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02-18-2017, 09:22 PM
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Future HOFers
Thinking about all the men's basketball players deserving of going into the HOF that have played since B-Rob.
It took almost 9 years since B-Rob's final game to get him in and he's probably the best player since Velvet. Since B-Rob's final game, I think CW, CJ, DMO, JS, Pierre, Scooch, Kendall, Kyle and Cooke all should be headed there at some point. A case could be made for MJ, and Dillard also. And maybe to a lesser extent Vee.
The way the players trickle in, how in the world will we get all those players in?
I think UD is going to have to pick up the pace to honor those deserving and I'm guessing I won't be around to see all of them go in. It's a great problem to have, but the unprecedented success of the Flyers the past 8 seasons presents an interesting dilemma and if AM stays and looking at what we have coming in next year, this traffic jam is only going to get worse.
We've come a long way and it looks like it's not slowing down anytime soon.
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02-18-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I think UD is going to have to pick up the pace to honor those deserving
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I think they tried to get BR in earlier but due to conflicts with him playing were unable to get him to the arena until this year
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02-18-2017, 11:29 PM
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This is the Hall of Fame and not the pretty good player club. It has been highly selective. We only have about 60 players going back over 100 years.
I'm pretty certain Vee, MJ and Dillard are never going in. I doubt Kyle and Pollard and DMO make it. All nice players but not HOFer's.
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02-19-2017, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I think CW, CJ, DMO, JS, Pierre, Scooch, Kendall, Kyle and Cooke all should be headed there at some point. A case could be made for MJ, and Dillard also. And maybe to a lesser extent Vee.
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Uhh, yeah none of those players are going to make the HOF. Sibert is most deserving of the group due to his huge shots. But Chris Wright? What did he ever accomplish? Need to make the HOF something special and not just something every above average player can get into
Obviously BRob deserves it, as he is one of the best players in program history
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02-19-2017, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07
This is the Hall of Fame and not the pretty good player club. It has been highly selective. We only have about 60 players going back over 100 years.
I'm pretty certain Vee, MJ and Dillard are never going in. I doubt Kyle and Pollard and DMO make it. All nice players but not HOFer's.
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Jack Zimmerman, Ed Young, Anthony Corbitt, Kevin Conrad, Damon Goodwin, Ken May, Keith Waleskowski, Mark Ashman.
All Players that don't fall into the B-Rob, Donald Smith,Johnny Davis, Roosevelt Chapman, Don May, Johnny Davis categories of greatness yet are in the HOF.
I will argue vehemently that Scooch/Dillard>Conrad/Zimmerman, Pierre/Pollard/CJ>Young.
This has been the most successful period of 4 years in our Basketball history and it's because of great players. Yes, the stats aren't in the 20 points a game range but this is a new day and age. Kyle Davis is one of the greatest defensive players this team has ever had. DMO one of the greatest senior leaders ever. Back in the 1984-1985 era, a 2 year period of getting to the NCAA tourny, Young, Goodwin, Chapman, Colbert and Toney all made it to the HOF. Other than Chapman, I'll take the group I named in the last few years over those.
CJ is a certainty and I think CW will be too. If some that I mentioned don't deserve in, then we have quite a few players in there now that need to be pulled out.
Last edited by Smitty10; 02-19-2017 at 01:28 AM..
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02-19-2017, 01:21 AM
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Chris Wright - 3x MVP and career blocks leader.
In looking at the record books, I just noticed that Big Steve got the record for most blocks in a season last year. Wow - as a freshman.
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02-19-2017, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zmz723
Uhh, yeah none of those players are going to make the HOF. Sibert is most deserving of the group due to his huge shots. But Chris Wright? What did he ever accomplish? Need to make the HOF something special and not just something every above average player can get into
Obviously BRob deserves it, as he is one of the best players in program history
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None? Scooch? Pierre? are you crazy? This team has made 3 straight, going on 4, NCAA appearances and made an elite eight and you say "NONE"? What did Conrad/Young/Chapman/Toney/Goodwin/Colbert accomplish in their era that the players I just named didn't?
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02-19-2017, 02:03 AM
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Cant compare players from different generations. Game has changed, officiating has changed, the league has changed, the place where UD basketball is has changed. You have to evaluate the player within the time and context in which they played and how valuable they were to the success of the program at that time compared to other players in that same window.
If Don May played the way they call fouls nowadays, he'd average 35pts. If modern day Chris Wright played in the 1950s when offseason conditioning consisted of watching Jack LaLanne episodes on TV in between shifts at the Hudepohl factory, he'd have averaged 6 blocks per game.
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02-19-2017, 09:25 AM
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Kevin Dillard belongs in no Hall of Fame anywhere. Let alone ours.
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02-19-2017, 10:09 AM
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Not a player or coach, but Gary McCans belongs in the UD Athletic Hall of Fame. I know "they" don't like to put any more administrators in the HOF, but Gary should be an exception.
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02-19-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
Chris Wright - 3x MVP and career blocks leader.
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And led the team to it's first NCAA Tournament win in 20 years. Helped the team to a ranking of 14th in the country before he got hurt. Helped local recruiting tremendously. Brought needed national publicity to UD with his exciting style of play. Went to the post-season all four years (I know - the NIT doesn't count). Was a great example on and off the court.
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02-19-2017, 01:32 PM
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I would submit the class of SS, KP, and KD as deserving of some recognition. Individually, it's hard to make an overwhelming case for any, but there is no substitute for winning.
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02-19-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic
I would submit the class of SS, KP, and KD as deserving of some recognition. Individually, it's hard to make an overwhelming case for any, but there is no substitute for winning.
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Why stop there, add the rest of the starting lineup from the 2014-2015 season. Meaning DP and JS. What they accomplished in 2 seasons(2013-2014) beats out many already in the HOF.
I really think people are underestimating terribly what this era of Flyers have accomplished.
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02-19-2017, 03:29 PM
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Put Archie in now.
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02-19-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3
Kevin Dillard belongs in no Hall of Fame anywhere. Let alone ours.
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Whoa what's with the hate here? KD was a special player for us who had to make up for a lack of talent or offensive creativity. One of the very few we've had who can pull up from anywhere when the shot clock is running out and the offense breaks down.
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02-19-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3
Kevin Dillard belongs in no Hall of Fame anywhere. Let alone ours.
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Dillard left a bad taste in my mouth his senior season but when putting up his numbers for 2 seasons against Zimmerman and Conrad, it's hard to make a case against. His Junior season is one of the greatest seasons of PG play I can remember of a Flyer.
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02-19-2017, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80
Put Archie in now.
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Because the numbers don't stand out like teams from the past where we had one or two players that put up all the big numbers, I figured the argument would be it's all Archie. But I'm not buying that. I think there's more to be said for players who give away big stats for playing team ball and winning. Of all the players that played a huge part in our 4 straight seasons of success, Pierre is the first name that stands out because of his versatility and absolutely deserves a place in the HOF, though due to off the court issues his senior season will probably be totally ignored. Heck, just the fact he was named all regional team in elite eight season should get him in easily.
As for Archie, his spot is already solidified. But great coaches get in due to finding and developing great players. And AM has done that like no other in such a short period of time.
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02-19-2017, 03:53 PM
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Let's not forget it's the Athletics Hall of Fame, not the Basketball Hall of Fame. There are other athletes from other sports that deserve to get in as well. We can't fill all the spots up with basketball players.
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02-19-2017, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic
I would submit the class of SS, KP, and KD as deserving of some recognition. Individually, it's hard to make an overwhelming case for any, but there is no substitute for winning.
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SS will finish with an overwhelming case. He's expected to be the all time leader in games played. His asst to to rate is outstanding. Should finish 2nd or 3rd all time. Already top 10 in career assists likely to finish around 8 or 9th. Has a chance to be top 10 in 3 pt made. Will be in top 30 with a chance to be in top 25 in scoring for career. Top 10 in steals. Add in his leadership, team and post season success. He's a mortal lock!!!!
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02-19-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Let's not forget it's the Athletics Hall of Fame, not the Basketball Hall of Fame. There are other athletes from other sports that deserve to get in as well. We can't fill all the spots up with basketball players.
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That does present a problem. Does it mean that there's only so many spots for all athletics and it was easier to get in as men's basketball player in the past than now? Does it mean that players that are obviously better than ones in the past get left off while the lesser players from the past get honored by history forever?
IMO, you up the number of inductees, you don't make the criteria more difficult. And let's be honest, Men's basketball pays the bills.
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02-19-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevinob15
Whoa what's with the hate here? KD was a special player for us who had to make up for a lack of talent or offensive creativity. One of the very few we've had who can pull up from anywhere when the shot clock is running out and the offense breaks down.
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If you were privy to Kevin Dillard's antics behind closed doors you would know EXACTLY where i was coming from.
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02-19-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3
If you were privy to Kevin Dillard's antics behind closed doors you would know EXACTLY where i was coming from.
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Well for the majority of pride users we are not privy to that info and just have to base our opinions off of basketball. I'm sure there are other guys who have been mentioned here with questionable behavior behind close doors as well. When there's not a whole lot of 'public' antics then all we're here to do is talk about his basketball.
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02-19-2017, 05:31 PM
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I like DMO as a person and he was a great leader for one year but if he gets in the HOF they might as well swing the door wide open and start giving out participation trophies at the front door.
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02-19-2017, 05:42 PM
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Any tennis players in the HOF?
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02-19-2017, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Thinking about all the men's basketball players deserving of going into the HOF that have played since B-Rob.
It took almost 9 years since B-Rob's final game to get him in and he's probably the best player since Velvet. Since B-Rob's final game, I think CW, CJ, DMO, JS, Pierre, Scooch, Kendall, Kyle and Cooke all should be headed there at some point. A case could be made for MJ, and Dillard also. And maybe to a lesser extent Vee.
The way the players trickle in, how in the world will we get all those players in?
I think UD is going to have to pick up the pace to honor those deserving and I'm guessing I won't be around to see all of them go in. It's a great problem to have, but the unprecedented success of the Flyers the past 8 seasons presents an interesting dilemma and if AM stays and looking at what we have coming in next year, this traffic jam is only going to get worse.
We've come a long way and it looks like it's not slowing down anytime soon.
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Hell, let them all in. Everyone gets medals.
LOL, Jesus. Did he just say Dillard? LOL.
Last edited by Buster Goode; 02-19-2017 at 06:21 PM..
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02-19-2017, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode
Hell, let them all in. Everyone gets medals.
LOL, Jesus. Did he just say Dillard? LOL.
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Give me an argument why Conrad and Zimmerman deserve it over Dillard? I watched all 3 play their UD careers and Conrad and Zimmerman couldn't touch Dillard as a PG. While I can take or leave Dillard, the fact is getting to the UD HOF is not as difficult as getting to a bigger college or pro HOF. Give me an argument as to why Young and Goodwin are in? They were both support players to Chapman, Toney and Colbert. The reason they are in is because of the success the team had while they were there which was minimal compared to the main guys I mentioned(not Dillard or MJ).
DMO should be a lock. Elite eights don't happen often for this team and he was the main reason we got one. Pierre as a 4 year starter who was key to the elite eight run as a sophomore and the backbone of the team the following year should be a lock also (but won't be due to the BS he got caught up in. Scooch, Pollard and KD should also be locks as the most successful class in history.
You people are certainly underrating what the program has accomplished the past 4 years.
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02-19-2017, 07:40 PM
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DMO averaged less than 7 pts., less than 6 rebounds, and 1.4 assists over his career. He scored 918 pts in his career. His shooting % was 45% and his FT % was 70%. He only averaged more than 10 pts per game his senior season.
Again, I like DMO and am not bashing him but those are not HOF numbers. I think if you even asked him, he would agree.
Last edited by springborofan; 02-19-2017 at 07:42 PM..
Reason: Added ppg stats per season
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02-19-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
And led the team to it's first NCAA Tournament win in 20 years. Helped the team to a ranking of 14th in the country before he got hurt. Helped local recruiting tremendously. Brought needed national publicity to UD with his exciting style of play. Went to the post-season all four years (I know - the NIT doesn't count). Was a great example on and off the court.
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Chris Wright absolutely belongs in the UD HOF- and i will boycott UD in the future if I find out he's not in consideration- He helped put UD back into national spot light. He continually gets mentioned during current game telecasts. That kind of pub is priceless...
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02-19-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan
DMO averaged less than 7 pts., less than 6 rebounds, and 1.4 assists over his career. He scored 918 pts in his career. His shooting % was 45% and his FT % was 70%. He only averaged more than 10 pts per game his senior season.
Again, I like DMO and am not bashing him but those are not HOF numbers. I think if you even asked him, he would agree.
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It doesn't take a career, a very successful senior season as leader of an elite eight team should do it. And there is so much goodwill with him. Staying after his Freshman season when his recruiting coach left and being key to turning around the program as a senior is not measured by stats.
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02-19-2017, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
It doesn't take a career, a very successful senior season as leader of an elite eight team should do it. And there is so much goodwill with him. Staying after his Freshman season when his recruiting coach left and being key to turning around the program as a senior is not measured by stats.
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Averaging less than 12 points as a senior-even on an elite 8 run-just doesn't qualify as HOF in my book. It's opinion from both of us. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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02-20-2017, 12:02 AM
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Why is George Jackson and Irvin Giddings not in the hall of fame?
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02-20-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by darrylskale
Why is George Jackson and Irvin Giddings not in the hall of fame?
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Might be tough to get Erv to a game. Isn't he serving time?
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02-20-2017, 10:22 AM
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I think Chris Wright is a shoo-in.
I think Pierre, Scoochie, and CJ also make it, but not as certain as with CW.
Kyle and Kendall have a good chance, too. This is the most winning class ever. To have no Hall of Famers would be absurd. To have only one would also be surprising.
Sibert, Cooke, or DMO might make it but it's rougher as none of them had more than 2 good years with the Flyers. It's kind of interesting, though, that "the leading scorer" of this most winning-class is the 2 years of Sibert plus the 2 years of Cooke.
MJ and Dillard won't make it.
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02-20-2017, 11:26 AM
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Are there specific criteria that are looked at, or do they just use the "eye test?"
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02-20-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
I think Chris Wright is a shoo-in.
I think Pierre, Scoochie, and CJ also make it, but not as certain as with CW.
Kyle and Kendall have a good chance, too. This is the most winning class ever. To have no Hall of Famers would be absurd. To have only one would also be surprising.
Sibert, Cooke, or DMO might make it but it's rougher as none of them had more than 2 good years with the Flyers. It's kind of interesting, though, that "the leading scorer" of this most winning-class is the 2 years of Sibert plus the 2 years of Cooke.
MJ and Dillard won't make it.
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Yeah, I think Sibert is a lock also. The more than 2 good year thing I assume doesn't exist since Sedric Toney and Dave Colbert got in pretty easily. I agree MJ and DIllard don't make it but Dillard might have a slight case as he really was a better PG than some already in.
And while I think Pierre is as deserving as anyone, I have a feeling that UD doesn't ever put him in due to his off the court issues his final season. I think that ties will probably be too broken and the University will be too embarrassed. If nothing else, DMO probably gets in as a replacement for DP.
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02-20-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Thinking about all the men's basketball players deserving of going into the HOF that have played since B-Rob.
It took almost 9 years since B-Rob's final game to get him in and he's probably the best player since Velvet. Since B-Rob's final game, I think CW, CJ, DMO, JS, Pierre, Scooch, Kendall, Kyle and Cooke all should be headed there at some point. A case could be made for MJ, and Dillard also. And maybe to a lesser extent Vee.
The way the players trickle in, how in the world will we get all those players in?
I think UD is going to have to pick up the pace to honor those deserving and I'm guessing I won't be around to see all of them go in. It's a great problem to have, but the unprecedented success of the Flyers the past 8 seasons presents an interesting dilemma and if AM stays and looking at what we have coming in next year, this traffic jam is only going to get worse.
We've come a long way and it looks like it's not slowing down anytime soon.
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I'm with the people who say it's the hall of FAME not the hall of GOOD.
CJ: no he averaged 12, 12, and 12 PPG in his soph - senior seasons. Never > 7 rebounds. Very close to the career averages of Chip Hare (no offense).
DMO: DMO and KD could win games with heart alone. But c'mon. 12 / 7 was his best year.
Pierre: Good but not great. 11 / 7.
Kendall: no. Injuries slowed him down but he's good / not great.
Kyle: See DMO.
Cooke: Good but not great? A definite maybe. Only if there's a tournament run.
MJ: good lord no. If all those dunks were layups you would not remember him. Less than 10 PPG and 4 rebounds, A/TO of 1.5 / 1.
Dillard: EDIT: a definite maybe.
Vee: no. 10 PPG and a few rebounds.
Notice a trend? A bunch of 10 - 12 PPG players. All good. All guys I'd love to have on any team. But these guys are just good, not great.
I think these guys belong in:
Scooch: Yes. Top 10 in many categories.
CW: yes. Tops in many categories.
JS: 16 PPG as a senior. All A10 first team. Top 10 in 3's despite only playing 2 years. Yes.
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02-20-2017, 01:45 PM
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I think that DMO's team should be inducted into the hall of fame with info on what they overcame and the contributions of each player.
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02-20-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian
I think that DMO's team should be inducted into the hall of fame with info on what they overcame and the contributions of each player.
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Love it. The individual stats may not have been spectacular, but that's because they were the embodiment of TrueTeam, particularly DMO.
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02-20-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
Love it. The individual stats may not have been spectacular, but that's because they were the embodiment of TrueTeam, particularly DMO.
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Hasn't this been about what Archie's teams have been all about? How many A10 player of the week have any of our guys won? Not many that I recall. It is like looking at Scooch vs Adams. Both do what their teams needs them to do but SBU needs Adams to score lots of points. To most, that is sexier than controlling a game.
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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02-20-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
I'm with the people who say it's the hall of FAME not the hall of GOOD.
CJ: no he averaged 12, 12, and 12 PPG in his soph - senior seasons. Never > 7 rebounds. Very close to the career averages of Chip Hare (no offense).
DMO: DMO and KD could win games with heart alone. But c'mon. 12 / 7 was his best year.
Pierre: Good but not great. 11 / 7.
Kendall: no. Injuries slowed him down but he's good / not great.
Kyle: See DMO.
Cooke: Good but not great? A definite maybe. Only if there's a tournament run.
MJ: good lord no. If all those dunks were layups you would not remember him. Less than 10 PPG and 4 rebounds, A/TO of 1.5 / 1.
Dillard: EDIT: a definite maybe.
Vee: no. 10 PPG and a few rebounds.
Notice a trend? A bunch of 10 - 12 PPG players. All good. All guys I'd love to have on any team. But these guys are just good, not great.
I think these guys belong in:
Scooch: Yes. Top 10 in many categories.
CW: yes. Tops in many categories.
JS: 16 PPG as a senior. All A10 first team. Top 10 in 3's despite only playing 2 years. Yes.
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You've always been about individual stats, which don't win games. Again, Conrad, Chapman, Young, Goodwin, Toney and Colbert all played between 1982 and 1986 and all made it to the HOF with 2 NCAA appearances(Conrad none) and 3 NCAA wins. There is no way Toney or Young fit your criteria. But it makes sense that the most successful teams should have the most HOF players. Winning is the bottom line is it not?
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02-20-2017, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
You've always been about individual stats, which don't win games. Again, Conrad, Chapman, Young, Goodwin, Toney and Colbert all played between 1982 and 1986 and all made it to the HOF with 2 NCAA appearances(Conrad none) and 3 NCAA wins. There is no way Toney or Young fit your criteria. But it makes sense that the most successful teams should have the most HOF players. Winning is the bottom line is it not?
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I've always been about individual stats?? Duh fuh are you talking about??
Regarding the guys who are already in: the point is not valid. You take a guy who scored 1,000 points when freshmen weren't allowed to play or before the shot clock and put him in, then you suddenly are required to put in every 1,000 point scorer? That makes no sense.
They were great players in the their day. Show them the love, that's fine. Roberts was a great player in his day. Chris Johnson, even when he was here, was not thought of as "great". Good? Oh, heck yeah. Exciting, a winner, lots of superlatives. But "great"? No, sorry. Seriously, 12 points per game. You can't stop him you can only hope to contain him to 12 points per game? He will dominate you on the boards (to the tune of 7 RPG)? No. He couldn't drive to his right. You're way off here.
Great teams are great teams. Enjoy them with enthusiasm. Great players may or may not be on great teams. You can have a great team player and that's all well and good. But nobody from the Elite 8 run, from the walkons / scout team to the leading scorer, automatically deserves to be in the HOF simply because they were there.
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02-20-2017, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
...as leader of an elite eight team should do it. And there is so much goodwill with him.
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If that criteria were used everywhere, Duke, UNC, Kentucky and a few other schools would have HOF's larger than the Arenas where they play.
IMRO, the HOF means you dominated a career and/or turned around a program. One season does not a HOFer make. Had I been elevated to King earlier and started the Royal Roundtable immediately, Devin Oliver would be a great Sir DMO...he's worthy of that and more. But HOF? Don't think so.
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02-20-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
If that criteria were used everywhere, Duke, UNC, Kentucky and a few other schools would have HOF's larger than the Arenas where they play.
IMRO, the HOF means you dominated a career and/or turned around a program. One season does not a HOFer make.
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Under that criteria, those schools now have so many "one and dones" that they may not have anyone left to induct!
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02-20-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80
Hasn't this been about what Archie's teams have been all about?
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Pretty much, which is why Archie is a good coach.
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02-20-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
If that criteria were used everywhere, Duke, UNC, Kentucky and a few other schools would have HOF's larger than the Arenas where they play.
IMRO, the HOF means you dominated a career and/or turned around a program. One season does not a HOFer make. Had I been elevated to King earlier and started the Royal Roundtable immediately, Devin Oliver would be a great Sir DMO...he's worthy of that and more. But HOF? Don't think so.
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Terrible argument. There's obviously a different criteria for UD HOF compared to Duke, UNC, KY. Do you think Toney, Young, Goodwin, Waleskowski etc makes it in any of those? Heck, I'm not sure Jim Paxson makes it in their HOF.
These players of today could easily put up the number some of you seem to think it takes to qualify. They don't because they don't need to because it's not the best path to wins.
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02-20-2017, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
Under that criteria, those schools now have so many "one and dones" that they may not have anyone left to induct!
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Don't all Universities require HOFers to graduate for consideration? That pretty much eliminates any HOF ceremonies at UK for a while.
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02-20-2017, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Terrible argument. There's obviously a different criteria for UD HOF compared to Duke, UNC, KY. Do you think Toney, Young, Goodwin, Waleskowski etc makes it in any of those? Heck, I'm not sure Jim Paxson makes it in their HOF.
These players of today could easily put up the number some of you seem to think it takes to qualify. They don't because they don't need to because it's not the best path to wins.
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Look you can go to Otterbein and be in their HOF, you don't have to be an NBA first rounder. But do you think Otterbein is inducting guys who never averaged more than 12 PPG and 7 RPG? Maybe if they have 8 or 10 assists per game. But these guys you listed just aren't the "WOW" kind of players.
You should have to have a stunning career to make the HOF.
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02-20-2017, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Look you can go to Otterbein and be in their HOF, you don't have to be an NBA first rounder. But do you think Otterbein is inducting guys who never averaged more than 12 PPG and 7 RPG? Maybe if they have 8 or 10 assists per game. But these guys you listed just aren't the "WOW" kind of players.
You should have to have a stunning career to make the HOF.
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I hate to repeat myself but: Sedric Toney, Ed Young, Damon Goodwin, Keith Waleskowski, Kevin Conrad, Jack Zimmerman.
What you think should be the HOF and what is the HOF are two different things unless you can tell me the above had stunning careers and pass a polygraph at the same time.
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02-21-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I hate to repeat myself but: Sedric Toney, Ed Young, Damon Goodwin, Keith Waleskowski, Kevin Conrad, Jack Zimmerman.
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Of that group, all but Kevin Conrad are easily deserving. I'm curious what Conrad did to get in in the HOF.
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02-21-2017, 08:11 AM
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Vee Sanford can make it for his shot vs. Ohio State alone, AFAIC. He could've literally sat down on the court for the remainder of his career, but that one shot was worth it.
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02-21-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I hate to repeat myself but: Sedric Toney, Ed Young, Damon Goodwin, Keith Waleskowski, Kevin Conrad, Jack Zimmerman.
What you think should be the HOF and what is the HOF are two different things unless you can tell me the above had stunning careers and pass a polygraph at the same time.
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KW finished his career 17th in career scoring. Of those ahead of him, only about 6 (I lost count) have more rebounds. He's only 64 rebounds behind Ryan Perryman, who is regarded around these parts as a rebounding MONSTER. What's wrong with you?
Ed Young was the 14th leading scorer when he graduated, and only played 19 games his senior season averaging 7.7 points. I wasn't following UD basketball back then, but, on the surface that looks like an injury--someone can correct me. But even putting that aside, 14th all time when he graduated isn't worth a sniff at the HOF?? I'm purely going on stats here because I did not watch him play.
And yes, you are correct that I would probably NOT agree with everyone who is in the HOF, but, there are 2 options: let in every other person who's stats are as underwhelming (your solution) or start being a little more selective (my solution). Kicking people out after the fact is not an available solution.
You see, what you're trying to do is un-induct people which is irrational. When the game changes and / or Roberts, Perryman, and Negele put up better numbers what are we supposed to do, drop the bottom 10% every year? You're married to an argument and you're not stepping back to objectively think about it. This is how everyone ends up with a trophy.
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02-21-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
KW finished his career 17th in career scoring. Of those ahead of him, only about 6 (I lost count) have more rebounds. He's only 64 rebounds behind Ryan Perryman, who is regarded around these parts as a rebounding MONSTER. What's wrong with you?
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Ryan Perryman also played on some bad teams that missed a lot of shots so there were many offensive rebounding opportunities compared to KW teams.
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02-21-2017, 11:32 AM
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From his HOF announcement
Originally Posted by rollo
Of that group, all but Kevin Conrad are easily deserving. I'm curious what Conrad did to get in in the HOF.
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Kevin Conrad `83-Basketball-1979-1983
Regarded as one of the toughest players ever to wear the Red and Blue, Kevin Conrad played in 106 games in his career. Of all of those 106, long-time members of the Flyer Faithful remember one performance by Conrad more than any other. That's the game when he played 62 out of a possible 65 minutes in leading UD to a five-overtime, 79-77 win over Providence.
Conrad is 42nd in career scoring at UD (983 points, 9.3 average), but is fifth among point guards. He is also fifth in career assists (498) and fourth in career average (4.70). He had two of the top three seasons in Flyer assists per game - 6.30 in 1981-82 and 6.17 in 1980-81 while guiding the Flyers to back-to-back NIT appearances.
Three Dayton guards accumulated 1,000 points and 500 assists in their careers, and Conrad likely fell one game short of becoming the fourth.
The scrappy floor leader from Glen Ellyn, Ill. recorded a then school-record 14 assists in three different games in his career. His 14 assists are still just one shy of the UD single-game record. He is one of five Flyer point guards to lead UD in assists in three different seasons. A hard-nosed defender, he is also 10th in career steals at UD (122).
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02-21-2017, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
KW finished his career 17th in career scoring. Of those ahead of him, only about 6 (I lost count) have more rebounds. He's only 64 rebounds behind Ryan Perryman, who is regarded around these parts as a rebounding MONSTER. What's wrong with you?
Ed Young was the 14th leading scorer when he graduated, and only played 19 games his senior season averaging 7.7 points. I wasn't following UD basketball back then, but, on the surface that looks like an injury--someone can correct me. But even putting that aside, 14th all time when he graduated isn't worth a sniff at the HOF?? I'm purely going on stats here because I did not watch him play.
And yes, you are correct that I would probably NOT agree with everyone who is in the HOF, but, there are 2 options: let in every other person who's stats are as underwhelming (your solution) or start being a little more selective (my solution). Kicking people out after the fact is not an available solution.
You see, what you're trying to do is un-induct people which is irrational. When the game changes and / or Roberts, Perryman, and Negele put up better numbers what are we supposed to do, drop the bottom 10% every year? You're married to an argument and you're not stepping back to objectively think about it. This is how everyone ends up with a trophy.
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I'm not trying to uninduct people. Just the opposite. But using your criteria, I'm making a point that it isn't what you say you expect it to be.
What's happening is team play wins games and you want to reward players on non-winning teams because those are the ones where individual stats stand out. Notice one of the all time great Flyers, Donald Smith, his stats went down on his only winning team, why do you thing that it? Notice the A10 players of the year. UD never seems to get one yet is in it's 4th very successful season in a row.
But let's talk about Kevin Conrad. Anyone who's watched both KC and Scoochie play will most likely tell you that Scooch is the better player. Yet Scooch's stats don't come near KCs.
Anybody want to tell me they'd rather have an Ed Young over DMO, Kendall Pollard or Dyshawn Pierre?
The forward position is key here. Back in the day before the 3 point line, a forward that could score from within 14 feet was worth more. Now they're taught that the shot is not a good value shot because point blank range is higher percentage and 3 point shots are higher value. If there was a 3 point shot back in the late 60s, Don May's stats go down, Bobby Hooper and Jimmy Gottshalls go up.
It's a different game now and if we go by the stats your looking for, most likely our HOFers would be from the least successful teams.
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02-21-2017, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07
Kevin Conrad `83-Basketball-1979-1983
Regarded as one of the toughest players ever to wear the Red and Blue, Kevin Conrad played in 106 games in his career. Of all of those 106, long-time members of the Flyer Faithful remember one performance by Conrad more than any other. That's the game when he played 62 out of a possible 65 minutes in leading UD to a five-overtime, 79-77 win over Providence.
Conrad is 42nd in career scoring at UD (983 points, 9.3 average), but is fifth among point guards. He is also fifth in career assists (498) and fourth in career average (4.70). He had two of the top three seasons in Flyer assists per game - 6.30 in 1981-82 and 6.17 in 1980-81 while guiding the Flyers to back-to-back NIT appearances.
Three Dayton guards accumulated 1,000 points and 500 assists in their careers, and Conrad likely fell one game short of becoming the fourth.
The scrappy floor leader from Glen Ellyn, Ill. recorded a then school-record 14 assists in three different games in his career. His 14 assists are still just one shy of the UD single-game record. He is one of five Flyer point guards to lead UD in assists in three different seasons. A hard-nosed defender, he is also 10th in career steals at UD (122).
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Ahem, if Scoochie Smith had a Velvet Chapman to hand the ball to, his assists would be every bit as impressive as Conrad's. That's a nice advantage to have when it comes to assists, handing a ball to a 6'4 forward who can shoot from outside or take the ball among the trees and get it through the hoop from all angles. Chapman was a superstar, everyone else other than maybe Toney were supporting cast.
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02-21-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
But let's talk about Kevin Conrad. Anyone who's watched both KC and Scoochie play will most likely tell you that Scooch is the better player. Yet Scooch's stats don't come near KCs.
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Scooch 1000+ career points. KC 983.
Scooch 465 assists entering play tonight. KC 498 for career.
Don't come near you say?
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02-21-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar
Scooch 1000+ career points. KC 983.
Scooch 465 assists entering play tonight. KC 498 for career.
Don't come near you say?
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Kevin Conrad played in 106 games. Scooch has already played in 132. Both were backups their freshman seasons. Yes, I'd say doesn't come near.
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02-21-2017, 01:57 PM
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Matter of opinion...and intangibles. Scooch quite obviously...a winner.
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02-21-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar
Matter of opinion...and intangibles. Scooch quite obviously...a winner.
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My point exactly. Scooch didn't put up the numbers yet is much the better player.
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02-21-2017, 02:55 PM
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Having watched every home game both Conrad and Scooch played, I would say they are both deserving of the HOF. Neither blow you away with stats, but they each have so many intangibles and are winners, Two players that I'm glad were/are Flyers. I wouldn't want to play against either of them.
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02-21-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe
Having watched every home game both Conrad and Scooch played, I would say they are both deserving of the HOF. Neither blow you away with stats, but they each have so many intangibles and are winners, Two players that I'm glad were/are Flyers. I wouldn't want to play against either of them.
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I could say the same thing about Kendall, Kyle and Pierre also. That's what happens with a True team.
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02-21-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
KW finished his career 17th in career scoring. Of those ahead of him, only about 6 (I lost count) have more rebounds. He's only 64 rebounds behind Ryan Perryman, who is regarded around these parts as a rebounding MONSTER. What's wrong with you?
Ed Young was the 14th leading scorer when he graduated, and only played 19 games his senior season averaging 7.7 points. I wasn't following UD basketball back then, but, on the surface that looks like an injury--someone can correct me. But even putting that aside, 14th all time when he graduated isn't worth a sniff at the HOF?? I'm purely going on stats here because I did not watch him play.
And yes, you are correct that I would probably NOT agree with everyone who is in the HOF, but, there are 2 options: let in every other person who's stats are as underwhelming (your solution) or start being a little more selective (my solution). Kicking people out after the fact is not an available solution.
You see, what you're trying to do is un-induct people which is irrational. When the game changes and / or Roberts, Perryman, and Negele put up better numbers what are we supposed to do, drop the bottom 10% every year? You're married to an argument and you're not stepping back to objectively think about it. This is how everyone ends up with a trophy.
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Ed Young was 14th in scoring at that time. What you don't mention is that Freshman only started playing 8 years prior to Young becoming a Flyer. What you also don't mention is 6 players who had played as Freshman prior to Young in those 8 years out scored him(one, Johnny Davis, who left after his Junior year). While it's nothing to sneeze at, it certainly isn't a very impressive stat, especially when you have to qualify it with "at that time".
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02-21-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Of that group, all but Kevin Conrad are easily deserving. I'm curious what Conrad did to get in in the HOF.
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So of that group, core players from a group that played in two NCAA tournaments and in one of those had a superstar(Velvet) deserve all those HOFers but this group who's getting ready to play in their 4th straight NCAA and already have two more wins in the dance, don't have hardly any? I guess if you go to UD, and want to leave a legacy, you best forego winning and rack up personal stats.
Now I know this isn't fair, but let me ask you. Who was the better player, Ed Young or Kendall Pollard?
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02-21-2017, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75
Vee Sanford can make it for his shot vs. Ohio State alone, AFAIC. He could've literally sat down on the court for the remainder of his career, but that one shot was worth it.
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Why not, that's the only reason I can think of that Ed Young got in.
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02-21-2017, 05:17 PM
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One difference between Conrad and Scooch is that Conrad gave everything he had to become a very good player on winning teams while Scooch sacrificed personal stats to make his team better.
It really is an exercise in futility to try and compare players from different eras.
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02-21-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe
One difference between Conrad and Scooch is that Conrad gave everything he had to become a very good player on winning teams while Scooch sacrificed personal stats to make his team better.
It really is an exercise in futility to try and compare players from different eras.
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In a 10 season period from 1977 through 1986 we had Paxson, Zimmerman, Conrad, Kanieski, Chapman, Toney, Goodwin, Young and Colbert all go to the HOF. All with a whopping 2 NCAA appearances and 3 total wins in the tournament. A period of time that had 2 of the greatest players to ever wear a UD uniform(Paxson and Chapman).
I'm being now told by other fans, in a 10 year period of 2008 through 2017, we have Roberts(the period only includes his senior year and the only player to be comparable to a Chapman and Paxson) and maybe nobody else. A period that we're going to have gone to 5 NCAA tournaments and at this point have 6 NCAA wins not to mention an NIT championship. SMH
Yes, you can compare across eras to some extent.
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02-21-2017, 05:59 PM
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I think you have to also include All Conference Awards along with their personal stats and team accomplishments. It's hard to argue to put a player in the HOF that the A-10 didn't recognize as premier player for their time.
CJ got the Chris Daniels Most Improved Award, but only Honorable Mention for all A-10 (twice). I'm surprised he never even made a Third Team.
Pierre made 2nd Team twice.
Cooke, Sibert, and CW were all First Team A-10 once.
To me Scooch is the real exception here. I personally think he's a slam dunk for the HOF but as far as I can tell he has never gotten Honorable Mention in the A-10?
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02-21-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I'm being now told by other fans, in a 10 year period of 2008 through 2017, we have Roberts(the period only includes his senior year and the only player to be comparable to a Chapman and Paxson) and maybe nobody else. A period that we're going to have gone to 5 NCAA tournaments and at this point have 6 NCAA wins not to mention an NIT championship. SMH
Yes, you can compare across eras to some extent.
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Well...those "other fans" are just wrong. I think Kendall, Scooch, Pierre, Wright, and Sibert are all automatics within the next 10-15 years. It probably will take Cooke, Kyle Davis, Chris Johnson longer, but I think they get in too. I'm going to pass on commenting on Dillard. After all, it took Damon Goodwin 24 years to get in. It took others like Kevin Conrad 26 years, Chris Harris 58 years, Sedric Toney 22 years, Jack Zimmerman 22 years, Bobby Joe Hooper 21 years. Heck, I was surprised to see that it took Ken May 24 years to get in.
The process might speed up a bit for Kendall and Scooch if we make a nice tournament run this year.
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02-22-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I'm not trying to uninduct people. Just the opposite. But using your criteria, I'm making a point that it isn't what you say you expect it to be.
What's happening is team play wins games and you want to reward players on non-winning teams because those are the ones where individual stats stand out. Notice one of the all time great Flyers, Donald Smith, his stats went down on his only winning team, why do you thing that it? Notice the A10 players of the year. UD never seems to get one yet is in it's 4th very successful season in a row.
But let's talk about Kevin Conrad. Anyone who's watched both KC and Scoochie play will most likely tell you that Scooch is the better player. Yet Scooch's stats don't come near KCs.
Anybody want to tell me they'd rather have an Ed Young over DMO, Kendall Pollard or Dyshawn Pierre?
The forward position is key here. Back in the day before the 3 point line, a forward that could score from within 14 feet was worth more. Now they're taught that the shot is not a good value shot because point blank range is higher percentage and 3 point shots are higher value. If there was a 3 point shot back in the late 60s, Don May's stats go down, Bobby Hooper and Jimmy Gottshalls go up.
It's a different game now and if we go by the stats your looking for, most likely our HOFers would be from the least successful teams.
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Ed Young was 14th in scoring at that time. What you don't mention is that Freshman only started playing 8 years prior to Young becoming a Flyer. What you also don't mention is 6 players who had played as Freshman prior to Young in those 8 years out scored him(one, Johnny Davis, who left after his Junior year). While it's nothing to sneeze at, it certainly isn't a very impressive stat, especially when you have to qualify it with "at that time".
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You're so far out into left field you're playing lacross now.
"At that time." Yes, at that time. Is there another criteria to use? "Hey Jordan Davis, just wanted to let you know you'll never be put in the HOF because even if you score 3,000 points and will be the all time leading scorer at UD at the time you graduate, we think maybe the NCAA will institute rule changes so someone else will score 4,000 someday so forget it. Sorry." Yes, at that time. It's what you have to base decisions on. When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do?
I'll tell you what you do, you argue against saying "at that time" and then turn right around and say "at that time there was no 3 point line". A diagram of your logic looks like cut spaghetti covered in diarrhea.
You want to put words in my mouth to say that ONLY bad teams have great players with big numbers. You make false assumptions and then attribute them to me. Brilliant. So let's play that out by looking at our friends down south.
2017 inductee Stanley Burrell: 1,600 career points is 13th all time, on teams that made the NCAA 3 times including the 2008 Elite 8, and according to the press release he was inducted for his defense not his offense. Are you saying that his teams were not successful, or are you saying 1,600 points is not an accomplishment?
2015 inductee Lionel Chalmers: 2 regular season A10 champs, 2 A10 tournament champs, Elite 8 appearance, 16th on the scoring list (AT THAT TIME), 9th in assists. Was his team unsuccessful or are his stats no good?
I didn't see any other teammates from those teams inducted. Because they were GOOD players, not GREAT players.
I could obviously go on because your argument is so off base. But the point is:
1. Sometimes great players are on bad teams so they put up gaudy numbers. They may or may not deserve in the HOF.
2. Sometimes great players are on good teams so they put up gaudy numbers. They may or may not deserve in the HOF.
3. Sometimes great teams lack any single great player, so no one puts up gaudy numbers. None of those people deserve in the HOF for being good.
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02-22-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
You're so far out into left field you're playing lacross now.
"At that time." Yes, at that time. Is there another criteria to use? "Hey Jordan Davis, just wanted to let you know you'll never be put in the HOF because even if you score 3,000 points and will be the all time leading scorer at UD at the time you graduate, we think maybe the NCAA will institute rule changes so someone else will score 4,000 someday so forget it. Sorry." Yes, at that time. It's what you have to base decisions on. When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do?
I'll tell you what you do, you argue against saying "at that time" and then turn right around and say "at that time there was no 3 point line". A diagram of your logic looks like cut spaghetti covered in diarrhea.
You want to put words in my mouth to say that ONLY bad teams have great players with big numbers. You make false assumptions and then attribute them to me. Brilliant. So let's play that out by looking at our friends down south.
2017 inductee Stanley Burrell: 1,600 career points is 13th all time, on teams that made the NCAA 3 times including the 2008 Elite 8, and according to the press release he was inducted for his defense not his offense. Are you saying that his teams were not successful, or are you saying 1,600 points is not an accomplishment?
2015 inductee Lionel Chalmers: 2 regular season A10 champs, 2 A10 tournament champs, Elite 8 appearance, 16th on the scoring list (AT THAT TIME), 9th in assists. Was his team unsuccessful or are his stats no good?
I didn't see any other teammates from those teams inducted. Because they were GOOD players, not GREAT players.
I could obviously go on because your argument is so off base. But the point is:
1. Sometimes great players are on bad teams so they put up gaudy numbers. They may or may not deserve in the HOF.
2. Sometimes great players are on good teams so they put up gaudy numbers. They may or may not deserve in the HOF.
3. Sometimes great teams lack any single great player, so no one puts up gaudy numbers. None of those people deserve in the HOF for being good.
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I'm really losing respect for you as a poster. Why would you cut off at 1986 when there was only data of 8 years similar to match instead of 2017 where we now have 40 years of Freshman playing varsity?
"When Roosevelt Chapman's career ended in 1984, he had the most career points ever." Do you see anything wrong with that statement? Let me explain it to you.
If I know nothing about this subject and am learning from you, I say to myself, hmm, he qualified it as of 1984. While impressive, I wonder who holds that record now. So I look it up and low and behold, Roosevelt Chapman still holds that record in 2017. You understated his accomplishment just like you using qualification to overstate Ed Young's.
While you are using 1986 to make your case look stronger, knowing that you're only using 8 years of equal data unlocks the fact you're trimming the stats to fit your agenda.
You're leaving things out in your argument. Because if you were being honest you would be looking at average points per game rather than total points. You just want to argue because you apparently can't watch a player's career and determine through your own eyes how much that player meant, you need stats. That's okay, some people need to use their fingers and toes to count to 20.
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02-22-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Because if you were being honest you would be looking at average points per game rather than total points.
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DMO averaged 6.94 ppg for his career. HOF?
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02-22-2017, 09:30 AM
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Ut oh, it's going to be a long wait until Friday.
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02-22-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
DMO averaged 6.94 ppg for his career. HOF?
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DMO was a great person, good player his senior year, but not a HOF. People keep saying he led us to the Elite 8. Vee hit the shot against OSU after Pierre's clutch FT's. In the Syracuse game, Sibert went crazy from 3. Against Stanford it was also Sibert with 18 leading the way and a breakout performance from freshman Kendall Pollard.
Good person, good leader, great representative of UD...Not a HOF.
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02-22-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I'm really losing respect for you as a poster. Why would you cut off at 1986 when there was only data of 8 years similar to match instead of 2017 where we now have 40 years of Freshman playing varsity?
"When Roosevelt Chapman's career ended in 1984, he had the most career points ever." Do you see anything wrong with that statement? Let me explain it to you.
If I know nothing about this subject and am learning from you, I say to myself, hmm, he qualified it as of 1984. While impressive, I wonder who holds that record now. So I look it up and low and behold, Roosevelt Chapman still holds that record in 2017. You understated his accomplishment just like you using qualification to overstate Ed Young's.
While you are using 1986 to make your case look stronger, knowing that you're only using 8 years of equal data unlocks the fact you're trimming the stats to fit your agenda.
You're leaving things out in your argument. Because if you were being honest you would be looking at average points per game rather than total points. You just want to argue because you apparently can't watch a player's career and determine through your own eyes how much that player meant, you need stats. That's okay, some people need to use their fingers and toes to count to 20.
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That's me, only focusing on total points in the career and ignoring average points per game. And, only focusing on points not assist, rebounds, etc.
Wait, what is this I see. . .
Originally Posted by Gazoo
I'm with the people who say it's the hall of FAME not the hall of GOOD.
CJ: no he averaged 12, 12, and 12 PPG in his soph - senior seasons. Never > 7 rebounds. Very close to the career averages of Chip Hare (no offense).
DMO: DMO and KD could win games with heart alone. But c'mon. 12 / 7 was his best year.
Pierre: Good but not great. 11 / 7.
Kendall: no. Injuries slowed him down but he's good / not great.
Kyle: See DMO.
Cooke: Good but not great? A definite maybe. Only if there's a tournament run.
MJ: good lord no. If all those dunks were layups you would not remember him. Less than 10 PPG and 4 rebounds, A/TO of 1.5 / 1.
Dillard: EDIT: a definite maybe.
Vee: no. 10 PPG and a few rebounds.
Notice a trend? A bunch of 10 - 12 PPG players. All good. All guys I'd love to have on any team. But these guys are just good, not great.
I think these guys belong in:
Scooch: Yes. Top 10 in many categories.
CW: yes. Tops in many categories.
JS: 16 PPG as a senior. All A10 first team. Top 10 in 3's despite only playing 2 years. Yes.
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02-22-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
DMO averaged 6.94 ppg for his career. HOF?
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Career, career, career. That's not the only factor. As the program gets better, Freshman and Sophs have to wait their turn. So a Freshman forced into playing because he was on a lousy team is going to have better career stats then say Scoochie Smith who had to play as a backup his first season or KP who also played little as a Freshman on an elite eight team.
Let's say a player sits his first 2 seasons averaging 4 minutes a game and averaging 2 points per those 4 minutes. If a starter getting say 32 minutes per game that would equal out to 16 a game for those 2 season. Now he becomes a starter his Junior and Senior seasons and averages 22 points per game. Assuming he played in the every game and all 4 seasons they played the same amount of games, his average would be 12 points per game for a career. Do you really think that player doesn't go into HOF because he didn't get playing opportunity his first 2 seasons?
Again, answer the question, who was a better player, Ed Young or Kendall Pollard(throwing out last night's game of course )
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02-22-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Again, answer the question, who was a better player, Ed Young or Kendall Pollard(throwing out last night's game of course )
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A healthy Ed Young would destroy a healthy Sir Kendall Pollard. Yes, I just said that!
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02-22-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
DMO was a great person, good player his senior year, but not a HOF. People keep saying he led us to the Elite 8. Vee hit the shot against OSU after Pierre's clutch FT's. In the Syracuse game, Sibert went crazy from 3. Against Stanford it was also Sibert with 18 leading the way and a breakout performance from freshman Kendall Pollard.
Good person, good leader, great representative of UD...Not a HOF.
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And without Roosevelt Chapman, Goodwin Toney and Young never win one NCAA tournament game. What's the point?
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02-22-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
A healthy Ed Young would destroy a healthy Sir Kendall Pollard. Yes, I just said that!
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Wow, not because of your love for all things Kendall, because you're flippin nuts.
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02-22-2017, 01:02 PM
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How many NCAA tournament games you played in has nothing to do with whether you deserve to be in the HOF.
DMO - No
V - No.
Kyle - No.
M Johnson - No
CJ - Not likely
Dillard - Not likely
Pierre - Not likely
Cooke - maybe
Pollard - maybe
Sibert - likely
Scoochie - definitely
C Wright - definitely
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02-22-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
How many NCAA tournament games you played in has nothing to do with whether you deserve to be in the HOF.
DMO - No
V - No.
Kyle - No.
M Johnson - No
CJ - Not likely
Dillard - Not likely
Pierre - Not likely
Cooke - maybe
Pollard - maybe
Sibert - likely
Scoochie - definitely
C Wright - definitely
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You're right, there's no correlation between the quality of players and the success of the team
Also a team that scores 80 points a game and gives up 79 is better than team that scores 70 points a game and gives up 60. Because everyone knows defense is not as important as offense.
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02-22-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
How many NCAA tournament games you played in has nothing to do with whether you deserve to be in the HOF.
DMO - No
V - No.
Kyle - No.
M Johnson - No
CJ - Not likely
Dillard - Not likely
Pierre - Not likely
Cooke - maybe
Pollard - maybe
Sibert - likely
Scoochie - definitely
C Wright - definitely
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
You're right, there's no correlation between the quality of players and the success of the team
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Smitty, I do not think that is what he said at all.
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02-22-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Smitty, I do not think that is what he said at all.
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Well, my point is when a team is as successful as this one has been the past 4 seasons, and there's aren't a whole lot of super impressive stats coming from one player, you have to look beyond the stats. Actually, you have to look at the defense in this case. You have to look at each individual player and pick the ones who were critical to the success and there are a lot of them. There's no doubt in my mind that there are many players that could've put up HOF numbers at the expense of wins for this team. Heck, I've accused Cooke of doing so many times.
I also think if you look at all the UD men's basketball HOFers, the numbers from each era reflect the success of the program at the time. None since the 50s have been this successful, though the mid 60s was very close.
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02-22-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
You're right, there's no correlation between the quality of players and the success of the team
Also a team that scores 80 points a game and gives up 79 is better than team that scores 70 points a game and gives up 60. Because everyone knows defense is not as important as offense.
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I see you have blatantly ignored your own ignorance that I pointed out. Can we get back to the part where you say "oh you're right Gazoo, you actually DID NOT focus solely on career points scored."
As a matter of fact I pointed out that JS averaged 16 PPG AS A SENIOR. No mention of career points or PPG as a junior by me.
You think that by arguing every stat at once you can argue that every player deserves in because some other player has the same stat in that category who is already in. Like Oprah, "you get in the HOF! And you get in the HOF! And you get in the HOF!"
Nope. Any single thing can hypothetically be enough, but it's a balance, and something MUST stand out as an anomaly. A guy who just scores a lot of points (CJ) doesn't necessarily belong in because he failed to really develop into a significant force in any 1 year; nothing stands out except minutes played. And a guy who just scores a lot points doesn't necessarily get in because he might have been just the best player on an awful team (Chip Hare).
You've got to really stand out at something. DMO was just good. CJ was just good. Roberts was great. Kyle plays phenomenal defense but not HOF-worthy defense. Maybe when it's done we'll decide he does belong in, but right at this moment I would lean toward no.
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02-22-2017, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
You're right, there's no correlation between the quality of players and the success of the team .
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So why is Jim Paxson Jr in the Hall of Fame. Or Ted Williams in the baseball hall of fame. What a crock.
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02-22-2017, 02:22 PM
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I think the people voting on the ballot need to wake up and let Pete Rose in.
Sorry, wrong HOF.
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02-22-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug
So why is Jim Paxson in the Hall of Fame. Or Ted Williams in the baseball hall of fame. What a crock.
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There are exceptions. And Paxson was a great player without enough support. Why did Zimmerman get in is the question, and a darn good question. But those were pretty much the only two during that 5 year period. Then, guess what, they went to back to back tournaments 1984-1985 and 5 players from those two years made it. See????? And from the 60s sweet 16s/championship game and nit championship you get 6, Finkel, May, Hooper, Sadlier, Janky and Klaus.
The more successful, the more that go in. There are greats that can play on losing teams or above average teams get in, those are usually the greatest of the great. But people seem to think you need to be Meineke, Horan, Uhl, Finkel, May, Smith, Davis Paxson, Chapman, Knight, Perryman or Roberts to get in.
You don't, you obviously can be Hooper, Janky, Zimmerman, Conrad, Young, Goodwin, Toney, Colbert and Waleskowski and get in also, all quite a bit lower on the greatness scale. And I use that term "greatness" loosely because whoever decided the criteria to get in, used it loosely also.
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02-23-2017, 05:00 PM
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Whether you get in the Hall of Fame is based on your accomplishments as a player and the other non-athletic factors they may consider (such as graduating). Not how good your teams were.
I think the data actually says the opposite. It's not that you get more members in the HOF because you went to tournaments. You are more likely to have tournament teams if you have more HOF worthy players. In my opinion you have the chicken and egg backwards.
Are you seriously questioning Jack Zimmerman's place in the UD Hall of Fame? He is second in career assist to turnover ratio. He is second in career assists per game. He is likely to still be third in career assists after this year. At a time when assists were more tightly scored. And he scored nearly 1500 points, without the three point line.
If Zimmerman's stats aren't Hall of Fame worthy, then Scoochie should not even receive consideration.
And seriously Colbert scored over 1,000 points at UD in two years. He'd have challenged Velvet, Paxson, etc for top 5 all-time scoring he played four years.
The success of the recent run is due to many good players and depth. Not because all of the are HOF worthy. I do agree to some extent that some honored from the mid-80s may not be at the standard of others - in large part because they have to get some people in just for the ceremony, and really for about 15 years nobody was worthy.
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