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01-17-2018, 08:26 PM
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Just when u thought AG could coach and maybe u were wrong, boom
Once again what a freaking joke, that was an absolute embarrassment to the program
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01-17-2018, 08:27 PM
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General of the Air Force
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Welcome Back Fool lol
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01-17-2018, 08:30 PM
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Colonel
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Am I wrong ?
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01-17-2018, 08:31 PM
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Colonel
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01-17-2018, 08:31 PM
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Colonel
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As an alumni tell me u we're not embarrassed with that performance tonight
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01-17-2018, 08:32 PM
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Lieutenant Colonel
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I just don't see a very smart team who plays as hard as they need to. Seems like a bunch of individuals rather than a "true team." My interest in watching UD basketball this season is waning fast which, if you knew how much I love Flyer hoops, is shocking.
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01-17-2018, 08:35 PM
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Did not show even the slightest appearance of wanting to compete. No excuse for that
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01-17-2018, 08:35 PM
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When the ball goes in the basket the coach is great, when it doesn't he's a bum. You give coaches way to much credit when they win and way to much blame when the team loses. This team is a project, VCU didn't change that.
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01-17-2018, 08:35 PM
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General of the Air Force
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Originally Posted by udscott
As an alumni tell me u we're not embarrassed with that performance tonight
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No... If this was at home... Yes
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01-17-2018, 08:37 PM
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Brigadier General
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Originally Posted by udscott
Just when u thought AG could coach and maybe u were wrong, boom
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He forgot how to coach between the VCU game 5 days ago and tonight’s game.
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01-17-2018, 08:38 PM
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We alums have been embarrassed plenty of times down through the years. Even during the previous 4 years we had some head shakers
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01-17-2018, 08:39 PM
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Yes. I agree with the notion that this team and this year is a project
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01-17-2018, 08:42 PM
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Must have some fire in your belly every night. These guys are young so they are not aware of how these moments are brief...and then the season is over
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01-17-2018, 08:48 PM
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a 6'8 200lb wuss who can't jump and likes to play on the perimeter gets 15 rebounds.
countless passes directly into SJU hands.
That's not on the coach. But what measures the coach takes to prevent this from happening again IS on the coach.
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01-17-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott
Am I wrong ?
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Was Archie an embarrassment who couldn't coach when we lost there 79-53 in 2014?
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01-17-2018, 08:53 PM
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Anthony has as many wins at St. Joes as Gregory and Miller.
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01-17-2018, 09:01 PM
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The coach isn't an embarrassment, but the team was. Isn't the first time, won't be the last, but it is embarrassing.
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01-17-2018, 09:01 PM
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General of the Air Force
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When we were #15 in the country a couple years ago we lost by 9 there and it wasn't that close... We NEVER play well there
If that was a middle of the pack team like Mason or GW... Sure... But yes I am upset but tonight at least from me gets a little bit of pass. I guarantee a young team like ours saw the headlines from Friday. They gotta learn from tonight
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01-17-2018, 09:03 PM
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Do not get too fristaratd with Umass and St Joe's losses and do not get too excited witn VCU and St Bonnie's wins. Going to be a roller-coaster year as expected. This board would have fired Archie after 2.5 years, are we really questioning AG's ability after .65 of a sesson?!?!?
Year 3 will be the test for AG.
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01-17-2018, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin
Do not get too fristaratd with Umass and St Joe's losses and do not get too excited witn VCU and St Bonnie's wins. Going to be a roller-coaster year as expected. This board would have fired Archie after 2.5 years, are we really questioning AG's ability after .65 of a sesson?!?!?
Year 3 will be the test for AG.
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Most of the people that were pro-BG after 8 years were ready fire AM after 2.5 years.
This is year 10 for AG as a head coach.
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01-17-2018, 09:09 PM
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Plenty of blame to go around...some on AG...most on the players.
Not managing the game and putting a foot in some asses when things were going sideways in the first half is on coach. Not parking people on the bench for abandoning the post...on coach.
AG isn't responsible for lazy passes, lack of effort, giving up offensive rebounds, not getting an offensive rebounds, lazy feet on D, lack of depth, etc...
You want to know when it is bad...across the board...when walkon's are actually getting minutes that aren't in the last 45 seconds.
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01-17-2018, 09:11 PM
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Colonel
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I came up with a name for our offensive plan...
There's the Princeton offense. Then there's ours; The Chuck!
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01-17-2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Plenty of blame to go around...some on AG...most on the players.
Not managing the game and putting a foot in some asses when things were going sideways in the first half is on coach. Not parking people on the bench for abandoning the post...on coach.
AG isn't responsible for lazy passes, lack of effort, giving up offensive rebounds, not getting an offensive rebounds, lazy feet on D, lack of depth, etc...
You want to know when it is bad...across the board...when walkon's are actually getting minutes that aren't in the last 45 seconds.
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I think Anthony parks players on the bench for lack of effort or initiative. It is just hard to do with such a thin bench.
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01-17-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott
Once again what a freaking joke, that was an absolute embarrassment to the program
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Like I said before, this is what it's going to be like THIS year. Ups, Downs, no tourney bid. It is what it is. I have faith better years lie ahead. Just not this year and I have little anxiety game to game with mid to low expectations.
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01-17-2018, 10:57 PM
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Anthony Grant has a long way to go to match Archie Miller's and Brian Gregory's Hawk Hill futility.
__________________
Hot shooting hides a multitude of sins.
Make everyone else's "one day" your "day one".
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01-17-2018, 11:32 PM
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When the score was tied at 20 should have been the time to get in the players grill! The Flyers were making 3 pointers early and the Hawks were driving to the basket and answering with easy 2 point layups! Instead of racheting up the defense and feeding Cunningham down low every time on offense we continued casting up 3's only they weren't falling and before we knew it the score was 32-20! The Flyers continued to play the same way (the definition of insanity) the remainder of the game. Same result!
Rollo on his ungolden awards says that Cunningham needs to demand the ball! He had 10 points but could have had 20 or 25 had the Flyers made it a priority to make good entry passes instead of just passing the ball around the perimeter.
If AG is telling the players to feed Cunningham and they are not doing it then I can't fault the coach. Gregory and Miller's teams have compiled 8 straight losses at St. Joe's and Grant has one! My guess is the streak ends at 9 because the Flyers will win in Philly in 2020, Grants third year! For the future I choose to be an optimist. This season, not so much!
Last edited by CvilleFlyer; 01-17-2018 at 11:36 PM..
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01-18-2018, 01:55 AM
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General
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It seemed tonight the Flyers answer to chucking up late 3s and gradually getting behind was to chuck up 3s earlier in the shot clock.
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01-18-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Anthony Grant has a long way to go to match Archie Miller's and Brian Gregory's Hawk Hill futility.
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Did Sir Archie ever beat St Joes anywhere? I seem to remember losing to them 3 times in the same year.
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01-18-2018, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer
When the score was tied at 20 should have been the time to get in the players grill! The Flyers were making 3 pointers early and the Hawks were driving to the basket and answering with easy 2 point layups! Instead of racheting up the defense and feeding Cunningham down low every time on offense we continued casting up 3's only they weren't falling and before we knew it the score was 32-20! The Flyers continued to play the same way (the definition of insanity) the remainder of the game. Same result!
Rollo on his ungolden awards says that Cunningham needs to demand the ball! He had 10 points but could have had 20 or 25 had the Flyers made it a priority to make good entry passes instead of just passing the ball around the perimeter.
If AG is telling the players to feed Cunningham and they are not doing it then I can't fault the coach. Gregory and Miller's teams have compiled 8 straight losses at St. Joe's and Grant has one! My guess is the streak ends at 9 because the Flyers will win in Philly in 2020, Grants third year! For the future I choose to be an optimist. This season, not so much!
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Shooting up 38 3's in a game is ON the coach. That is absolutely insane and ridiculous...
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01-18-2018, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by steve
Shooting up 38 3's in a game is ON the coach. That is absolutely insane and ridiculous...
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The problem is that the 3 ball is coached and encouraged.
I stated this last week. When you devote multiple minutes in warmups to shoot 3's...you know it is the plan. When that time includes every player from the starting 1 through 5...to the bench 1 through 5...from the best player to the lowest walk-on...to the waterboy...it is in the plan...be an outside shooter. Even the walkons are hitting 3's...it is because they spend ample time becoming perimeter shooters.
The issue is that the focus is so much on this, that the inside game is abandoned.
Guys aren't going to be put on the bench for shooting 3's. That is evident. They, as STF mentions, they are parked for effort. The bad thing is we are down to walkons as the guys off the bench in order to put on the floor to prove points by sitting the guys that should be on the floor because of a lack of effort.
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01-18-2018, 08:04 AM
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Major General
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Originally Posted by udscott
Once again what a freaking joke, that was an absolute embarrassment to the program
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I would love to be sitting 5 feet behind you watching a UD game with a Newcastle ale. Talk about entertainment...
Wanna hear a bigger joke? Former coach AM talking about how happy he was here building something “special”...
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01-18-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by flyerfever
Yes. I agree with the notion that this team and this year is a project
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Started as a project
May be a project still
But the project timeline is getting shorter and shorter
At some point this project may come crashing down.
Last edited by NJFlyr71; 01-18-2018 at 09:09 AM..
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01-18-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
The problem is that the 3 ball is coached and encouraged.
I stated this last week. When you devote multiple minutes in warmups to shoot 3's...you know it is the plan. When that time includes every player from the starting 1 through 5...to the bench 1 through 5...from the best player to the lowest walk-on...to the waterboy...it is in the plan...be an outside shooter. Even the walkons are hitting 3's...it is because they spend ample time becoming perimeter shooters.
The issue is that the focus is so much on this, that the inside game is abandoned.
Guys aren't going to be put on the bench for shooting 3's. That is evident. They, as STF mentions, they are parked for effort. The bad thing is we are down to walkons as the guys off the bench in order to put on the floor to prove points by sitting the guys that should be on the floor because of a lack of effort.
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These statements are scary to me. Because a certain someone (JOB) had the same approach to the game and we all know how that went down!!!!!!!!!
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01-18-2018, 10:03 AM
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General of the Air Force
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01-18-2018, 10:09 AM
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TWEET!
Illegal. The ball handler put his hand under the ball to make that move...double dribble!
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I shaved my balls for this?
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01-18-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by steve
Shooting up 38 3's in a game is ON the coach. That is absolutely insane and ridiculous...
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If Cunningham had demanded the ball we wouldn't have casted up 38 3's! The reason that we have lost 9 straight games at Hawk Hill is that Phil Martelli is a good coach and he devises good game plans. He mixes man to man and zones, takes away the inside game and dares the Flyers to shoot from the outside. The Hawks even won in Philadelphia two seasons ago when we were just one year removed from an elite 8 run!
The maturity was there, Archie was the beloved coach and we still lost. I believe we had a 9 game winning streak so we were ripe for an upset! The problem with this years team is that maturity is nonexistent. We had two great victories over St. Bonny and VCU to grow from and learn from the effort shown but lack of maturity is what causes the Flyers to take a step backwards. Who knows what goes through the minds of 18 to 22 year olds? We even have a 23 year old freshman who was the second-leading scorer in the FIBA U20 European Championships who shot over 50% on 3 pointers for his first place team in the Czech Republic who hasn't shown maturity! He seems to lack confidence and relates to AG the same way that John Crosby related to AM last season. Both seemed to be so worried about making a mistake and relegated to the bench that it only led to more mistakes and turnovers!
I don't know the answer but players who don't listen and shoot the 3 ball early in the shot clock, fail to get the ball inside and show lack of effort should sit the bench even if it is at the expense of playing walkons earlier in the game.
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01-18-2018, 11:29 AM
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The problem this year is that we do not have much of a bench. So we can sit guys for taking early threes and play walk-ons, like we did last night, but that is not a great solution.
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01-18-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72
The problem this year is that we do not have much of a bench. So we can sit guys for taking early threes and play walk-ons, like we did last night, but that is not a great solution.
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Simply an attention getter for the future. Play with effort first...all else is second. Guys are getting parked for bonehead plays and effort, not for jacking up 3's.
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01-18-2018, 12:35 PM
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I Am A Statistical God
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Did Sir Archie ever beat St Joes anywhere? I seem to remember losing to them 3 times in the same year.
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Yes. 3-1 home, 0-3 away, 0-2 neutral, 3-6 overall.
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01-18-2018, 12:44 PM
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I Am A Statistical God
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I was really hoping that I could provide a "this is how it's always been" situation with the 3 pt vs 2pt percentage debate.
But, I can't.
Since the 2000-01 season, last nights game against Saint Josephs is #1 in percentage of FG shots that were 3ptrs, at 61.3%. #2 was the game against Old Dominion this year, when we shot 61.1% of the field goals from long range.
Oh, and #4 is the Georgia State game at 60.4%.
Oh, and the Mississippi State game is 54.3% at #17.
So, 4 of 18 games so far this year, are in the top 20 of the last 582 games in percentage of field goal shots that were 3ptrs.
So, how about for the year? We are at 46.5% of field goals being three pointers, 458/985. That's #1 in the last 18 seasons, with the 2011-12 season in second place. At 40.3%.
Stats provided by Figstats
Last edited by Figgie123; 01-18-2018 at 01:39 PM..
Reason: spelling
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01-18-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
I was really hoping that I could provide a "this is how it's always been" situation with the 3 pt vs 2pt percentage debate.
But, I can't.
Since the 2000-01 season, last nights game against Saint Josephs is #1 in percentage of FG shows that were 3ptrs, at 61.3%. #2 was the game against Old Dominion this year, when we shot 61.1% of the field goals from long range.
Oh, and #4 is the Georgia State game at 60.4%.
Oh, and the Mississippi State game is 54.3% at #17.
So, 4 of 18 games so far this year, are in the top 20 of the last 582 games in percentage of field goal shots that were 3ptrs.
So, how about for the year? We are at 46.5% of field goals being three pointers, 458/985. That's #1 in the last 18 seasons, with the 2011-12 season in second place. At 40.3%.
Stats provided by Figstats
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Barf!
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01-18-2018, 12:52 PM
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General
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Plenty of blame to go around...some on AG...most on the players.
Not managing the game and putting a foot in some asses when things were going sideways in the first half is on coach. Not parking people on the bench for abandoning the post...on coach.
AG isn't responsible for lazy passes, lack of effort, giving up offensive rebounds, not getting an offensive rebounds, lazy feet on D, lack of depth, etc...
You want to know when it is bad...across the board...when walkon's are actually getting minutes that aren't in the last 45 seconds.
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I am glad someone else is complaining about "lazy passes." In fact, I think the game turned sour on the Flyers when I believe the score was 12-12. It was either Cunningham or Landers who collected a defensive rebound...and then through one of those horrible lazy passes to a SJ player for a layup. I do believe that single play turned the game against the Flyers. In fact, X had another one..very costly, on a break and he tried to throw a 30 foot one-hand pass. These two were very costly plays at a time when the game was still close.
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01-18-2018, 01:02 PM
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Looking at our NCAA offensive ranks certainly paints a picture as well.
Field Goal Attempts- #301 (54.7/gm)
2 Pt Attempts- #340 (29.3/gm)
3 Pt Attempts- #48 (25.4/gm)
Field Goal Percentage- #46 (47.4%)
2 Pt%- #6 (58.6%)
3 Pt%- #188 (34.5%)
Were also #281 at free throw attempts per game at 17.2/gm.
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01-18-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72
The problem this year is that we do not have much of a bench. So we can sit guys for taking early threes and play walk-ons, like we did last night, but that is not a great solution.
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Not a great solution if the main objective is to win each game but what else can you do? It is up to Anthony Grant to solve the problem! I sympathize with him because lack of effort can make a coach pull his hair out. Todays DDN has an article by David Jablonski where AG said on his WHIO radio show that Dayton can be a 'destination spot' for some of the nations top players! He better hope so and put all his efforts to that regard because we need as many as possible at every position! I'll settle for guys that have a passion for what they do for the good of the team regardless of the number of stars before their name.
Last edited by CvilleFlyer; 01-18-2018 at 01:36 PM..
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01-18-2018, 01:38 PM
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I Am A Statistical God
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
So, how about for the year? We are at 46.5% of field goals being three pointers, 458/985. That's #1 in the last 18 seasons, with the 2011-12 season in second place. At 40.3%.
Stats provided by Figstats
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I realized I can do this one better.
In the 32 years (since 86-87 season) of 3pt shooting, this year is #1 at 46.5%. #2 is the 92-93 season where 43.4% of field goal attempts were beyond the 3pt line. 93-94 season came in #3 with 41.9%.
The lowest 3 seasons were the first three seasons, 13.0%, 12.5%, and 15.6%, respectively from 86-87 thru 88-89.
Stats provided by Figstats
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01-18-2018, 02:17 PM
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The problem is not the number but how they get to them. Inside to outside has to be how they come unless you get them in transition.
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01-18-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer
If Cunningham had demanded the ball we wouldn't have casted up 38 3's! The reason that we have lost 9 straight games at Hawk Hill is that Phil Martelli is a good coach and he devises good game plans. He mixes man to man and zones, takes away the inside game and dares the Flyers to shoot from the outside. The Hawks even won in Philadelphia two seasons ago when we were just one year removed from an elite 8 run!
The maturity was there, Archie was the beloved coach and we still lost. I believe we had a 9 game winning streak so we were ripe for an upset! The problem with this years team is that maturity is nonexistent. We had two great victories over St. Bonny and VCU to grow from and learn from the effort shown but lack of maturity is what causes the Flyers to take a step backwards. Who knows what goes through the minds of 18 to 22 year olds? We even have a 23 year old freshman who was the second-leading scorer in the FIBA U20 European Championships who shot over 50% on 3 pointers for his first place team in the Czech Republic who hasn't shown maturity! He seems to lack confidence and relates to AG the same way that John Crosby related to AM last season. Both seemed to be so worried about making a mistake and relegated to the bench that it only led to more mistakes and turnovers!
I don't know the answer but players who don't listen and shoot the 3 ball early in the shot clock, fail to get the ball inside and show lack of effort should sit the bench even if it is at the expense of playing walkons earlier in the game.
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You're blaming Cunningham in one respect and then blaming other players for not getting the ball into him. Which is it? One, both? This isn't playground ball where Cunningham has to get a kid on his hip, scream for 3 seconds, and hope he gets the ball. Things have to happen much quicker with real intent.
I tend to believe there are lots of factors here. Crosby was not available and he's the ONLY guy that can at least get between defenders and penetrate and get to the rim. Defenses have to be split by good penetration sometimes. Crutcher nor DD are those players.....
Bottom line is IDC who is playing, coaching, etc. a team should NOT be casting almost 40 3 point shots and if they are they better have at least a couple Jon Dieblers on the team...
Last edited by steve; 01-18-2018 at 02:34 PM..
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01-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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The VCU and SJU games are a great example of process vs results. If you were over your skis about the offense after VCU and calling out Grant as incapable offensive coach after SJU then you weren't paying attention. Dayton followed the exact same process in both games albeit with startlingly different results.
DEFENSE
Flyers "hold" their opponent to 79 & 81 points respectively allowing them to shoot 48% and 49% from the floor. Both opponents went to the line more and made more FT than Dayton.
OFFENSE
Flyers take exactly 62 shots in both games
Flyers make 11/14 FT vs VCU and 6/11 vs STJ (a paltry number of FTA in both games)
Flyers make 17/32 3FGA vs VCU, make 13/38 vs STJ (over 50% of FGA are behind the arc)
Flyers make 22/30 2FGA vs VCU and 10/24 vs STJ
This team is what it is right now. If they want to win they'll feed the post until Josh and Kostas are yanking on their shorts begging to come out. They need to get out in transition which means pushing on makes and playing stout enough defenses to create some contested misses.
Anyone giving out a grade to Grant that's anything but a big, fat INC is not realistic. From what I've seen, Grant's entire offense is predicated on having triple-threat wings, of which Dayton right now has zero.
I'm not happy with the amount of triples this team puts up. Maybe Grant's looking at this roster thinking to himself "Half of you guys aren't going to make it past next season and I'm filling the pipeline with triple threat wings, at which point I'm going to need to shooters with an understanding of my O/D principles." Maybe he preaches post-feeds from first to last whistle at practice, but this isn't Hickory High and he's not playing with 4 or running out all the walkons.
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01-18-2018, 03:16 PM
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Shooting a lot 3's is not necessarily a terrible formula. But right now his players have little to no situational awareness.
1. XW takes a secondary break reversal pass and jacks a 3 no more than 5 seconds into the shot clock with a guy right in front of him.
2. Guys shooting 3's while post players are ready to receive the ball.
3. 26' shots. Acceptable with <2 seconds on the shot clock, not really necessary with 20+ seconds on the clock. I'm looking at you DD.
4. Heat checks. Someone hits 2 in a row and seems to think they should shoot until they miss.
5. And my favorite, no attempt to probe the defense. BALANCE. Drive aggressively and kick out. Throw it to the post. It's got to go inside / outside.
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01-18-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Whacker
The VCU and SJU games are a great example of process vs results. If you were over your skis about the offense after VCU and calling out Grant as incapable offensive coach after SJU then you weren't paying attention. Dayton followed the exact same process in both games albeit with startlingly different results.
DEFENSE
Flyers "hold" their opponent to 79 & 81 points respectively allowing them to shoot 48% and 49% from the floor. Both opponents went to the line more and made more FT than Dayton.
OFFENSE
Flyers take exactly 62 shots in both games
Flyers make 11/14 FT vs VCU and 6/11 vs STJ (a paltry number of FTA in both games)
Flyers make 17/32 3FGA vs VCU, make 13/38 vs STJ (over 50% of FGA are behind the arc)
Flyers make 22/30 2FGA vs VCU and 10/24 vs STJ
This team is what it is right now. If they want to win they'll feed the post until Josh and Kostas are yanking on their shorts begging to come out. They need to get out in transition which means pushing on makes and playing stout enough defenses to create some contested misses.
Anyone giving out a grade to Grant that's anything but a big, fat INC is not realistic. From what I've seen, Grant's entire offense is predicated on having triple-threat wings, of which Dayton right now has zero.
I'm not happy with the amount of triples this team puts up. Maybe Grant's looking at this roster thinking to himself "Half of you guys aren't going to make it past next season and I'm filling the pipeline with triple threat wings, at which point I'm going to need to shooters with an understanding of my O/D principles." Maybe he preaches post-feeds from first to last whistle at practice, but this isn't Hickory High and he's not playing with 4 or running out all the walkons.
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Both the VCU and St. Joes games just further illustrate the point I made early in the year and have made multiple times since.
Simply replace Akron with VCU and Auburn with St. Joes.
Originally Posted by bcross
In the first 12 minutes of the second half of the Akron game we attempted 10 3's and only 5 2-point attempts, with 4 of the 5 attempts being from 15+ feet. The floor opened up and we then got the looks around the basket. Instead of working it inside-out, we did it in reverse. That may work one game, but it really isn't a sustainable strategy. Need to work it inside either by posting up or dribble penetration. The kick-out pass to 3 pt shooter leads to higher percentage shot.
Against Auburn, lot of perimeter passing and settling for jumpers. This time we didn't hit shots. When you aren't hitting from the perimeter, the defense compacts making it that much harder to establish anything on the inside.
While it may not be fair to Coach Grant at this point, the thing that immediately concerns me is that we are falling into the same pattern Gregory coached teams fell into.
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01-18-2018, 03:29 PM
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Coach Grant gets a pass from me this season, maybe next. Period. I think any other position is unreasonable and emotional.
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01-18-2018, 03:42 PM
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The offense is NOT the primary problem, it is a red herring. DEFENSE is the primary problem.
Offensive points per 100 possesions
2018 = 108.5 (#90 in the country)
2017 = 111.9 (#53 in the country)
2016 = 106.6 (#143 in the country)
2015 = 109.2 (#75 in the country)
Defense points per 100 possessions
2018 = 105.0 (#191 in the country)
2017 = 96.3 (#43 in the country)
2016 = 94.0 (#16 in the country)
2015 = 95.9 (#30 in the country)
This is the worst defense in the last 17 years. Other bad ones were 2012 giving up 102.5 (#160), 2013 = 101.4 (#145) 2003 = 101.9 (#161), and 2007 = 100.7 (#98). 2018 plus the 4 years above are the only times in the last 17 years Dayton has given up 100+ points per 100 possessions.
Yes, offense is higher variance jacking so many threes and has flaws, but DEFENSE is the major problem. Offense is a red herring.
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01-18-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
I realized I can do this one better.
In the 32 years (since 86-87 season) of 3pt shooting, this year is #1 at 46.5%. #2 is the 92-93 season where 43.4% of field goal attempts were beyond the 3pt line. 93-94 season came in #3 with 41.9%.
The lowest 3 seasons were the first three seasons, 13.0%, 12.5%, and 15.6%, respectively from 86-87 thru 88-89.
Stats provided by Figstats
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And can anyone guess WHO was coach during those #2 & #3 teams? HUMMM?
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01-18-2018, 03:57 PM
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I am not sure it isn't the way to go(look at the NBA). In the paint or threes. The Flyers need to go inside first, then outside.
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01-18-2018, 04:03 PM
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when you turn the ball over at the rate the Flyers have this season it makes the offense a problem and creates all kinds of problems for the defense
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01-18-2018, 09:34 PM
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current pomeroy ranks for ud
offense 86 defense 191
until the defense is fixed this team is going nowhere
We harp on offense all season long and ignore the real problem
Either experience and/or a wholesale roster change may be needed.
Last year had kyle and charles cooke to anchor the defense.
This year nobody
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01-18-2018, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin
The offense is NOT the primary problem, it is a red herring. DEFENSE is the primary problem.
Offensive points per 100 possesions
2018 = 108.5 (#90 in the country)
2017 = 111.9 (#53 in the country)
2016 = 106.6 (#143 in the country)
2015 = 109.2 (#75 in the country)
Defense points per 100 possessions
2018 = 105.0 (#191 in the country)
2017 = 96.3 (#43 in the country)
2016 = 94.0 (#16 in the country)
2015 = 95.9 (#30 in the country)
This is the worst defense in the last 17 years. Other bad ones were 2012 giving up 102.5 (#160), 2013 = 101.4 (#145) 2003 = 101.9 (#161), and 2007 = 100.7 (#98). 2018 plus the 4 years above are the only times in the last 17 years Dayton has given up 100+ points per 100 possessions.
Yes, offense is higher variance jacking so many threes and has flaws, but DEFENSE is the major problem. Offense is a red herring.
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We have a winner.
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01-18-2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Whacker
The VCU and SJU games are a great example of process vs results. If you were over your skis about the offense after VCU and calling out Grant as incapable offensive coach after SJU then you weren't paying attention. Dayton followed the exact same process in both games albeit with startlingly different results.
DEFENSE
Flyers "hold" their opponent to 79 & 81 points respectively allowing them to shoot 48% and 49% from the floor. Both opponents went to the line more and made more FT than Dayton.
OFFENSE
Flyers take exactly 62 shots in both games
Flyers make 11/14 FT vs VCU and 6/11 vs STJ (a paltry number of FTA in both games)
Flyers make 17/32 3FGA vs VCU, make 13/38 vs STJ (over 50% of FGA are behind the arc)
Flyers make 22/30 2FGA vs VCU and 10/24 vs STJ
This team is what it is right now. If they want to win they'll feed the post until Josh and Kostas are yanking on their shorts begging to come out. They need to get out in transition which means pushing on makes and playing stout enough defenses to create some contested misses.
Anyone giving out a grade to Grant that's anything but a big, fat INC is not realistic. From what I've seen, Grant's entire offense is predicated on having triple-threat wings, of which Dayton right now has zero.
I'm not happy with the amount of triples this team puts up. Maybe Grant's looking at this roster thinking to himself "Half of you guys aren't going to make it past next season and I'm filling the pipeline with triple threat wings, at which point I'm going to need to shooters with an understanding of my O/D principles." Maybe he preaches post-feeds from first to last whistle at practice, but this isn't Hickory High and he's not playing with 4 or running out all the walkons.
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Good analysis, and of course, he doesn't have Jimmy Chitwood!
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01-19-2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob
Coach Grant gets a pass from me this season, maybe next. Period. I think any other position is unreasonable and emotional.
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HE gets a pass but the offensive inefficiency when not hitting at an unreal clip from the perimeter doesn't.
Here is the issue...How does one realistically think that UD can/will get shooters that can hit, at the clip necessary for 25 to 30 win seasons, to fill a roster? It isn't going to happen. This isn't some NBA prospect factory that can get guys in here that are pro material to fill a starting 5. The best teams in the country typically are well rounded and not full of streaky shooters.
The system isn't getting it done this year because of personnel...unfortunately in the future I think the system doesn't work because it doesn't fit the level of mid major talent that AG can recruit. Nothing against some of the greats that have walked through the doors, but this isn't UK, Duke, Kansas, or UNC.
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01-19-2018, 08:17 AM
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One particular set of stats may indicate there's nothing wrong with the offense but I guess I'll trust my lying eyes
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01-19-2018, 08:20 AM
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No one has mentioned the fact that we are having difficulty getting the ball inside to a midget. supposedly 6'7", which is probably 1 to 2 inches off his real height.
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01-19-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeFlyer
No one has mentioned the fact that we are having difficulty getting the ball inside to a midget. supposedly 6'7", which is probably 1 to 2 inches off his real height.
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We're having problems feeding the post because most times we aren't even attempting to do it.
If the post player has good post position sealing his man off, height is really irrelevant. Pollard/Pierre were shorter and we had more success getting it to them in the post. Cooke/Sibert would post up on occasion when we inverted the offense. It's not about height.
It's not that often that UD is going to have the type of post player the checks all the boxes for height, strength, and skill set. Most only check 2 of 3. Cunningham has the strength and skill set. We need to figure it out.
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01-19-2018, 10:16 AM
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Our offense is good enough to be a Top25 team, if our defense was equally as good and our rebounding equally as good. Offense is sexier, but you better have some defense, when the shots are not falling, and likewise some rebounding. We can hope for better offense, but balance wins multiple games. We can get there because much of defense and rebounding is about effort and technique, which right now we have little.
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01-19-2018, 10:29 AM
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The defense definitely needs to get a lot better. I'm not sure a top 10 defense in America would make this a top 25 with the rate of turnovers
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01-19-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
The defense definitely needs to get a lot better. I'm not sure a top 10 defense in America would make this a top 25 with the rate of turnovers
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Amen, that would help. We are #193 in turnovers with 13.6 a game. But then again, that is offense. Oklahoma is right in front of us with 13.5.
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01-19-2018, 11:12 AM
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Having a talent like Trae Young can cover up a lot
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01-19-2018, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72
Our offense is good enough to be a Top25 team, if our defense was equally as good and our rebounding equally as good. Offense is sexier, but you better have some defense, when the shots are not falling, and likewise some rebounding. We can hope for better offense, but balance wins multiple games. We can get there because much of defense and rebounding is about effort and technique, which right now we have little.
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You don't pair the #87 offense (Current KenPom) with an equally good #87 defense and think your going to be top 25. That sounds more like a borderline NIT team.
There's issues with the offense and the defense. Both need major improvement if this program is going to reach the next level. There's just a lot less to discuss with defense.
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01-19-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Here is the issue...How does one realistically think that UD can/will get shooters that can hit, at the clip necessary for 25 to 30 win seasons, to fill a roster? It isn't going to happen. This isn't some NBA prospect factory that can get guys in here that are pro material to fill a starting 5. The best teams in the country typically are well rounded and not full of streaky shooters.
The system isn't getting it done this year because of personnel...unfortunately in the future I think the system doesn't work because it doesn't fit the level of mid major talent that AG can recruit. Nothing against some of the greats that have walked through the doors, but this isn't UK, Duke, Kansas, or UNC.
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Does having 51% of our total game minutes played by freshmen and a sophomore with no playing experience have anything to do with our defensive intensity?
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01-19-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72
Amen, that would help. We are #193 in turnovers with 13.6 a game. But then again, that is offense. Oklahoma is right in front of us with 13.5.
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#1 team in fewest turnovers is Davidson. The A10 has 3 of the top 8, with St Joe's and RI. In reality turnovers per game probably have a poor correlation to offensive success or wins and losses.
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01-19-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
I am not sure it isn't the way to go(look at the NBA). In the paint or threes. The Flyers need to go inside first, then outside.
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End of Story. Scoochie and Sibert and and Pierre all did this so well. Esp year 2 and 3
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01-19-2018, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Does having 51% of our total game minutes played by freshmen and a sophomore with no playing experience have anything to do with our defensive intensity?
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True Gazoo - that's a biggie no doubt.
Plus we have NO Stopper. Ala Kyle or Pollard or a real big.
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01-19-2018, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
Having a talent like Trae Young can cover up a lot
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Went to the OU / TCU game. Without Trae Young, OU may not be a 0.500 team.
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