I am probably a little too into Flyer basketball...

[joeybaloney]

Because I am worried sick about the future of our program.

I will admit my following of UD hoops is borderline obsessive. When UD is playing, friends and family know that unless it's an emergency, don't bother me. The world basically stops for me for those couple of hours. I am on this board constantly, although I rarely post. Always make it a point to try and listen to the coaches show, if even via podcast. I grew up listening to Larry and Bucky, and they are on for every flyer game(thank god for the wonder of syncing them up to the tv via dvr). Again, I know my fandom is a little over the top, but I don't give a shinola, because it is something I am passionate about and truly enjoy.

These last four years have been obviously wonderful to us all as Flyer fans. We remember the horrible O'brien seasons and the slow steady build by OP, culminating in our NIT appearance in 1997. I was thrilled that we were finally back in post season play. When Purnell left I wasn't worried or stressed. I like most people felt like he had plateaued. Gregory got us our first NCAA win in like 19 yrs, but just couldn't quite get over the hump.
When he left a majority of us were kind of relieved that he moved on.

With Archie leaving I am sick with worry about how this may go. I like most every one on here agree that UD is a great job with in my opinion the best fans in college basketball and great facilities, super support from the entire community. However, what if there just isn't anyone available at this exact moment that is capable of at least keeping us near the level Archie got us to? Kind of like having an NBA lottery pick in a year when there just arent many good players in the draft. We clearly have so many holes on our roster, finding a coach soon to convince both upperclassmen and incoming freshmen to remain Flyers is imperative. And oh yeah, he also needs to be able to recruit, have a good feel for X's and O's, and devolop players. What if there just isn't anyone at this time that can fill those shoes? This could set us back for years if things don't fall right.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[Smitty10]

I think you just expressed the feeling 99 percent of Flyers' diehards like myself.

I think the thing that makes this time seem scary is what you said about OP plateauing. I actually think we saw the same with Gregory, and dare I say Donoher also if you've been a fan long enough. Of course nobody was sad to see O'Brien leave. AM is our first coach to leave where we haven't felt like he's already given us his best success. It was like he gave us round one with SS, KD, KP, DP and JS. And now it looked like round 2 was going to maybe lead to the promised land with the 6 new players joining next season.

Yep, I'm afraid that we all felt we were finally out of this constant up and down that we experienced since the early 70s. But now the fear of that is back.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[TerryK_67]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 .... I think the thing that makes this time seem scary is what you said about OP plateauing. I actually think we saw the same with Gregory, and dare I say Donoher also if you've been a fan long enough. Of course nobody was sad to see O'Brien leave. AM is our first coach to leave where we haven't felt like he's already given us his best success. ........

In a quick retro spec, I think Archie felt that his ability to recruit had plateaued. Very similar to OP when he left.... Just my $.02.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[steve]

Originally Posted by joeybaloney Because I am worried sick about the future of our program. I will admit my following of UD hoops is borderline obsessive. When UD is playing, friends and family know that unless it's an emergency, don't bother me. The world basically stops for me for those couple of hours. I am on this board constantly, although I rarely post. Always make it a point to try and listen to the coaches show, if even via podcast. I grew up listening to Larry and Bucky, and they are on for every flyer game(thank god for the wonder of syncing them up to the tv via dvr). Again, I know my fandom is a little over the top, but I don't give a shinola, because it is something I am passionate about and truly enjoy. These last four years have been obviously wonderful to us all as Flyer fans. We remember the horrible O'brien seasons and the slow steady build by OP, culminating in our NIT appearance in 1997. I was thrilled that we were finally back in post season play. When Purnell left I wasn't worried or stressed. I like most people felt like he had plateaued. Gregory got us our first NCAA win in like 19 yrs, but just couldn't quite get over the hump. When he left a majority of us were kind of relieved that he moved on. With Archie leaving I am sick with worry about how this may go. I like most every one on here agree that UD is a great job with in my opinion the best fans in college basketball and great facilities, super support from the entire community. However, what if there just isn't anyone available at this exact moment that is capable of at least keeping us near the level Archie got us to? Kind of like having an NBA lottery pick in a year when there just arent many good players in the draft. We clearly have so many holes on our roster, finding a coach soon to convince both upperclassmen and incoming freshmen to remain Flyers is imperative. And oh yeah, he also needs to be able to recruit, have a good feel for X's and O's, and devolop players. What if there just isn't anyone at this time that can fill those shoes? This could set us back for years if things don't fall right.

Archie didn't get us to where we are his first couple years. Don't care who's walking thru that door this week, they are going to have a tough year coming up and that's even if all the recruits stick around..Lots and lots of new parts coming in, new X's and O's I'm sure, some new defensive strategies, expectations, and a junior class that hasn't shown they can build onto the success. Unless those 4 guys (actually, 3 of them) progress physically, maturity-wise, and from a leadership standpoint like the senior class we just lost did then there are going to be plenty of early issues this season and possibly longer.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[rollo]

Hate to say this, but it's time to man up and move on...

[steve]

Originally Posted by rollo Hate to say this, but it's time to man up and move on...

But isn't she whispering "There's no place like home" ? That's too hard to move on from..

[ud99]

Take a few drinks of bourbon. It helps!

[hawkoooo]

You are not alone. I've been so upset that I cannot enjoy this run South Carolina is on even though I live here and follow their other sports. Losing, the seniors ending that way, Archie leaving, uncertainty about new coach, transfers, recruits. It has been too much.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo You are not alone. I've been so upset that I cannot enjoy this run South Carolina is on even though I live here and follow their other sports. Losing, the seniors ending that way, Archie leaving, uncertainty about new coach, transfers, recruits. It has been too much.

I'm starting to wonder if AM was preoccupied that last few weeks and the players picked up on it. Losing 3 straight games? (though I do admit that most seemed to play well against WSU)...

[Sea Bass]

Neil has to get it right. UD is in the same position from 6 years ago. Archie was a nice run but he has left the cupboard bare. New coach will have to recruit well for 2 years to get back to the NCAA tourney.

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I'm starting to wonder if AM was preoccupied that last few weeks and the players picked up on it. Losing 3 straight games? (though I do admit that most seemed to play well against WSU)...

Bingo! Just like when Oliver left us as a fourth round seed in the NCAA tourney. He had packed it in, no question. I will let history decide whether Archied did or not.

[UDDoug]

UD does not have a basketball PROGRAM if they can not thrive through coaching changes. Many want to be like X or Butler, who go through coaches and come out the better each time.

If Archie was the primary driver of success, then UD doesn't have a program, it had a coach. They aren't the same thing.

[San Diego Flyer]

Looking beyond the blame-game is the first step to recovery for all. If the men's PROGRAM does as well as Shauna Green has done with the women, I would be ecstatic. They had a rough beginning but quickly gained traction. Think the men have even more hurdles to overcome. Still say the over and under next year is 18 wins. I bring no ill-will to JJ or Arch for their personal and professional choices. They did well for us.

Sullivan has all the pressure right now. Not irrational to expect the next coach to do better than Ryan Miller did. And that doesn't necessarily mean a Final Four in two seasons. We are a respected program right now and we can and should build on that.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Looking beyond the blame-game is the first step to recovery for all. If the men's PROGRAM does as well as Shauna Green has done with the women, I would be ecstatic. They had a rough beginning but quickly gained traction. Think the men have even more hurdles to overcome. Still say the over and under next year is 18 wins. I bring no ill-will to JJ or Arch for their personal and professional choices. They did well for us. Sullivan has all the pressure right now. Not irrational to expect the next coach to do better than Ryan Miller did. And that doesn't necessarily mean a Final Four in two seasons. We are a respected program right now and we can and should build on that.

In some ways the women's program situation was better than the men's situation. Jabir left at the last possible minute. The current players and new recruits had no place to go.

I have no ill will for Archie either but I don't necessarily wish him well.

Most of this saw this coming at some point. We hoped otherwise but we knew it was not if, it was when. I will wait and see how the administration handles the transition before making further judgment.

[Wallage]

I think everyone is at least a little worried. But from everything I've heard a) Sullivan/Spina are totally capable of making a great hire, b) UD is viewed much more positively by the coaching/college bball world at large than 6 years ago. Should lead to interest from good candidates.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Wallage I think everyone is at least a little worried. But from everything I've heard a) Sullivan/Spina are totally capable of making a great hire, b) UD is viewed much more positively by the coaching/college bball world at large than 6 years ago. Should lead to interest from good candidates.

I am not worried about receiving interest from good candidates. I don't think that had been a problem with the last 2 hires. Both BG and Archie were known as top level assistants at the time. They took the job and sure, UD has shown they will pay the big bucks to someone that deserves it.

UD is not going to pay a couple of mil to an unproven assistant. I think they would to a proven hc but I don't hear any names like that being bantered about, other than Grant.

So we are back to the crap shoot of hiring a new hc. Sounds like 2003 and 2011 all over again. Progress?

[Gem City]

I think you describe 99% of the Flyer fans that are on this board. We’re all passionate Flyer fans and that’s what makes UD special. There are so many of us that truly care about this program, this school and this community.

My love of UD basketball started with the ’84 team. That was my team. Schellenberg, Chapman, Toney, Goodwin, Christie. My favorite player was Schellenberg. Yes, it’s probably the fact that his name really didn’t fit on the back of his jersey. It was like a rainbow of letters that tucked into his shorts. I know Larry wasn’t the best player at UD either. Chapman was the star. He will go down with Don May and Roger Brown as one of the best players to ever put on a Dayton uniform. Goodwin was a dead eye shooter before the three point line. Imagine that cat with a three point shot, holy cow. Sedric Toney had NBA talent and everyone knew it. He had crazy quickness and ball handling skills. He had NBA three point range before there was NBA three point range. The kid could flat out ball. Then there was Schellenberg. Schellenberg was a good shooter, not a great shooter. He wasn’t particularly tall but he always seemed to grab that loose ball. He wasn’t a great ball handler but he was maybe the best passer on the team. In other words, he was an effort kid and as a grade school kid I could relate to him. I wasn’t very big and I wasn’t the most athletically gifted kid but I could give Larry Schellenburg type effort. I’m talking about diving on the floor for ball, getting in passing lanes. I know I drove my friend crazy practicing box out drills and l was always looking for the open man, that extra pass. You know the stuff that doesn’t show up on box scores. Schellenburg was my guy and I tried like hell to be the next Schellenburg at UD. Well, at the end of day you still need something called talent so….high school ball is about all I could manage.

Having bored you all to tears, I can assure you that UD basketball will survive this set back. I have followed UD basketball for almost 40 years now. I have been a season ticket holder for almost 25 years. I have seen some really hard times at UD. I’m talking 4 win seasons bad. (ugh…Jim O’Brien) I don’t think anything will ever be that bad. We are probably looking at two or three down years at UD as Archie has left us with a depleted roster and a recruiting class that will most likely disappear on us, but UD will be back. We will climb the mountain. I can guarantee you when Archie Miller is old and retired UD will still have 13K fans packing UD Arena to watch the Flyers play Southwestern Missouri State Tech play on a Tuesday night on ESPN 5. This program, this school,this community is going to outlive us all including Archie Miller.

How many programs could weather the losing decade UD did in the ‘90’s and not see a major drop off in fans support? UD sucked for a decade and the fan base stayed. We can handle this dip in the road. Better days are ahead of us. Now go get us a freaking coach already!

[udx2]

Originally Posted by joeybaloney Because I am worried sick about the future of our program... These last four years have been obviously wonderful to us all as Flyer fans... With Archie leaving I am sick with worry about how this may go. I like most every one on here agree that UD is a great job with in my opinion the best fans in college basketball and great facilities, super support from the entire community. However, what if there just isn't anyone available at this exact moment that is capable of at least keeping us near the level Archie got us to?

You are channeling the thoughts of many Flyer fans in your post.

Just want to point out that we knew Archie was leaving at some point although we hoped it would be tied to an incredibly successful season and a run at least as good is our Elite 8 run. He leaves the program with some good things including stronger national reputation and perception. That will carry forward.

We are very concerned about the impact on recruits and understand that next season could be challenging.

The good points include the fact that I am confident that UD can attract (or may already have here) strong coaching talent and the program is both known and respected. It will survive.

[jack72]

At least now we have an excuse for next year when we struggle to get to .500. If Archie were here, many would be on the ledge.

[joeybaloney]

Originally Posted by steve Archie didn't get us to where we are his first couple years. Don't care who's walking thru that door this week, they are going to have a tough year coming up and that's even if all the recruits stick around..Lots and lots of new parts coming in, new X's and O's I'm sure, some new defensive strategies, expectations, and a junior class that hasn't shown they can build onto the success. Unless those 4 guys (actually, 3 of them) progress physically, maturity-wise, and from a leadership standpoint like the senior class we just lost did then there are going to be plenty of early issues this season and possibly longer.

Yeah, there is no doubt next year was going to be a challenging year even with Archie. However, pretty sure no one would have had much concern about a follow up spiral the season after, because in Archie we trust. If we struggle with a new coach, the fear of a continuing spiral will be on everyone's minds. Wouldn't have had that with AM.

[Flyer69ers]

Wouldn't we next year (just like this year) be waiting for the other shoe to drop - following the coaching carousel - reporting and discussing every AM rumor??

So that's one thing we won't be worrying about next year.

[FlyerBob]

I can't leave you people on this Board unsupervised for even 2 weeks. Just got back into town from some international travel and missed the UD loss, Archie leaving, and the recruiting class not sure where to turn. WTF? I was in shock for the last 24 hours but I've calmed down and starting to feel optomistic about our future again... now everyone on their best behavior! I really do want this class to keep their commitment though, would make this transition so much more fun.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Yep, it is all your fault FlyerBob. Drinks on you and we might begin to forgive you a little, just a little.

[MD Flyer Pride]

Originally Posted by jack72 At least now we have an excuse for next year when we struggle to get to .500. If Archie were here, many would be on the ledge.

No... Archie would be on the plank.

[T-Bone 84]

Gem City, I hear you. I was a senior at UD in 1983-84, and that was an incredible season. But my love of UD hoops goes back to the last seasons in the Fieldhouse. The days of Donnie May, Hooper, Torain, Sadlier, Obravac, and the rest. I remember the Arena having the lid blown off when we beat #2 ranked Notre Dame, behind the efforts of Smitty, Sly, and Johnny D. The Paxson era, the Chapman era, and every era since: I've seen 'em. And, God willing, I'll see more.

Am I worried? Sure. No disrespect intended to Don Donoher, but Archie Miller took this program to heights this program hadn't seen since the days of Tom Blackburn (and no, I don't remember those days). And that will be hard to replicate, at least for the next few years. But I'm confident that Neil Sullivan and Eric Spina will find the right person to keep the momentum going. Whoever that "right person" might be.

Am I a "dumb optimist"? Maybe. But the Flyer Faithful showed-up 11,000 strong, even during the depths of the early '90s. And we'll keep showing-up 12,000+ strong now. That's why we're The Flyer Faithful. That's why WE ARE UD!

Keep the faith.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Flyer Faithful FLYER FAITHFUL Best college basketball fans in the country. Knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and loyal. Help to create one of the toughest home courts in the nation at UD Arena. Over 12,000 fans a game put the Flyers in the Top-30 nationally in attendance. Fan spirit and support growing to other UD sports and athletic programs as well.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.