Next years schedule

[ud2]

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan I can't imagine why Neil hasn't hired you to do scheduling yet.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer OK, let's suppose there's something to this line of reasoning. Who is it that decides UD is unwilling to give up one or two home games as a means to achieve its primary objective...that being regular NCAA berths with reasonably good seeds? We have a president and an AD who are relatively new in their jobs. And we are a school willing to invest an amount approaching $100 million to renovate its BB palace. Men's BB is a very big deal for our U....and success is defined one way for us, filled Arena seats, the NCAAs regularly.....success in the NCAAs. Seems to me that a new president (who comes to us from a big-time BB school) would support just about any decision his AD would make toward those ends. Right? In my opinion.....opinion....the most important thing UD can/should do is to produce teams that are consistently dominant in the A10....the clear-cut cream of the crop winning the regular season and tournament consistently. A tall order? The A10 is not the BE or the Big Ten or the ACC. Demonstrating dominance in our own respectable conference combined with solid OOC performance is the ticket to where we want to be....in my opinion. If we do that the rest will take care of itself.

FWIW, I do not blame Neil, I think this budgeting decision is being made above him at the highest level: the level of President Spina/the university board of trustees. I think that Neil has no control over this at all, just my opinion.

[soccergod]

Guess no schools want to be apart of an Obi Toppin ESPN top 10 highlight dunk fest ?
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[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 FWIW, I do not blame Neil, I think this budgeting decision is being made above him at the highest level: the level of President Spina/the university board of trustees. I think that Neil has no control over this at all, just my opinion.

ud2, I don't think the President of a university or the board of trustees gives much (any?) thought to the school's BB schedule or other athletic scheduling unless their is a problem/issue of some sort....financial, NCAA rules violation, legal, reputational, etc.

That's why the school has a senior executive with responsibility for athletic programs, i.e., an AD. UD's AD understands the unique role men's BB plays re the school's (and City's) history, reputation, finances, psyche, etc. It's essential that our AD is experienced and competent, of course. I see no reason to question that.

[Chris R]

If merely overcoming scheduling issues was a spending problem UD would have written the checks years ago. Neil can only dream the solution is that easy.

The one financial consideration that IS always at play is paying for the entire athletic department through MBB. You need a certain number of games with a certain number of tickets sold with a certain number of hot dogs consumed in order to keep a broad-based competitive athletics program afloat. Its the hand that feeds everyone.

[UD62]

It would be interesting to see what the net income is, on average, for a preseason buy game, or even an approximation of that income. Not a fan of ud2's plan but it would be interesting to see what the net loss of income would be, income plus travel expenses, should a buy game become an away game.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by UD62 It would be interesting to see what the net income is, on average, for a preseason buy game, or even an approximation of that income. Not a fan of ud2's plan but it would be interesting to see what the net loss of income would be, income plus travel expenses, should a buy game become an away game.

I agree it would be interesting to look at the numbers but 1 buy game turned into an away game would not really have much of an impact upon the schedule and the scheduling difficulties.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R If merely overcoming scheduling issues was a spending problem UD would have written the checks years ago. Neil can only dream the solution is that easy. The one financial consideration that IS always at play is paying for the entire athletic department through MBB. You need a certain number of games with a certain number of tickets sold with a certain number of hot dogs consumed in order to keep a broad-based competitive athletics program afloat. Its the hand that feeds everyone.

You are making it appear as if men's BB footing the bill is a fundamental construct. It isn't! Peer institutions having athletic programs as robust as ours do NOT have such an advantage....a cash cow like UD men's BB. That is a huge plus in our favor, not some sort of handicap that hampers scheduling flexibility.

The flow of money from men's BB provides UD options not enjoyed by similar high-mid-majors. Indeed, because of that we are better positioned to afford one or two fewer home games. I've always been puzzled by the notion that we are somehow locked in to a certain number of home games in order to pay the bills.

The bigger reward financially and otherwise is making the Dance regularly and doing well when we get there. To the extent that scheduling flexibility advances us toward that objective....great! That's what we want.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by Chris R The one financial consideration that IS always at play is paying for the entire athletic department through MBB. You need a certain number of games with a certain number of tickets sold with a certain number of hot dogs consumed in order to keep a broad-based competitive athletics program afloat. Its the hand that feeds everyone.

Isn’t this UD2’s point over the past few years? Why? Why must basketball be the hand that feeds everyone? UD’s athletic department could get additional funds from the general fund. There are no restrictions on that.Do all other schools who have aspirations to be the next Gonzaga, Butler, or Xavier have this same restriction when it comes to scheduling?

Would it make sense to “invest” a few years of reduced income to break through? Yes, there is risk. Yes, UD winning the A10 consistently would bring a modicum of national respectability but you’ll still be a higher seed in the tournament than what is ideal.

What gets you to the level of Gonzaga is consistently getting to the second w/e in March and getting to the Elite 8 more than once (XU has not made a Final Four but there a nationally known team). UD2’s point is the most probable way of getting there is by not starting as a 8-11 seed; rather, win a few away games against solid competition in the pre conference AND win the A10 to get a 4 seed.

It’s not every year UD has a roster like this year (or hopefully next). In the years we are strong, the schedule needs to reflect the risk/reward profile of trying to break through to be the next Gonzaga.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer You are making it appear as if men's BB footing the bill is a fundamental construct. It isn't! Peer institutions having athletic programs as robust as ours do NOT have such an advantage....a cash cow like UD men's BB. That is a huge plus in our favor, not some sort of handicap that hampers scheduling flexibility.

What you consider peer institutions to UD, those institutions do not consider peers of UD. However that is what we aspire to be, so we are forced to do more with less. Our peers are not Belmont or Rhode Island from a goal perspective. Our peers are Xavier, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, Providence, Marquette, Butler, etc. But those "non-peer peers" having things UD does not have no matter what UD MBB revenue is generated -- either DI football or a league with a cash cow TV package. Or, far more historical excellence precedent that predates all of it.

The flow of money from men's BB provides UD options not enjoyed by similar high-mid-majors. Indeed, because of that we are better positioned to afford one or two fewer home games. I've always been puzzled by the notion that we are somehow locked in to a certain number of home games in order to pay the bills..

UD MBB revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to what football schools and Big East teams make from the pigskin or TV. We would also consider Alabama our basketball peer group. But only in terms of performance. In terms of dollars, its a joke to even make the comparison. Bama throws as much money at their gymnastics and softball teams as UD throws at hoops. Wisconsin volleyball charters to every away game like they are the Wisconsin Badger MBB team. The amount of money is insane.

UD MBB money is not an advantage. Its one of the few things keeping us from being irrelevant. There's a reason nobody else in the A10 -- despite having as good or better resume's in the last decade -- do not exclusively play in Tier-1 exempt tournaments. UD does because we have money. But it doesnt give us a leg up on Iowa. It merely keeps us from being entirely irrelevant to Iowa. The measurement is not how relevant we are to Rhode Island or St. Joe or Davidson.

What most UD fans think are UD's peers, those same "peers" think UD is some irrelevant zip code in Ohio. DePaul has sucked for 20 years and still refuses to play us. Most schools have not one second for us -- and with 20-game league schedules, exempt tournies, league challenges, Gavitt Games, etc, its in their best interest to feel that way. Money/location has dictated conference affiliation and conference affiliation has dictated scheduling as much as any other factor. Otherwise Rutgers would have never been asked to join the Big10. But once the leagues are set, you're pretty much also set in your livelihood. Thats because the stone has already set in concrete. The schools we want and need to play do not need any more money. They have more money than they know how to spend. They also have more marquee games on the schedule than they know how to prepare for.

So UD cant simply persuade most of these schools with money or competitiveness to schedule us. Money is irrelevant to those already with too much to spend. And competitiveness is also largely irrelevant because the non-con season is now nothing more than spring training for your 12-15 Quad 1 conference games.

About the only thing that gets these things done is relationships and persuasion. If it were just a matter of signing checks, we'd have solved this riddle 10 years ago and so too every other school in our same predicament. There are enough donors at almost any modestly successful basketball school to float things if money is whats holding everything back.

For UD, season ticket money is not what's holding us back. Its not UD football or tennis. Its league affiliation, 20-game conference seasons, the recent league-schuffling, TV contracts, and the loss of long-time relationships that used to matter but no longer do. A check with unlimited trailing zeroes cant solve our scheduling dilemma.....because its largely not up to us. We must have the permission from other schools that dont need us to somehow "do us a solid" when its probably not in their best interest to do so.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

I can hardly wait for the meltdown by many when this years home non con is announced, as I fear it will be the ugliest ever. Prove me wrong UD

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R What you consider peer institutions to UD, those ]institutions do not consider peers of UD. However that is what we aspire to be, so we are forced to do more with less. Our peers are not Belmont or Rhode Island from a goal perspective. Our peers are Xavier, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, Providence, Marquette, Butler, etc. But those "non-peer peers" having things UD does not have no matter what UD MBB revenue is generated -- either DI football or a league with a cash cow TV package. Or, far more historical excellence precedent that predates all of it. UD MBB revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to what football schools and Big East teams make from the pigskin or TV. We would also consider Alabama our basketball peer group. But only in terms of performance. In terms of dollars, its a joke to even make the comparison. Bama throws as much money at their gymnastics and softball teams as UD throws at hoops. Wisconsin volleyball charters to every away game like they are the Wisconsin Badger MBB team. The amount of money is insane. UD MBB money is not an advantage. Its one of the few things keeping us from being irrelevant. There's a reason nobody else in the A10 -- despite having as good or better resume's in the last decade -- do not exclusively play in Tier-1 exempt tournaments. UD does because we have money. But it doesnt give us a leg up on Iowa. It merely keeps us from being entirely irrelevant to Iowa. The measurement is not how relevant we are to Rhode Island or St. Joe or Davidson. What most UD fans think are UD's peers, those same "peers" think UD is some irrelevant zip code in Ohio. DePaul has sucked for 20 years and still refuses to play us. Most schools have not one second for us -- and with 20-game league schedules, exempt tournies, league challenges, Gavitt Games, etc, its in their best interest to feel that way. Money/location has dictated conference affiliation and conference affiliation has dictated scheduling as much as any other factor. Otherwise Rutgers would have never been asked to join the Big10. But once the leagues are set, you're pretty much also set in your livelihood. Thats because the stone has already set in concrete. The schools we want and need to play do not need any more money. They have more money than they know how to spend. They also have more marquee games on the schedule than they know how to prepare for. So UD cant simply persuade most of these schools with money or competitiveness to schedule us. Money is irrelevant to those already with too much to spend. And competitiveness is also largely irrelevant because the non-con season is now nothing more than spring training for your 12-15 Quad 1 conference games. About the only thing that gets these things done is relationships and persuasion. If it were just a matter of signing checks, we'd have solved this riddle 10 years ago and so too every other school in our same predicament. There are enough donors at almost any modestly successful basketball school to float things if money is whats holding everything back. For UD, season ticket money is not what's holding us back. Its not UD football or tennis. Its league affiliation, 20-game conference seasons, the recent league-schuffling, TV contracts, and the loss of long-time relationships that used to matter but no longer do. A check with unlimited trailing zeroes cant solve our scheduling dilemma.....because its largely not up to us. We must have the permission from other schools that dont need us to somehow "do us a solid" when its probably not in their best interest to do so.

Solid, informative reporting.

Some comments though: When I used the term "peer" surely you didn't think I meant basketball peers which include the Power 5 FBS schools. It sounded as if you did though. I was referring to schools that can reasonably be compared with UD...similar aspirations, size, resources, etc.

A word about those Power 5 FBS schools...the schools that pull in $20-$30 million annually from their TV contracts. More than half of those ~ 65 schools are losing a ton of money. FBS football results in a sea of red ink except for a handful of elite institutions. Very, very few FBS schools have more money than they know what to do with....most are hurting financially. They pull in a lot of money but their costs are out of control....and they are trapped. Schools like the one you cited, Bama, are rare exceptions.

That so many desirable opponents see nothing to gain by scheduling UD is an issue, I understand. Considering that, I think Neil has been doing a very good job under difficult circumstances.

OK, so it's not easy...and it's not likely to get easier. So aside from doing a job UD has been doing well....what is the single thing that would advance UD toward its goal of regular NCAA play and success? I still think that A10 dominance is the key. If UD dominated in its "just OK" conference the way Butler did for years in its "just OK" conference and Gonzaga does in its conference I think we'd be far more successful in our quest for post season success.

For all the bellyaching about the poor conference we're in...we haven't exactly been ripping the conference to pieces year after year. Indeed, we find the A10 a pretty tough slog. When we have teams that are good enough to consistently win the A10 regular season and tournament I doubt if we'll have trouble scheduling and. most important, being a (successful) regular in the Dance.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[UD62]

There is one course of action that can be most effective in the future. String together a decade or so of 27 or so win seasons and league championships on a regular basis and the fog may clear. It appears AG is headed in that direction, upgrading the roster when ever he can. It's early and he may or may not be successful but given the landscape in today's basketball world, winning is probably the most sure way to change our situation. Improve relationships, and make friends but above all win. Our performance, save a couple years with AM, has been underwhelming to say the least.

Our OOC performance has in most years been the thing that has gotten us to the dance. Win and it will be easier to upgrade the OOC. Having said that our OOC has in most years been our strength. Being a friend of ESPN has helped, But one A-10 championship in our history hasn't helped. Go 25-6 or 26-5 and the seeding will improve.

We are not telling the AD anything he doesn't already know. If it were easy UD could hire some of the posters on Pride to solve every situation.

Edit: UAC, you and i were posting at the same time. We both seem to agree.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan I can hardly wait for the meltdown by many when this years home non con is announced, as I fear it will be the ugliest ever. Prove me wrong UD

Well it happens every year, so you aren't exactly blowing anyone's mind with this prediction. What ends up also happening every year is that we have a very highly ranked non-con, so all of these people end up eating their predictable words.

[San Diego Flyer]

Our chances of playing in the NCAA's rest with a good showing (ie, W's) in Maui, just as we were faced with in Charleston but under whelmed. Achieving that, we then need to beat the teams we are favored against in ooc. We can deal with some weak teams in ooc.

[frisco flyer]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Our chances of playing in the NCAA's rest with a good showing (ie, W's) in Maui, just as we were faced with in Charleston but under whelmed. Achieving that, we then need to beat the teams we are favored against in ooc. We can deal with some weak teams in ooc.

If the A10 improves as much as expected, our fate may depend more on conference schedule and conference record than on our play in the OOC. A refreshing change if you ask me!

[ud2]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Well it happens every year, so you aren't exactly blowing anyone's mind with this prediction. What ends up also happening every year is that we have a very highly ranked non-con, so all of these people end up eating their predictable words.

We had the #114 ncsos last year per Kenpom, do you think that is good enough for us being in the 11th best league in the country last year per Kenpom?

[ud2]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer ud2, I don't think the President of a university or the board of trustees gives much (any?) thought to the school's BB schedule or other athletic scheduling unless their is a problem/issue of some sort....financial, NCAA rules violation, legal, reputational, etc. That's why the school has a senior executive with responsibility for athletic programs, i.e., an AD. UD's AD understands the unique role men's BB plays re the school's (and City's) history, reputation, finances, psyche, etc. It's essential that our AD is experienced and competent, of course. I see no reason to question that.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough, it may not be Mr. Spina or the BOT holding Neil back, but someone/something is holding Neil back.

I find it incredible that our last 3 or 4 AD's all saw things the exact same way, yet numerous other non-p5 AD's at very successful non-p5 programs during this same time period saw things differently.

And is it not a huge coincidence that the 4 most successful A10 teams over the last 20-25 years, Temple, VCU, Butler, and Xavier, all employed this same strategy of scheduling up in the ooc?

And we have been trying to dominate the A10 for the last 25 years, but we have largely failed. How about we slightly tweak our approach and see what happens?

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[The Fly]

Originally Posted by ud2 We had the #114 ncsos last year per Kenpom, do you think that is good enough for us being in the 11th best league in the country last year per Kenpom?

You’ll find statistical variances everywhere you look. The NCAA had Dayton at No. 43, second only to VCU in the A-10.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-ba...e-sos-by-other

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 We will have to agree to disagree. Fair enough, it may not be Mr. Spina or the BOT holding Neil back, but someone/something is holding Neil back. I find it incredible that our last 3 or 4 AD's all saw things the exact same way, yet numerous other non-p5 AD's at very successful non-p5 programs during this same time period saw things differently. And is it not a huge coincidence that the 4 most successful A10 teams over the last 20-25 years, Temple, VCU, Butler, and Xavier, all employed this same strategy of scheduling up in the ooc? And we have been trying to dominate the A10 for the last 25 years, but we have largely failed. How about we slightly tweak our approach and see what happens?

We may be missing something. Early in my career a wise person told me that when smart people are doing something that you don't understand or you think is wrong it's probable that they know things that you don't.

I knew Ted Kissell pretty well....a guy in a class all by himself as far as UD ADs are concerned....I don't think Ted would have taken the job or stayed on the job if he didn't have a free hand.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Ted Kissell TED KISSELL Athletic Director at the University of Dayton from 1993-2008. Helped spearhead a renewed commitment to athletic excellence by hiring Oliver Purnell to resurrect the men's basketball program, and emphasized major non-revenue sports to raise UD's profile. Helped UD receive an invitation to the A10 Conference, developed new baseball, softball, soccer, football, and basketball facility upgrades, and achieved NCAA appearances in men's basketball, men's and women's soccer, and volleyball -- the latter three being program's firsts. Also served as UD's Vice President and improved overall academic performance among student athletes.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by The Fly You’ll find statistical variances everywhere you look. The NCAA had Dayton at No. 43, second only to VCU in the A-10. https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-ba...e-sos-by-other

A case could even be made that last year's non-con schedule - knowing the short bench, youth, and inexperience returning from a sub .500 team the season prior -- was overambitious for the talent at hand.

Fortunately we overachieved compared to nearly every preseason prediction inside and outside the league so its easy to say the schedule could have been tougher. But you can only schedule based on the info you have at the time. Overscheduling a team with significant shortcomings does no more good than underscheduling a team with a loaded roster.

[CE80]

Comparing scheduling today to what X or Temple did 10-15 years a go is ridiculous. It is a totally different environment. The end conclusion is still the same - the Flyer's scheduling is not the problem.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Buckleyma]

Originally Posted by The Fly You’ll find statistical variances everywhere you look. The NCAA had Dayton at No. 43, second only to VCU in the A-10. https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-ba...e-sos-by-other

The Fly: Thank you for posting this SOS (Strength if Schedule) list. My eye was caught by a grouping of teams on this list starting at 119 Connecticut, 120 Notre Dame, 121 Oregon State, 122 Colorado and 123 Vanderbilt. I wish to openly criticize these schools for scheduling too many cupcakes on their schedule and betting that their conference affiliation will get them into the NCAA. Each of these teams would have been welcome on the Dayton schedule and it would have been a positive for those teams to play Dayton because it would have raised their SOS.

In particular I wish to highlight Notre Dame’s position on this list as I always considered this fellow catholic school as a natural rival. A rival who played us in the past but no longer is willing to schedule Dayton.

DePaul at 183 and Miami of Ohio at 178 as natural rivals are also disgracing themselves and could have bettered their SOS by playing Dayton.

As natural rivals, Cincinnati at 59 and Xavier at 45 have reasonable SOS.
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	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 We will have to agree to disagree. Fair enough, it may not be Mr. Spina or the BOT holding Neil back, but someone/something is holding Neil back. I find it incredible that our last 3 or 4 AD's all saw things the exact same way, yet numerous other non-p5 AD's at very successful non-p5 programs during this same time period saw things differently. And is it not a huge coincidence that the 4 most successful A10 teams over the last 20-25 years, Temple, VCU, Butler, and Xavier, all employed this same strategy of scheduling up in the ooc? And we have been trying to dominate the A10 for the last 25 years, but we have largely failed. How about we slightly tweak our approach and see what happens?

I appreciate your argument, but you just won't seem to grasp 1 fatal flaw in it: the teams you mention like _avier from that era who have moved on to greater things have something in common besides the number of road games on the OOC schedule. What is that thing?



They kicked a$$ in their conference, year-in and year-out.



Do you think if it was UD winning the A10 regular season and conference tournament every year (or second place) during the BG years and AM years that anything MIGHT be different for us?



It's an incredibly easy argument to say "look guys, we just don't belong in this conference, we're tired of winning it every year and need tougher competition." When you know you're going to win the A10 anyway, schedule whoever you want. When you know you're going to come in 3rd or worse in most years--even with your best teams--you've got to try to game the SOS.


And when other teams can tell their fan base "well sure that team is in the A10, but they're not A10 quality, they dominate that conference every year; they're actually much better than that" it makes a HUGE difference to scheduling us. It's embarrassing to lose to the 3rd best team in the 11th best conference.



But if it's Butler. . . well, yeah, they're in the A10, but they're Butler. They're not REALLY an A10 team (back when they were). And the A10 was tougher then. He**'s bells, we struggle to win the A10 now and it's far worse than it was then.



So yes, when we start dominating the A10, that scheduling model might be the cart that follows that horse. As it is, we're stuck until we start winning every year.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I appreciate your argument, but you just won't seem to grasp 1 fatal flaw in it: the teams you mention like _avier from that era who have moved on to greater things have something in common besides the number of road games on the OOC schedule. What is that thing? They kicked a$$ in their conference, year-in and year-out. Do you think if it was UD winning the A10 regular season and conference tournament every year (or second place) during the BG years and AM years that anything MIGHT be different for us? It's an incredibly easy argument to say "look guys, we just don't belong in this conference, we're tired of winning it every year and need tougher competition." When you know you're going to win the A10 anyway, schedule whoever you want. When you know you're going to come in 3rd or worse in most years--even with your best teams--you've got to try to game the SOS. And when other teams can tell their fan base "well sure that team is in the A10, but they're not A10 quality, they dominate that conference every year; they're actually much better than that" it makes a HUGE difference to scheduling us. It's embarrassing to lose to the 3rd best team in the 11th best conference. But if it's Butler. . . well, yeah, they're in the A10, but they're Butler. They're not REALLY an A10 team (back when they were). And the A10 was tougher then. He**'s bells, we struggle to win the A10 now and it's far worse than it was then. So yes, when we start dominating the A10, that scheduling model might be the cart that follows that horse. As it is, we're stuck until we start winning every year.

Gaz pretty much said it all.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[m21eagle45]

UD2 please repeat after me:

Our OOC is not what is holding us back
Our OOC is not what is holding us back
Our OOC is not what is holding us back
Our OOC is not what is holding us back

We continually have a strong OOC. It is how we perform in the A10 that has been the problem since OP was coach. Play better in the A10 and all the scheduling issues go away.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by ud2 We had the #114 ncsos last year per Kenpom, do you think that is good enough for us being in the 11th best league in the country last year per Kenpom?

Yes I do, our non-con SOS didn't keep us out of the tournament last year, not winning the games did. Plus that's cherry picking, why don't you add up all the years Neil's been scheduling (which by the way goes back to well before he was AD) , average it, and then tell me what the number is?

[bcross]

Originally Posted by The Fly You’ll find statistical variances everywhere you look. The NCAA had Dayton at No. 43, second only to VCU in the A-10. https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-ba...e-sos-by-other

The looks like the old RPI calculation.

The NCAA (NET) had us at #98. (Page 69)

https://extra.ncaa.org/solutions/rpi...m%20Sheets.pdf

[FlyerGuyer]

We must have the permission from other schools that dont need us to somehow "do us a solid" when its probably not in their best interest to do so.

Virginia has scheduled VCU and George Washington consistently (both home and away) over the last several years in addition to scheduling Davidson twice at home. It has not hurt them at all. In fact, an argument can be made that Virginia is the top program in the country during that time period. They lost at George Washington during the 2015-16 season and still received a 1 seed in the Big Dance and advanced to the Elite 8. How many people cared that they lost to GW in November?

A loss to VCU, Davidson, or Dayton early in the season is not going to hurt most of these “power” conference teams at all. A win might even be considered a “good win” in some years. And people love seeing the Big Boys take on the smaller non-power conference teams. In fact, that’s almost the entire reason the NCAA Tournament is so popular.

Kudos and respect to Virginia for running what appears to be a classy and unafraid program. More schools should stop being cowards and follow Virginia’s quite successful model.

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer Virginia has scheduled VCU and George Washington consistently (both home and away) over the last several years in addition to scheduling Davidson twice at home. It has not hurt them at all. In fact, an argument can be made that Virginia is the top program in the country during that time period. They lost at George Washington during the 2015-16 season and still received a 1 seed in the Big Dance and advanced to the Elite 8. How many people cared that they lost to GW in November? A loss to VCU, Davidson, or Dayton early in the season is not going to hurt most of these “power” conference teams at all. A win might even be considered a “good win” in some years. And people love seeing the Big Boys take on the smaller non-power conference teams. In fact, that’s almost the entire reason the NCAA Tournament is so popular. Kudos and respect to Virginia for running what appears to be a classy and unafraid program. More schools should stop being cowards and follow Virginia’s quite successful model.

Virginia believes in playing the Virginia schools. They have a rotation with all the Va Schools. This is something OSU should follow.

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

[Chris R]

Its difficult to compare scheduling from one school to another and make fair comparisons because every institution has arrived from different places over the last 30 years. Scheduling difficulty is deep-rooted in many things but while many schools struggle to schedule, the reasons why are oftentimes unique to them.

Dayton is no different. The struggle has not been a recent phenomenon that Wabler or Sullivan had to fix. This started three decades ago with the slide of UD basketball under the last couple of seasons under Donoher. Its the beginning of death-by-1000-cuts.

When we joined the MCC, things seemed to stabilize a bit while we maintained a relationship with Marquette and Notre Dame (in everything but MBB). But other than 1990 we were not overly competitive.

The Great Midwest is where UD really lost traction both competitively and in our long-standing relationships with schools we could count on for scheduling. While Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul were alongside us, we atrophied and lost their respect -- so much so that when Conference-USA was formed they told us to beat it. That was an extremely humbling moment. Schools we had relationships with for decades and oftentimes played twice a season even as independents suddenly felt we were no longer their equals. And we werent.

At the same time, we started losing other long-standing relationships with quality non-conference schools. Louisville and Dayton were scheduling mainstays for decades. They dropped us and rarely played us again. Notre Dame, which was not a part of the GMW or CUSA but joined the Big East, had basically severed ties with us when we left the MCC. Marquette and DePaul and Cincinnati did likewise when they moved to C-USA. Even quality programs with few historical ties but some conference affiliation like Memphis wanted nothing to do with us ever again.

In a span of about 6-7 seasons we had broken every significant relationship with that we deemed to be peer schools. And because so many were regional opponents, it especially hurt because these were neighborhood schools no longer wishing to show their face down our cul de sac.

Meanwhile all of this strained some of the relationship with Xavier when we left the MCC for the GMW thinking we were too good for them. Within 5-6 years, UD MBB was on life support and Xavier was earning strong NCAA seeds.

The A10 was a lifeline. But what security the A10 provided us, it completely uprooted our traditional footprint forged over the prior 50 years. Dayton went from focusing on Great Lakes opponents to playing teams mostly on the east coast with few historical ties other than LaSalle and Duquesne which was not all that flattering. Fortunately Xavier came along with us and who knows how many levers they pulled to "do us a solid" and do our own bidding. But dont discount that without Xavier our best sales pitch would have been less effective because on our own we had nothing to sell but blue sky.

We entered the A10 on fumes. It took about 5 years for Purnell to get us back to respectability. But when we had some chances to make up bigger ground and earn back some of the street cred we had lost in the prior decade -- we came up short. We lost to Purdue by a basket and got trucked by a #13 seed in the NCAAs, keeping our NCAA victory drought ongoing.

By 2003 and 2004, the A10 was our lone identity. ND, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, Butler, had all but abandoned us forever. These were scheduling guarantees for decades prior. Ohio State no longer played schools in the state of Ohio. All that was left was Miami in the non-con and Xavier in the A10 as far as historical opponents. Scheduling-wise, all that was left were scraps of the bygone days.

Gregory took over and once again got our kneecaps taken out when we had a chance to make up some ground when we most needed it -- losing in 2OT to DePaul in the NCAAs. We finally broke through w/the West Virginia win in 2009 but at that point the two decades of postseason irrelevance were mostly irreversible. By this time the Big East had ballooned into a hybrid football/basketball megaconference where our former "peers" were now "peering" among themselves. While Dayton was absent, the bonds between Notre Dame, Marquette, DePaul, Cincinnati etc just got stronger. So it hurt twice. Meanwhile Butler managed to punch its way to a pair of national title games out of the Horizon -- forever elevating their brand that would pay dividends a few years later under re-alignment.

The same could be said of Creighton, who gained traction from habitual NCAA appearances (though not necessarily wins) and created nationally-respected brand names with guys like Kyle Korver, Nate Funk, and Doug McDermott. The Jays had become a consistent NCAA program -- they have made 12 NCAAs just since 1999. They were a safe reliable stock that paid a yearly dividend.

Not to be outdone, Dayton's performance within the A10 remained tepid at best despite being one of the favorites several times. Gregory failed to deliver consistent A10 success to at least give us the excuse that since we're cleaning up in our own league, its only natural we'd want to upgrade our conference -- we didn't have that ammunition either. After 25 years in the A10, our only tournament title remains the one we played on our home court -- a most unimpressive and embarrassing set of circumstances for a program like ours. Purnell, Gregory, and Archie all take some of the blame.

As the Big East re-aligned, Dayton had no face cards to play. It was 25 years of slow, methodical degradation: broken historical ties, broken geographic ties, poor league consistency, poor postseason opportunism, league realignments, the explosion of Power-5 football, new league-specific TV networks and contracts...

...and any single slip was not the underlying primary reason. It was an amalgam that in their totality proved to be damaging to scheduling both inside and outside a conference. No single piranha does you in -- its the school of piranha you can't fight off.

By 2014 or so, all historical ties to pretty much every school we grew up with were untouchable. The punch to the gut was when Xavier left us in the A10 and did to us what we did to Xavier in the MCC. Only Xavier was in a much stronger position to withstand our departure in 1993 whereas we were not when they left for the Big East. And it hurt even more because we wanted what Xavier had and didnt get it. In short, it was a bit of an inferiority complex that was wholly earned from 25 years of coming up short in far too many areas of mens basketball.

When the smoke cleared after the latest re-alignment, Dayton was left in an east coast league they should probably dominate but dont, and with a non-conference schedule comprised of new names because the entire old guard had used the last 25 years to improve their position in life and it no longer included the Flyers.

Its only because Dayton is a unique product of average to above average performance but exceptional support and amenities that we havent fallen further than we have. The support for the program has allowed us to continue to receive invitations to only Tier-1 exempt tournaments -- something rarely reserved for anyone outside the P-6. Archie certainly walked back SOME of the damage that had been done in the prior two decades with the NCAA success, but you can't erase all those missed opportunities, futility, and un-mended fences with 1 or 2 NCAA runs.

Why? Because the landscape of college basketball has not been static over those 25 years. Its a completely different place now. While Dayton MBB has changed, everybody and everything else around us has changed too. Unfortunately those changes were at a pace we could not keep up with for all the reasons I just cited and eventually it catches up to you.

The scheduling problem has only been compounded by the fact that as we pine for a more balanced and competitive A10 schedule, it forces us to place more emphasis on the non-league schedule -- at a time when the ability to do so is at an all-time low. We need other schools from other leagues more than ever, and yet they need us less than ever. That's the landscape we now find ourselves in.

No other school in the country has these very complicated and deep and numerous reasons that mirror Dayton's current predicament. Other schools have scheduling issues too, but they reached the same place from a different boat. Dayton used to be one of the four Great Independents. Only three other schools out of 350+ can claim that title. Yet in 2019, three of those other four did enough (or just enough) at the right time and place to ensure they were in a better position today. And some of UD's current situation is just bad luck. DePaul was strong when GMW and CUSA were formed but quickly tailed off into obscurity. But they did just enough to gain Big East acceptance and having those relationships for over a decade kept them close enough to the teams that mattered to stick around when the Big East was re-fashioned.

You cant look at these scheduling difficulties in a vacuum and explain them away with easy excuses. Its deep-rooted and the result of countless small but meaningful realities that have tied our hands. Other schools have their hands tied too, but everybody got there in a different way. And everyone has their hands tied with different knots to try to escape. What works for one school doesnt necessarily mean it is viable for another. Just way too many variables from 30 years of changing winds.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[AZFlyer85]

God , I long for new discussion threads. here's one to chew on - is moving the 3 point line out a foot and a half a good thing for UD? After all, we always **** and moan about not having outside shooting, while our opponents rain down 3's on us. Discuss

[CT Flyer]

Depaul being in Chicago also covers for their lack of success blemishes. Dayton as a city is not Chicago as we all know.

[FlyerGuyer]

Epic, sweeping historical lesson from ChrisR. You won’t see those kind of posts on Twitter...

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

[UD62]

Agree that how we got where we are is a complex issue. The solution however is not as complicated, Win. We didn't do enough of it at critical times in the past, couple that with questionable management of the program in the late 80's and early 90's and we are where we are. Had we had a history of mostly first or second place finishes in the conferences we were in at the time, the situation would be completely different. same with the A-10, bunch of middle of the pack or worse finishes has not been helpful. Can AG overcome the drawbacks of conference and perception by recruits, maybe maybe not. At least he appears to be giving it a strong effort.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 God , I long for new discussion threads. here's one to chew on - is moving the 3 point line out a foot and a half a good thing for UD? After all, we always **** and moan about not having outside shooting, while our opponents rain down 3's on us. Discuss

There’s already an active thread titled “19-20 Season News/Discussion.” This thread is about scheduling.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R Its difficult to compare scheduling from one school to another and make fair comparisons because every institution has arrived from different places over the last 30 years. Scheduling difficulty is deep-rooted in many things but while many schools struggle to schedule, the reasons why are oftentimes unique to them. Dayton is no different. The struggle has not been a recent phenomenon that Wabler or Sullivan had to fix. This started three decades ago with the slide of UD basketball under the last couple of seasons under Donoher. Its the beginning of death-by-1000-cuts. When we joined the MCC, things seemed to stabilize a bit while we maintained a relationship with Marquette and Notre Dame (in everything but MBB). But other than 1990 we were not overly competitive. The Great Midwest is where UD really lost traction both competitively and in our long-standing relationships with schools we could count on for scheduling. While Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul were alongside us, we atrophied and lost their respect -- so much so that when Conference-USA was formed they told us to beat it. That was an extremely humbling moment. Schools we had relationships with for decades and oftentimes played twice a season even as independents suddenly felt we were no longer their equals. And we werent. At the same time, we started losing other long-standing relationships with quality non-conference schools. Louisville and Dayton were scheduling mainstays for decades. They dropped us and rarely played us again. Notre Dame, which was not a part of the GMW or CUSA but joined the Big East, had basically severed ties with us when we left the MCC. Marquette and DePaul and Cincinnati did likewise when they moved to C-USA. Even quality programs with few historical ties but some conference affiliation like Memphis wanted nothing to do with us ever again. In a span of about 6-7 seasons we had broken every significant relationship with that we deemed to be peer schools. And because so many were regional opponents, it especially hurt because these were neighborhood schools no longer wishing to show their face down our cul de sac. Meanwhile all of this strained some of the relationship with Xavier when we left the MCC for the GMW thinking we were too good for them. Within 5-6 years, UD MBB was on life support and Xavier was earning strong NCAA seeds. The A10 was a lifeline. But what security the A10 provided us, it completely uprooted our traditional footprint forged over the prior 50 years. Dayton went from focusing on Great Lakes opponents to playing teams mostly on the east coast with few historical ties other than LaSalle and Duquesne which was not all that flattering. Fortunately Xavier came along with us and who knows how many levers they pulled to "do us a solid" and do our own bidding. But dont discount that without Xavier our best sales pitch would have been less effective because on our own we had nothing to sell but blue sky. We entered the A10 on fumes. It took about 5 years for Purnell to get us back to respectability. But when we had some chances to make up bigger ground and earn back some of the street cred we had lost in the prior decade -- we came up short. We lost to Purdue by a basket and got trucked by a #13 seed in the NCAAs, keeping our NCAA victory drought ongoing. By 2003 and 2004, the A10 was our lone identity. ND, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, Butler, had all but abandoned us forever. These were scheduling guarantees for decades prior. Ohio State no longer played schools in the state of Ohio. All that was left was Miami in the non-con and Xavier in the A10 as far as historical opponents. Scheduling-wise, all that was left were scraps of the bygone days. Gregory took over and once again got our kneecaps taken out when we had a chance to make up some ground when we most needed it -- losing in 2OT to DePaul in the NCAAs. We finally broke through w/the West Virginia win in 2009 but at that point the two decades of postseason irrelevance were mostly irreversible. By this time the Big East had ballooned into a hybrid football/basketball megaconference where our former "peers" were now "peering" among themselves. While Dayton was absent, the bonds between Notre Dame, Marquette, DePaul, Cincinnati etc just got stronger. So it hurt twice. Meanwhile Butler managed to punch its way to a pair of national title games out of the Horizon -- forever elevating their brand that would pay dividends a few years later under re-alignment. The same could be said of Creighton, who gained traction from habitual NCAA appearances (though not necessarily wins) and created nationally-respected brand names with guys like Kyle Korver, Nate Funk, and Doug McDermott. The Jays had become a consistent NCAA program -- they have made 12 NCAAs just since 1999. They were a safe reliable stock that paid a yearly dividend. Not to be outdone, Dayton's performance within the A10 remained tepid at best despite being one of the favorites several times. Gregory failed to deliver consistent A10 success to at least give us the excuse that since we're cleaning up in our own league, its only natural we'd want to upgrade our conference -- we didn't have that ammunition either. After 25 years in the A10, our only tournament title remains the one we played on our home court -- a most unimpressive and embarrassing set of circumstances for a program like ours. Purnell, Gregory, and Archie all take some of the blame. As the Big East re-aligned, Dayton had no face cards to play. It was 25 years of slow, methodical degradation: broken historical ties, broken geographic ties, poor league consistency, poor postseason opportunism, league realignments, the explosion of Power-5 football, new league-specific TV networks and contracts... ...and any single slip was not the underlying primary reason. It was an amalgam that in their totality proved to be damaging to scheduling both inside and outside a conference. No single piranha does you in -- its the school of piranha you can't fight off. By 2014 or so, all historical ties to pretty much every school we grew up with were untouchable. The punch to the gut was when Xavier left us in the A10 and did to us what we did to Xavier in the MCC. Only Xavier was in a much stronger position to withstand our departure in 1993 whereas we were not when they left for the Big East. And it hurt even more because we wanted what Xavier had and didnt get it. In short, it was a bit of an inferiority complex that was wholly earned from 25 years of coming up short in far too many areas of mens basketball. When the smoke cleared after the latest re-alignment, Dayton was left in an east coast league they should probably dominate but dont, and with a non-conference schedule comprised of new names because the entire old guard had used the last 25 years to improve their position in life and it no longer included the Flyers. Its only because Dayton is a unique product of average to above average performance but exceptional support and amenities that we havent fallen further than we have. The support for the program has allowed us to continue to receive invitations to only Tier-1 exempt tournaments -- something rarely reserved for anyone outside the P-6. Archie certainly walked back SOME of the damage that had been done in the prior two decades with the NCAA success, but you can't erase all those missed opportunities, futility, and un-mended fences with 1 or 2 NCAA runs. Why? Because the landscape of college basketball has not been static over those 25 years. Its a completely different place now. While Dayton MBB has changed, everybody and everything else around us has changed too. Unfortunately those changes were at a pace we could not keep up with for all the reasons I just cited and eventually it catches up to you. The scheduling problem has only been compounded by the fact that as we pine for a more balanced and competitive A10 schedule, it forces us to place more emphasis on the non-league schedule -- at a time when the ability to do so is at an all-time low. We need other schools from other leagues more than ever, and yet they need us less than ever. That's the landscape we now find ourselves in. No other school in the country has these very complicated and deep and numerous reasons that mirror Dayton's current predicament. Other schools have scheduling issues too, but they reached the same place from a different boat. Dayton used to be one of the four Great Independents. Only three other schools out of 350+ can claim that title. Yet in 2019, three of those other four did enough (or just enough) at the right time and place to ensure they were in a better position today. And some of UD's current situation is just bad luck. DePaul was strong when GMW and CUSA were formed but quickly tailed off into obscurity. But they did just enough to gain Big East acceptance and having those relationships for over a decade kept them close enough to the teams that mattered to stick around when the Big East was re-fashioned. You cant look at these scheduling difficulties in a vacuum and explain them away with easy excuses. Its deep-rooted and the result of countless small but meaningful realities that have tied our hands. Other schools have their hands tied too, but everybody got there in a different way. And everyone has their hands tied with different knots to try to escape. What works for one school doesnt necessarily mean it is viable for another. Just way too many variables from 30 years of changing winds.

Well done Chris.

And while it's complicated, there are some crucial aspects that may be simple to understand but beyond one's control. If Depaul and Dayton switched geographical locations UD probably would have been the choice by the new Big East, given the importance of TV. UConn faces a similar conundrum. By any reasonable measure UConn's athletics program has been far more successful than nearby Rutgers....but with RU in metro NYC, selecting RU over UConn was a no-brainer for the Big Ten.

However, in spite of the sorry saga you skillfully described, I think there is an answer that we have more than a little control over. If UD comes to dominate the A10 by regular season and tournament play we will be noticed....can't help but be noticed...providing an opportunity to change our fortunes. That is the one thing we have the potential to do on our own. Can coach AG pull that off? I don't know. But considering his age and UD connection AG is highly unlikely to view UD as a stepping stone, If UD is Grant's "destination" job and if he's good enough, maybe it can happen.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Chris R Dayton was left in an east coast league they should probably dominate but dont

Great post, but this part seemed hyperbolic to me. We can't just pretend SLU, VCU, Rhody, Davidson and SBU don't exist.

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Chris R]

VCU, SLU, Davidson, Butler were not even around when we were underperforming.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Great post, but this part seemed hyperbolic to me. We can't just pretend SLU, VCU, Rhody, Davidson and SBU don't exist.

I think the POTUS calls it “truthful hyperbole.”

[springborofan]

That was a fantastic post Chris. In summary, my take is we can point to two different root causes for the current situation.

First and most obvious is inefficiency. UD is probably in the bottom five of “wins per revenue”. UD consistently ranks in the top 25 in attendance (above many blue bloods) yet, as you pointed out in your post, we’ve never consistently won to the point we’re consistently in the NCAA tournament. The “wins per revenue” contrast within the A10 is even more stark. What caused that? Obviously, JOB started it. OP and BG started digging the program out of the deep hole but each plateaued before the job was complete. AM left before he could complete the job as well. Should the administration been less willing to accept the leveling off? In particular BG’s inability to do better in conference?

This leads me to what I believe is the second (and more fundamental) root cause: institutional sclerosis. This has been going on since the 80’s when UD decided to not join a TV network. Being late to joining a conference also hurt. Staying with JOB too long. Not accepting at risk students until pushed to do so. The list is I’m sure longer. My biggest fear is that UD is again sticking with the status quo relative to the changes occurring now: namely the 20 game conference schedules and the installation of NET as the primary decision point; not just for getting an at large bid but what is the best seed UD could get?

I get the camp that maintains the “just win baby” mantra. I’m just concerned that, given the new environment, winning the A10 will only get UD a 7 seed at best anymore and many times the dreaded 8 or 9 seed. It will be extremely difficult to consistently get to the second w/e with that seeding. The only way to get a 4 or 5 seed is to win more high quality non conference games. We can all whine about how unfair it is to UD that no one will give us a H/H or we can break the scheduling mold and go on the road. What is holding us back? It’s not $’s that one or two less home games would bring. I argue it is the same thing that got us in this spot in the first place: an inability to adapt to the current environment. Flame away...

[Kansas City Flyer 99]

Todd Golden who is a Indiana St writer reporting that Indiana State will open there season at Dayton.

Dayton needs to work with MVC schools as they seem to have the same issue in scheduling P5 teams.

[lhsgolf19]

Originally Posted by Kansas City Flyer 99 Todd Golden who is a Indiana St writer reporting that Indiana State will open there season at Dayton. Dayton needs to work with MVC schools as they seem to have the same issue in scheduling P5 teams.

Solid opener

[UD62]

Interesting that the Flyers open the football season at Indiana state. They are a scholarship program so it will be a strong test.

[Kansas City Flyer 99]

The game against Indiana State is scheduled for Saturday Nov. 9th.

I believe teams can start playing games that whole week, so UD might schedule a game before the ISU game.

Interesting note from Todd A. Golden twitter: Indiana State will also travel to Louisville Nov 12th or 13th.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by Kansas City Flyer 99 The game against Indiana State is scheduled for Saturday Nov. 9th. I believe teams can start playing games that whole week, so UD might schedule a game before the ISU game. Interesting note from Todd A. Golden twitter: Indiana State will also travel to Louisville Nov 12th or 13th.

It's the season opener for the Flyers on Sept.7. ISU opens the week before at Kansas

[m21eagle45]

ISU will be decent this year. They have 2 of the better guards in the MVC in Barnes and Key, and they had a freshman wing that can light it up. If he was more consistent, they would have been a better team last year.

[TX Flyer]

Cut football and equal amount of women’s sports and then take 3 road games against true P5 teams. I see no reason to keep football around. Does anyone even attend the games?

[UD62]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Cut football and equal amount of women’s sports and then take 3 road games against true P5 teams. I see no reason to keep football around. Does anyone even attend the games?

Thankfully you don't run the athletic department.

[Flyer68]

Chris R. - Having been a fan since 1964 I lived through all those coaches and teams sometimes scratching my head and wondering why UD BB was, while not on a downward spiral, was having too many ups and downs. Now I have a better understanding and prospective. It is a combination of many causes and effects.

I like to think that with the hiring of AG and new recruiting, that things are getting better and I look forward to this fall. But then that was probably the prevailing hopes with OP, BG and AM were hired and each improved the program to a point.

Thank you for the historical prospective on UD BB. Take the rest of the summer off.

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Cut football and equal amount of women’s sports and then take 3 road games against true P5 teams. I see no reason to keep football around. Does anyone even attend the games?

Absolutely Not!

[rollo]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Cut football and equal amount of women’s sports and then take 3 road games against true P5 teams. I see no reason to keep football around. Does anyone even attend the games?

In order to have a D1 basketball team, you must have X amount of other D1 teams in both men's and women's sports. It's why UD's D3 football team went to D1-AA years and years ago (FCS today) in an NCAA compromise related to Title IX.

If UD adopts your plan, no P5 team would answer our calls because we'd immediately be D2...or lower.

UGH!

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Chris R You cant look at these scheduling difficulties in a vacuum and explain them away with easy excuses. Its deep-rooted and the result of countless small but meaningful realities that have tied our hands. Other schools have their hands tied too, but everybody got there in a different way. And everyone has their hands tied with different knots to try to escape. What works for one school doesnt necessarily mean it is viable for another. Just way too many variables from 30 years of changing winds.

Another way of looking at it (but saying the same thing) is like the philosophy thought problem where the water in the puddle says "this hole was made especially for me! Look, it's exactly my size!" We're where we are because of what we did. _avier and Butler are where they are because of what they did. If Butler had sucked for those years, they'd still be in the old conference and Wright State would be in a top tier conference.

Someone had to win, and someone had to lose.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 UD2 please repeat after me: Our OOC is not what is holding us back Our OOC is not what is holding us back Our OOC is not what is holding us back Our OOC is not what is holding us back We continually have a strong OOC. It is how we perform in the A10 that has been the problem since OP was coach. Play better in the A10 and all the scheduling issues go away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E...asketball_team

13–5 A-10, last team in the tourney

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E...asketball_team 13–5 A-10, last team in the tourney

Since the A10 got rid of divisions we have finished:
T–11th
T–7th
T–7th
2nd NCAA Second Round
7th NIT Champions
8th NIT First round
T–5th NIT First round
T–11th
5th NCAA Elite Eight
2nd NCAA Third Round
T–1st NCAA First Round
1st NCAA First Round
9th
3rd NIT First Round

Average of 5.64. That is not going to get it done. We need to finish in the top 3 in the conference every year for a chance at an at large. We have not done that.

Anyone can point to one season to cherry pick a point. You have to look at the big picture, and we have not performed well enough in the league.

[OSU Flyer]

I agree we've got to do better in the A10 and for the past the OOC schedules would get the job done

In the new world of power conferences moving the 20 schedules, the emphasis on quality wins versus all else by the committee and the erosion of the A10 I don't think the old schedule realities hold

Time will tell but I think this is a new world

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 Average of 5.64. That is not going to get it done. We need to finish in the top 3 in the conference every year for a chance at an at large. We have not done that. Anyone can point to one season to cherry pick a point. You have to look at the big picture, and we have not performed well enough in the league.

Reminds me of my UD days where One A (=4 pts) did not get me to a C average (2 pts) when all the rest were D's (1 pt).

Although I tried to tell the parents it was the other way around (you know 1 is good 4 is not so good) as in We're No. 1 !!!!!!!!



Hey! Can't blame a guy for trying ..... I shoulda got an A for effort on that point alone!

[maddog07]

Neil Sullivan spoke the other day and said we came close to having Boston College for the opening of the newly completed arena but it fell through. He went on to say that schools like those in the big10 are immediately committed to 25 of their 31 games by way of their conference schedule and TV games like the big10/acc challenge. Accordingly, he said our ability to schedule p5 schools is severely undermined.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E...asketball_team 13–5 A-10, last team in the tourney

Gonzaga, starting with 2017-2018 and moving backward:

17-1
15-3
17-1
15-3
16-0
13-3
11-3
12-2
14-0
14-0
13-1
11-3
14-0
12-2
14-0
12-2


You want respect? Then don't finish 15-3 as one of your best years and then drop to 11th* in the league.


EDIT: TIED for 11th.

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Gonzaga, starting with 2017-2018 and moving backward: 17-1 15-3 17-1 15-3 16-0 13-3 11-3 12-2 14-0 14-0 13-1 11-3 14-0 12-2 14-0 12-2 You want respect? Then don't finish 15-3 as one of your best years and then drop to 11th* in the league. EDIT: TIED for 11th.

Consistency has not been one of our strong points. Hopefully AG wants to stick around for the duration, so far, it looks like he is going to build a consistent product.

[OSU Flyer]

You add this year onto the chart and there's been a clear pattern of decline with the A10

The scheduling that worked for OOC in the past worked with a much stronger A10. The quality wins in the conference aren't there like were in the past

VCU went 16-2 in A10 and got rewarded with an 8th seed

[LIBob]

Originally Posted by rollo In order to have a D1 basketball team, you must have X amount of other D1 teams in both men's and women's sports. It's why UD's D3 football team went to D1-AA years and years ago (FCS today) in an NCAA compromise related to Title IX. If UD adopts your plan, no P5 team would answer our calls because we'd immediately be D2...or lower. UGH!

Technically, that's incorrect. The football team changed to D1-AA because the NCAA eliminated the rule that allowed you to have one D-3 team in any sport if you were D1 in all the others. Primarily, because of how much UD's football team was dominating in D-3.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan That was a fantastic post Chris. In summary, my take is we can point to two different root causes for the current situation. First and most obvious is inefficiency. UD is probably in the bottom five of “wins per revenue”. UD consistently ranks in the top 25 in attendance (above many blue bloods) yet, as you pointed out in your post, we’ve never consistently won to the point we’re consistently in the NCAA tournament. The “wins per revenue” contrast within the A10 is even more stark. What caused that? Obviously, JOB started it. OP and BG started digging the program out of the deep hole but each plateaued before the job was complete. AM left before he could complete the job as well. Should the administration been less willing to accept the leveling off? In particular BG’s inability to do better in conference? This leads me to what I believe is the second (and more fundamental) root cause: institutional sclerosis. This has been going on since the 80’s when UD decided to not join a TV network. Being late to joining a conference also hurt. Staying with JOB too long. Not accepting at risk students until pushed to do so. The list is I’m sure longer. My biggest fear is that UD is again sticking with the status quo relative to the changes occurring now: namely the 20 game conference schedules and the installation of NET as the primary decision point; not just for getting an at large bid but what is the best seed UD could get? I get the camp that maintains the “just win baby” mantra. I’m just concerned that, given the new environment, winning the A10 will only get UD a 7 seed at best anymore and many times the dreaded 8 or 9 seed. It will be extremely difficult to consistently get to the second w/e with that seeding. The only way to get a 4 or 5 seed is to win more high quality non conference games. We can all whine about how unfair it is to UD that no one will give us a H/H or we can break the scheduling mold and go on the road. What is holding us back? It’s not $’s that one or two less home games would bring. I argue it is the same thing that got us in this spot in the first place: an inability to adapt to the current environment. Flame away...

Could not agree more...feels like we have no plan for how we are going to win a national title other than "just win baby", a plan that has not worked since the late 1960's. We have not adjusted our approach in forever.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by springborofan The only way to get a 4 or 5 seed is to win more high quality non conference games. We can all whine about how unfair it is to UD that no one will give us a H/H or we can break the scheduling mold and go on the road. What is holding us back?

Originally Posted by Chris R Never been a question of Dayton offering to play good teams -- home, neutral, or away. The impasse is getting those opponents to want to play Dayton. Most don't want anywhere near the game. They don't want Dayton, they don't need Dayton. These P6 teams want pushover buy games, not competitive buy games. Its not in their best interest to do otherwise.

springborofan, I think Chris' post answers your question. And being a Pride+ member, you should know the efforts Neil has made to get good games.

[OSU Flyer]

The emphasis from the committee now is getting Quad 1 wins (Top 25 NET for home W, Top 50 for a neutral W, Top 75 for a road W).

It's almost impossible (save for good luck like the Auburn series) to get a Quad 1 win at home. For a team in Dayton's position it almost has to get those on the road or a neutral court

to add the new reality for the A10, 15-16 St. Bonaventure went 14-4 in conference play had a 30 RPI

I'm not trying to knock Neil or say that the scheduling is a disaster but more a point on the challenges UD has going forward

[ud2]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer The emphasis from the committee now is getting Quad 1 wins (Top 25 NET for home W, Top 50 for a neutral W, Top 75 for a road W). It's almost impossible (save for good luck like the Auburn series) to get a Quad 1 win at home. For a team in Dayton's position it almost has to get those on the road or a neutral court to add the new reality for the A10, 15-16 St. Bonaventure went 14-4 in conference play had a 30 RPI I'm not trying to knock Neil or say that the scheduling is a disaster but more a point on the challenges UD has going forward

30 rpi for sbu? Not 125?


http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_atl10_Men.html

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 30 rpi for sbu? Not 125? http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_atl10_Men.html

2015-16 season

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer 2015-16 season

Maybe not THE biggest snub, but certainly in the team-photo of all-time worst snubs.

By my count we now have:

Indiana State
Maui (N)
Maui (N)
Maui (N)
Colorado (N, Chicago)

Based on discussions in this thread we probably will also have a mainland Maui opponent which puts us at 6-7 games left to be filled (or announced, rather).

[ud2]

I think our scheduling model cost us an undetermined number of seed lines during Archie's last 3 years, maybe as many as around 4 seeds in any particular year.

Same thing with Purnell and BG.

And I think you could argue that BG might still be the hc here had we adopted a different scheduling model, as BG did pretty well against tougher OOC opponents, which IMO may have enabled BG to earn more at-large bids.

In addition, the scheduling model is costing us money IMO: better seeds lead to more NCAAT wins and more NCAAT bids would come as a result of better scheduling.

[Chris R]

Seed lines arent all that important anymore with parity. It's mostly about favorable/unfavorable matchups based on style and personnel strengths/weakensses.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Chris R Seed lines arent all that important anymore with parity. It's mostly about favorable/unfavorable matchups based on style and personnel strengths/weakensses.

The data does not back that up at all. Percentage-wise, as your seed improves, your chances of winning in any particular round increase. That is totally indisputable.

You have a much better chance of advancing, for example, as a 4 or 5 vs. a 7.

[TXFlyerFan]

Most "upsets" in the tournament are teams in the 4-7 seed, which typically puts a mid-tier P5 school against a mid-major conference/tournament winner. If you are below a 3, you always run the risk of playing a hot mid-major

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think our scheduling model cost us an undetermined number of seed lines during Archie's last 3 years, maybe as many as around 4 seeds in any particular year. Same thing with Purnell and BG. And I think you could argue that BG might still be the hc here had we adopted a different scheduling model, as BG did pretty well against tougher OOC opponents, which IMO may have enabled BG to earn more at-large bids. In addition, the scheduling model is costing us money IMO: better seeds lead to more NCAAT wins and more NCAAT bids would come as a result of better scheduling.

There is just simply no number of facts that you're willing to overlook in order to insist on your position being right, is there?

So 4 seed lines--16 spots in ranking--were because we didn't play 1 more tough team on the road (statistically likely to lose) instead of a win at home.

16 spots.

Under BG, if we beat someone at home then go 8-8 in conference we're a 10 seed as the 40th best team in the country. But if we lose to Duke on the road by 20, go 8-8 in conference, then we're a 6 seed, and the 24th best team in the country. We go from unranked to ranked in the top 25 by losing on the road to Duke. In November.

Let's say we beat Duke in November on the road. When we go 8-8 in conference, none of those 8 losses knock us out of the top 25?

I don't see "Others Receiving Votes: Dayton (3)" being on the 6 seed line.

[CE80]

Just maybe the better seeds have a better record in the tourney because they are better teams. Just maybe.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo There is just simply no number of facts that you're willing to overlook in order to insist on your position being right, is there? So 4 seed lines--16 spots in ranking--were because we didn't play 1 more tough team on the road (statistically likely to lose) instead of a win at home. 16 spots. Under BG, if we beat someone at home then go 8-8 in conference we're a 10 seed as the 40th best team in the country. But if we lose to Duke on the road by 20, go 8-8 in conference, then we're a 6 seed, and the 24th best team in the country. We go from unranked to ranked in the top 25 by losing on the road to Duke. In November. Let's say we beat Duke in November on the road. When we go 8-8 in conference, none of those 8 losses knock us out of the top 25? I don't see "Others Receiving Votes: Dayton (3)" being on the 6 seed line.

2 games not 1...I have said that countless times.

2 more good wins could definitely move you up 16 spots in the rankings, I have already posted the math on that multiple times, the math is indisputable. Not only that, but you are dropping 2 clunker games, which also improves your sos and rpi.

[IndianaFlyer]

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of playing anybody, anytime, anywhere. I think nearly all of us feel that way. The problem is Neil has told Chris there are no takers from the power conferences. I don't necessarily think UD2's philosophy is bad, he just refuses to acknowledge that the big boys aren't interested in us. They simply have nothing to gain from the game, even if it is on their home floor.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud2]

Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of playing anybody, anytime, anywhere. I think nearly all of us feel that way. The problem is Neil has told Chris there are no takers from the power conferences. I don't necessarily think UD2's philosophy is bad, he just refuses to acknowledge that the big boys aren't interested in us. They simply have nothing to gain from the game, even if it is on their home floor. Posted via Mobile Device

I have acknowledged p5 reluctance countless times, so play the next best willing opponent. There are plenty of good, willing non-p5 opponents.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Chris R Seed lines arent all that important anymore with parity. It's mostly about favorable/unfavorable matchups based on style and personnel strengths/weakensses.

With all due respect, this was a completely nonsensical post.

The tables below prove out that the better the seed, the better the chance of advancing. It is very, very clear and easy to understand. This is a total no-brainer concept.


https://www.betfirm.com/seeds-nation...pionship-odds/


https://www.boydsbets.com/bracket-tips-by-seed/

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan springborofan, I think Chris' post answers your question. And being a Pride+ member, you should know the efforts Neil has made to get good games.

Chris posted in Pride + that a certain Mountain West team, that I will not name, complained of having the same problem that we have, so I think the obvious question then is why don't we just establish a permanent or nearly-permanent home and home series with this team?

[ud2]

I looked up the unnamed team, they were a q1 away win, top 75, 15 times over a recent time period. 6 of those being a q1 home win.

That is good enough for me.

Certainly better than getting zero q1 opportunities from our typical buy game opponents.

Season Record RPI Rank SOS Rank

2016-2017 18-15 0.5280 118 0.5291 93
2015-2016 17-15 0.5188 141 0.5227 111
2014-2015 15-16 0.4998 172 0.5132 120
2013-2014 27-6 0.6279 12 0.5648 42
2012-2013 29-5 0.6712 2 0.6032 2
2011-2012 26-6 0.6063 27 0.5381 82
2010-2011 20-12 0.5631 66 0.5412 80
2009-2010 29-4 0.6294 10 0.5462 70
2008-2009 21-11 0.5655 66 0.5376 79
2007-2008 24-8 0.5650 59 0.5022 155
2006-2007 14-17 0.4923 166 0.5263 105
2005-2006 17-13 0.5218 120 0.5170 117
2004-2005 25-6 0.5570 67 0.4689 227
2003-2004 12-14 0.5032 145 0.5170 112
2002-2003 9-18 0.4934 168 0.5467 63
2001-2002 16-13 0.5581 66 0.5602 31
2000-2001 18-12 0.5707 52 0.5609 44
1999-2000 16-13 0.5454 85 0.5433 69
1998-1999 23-8 0.5509 74 0.4873 157
1997-1998 23-7 0.6157 14 0.5654 32
1996-1997 23-7 0.6089 14 0.5563 44
1995-1996 26-4 0.6010 24 0.5125 116
1994-1995 14-15 0.5185 117 0.5305 83
1993-1994 21-7 0.5720 45 0.5127 105

[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo There is just simply no number of facts that you're willing to overlook in order to insist on your position being right, is there? So 4 seed lines--16 spots in ranking--were because we didn't play 1 more tough team on the road (statistically likely to lose) instead of a win at home. 16 spots. Under BG, if we beat someone at home then go 8-8 in conference we're a 10 seed as the 40th best team in the country. But if we lose to Duke on the road by 20, go 8-8 in conference, then we're a 6 seed, and the 24th best team in the country. We go from unranked to ranked in the top 25 by losing on the road to Duke. In November. Let's say we beat Duke in November on the road. When we go 8-8 in conference, none of those 8 losses knock us out of the top 25? I don't see "Others Receiving Votes: Dayton (3)" being on the 6 seed line.

Indiana loses 12 of 13 but beats MSU twice and almost gets in. If we beat two “premier” teams, which we don’t play btw, we could definitely move up. But again, you can’t win if you don’t play them

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo There is just simply no number of facts that you're willing to overlook in order to insist on your position being right, is there? So 4 seed lines--16 spots in ranking--were because we didn't play 1 more tough team on the road (statistically likely to lose) instead of a win at home. 16 spots. Under BG, if we beat someone at home then go 8-8 in conference we're a 10 seed as the 40th best team in the country. But if we lose to Duke on the road by 20, go 8-8 in conference, then we're a 6 seed, and the 24th best team in the country. We go from unranked to ranked in the top 25 by losing on the road to Duke. In November. Let's say we beat Duke in November on the road. When we go 8-8 in conference, none of those 8 losses knock us out of the top 25? I don't see "Others Receiving Votes: Dayton (3)" being on the 6 seed line.

And I have literally never once advocated for playing at Duke or at a similar blue blood opponent. I am advocating for home and homes with teams that we have a reasonable chance of defeating.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Indiana loses 12 of 13 but beats MSU twice and almost gets in. If we beat two “premier” teams, which we don’t play btw, we could definitely move up. But again, you can’t win if you don’t play them

We likely can not get premier opponents, but the next best option, beating 2 of them, one at home and one away, would IMO certainly, at a minimum, likely move us up at least 2 seed lines. It would depend on how good the opponents were. We will never get there though if we do not try.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by ud2 With all due respect, this was a completely nonsensical post. The tables below prove out that the better the seed, the better the chance of advancing. It is very, very clear and easy to understand. This is a total no-brainer concept.

Originally Posted by longtimefan Let's look at our last five NCAA seeds and results: 2009 won as an 11 seed 2014 went to Elite 8 as an 11 seed 2015 won as an 11 seed 2016 lost as a 7 seed 2017 lost as a 7 seed We also won as a 12 seed in 1990 and lost as a 4 seed in 2003. Seeding can help, but not as much as some people think. Once you get in the tournament it's all about match ups. I would rather have a scheduling philosophy geared to getting us into the tournament than a higher risk philosophy that might get us a better seed but could also cost us a bid altogether. Once you're in, anything can happen.

See above real life examples.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by TX Flyer Indiana loses 12 of 13 but beats MSU twice and almost gets in. If we beat two “premier” teams, which we don’t play btw, we could definitely move up. But again, you can’t win if you don’t play them

We played Virginia, Oklahoma, Mississippi State, and Auburn, and lost to all of them, but we need to play better teams? If we had beaten 2 of those 4, and maybe Tulsa, we probably make the dance. A win over VCU would have helped too. We played plenty of good teams last season (as we do most seasons), we just didn't beat enough of them.

[frisco flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 2 games not 1...I have said that countless times. 2 more good wins could definitely move you up 16 spots in the rankings, I have already posted the math on that multiple times, the math is indisputable. Not only that, but you are dropping 2 clunker games, which also improves your sos and rpi.

Realistically, in order to get 2 more good wins you will need to schedule 4 more good opponents and hope you win half the games. Expecting a better winning percentage against good teams is just not realistic.

With that said, good luck finding four more good teams willing to schedule us home & home every year.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by ud2 I have acknowledged p5 reluctance countless times, so play the next best willing opponent. There are plenty of good, willing non-p5 opponents.

Give me specific teams. I will ask Neil personally about them.

[Chris R]

Throw out the performance of the Top-5 seeds vs the bottom 5 seeds. Thats 1-5 and 12-16. Those seeds are irrelevant to Dayton because Dayton will never earn one of those seeds -- they arent in a good enough league to earn a Top-5 and not in a bad enough league to earn the lone automatic bid behind all at-large teams seeded 1-11. So those metrics mean nothing.

What matters are metrics 6-11. On average Im sure the higher seeds perform moderately better, but that delta narrows tremendously as you go up the seed line. The 7-10 and 8-9 matchups are basically pickems' so you have to throw those results out as well because they are also statistically irrelevant in determining if the legitimately better team won. In any year half the pundits think the 9 and 10 seeds are better than the 7 and 8 seeds.

So we're only really talking about the #6/#11 game that might have any relevance to what Dayton is doing in the reality that Dayton currently finds itself in. I did not look it up, but Im guessing the #6 seed does NOT beat the #11 seed at a rate commensurate with their seed line vs the #11 seed. In other words the #11 seed tends to outperform the seed line. By how much I dont know.

When you are evaluating the only seed lines Dayton will ever see which is in the 5-11 range, the seed Dayton earns is far less important than the specific team we are matched up against. Under BG, we struggled with teams that played fundamental basketball but matched up well with teams that were athletic. Thats how you beat WVU in the NCAAs and beat athletic but not overly fundamental teams in the NIT. But we got stroked by teams with good fundamentals like Iowa and Charleston in the NIT. Similarly, the Ohio State matchup was a good matchup for us in the NCAA, however the Syracuse matchup was God-awful. We managed to beat Cuse the first time but I believe it was a confluence of having a tremendous execution effort, Cuse not so much. In the next NCAA game, Cuse abused us like rented mules. Wichita did the same thing in the 2nd half at Bankers Life Fieldhouse -- fundamental team that didnt beat themselves, the kind of team we have never matched up well against -- at least under BG and Archie.

I tend to think those patterns still exist, although with the way we can score against almost anybody, Im hopeful if Grant can coach up the defense we can start beating those teams that are matchup nightmares -- the Syrcauses, Wisconsins, Mich States, and Virginias of the world.

Elite guards have been problematic for us because our perimeter defense has been very mediocre the last 10-15 years. Even under Archie. Scoochie was not a very good defender but neither was anyone else save perhaps Kyle and he was overmatched in the Wichita game.

Unless you're name is Duke or Kansas and you're fighting for protected seeds and unofficial home court through the first 3-4 rounds, matchups are what dictate advancing or going home for programs like Dayton, SMC, BYU, Davidson, URI, etc.

BYU needs to play an up-tempo team that also likes to run in order to be successful. If they play a big bruising team that dictates tempo, they are not going to win. Doesnt matter what the seeds are.

Im all for getting UD to a level where the seed line matters more than the matchup. But we're a long way from that. Im not against UD earning the highest seed line possible. But Im paying more attention to whom the opponent is. The matchup with #13 Tulsa was terrible for us. However the matchup with #6 West Virginia and #10 Stanford were wholly favorable.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by longtimefan We played Virginia, Oklahoma, Mississippi State, and Auburn, and lost to all of them, but we need to play better teams? If we had beaten 2 of those 4, and maybe Tulsa, we probably make the dance. A win over VCU would have helped too. We played plenty of good teams last season (as we do most seasons), we just didn't beat enough of them.

There you go, making sense again.

___________________________
Pete: Wait a minute. Who elected you leader of this outfit?
Ulysses Everett McGill: Well Pete, I figured it should be the one with the capacity for abstract thought . . .
O Brother, Where Art Thou?

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 2 games not 1...I have said that countless times. 2 more good wins could definitely move you up 16 spots in the rankings, I have already posted the math on that multiple times, the math is indisputable. Not only that, but you are dropping 2 clunker games, which also improves your sos and rpi.

Yes, 2 more good wins could move you up. You know what else could move you up? Just win the games on your schedule you're supposed to win in conference.

For example, last year we went 13-5 in conference. We generally won the games we were supposed to win in conference but we lost at home to RI and VCU. Win those games and we're 15-3, 23-10 and very well could have been in the NCAA tournament despite no spectacular win on the resume.

But unfortunately we never had the chance to beat any top teams last year because of Neil's weak scheduling mindset.
Except for Butler.
And Virginia.
And Oklahoma.
And Mississippi State.
And Auburn.

You're literally arguing for exactly the schedule we already have and saying Neil is doing it wrong simply because the team is not winning the games we're supposed to win.

Go 15-3 in conference (or better) if you're so da** good instead of relying on lucky wins on the road against tier 1 teams. Or, maybe we haven't been that da** good.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Chris R Elite guards have been problematic for us because our perimeter defense has been very mediocre the last 10-15 years. Even under Archie. Scoochie was not a very good defender but neither was anyone else save perhaps Kyle and he was overmatched in the Wichita game.

Kris Dunn, 4-13? I think you're being a bit harsh on Davis. He was well above mediocre, and that was with highly suspect rim protection.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R Give me specific teams. I will ask Neil personally about them.

New Mexico State
Buffalo
Belmont
Murray State
Utah State
Loyola Chicago
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[TX Flyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan We played Virginia, Oklahoma, Mississippi State, and Auburn, and lost to all of them, but we need to play better teams? If we had beaten 2 of those 4, and maybe Tulsa, we probably make the dance. A win over VCU would have helped too. We played plenty of good teams last season (as we do most seasons), we just didn't beat enough of them.

You keep enjoying the NIT. So we had 4 chances and needed to win 50% to get those 2 wins. Instead of playing with barely better than Vegas odds why not schedule more and increase your odds of winning two? Again...an IU team lost 12 of 13 and were still almost in. But I understand you only care about going to the arena, seeing friends, and leaving at the 8min left media timeout so you can beat traffic.

To everyone saying we can’t get them play a H/H. We don’t need to. Go on the road and don’t expect a return game.

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Kris Dunn, 4-13? I think you're being a bit harsh on Davis. He was well above mediocre, and that was with highly suspect rim protection.

Cohill and Chatman may be our best shot at a pair of guards who can clamp down on the opposition guards. I don't think any really good guard can be shut out a whole game, but perhaps we have the two that can finish a tight game.

[Wallage]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer Cohill and Chatman may be our best shot at a pair of guards who can clamp down on the opposition guards. I don't think any really good guard can be shut out a whole game, but perhaps we have the two that can finish a tight game.

Yeah, if Chatman is as good at D as what we've heard that could be a teriffic combo. Add in Matos and a rim protector and it a heck of a defensive lineup.

[TXFlyerFan]

It's absolutely amazing the hubris displayed by some posters on this board regarding scheduling. I cannot imagine why none of you are Athletic Directors because apparently, it's just a matter of scheduling teams you think should play us, whenever, wherever, without regard to the finances involved. Despite what has been repeatedly relayed regarding the difficulties, apparently it's easier than a Thanos snap to get it done.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan It's absolutely amazing the hubris displayed by some posters on this board regarding scheduling. I cannot imagine why none of you are Athletic Directors because apparently, it's just a matter of scheduling teams you think should play us, whenever, wherever, without regard to the finances involved. Despite what has been repeatedly relayed regarding the difficulties, apparently it's easier than a Thanos snap to get it done.

Strawman, no one has said that
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[UD62]

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan It's absolutely amazing the hubris displayed by some posters on this board regarding scheduling. I cannot imagine why none of you are Athletic Directors because apparently, it's just a matter of scheduling teams you think should play us, whenever, wherever, without regard to the finances involved. Despite what has been repeatedly relayed regarding the difficulties, apparently it's easier than a Thanos snap to get it done.

It's only a small handfull of posters. And given their history,it will continue. Same song different day does get a bit old though.
Thankfully most posters realize the real world situation and understand that we have a capable staff. Past OOC schedules have been effective in the RPI era, no reason to doubt that will remain the case as the landscape of Dance qualification changes.

[OSU Flyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Maybe not THE biggest snub, but certainly in the team-photo of all-time worst snubs. By my count we now have: Indiana State Maui (N) Maui (N) Maui (N) Colorado (N, Chicago) Based on discussions in this thread we probably will also have a mainland Maui opponent which puts us at 6-7 games left to be filled (or announced, rather).

Kansas releasing their schedule confirms a Maui on the mainland game
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[TXFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer Strawman, no one has said that Posted via Mobile Device

This thread is filled with names of schools Neil should just go target, as though he hasn't thought about, reached out, etc. Despite what Chris R has said over and over UD, wants to play teams, they don't want to play us. We had to pay St. Mary's for God's sake. They are exactly the type of team that should want to play UD. Except that all the non P5 are happy to take a loss to a P5 (with a chance to win), but are less sanguine about taking a loss to another non P5, since every loss for them is one more nail in the NCAA coffin.

In the end, I don't really care what seed UD gets, so long as they get in. And they can get in every year if they take care of business. There have been more than sufficient opportunities, but we haven't taken advantage by winning the conference much or the A10 tournament.

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

[TX Flyer]

So you’d be ok with ud leaving for the horizon and getting a 15/16 seed every year?