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03-12-2014, 01:32 AM
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A-10 Tourney Should Allow Only Top 100 RPI Teams
I know this sounds radical, but I would only allow top 100 RPI teams into the A-10 tourney to maximize bids. This year 8 would have made it with St Bonnie's barely missing out
Dayton is in NCAA today even if we lost to St Joe's in 1st round (top 100 teams only format). But if we lose to 150+ -- GM or Fordham -- we may not be in with 4 bad losses. Beating either team does zero for us -- only downside for us.
Why doesn't the a-10 say only top 100 RPI teams make the tourney -- some years 4-5 teams, other years 9-10.
2 positives: (1) teams will really focus on scheduling OOC to maximize RPI; and (2) no bad losses possible in tourney. This will maximize NCAA bids.
Yes, I realize ticket sales issues, etc., but an extra NCAA unit will more than pay for lost revenue. Also realize odd brackets when have 7 teams.
But this overall would be best thing for a-10 to maximize bids.
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03-12-2014, 07:56 AM
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If you can't beat the over 100 team, then you probably don't deserve an NCAA bid anyway! Think of it as an old fashion college "weed out" class.....
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03-12-2014, 08:50 AM
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Okay, but why would they A10 want to weed out its own teams? That's why some conferences (like Horizon this year) have double-byes. So the top teams have less of a chance of having to face an RPI crippling team.
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03-12-2014, 09:36 AM
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As long as we are thinking outside the box lets can the tournament entirely and dynamically schedule the league for the last 4 or 6 games. Lets say after 12 games you declare the champion. Then the league make us the schedule for the rest of the season with the sole purpose of maximizing the number of at large bids for the league. I do not know what the strategy should be but something like keep the bottom feeders away from the teams with a chance and make teams that are locks travel to bubble teams stadiums to give them a chance for some marque wins. The A10 could even form a strategic alliance with other leagues and make a dymaic schedule that includes strategic interleague games.
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03-12-2014, 09:47 AM
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That's kind of the idea of the Bracket Buster. Not sure if that's still around, though.
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03-12-2014, 11:26 AM
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The Horizon league, in most years, does not get an at large bid, so it is not about RPI, it is about awarding the stronger teams that played well in the conference. The A-10 used to keep a couple of lower bid teams out, I personally like that all teams are now in.
As Terry pointed out, if you can't win those games, then you don't deserve a bid. It is a fine line between making it and not making it. RPI is not the only factor in play, and does not shift a lot per game at this point in the season, it is about avoiding a bad loss that may knock you out.
So I have a better idea, don't get your team in a place that one more bad loss kills your chances... So don't loose to USC at home.
What if all the conferences did this as well, then where would we be? College basketball would be taking a step backwards?
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03-12-2014, 01:50 PM
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lasalle plays St B in the first round. one team is RPI 89 and the other is RPI 103.
Who do we want to win? is there a way both could get to above 100 RPI to help Dayton?
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03-12-2014, 01:59 PM
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Yes, if Bonnies win, both will have a top 100 RPI. But they might have to win the next game to stay in top 100. But maybe not given that they would play Saint Louis who is currently 19. So my guess is that a Bonnies win over LaSalle and a loss to SLU will keep Bonnies final RPI position in the top 100. And LaSalle would still be in mid 90's RPI.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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Last edited by Beatty Town Coach; 03-12-2014 at 02:04 PM..
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03-12-2014, 02:36 PM
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03-12-2014, 02:59 PM
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I don't like this idea because to me most of the fun in march madness comes from the fact that almost all the teams have a shot, a below average team can get hot at the right time and go deep in the post season. Plus this current format introduces much more of a sudden death element to the tournament which I find exciting. If you want teams to go to the dance tell them not lose the games they should win.
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03-12-2014, 03:52 PM
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Clearly, Ruechalgrin is not serious about this idea. My guess is that it was a bit tongue in cheek. Can you imagine how negotiations would go for TV coverage of the tournament? How many days will the tournament last? Not sure. When do we need to have our crews ready to go? Not sure. How many games will we be covering? Not sure. So, what are we supposed to do with the dead air time when we were to be telecasting your games? Not sure. Do you have a plan for addressing concerns about securing advertising? Not sure. I take that you are willing to effectively reduce our package to a 3 game deal (Semi's and Championship Game only)? Not sure. Yeah, that would be fun negotiations.
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03-12-2014, 04:12 PM
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How's that?????????
That would be like saying none of the measurable categories of data are used to figure RPI. Okay maybe your exact number doesn't matter at this point, but tell that to team 70, 71, etc... It matters like putting sugar in ice cream, or not having it in there. Otherwise team 20 would be in-line for a number 1, 2, or 3 seed.
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03-12-2014, 04:27 PM
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Instead of trying to figure out ways to artificially increase the odds of a team making the NCAA, just play well enough in the regular season to not have to worry about getting creative.
I hope that this idea isn't serious...but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. Countless times on UDP over the course of a year, we talk about modifications to the way things are done to give UD a better chance at the post season....
Win the games you are supposed to win and limit your losses to **** teams and the current system works itself out.
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03-12-2014, 04:34 PM
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Being in a stronger conference artificially increases your odds of making the NCAA because your exposure to bad loss opportinities in decreased and your opportunities for good wins is increased.
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03-12-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Instead of trying to figure out ways to artificially increase the odds of a team making the NCAA, just play well enough in the regular season to not have to worry about getting creative.
I hope that this idea isn't serious...but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. Countless times on UDP over the course of a year, we talk about modifications to the way things are done to give UD a better chance at the post season....
Win the games you are supposed to win and limit your losses to **** teams and the current system works itself out.
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A10 Management should absolutely be thinking of ways to maximize the number of A10 teams that Dance. That has to be on a very short list of how they earn their money.
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03-12-2014, 05:07 PM
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Eh, meaningless? That's not quite what that article said:
Then comes wins over top-50 and top-100 teams. Obviously, beating multiple good teams -- tournament teams -- shines on a résumé.
What's not as important as you might think? RPI.
"It's a valuable tool," he said. "There's no better tool to organize things. But it's way overvalued on an absolute basis. It's the relative basis [where it is useful]. It helps us organize batches of top-50 teams."
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03-12-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin
I know this sounds radical, but I would only allow top 100 RPI teams into the A-10 tourney to maximize bids. This year 8 would have made it with St Bonnie's barely missing out
Dayton is in NCAA today even if we lost to St Joe's in 1st round (top 100 teams only format). But if we lose to 150+ -- GM or Fordham -- we may not be in with 4 bad losses. Beating either team does zero for us -- only downside for us.
Why doesn't the a-10 say only top 100 RPI teams make the tourney -- some years 4-5 teams, other years 9-10.
2 positives: (1) teams will really focus on scheduling OOC to maximize RPI; and (2) no bad losses possible in tourney. This will maximize NCAA bids.
Yes, I realize ticket sales issues, etc., but an extra NCAA unit will more than pay for lost revenue. Also realize odd brackets when have 7 teams.
But this overall would be best thing for a-10 to maximize bids.
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Ah, no.
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03-12-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
Being in a stronger conference artificially increases your odds of making the NCAA because your exposure to bad loss opportinities in decreased and your opportunities for good wins is increased.
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Originally Posted by UDEE79
A10 Management should absolutely be thinking of ways to maximize the number of A10 teams that Dance. That has to be on a very short list of how they earn their money.
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Then you don't modify the conference tournament to meet those needs. You just axe the programs that refuse to put funding to make their programs competitive.
Facility requirements...are just a simple way of doing that. DI football does it and for good reasons.
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03-13-2014, 08:20 AM
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I Am A Statistical God
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Then you don't modify the conference tournament to meet those needs. You just axe the programs that refuse to put funding to make their programs competitive.
Facility requirements...are just a simple way of doing that. DI football does it and for good reasons.
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I truly think the Atlantic 10 has the perfect setup for the most bids. A bunch of good teams at the top, a few teams (out of a bunch) that are at the bottom, and a few in the middle that can add some good numbers. The bunch at the top will always get in, the few at the bottom won't beat those at the top or middle, and we get a few extra in the middle.
If we drop teams, we turn into the Big East. Where they are fighting for a 3rd bid this year with 10 teams. They may have some good teams throughout the entire Big East, but they are self-cannibalizing themselves.
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03-13-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
I truly think the Atlantic 10 has the perfect setup for the most bids. A bunch of good teams at the top, a few teams (out of a bunch) that are at the bottom, and a few in the middle that can add some good numbers. The bunch at the top will always get in, the few at the bottom won't beat those at the top or middle, and we get a few extra in the middle.
If we drop teams, we turn into the Big East. Where they are fighting for a 3rd bid this year with 10 teams. They may have some good teams throughout the entire Big East, but they are self-cannibalizing themselves.
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Other than Fordham (who is pretty much always bad), all of the other teams in the bottom half have basically taken turns being bad. Or, rather, taken turns being good. La Salle, St Bonaventure, Rhode Island, Duquesne (to a lesser degree) have all had their good years. GW is good this year, but they've had a good number of down years, too.
I think the ideal setup is what the AAC has this year. A complete 50/50 split of haves and have-nots. The top 5 are probably all going to dance
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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03-13-2014, 10:47 AM
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I would absolutely set conference minimums. I would require every team to have an arena with minimum capacities (obviously, I would allow time to raise money and for construction; however, I would insist on a diligent effort to be demonstrated at all times). The MVC has only one arena with a capacity of less than 7,000 (Loyola - 4,486). The Mountain West has only two arenas with a capacity of less than 8,700 (Air Force - 5,858; San Jose State - 5,000). In comparison, the A10 has seven arenas with less than 7,200 capacity (Davidson - 5,223; Duquesne - 4,406; Fordham - 3,470; GW - 4,338; La Salle - 4,000; SBU - 5,480; SJU - 4,200). So, the A10 has FIVE arenas smaller than any arena in the MVC or Mountain West. This should be addressed immediately.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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03-13-2014, 10:50 AM
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The Horizon League has only 1 arena with a capacity under 5,000. This illustrates how pathetic the A10 facilities are.
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03-13-2014, 11:20 AM
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If they aren't filling what they have - what's the point?
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03-13-2014, 11:45 AM
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Facilities matter. Investment in the program matters. Most of these teams have some up years. Seek out marketing advice about filling seats. Work with national ticket or sports marketing agencies that have expertise in filling unsold seats (Mandalay developed a very progressive approach to this). Regardless, the A10 needs to take advantage of the positive PR it receives. I might be satisfied with a 5,000 seat capacity minimum. A good first step would be to find out from GW what would be involved in raising their capacity to 5,000. I might be ok with using their new arena as a minimum benchmark.
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03-13-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer
I would absolutely set conference minimums. I would require every team to have an arena with minimum capacities (obviously, I would allow time to raise money and for construction; however, I would insist on a diligent effort to be demonstrated at all times). The MVC has only one arena with a capacity of less than 7,000 (Loyola - 4,486). The Mountain West has only two arenas with a capacity of less than 8,700 (Air Force - 5,858; San Jose State - 5,000). In comparison, the A10 has seven arenas with less than 7,200 capacity (Davidson - 5,223; Duquesne - 4,406; Fordham - 3,470; GW - 4,338; La Salle - 4,000; SBU - 5,480; SJU - 4,200). So, the A10 has FIVE arenas smaller than any arena in the MVC or Mountain West. This should be addressed immediately.
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So, the A10 should set conference stadium minimums, and you list 7 schools that are under 7,200. Do you truly think that you can get a majority vote for minimums, when exactly 50% of your schools are already below that minimum? Will Fordham and La Salle automatically vote to increase stadium minimums, knowing they have no money or desire, to build new arenas? As well, will they be willing to be voted out on that area?
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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03-13-2014, 12:29 PM
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Great points, Figgie. I'm not suggesting that 7,200 is the target number. I used that as it was a clear line of demarcation. I might be alright with 5,000. The Horizon League has only one arena with a lower capacity. I'm sure that a national type feasibility study could offer a suggestion as to what is a realistic expectation. I'm inclined to think that it would be in the 5,000 range. Fordham's coach and other coaches recognize that Rose Hill (not Rose Hall as I previously mentioned) wards off prospective players. The A10 should not align itself with a team that has such a built in recruiting hurdle. As to voting it in, I'm not sure what the A10 bylaws require as far as simple majority v super majority or even unanimous agreement. Regardless, it could be a great press release stating that the A10 has set minimum expectations upon its members. There would be more than just a capacity requirement. I would suggest that they require each arena to provide tv camera stands/areas (not sure what the proper terminology is) for today's equipment. The A10 should make it a point that it wants its tv product to be at a high level. The conference cannot assure anyone that the game will hold interest, but it can assure networks that they will have great camera angles.
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03-13-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer
I would absolutely set conference minimums. I would require every team to have an arena with minimum capacities (obviously, I would allow time to raise money and for construction; however, I would insist on a diligent effort to be demonstrated at all times). The MVC has only one arena with a capacity of less than 7,000 (Loyola - 4,486). The Mountain West has only two arenas with a capacity of less than 8,700 (Air Force - 5,858; San Jose State - 5,000). In comparison, the A10 has seven arenas with less than 7,200 capacity (Davidson - 5,223; Duquesne - 4,406; Fordham - 3,470; GW - 4,338; La Salle - 4,000; SBU - 5,480; SJU - 4,200). So, the A10 has FIVE arenas smaller than any arena in the MVC or Mountain West. This should be addressed immediately.
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So the seven schools all tell the A-10 that they aren't going to expand. What is to A-10 going to do about it? become the A-6?
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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03-13-2014, 04:50 PM
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Do the math. There are only 5 schools with arenas that have a seating capacity under 5,000. That assumes that the feasibility study suggested that attendance matters. I would only propose a "minimums" provision if the research suggested that the A10 product suffered from small arenas. If it passed and no action was taken, I would take an approach of decreasing their share of the tv money pot. It could be that 4 of the schools could reach the magic number with expansion. Fordham is in a different position. I have to believe that they would need to build a new arena. I wouldn't be heartbroken if Fordham left. Lombardi was close to having the money and support for a new arena before he died. They may be able to find the money and support if their on the court performance improved.
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03-13-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer
Clearly, Ruechalgrin is not serious about this idea. My guess is that it was a bit tongue in cheek. Can you imagine how negotiations would go for TV coverage of the tournament? How many days will the tournament last? Not sure. When do we need to have our crews ready to go? Not sure. How many games will we be covering? Not sure. So, what are we supposed to do with the dead air time when we were to be telecasting your games? Not sure. Do you have a plan for addressing concerns about securing advertising? Not sure. I take that you are willing to effectively reduce our package to a 3 game deal (Semi's and Championship Game only)? Not sure. Yeah, that would be fun negotiations.
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Is was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but i do think the A-10 should be thinking of maximizing the bids for the NCAA. Others on the board don't like it, but BCS schools do the way top 50 wins are value. Minn. is like 1-7 versus top 25 teams and they won the won at home (according to kenpom, if they beat #15 at home this should be really treated like a #55 win neutral). BCS schools have structural advantages getting into the NCAA so we should figure out how to do it as well.
I think the A-10 scheduled well to take advantage of the RPI. I would actually limit the tourney to 8 teams (so 6 don't make it) or 10 teams (and have 7-10 play-in) or something like this. Yes Dayton would be excluded some years. But think of the 8 A-10 teams in this year, all top 105 RPI or better. This would create a ton of excitement and people would be talking about A-10 as tough or tougher tourney than BCS schools. Moreover, it would help us maximize NCAA bids.
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