Clutcher

[AZFlyer85]

Clutcher saved his profesional basketball career. He played like an NBA quality guard tonight. A few more of these and he might get drafted.

[shwag33]

I disagree, I don't think there's really any chance barring something absolutely historic. His size is a big reason why.

[jack72]

Remember TJ McConnell, who played point for Duquesne and then transferred to Arizona? He is 6’2” and no better in college than Jalen. He has like a six year NBA career going.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[rollo]

Jalen > Rondo

[CE80]

Fill in the ____

Jalen ____ BRob
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by CE80 Fill in the ____ Jalen ____ BRob Posted via Mobile Device

PG Scooch>Jalen>BRob

SG BRob>Jalen>Scooch

Combo Jalen>BRob>Scooch

Creating own 3 point shot BRob>Jalen>Scooch

Creating own shot inside the arc Jalen>Scooch>BRob

So based on the fact I can't put Jalen last in any of these categories, I give him a better chance than I had before this season started.

However, I will give all three the nod over Sedric Toney who carved out a nice NBA career as a PG, albeit 35 years ago..

[shwag33]

Originally Posted by jack72 Remember TJ McConnell, who played point for Duquesne and then transferred to Arizona? He is 6’2” and no better in college than Jalen. He has like a six year NBA career going. Posted via Mobile Device

This was a thread about getting drafted not playing in the nba at some point. McConnell wasn't drafted. Crutcher isn't even on the boards i've seen for potentially getting drafted.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 PG Scooch>Jalen>BRob SG BRob>Jalen>Scooch Combo Jalen>BRob>Scooch Creating own 3 point shot BRob>Jalen>Scooch Creating own shot inside the arc Jalen>Scooch>BRob So based on the fact I can't put Jalen last in any of these categories, I give him a better chance than I had before this season started. However, I will give all three the nod over Sedric Toney who carved out a nice NBA career as a PG, albeit 35 years ago..

This is an interesting opinion. Unfortunately, BRob played in the days of limited TV (for me) so I don't have as much eye test data for him as Jalen and Scoochie. I would have put BRob ahead of the other 2 in all 3 categories.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by CE80 This is an interesting opinion. Unfortunately, BRob played in the days of limited TV (for me) so I don't have as much eye test data for him as Jalen and Scoochie. I would have put BRob ahead of the other 2 in all 3 categories.

Interesting takes. BRob was a different Player/PG in the NBA than at UD. Not saying it changes the rankings but it did help him have a decent NBA gig.

The only ranking provided I would even think of debating is SS as a better PG than JC. I’d be interested in rationale as JC has great court vision and is one of the best passers I’ve ever seen. Both are great ball handlers. I also think JC has a quicker shot release than SS and may be slightly quicker off the dribble than SS.
Posted via Mobile Device

[steve]

Originally Posted by jack72 Remember TJ McConnell, who played point for Duquesne and then transferred to Arizona? He is 6’2” and no better in college than Jalen. He has like a six year NBA career going. Posted via Mobile Device

TJ was a better pure point guard than Jalen in college.He was a better passer and got guys more involved from when I watched him at both colleges. Last year we had the best player in the country so that helped Jalen out quite a bit as he was able to find him almost at all times with ease. We're seeing a totally different story this year and yet we still have two senior guards with the ball in their hands most of the time.

I believe that Jalen is a lot more offensive minded than TJ was in college and that's okay. Jalen is not going to get drafted and that's probably the best thing for him. All it takes is for a team to like him and he gets in camp and plays well and/ or there are possible injuries to players in that camp and he'll get his chance. There are many types of players in the NBA. TJ gets in the game and does create havoc and makes all the right plays. I've seen him get steals and go the distance and pass off of for the dunk, keep balls alive and hit the right guy for open shots. I'm sure TJ was also in the right place at the right time to get that opportunity because just going off watching him in college no one would think that he would be an NBA player and an instrumental one at that and log the type of minutes that he gets per game.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[soccergod]

Terry Rozier from Louisville NBA star 6-1 190. Payton Pritchard 15th pick 6-2
Posted via Mobile Device

[shwag33]

Originally Posted by soccergod Terry Rozier from Louisville NBA star 6-1 190. Payton Pritchard 15th pick 6-2 Posted via Mobile Device

Should we point out muggsy bogues as well? Sure there's shorter guys that get drafted, but crutcher most likely won't be one of them. I'd put money on it.

[steve]

Originally Posted by shwag33 Should we point out muggsy bogues as well? Sure there's shorter guys that get drafted, but crutcher most likely won't be one of them. I'd put money on it.

Yeah the size really doesn't matter. If Jalen had incredible athletic ability and was built like a brick ****house and could get to the rack anytime he wanted along with his ability hit the three would be talking about a totally different player.

[Fudd]

I love Crutcher as a college player. I'm not so sure about his NBA prospects because those running shots that he gets in the lane are going to be contested by aircraft carriers with 7'6" wingspans rather than marginally athletic average college players. And when you get bumped on the shot in the NBA, it's not a foul unless there is blood. You have to have the physicality to match that. It's just a different landscape in the NBA.

Of course, I could be very wrong.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer Interesting takes. BRob was a different Player/PG in the NBA than at UD. Not saying it changes the rankings but it did help him have a decent NBA gig. The only ranking provided I would even think of debating is SS as a better PG than JC. I’d be interested in rationale as JC has great court vision and is one of the best passers I’ve ever seen. Both are great ball handlers. I also think JC has a quicker shot release than SS and may be slightly quicker off the dribble than SS. Posted via Mobile Device

This was not a knock on JC, but SS was a pure PG to me and JC is more hybrid. Seems when JC doesn't score, he has a bad game, because what makes him so great and crucial for the Flyers is his all around offense more so than his ball handling skills. SS could have a day of scoring minimal points, and still have a great game. Not so with JC. And SS rarely ever faced full court pressure because it was pointless as he could not be trapped. And what's crazy is he could do so at such a slower pace. Methodical pace if you will.

As far as you last sentence, fully agree, and I think my ratings reflect that in both Jalen being better at creating his own 3 point shot and creating his own 2 point shot.

If you asked me who was the best player rating all three, I'd still go BRob>JC>SS. But as for who's game will play out better in the pros, then I'm not so sure. I think JC probably does because he's got it it all. As we saw against Davidson, JC is hard to stop because when he has the ball, 3 things can take place at any time and that's a 3 point pop, taking it on the dribble with a floater or taking it to the rim. When he had an Obi(which he would bound to have someone along those lines in the NBA), that adds a 4th thing and that slipping the ball to him.

I guess my main reason for putting SS over JC as a pure PG is he was better at not turning the ball over and got the ball past half court in less time because it was pointless(and maybe more dangerous) to full court pressure him. One other thing, SS was also great at using the full 10 seconds to get the ball past half court when we needed to run clock for the same reason.

I think what makes BRob so difficult to pin point is he was THE MAN for most of his time here while both Scooch and Jalen had other players with enough basketball talent to take some of the pressure off and let them play a more well-rounded game. But I do remember always feeling that BRob would've been an all-american if we had someone like Scooch, Jalen or yes, Meacham being the quarterback of the offense. But we never really had that for him(other than when he and Meacham were both Freshman) and he had to play PG by necessity. And here's what we'll never know but if he had more help and became that AA I thought he could, he might have been drafted and because a team had more invested in him, given a quicker and more patient start in the NBA.

Oh and one more rating that I left off originally: FT shooting BRob>JC>SS

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 This was not a knock on JC, but SS was a pure PG to me and JC is more hybrid. Seems when JC doesn't score, he has a bad game, because what makes him so great and crucial for the Flyers is his all around offense more so than his ball handling skills. SS could have a day of scoring minimal points, and still have a great game. Not so with JC. And SS rarely ever faced full court pressure because it was pointless as he could not be trapped. And what's crazy is he could do so at such a slower pace. Methodical pace if you will. I guess my main reason for putting SS over JC as a pure PG is he was better at not turning the ball over and got the ball past half court in less time because it was pointless(and maybe more dangerous) to full court pressure him. One other thing, SS was also great at using the full 10 seconds to get the ball past half court when we needed to run clock for the same reason.

I didn’t take it as a slam at all. We named our puppy Scoochie a few years ago so we loved him a lot. When Jalen first got here he immediately reminded me of SS so I have been comparing the 2 ever since.

What I’ve hard a time with is separating the aspects you pointed out to not see JC as hands down better because of his more offensive prowess and consistency. What made Scoochie so great (facilitator first) was what made me give Jalen a solid nod. I always felt Scoochie was at times too unselfish - especially when the team needed his scoring.

We didn’t see enough of the Davidson OT type games over the years even though I believe the capability was there more regularly.

Your analysis was great as it allowed me to look at things differently especially in the NBA context of this post. Either way, we have had a great 8 year run with both these guys.

I hope that JC can find a way down the line to live his dream and to do it playing with Obi. He’s been one of the all time great players and representatives of the university.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer I didn’t take it as a slam at all. We named our puppy Scoochie a few years ago so we loved him a lot. When Jalen first got here he immediately reminded me of SS so I have been comparing the 2 ever since. What I’ve hard a time with is separating the aspects you pointed out to not see JC as hands down better because of his more offensive prowess and consistency. What made Scoochie so great (facilitator first) was what made me give Jalen a solid nod. I always felt Scoochie was at times too unselfish - especially when the team needed his scoring. We didn’t see enough of the Davidson OT type games over the years even though I believe the capability was there more regularly. Your analysis was great as it allowed me to look at things differently especially in the NBA context of this post. Either way, we have had a great 8 year run with both these guys. I hope that JC can find a way down the line to live his dream and to do it playing with Obi. He’s been one of the all time great players and representatives of the university.

It's difficult to quantify, because there are so many factors. I mean, we are still kind of high because of last year, but the two previous years, JC wasn't really talked about as one of the great PGs in basketball. Who knows what happens if you gave Scoochie an Obi Toppin to play with. And Scoochie did lead us(quarterback us to be clearer) as a starter to 3 straight NCAA tournaments while being a key backup in his first season to Price.

When going into a game during Scooch's 3 years as a starter, we usually felt to be successful, we needed scoring from Pierre, Kendall, Jordan/Charles and plenty of fast break transition baskets(many coming from Kyle). Scooch was there to fill in the blanks sort of as points go. Sometimes we needed 20 from him, sometimes we only needed 6. With JC, we need him to put up double digits regardless. He's always been a top 2 scoring option.

But as you said, last 8 seasons, we've been covered at PG pretty well, actually 10 if you add in 2 seasons of Dillard(who I believe was a fantastic PG until he tried to become what JC and BRob actually are/were and that's the goto offensive option).

[CvilleFlyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 It's difficult to quantify, because there are so many factors. I mean, we are still kind of high because of last year, but the two previous years, JC wasn't really talked about as one of the great PGs in basketball. Who knows what happens if you gave Scoochie an Obi Toppin to play with. And Scoochie did lead us(quarterback us to be clearer) as a starter to 3 straight NCAA tournaments while being a key backup in his first season to Price. When going into a game during Scooch's 3 years as a starter, we usually felt to be successful, we needed scoring from Pierre, Kendall, Jordan/Charles and plenty of fast break transition baskets(many coming from Kyle). Scooch was there to fill in the blanks sort of as points go. Sometimes we needed 20 from him, sometimes we only needed 6. With JC, we need him to put up double digits regardless. He's always been a top 2 scoring option. But as you said, last 8 seasons, we've been covered at PG pretty well, actually 10 if you add in 2 seasons of Dillard(who I believe was a fantastic PG until he tried to become what JC and BRob actually are/were and that's the goto offensive option).

I am hoping Malachi Smith continues the trend next season and we can extend that good streak of PG's from 10 to 14!

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer I am hoping Malachi Smith continues the trend next season and we can extend that good streak of PG's from 10 to 14!

I know I shouldn't post this, but I guess it could be 11 to 15 if we consider that Staten was a real good PG with too much baggage.

[Gazoo]

Crutcher plays suprisingly good defense. . . when he wants to. Frankly, Crutcher looks bored to me.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Crutcher plays suprisingly good defense. . . when he wants to. Frankly, Crutcher looks bored to me.

I haven't watched many games of other teams but I'd imagine with hardly any fans in the stands that plenty of players are feeling that way. Especially with 13K plus per game in normal times.

[Chris R]

JALEN/SCOOCHIE career stats:

GAMES: 103/138

PTS: 1344/1289
PPG: 13.0/9.3
RPG: 3.5/2.7
AST: 514/498
APG: 5.0/3.6
STLS: 90/172
FG%: .443/.429
3PTFG: .378/.368
FT%: .774/.715

[AZFlyer85]

Originally Posted by Chris R JALEN/SCOOCHIE career stats: GAMES: 103/138 PTS: 1344/1289 PPG: 13.0/9.3 RPG: 3.5/2.7 AST: 514/498 APG: 5.0/3.6 STLS: 90/172 FG%: .443/.429 3PTFG: .378/.368 FT%: .774/.715

These numbers prove that Clutcher is a NBA prospect. His work on the DEEP outside shot fits perfectly into many NBA offenses. He may not get drafted, but he will get a good look at in someone's NBA camp. Right place, right time, and he will be in the NBA.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Chris R JALEN/SCOOCHIE career stats: GAMES: 103/138 PTS: 1344/1289 PPG: 13.0/9.3 RPG: 3.5/2.7 AST: 514/498 APG: 5.0/3.6 STLS: 90/172 FG%: .443/.429 3PTFG: .378/.368 FT%: .774/.715

While the numbers favor JC and I agree he's a better player, I still believe that SS was the better PG/Quarterback. And the stat you left off that tilts it mostly for me is that SS averaged 1.8 TOVs a game while Jalen averages 2.4.

So let's take the two most commonly looked at stats by a PG. Assists vs TOVs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a single TOV is more a negative than a single assist is positive because a turnover means you lost a possession while an assist does not mean you saved a possession. If you miss out on an assist, you still might get the points on that possession via some other route. But if you turn it over, you lost any chance of points for that possession and doubly bad is lots of them turn into easy layups for the opposition.

Also, the assist per game stat is misleading. Yes, Jalen has the edge over Scooch, but realistically not by that much. It's skewed by the fact Jalen played 31 minutes and Scooch played 17.3 minutes a game as freshmen. and yes, that does effect the turnover stat also, but in seasons 2 through 4 when they both were starters, Scooch edges him out as the better ball protector.

But I've got to admit, I never ever would've thought that SS had that many more steals than JC. While I don't think of JC as some defensive phenom, I didn't think SS was that much better. But this stat helps close the gap as far as all around player(not enough to over take JC as all around player) because as negative as a turnover is, causing a turnover is equally positive.

One other thing I throw out there. What was the level of competition in A10 from 2013-2017 compared to 2017-2021? My opinion is that it was stronger, but I'm sure others might feel differently.

So again, I stand by my ranking that as far the main PG responsibilities go, SS>JC but as far as all around skills go, JC>SS.

[SC_Flyer]

Added one glaring omission:

JALEN/SCOOCHIE career stats:

GAMES: 103/138

PTS: 1344/1289
PPG: 13.0/9.3
RPG: 3.5/2.7
AST: 514/498
APG: 5.0/3.6
STLS: 90/172
FG%: .443/.429
3PTFG: .378/.368
FT%: .774/.715
Historically Bad Flops: 0/1

[Swampy Meadows]

Scooch didn't flop, he was shot:

https://larrybrownsports.com/college...e-video/257975

(Video no longer plays, unfortunately)

[SC_Flyer]

It was the 2nd gunman...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F33k-lTb4Q

[hawkoooo]

B-Rob over all, but that's a weird comparison because he isn't a true PG. Gun to my head Scoochie vs Jalen I'd probably go Jalen but man is that a tough call. This is a "dream team" hypothetical though so it doesn't matter who I pick, the other will just come off the bench

[SeasonTicketFan]

It has been great to have outstanding point guards for 8 consecutive years. Granted Scoochie was not the main point guard early in his freshman season.

The stats of the two guards does reflect the quality of the teams. Scoochie had an outstanding team for four consecutive years and was asked to do a bit less than Jalen. Offense was distributed which made Scoochie's job a bit easier.

Jalen played on a very weak and thin team his freshman year and was asked to do a lot. The team was more balance his sophomore year His junior year was some of the best if not best team in UD history, so his load was very balanced. This year the depth and experience and probably talent is a bit thin.

Scoochie had to start the offense. Jalen has often had to start and finish much more.

[steverino015]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo B-Rob over all, but that's a weird comparison because he isn't a true PG. Gun to my head Scoochie vs Jalen I'd probably go Jalen but man is that a tough call. This is a "dream team" hypothetical though so it doesn't matter who I pick, the other will just come off the bench

none of them will just come off the bench!
we play Scoochie, Jalen and BRob
at the same time...

Go Flyers!

[AZFlyer85]

The thread has gone in a different direction. My original point was that, in my opinion, Jalen salvaged his professional prospects with his national TV performance against Davidson. His market value was declining, and I'm sure that he has been crossed off many of the preseason award lists that he is on. I think he has a good shot at making a team in the NBA.

[Fudd]

This thread makes me think of those "Decade Dream Team" or "Best Players of the Last 20 Years at Each Position" threads that we used to have.

It makes me think about the success of the program for the last 10 years. One of my kids was born in the year of the Elite Eight. That period has seen a lot of success for UDMBB. There have been some very good players and teams in recent history.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by SC_Flyer It was the 2nd gunman... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F33k-lTb4Q

In our recent win over Davidson, the announcer was shocked by the depth of Jalen's
one 3 pt make. He pointed out it was attempted and made from the second D in DAVIDSON. (on their home floor).

In that UTube clip above Scoochie made one on the same DAVIDSON floor, and sure enough it was from the second D on that same floor!

[CE80]

Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 Clutcher saved his profesional basketball career. He played like an NBA quality guard tonight. A few more of these and he might get drafted.

Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 The thread has gone in a different direction. My original point was that, in my opinion, Jalen salvaged his professional prospects with his national TV performance against Davidson. His market value was declining, and I'm sure that he has been crossed off many of the preseason award lists that he is on. I think he has a good shot at making a team in the NBA.

I think even prior to the Davidson game, there was enough tape and eyes on Jalen that one game and even this “different “ COVID season wouldn’t change opinions much. I think the T. J. McConnell comparison is a good one. I don’t think Jalen has enough freakish athletic ability/talent to get drafted. Only 60 players get drafted. I do think that he has enough talent and high enough basketball IQ to get a legitimate shot at the NBA.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by CE80 I think even prior to the Davidson game, there was enough tape and eyes on Jalen that one game and even this “different “ COVID season wouldn’t change opinions much. I think the T. J. McConnell comparison is a good one. I don’t think Jalen has enough freakish athletic ability/talent to get drafted. Only 60 players get drafted. I do think that he has enough talent and high enough basketball IQ to get a legitimate shot at the NBA.

This is most likely true. As you say, only 60 get drafted. But to take that further, very, very few are seniors. And a decent portion are from other countries that we just don't know who they are yet. I don't see it.

Here's a few questions. What's the odds of : Crutcher getting drafted. McKinley Wright getting drafted. Crutcher and Wright getting drafted. They really are similar in stats and Wright's gotten the best of the matchup two out of two times.

[CT Flyer]

As someone else mentioned once, I think in a another thread, if Marcus Howard and Myles Powell didn't get drafted last year, that probably doesn't bode well for Jalen's chances of being drafted. Picking up with a team as a fee agent signee might be a different story.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by CE80 I think even prior to the Davidson game, there was enough tape and eyes on Jalen that one game and even this “different “ COVID season wouldn’t change opinions much. I think the T. J. McConnell comparison is a good one. I don’t think Jalen has enough freakish athletic ability/talent to get drafted. Only 60 players get drafted. I do think that he has enough talent and high enough basketball IQ to get a legitimate shot at the NBA.

Kostas says hello at #60. Miracles do happen and I called that one. Jalen has a chance with enough games left to possibly move the needle. But he has to help the Flyers excel and steal some headlines the remainder of this season.

[steve]

Kostas is 6'10" with athletic skills and length. Far different from JC in a game played largely by big men.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by steve Kostas is 6'10" with athletic skills and length. Far different from JC in a game played largely by big men.

Also, he was only a Sophomore. And most importantly there's nobody out there named Giannis Crutcher that I know of.

[Flyer 86]

Scooch didnt start til late in Season 1 I believe.

Also SS brought the ball up and set up the offense . Broke presses. So his hands were pretty full. Whereas Crutch had lots of help the past 2 years and it's a MUCH different offense each run/ran.

Scooch coulda scored a few more per game.



BROB best shooter BY far.
Ss best true pg.
Crutch best all around.

I'd take Crutch if only 1 allowed.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 Scooch didnt start til late in Season 1 I believe. Also SS brought the ball up and set up the offense . Broke presses. So his hands were pretty full. Whereas Crutch had lots of help the past 2 years and it's a MUCH different offense each run/ran. Scooch coulda scored a few more per game. BROB best shooter BY far. Ss best true pg. Crutch best all around. I'd take Crutch if only 1 allowed.

Finally,someone who agrees with my ratings lol

Scoochie started only one game during his freshman season against Illinois St. in one of those all too often shocking early season losses after we were either in the top 25 or knocking on the door.

But not starting was a result of having a great ball handler in Khari Price to bring him up slower. Jalen had to start because, well, okay I'll say it, we only had John Crosby.

I do believe that Scoochie was a better player in his first two seasons than Jalen was in his. Especially his sophomore season when he was the only real PG on the team and we only had 7 scholarship players. Scoochie's rise was a nice smooth gradual improvement while Jalen's was one of big leaps each season.

[steverino015]

this thread has gone in a different
direction, but I am enjoying it.. back
to Jalen, he has to turn it on to
another level like I know he can and
sustain it... rest of the season will
tell.. but, there isn't too much I
think Jalen Crutcher CANNOT do...

Go Flyers!

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by steverino015 this thread has gone in a different direction, but I am enjoying it.. back to Jalen, he has to turn it on to another level like I know he can and sustain it... rest of the season will tell.. but, there isn't too much I think Jalen Crutcher CANNOT do... Go Flyers!

Then I want to see a between the legs slam.

[MikeFlyer]

Lots of mistake picks at 60.

[steverino015]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Then I want to see a between the legs slam.

Then, I want to see a high level
performance for the rest of the season

Go Flyers!

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Finally,someone who agrees with my ratings lol I do believe that Scoochie was a better player in his first two seasons than Jalen was in his. Especially his sophomore season when he was the only real PG on the team and we only had 7 scholarship players. Scoochie's rise was a nice smooth gradual improvement while Jalen's was one of big leaps each season.

I also agree with your ratings...however I'm not sure Scoochie was a better player than Jalen in his first two years.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I also agree with your ratings...however I'm not sure Scoochie was a better player than Jalen in his first two years.

I still believe Scooch was the better player in his first 2 seasons.

But after watching those highlights against SLU, I've changed my opinion as far as overall ratings.

I am now convinced that Jalen brings more to the table than B-Rob. Jalen is like a great pitcher in baseball that constantly makes one play/pitch set up his next play/pitch.

He shoots the long three which draws the D out the next time. He then drives and finds Mustapha all alone in the corner. He then drives and gets a layup. He then does a couple jukes and finds himself another open three. In the Jalen vs SLU highlight video, you can see how each shot makes the defender so off-balance and sets up for the next shot or assist. A couple times, he picks up his dribble and the D backs off to make sure he has nobody to pass to and he's like "Oh I'm all alone" and nails the open 25 foot three.

Check out this highlight video and notice how every thing he does loosens up the defense for him to do something else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ8r...r9xXnwN8odOkqw

Forget B-Rob and Scoochie, this guy is Johnny Davis and Donald Smith combined.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[TX Flyer]

I’d take brob all day long. He was not a pg in the same sense as crutcher or Scoochie. He also didn’t have the same supporting cast the other do/did

[San Diego Flyer]

Just one man's opinion, but as long as we are reaching back in time, I would take Johnny Davis all day long.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Just one man's opinion, but as long as we are reaching back in time, I would take Johnny Davis all day long.

Okay, you got me thinking, would I really take JD over JC, SS and BRob?
The answer is NO and here's why. In 750 NBA games, he made 33 3-point shots out of 187 attempts for a .176 . He didn't have to shoot from that distance with the Flyers and he never did. So, without the 3 point line, yeah, I'd take JD every time. With it, he gets behind JC and B-Rob in the line.

[maddog07]

Davis was in a whole other league defensively. That’s the difference. SS and Crutcher will not make any impact at the next level. JD won a world championship. Had he stayed for his senior year he would likely be the Flyer’s 2nd highest scorer ever. He was a better player.
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[PalmBeachFlyer]

No disrespect intended but JD period. Hus game would be be just as dynamic today. Maybe more so with his ability to get to the rim.

[Swampy Meadows]

Watch the film of the UD/UCLA triple overtime thriller. The Bruins never employed the vaunted “UCLA Press” described here:

https://vault.si.com/.amp/vault/1965...anics-them-all

Why?

Johnny Davis.
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[CT Flyer]

And where does Negele Knight fit in this conversation?

[steve]

Johnny Davis hands down. A tremendous athlete amongst being a multi-year NBA starter. Elite speed and jumping ability with a great mid-range game and an ability to get to the bucket against anybody. There ain't been a UD guard outside of Knight that has come even remotely close to being that type of basketball player.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Okay, you got me thinking, would I really take JD over JC, SS and BRob? The answer is NO and here's why. In 750 NBA games, he made 33 3-point shots out of 187 attempts for a .176 . He didn't have to shoot from that distance with the Flyers and he never did. So, without the 3 point line, yeah, I'd take JD every time. With it, he gets behind JC and B-Rob in the line.

Speed kills. You are good with stats Smitty. I think you could prove there are no unemployed black teens in America given enough time and wine.

Davis had all the intangibles. He proved that his second round draft pick was no fluke.

Johnny Davis all day long.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer And where does Negele Knight fit in this conversation?

In my book it's Davis, Roberts, Knight, and then all the rest.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer In my book it's Davis, Roberts, Knight, and then all the rest.

Donald Smith???

[Buckleyma]

How about Sedric Toney in this discussion of top point guards in Flyer history. He took his game to the NBA, as well.
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[CT Flyer]

I didn't see Davis or Smith so I can't rank them, but of the other four I'd take Knight.

[The Fly]

Originally Posted by rollo Donald Smith???

We’ve never had a better pure shooter than Donald Smith. He also had a terrific handle, but he was a bit undersized and couldn’t attack the basket like Johnny D. But those two together formed the best backcourt in UD history, and it isn’t close.

[SeasonTicketFan]

I would rate Johnny Davis as the best all around guard I ever saw at UD. His 3 point shot was not as good, but there was no 3 point shot in college during his time. The 3 point shot did not exist in the NBA for his first three years. So that long shot was not an emphasis given his speed and leaping ability.

He had blazing speed and incredible jumping abilities. He probably could have challenged Chris Wright for dunk counts if the NCAA did not have the Alcindor rule. He would jump high over the rim and then drop it in. He was called for a dunk a couple of times on his “drops” as a recall. His drops were dunks without dunking. He had incredible springs for a 6’2” guard.

I think Jalen has proven to be the best clutch point guard based on his career.

Davis, Two Smiths, Knight, Toney and Crutcher have all been outstanding guards. UD teams were much, much better with them in the back court

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer And where does Negele Knight fit in this conversation?

Second to JD.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by rollo Donald Smith???

Smitty was probably the greatest shooter in UD history, but he wasn’t a pure point guard: he was just built like one. Of all the pure PGs, I’d rate JD first. True, his outside shot was suspect, but it was a totally different game 30+ years ago. His explosiveness was legendary. I’ll never forget the cover of the Media Guide that showed him blocking the shot of Otis Birdsong (the great Houston Cougar and Kansas City King), and the top of his head was even with the bottom of the backboard! At 6’2”! I’ve never had a beer that had that great of hops!
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Speed kills. You are good with stats Smitty. I think you could prove there are no unemployed black teens in America given enough time and wine. Davis had all the intangibles. He proved that his second round draft pick was no fluke. Johnny Davis all day long.

JD was better compared to the era in which he played. I just think that in today's game, both college and pros, it wouldn't play out as well because the 3 point shot is more important. I don't follow the NBA, but I'm guessing there aren't many point guards if any, that shoot under 20 percent from behind the arc.

I loved JD and he certainly proved to me how important a great PG can be when he took a team that had about .500 records two previous seasons to almost stopping UCLA's 7 straight national championship streak as a freshman. And as PGs go, I certainly think he's the greatest in UD history based on the rules of the game at which they play.

I just think his game wouldn't play out as well today. He had a great 10 to 15 foot jump shot, but analytics say that's not useful in today's game.

Think about how effective Jalen Crutcher would be if he only shot 20 percent from the 3 point line?

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 JD was better compared to the era in which he played. I just think that in today's game, both college and pros, it wouldn't play out as well because the 3 point shot is more important. I don't follow the NBA, but I'm guessing there aren't many point guards if any, that shoot under 20 percent from behind the arc. I loved JD and he certainly proved to me how important a great PG can be when he took a team that had about .500 records two previous seasons to almost stopping UCLA's 7 straight national championship streak as a freshman. And as PGs go, I certainly think he's the greatest in UD history based on the rules of the game at which they play. I just think his game wouldn't play out as well today. He had a great 10 to 15 foot jump shot, but analytics say that's not useful in today's game. Think about how effective Jalen Crutcher would be if he only shot 20 percent from the 3 point line?

In the games of Johnny's era, the 3 point range shot was anomaly as a much lower percentage shot for the same amount of points. Donald Smith was a rarity.

I believe that if the 3 point shot was as valuable as today, he would have worked more on that part of the game and shot a much higher percentage. He had excellent form and release. No doubt in my mind.

It is hard to dis him for something that was not as important. Kind of like punishing Babe Ruth for using a heavier bat than the modern baseball players.

[The Fly]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 I'll never forget the cover of the Media Guide that showed him blocking the shot of Otis Birdsong (the great Houston Cougar and Kansas City King), and the top of his head was even with the bottom of the backboard! At 6’2”! I’ve never had a beer that had that great of hops! Posted via Mobile Device

I don’t remember that media guide, but I remember the one showing Johnny D blocking a shot by 7-1 Tree Rollins of Clemson. Same deal — head above the rim. Amazing athlete. Had Smitty had a freshman season on varsity and Davis a senior season, Chapman might have been looking up at both for all-time points scored. Smitty for sure.

[maddog07]

Seems we are forgetting Cohill!!
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan In the games of Johnny's era, the 3 point range shot was anomaly as a much lower percentage shot for the same amount of points. Donald Smith was a rarity. I believe that if the 3 point shot was as valuable as today, he would have worked more on that part of the game and shot a much higher percentage. He had excellent form and release. No doubt in my mind. It is hard to dis him for something that was not as important. Kind of like punishing Babe Ruth for using a heavier bat than the modern baseball players.

And I would agree with you except when he went to the NBA his three point shooting was terrible with no significant improvement. Since the NBA had the 3 point rule, it would make sense that if he could improve upon it, he would've.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by The Fly I don’t remember that media guide, but I remember the one showing Johnny D blocking a shot by 7-1 Tree Rollins of Clemson. Same deal — head above the rim. Amazing athlete. Had Smitty had a freshman season on varsity and Davis a senior season, Chapman might have been looking up at both for all-time points scored. Smitty for sure.

I’ve loved watching SS and JC these last 8 years - both great PG’s and similar in a lot of ways. There have been a ton of really good pg’s at UD over the years. Most under-rated in my opinion was Kevin Conrad-who did literally everything the legend DD asked him to do at a stellar level. ‘Jack Zimmerman was also very solid.

Best pg of all time? Sorry, goes to Johnny Davis - yes acknowledge his low 3 point shot but as other mentioned that was a different era and a different game- only the globetrotters were known for 3 point shooting. Johnny would have been top 2-3 or maybe tops in scoring all time had he stayed at UD for his last year before declaring hardship. Still despite all of that, my favorite guard of all time is Donald Smith who could go into a shooting zone at any time and was unstoppable when he did. So as someone else mentioned Johnny D and Smitty was the best backcourt of all time.
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 I’ve loved watching SS and JC these last 8 years - both great PG’s and similar in a lot of ways. There have been a ton of really good pg’s at UD over the years. Most under-rated in my opinion was Kevin Conrad-who did literally everything the legend DD asked him to do at a stellar level. ‘Jack Zimmerman was also very solid. Best pg of all time? Sorry, goes to Johnny Davis - yes acknowledge his low 3 point shot but as other mentioned that was a different era and a different game- only the globetrotters were known for 3 point shooting. Johnny would have been top 2-3 or maybe tops in scoring all time had he stayed at UD for his last year before declaring hardship. Still despite all of that, my favorite guard of all time is Donald Smith who could go into a shooting zone at any time and was unstoppable when he did. So as someone else mentioned Johnny D and Smitty was the best backcourt of all time. Posted via Mobile Device

If Davis and Smith was our all time best backcourt, and I agree it is, what would be our 2nd? Could it also be Davis and Smith?

[tirebiter]

Have to at least mention Bobby Joe Hooper in this conversation.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by tirebiter Have to at least mention Bobby Joe Hooper in this conversation.

Hooper and Gottschall was a pretty darn good backcourt.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Davis average less than one 3 point attempt per game during his NBA career. That would indicate to me it was still not a point of emphasis. Many coaches did not fully embrace 3 point shooting in the offense. Coach Donoher was one.

I get it. His numbers were bad, but I would have a hard time not making him the best guard or in the top 2 to play for UD.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Davis average less than one 3 point attempt per game during his NBA career. That would indicate to me it was still not a point of emphasis. Many coaches did not fully embrace 3 point shooting in the offense. Coach Donoher was one. I get it. His numbers were bad, but I would have a hard time not making him the best guard or in the top 2 to play for UD.

No, that's not what I meant, yes, he's one of the best of all time and I cannot take that away from him. He fit what was needed for the Flyers and college basketball from 1973-1976. I'm just saying, if I had to pick a guy to play in today's game with the skills they bring to the table, I take Jalen. Can you imagine what this team would look like without Jalen's 3 point skills?

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer And where does Negele Knight fit in this conversation?

I'll take Johnny Davis non stop, he was amazing.

Velvet was a complete player. Always seems to be forgotten.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Jeff I'll take Johnny Davis non stop, he was amazing. Velvet was a complete player. Always seems to be forgotten.

Velvet forgotten? Not a chance. The reason he's not mentioned in this thread is he wasn't a guard.

[Runnin' Rebel]

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6uQAA...zai/s-l400.jpg

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6uQAA...zai/s-l400.jpg

Yep. That’s the one. It was on the front of the 1975-76 Media Guide, IIRC. And this just proves that Johnny D would win a tip-off against Jordy (though I still love the big fella).
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[rollo]

[flybye]

Jonny D....Donald Smith and Negele Knight best 3 guards by a wide margin.

[Buster Goode]

I love Scoochie, but Jalen > Scoochie. It's not very close.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flybye Jonny D....Donald Smith and Negele Knight best 3 guards by a wide margin.

Not going to disagree with you, but kind of funny that our best guards gave us a record of 134-122 combined.

1971-72 13-13 Smith
72-73 13-13 Smith
73-74 20-9 Smith and Davis
74-75 10-16 Davis
75-76 14-13 Davis
85-86 17-13 Knight
87-88 13-18 Knight
88-89 12-17 Knight
89-90 22-10 Knight

[flybye]

Different times...take a look at the schedule the older guys played...A10 full of easy games. Been Fortunate to see all of these players live and the 3 I mentioned were just a cut above.

[longtimefan]

Two of the best players in UD history never made the NCAA Tournament, Jim Paxson and Brian Roberts. That doesn't diminish their status.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by flybye Different times...take a look at the schedule the older guys played...A10 full of easy games. Been Fortunate to see all of these players live and the 3 I mentioned were just a cut above.

I actually think that Jalen's Flyers' career somewhat mirrors Negele Knight's. Both made meteoric rises throughout. Jalen seems to get better every week and season. If it continues, he might just finish his career the same way Knight did. One difference though, Negele put his amazing senior season together as a 5th year senior. Could you imagine what Jalen could do if he came back next year(and I know he won't).

I'd also like to say that while the schedule might be easier as far the talent of the teams we play, playing within a conference brings familiarity where the lesser teams can give you fits. Back when we were independent, I doubt coaches on our schedule, gave as much thought over the course of the offseason and in season, what kind of strategy to employ against us, until we were the next game on their schedule. And it's much easier to get quality film on us(and everybody) to figure a way to minimize our talent advantage.