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  #1  
Old 12-09-2017, 05:18 PM
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Penn Thoughts

Way too much zone
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:21 PM
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Darrell Davis 19.3 PPG 5 this afternoon
Sam Jones 2.6 PPG 15 this afternoon

Nuff Said
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:27 PM
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Penn is well coached. Jordan Davis broke out today. Josh had a great game..
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:34 PM
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Usually, after a game it's to point to A, B, or C. This one.....I dunno.

DD didn't show up?
Crutcher seemed in a fog.
Kotas was nearly out for control for a while.
Trey Landers missing from the court? (relying on freshman in crunch time)
Sloppy passing.
At least CAG said it's on him......this time, I think it is.

Addition: We gave up 70, not enough experience on this team to overcome poor D.

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Old 12-09-2017, 05:39 PM
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Why didn't they feed the ball into Cunningham more?
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Darrell Davis 19.3 PPG 5 this afternoon
Sam Jones 2.6 PPG 15 this afternoon

Nuff Said
Sam Jones came into the game shooting 46% from 3. He improved that to 58% by the
end of the game. One would think that somebody would have noticed that he was one of two of their best 3 point shooters.

Penn came in shooting 33% from 3pt. That equates to around 7 makes. They made 13 = 18 points over the norm. Hot hot hot.

Darrell looked like he was trying to be the all-things assist man today. We need him to score.
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:55 PM
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Don't get to see them often, but...

Penn was hot....UD had never lost to an Ivy....maybe the Flyers just didn't have their heads in the game for that reason. I don't get to see them play, so I'm a poor judge...but what I saw certainly didn't impress me, especially when the chips were down in the final minutes.

In the post game conversation with analysts the Penn coach made remarks specifically about Ivy league teams that were a bit interesting. He didn't come right out and put it the way I'm about to...but essentially he said that kids that play for Ivies are more intelligent than those in other conferences (probably true)....which makes them very easy to coach. My wife, who has very little interest in BB, even picked up on that and remarked to the effect, "I've never heard a coach say anything quite like that".

(I think Harvard lost by only 7 at Kentucky about a week ago.)
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  #8  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:00 PM
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Slow starts doomed us today. 1st half and 2nd half both. Sluggish. Tentative. Different team than we saw Wednesday against Tenn Tech. CAG took the heat for it on the postgame show, but Bedell and Waleskowski said that was code for ďTheyíll have hard practicesĒ between now and next Saturday. This was a winnable game, but we just didnít get the job done.
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:01 PM
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My only reference is today, and they were definitely smarter than us.
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  #10  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:15 PM
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Went back to check the play-by-play, and we led for a whopping 115 seconds today. For the other 38 minutes and 5 seconds, we were either trailing or tied. Just a poor showing, all the way around.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:41 PM
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Someone posted a week or so ago that with so much inexperience on this team we need to be prepared to see two steps forward and one step backwards for most of the year. Today was a step or two backwards but I expect all involved to break down the video and get after it. I sure wish Svoboda could get hot offensively. Coming from overseas I expected him to be behind on defense, but I expected him to shoot better. I think it's a combination of a slump and the speed at this level.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:45 PM
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Not a knock. On the contraire, really. I was wrong about him when I said he was a bust, but Darrell isn't that go-to player in the lane. He's just not strong enough to be that guy. We have one, and he wears zero. AG needs to feed the post and work the ball back out for DD to be his most effective. Take the target off his back. If the target is placed on his back he'll be taken out by the opponent on a regular basis. But he's definitely more than the fringe player I thought he was. He's proven me wrong before but I just don't think he's the guy to drive the lane on a regular basis and be successful. I'm totally behind him and today's loss isn't on him. He was due to have an off game. His teammates need to pick him up. The target needs to be placed squarely on Josh Cunningham's back. He's our go-to guy.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Penn came in shooting 33% from 3pt. That equates to around 7 makes. They made 13 = 18 points over the norm. Hot hot hot.
Id contend they probably had not seen this many good looks before today, hence their lower season %.

Flyers scored 70pts today. Should be plenty to win at home vs any Ivy League team. Our defense was non-existent start to finish. Even when we made a run in the 2nd half, it was because Penn had 2 straight point blank layups that literally crawled off the rim. It wasnt because we slowed them down -- they just barfed bunnies.

Score should have been 70-60 Flyers, not 78-70 Penn. We miss two straight breakaway layups, Penn makes a 3 and a 2 on return trips down court. Nine point swing in 45 seconds. We turn ball over in backcourt on a pick-pocket....floater 2 seconds later for Penn deuce. Four point swing. DD travels in backcourt. Another swing.

Better team won. Better program didnt, but better team did. You let a team shoot .713% EFG and you really have no prayer. Its amazing we kept it as close as we did.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:22 PM
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Blistering!

Originally Posted by Chris R;524315[B
]...I'd contend they probably had not seen this many good looks before today, hence their lower season %.....[/B]
May be true.....but shooting 60% threes, 13 in all, is blistering. Penn played very well today....probably above their heads...and we didn't. Not all the Ivies are the same. As in most conferences there is a big difference from top to bottom. Penn, Harvard, Princeton are almost always near the top.
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:19 PM
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13-1 against the Ivy league now.
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Id contend they probably had not seen this many good looks before today, hence their lower season %.

Flyers scored 70pts today. Should be plenty to win at home vs any Ivy League team. Our defense was non-existent start to finish. Even when we made a run in the 2nd half, it was because Penn had 2 straight point blank layups that literally crawled off the rim. It wasnt because we slowed them down -- they just barfed bunnies.

Score should have been 70-60 Flyers, not 78-70 Penn. We miss two straight breakaway layups, Penn makes a 3 and a 2 on return trips down court. Nine point swing in 45 seconds. We turn ball over in backcourt on a pick-pocket....floater 2 seconds later for Penn deuce. Four point swing. DD travels in backcourt. Another swing.

Better team won. Better program didnt, but better team did. You let a team shoot .713% EFG and you really have no prayer. Its amazing we kept it as close as we did.
Chris, you are a stats guy. All the data says 3 point defense is marginally more impactful than FT defense — yes than FT defense which is a true stat. “Open looks,” “soft zome defense,” and “weak close outs” may impact an offensive’s team 3 point shooting marginally. But let’s not promote the world is flat thinking which is what 3 point shooting % defense is. Defenses can materially impact the number of 3s their opponents take, but only very marginally impact their % made; even with open looks.

The thread is correct, Dayton scored 1.04 points per possession versus Penn which is Dayton’s avesrage for the year and should be enough for a win versus Penn at home. But Dayton gave up 1.16 points per possession, way above the 1.00 points per possession season average. Dayton had a higher percentage of offensive rebounds, less turnovers, a better 2 point percentage, and made 7 more 2 point shots. Lost the FT battle, but inflated in the last minutes. Penn shot out of their mind from 3.

Last 40 games (this season and last season), Penn has shot over 40% from 3 in 6 games or 15% of games including over 50% in 2 games or 5% of games.

Penn likely loses if they shoot 45% from 3 which would be there 4th best shooting from 3 in the last 40 games.

Let’s not overreact to 3 point shooting by opponents. High variance game by game which has very little to do with Dayton’s defense.

https://kenpom.com/blog/defense-has-...-opponents-3p/

https://kenpom.com/blog/the-3point-line-is-a-lottery/

https://kenpom.com/blog/offense-vs-d...nt-percentage/

https://kenpom.com/blog/3point-defen...-opponents-3p/

https://kenpom.com/blog/offense-vs-d...oint-attempts/

Last edited by ruechalgrin; 12-09-2017 at 09:17 PM.. Reason: Added links
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:57 PM
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Our defense is a joke. 4 passes is all it takes to get an uncontested layup or 3.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Our defense is a joke. 4 passes is all it takes to get an uncontested layup or 3.
Uncontested lay-ups matter and agree troublesome as Penn shot 52% from 2. Defenses can massively impact 2 pint field goal %.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:12 PM
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The Flyers are more concerned with not fouling than playing defense. You can't play good defense by avoiding contact at all cost.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:15 PM
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13 point deficit at the free throw line. We only shot 5 FTs!!!
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Old 12-09-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by UD93 Steve View Post
13 point deficit at the free throw line. We only shot 5 FTs!!!
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Penn only had a lot at the end when we were fouling.
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Old 12-09-2017, 11:19 PM
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I don't know what to say about this game. Once again, a troubling trend reared its ugly head, as we got off to a tremendously slow start, got way behind, had a big run to catch up, got behind again, caught up and had multiple chances to take the lead but had bad plays twice in a row, then gave up several big shots to lower the boom on us.

Cunningham was a monster on the court. Penn had no answer, and yet too many times he never touched the ball. He could have had 30+ if we had kept feeding him the ball.

Jordan Davis had a decent offensive game. His defense seemed good at times but I can't say whether he was consistent or not.

DD had a terrible game. The cobwebs were visible between his ears tonight.

Kostas had a terrible game as well. Forced offense when it wasn't there and bad D. Plus the jawing with the flopper kid from Penn. Man, he should have gotten a technical for that, IMO if for nothing else than bad acting

Crosby scored but I would say he had a mixed game. Some success but some bone-headedness as well.

Svoboda continues to shoot poorly. Very disappointed, expected more.

No Pierce

Flyers probably win if X plays. He's a better defender and rebounder than Svoboda.

Crutcher did not have a good game at all. Looked out of sync.

Our overall D was poor, and we continue to get out-hustled on some rebounds and balls on the floor.

Only good thing I can say is we continue to not give up. But it sure would be nice to not fall so far behind and have to try and catch up. We could use those runs to build a nice lead instead.
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:00 AM
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DD didnít have an off night, he had a regular night. He makes no other person on this team better and every time he decides he needs to take it on his own we turn the ball over. Iím sick of hearing about how great he is as he shuts down any team approach we apparently have. His graduation will be an asset next year.
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:22 AM
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TXFlyerfan - Agree with most of what you said.

As to Svoboda - Probably feeds the post as well or better than anyone else. It would not surprise me if he had the best +/- of any Flyer today. Figgie-what say you? Of course, as you pointed out, he had his negatives as well.
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
As to Svoboda - Probably feeds the post as well or better than anyone else. It would not surprise me if he had the best +/- of any Flyer today. Figgie-what say you? Of course, as you pointed out, he had his negatives as well.
Svoboda and Jordan Davis had the best at +6, followed by Crosby at +4.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevinob15 View Post
DD didnít have an off night, he had a regular night. He makes no other person on this team better and every time he decides he needs to take it on his own we turn the ball over. Iím sick of hearing about how great he is as he shuts down any team approach we apparently have. His graduation will be an asset next year.
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Are you serious?? He had 4 assists, 3 turnovers. Our PGs had 3 asst and 5 TOs combined. Heís our best perimeter defender by far. He has consistently been able to manufacture points when our 1/2 court O is stagnant. I would hate to see our record without him!
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:18 AM
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Before game, I looked at Penn basketball website and saw that they play pretty good on the road. Then when we were down 12 points at start, I said this will be difficult. Opposing coaches now know that we come out of the gate like molasses in January. We need to start hard and fast and never let down during the game.

I liked when Crosby drove to the basket but his half court game as PG needs work. I hate seeing Crosby or DD racing down court in a one on three and trying to score. First time I really saw Kostas playing for a long time and am not that all impressed. He has a ton of talent but needs work. Maybe he reads press releases about himself and his brother and work on his own game. What was the temper issue particularly when he already had three fouls? I thought Penn's center goaded him.

Maybe I missed it but I think AG has to start getting angry and doing some yelling aduring breaks and showing he expects much more. Why is X on the bench? Is he injured or has AG put him in doghouse.

I think we have a good nucleus of kids and I expected that the time for trying combinations and lighting a fire for the start of the A-10 season was over. I thought we would have our starting five and first two alternates set for the start of the A-10 season. But on the basis of a loss to Penn at home, it does not look that way and I have doubts about the team mysteriously jelling and starting the A-10 season on fire.

The beginning of the A-10 conference season is a chance for a new start towards the goal of the conference championship. Flyers, please prove me wrong!!!
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:40 AM
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I believe the conference play will be very much like the OOC. .500 + or - a game, may improve slightly as the year goes on but we will probably not be going to any post season play beyond one, maybe two games in the A-10 tourney.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by UD93 Steve View Post
Are you serious?? He had 4 assists, 3 turnovers. Our PGs had 3 asst and 5 TOs combined. Heís our best perimeter defender by far. He has consistently been able to manufacture points when our 1/2 court O is stagnant. I would hate to see our record without him!
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Yes Iím serious. When he decides he wants to score he ignores everyone else and forces a shot. Youíd think the senior guard would be out there bring the team together but too often itís the Baby D show. Everyone on this board chastised Charles Cooke for doing similar things last year but this year everyone is praising DD. I just donít get it. Instead of manufacturing points when the offense is stagnant he should be a leader out there making sure the offense isnít stagnant. No one on this team (including AG right now) takes over that leadership role and holds guys accountable for the lack of effort and movement in the offensive half court. Iíve never been crazy about vocal leaders as I like active ones more but this team badly needs a strong voice out there to get things going.
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
Svoboda and Jordan Davis had the best at +6, followed by Crosby at +4.
Very interesting stats for this team and probably says a lot about the outcome.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
The Flyers are more concerned with not fouling than playing defense. You can't play good defense by avoiding contact at all cost.
I agree, but that contact better be with their chest while exhibiting some footwork as well. And not with arms flailing and extended and hands on the shooter.

We foul because we are out of position and arms are extended.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UD93 Steve View Post
13 point deficit at the free throw line. We only shot 5 FTs!!!
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Because you don't get to the line when the majority of time your bigs are on the wing.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Slow starts doomed us today. 1st half and 2nd half both. Sluggish. Tentative. Different team than we saw Wednesday against Tenn Tech. CAG took the heat for it on the postgame show, but Bedell and Waleskowski said that was code for ďTheyíll have hard practicesĒ between now and next Saturday. This was a winnable games me, but we just didnít get the job done.
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At some point, AG has to take some blame for the slow starts.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
At some point, AG has to take some blame for the slow starts.
You're about to get schooled by the peanut gallery..
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
At some point, AG has to take some blame for the slow starts.
If you listen to the post game show on WHIO you'd know that AG is taking the blame for everything.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:00 PM
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AG is starting a guy who played like 20 mins last year, done absolutely nothing, why the freshman phenom, instant offense just sits on the pine for the first 5 mins of every game, but don't blame AG, omg he is a graduate of UD we can't blame him
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If you listen to the post game show on WHIO you'd know that AG is taking the blame for everything.
Well, I guess that makes everything okay then. As long as AG stays humble and takes responsibility for all 150 losses in the next 10 years, everything is okay with the posters here.

If only Jim O'Brien was a UD alumni, we would never have heard of Oliver Purnell.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Well, I guess that makes everything okay then.
You words...not mine. Not anyone elses, either. Except you.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If you listen to the post game show on WHIO you'd know that AG is taking the blame for everything.
Obviously you didn't believe him or you'd have listed coaching in the poll as the chief reason for the loss
I think character is Grant's strongest asset, but I'm not sure it's a 'redeemable quality' in the coaching business.
How many times have we heard how nice guys finish last. I was fairly sure, because I consider myself a good judge of character, that Archie was a cunning, swindler of a coach. His teams were a reflection of that but they were always focused on basketball.
I don't care about nobility on the court. I want a winner. A team totally. focused. on basketball. We can be respectful in the handshake line.
I'll try to be patient but I want to see building blocks. If I don't then I'll know he's not got the level of attention from his players that it takes to win.
Kostas's behavior was not only self-centered it was detrimental to the winning attitude that has been a trait of the program ..for some time. It was not a display of toughness, like he might believe.
It was a turning point imo, and a sign of weakness. But more importantly it took the focus off basketball. You make a team pay for trash-talk, you don't reward them for it.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer68 View Post
First time I really saw Kostas playing for a long time and am not that all impressed. He has a ton of talent but needs work. Maybe he reads press releases about himself and his brother and work on his own game. What was the temper issue particularly when he already had three fouls? I thought Penn's center goaded him.
Couldn't agree more. In addition to press clippings I think Giannis is in his ear and perhaps that's the voice in his head when he's on the court vs AG's. Yes he's young, but after spending a year with a group of seniors who rarely, if ever, let emotions get the best of them, and the fact that he's had international experience, I expected more maturity out of Kostas. For the time being, opponents have the recipe for taking him out of the game...mentally and with foul trouble.

Last edited by Radar; 12-11-2017 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:09 AM
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Smitty10 and udscott, you guys need some different hobbies. Or some blood pressure meds. Maybe both, I don't know you.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Couldn't agree more. In addition to press clippings I think Giannis is in his ear and perhaps that's the voice in his head when he's the court vs AG's. Yes he's young, but after spending a year with a group of seniors who rarely, if ever, let emotions get the best of them, and the fact that he's had international experience, I expected more maturity out of Kostas. For the time being, opponents have the recipe for taking him out of the game...mentally and with foul trouble.
This is some pretty crap speculation. Kostas looks like a guy who broke his leg and didn't play for 3 months. He looks like a guy who is a raw project, which is what we signed up for. There is a reason the big boys weren't after him.

Have we learned nothing from Frank Iguodala about what being a really good player's brother means? It means absolutely nothing in terms of on the floor performance.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:17 AM
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Funny several on the Indiana boards already on Archie,saying team is unprepared and plays soft. The ones that know the game are aware of the players and the situation Crean left him.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
This is some pretty crap speculation. Kostas looks like a guy who broke his leg and didn't play for 3 months. He looks like a guy who is a raw project, which is what we signed up for. There is a reason the big boys weren't after him.

Have we learned nothing from Frank Iguodala about what being a really good player's brother means? It means absolutely nothing in terms of on the floor performance.
Raw project? No doubt. Raw maturity (so far) as well.

As for no big boys after him...I guess you don't consider Kansas, Maryland, Minnesota, and Texas big boys.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Raw project? No doubt. Raw maturity (so far) as well.

As for no big boys after him...I guess you don't consider Kansas, Maryland, Minnesota, and Texas big boys.
Show me where those teams actually "offered" him. Big difference between looking at a player and offering him...
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:00 AM
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As is typical with some on this board, you're changing the conversation. For a fact (or as factual as Scout.com can be) those schools were "recruiting" him. Recruiting, after, offer...he was anywhere from 27th to 54th at his position, in his class, depending on who you believe. But it's ok to miss my "opinion" (99.9% of message boards)...he needs to grow (up) in many areas. Peace out!
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:17 AM
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As some fail to understand, recruiting a player is NOT actually offering that player a scholarship in many many cases. Hundreds and hundreds of players get sent letters, go to camps, talk to HC's/Asst. coaches at schools, etc. but it absolutely does NOT mean they get offered. In many cases, existing offers to plan "A" or "B" have to fall off their board for "C" player to get offered.

It's really NOT that difficult to understand both what I said AND asking for proof that "said" player had those as legit. offers..
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
As is typical with some on this board, you're changing the conversation. For a fact (or as factual as Scout.com can be) those schools were "recruiting" him. Recruiting, after, offer...he was anywhere from 27th to 54th at his position, in his class, depending on who you believe. But it's ok to miss my "opinion" (99.9% of message boards)...he needs to grow (up) in many areas. Peace out!
I agree! All things being considered, I am puzzled why he is not further along! He had a whole year to practice with and see and follow the examples of four of the best seniors we have ever had. He had the international experience prior to that and his brother even acknowledges that he is a better shooter than he is! Radar, you hit the nail right on the head when you said for the time being our opponents have the recipe for taking him out of the game! He seems to be working on cutting down his penchant for getting in foul trouble but has a long way to go to mature enough to sharpen his offensive skills.

I forgot which one of the Flyers big men Don Donoher worked with in the off season one year but I remember there was a dramatic improvement! I wonder if that would work again?
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer View Post
I agree! All things being considered, I am puzzled why he is not further along! He had a whole year to practice with and see and follow the examples of four of the best seniors we have ever had. He had the international experience prior to that and his brother even acknowledges that he is a better shooter than he is! Radar, you hit the nail right on the head when you said for the time being our opponents have the recipe for taking him out of the game! He seems to be working on cutting down his penchant for getting in foul trouble but has a long way to go to mature enough to sharpen his offensive skills.

I forgot which one of the Flyers big men Don Donoher worked with in the off season one year but I remember there was a dramatic improvement! I wonder if that would work again?
The biggest improvement I'd ever seen out of a player was George Janky. Is that who you're referring to?
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
The biggest improvement I'd ever seen out of a player was George Janky. Is that who you're referring to?
No, I just remembered it was Yuanta Holland (1998-2002)! He played on the same teams with Mark Ashman and Tony Stanley and doubled his point average and rebound average between his sophomore and junior years after working with Don Donoher.
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Raw project? No doubt. Raw maturity (so far) as well.

As for no big boys after him...I guess you don't consider Kansas, Maryland, Minnesota, and Texas big boys.
I would revise my statement to say none "offered" him. Because they didn't. I think Iowa State was his "best" offer.
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