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  #1  
Old 07-17-2019, 12:24 PM
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Independent/ MCC Days

This era was before time as a fan and I'm curious what the consensus on rivalries were back in those days

Were DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame true rivals or was this more that they were peer Catholic schools (I realize Notre Dame is considered above UD)

Was Evansville considered a rival?

Was the Xavier rivalry less intense before the 90s when Xavier wasn't as good?

To narrow down who were UD's pre A10 rivals?
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
This era was before time as a fan and I'm curious what the consensus on rivalries were back in those days

Were DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame true rivals or was this more that they were peer Catholic schools (I realize Notre Dame is considered above UD)

Was Evansville considered a rival?

Was the Xavier rivalry less intense before the 90s when Xavier wasn't as good?

To narrow down who were UD's pre A10 rivals?
I think the 3 Catholic schools were rivals, and while independent we played them twice each year. There was a lull in the intensity of the Xavier for a period of the 70's and early 80's. Other pre A10 and pre MCC rivals: Miami, UC, Louisville.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:48 PM
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Evansville was a rival and a bigger deal than makes sense to me these many years later.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:11 PM
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The Purple Aces were part of the Midwest Collegiate Conference (MCC) and had some pretty good teams in that era. One member of the Purple Aces, who later transferred to the University of Xavier at Norwood, was no less than Chris Mack, who became forever hated by Flyer fans for throwing an in-bounds pass very hard directly into Wes Coffee's head. Flyer fans never forgot that. But going back to the MCC, many thought that league had the potential to turn into a league similar to the Big East, but it never transpired. One reason it did not is it had a few very weak teams in it...unfortunately, one of those weak teams was the Flyers. That was the Jim O'Brien era and boy, was that a pitiful period, that quite frankly weakened the Flyers even to this day. I remember sitting in the Arena with a crowd of about 7,000 watching the University of Missouri - Kansas City pummel the Flyers. Brother Fitz was sitting in the stands nearly alone with that "oh crap" look on his face. In many respects, the Flyers have never recovered from that five years of O'Brien.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:19 PM
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Well, I can take you as far back as 1968 as that's when I was following them. At that point in time the two opponents that most excited me(and I'm assuming much of the fanbase) were Louisville and Cincinnati. Miami probably came in a distant 3rd. Xavier and Depaul were 4 games that we relaxed and watched the Flyers decimate from start to finish. Western Ky was always a great game too. Then Louisville and Cincinnati stopped scheduling us every season and that's when the Notre Dame thing took off.

The Flyers slowly(quickly when I started following them) falling from elite winning program to mediocre to good to very good depending on the season. Depaul made an epic rise and they became a rival in the sense they were so good, we hoped to beat them rather than expected to. Xavier followed suit in a slower more methodical way.

Basically, Dayton refusing to go to a conference in the 70s and 80s was a critical mistake that they will never be fully recovered from. If this program had made the correct critical moves back then, I still believe they would have kept up with Xavier and probably been the better of the two most years.

Ironically IMO, the industry that the Dayton Flyers are named after, also had a hand in changing the college basketball landscape to UD's detriment. Back in the 50s and 60s, it was an advantage to have some many great programs within your region and was in everybody's best interest that each other succeed. Once it became cheaper and more convenient to fly, the opposite was true. Other programs near you are business competitors or pests that steal your recruits and your national press.

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Old 07-17-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Well, I can take you as far back as 1968 as that's when I was following them. At that point in time the two opponents that most excited me(and I'm assuming much of the fanbase) were Louisville and Cincinnati. Miami probably came in a distant 3rd. Xavier and Depaul were 4 games that we relaxed and watched the Flyers decimate from start to finish. Western Ky was always a great game too. Then Louisville and Cincinnati stopped scheduling us every season and that's when the Notre Dame thing took off.

The Flyers slowly(quickly when I started following them) falling from elite winning program to mediocre to good to very good depending on the season. Depaul made an epic rise and they became a rival in the sense they were so good, we hoped to beat them rather than expected to. Xavier followed suit in a slower more methodical way.

Basically, Dayton refusing to go to a conference in the 70s and 80s was a critical mistake that they will never be fully recovered from. If this program had made the correct critical moves back then, I still believe they would have kept up with Xavier and probably been the better of the two most years.

Ironically IMO, the industry that the Dayton Flyers are named after, also had a hand in changing the college basketball landscape to UD's detriment. Back in the 50s and 60s, it was an advantage to have some many great programs within your region and was in everybody's best interest that each other succeed. Once it became cheaper and more convenient to fly, the opposite was true. Other programs near you are business competitors or pests that steal your recruits and your national press.
Outstanding comment, Smitty. I liken it to a company with a great product line but they refuse to upgrade to a new product as it would cannibalize the current one. The Flyers had a very comfortable position in the 70s - new first class arena, great history, and a good pipeline to players from Dayton, Detroit, and Chicago. Many great NCAA games occurred in the Flyer venue. Unfortunately, the athletics leadership failed to see the world was changing and the larger schools were getting more players and more attention from the national media. The Flyers missed the boat and we have been playing catch-up ever since. That is why the upcoming season is so critical, as we may be at a tipping point for the program.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:50 PM
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Was there animosity between Jim Crews and Donoher?
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:11 PM
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not that I can remember
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
I think the 3 Catholic schools were rivals, and while independent we played them twice each year. There was a lull in the intensity of the Xavier for a period of the 70's and early 80's. Other pre A10 and pre MCC rivals: Miami, UC, Louisville.
Depaul yes, we played many years home and away and a few years while in the MCC. Notre Dame was one game a year for most of the 70s and 80s and again we played twice a few times when we were in the MCC. Marquette was never a regular on our schedule that I remembered until again, those few years with the MCC.
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Old 07-17-2019, 05:44 PM
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Agree with most of the posts above. I was just a kid in the 1980s, but I barely remember even noticing Xavier on the schedule. I actually used to get them mixed up with Miami [OH] because, back then, it seems like XU was sometimes listed as Xavier [OH]. Thus, I just thought they were more like a smaller Ohio regional “rival” like Miami or Toledo.

I considered our “national” rivals as DePaul, Marquette, and ND, and I do remember Evansville becoming almost like a rival in the late 80s/early 90s.
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
The Purple Aces were part of the Midwest Collegiate Conference (MCC) and had some pretty good teams in that era. One member of the Purple Aces, who later transferred to the University of Xavier at Norwood, was no less than Chris Mack, who became forever hated by Flyer fans for throwing an in-bounds pass very hard directly into Wes Coffee's head. Flyer fans never forgot that. But going back to the MCC, many thought that league had the potential to turn into a league similar to the Big East, but it never transpired. One reason it did not is it had a few very weak teams in it...unfortunately, one of those weak teams was the Flyers. That was the Jim O'Brien era and boy, was that a pitiful period, that quite frankly weakened the Flyers even to this day. I remember sitting in the Arena with a crowd of about 7,000 watching the University of Missouri - Kansas City pummel the Flyers. Brother Fitz was sitting in the stands nearly alone with that "oh crap" look on his face. In many respects, the Flyers have never recovered from that five years of O'Brien.
Wasn't the league where JOB and the Flyers tanked called the Great Midwest (we left the MCC to join it)? Those Flyer teams were awful.
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:13 PM
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Was Loyola anything or just there like Duquesne today?
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:59 PM
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Duquesne

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Was Loyola anything or just there like Duquesne today?
In the Blackburn era Duquesne was a major rival and among the top programs nationally. And our rivalry with Louisville was as good as it gets.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:11 PM
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Duquesne was ranked #1 in the country when UD beat them in 53-54 at the Fieldhouse.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Was Loyola anything or just there like Duquesne today?
Loyola won the 1963 NCAA championship. They had a 6'2" player named Jerry Harkness who led the team in virtually every category. Harkness went on to play with the NY Knicks and the Indiana Pacers of the old ABA. He had a fade-away jump shot that no one could stop.

Duquesne was a powerhouse in the same era. They had a 5'9" guard out of Farrel, PA named Willie Somerset. Willie is considered the best Dukes player of any era. He averaged 22 points a game and once scored 47 points against Xavier. He had a shot that you never see in today's game. It was a "behind the head" shot that no one could block. His shot was so admired by young Flyer fans in the Dayton area (who watched him decimate the Flyers of that era) that many began to imitate his shot...some very effectively. One young player in my neighborhood imitated his shot and he was one of the best players at his high school. Somerset was not only recognized as a great player; he was an outstanding person and was named an "Outstanding Young Man of America" in 1968. He had a successful career in the old ABA and later on went on to become a pharmacist.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Was there animosity between Jim Crews and Donoher?
The Chris Mack/Wes Coffee incident happened during the JOB days. It would NEVER have happened if Mick was on the Flyer bench as Crews played for, and coached for, Bob Knight and has way too much respect for Donoher to have allowed that stunt. Recall, Mack didn't do it just once, he did it twice (threw inbounds between the eyes). It's an event that's been revisited many times with Mack waffling between "coach told me to do it" and "there was no intent."
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Was Loyola anything or just there like Duquesne today?
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:17 AM
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To me the rivals in the 70's were Notre Dame, Notre Dame, and Notre Dame. That was the only team where one couldn't find toilet paper on campus leading up to the game, because it all got thrown onto the court after the first basket. Great times!


Currently a problem with the program is the lack of a true rival that we can hate.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
The Chris Mack/Wes Coffee incident happened during the JOB days. It would NEVER have happened if Mick was on the Flyer bench as Crews played for, and coached for, Bob Knight and has way too much respect for Donoher to have allowed that stunt. Recall, Mack didn't do it just once, he did it twice (threw inbounds between the eyes). It's an event that's been revisited many times with Mack waffling between "coach told me to do it" and "there was no intent."
If you consider this incident and also how Mack conducts himself as coach, it all makes perfect sense. Crews knew he had the right guy. Mack was just as much of a dbag as a player and he is coach.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:55 AM
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Odds & ends...

- I seem to recall the Wes Coffee incident occurred in early 1989, the last year Donoher coached, but it may have been 1990, the first year JOB coached. When Mack transferred to X after the 1990 season, he was booed heavily in his first appearance as a Muskie at the Arena. Flyer fans have long memories.

- UD, DePaul, Notre Dame, and Marquette scheduling alliance began in 1983 and continued through the end of the decade until UD and later Marquette joined the MCC. During that time, the four teams played a round robin home-home schedule. There was talk that all four would eventually join the MCC, but DePaul and Notre Dame never did. After the 1990-91 season, Marquette left and joined DePaul in the new Great Midwest conference; Dayton would join them two years later. After the GMW breakup, several of the teams were contractually obligated to play Dayton home-home for several years. Marquette was one of these (UC too and maybe DePaul). I believe we pasted the Golden Chickens in Milwaukee in the last contractually obligated game.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...229-story.html

- UD and Michigan had a multi-year home-home series in the late 70s-early 80s. Wasn’t much of a rivalry, though, UD went 0-12.

- Although the UD-X series is the longest series in UD history, it was a footnote through the 70s & 80s. It only took on relevance after Pete Gillen got them rolling and we joined them in the MCC. In essence, they leveraged our standing at the time as a successful Catholic Independent (1967 NCAA runner up, 1984 Elite 8) by aligning with us and achieving parity.

- While I hesitate to view this as a make or break season, we have completely squandered that aforementioned standing as a premier Catholic basketball power. We are viewed, for better or worse, in the same light as Duquesne, LaSalle, and Loyola—Catholic schools who achieved great status several generations ago, but who are largely irrelevant now. Think about how the suggestion that we schedule home-home with Loyola after their Final 4 run was received by most on this board. That is how WE are viewed to the current basketball powers, regardless of our history and what we did 2013-2017. We have got to get the train going again with consistent success. We’re already functionally behind VCU and Davidson in National perception. While this year (and next) cannot completely erase that perception, it (they) can begin the process.

Let’s play the hand we've been dealt (no P5 teams at home, traditional rivals ducking us, no NBE invite) and win where we need to. To paraphrase Senator John Blutarsky, “Rams—DEAD, Wildcats—DEAD, Billikens—DEAD, Niedermeyer—...”

Who’s with me?
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:30 AM
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5 teams were pretty intense rivalries at different stretches through the 50's and 60's (numbers through 2005). Total games below.

Xavier = 79-59 = 138 games.
Miami = 63-61 = 124 games
Cincy = 30-59 = 89 games
Louisville 25-39 = 64 games
Duquesne 40-16 = 56 games

My era was '61 to '65 and any one of the above 5 could really draw a crowd. But I would have to say Miami became a hate/hate relationship over the long haul until the more recent Xavier contests. Other intense games in those periods ebb and flowed with the arrival and departure of some individual stars at those schools in 1950 to 1970. And there were lots of them considering Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul, Bowling Green (Nate Thurmond, Butch Komives), Eastern Kentucky. Because we were an independent, we could pick and choose some good opponents for home games for a short series.
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.

You're forgetting the guy with three first names - Alfredrick Hughes (1981-1985).
Al, Fred, and Rick combined to be Loyola's all time leading scorer (2914 points) and the no. 14 pick in the 1985 NCAA draft (San Antonio), Hughes was three time MCC Player of the Year, led the Ramblers to the NCAA tournament in 1985, and was also named third team All-American that year. His 2914 career points put him fifth all-time when he graduated Loyola, and is still good for 13th today.

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Old 07-18-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
You're forgetting the guy with three first names - Alfredrick Hughes (1981-1985).
Al, Fred, and Rick combined to be Loyola's all time leading scorer (2914 points) and the no. 14 pick in the 1985 NCAA draft (San Antonio), Hughes was three time MCC Player of the Year, led the Ramblers to the NCAA tournament in 1985, and was also named third team All-American that year. His 2914 career points put him fifth all-time when he graduated Loyola, and is still good for 13th today.

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I believe Hughes played when it was still the Midwestern City Conference and he was gone before it changed names and before Dayton joined the MCC.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.

Gailes scored 44 against us in the semi-finals of the MCC Tournament in 1990. We were able to squeak out a 97-95 victory and then go on to beat X in the finals 98-89. Negele had 34 against Loyola and 32 against X.
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Odds & ends...

- I seem to recall the Wes Coffee incident occurred in early 1989, the last year Donoher coached, but it may have been 1990, the first year JOB coached. When Mack transferred to X after the 1990 season, he was booed heavily in his first appearance as a Muskie at the Arena. Flyer fans have long memories.
Yes we do: March 7, 1991/UD Arena/MCC Tournament
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.
Forgetting their best player ever in Hughes.....
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:20 PM
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Michigan

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post

- UD and Michigan had a multi-year home-home series in the late 70s-early 80s. Wasn’t much of a rivalry, though, UD went 0-12.

- Although the UD-X series is the longest series in UD history, it was a footnote through the 70s & 80s. It only took on relevance after Pete Gillen got them rolling and we joined them in the MCC. In essence, they leveraged our standing at the time as a successful Catholic Independent (1967 NCAA runner up, 1984 Elite 8) by aligning with us and achieving parity.

- While I hesitate to view this as a make or break season, we have completely squandered that aforementioned standing as a premier Catholic basketball power. We are viewed, for better or worse, in the same light as Duquesne, LaSalle, and Loyola—Catholic schools who achieved great status several generations ago, but who are largely irrelevant now. Think about how the suggestion that we schedule home-home with Loyola after their Final 4 run was received by most on this board. That is how WE are viewed to the current basketball powers, regardless of our history and what we did 2013-2017. We have got to get the train going again with consistent success. We’re already functionally behind VCU and Davidson in National perception. While this year (and next) cannot completely erase that perception, it (they) can begin the process.

Let’s play the hand we've been dealt (no P5 teams at home, traditional rivals ducking us, no NBE invite) and win where we need to. To paraphrase Senator John Blutarsky, “Rams—DEAD, Wildcats—DEAD, Billikens—DEAD, Niedermeyer—...”

Who’s with me?
I think all 12 UM games were played at Ann Arbor. UM used UD as a warm up game.

Re UD athletics generally: In my opinion, prior to the arrival of Ted Kissell management of UD athletics was abysmal in just about all aspects. Our emergence in BB under Blackburn was an accident, essentially. Aside from the important farsighted decision to build the Arena, little if anything about UD athletics was at Div 1 level.

Ted Kissell created the first Div 1 athletics program UD ever had....and that did not begin until UD was rejected by the its former Great Midwest colleagues for membership in the new C-USA...a profound embarrassment. Had we joined C-USA essentially everything about UD athletics and BB particularly would have changed....and would be entirely different today.

We often chide A10 weak sisters for their failure to invest in facilities. UD facilities when Kissell arrived make those of Fordham, LaSalle appear downright professional by comparison. Prior to TK's arrival in '92 it's as if the UD administration had no idea re the requirements and responsibilities of conference membership. It took the Great Midwest - C-USA debacle for UD to wake up. Membership in the A-10 was a salvation, a gift.. That and Kissell's outstanding leadership eventually resulted in the broad based athletics program that UD enjoys today.

Nonetheless, before getting too wrapped up in the "We need to be in another conference" movement (because we're too good for the A10), it doesn't hurt to recall the history of why we were not a member of the then new C-USA, a history that has affected the course of UD men's BB ever since. Further, while landing in the A10 saved our @ss, big time, we failed to capitalize on yet yet another opportunity, i.e., domination of A10 basketball.

Re that last point...that opportunity still exists. But even after righting the ship quite a number of years ago we have yet to seize it. The opportunity remains.

Last edited by UACFlyer; 07-18-2019 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Gailes scored 44 against us in the semi-finals of the MCC Tournament in 1990. We were able to squeak out a 97-95 victory and then go on to beat X in the finals 98-89. Negele had 34 against Loyola and 32 against X.
I was at both of those games. Pete Gillen often says that championship game was one of, if not the best game he was ever involved in even though it was a loss.

Originally Posted by steve View Post
Forgetting their best player ever in Hughes.....
See my response above. Hughes played before it was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference and before UD joined.
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:41 PM
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Miami was a big rival for UD years ago. During Don May’s senior year, he received a long standing ovation in Oxford. Rivalry was intense, but fans appreciated the quality of opponents.

UD and Marquette did not play often due to a feud between Donoher and Al McGuire.


UD blew it by not joining the early national basketball tv networks. During its first year Notre Dame was on tv every Saturday and finished the season winless. It laid a groundwork. I think the network was TVS. UD stayed with the local contract and it hurt the program’s exposure big time in the long run. UD could have become a national power if they agreed to the tv arrangement.

Instead, they have never recovered.
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Well, I can take you as far back as 1968 as that's when I was following them. At that point in time the two opponents that most excited me(and I'm assuming much of the fanbase) were Louisville and Cincinnati. Miami probably came in a distant 3rd. Xavier and Depaul were 4 games that we relaxed and watched the Flyers decimate from start to finish. Western Ky was always a great game too. Then Louisville and Cincinnati stopped scheduling us every season and that's when the Notre Dame thing took off.

The Flyers slowly(quickly when I started following them) falling from elite winning program to mediocre to good to very good depending on the season. Depaul made an epic rise and they became a rival in the sense they were so good, we hoped to beat them rather than expected to. Xavier followed suit in a slower more methodical way.

Basically, Dayton refusing to go to a conference in the 70s and 80s was a critical mistake that they will never be fully recovered from. If this program had made the correct critical moves back then, I still believe they would have kept up with Xavier and probably been the better of the two most years.
Spot on.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I think all 12 UM games were played at Ann Arbor.

I remember seeing UD play UM at the Arena in 1984. A month later, UD beat a ranked Maryland team (with Len Bias) at the Arena. Ohio State came a few years later. Scheduling was more flexible and more interesting then.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I think all 12 UM games were played at Ann Arbor. UM used UD as a warm up game.

Actually, five of those ten games were at UD Arena.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:06 PM
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Did UD play Oklahoma City when they were in Division 1?
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
UD blew it by not joining the early national basketball tv networks. During its first year Notre Dame was on tv every Saturday and finished the season winless. It laid a groundwork. I think the network was TVS. UD stayed with the local contract and it hurt the program’s exposure big time in the long run. UD could have become a national power if they agreed to the tv arrangement. Instead, they have never recovered.

Correct. It was the Eddie Einhorn TV deal. HUGE mistake not to join. Rumor was that the UD Administration didn't want to play Saturday afternoon games which would have been required because they felt the fans wanted Saturday night games as a social gathering. Also was a big mistake not to join a conference around that same time.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:15 PM
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Michigan was at the arena in the late 70's when I was 8,9 or 10 years old. I remember saying O H when they ran onto the floor, and some grumpy old man sitting in front of us decided to yell at me that he hates OSU too. I have been scarred for life ever since.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
I remember seeing UD play UM at the Arena in 1984. A month later, UD beat a ranked Maryland team (with Len Bias) at the Arena. Ohio State came a few years later. Scheduling was more flexible and more interesting then.
I remember Dayton losing at Maryland by about 5 points shortly before The Shot against DePaul.
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:09 PM
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This is a great site for checking out old schedules, results, stats, etc. Just click on any season and you can see the entire schedule with results:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/dayton/
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Old 07-18-2019, 04:49 PM
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Here is a memory for you: on December 15 , 1979, Dayton played Michigan in Ann Arbor. Dayton player, John Tomlinson had a friend who played for Michigan. Before, during and after the game, he was so friendly with this guy that I thought that he was going to throw him the ball instead of a Dayton player. I remember being incensed. I don’t mind players being friendly but it was too much. I sensed that he felt more for his friendship with that Michigan player than he had team spirit for his own team. John Tomlinson left Dayton the next year. I don’t Know where he went?
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:27 PM
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Another memory

Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
Here is a memory for you: on December 15 , 1979, Dayton played Michigan in Ann Arbor. Dayton player, John Tomlinson had a friend who played for Michigan. Before, during and after the game, he was so friendly with this guy that I thought that he was going to throw him the ball instead of a Dayton player. I remember being incensed. I don’t mind players being friendly but it was too much. I sensed that he felt more for his friendship with that Michigan player than he had team spirit for his own team. John Tomlinson left Dayton the next year. I don’t Know where he went?
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Speaking of memories that are a bit strange or at least unusual: I recall a game at the Field House against St. Josephs in the late 50s I think. For most of the game the Flyers were having their way with SJU. About half way through the second half UD was up by about 15 when SJU upped its game noticeably. I recall thinking something like..."Well with only 10 minutes to play SJU will have to shave our lead by more than a point a minute to beat us".

It was very close at the end and, forgive me, I don't recall the final outcome. What I do recall is at the end of the season a point shaving scandal was uncovered at St. Joes and the Dayton game was singled out as one in which two (I think) SJU players were paid to ensure a certain point margin. Thinking about the tension at the end of the game made me ill.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:09 PM
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[QUOTE=UACFlyer;588989]
Re UD athletics generally: In my opinion, prior to the arrival of Ted Kissell management of UD athletics was abysmal in just about all aspects. Our emergence in BB under Blackburn was an accident, essentially. Aside from the important farsighted decision to build the Arena, little if anything about UD athletics was at Div 1 level.
/QUOTE]

UAC, I agree about Kissell, but we played some breakthrough basketball in the '50's and '60's and it was hardly accidental. The UD Fieldhouse was no masterpiece, but the atmosphere was electric for two decades against good competition. Blackburn was a super recruiter and coach and put us on the map.

We won more basketball games in the those decades than any other program in the country. A good year or two might be an accident, but not 20 years of leaving "insignificant" in the rear view mirror. It's how we slowly unraveled after that was depressing.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
You're forgetting the guy with three first names - Alfredrick Hughes (1981-1985).
Al, Fred, and Rick combined to be Loyola's all time leading scorer (2914 points) and the no. 14 pick in the 1985 NCAA draft (San Antonio), Hughes was three time MCC Player of the Year, led the Ramblers to the NCAA tournament in 1985, and was also named third team All-American that year. His 2914 career points put him fifth all-time when he graduated Loyola, and is still good for 13th today.

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Wasn’t his name SHOOT Alfredrick Hughes. He shot from anywhere, anytime. He probably had less than 10 assists in his career 😄
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  #42  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:19 PM
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"Accidental" explanation...

[QUOTE=San Diego Flyer;589007]
Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Re UD athletics generally: In my opinion, prior to the arrival of Ted Kissell management of UD athletics was abysmal in just about all aspects. Our emergence in BB under Blackburn was an accident, essentially. Aside from the important farsighted decision to build the Arena, little if anything about UD athletics was at Div 1 level.
/QUOTE]

UAC, I agree about Kissell, but we played some breakthrough basketball in the '50's and '60's and it was hardly accidental. The UD Fieldhouse was no masterpiece, but the atmosphere was electric for two decades against good competition. Blackburn was a super recruiter and coach and put us on the map.

We won more basketball games in the those decades than any other program in the country. A good year or two might be an accident, but not 20 years of leaving "insignificant" in the rear view mirror. It's how we slowly unraveled after that was depressing.
I agree completely SDF. What I meant by using the word "accidental" was the hiring of Tom Blackburn. That move, carried out I'll bet with little or no thought, was the bedrock of the two amazing decades to which you referred. We'll never know, but in my opinion without the Blackburn's hire the 50s and 60s would not have happened. That's what I meant by "accidental". What followed was no accident, as you have explained well.

But, in spite of the BB excellence of that two decade period UD never had a Div 1 athletics program. I think Frericks et al thought that an outstanding men's BB team was an athletics program. It is not. And a top-tier BB program is an insufficient requirement for any conference if that's all you have. And....that's all we had. That shortcoming as much as the BB downturn was the reason why we were not included in the GMW-to-CUSA transition.

Kissell, coming from a major university recognized the problem....a problem he most likely underestimated when deciding to take the UD job...and he set out on the long road to correct it, beginning first with the urgency of resurrecting men's basketball.

Ted did a masterful job. But the damage had been done. By the time men's BB had been repaired and a real university athletics program developed the college athletics landscape had changed dramatically and, so far, we have been unable to catch up....at least to the degree we all strive for.

A little luck would have helped, e.g., a Jay Wright coaching hire and/or a few Don Mays. But, luck won't do it. Men's BB has resources that few peers can even dream of. But for some reason we have yet to fully capitalize on that good fortune. Hopefully Coach Grant will pull it off. He's a UD guy!
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  #43  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:15 PM
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I was looking at these old attendance numbers starting in 1970. It is quite impressive that UD was in the top 10 for 4 out of 5 years from 1970-1974, peaking at #5 in 1970 for that 5 year period.

At times, we were ahead of Kentucky, Indiana, Louisville, Kansas, North Carolina, Syracuse, Ohio State, Marquette, Tennessee, etc. back then.


http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats...ceYBYtop25.pdf

http://www.ncaa.org/championships/st...all-attendance

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Old 07-18-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Gailes scored 44 against us in the semi-finals of the MCC Tournament in 1990. We were able to squeak out a 97-95 victory and then go on to beat X in the finals 98-89. Negele had 34 against Loyola and 32 against X.
...and Alfredrick Hughes went on to be a professional basketball star in... Dayton, Ohio! For the WBL champion Dayton Wings.
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Old 07-18-2019, 10:50 PM
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A. Hughes - one of the Dayton Wingsplayers.

Who else was a "Wingnut"? It was a short lived league...but fun to watch.

6'- 4" and under.
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Wasn’t his name SHOOT Alfredrick Hughes. He shot from anywhere, anytime. He probably had less than 10 assists in his career 😄
Loyola fans would chant that. I think the chant had two meanings.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:15 AM
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[QUOTE=UACFlyer;589011]
Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post

I agree completely SDF. What I meant by using the word "accidental" was the hiring of Tom Blackburn. That move, carried out I'll bet with little or no thought, was the bedrock of the two amazing decades to which you referred. We'll never know, but in my opinion without the Blackburn's hire the 50s and 60s would not have happened.
Blackburn's High School resume set him up for the hire. Dayton knew they could only afford a HS Coach with our dismal record prior to Blackburn. Tom B was a proven winner at the HS level and knew the Ohio landscape for recruiting with a sprinkling of talent from outside of Ohio--largely to the east. He was a consistent winner at Xenia and coached a State Champion in 1942.

I think a better way to put it is that Dayton could hardly afford to look outside of the successful local programs. In that regard, yes, we were lucky that a proven coach like Tom was available and willing. Our facilities were a joke. I don't know how Tom lured good talent to play for us in the early years.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:36 AM
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Tom Blackburn put the Flyers on the map in the 1950's. He was a visionary as he saw how important the big man was to basketball in that era. He lured Bill Uhl senior out of Greenfield, Ohio to come and play. He also recruited three Bockhorns out of Southern Illinois and players from the East Coast. There were two local greats that he could not lure here - Jerry Lucas out of Middletown and Bill Hosket out of Belmont High School. Those two, though in different years, would have lifted the Flyers to true greatness in that period.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:26 AM
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Question

Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.
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See my response above. Hughes played before it was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference and before UD joined.

Kind of hard to be the MCC Player of the Year if you're not in the MCC . . .
(The Midwestern City Conference changed it's name to the Midwestern Collegiate Conference in 1985, UD joined the conference in 1987)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred...External_links


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Old 07-19-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Kind of hard to be the MCC Player of the Year if you're not in the MCC . . .
(The Midwestern City Conference changed it's name to the Midwestern Collegiate Conference in 1985, UD joined the conference in 1987)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred...External_links


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Old 07-19-2019, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Loyola pretty much stunk when they were in the MCC. They did have one player, Keith Gailes, at the end of the 80's early 90's that was very good but he didn't have much of a supporting cast.
Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Hughes was three time MCC Player of the Year, led the Ramblers to the NCAA tournament in 1985, and was also named third team All-American that year.

Kind of hard to be the MCC Player of the Year if you're not in the MCC . . .
(The Midwestern City Conference changed it's name to the Midwestern Collegiate Conference in 1985, UD joined the conference in 1987)
Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Isn't that what I said?

Not exactly
The Flyers played the Ramblers every season Hughes was at Loyola (winning 3 out of 4) so one could infer from the tile of this thread that Hughes belongs in the discussion.

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  #52  
Old 07-19-2019, 05:39 PM
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But did Dayton really suffer because they joined a conference too late, or simply underperformed after they finally joined a conference? Marquette, DePaul, and Notre Dame all joined conferences around the same time we did -- I think ND even held out longer (granted they are an engine unto themselves). But DePaul and Marquette are just fine today from a conference standpoint.

I think we were hurt more by our MCC/GMC performance as much or more as the holding out. From 1987-88 or whenever we joined the MCC to 1995 when we finally found refuge in the A10, we had one decent season. One. When all of this conference formation and shuffling and hierarchy was most important that would set the tone for CBB for the next 20 years -- Dayton put a very poor product forward that few wanted.

Even DePaul under Joey Meyer cobbled together just enough decent seasons in the early 90s to stay relevant. Joey is panned, but he did just enough (231-158) to keep the Blue Demons in the "haves" column. His last two years in 96 and 97 were terrible but by that time they were already in CUSA and the die had been cast.

As for Marquette, Kevin O'Neil, Mike Deane, and Tom Crean all won far more than they lost during this period. Notre Dame was awful under John Macleod (92-99) but its ND so it never mattered due to the strength of all their other sports, football, and their brand.


I agree w/the influence Frericks had at the national level and where we were coming out of the 60s and 70s (and maybe early 80s) we probably had some opportunities we foolishly passed up and regret that other schools did not. But I think we still overcome all of them were the last cpl years of Donoher better and Jim OBrien not been a complete disaster. That 7-8yr window more or less was the kill shot.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:41 PM
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How much did the Arena change from opening till the mid 90s?
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:06 PM
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Passing on national TV hurt the program much more then any conference affiliation. That was the killer for the program.

Blame the coaches, but skipping on TV was a very bad decision
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Passing on national TV hurt the program much more then any conference affiliation. That was the killer for the program.

Blame the coaches, but skipping on TV was a very bad decision
Help me out here, what national tv contract did we pass on?
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Help me out here, what national tv contract did we pass on?

The Eddie Einhorn TV package (TVS) in the 70's.

Last edited by longtimefan; 07-19-2019 at 11:29 PM..
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
How much did the Arena change from opening till the mid 90s?
Not much, really. I’ve been to most of the UD games in The Arena’s history, and it changed very little in those first 28 seasons. It wasn’t until PSLs became part of the equation that it began evolving into what we’ve seen more recently.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Odds & ends...

- I seem to recall the Wes Coffee incident occurred in early 1989, the last year Donoher coached, but it may have been 1990, the first year JOB coached...

Let’s play the hand we've been dealt (no P5 teams at home, traditional rivals ducking us, no NBE invite) and win where we need to. To paraphrase Senator John Blutarsky, “Rams—DEAD, Wildcats—DEAD, Billikens—DEAD, Niedermeyer—...”

Who’s with me?
The Great Chri Smack incident happened in 1989-90, and he was the 2nd of 2 Evansville players to do it in that game (Scott Schreffler - sp? - was the first). The reason why Jim CrewsControl called for it was, JOB put his tallest player (Wes Coffee, at 7’0”) to guard the inbounds pass after every UD basket, to maintain the breakneck pace that was his coaching style at the time. UE’s only answer was to break the nose of the guy guarding the inbounds passer, namely Coffee.

And it couldn’t have been during the Donoher era because DD rarely, if ever, utilized a full-court press, and Coffee’s presence on the inbounds pass was the starting point for the JOB press.

And yes, Brother Bluto, I’m with you all the way!
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer Dave View Post
Who else was a "Wingnut"? It was a short lived league...but fun to watch.

6'- 4" and under.
I remember Perry McDonald from G-town and a Golden Gloves boxer.

Troy Lewis: the best shooter I have ever seen in person

UD's own Anthony Corbitt (Who shrunk 1.5 inches somehow)

Brooke Steppe from Georgia Tech

Those guys were unbelievably talented.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:51 PM
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Was Detroit considered a rival or peer school?
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:56 PM
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Detroit was a legitimate rival during those days. However, the Titans' pinnacle of success was in the early 1960s when they had Dave DeBusschere. During that era, the Titans made two NIT and one NCAA appearance and were a top ten team at various times. Dave was one of the great college basketball players of his era, averaging 24 points per game. At 6'6", he was able to score both inside and out and was a tremendous rebounder. He and the Flyers' Gary Roggenburk had quite a personal rivalry during those years. DeBusschere went on to play in both the ABA and NBA and was named one of the top 50 NBA players of all time. What is interesting about both players is they both went on to play professional baseball. Dave once threw a shutout in 1963 against the Cleveland Indians...coincidentally Gary Roggenburk's hometown! After a few years trying to remain in the major leagues, Dave retreated to basketball and had a stellar career.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
Detroit was a legitimate rival during those days. However, the Titans' pinnacle of success was in the early 1960s when they had Dave DeBusschere. During that era, the Titans made two NIT and one NCAA appearance and were a top ten team at various times. Dave was one of the great college basketball players of his era, averaging 24 points per game. At 6'6", he was able to score both inside and out and was a tremendous rebounder. He and the Flyers' Gary Roggenburk had quite a personal rivalry during those years. DeBusschere went on to play in both the ABA and NBA and was named one of the top 50 NBA players of all time. What is interesting about both players is they both went on to play professional baseball. Dave once threw a shutout in 1963 against the Cleveland Indians...coincidentally Gary Roggenburk's hometown! After a few years trying to remain in the major leagues, Dave retreated to basketball and had a stellar career.

And his sister went to UD.

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