our normal 5? I would rather play both Miami of Ohio h-and-h, and, GASP!, play Wright State h-and-h, at least we would probably get a q2 road opportunity every year, along with 5 buy games, instead of playing 7 buy games. Just do: Miami at home and WSU away year 1, and Miami away and WSU at home year 2, rinse and repeat.

Buy games do nothing for you, you get no q1 or q2 opportunities from buy games.

So there, I did a 15/15 and Gem City Jam post all in one fell swoop.

And sorry for soiling your thread CE80.

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Old 10-23-2018, 08:43 AM
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Great idea on Miami AND Gem City Jam.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I do not want to hijack this thread, and I have beaten this topic a million ways to Sunday.

But, the A10 is slipping, we used to be the #7 conference, we are now #11, and we have not done anything with our ooc schedule to mitigate that slippage.

In addition, I do not feel like we are keeping up with the Joneses. We want to be considered as one of the best non-p5 schools, yet we refuse to schedule like the other best-in-class non-p5 schools do. VCU, Temple, Xavier, New Mexico, BYU, Gonzaga, Butler, and others have gone the extra mile and scheduled up by scheduling 1 or 2 more road games as part of home-and-home series, and they have all done it multiple times. We have never, not even once, scheduled up.

I do not care if we can not get enough p5's on the schedule, take the next best thing. Rhody just scheduled home-and-homes with Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State, we should schedule up with teams like WKU and MTSU.

You can not tell me that we can't get a h-and-h with WKU and MTSU, but yet Rhody can, give me a break.

At the very least, we should have an opportunity at a q1 or q2 road win and maybe even a q2 home win, vs. the WKU's and MTSU's of the world.

And BTW, why in the world are we playing 7, count 'em 7, buy games this year, instead of our normal 6? I would rather play both Miami of Ohio h-and-h, and, GASP!, play Wright State h-and-h, at least we would probably get a q2 road opportunity every year, along with 6 buy games, instead of playing 7 buy games. Just do: Miami at home and WSU away year 1, and Miami away and WSU at home year 2, rinse and repeat.

Buy games do nothing for you, you get no q1 or q2 opportunities from buy games.

So there, I did a 15/15 and Gem City Jam post all in one fell swoop.

And sorry for soiling your thread CE80.
The quad system of evaluating wins was nothing more than smoke to take away the the argument when a non-P5 team has an RPI superior to the P5 team. No matter how one classifies "good" wins, as long as the quantity of good wins is used as opposed to the % of good wins vs the opportunities for good wins, the deck will be stacked against the non-P5. There is nothing realistic the non-P5 teams can do. I suppose the Flyers could go on the road and play 6 P5 teams on the road but that is not realistic and I would expect once the P5 got wind of that, they would take steps to squash it. Just wait, the next domino to fall will be the pre-conference tourneys. They will become P5 v P5 challenge type tourneys.

Playing a bunch of WKUs and Miami's - anywhere - is not going to help the Flyers significantly.
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  #29  
Old 10-23-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I do not want to hijack this thread...…
So there, I did a 15/15 and Gem City Jam post all in one fell swoop.
…..
zzzzzzzz…
more same old... same old
with no hint of seeing the obvious that is right in front of your face
zzzzzzzz…
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  #30  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Just wait, the next domino to fall will be the pre-conference tourneys. They will become P5 v P5 challenge type tourneys.
Or worse....a bunch of non-P5 teams.

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Old 10-23-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I suppose the Flyers could go on the road and play 6 P5 teams on the road but that is not realistic

Playing a bunch of WKUs and Miami's - anywhere - is not going to help the Flyers significantly.
It always bothers me when someone refutes an argument by taking it to the extreme. Classic President Obama move. NO ONE is suggesting UD play six away games every year. The whole point was not to play so many NC A & T's and Presbyterian's of the world. That model is broken. And, I'm not even suggesting changing the model every year. Last year was not a year to play away games because we all knew we weren't going to fight for an at large birth. This year too probably. Starting next year, yes, the model needs to change.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I do not want to hijack this thread, and I have beaten this topic a million ways to Sunday.

But, the A10 is slipping, we used to be the #7 conference, we are now #11, and we have not done anything with our ooc schedule to mitigate that slippage.

In addition, I do not feel like we are keeping up with the Joneses. We want to be considered as one of the best non-p5 schools, yet we refuse to schedule like the other best-in-class non-p5 schools do. VCU, Temple, Xavier, New Mexico, BYU, Gonzaga, Butler, and others have gone the extra mile and scheduled up by scheduling 1 or 2 more road games as part of home-and-home series, and they have all done it multiple times. We have never, not even once, scheduled up.

I do not care if we can not get enough p5's on the schedule, take the next best thing. Rhody just scheduled home-and-homes with Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State, we should schedule up with teams like WKU and MTSU.

You can not tell me that we can't get a h-and-h with WKU and MTSU, but yet Rhody can, give me a break.

At the very least, we should have an opportunity at a q1 or q2 road win and maybe even a q2 home win, vs. the WKU's and MTSU's of the world.

And BTW, why in the world are we playing 7, count 'em 7, buy games this year, instead of our normal 5? I would rather play both Miami of Ohio h-and-h, and, GASP!, play Wright State h-and-h, at least we would probably get a q2 road opportunity every year, along with 5 buy games, instead of playing 7 buy games. Just do: Miami at home and WSU away year 1, and Miami away and WSU at home year 2, rinse and repeat.

Buy games do nothing for you, you get no q1 or q2 opportunities from buy games.

So there, I did a 15/15 and Gem City Jam post all in one fell swoop.

And sorry for soiling your thread CE80.

I don't necessarily agree with Miami or Write State as home and homes, but I agree as P5 options dry up, and they are going to continue to get more difficult to schedule, we need to be willing to play more H and H series. Seven buy games is to many.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
It always bothers me when someone refutes an argument by taking it to the extreme. Classic President Obama move. NO ONE is suggesting UD play six away games every year. The whole point was not to play so many NC A & T's and Presbyterian's of the world. That model is broken. And, I'm not even suggesting changing the model every year. Last year was not a year to play away games because we all knew we weren't going to fight for an at large birth. This year too probably. Starting next year, yes, the model needs to change.
I wasn’t trying to be extreme. That’s what it would take to get a schedule comparable to a P5 program. A game or 2 is not going to make a big enough difference.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I do not want to hijack this thread, and I have beaten this topic a million ways to Sunday.

But, the A10 is slipping, we used to be the #7 conference, we are now #11, and we have not done anything with our ooc schedule to mitigate that slippage.

In addition, I do not feel like we are keeping up with the Joneses. We want to be considered as one of the best non-p5 schools, yet we refuse to schedule like the other best-in-class non-p5 schools do. VCU, Temple, Xavier, New Mexico, BYU, Gonzaga, Butler, and others have gone the extra mile and scheduled up by scheduling 1 or 2 more road games as part of home-and-home series, and they have all done it multiple times. We have never, not even once, scheduled up.

I do not care if we can not get enough p5's on the schedule, take the next best thing. Rhody just scheduled home-and-homes with Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State, we should schedule up with teams like WKU and MTSU.

You can not tell me that we can't get a h-and-h with WKU and MTSU, but yet Rhody can, give me a break.

At the very least, we should have an opportunity at a q1 or q2 road win and maybe even a q2 home win, vs. the WKU's and MTSU's of the world.

And BTW, why in the world are we playing 7, count 'em 7, buy games this year, instead of our normal 5? I would rather play both Miami of Ohio h-and-h, and, GASP!, play Wright State h-and-h, at least we would probably get a q2 road opportunity every year, along with 5 buy games, instead of playing 7 buy games. Just do: Miami at home and WSU away year 1, and Miami away and WSU at home year 2, rinse and repeat.

Buy games do nothing for you, you get no q1 or q2 opportunities from buy games.

So there, I did a 15/15 and Gem City Jam post all in one fell swoop.

And sorry for soiling your thread CE80.

Hijacking this thread or not - I could not let this post go unchallenged.
Our non-con SOS was #2 in the country last year for gosh sakes! The only team in the country to play a more difficult non-con schedule than Dayton last year was Savannah State. Savannah State went 1-12 in their non-con schedule and had zero quad 1, quad 2, or quad 3 wins for the whole season. Their only non-con win was over Alabama State (RPI #333)!
How do you suggest we improve on #2?

The entire A-10 played the #2 ranked non-con schedule of all the conferences. The reason the A-10 went from #7 to #11 was the abysmal non-con record (90-82 .523%) - the worst in recent history. That non-con winning percentage needs to be near 70%. Forget all the other stuff, the A-10 teams just need to win more non-con games

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Old 10-24-2018, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Hijacking this thread or not - I could not let this post go unchallenged.
Our non-con SOS was #2 in the country last year for gosh sakes! The only team in the country to play a more difficult non-con schedule than Dayton last year was Savannah State. Savannah State went 1-12 in their non-con schedule and had zero quad 1, quad 2, or quad 3 wins for the whole season. Their only non-con win was over Alabama State (RPI #333)!
How do you suggest we improve on #2?

The entire A-10 played the #2 ranked non-con schedule of all the conferences. The reason the A-10 went from #7 to #11 was the abysmal non-con record (90-82 .523%) - the worst in recent history. That non-con winning percentage needs to be near 70%. Forget all the other stuff, the A-10 teams just need to win more non-con games
Not arguing any of that, but would you really rather see us play Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy or Miami and Wright State? Playing Miami/Wright State certainly isn't going to hurt our Non-Con SOS and would certainly be more entertaining.

Good news is, if you would rather see Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy, you'll get your wish very soon.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Not arguing any of that, but would you really rather see us play Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy or Miami and Wright State? Playing Miami/Wright State certainly isn't going to hurt our Non-Con SOS and would certainly be more entertaining.

Good news is, if you would rather see Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy, you'll get your wish very soon.

You are missing the point. Unless these schools are willing to be one way games (up to now they have not), then the comparison is not to Presbyterian or Detroit - it is to Mississippi State and Auburn.

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Old 10-24-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
You are missing the point. Unless these schools are willing to be one way games (up to now they have not), then the comparison is not to Presbyterian or Detroit - it is to Mississippi State and Auburn.

True if we have to keep the same number of buy games. If the argument is that we should play one or two less buy games, then the comparison is valid again.


However, if we ever make the move to play less buy games, I hope we aim higher than Wright State or Miami.
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
You are missing the point. Unless these schools are willing to be one way games (up to now they have not), then the comparison is not to Presbyterian or Detroit - it is to Mississippi State and Auburn.
Why can't it replace Presbyterian/Detroit Mercy this year and the equivalent games next year?

I understand it's too late to change this year - just using it as an example. There are multiple useless games on our schedule every year. Not asking to replace power 5 opponents.

EDIT: I also understand this would mean replacing a meaningless home game with a road game. I would still rather watch that.

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Old 10-24-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Not arguing any of that, but would you really rather see us play Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy or Miami and Wright State? Playing Miami/Wright State certainly isn't going to hurt our Non-Con SOS and would certainly be more entertaining.

Good news is, if you would rather see Presbyterian and Detroit Mercy, you'll get your wish very soon.
Not the point at all.Miami and WSU aren't just in it for a pay day like the other schools..They want a home and away and UD gains nothing either financially for that on the away game and gain nothing in SOS...
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Why can't it replace Presbyterian/Detroit Mercy this year and the equivalent games next year?

I understand it's too late to change this year - just using it as an example. There are multiple useless games on our schedule every year. Not asking to replace power 5 opponents.

EDIT: I also understand this would mean replacing a meaningless home game with a road game. I would still rather watch that.

If we're going to have an extra road game we sure as heck want it to be a better game than Miami or WSU.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
If we're going to have an extra road game we sure as heck want it to be a better game than Miami or WSU.
Originally Posted by steve View Post
Not the point at all.Miami and WSU aren't just in it for a pay day like the other schools..They want a home and away and UD gains nothing either financially for that on the away game and gain nothing in SOS...
Beating Wright State on the road last year would have qualified as a Quadrant 2 win. That's certainly not going to hurt. In fact, one might argue that would be helpful to a tournament resume.

I agree that I would like to do better than Wright State/Miami for non-con games, but as stated at the beginning of this thread - the big guys don't want to play us. I think we do a phenomenal job getting the games we do. But ditching Detroit Mercy for a potential Q2 win seems like a no-brainer.

Not to mention - it would be great to have an actual non-con rivalry to look forward to. That alone would be good for the program.

The problem is there is a group of fans that will immediately dismiss the idea of playing Wright State for various reasons. One of them, as stated above, is that we are above playing Wright State. We are too good for them. It's hypocritical because we talk about what a-holes X is for not scheduling us, but we want to turn around and do the same to WSU, using the exact same reason.

Wright State was 48 spots ahead of us in RPI last year and they were in the dance. It may be time to reevaluate whether or not we are too good for them. A cross-town rivalry would be great fun for the teams and fans - at least fans under the age of 50 who aren't holding on to some long time grudge.

I know it's not a popular opinion - so have at me.

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Old 10-24-2018, 04:16 PM
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Couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Beating Wright State on the road last year would have qualified as a Quadrant 2 win. That's certainly not going to hurt. In fact, one might argue that would be helpful to a tournament resume.

I agree that I would like to do better than Wright State/Miami for non-con games, but as stated at the beginning of this thread - the big guys don't want to play us. I think we do a phenomenal job getting the games we do. But ditching Detroit Mercy for a potential Q2 win seems like a no-brainer.

Not to mention - it would be great to have an actual non-con rivalry to look forward to. That alone would be good for the program.

The problem is there is a group of fans that will immediately dismiss the idea of playing Wright State for various reasons. One of them, as stated above, is that we are above playing Wright State. We are too good for them. It's hypocritical because we talk about what a-holes X is for not scheduling us, but we want to turn around and do the same to WSU, using the exact same reason.

Wright State was 48 spots ahead of us in RPI last year and they were in the dance. It may be time to reevaluate whether or not we are too good for them. A cross-town rivalry would be great fun for the teams and fans - at least fans under the age of 50 who aren't holding on to some long time grudge.

I know it's not a popular opinion - so have at me.

End rant.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Beating Wright State on the road last year would have qualified as a Quadrant 2 win. That's certainly not going to hurt. In fact, one might argue that would be helpful to a tournament resume.

I agree that I would like to do better than Wright State/Miami for non-con games, but as stated at the beginning of this thread - the big guys don't want to play us. I think we do a phenomenal job getting the games we do. But ditching Detroit Mercy for a potential Q2 win seems like a no-brainer.

Not to mention - it would be great to have an actual non-con rivalry to look forward to. That alone would be good for the program.

The problem is there is a group of fans that will immediately dismiss the idea of playing Wright State for various reasons. One of them, as stated above, is that we are above playing Wright State. We are too good for them. It's hypocritical because we talk about what a-holes X is for not scheduling us, but we want to turn around and do the same to WSU, using the exact same reason.

Wright State was 48 spots ahead of us in RPI last year and they were in the dance. It may be time to reevaluate whether or not we are too good for them. A cross-town rivalry would be great fun for the teams and fans - at least fans under the age of 50 who aren't holding on to some long time grudge.

I know it's not a popular opinion - so have at me.

End rant.
I am not that fanatical about not playing Wright St. However, playing them even under last year's scenario whereby a win would have given us a Q2 win, still would not make a difference on our tournament resume. The Bonnies were 3-3 in Q1 games and got the First Four. Oklahoma was 6-9 and got a 10 seed. Don't believe the narrative that Q2 wins mean a whole lot. Even a team like the Flyers, playing in the A10 will not be able to over come this stacked deck. It will take outside influences.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Beating Wright State on the road last year would have qualified as a Quadrant 2 win. That's certainly not going to hurt. In fact, one might argue that would be helpful to a tournament resume.

I agree that I would like to do better than Wright State/Miami for non-con games, but as stated at the beginning of this thread - the big guys don't want to play us. I think we do a phenomenal job getting the games we do. But ditching Detroit Mercy for a potential Q2 win seems like a no-brainer.

Not to mention - it would be great to have an actual non-con rivalry to look forward to. That alone would be good for the program.

The problem is there is a group of fans that will immediately dismiss the idea of playing Wright State for various reasons. One of them, as stated above, is that we are above playing Wright State. We are too good for them. It's hypocritical because we talk about what a-holes X is for not scheduling us, but we want to turn around and do the same to WSU, using the exact same reason.

Wright State was 48 spots ahead of us in RPI last year and they were in the dance. It may be time to reevaluate whether or not we are too good for them. A cross-town rivalry would be great fun for the teams and fans - at least fans under the age of 50 who aren't holding on to some long time grudge.

I know it's not a popular opinion - so have at me.

End rant.
You're talking about WSU pretty regularly as we all have for years, so, finally, last year WSU had a RPI under 120 for the first time in 8-9 years, yet, you want UD to somehow just add them onto their schedule.Maybe they could schedule a pickup game on an off night and try to sell it to the NCAA....It can take 2-3 years to get these teams on the schedule.

That's like the past couple winters prior to last year in Dayton where temps. hit in the 60's multiple times in the winter and all of a sudden Dayton is now considered tropical. I, as well as many many others, have no issue playing them but let's let them become somewhat relevant first and a model of some consistency. You simply cannot ignore this if you're UD and a team that has usually been a cusp team for the NCAA and a team that is not just going to give up the UD arena revenue to go play a team over the years where they have ZERO to gain and everything to lose both on and off the court..

I, personally, would like to see a home/ home away game over 3 years or a home/away over 2 years with them as it would be great for the city and maybe it would be great for UD from a RPI standpoint, as well, some day.
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  #45  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
If we're going to have an extra road game we sure as heck want it to be a better game than Miami or WSU.
I agree, I think we can do better than Miami or WSU.

My post was just for example purposes.

We normally play 5 buy games, but this year, we play 7 buy games. So, we added 1 buy game, instead of starting a h-and-h at home, plus the extra exempt tournament buy game. We are playing 31 games this year.

Since we decided to drop Miami, IMO, we should have replaced them with a h-and-h, starting at home, and not just added another buy game.

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Old 10-24-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
yet, you want UD to somehow just add them onto their schedule.
To be fair to me (I usually am) that's not what I'm asking for at all. I even called that out in a previous post - I know we can't add games for this season. Just using the current schedule as an example - because when we made it we had other options at the time.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Hijacking this thread or not - I could not let this post go unchallenged.
Our non-con SOS was #2 in the country last year for gosh sakes! The only team in the country to play a more difficult non-con schedule than Dayton last year was Savannah State. Savannah State went 1-12 in their non-con schedule and had zero quad 1, quad 2, or quad 3 wins for the whole season. Their only non-con win was over Alabama State (RPI #333)!
How do you suggest we improve on #2?

The entire A-10 played the #2 ranked non-con schedule of all the conferences. The reason the A-10 went from #7 to #11 was the abysmal non-con record (90-82 .523%) - the worst in recent history. That non-con winning percentage needs to be near 70%. Forget all the other stuff, the A-10 teams just need to win more non-con games
Using the old metrics I agree. If the Power 5 conferences remain at 18 conference games I agree.

The times they are a changin...if we don't we're risking irrelevance. Of the four scenarios I laid out earlier, I think the one that has the least risk is joining the AAC...as soon as possible.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
The quad system of evaluating wins was nothing more than smoke to take away the the argument when a non-P5 team has an RPI superior to the P5 team. No matter how one classifies "good" wins, as long as the quantity of good wins is used as opposed to the % of good wins vs the opportunities for good wins, the deck will be stacked against the non-P5. There is nothing realistic the non-P5 teams can do. I suppose the Flyers could go on the road and play 6 P5 teams on the road but that is not realistic and I would expect once the P5 got wind of that, they would take steps to squash it. Just wait, the next domino to fall will be the pre-conference tourneys. They will become P5 v P5 challenge type tourneys.

Playing a bunch of WKUs and Miami's - anywhere - is not going to help the Flyers significantly.
All we can do is just make the best of the situation, otherwise we might as well just drop down to d2. Obviously, I think there is some room for improvement as far as the schedule is concerned.

Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
zzzzzzzz…
more same old... same old
with no hint of seeing the obvious that is right in front of your face
zzzzzzzz…
Yes, I have no idea what you mean. Please explain. If you are satisfied with the schedule, then there is nothing that I can say to change your mind.

Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Hijacking this thread or not - I could not let this post go unchallenged.
Our non-con SOS was #2 in the country last year for gosh sakes! The only team in the country to play a more difficult non-con schedule than Dayton last year was Savannah State. Savannah State went 1-12 in their non-con schedule and had zero quad 1, quad 2, or quad 3 wins for the whole season. Their only non-con win was over Alabama State (RPI #333)!
How do you suggest we improve on #2?

The entire A-10 played the #2 ranked non-con schedule of all the conferences. The reason the A-10 went from #7 to #11 was the abysmal non-con record (90-82 .523%) - the worst in recent history. That non-con winning percentage needs to be near 70%. Forget all the other stuff, the A-10 teams just need to win more non-con games
What makes you think that the A10 non-con record is going to improve? What if it does not improve? If it does not improve, then we are in trouble. I do not feel comfortable leaving our fate in the hands of our conference mates.

My suggestion for improvement is to drop 2 buy games and replace them with 2 home-and-home series.

We have only managed to get a 7 seed with the current scheduling model with the best coach we have had in decades.

Our overall sos is still not where I want it to be. The A10 has gotten weaker, I think we need to be doing more with the schedule if we are going to grow the program/get a better seed/consistently advance deep into the NCAAT.

Go to www.collegerpi.com. Click on the schools menu at the top of the page. Look at Temple(their A10 years), VCU(their A10 years), and Xavier(their A10 years). Click on the RPI history link. The magic number/benchmark in terms of overall sos seems to be 60 or better. I want our overall sos to be 60 or better every single year. We are still not achieving that goal, we are consistently in the upper 60's or worse, we still need to improve the sos more.

I feel that those 3 schools represent the best sort of apples to apples comparison to us since they were/are in the A10.

We should be copying the best practices of the non-p5 industry leaders such as Temple, VCU, and Xavier.

All 3 of those schools have consistently out-scheduled us when they were/are in the A10. We should be matching what 3 schools did/are doing in the A10.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
I don't necessarily agree with Miami or Write State as home and homes, but I agree as P5 options dry up, and they are going to continue to get more difficult to schedule, we need to be willing to play more H and H series. Seven buy games is to many.
Yes, those were just for example, we can do better than those 2.

We dropped Miami, but this year at least, we replaced them with a buy game. If we are going to do that, then why did we drop them in the first place? We would have been better off leaving them on the schedule.

The schedule went backwards this year.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
My suggestion for improvement is to drop 2 buy games and replace them with 2 home-and-home series.
Which teams are you gonna get a home/home series with? Start naming programs. Its not enough that we want to them; they have to want to play us.

Second, you're model would reduce the home schedule by 1 game. Unless you want the other 15 game ticket prices raised to counter the loss of a home game's revenue, UD will have to come up with the money elsewhere or do without. If they do without, they will be doing without:

13,000 tickets sold @$25 a piece = $325,000.
Concessions = $35,000
Misc: $10,000

So we're close to $400K. That's the entire budget (including coaches salaries) of one Olympic sport. Pick the one we drop - and we're not talking tennis or rowing because they ain't getting that kind of money to begin with.

But lets say we still did everything you're requesting and found the money to do it. Is all that effort worth improving our Non-Con SOS from #2 to #1?

The Power-5 schools dont want to play us. And scheduling is as much art as science. Suppose you schedule a tough home/home on December 15th. And then you have a 3-game Holiday tournament in Acapulco on December 20, 21, and 22. And now suppose you were lucky enough to find a Power-5 team or perennial NCAA team like Oregon for another home and home, but the deal is it has to start on the road. And the only time they want to play the game is between 12/15 and 12/19. So you're now saddled with asking yourself if you want your MBB team to:

Play a Top-10 team at home on 12/15.
Travel all the way across the country on about one day rest and then prepare for a game on...say...12/17. Then travel all the way back -- losing 3hrs from the time zone change in the process. Getting back late on the 18th. And then immediately pack bags and get on another plane to Mexico to arrive at midnight on the 18th or early morning of the 19th. Then prepare to play three games against NCAA at-large level teams in a row on the 20th, 21st, and 22nd.

That's complete suicide. Its not fair to the program. Its not fair to the players or coaches. As much as you're flattered Oregon agreed to play us, there's no other answer we can give them other than "sorry but its not going to work out." When the smoke clears, they are still student athletes. They need rest. You cant walk a team into an important 3-game Holiday tourney thats just been clobbered by two teams and jetted 6,000 miles round trip without any sleep and ask them to prepare (nevermind WIN) three more of those types of games. The chances that UD team -- or any team -- ends up 1-4 or 0-5 out of that mess is very doable and serves absolutely no purpose of helping UD's postseason resume.

You still have to win games. That's the bottom line. Name one season UD deserved an NCAA bid and didnt get one? I can think of any since Donoher left the bench. Even the year Chris Wright was injured, there was no assurance he would play in the NIT and we had too many losses for comfort anyway. So its not like the NCAA has shafted us. Ask St. Bonnie about what being shafted feels like. Perhaps our seeds have been tough draws, but those seeds were not reflections of bad scheduling. They were reflections of not winning enough games.

You're looking at this entire problem from the wrong end of the stick. Instead of changing the #2 schedule in the country to try to make it better, why not just win more games playing the #2 schedule in the country? Just. Win. More. Games.

Winning more games seems like the easiest part we can control because we dont need anyone's further permission, calendar, or flight schedule to make it happen. Instead of winning 23 games a year, why not just win 25 or 26? Problem solved.

Sure we can't do anything about the A10 schedule, but its been that way for two decades. Why get indigestion over it now -- when our non-con scheduling has actually gotten better and more effective to counter the A10's shortcomings?

You need the galactic stars to align to make a better schedule than we've put together in recent years. But it only takes more points on the scoreboard to win more games. Here's a deal: lets just win more games and if that doesn't solve the problem, then we can look into trying to better our #2 schedule. But lets give winning more games a scientific A/B testing opportunity first and see if it changes our lot in life. I have a suspicious feeling that winning more games will help our profile and our NCAA seed and make all our problems go away like Calgon.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
13,000 tickets sold @$25 a piece = $325,000.
Concessions = $35,000
Misc: $10,000

So we're close to $400K. That's the entire budget (including coaches salaries) of one Olympic sport. Pick the one we drop - and we're not talking tennis or rowing because they ain't getting that kind of money to begin with.

But lets say we still did everything you're requesting and found the money to do it. Is all that effort worth improving our Non-Con SOS from #2 to #1?
But it's not close to $400k. It's $370k minus the money paid to the visitors for the buy game minus the money it costs to operate UD arena for a game. Revenue doesn't keep other programs alive, profit does. That said, it's still a lot of money.

And I don't think it's in an effort to go from #2 non-con to #1. It's to move up from 105th overall (according to ESPN). We can stay at #2, but if we can move up from outside the top 100 overall it may be worth it. Obviously there isn't anything we can do about the conference schedule. Yes we've dealt with that forever, but the conference is getting weaker - which puts more pressure on the non-con.

All of that said, I'm not pretending to be smarter than Neil. I think he does a fantastic job. When I talk about Wright State (or other Ohio Schools) I'm in it more for the cross-town rivalry. I think it would be good for the program. With all of the great rivalries in college basketball and with so many of them location based, I think it's silly that we ignore the D1 program 10 miles from us.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Which teams are you gonna get a home/home series with? Start naming programs. Its not enough that we want to them; they have to want to play us.

Second, you're model would reduce the home schedule by 1 game. Unless you want the other 15 game ticket prices raised to counter the loss of a home game's revenue, UD will have to come up with the money elsewhere or do without. If they do without, they will be doing without:

13,000 tickets sold @$25 a piece = $325,000.
Concessions = $35,000
Misc: $10,000

So we're close to $400K. That's the entire budget (including coaches salaries) of one Olympic sport. Pick the one we drop - and we're not talking tennis or rowing because they ain't getting that kind of money to begin with.

But lets say we still did everything you're requesting and found the money to do it. Is all that effort worth improving our Non-Con SOS from #2 to #1?

The Power-5 schools dont want to play us. And scheduling is as much art as science. Suppose you schedule a tough home/home on December 15th. And then you have a 3-game Holiday tournament in Acapulco on December 20, 21, and 22. And now suppose you were lucky enough to find a Power-5 team or perennial NCAA team like Oregon for another home and home, but the deal is it has to start on the road. And the only time they want to play the game is between 12/15 and 12/19. So you're now saddled with asking yourself if you want your MBB team to:

Play a Top-10 team at home on 12/15.
Travel all the way across the country on about one day rest and then prepare for a game on...say...12/17. Then travel all the way back -- losing 3hrs from the time zone change in the process. Getting back late on the 18th. And then immediately pack bags and get on another plane to Mexico to arrive at midnight on the 18th or early morning of the 19th. Then prepare to play three games against NCAA at-large level teams in a row on the 20th, 21st, and 22nd.

That's complete suicide. Its not fair to the program. Its not fair to the players or coaches. As much as you're flattered Oregon agreed to play us, there's no other answer we can give them other than "sorry but its not going to work out." When the smoke clears, they are still student athletes. They need rest. You cant walk a team into an important 3-game Holiday tourney thats just been clobbered by two teams and jetted 6,000 miles round trip without any sleep and ask them to prepare (nevermind WIN) three more of those types of games. The chances that UD team -- or any team -- ends up 1-4 or 0-5 out of that mess is very doable and serves absolutely no purpose of helping UD's postseason resume.

You still have to win games. That's the bottom line. Name one season UD deserved an NCAA bid and didnt get one? I can think of any since Donoher left the bench. Even the year Chris Wright was injured, there was no assurance he would play in the NIT and we had too many losses for comfort anyway. So its not like the NCAA has shafted us. Ask St. Bonnie about what being shafted feels like. Perhaps our seeds have been tough draws, but those seeds were not reflections of bad scheduling. They were reflections of not winning enough games.

You're looking at this entire problem from the wrong end of the stick. Instead of changing the #2 schedule in the country to try to make it better, why not just win more games playing the #2 schedule in the country? Just. Win. More. Games.

Winning more games seems like the easiest part we can control because we dont need anyone's further permission, calendar, or flight schedule to make it happen. Instead of winning 23 games a year, why not just win 25 or 26? Problem solved.

Sure we can't do anything about the A10 schedule, but its been that way for two decades. Why get indigestion over it now -- when our non-con scheduling has actually gotten better and more effective to counter the A10's shortcomings?

You need the galactic stars to align to make a better schedule than we've put together in recent years. But it only takes more points on the scoreboard to win more games. Here's a deal: lets just win more games and if that doesn't solve the problem, then we can look into trying to better our #2 schedule. But lets give winning more games a scientific A/B testing opportunity first and see if it changes our lot in life. I have a suspicious feeling that winning more games will help our profile and our NCAA seed and make all our problems go away like Calgon.
Wasn't there a year when they showed us prior to announcing the teams on national television and we were the only team shown who wasn't invited. I thought it was Notre Dame, whose RPI was like 20 something higher and their SOS was higher as well?
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:19 AM
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The last time WSU and Dayton played I think they drew just over 10K, which is basically the gate for a buy game. Then, when Dayton plays there it sells out, mostly with Dayton fans. Which amounts to a buy game (Dayton paying them) on their court. I'm not against playing WSU but why home and home?
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Old 10-25-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer Dave View Post
Wasn't there a year when they showed us prior to announcing the teams on national television and we were the only team shown who wasn't invited. I thought it was Notre Dame, whose RPI was like 20 something higher and their SOS was higher as well?
I believe it was Ryan Perryman's senior year and the team was at Purnell's house.
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
If you are satisfied with the schedule, then there is nothing that I can say to change your mind.

But you sure keep trying.
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post

Go to www.collegerpi.com. Click on the schools menu at the top of the page. Look at Temple(their A10 years), VCU(their A10 years), and Xavier(their A10 years). Click on the RPI history link. The magic number/benchmark in terms of overall sos seems to be 60 or better. I want our overall sos to be 60 or better every single year. We are still not achieving that goal, we are consistently in the upper 60's or worse, we still need to improve the sos more.

I feel that those 3 schools represent the best sort of apples to apples comparison to us since they were/are in the A10.

We should be copying the best practices of the non-p5 industry leaders such as Temple, VCU, and Xavier.

All 3 of those schools have consistently out-scheduled us when they were/are in the A10. We should be matching what 3 schools did/are doing in the A10.
The world has changed dramatically since the Temple and X, A10 years. Any comparison to those years is pointless.
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
The last time WSU and Dayton played I think they drew just over 10K, which is basically the gate for a buy game. Then, when Dayton plays there it sells out, mostly with Dayton fans. Which amounts to a buy game (Dayton paying them) on their court. I'm not against playing WSU but why home and home?
WSU needs to accept a buy game. Every little bit helps.
https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...cPLnJi8OEDfKN/

The report was created by the WSU administration and filed with a fact-finder as part of ongoing contract negotiations with the faculty union. It paints a vivid picture of Wright State’s budget trouble and shares certain details publicly for the first time.

“It will take WSU more than 20 years to get back to the financial position it was in just six years ago,” the report states.

Any school that falls below a 1.75 two years in a row is put on notice. Wright State projected its score last year was a .8, meaning one more year below a 1.75 would put the school on fiscal watch.
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Old 10-25-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
But it's not close to $400k. It's $370k minus the money paid to the visitors for the buy game minus the money it costs to operate UD arena for a game. Revenue doesn't keep other programs alive, profit does. That said, it's still a lot of money.

And I don't think it's in an effort to go from #2 non-con to #1. It's to move up from 105th overall (according to ESPN). We can stay at #2, but if we can move up from outside the top 100 overall it may be worth it. Obviously there isn't anything we can do about the conference schedule. Yes we've dealt with that forever, but the conference is getting weaker - which puts more pressure on the non-con.

All of that said, I'm not pretending to be smarter than Neil. I think he does a fantastic job. When I talk about Wright State (or other Ohio Schools) I'm in it more for the cross-town rivalry. I think it would be good for the program. With all of the great rivalries in college basketball and with so many of them location based, I think it's silly that we ignore the D1 program 10 miles from us.
Just gotta win more games and/or hope the A10 can win more OOC games and up their RPI's. A combination brings UD into the top 35-40 yearly. And, imo, WSU is on the up and up with their new coach. And unless he decides to find greener pastures, WSU is going to be top 1-2 in the Horizon for years to come and win 23-24 games a year.
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Old 10-25-2018, 11:54 AM
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There's nothing that says small time like WSU being your big rivalry.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
13,000 tickets sold @$25 a piece = $325,000.
Concessions = $35,000
Misc: $10,000
I will just respond to the $ part now, I will respond to the rest later, I know that everybody can't wait for all my responses and just loves all my responses, lol.

$370,000 is our budget shortfall.

13,000x15 gamesx$1.90=$370,500

If we raise ticket prices across the board by $1.90 per game, then we have met our shortfall. And again, that completely ignores the factors that MNFats mentioned: 2 less buy game payouts and not having to operate the arena for 1 night, so the number is significantly less than $370k.

The below link from 2015 says that buy game payouts are somewhere between $50k to $100k per game. So, let's average that out to $75k for 2 games. That is $150k. That reduces our budget shortfall to $220,000.

13,000x15 gamesx$1.15=$224,000. So, I think we really would only need to raise ticket prices by $1.15 per ticket.

You really think that the vast majority of people are going to complain about a less than $2, one-time ticket price increase? I think hardly nobody would even notice.



http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...124-story.html

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Old 10-25-2018, 01:08 PM
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Model is fine for people who actually like going to games support their favorite team. I'd actually like to have more games at home. I love watching the Flyers play live. Not so much a fan of seeing them on television. But then again, I don't have the expendable income to just hop in the car or on a plane to go to these In season tournaments or free time to take off and go to the away games. If the model changes and there are lessnhome games, people like me (and I promise there are many) will be the ones shafted by this philosophy.
I understand some of the logic presented, however it would contribute to make the Flyers a less attractive investment for regular fans.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
You really think that the vast majority of people are going to complain about a less than $2, one-time ticket price increase? I think hardly nobody would even notice.
Yes. By a landslide. They are going to notice one less home game. Using your numbers, most fans would gladly trade $2 for an additional game at UD Arena -- opponent be darned.

And you're looking at the $2 from an individual level. Any one person may not miss that. But UD is on the other end of those dollars and they are not feeling the loss on an individual basis like the fan. They are feeling it as a collective loss from 13,000 individuals pooling money into one pile. Its an entire different context of financial hardship.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:25 PM
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15 games X $2/seat/game X 4 seats =$120
Yep, I am sure we'd all notice.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Go to www.collegerpi.com. Click on the schools menu at the top of the page. Look at Temple(their A10 years), VCU(their A10 years), and Xavier(their A10 years). Click on the RPI history link. The magic number/benchmark in terms of overall sos seems to be 60 or better. I want our overall sos to be 60 or better every single year. We are still not achieving that goal, we are consistently in the upper 60's or worse, we still need to improve the sos more.

I feel that those 3 schools represent the best sort of apples to apples comparison to us since they were/are in the A10.
So the answer to our problems is to just have successful programs re-join the A10 to pump up the RPI of the conference? Man, why didn't I think of that.

Hey guys, all we need is for Temple, _avier, and Butler to come back to the A10, then our SOS will improve.

Originally Posted by steve View Post
Just gotta win more games and/or hope the A10 can win more OOC games and up their RPI's. A combination brings UD into the top 35-40 yearly. And, imo, WSU is on the up and up with their new coach. And unless he decides to find greener pastures, WSU is going to be top 1-2 in the Horizon for years to come and win 23-24 games a year.
So let's schedule them for a H/H. Let's call it the Gem City Jam. And then in 3 years when their coach leaves for Cleveland State / South Carolina / Clemson and they suck again, we'll just cancel it. Right?

Right?

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
You really think that the vast majority of people are going to complain about a less than $2, one-time ticket price increase? I think hardly nobody would even notice.
Then it's irrational that the administration hasn't done it already, independent of the schedule.

Then they should raise it again, since no one will even notice.

And again.

By your logic, they could raise prices to an infinite level with no impact as long as they did it $2 per ticket at a time.

Why does beer cost $7 at the arena? Make it $9, no one will even notice. FREE MONEY!!

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Old 10-25-2018, 04:55 PM
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Chris, you keep citing the last few years non conference schedule strength. You were a part of that and I applaud you for the effort. My concern continues to be that model has been blown up and what has been done in the past won't work anymore.

You were atleast honest about the $ aspect. My counter argument is UD is enjoying the windfall from NCAA money for the next few years. Is that considered part of the budget? If it is, what happens when/if that $ goes away? UD got a larger windfall because they made the elite eight. That is hard to do consistently from an 11 seed. Maybe a few wins on the road helps move that seed line up to where sweet sixteens aren't always because we beat higher seeded teams. Maybe the U needs to cut in other places and invest in their cash cow a little instead of always milking from it?

St. Bonaventure barely made the tournament last year and the article that started all this discussion clearly stated that if they hadn't beaten Syracuse they probably don't make the tournament. They won a lot of games yet barely got in. That risk is real for UD. What happens if UD wins a lot of games and loses in the semi final of the A10 tournament and doesn't make the tournament again and again? The death spiral begins...less attractive recruiting begets fewer wins which begets a new coach which begets a reset. Rinse, repeat.
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Old 10-25-2018, 05:27 PM
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ud2 wouldn't mind an increase in ticket prices or fewer home games because he doesn't have season tickets and very rarely makes it to a game. I recall when he last came to a game he said it had been many years since he had been to one.
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Which teams are you gonna get a home/home series with? Start naming programs. Its not enough that we want to them; they have to want to play us.

Second, you're model would reduce the home schedule by 1 game. Unless you want the other 15 game ticket prices raised to counter the loss of a home game's revenue, UD will have to come up with the money elsewhere or do without. If they do without, they will be doing without:

13,000 tickets sold @$25 a piece = $325,000.
Concessions = $35,000
Misc: $10,000

So we're close to $400K. That's the entire budget (including coaches salaries) of one Olympic sport. Pick the one we drop - and we're not talking tennis or rowing because they ain't getting that kind of money to begin with.

But lets say we still did everything you're requesting and found the money to do it. Is all that effort worth improving our Non-Con SOS from #2 to #1?

The Power-5 schools dont want to play us. And scheduling is as much art as science. Suppose you schedule a tough home/home on December 15th. And then you have a 3-game Holiday tournament in Acapulco on December 20, 21, and 22. And now suppose you were lucky enough to find a Power-5 team or perennial NCAA team like Oregon for another home and home, but the deal is it has to start on the road. And the only time they want to play the game is between 12/15 and 12/19. So you're now saddled with asking yourself if you want your MBB team to:

Play a Top-10 team at home on 12/15.
Travel all the way across the country on about one day rest and then prepare for a game on...say...12/17. Then travel all the way back -- losing 3hrs from the time zone change in the process. Getting back late on the 18th. And then immediately pack bags and get on another plane to Mexico to arrive at midnight on the 18th or early morning of the 19th. Then prepare to play three games against NCAA at-large level teams in a row on the 20th, 21st, and 22nd.

That's complete suicide. Its not fair to the program. Its not fair to the players or coaches. As much as you're flattered Oregon agreed to play us, there's no other answer we can give them other than "sorry but its not going to work out." When the smoke clears, they are still student athletes. They need rest. You cant walk a team into an important 3-game Holiday tourney thats just been clobbered by two teams and jetted 6,000 miles round trip without any sleep and ask them to prepare (nevermind WIN) three more of those types of games. The chances that UD team -- or any team -- ends up 1-4 or 0-5 out of that mess is very doable and serves absolutely no purpose of helping UD's postseason resume.

You still have to win games. That's the bottom line. Name one season UD deserved an NCAA bid and didnt get one? I can think of any since Donoher left the bench. Even the year Chris Wright was injured, there was no assurance he would play in the NIT and we had too many losses for comfort anyway. So its not like the NCAA has shafted us. Ask St. Bonnie about what being shafted feels like. Perhaps our seeds have been tough draws, but those seeds were not reflections of bad scheduling. They were reflections of not winning enough games.

You're looking at this entire problem from the wrong end of the stick. Instead of changing the #2 schedule in the country to try to make it better, why not just win more games playing the #2 schedule in the country? Just. Win. More. Games.

Winning more games seems like the easiest part we can control because we dont need anyone's further permission, calendar, or flight schedule to make it happen. Instead of winning 23 games a year, why not just win 25 or 26? Problem solved.

Sure we can't do anything about the A10 schedule, but its been that way for two decades. Why get indigestion over it now -- when our non-con scheduling has actually gotten better and more effective to counter the A10's shortcomings?

You need the galactic stars to align to make a better schedule than we've put together in recent years. But it only takes more points on the scoreboard to win more games. Here's a deal: lets just win more games and if that doesn't solve the problem, then we can look into trying to better our #2 schedule. But lets give winning more games a scientific A/B testing opportunity first and see if it changes our lot in life. I have a suspicious feeling that winning more games will help our profile and our NCAA seed and make all our problems go away like Calgon.
We had a near-miss in 2015, IINM, we were the last team in, had to play Boise State at the arena. A better ooc slate very likely mitigates that. But, this isn't about making the NCAAT, this is about getting better/growing/getting a better seed/advancing more in the NCAAT. I won't argue that our schedule is keeping us out of the NCAAT.

From last year, how about we drop Tennessee Tech and Akron and add Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State. WKU and MTSU were #33 and #39 in the rpi. We gain a q1 road game and get a top 50/q2 home game. Both those teams are playing Rhode Island next year, so it seems that they'd be willing to play us.

I ran the rpi wizard, if we win both, that change results in:

Old rpi and sos: 146 and 66

New rpi and sos: 127 and 53

A 19 point rpi improvement.


I realize that as p5 opportunities dwindle, then the risk of scheduling a non-p5 h-and-h with a dud team increases, we just have to take some chances. A10 commish says: take some chances with scheduling and schedule aggressively.:


https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...kg104VsE2TZVA0

Other non-p5 teams: Old Dominion, Nevada, New Mexico State, Vermont, Northeastern, College of Charleston, Tulsa, Temple, Houston, Boise State, New Mexico, Buffalo, San Diego State, Northern Iowa, BYU, Belmont. Not all are perfect, but do some research and try to catch them when they are doing well.

As far as dates/times, VCU, Temple, and Xavier had/have all somehow made it work through the years. It can be done.

Last edited by ud2; 10-25-2018 at 07:04 PM..
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Old 10-26-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
We had a near-miss in 2015, IINM, we were the last team in, had to play Boise State at the arena. A better ooc slate very likely mitigates that. But, this isn't about making the NCAAT, this is about getting better/growing/getting a better seed/advancing more in the NCAAT. I won't argue that our schedule is keeping us out of the NCAAT.

From last year, how about we drop Tennessee Tech and Akron and add Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State. WKU and MTSU were #33 and #39 in the rpi. We gain a q1 road game and get a top 50/q2 home game. Both those teams are playing Rhode Island next year, so it seems that they'd be willing to play us.

I ran the rpi wizard, if we win both, that change results in:

Old rpi and sos: 146 and 66

New rpi and sos: 127 and 53

A 19 point rpi improvement.


I realize that as p5 opportunities dwindle, then the risk of scheduling a non-p5 h-and-h with a dud team increases, we just have to take some chances. A10 commish says: take some chances with scheduling and schedule aggressively.:


https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...kg104VsE2TZVA0

Other non-p5 teams: Old Dominion, Nevada, New Mexico State, Vermont, Northeastern, College of Charleston, Tulsa, Temple, Houston, Boise State, New Mexico, Buffalo, San Diego State, Northern Iowa, BYU, Belmont. Not all are perfect, but do some research and try to catch them when they are doing well.

As far as dates/times, VCU, Temple, and Xavier had/have all somehow made it work through the years. It can be done.
This is a ton of back and forth when, in reality, all you have to do is figure out how to win at LaSalle or UMass. That seems like a more realistic approach. You can't go calling out the old A10 Temple/Xavier models when old A10 Temple/Xavier were treating the A10 like their own personal playgrounds each year. That's how they got into the tournament and improved their standing amongst the NCAA elite.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
From last year, how about we drop Tennessee Tech and Akron and add Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State. WKU and MTSU were #33 and #39 in the rpi. We gain a q1 road game and get a top 50/q2 home game. Both those teams are playing Rhode Island next year, so it seems that they'd be willing to play us.

I ran the rpi wizard, if we win both, that change results in:

Old rpi and sos: 146 and 66

New rpi and sos: 127 and 53

A 19 point rpi improvement.
Akron 2015-2016: 26-8
Akron 2016-2017: 26-8
Akron 2017-2018: 14-18

MTS 2014-2015: 19-16
MTS 2015-2016: 24-9
MTS 2016-2017: 30-4
MTS 2017-2018: 24-7
(2018-2019 = first year head coach, preseason picked to finish 9th out of 14 teams behind Old Dominion, North Texas, UTSA, etc.)

Who should we add for the 2020-2021 season as a home (away?) game, and the 2021-2022 season as an away (home?) game who is non-P5, on their way to a multi-year upswing, won't have major defections of big name talent, and their coach will be consistent? Asking for a friend who does scheduling for an A10 university.

Oh, and could you tell me the price of gold in 2022 as well so I know if I should buy or short?
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