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01-19-2016, 09:07 PM
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Colonel
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Hold a lead
Leave the rose-colored glasses at the door. This team can blow any lead they earn faster than Superman can fly around the block.
Scoochie and CC go from a solid FT shooters to 50%, consistently. Our hustle and pace goes to crap. Good shooting and defense fade. We forget how to handle a press, and we never knew how to handle a zone.
Holy cow, we really might be the luckiest team in the nation.
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01-19-2016, 09:10 PM
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I don't understand why Dayton cannot put teams away ...
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01-19-2016, 09:14 PM
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Brigadier General
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This team gels much better when they are pushing the ball up the court, attacking the basket, and knocking the opposing team off their game. Now, I know it's difficult to keep up that pace for the entire game, but what I've noticed over the past few seasons is that we go into sort of a milk-the-clock "stall" game when we get a big lead. I get the strategy behind that: Shorten the game, less possessions for the opposing team to get back into the game. But I think it really throws this team out of rhythm. We've blown a few games like this over the past few seasons...
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01-19-2016, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
This team gels much better when they are pushing the ball up the court, attacking the basket, and knocking the opposing team off their game. Now, I know it's difficult to keep up that pace for the entire game, but what I've noticed over the past few seasons is that we go into sort of a milk-the-clock "stall" game when we get a big lead. I get the strategy behind that: Shorten the game, less possessions for the opposing team to get back into the game. But I think it really throws this team out of rhythm. We've blown a few games like this over the past few seasons...
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That wasn't the problem tonight. Just stupid basketball !!
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01-19-2016, 09:21 PM
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Colonel
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Our first 3 offensive possessions in the second half resulted in 3 missed layups........ Seems like simple concentration..... 6 more points at that time of the game likely puts them in la la land!
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01-19-2016, 09:30 PM
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Actually the stats have us missing FOUR layups in the first 2+ minutes of the second half, and then 3 minutes later we stretch our lead to 30 points. Crazy stuff.
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01-19-2016, 09:33 PM
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Colonel
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More like pathetic stuff. Beat a team. Please. Stop barely holding on. It will, and has been, our demise.
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01-19-2016, 09:35 PM
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How bad did they lose?
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01-19-2016, 09:39 PM
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Commander in Chief
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I take nothing away from that second half. It was full of some horrific officiating that was swept up by the emotion of the Bonaventure crowd. It wasn't basketball played by real rules. Road win. Next.
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01-19-2016, 09:40 PM
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1st Lieutenant
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Good win
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01-19-2016, 09:47 PM
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Vegas had us as a 2 point favorite. I guess we just wanted to show Vegas that they were almost right. When you miss three or four layups at the start of the second half and your point guard cannot shoot foul shots, it is not the fault of the officiating.
I will say it one more time - " a win is a win is a win." But I am having a hard time saying it with confidence as season goes on. I think that part of the problem is that we do not have a controlling point guard like Sibert and Dillard that can run the show, slow the pace down when necessary and speed it up when necessary.
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01-19-2016, 10:59 PM
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General of the Air Force
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Speaking of point guards, something really seems to be going on with Scoochie. It's like his focus just isn't there to the degree it was last year. Exhibit A is his FT%. Last year, he shot 75.5% for the year, and he seemed to get better as the season went on. This year, he was at 68.9% going into tonight's game, and his 4/8 effort will drop that a little bit. I still think he's our best all-around PG since B-Rob, but he just seems to be in a funk a lot.
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01-19-2016, 11:01 PM
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Captain
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The first 30 minutes we played to win.
The last 10 we played to not lose.
At the end of the day we got the W, so I'm not complaining.
But unfortunately this has been a common trend all year. I'm not sure how you change the mindset of these kids, that's what the coaches are for. But we need to play to win for 40 minutes.
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01-19-2016, 11:16 PM
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Felt like UD was its own enemy the last 6 minutes when SBU went to the press. After every dead ball (made basket, made FT) we would spend 15 seconds deciding who was going to inbound the ball -- the person closest to the ball was never allowed to inbound it. The 10-15 seconds of walking around like it was lunchtime allowed SBU to find their marks and institute the full court press on every Flyer in-bounds. Why we continue to do this I have no idea. You are just playing into the opponents' strengths.
Once the ball goes through the net, grab it and shuffle it into play to the first qualified person you see open. This prevents the opponent from finding marks and doubling anyone up, and allows you to spread the court while not being marked. Its easier to get open for a pass when you arent marked to begin with. We should have been shuffling the ball in quickly and pushing it up court with over the top/through passes to break the pressure. Once across halfcourt, either take the gimme or just run your offense. We had no need to be in a hurry. Running offense wouldnt have been playing not to lose -- not with that score and clock.
You can't spend all day setting up your in-bounds play when the opponent wants to institute a full court press. Being deliberate is precisely what they hope.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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__________________
Hot shooting hides a multitude of sins.
Make everyone else's "one day" your "day one".
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01-19-2016, 11:35 PM
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In bounding....
Originally Posted by Chris R
Felt like UD was its own enemy the last 6 minutes when SBU went to the press. After every dead ball (made basket, made FT) we would spend 15 seconds deciding who was going to inbound the ball -- the person closest to the ball was never allowed to inbound it. The 10-15 seconds of walking around like it was lunchtime allowed SBU to find their marks and institute the full court press on every Flyer in-bounds. Why we continue to do this I have no idea. You are just playing into the opponents' strengths.
Once the ball goes through the net, grab it and shuffle it into play to the first qualified person you see open. This prevents the opponent from finding marks and doubling anyone up, and allows you to spread the court while not being marked. Its easier to get open for a pass when you arent marked to begin with. We should have been shuffling the ball in quickly and pushing it up court with over the top/through passes to break the pressure. Once across halfcourt, either take the gimme or just run your offense. We had no need to be in a hurry. Running offense wouldnt have been playing not to lose -- not with that score and clock.
You can't spend all day setting up your in-bounds play when the opponent wants to institute a full court press. Being deliberate is precisely what they hope.
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....a coaching issue.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-19-2016, 11:50 PM
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Major
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I was wondering about this too. With so many decent ball handlers on this club, there shouldn't be a set inbounder. Grab the ball and throw it in. In press situations, with no foulouts, Arch can run any combo of the 5 from last year and Cooke without real fear of losing the ball. But once you give the defense a chance to set up, you're already halfway to a turnover. Get it and go...we win in transition.
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01-20-2016, 12:05 AM
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General
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Originally Posted by Fudd
I take nothing away from that second half. It was full of some horrific officiating that was swept up by the emotion of the Bonaventure crowd. It wasn't basketball played by real rules. Road win. Next.
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I agree, but that's a problem. Once the tide starts turning, you can't count on the refs to be impartial. Fouling on 2 point shots when you're trying to run the clock down is the biggest problem and also the most unforgiving. You're giving the Refs a chance to take your insurmountable lead away with one call and you're giving the opponents momentum. While it didn't kill us here, and it didn't kill us against Arkansas, mark my word, if this pattern continues, it's going to kill us at the absolute worst time. The Arkansas should've put this team on notice, it hasn't. And there's a problem there that people that have the attitude "we won didn't we" will find out why it's important at a later date. Clean it up.
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01-20-2016, 12:09 AM
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hold the lead
Hey did i miss something Did we win ? Was it a road win? What happened the last time on the road.Any body that has played sports in there lifetime have been in games like this,Sometime its hard top keep up the intensity with a big lead like that.Give them a break they hung on. I am sure Archie will address this, sky is the limit for this team .First half was pure beautiful and before this year is done we will see a whole game close to what happened in the first.Enjoy the win they won, St Bonnie was a good team great character builder. Archie said he would never apologize for a road win,and i dont blame him.All he has to do is read these message boards its being done for him.
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01-20-2016, 12:40 AM
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Major
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He!! No should there be any apologies for winning this game. Vegas didn't think UD would win by more than 2 and they covered. In the real world, that's all that matters
I don't care what sport you play, it is very difficult to keep up intensity in a blowout. That being said, noone can deny that there are things this team needs to shore up.
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01-20-2016, 06:51 AM
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Good win on the road...especially in Olean.
First half was very impressive on both ends of the floor. As Chris stated above, STB came out with the intensity in the second half that led to the contested layups in the first 2 minutes that were missed. I think that put UD on their heels for the remainder of the second half, or at least a good portion of it. The runs let the crowd back into the game and UD was forced to hang on versus blowing them out. I hate it when the teams I like get nervous trying to break a press. You can see it in body language and the sketchy passes being made in an attempt to break the press.
In the end, it is a good road in in the A10 at a place that obviously we hate going. Keep building on it and learn from it. Dayton did Dayton and had two opposite halves of basketball. No lead is too big on the road as they just found out. Keep rolling and get another W on Sunday.
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01-20-2016, 08:26 AM
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Major
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Good win on the road...especially in Olean.
First half was very impressive on both ends of the floor. As Chris stated above, STB came out with the intensity in the second half that led to the contested layups in the first 2 minutes that were missed. I think that put UD on their heels for the remainder of the second half, or at least a good portion of it. The runs let the crowd back into the game and UD was forced to hang on versus blowing them out. I hate it when the teams I like get nervous trying to break a press. You can see it in body language and the sketchy passes being made in an attempt to break the press.
In the end, it is a good road in in the A10 at a place that obviously we hate going. Keep building on it and learn from it. Dayton did Dayton and had two opposite halves of basketball. No lead is too big on the road as they just found out. Keep rolling and get another W on Sunday.
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Great points. The Bonnies played really well in the 2nd half and we were on our heels. We didn't play well in the 2nd half. Hopefully we learn from it. That includes Archie.
The good news is we won... and we still have plenty of room to improve.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-20-2016, 08:45 AM
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we never trailed...
Up 45-18 at the half, how many of you would have come out of the locker room focused to win by 54?
None.
I was never worried. In fact, I went and took a shower at the 4:00 mark knowing it was over.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
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01-20-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Felt like UD was its own enemy the last 6 minutes when SBU went to the press. After every dead ball (made basket, made FT) we would spend 15 seconds deciding who was going to inbound the ball -- the person closest to the ball was never allowed to inbound it. The 10-15 seconds of walking around like it was lunchtime allowed SBU to find their marks and institute the full court press on every Flyer in-bounds. Why we continue to do this I have no idea. You are just playing into the opponents' strengths.
Once the ball goes through the net, grab it and shuffle it into play to the first qualified person you see open. This prevents the opponent from finding marks and doubling anyone up, and allows you to spread the court while not being marked. Its easier to get open for a pass when you arent marked to begin with. We should have been shuffling the ball in quickly and pushing it up court with over the top/through passes to break the pressure. Once across halfcourt, either take the gimme or just run your offense. We had no need to be in a hurry. Running offense wouldnt have been playing not to lose -- not with that score and clock.
You can't spend all day setting up your in-bounds play when the opponent wants to institute a full court press. Being deliberate is precisely what they hope.
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This is a very salient point. I noticed that too. It did seem like Dayton gave the Bonnies a lot of time to gather and organize their armies. The cameraman even had time to roll the camera to their general (head coach) who had time to correct his troops into prrfect position and then stand back and observe if his coaching during practice was followed during actual game time.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-20-2016, 08:54 AM
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General of the Air Force
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma
This is a very salient point. I noticed that too. It did seem like Dayton gave the Bonnies a lot of time to gather and organize their armies. The cameraman even had time to roll the camera to their general (head coach) who had time to correct his troops into prrfect position and then stand back and observe if his coaching during practice was followed during actual game time.
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I remember reading something earlier in the season that the players said they were coached to not go get the ball but let the ref go get it. Sure this let's us get set up but it also let's the D get set up too. I think in these situations it makes more sense to get the ball in quickly. That said, we need to do a better job against an organized press. Why so much dribbling and not so much passing?
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-20-2016, 09:03 AM
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Major General
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Felt like UD was its own enemy the last 6 minutes when SBU went to the press. After every dead ball (made basket, made FT) we would spend 15 seconds deciding who was going to inbound the ball -- the person closest to the ball was never allowed to inbound it. The 10-15 seconds of walking around like it was lunchtime allowed SBU to find their marks and institute the full court press on every Flyer in-bounds. Why we continue to do this I have no idea. You are just playing into the opponents' strengths.
Once the ball goes through the net, grab it and shuffle it into play to the first qualified person you see open. This prevents the opponent from finding marks and doubling anyone up, and allows you to spread the court while not being marked. Its easier to get open for a pass when you arent marked to begin with. We should have been shuffling the ball in quickly and pushing it up court with over the top/through passes to break the pressure. Once across halfcourt, either take the gimme or just run your offense. We had no need to be in a hurry. Running offense wouldnt have been playing not to lose -- not with that score and clock.
You can't spend all day setting up your in-bounds play when the opponent wants to institute a full court press. Being deliberate is precisely what they hope.
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I agree with what you are saying. My only counter to this is that this was 10-15 seconds of the clock running and the shot clock not moving. This allowed us to waste time without actually having the ball in play. But, if this was the way they wanted to attack the press, they needed to be much more aggressive and stronger with the ball once they got it in. Instead they were weak with the ball and would dribble right into traps.
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-20-2016, 09:06 AM
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Major General
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Felt like UD was its own enemy the last 6 minutes when SBU went to the press. After every dead ball (made basket, made FT) we would spend 15 seconds deciding who was going to inbound the ball -- the person closest to the ball was never allowed to inbound it. The 10-15 seconds of walking around like it was lunchtime allowed SBU to find their marks and institute the full court press on every Flyer in-bounds. Why we continue to do this I have no idea. You are just playing into the opponents' strengths.
Once the ball goes through the net, grab it and shuffle it into play to the first qualified person you see open. This prevents the opponent from finding marks and doubling anyone up, and allows you to spread the court while not being marked. Its easier to get open for a pass when you arent marked to begin with. We should have been shuffling the ball in quickly and pushing it up court with over the top/through passes to break the pressure. Once across halfcourt, either take the gimme or just run your offense. We had no need to be in a hurry. Running offense wouldnt have been playing not to lose -- not with that score and clock.
You can't spend all day setting up your in-bounds play when the opponent wants to institute a full court press. Being deliberate is precisely what they hope.
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Not quite as easy as you're saying but the point, to a degree, is understood....You still want to get the ball into the right hands on the inbounds to either absorb obvious fouls later on or to not get stuck in no man's land and get trapped causing simple turnovers. It's not like the Bonnies ran down court and had to then run back to set-up their press....They had some real quickness and athletes out there hovering around the basket waiting for UD to inbounds after made buckets..Don't you think if there was no rhyme or reason or method that AM would have just had anybody do that? You're always going to have a couple TO's against a frantic press going on for at least 5-6 minutes but you have to look deep a couple times AND,more importantly, you have to hit the FT's which they did not.
Again, the Bonnies were not going to need to foul with 5-6 minutes to go and down 14-15 points so they are strictly going for steals and traps....Last guys I want touching the ball (with no foul being incurred) is Kyle Davis who is not a good ball-handler and I don't want Pollard touching the ball especially in the corner so you need one of those guys (KD) inbounding the ball to either SS, DP, or CC....Those guys aren't necessarily where they need/ would like to be every second as the Bonnies and their offensive sets had something to do with that and where the UD players were after a score..
More than anything not having John Crosby on the floor due to his terrible and erratic play earlier forced an exhausted Scoochie to have to be everything out there....If his legs are there and/or he makes his FT's then we're talking a different tune here..
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St Bonaventure
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SAINT BONAVENTURE
Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf. |
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01-20-2016, 09:33 AM
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The press break and when you should get the ball is a double edged sword.
As soon as you take possession of the ball your 5 seconds starts. If your guards aren't in a position to make a break to the ball or set a screen, you can get screwed. Even if you let STB get set up, and effective and disciplined press break should, in theory, more often than not allow you to get the ball in bounds and up the court.
Last night we got the ball in. If we got too tight to a sideline, they threw the trap. If we got the ball in the middle of the court, by the guards, they sagged the double, not allowing a post/4 to come to the middle of the court for the release. In that case, you can't leave the ball handler alone, as it isn't a man press. Someone has to be there to help. Either down the sideline or in the middle. You want to pick a side, initially, but stay away from the corners where the sidelines act as two defenders.
Breaking the press isn't that hard if you remember that passing quickly to guys in the right places beats it, not dribbling. When you dribble, it gets you either too far away or too close to the help, either creating a long and unsafe pass, or by being too close, a 3rd defender ready to make the steal. If the ballhandler does dribble, the others have to shift to keep spacing and not screw the guy when the trap comes.
Get out and go against token full court pressure. Be methodical against a trap. You saw last night when we weren't methodical, we turned the ball over. I have to believe that is AM's style given how we reacted against the trap last night.
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Mad Props to shocka43 For This Totally Excellent Post:
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01-20-2016, 11:20 AM
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I read somewhere that this, of course, is Archie's mantra, take your time getting the ball in.
I used that same trapping 2-1-2 press a bunch. From a defensive standpoint you want a few seconds for the defenders to find their spots. You also want the ball inbounded to the corner, which we did a bunch. Then it is trap the the ballhandler and the lone person in the middle floats to pick off the pass.
From the offensive standpoint, as Shocka said, "no dribbling". Passes down the middle are most effective. The throwback to the inbounder in the the middle is very effective, but he has to pass immediately. We did that with Scoochie, and he dribbled side to side. Fast passes create a 3 on 2 good shot. We moved too slowly and dribbled way too much. Archie will fix it.
It hurt us some having Kyle with 4 fouls, as he is a press breaker.
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01-20-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Get out and go against token full court pressure. Be methodical against a trap. You saw last night when we weren't methodical, we turned the ball over. I have to believe that is AM's style given how we reacted against the trap last night.
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This is the essence of a good attack. When to hurry and when not to.
One key is to plan ahead where you are going to go with the ball IF it comes to you. What will likely be your options. Too many players wait until it's in their hands, as if the whole thing is over at that point.
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