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  #1  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:10 AM
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Questions regarding officiating

Ok, referees and rule-knowers out there, please educate me more.

1. Josh Cunningham is under the basket, hands straight up (at least from the 300 seats behind UD bench), and the guy jumps into him and Josh doesn't leave his feet. Josh ends up on the floor 5 feet away on his can, and they give Josh the blocking foul. Why was this a no call? It wasn't a charge because it was in the restricted circle, but I couldn't tell why it was a blocking fall. Or was it a "he wasn't straight up with his hands"?

2. Tenn Tech Offensive foul with foul shots for UD. What is the rule on offensive fouls getting foul shots. We were probably in double bonus at the time, and the individual committing the foul had already ditched the ball away before he ran Kostas over. I didn't think the team that was fouled got shots in that case. They had all setup to in bounds when ref from the other end of the court says, 'Hold on! They shoot shots!'. Didn't understand that.

3. Would you have just accidentally stood in front of the ball at 1.4 seconds when Trey shouldn't have rolled the ball to the ref so that time would just run off? Or just not blow the whistle? (Though, one of the other refs might have also blew the whistle.) Definately Trey's fault, but when all players are basically in the hand shake line, wondering if you'd accidentally become part of the "court". Is 1.4 versus 0.3 seconds different?
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:16 AM
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1. This was right in front of me and I didn't see his feet...but...he appeared to have made it to the spot...straight up...prior to the offensive player leaving his feet.

Not to mention...the backside official blew the whistle and not the official that was literally right in front of the play. I scratched my head at this one.

If I am not mistaken, which I probably am regarding the "new" circle...if he didn't establish the position outside of the circle it is a block regardless. Basically, even if you get set inside the circle with 3 seconds to spare it is a block. In this case, I thought he made it outside the circle. If he didn't, that is what the other official saw that the baseline official missed.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:22 AM
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I wasn't there and didn't see it and although I have opinions on how things were described by Sir Figgie, I can't comment without seeing it.

I do agree with #3...as a ref, I either get in the way of the ball or have a delayed whistle timed perfectly with the horn.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:23 AM
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Not a ref, but somewhat familiar with rules. Can offer “dime store” insights on 2 & 3.

2. I think there’s a difference in whether or not this is considered a “player control” foul. IIRC, a player control foul does not result in shots for the other team. But if the officials rule that the foul is not a player control foul, the regular “bonus/double bonus” rules apply.

3. I think the official is required to try to stay out of the path of both the ball and the players while doing his/her job. So, when Trey bounce-passed the ball to the ref at the end, the ref was bound by the rules of his job to get out of the way. That one is on Trey.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:24 AM
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On the topic of JC being inside the circle, I don't believe the rule is that no contact may be made. It just means he can't get the charge. Why don't more players learn from one of my most hated players of all time, Bill Lambier? If you think you're inside the circle JUST DON'T FALL DOWN. The ref feels compelled to blow the whistle if you fall down (sorry rollo, it's true). Stand straight up and let the guy jump into you, but hold firm. It's likely to be a play-on situation.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:44 AM
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#2 The TV guys explained straight from the ref, that the ball was tipped by a UD player prior to the charge. The new rule this year is that is a change of possesion, so shots.

#3 The referee is part of the court, so if the ball hits him it is in play. The referees will always avoid contact with the ball when it is in play. Learning experience for our guys. Time on the clock should never affect a call, unless it is a specific rule exception.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
The ref feels compelled to blow the whistle if you fall down (sorry rollo, it's true).
When I first started reffing in '92-93, we were told in classes that if there was a collision (block/charge) to call something every time! Right or wrong, just call something.

Somewhere between then and now, flopping became a strategy that coaches taught their players. To address this, one of the more important pre-game discussions most competent officials have together is the 'if someone goes down, know how they got there'...meaning don't call a flop. If you pay attention, you wouldn't believe the number of so-called 'charges' that are flops. I bet >50% of defenders start falling before getting touched...which only gives the ref the power to ignore what would have been a charge or make it a 'block' since the falling defender is not in a legal guarding position.

Last month I had a kid flop during a scrimmage and the player driving to the basket pulled up 5' from him...my partner 'T' him up for faking/flopping a charge! It was awesome! You'll never see that in a real game, but wouldn't it be nice?!
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Last edited by rollo; 12-07-2017 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:45 AM
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3) Innocent mistake by Trey, but what a great time to learn from it. I've seen players roll it to the other end which ate up 2 seconds. Or throw it straight up. Same result.
I once handed the ball to some jackball opponent from Jefferson while under our bucket with a couple seconds left. Most fans got a chuckle, except my coach. Got benched to start the next game. Lesson learned.

Better yet, just hold the dang thing for another 1.3 and walk off with class.

Last edited by San Diego Flyer; 12-07-2017 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:06 AM
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That was dumb on Trey's part. He glared at the ref as if the ref told him to give him the ball. No way ref could have kept the ball from going out of bounds before the clock expired. He waited to blow the whistle.

A couple of times, The Tenn Tech players inbounding the ball crossed the baseline or did not get completely out of bounds before throwing the ball in. I was surprised that was not called. Chris Wright had that called on him once during his UD career.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
A couple of times, The Tenn Tech players inbounding the ball crossed the baseline or did not get completely out of bounds before throwing the ball in. I was surprised that was not called. Chris Wright had that called on him once during his UD career.
The travel on TT on the baseline was a good call. Guy slid 10 feet from his spot. That needs to be called more often.

Agree...the inbounds are half assed 50% of the time after a made bucket.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
The travel on TT on the baseline was a good call. Guy slid 10 feet from his spot. That needs to be called more often.
I know you know this shocka, but sliding isn't traveling. Rolling after a slide is traveling because your butt becomes your pivot 'foot' so as you change pivot cheeks you may as well be changing pivot feet.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I know you know this shocka, but sliding isn't traveling. Rolling after a slide is traveling because your butt becomes your pivot 'foot' so as you change pivot cheeks you may as well be changing pivot feet.
Wasn't that the call against Svoboda in the Miss St game?
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I once handed the ball to some jackball opponent from Jefferson while under our bucket with a couple seconds left. Most fans got a chuckle, except my coach. Got benched to start the next game. Lesson learned.
Once we were winning by 2 with about 2 seconds left. We got the ball on a turnover 80 feet from the other team's basket. Our coach called a TO to draw up a complex play to get the ball inbounds. I dutifully listened.

The ref handed me the ball and I promptly handed it to the guy jumping around in front of me. He was like a dog that caught his first cat. He turned and threw a baseball pass that came up about 20 feet short of the rim.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:30 PM
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From the NCAA rules

A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in
the Restricted Area for the purposes of drawing a player control foul/charge on
a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has
released the ball for a pass or try for goal. When illegal contact occurs within this
Restricted Area, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact
is flagrant. (Exception: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural
extended knee or wards off with the arm.)
This restriction shall not prohibit a defender, located within the restricted area, from
attempting to block a shot
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
From the NCAA rules

A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in
the Restricted Area for the purposes of drawing a player control foul/charge on
a player who is in control of the ball
(i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has
released the ball for a pass or try for goal. When illegal contact occurs within this
Restricted Area, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact
is flagrant. (Exception: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural
extended knee or wards off with the arm.)
This restriction shall not prohibit a defender, located within the restricted area, from
attempting to block a shot
So don't try to draw a charge. . .
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I know you know this shocka, but sliding isn't traveling. Rolling after a slide is traveling because your butt becomes your pivot 'foot' so as you change pivot cheeks you may as well be changing pivot feet.
It was a travel called on a inbound spot. Player didn't have the baseline to run and moved from the spot to inbound the ball.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
From the NCAA rules

A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in
the Restricted Area for the purposes of drawing a player control foul/charge on
a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has
released the ball for a pass or try for goal. When illegal contact occurs within this
Restricted Area, such contact shall be called a blocking foul, unless the contact
is flagrant. (Exception: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural
extended knee or wards off with the arm.)
This restriction shall not prohibit a defender, located within the restricted area, from
attempting to block a shot
That almost sounds as bad as reading rules that talk about "player advantage".
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:05 PM
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For those of you who may be thinking about becoming an official but really don't like reading rulebooks, here's what I dealt with last night during a GWOC freshman/jv doubleheader:

1st Qtr:

1 minute into the game a visiting player tells my partner to 'blow your f**@%ng whistle' after a bump. He makes a mental note of her number. 2 min later, during a loose ball with girls diving everywhere, the same visiting player intentionally kicks home player in the mouth: (intentional foul)

Visiting coach adamantly and arguing that there was nothing wrong or hurtful with the kick: (technical)

2nd Qtr:

Visiting Varsity coach walking on floor to tell freshman coach not to play 2 kids (should be automatic 'T' but with all the chaos a polite discussion was had)

Visiting coach insisting that we end the 1st half with 19.5 seconds left because he was benching 2 players: (I don't have that authority so we finished the half playing 5-on-3)

3rd Qtr:

Now playing 5-on-5!!!

Visiting player walks out of time-out with blood soaking her jersey, bends over and spits out what appear to be teeth (was just a flesh wound) and proceeds to hack, cough and spit out blood, flesh and lunch onto the court: (injured player, call the janitor who took all day to get there...meanwhile trainers and coaches worked to get the girl off the court)

Coaches ask the refs if they can do a running clock to speed things up: (Again, I don't have that authority but told them I wouldn't look at the clock the rest of the game)

4th Qtr:

Home team backed off and the clock ran smoothly except for FTs.

JV Game:

Prior to tipoff, I ask the scorekeeper if all the numbers and players match up properly. She reviews the books and gives me a thumbs up!

1st Qtr: Home coach, a little bit too high strung, is 10 feet onto the court screaming at his team to hustle. I remind him to stay in the coaching box and he tells me 'I'm coaching!' to which I say 'then get in the box!' and make a mental note to 'T' him up the next time he's on the court 'coaching'.

2nd Qtr:

Scorekeeper gives me a triple horn and calls me to the table. She tells me the home team has wrong names and numbers listed in the book and wants to know what to do.

I tell her it's 1 Administrative Technical on the JV coach and all errors can be corrected. Also said to the Adm Tech counts as a team foul...After the Technical FTs, I tell her it's a throw-in at midcourt. She disagree and says it's 'point of interruption'. I disagree and she's so sure she's right that a varsity official in the stands is consulted...and the ball is inbounded at midcourt. Half ends....WHEW! Not really.

Just before starting the 3rd qtr, I'm now told that the Adm Tech, because it was a team foul, put the team into the 1-and-1 bonus and we should have had a 1-and 1...so what should we do? Shoot the 1-and-1? or ignore the Rule. At this point I'm just hoping to get home by midnight and declare that this 'isn't a correctable error' and we're just starting the 2nd half...

3rd Qtr: 2 girls, hustling all game, run into each other playing defense, knocking one down and out! I mean she's gone. I immediately stop play and call out the coach and trainer. 10 min later she wobbles - with help - of the court. Concussion protocol??? Do I even ask?? Or wait to be told?? If I'm told, there are reports to fill out...after discussing situation with parter and varsity officials, we decide to wait for them to approach us and will do paperwork if and only if told the player was concussed...

4th Qtr: Teams back off and game ends.

So....who wants my job???

UGH!!!
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
For those of you who may be thinking about becoming an official but really don't like reading rulebooks, here's what I dealt with last night during a GWOC freshman/jv doubleheader:
My guess is you were in a warm and cheerful south suburb for last nights back yard brawl.

I witnessed a player last night in a JV game make contact with the official in an effort to demonstrate the call the official did not make. No T (or comment best I could tell from the official who seemed to be shocked at what happened) and no discipline from the coach who was looking right at her.
Second time this year in only 3 games for the "future of the program" to throw a fit during the game. Wish I was the coach, AD, official, or parent when this happened!

The BS I have witnessed in youth basketball and on the AAU circuit is slowly ruining the game for me, sadly.........
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post

So....who wants my job???

UGH!!!
No way.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:01 PM
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I'm wondering why the girl who told the ref to "blow your f**@%ing whistle" didn't get a "T." I would have T'd her up in a nano-second.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:33 PM
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Holy moly!

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm wondering why the girl who told the ref to "blow your f**@%ing whistle" didn't get a "T." I would have T'd her up in a nano-second.
And it was a girl that said....f**@%ng...and in the first minute of play? What would she be like during heated play?
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm wondering why the girl who told the ref to "blow your f**@%ing whistle" didn't get a "T." I would have T'd her up in a nano-second.
It caught him completely off guard...sometimes you don't expect things to happen so when they do, you're so shocked you freeze. And when you deal with certain schools, you never, ever, ever know what may happen next.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
And it was a girl that said....f**@%ng...and in the first minute of play? What would she be like during heated play?
It was heated play from the opening tip.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:51 AM
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FWIW, I reffed a game last night in the middle of Miami Co farm country and the 2 problems I had were (1) finding the HS! and (2) locating a pen to sign the check/paperwork. Other than that I had 2 well coached teams who played hard, clean and respectfully...and the scorekeeper provide all the refs with Swedish Fish! That's the kind of royal hospitality I expect!
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm wondering why the girl who told the ref to "blow your f**@%ing whistle" didn't get a "T." I would have T'd her up in a nano-second.
I will say that back in the day team captains got away with a lot more than the average player. Not saying we would get away with murder, but you were given a little longer leash with the officials.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:55 AM
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I used to ref boys and girls. No doubt the girls were more mouthy by a long shot.
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