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  #1  
Old 08-10-2020, 08:18 PM
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Name. Image. Likeness. (NIL)

Here is what Indiana is doing to assist athletes in getting ready for this new opportunity coming in 2021.

https://iuhoosiers.com/news/2020/8/5...s-for-nil.aspx

I think this move will be a recruiting advantage so I’d expect more schools to build programs to help athletes maximize their branding opportunities. Let the games begin.
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Here is what Indiana is doing to assist athletes in getting ready for this new opportunity coming in 2021.

https://iuhoosiers.com/news/2020/8/5...s-for-nil.aspx

I think this move will be a recruiting advantage so Iíd expect more schools to build programs to help athletes maximize their branding opportunities. Let the games begin.
Sounds like 1. - that report was written by Opendorse, 2. - the owners of Opendorse will make a lot of money - the "student athletes," not so much. Revenue generated by "student athletes" should be used to repay the institution for their scholarship first. Once that has been repaid, the rest belongs to the "student athlete" - oh and don't forget to pay your taxes.
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Sounds like 1. - that report was written by Opendorse, 2. - the owners of Opendorse will make a lot of money - the "student athletes," not so much. Revenue generated by "student athletes" should be used to repay the institution for their scholarship first. Once that has been repaid, the rest belongs to the "student athlete" - oh and don't forget to pay your taxes.
So the better players who generally will make more money pay back their scholarships but those who donít make much or any money donít?
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:17 AM
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So, they're indentured servants. Yeah, that's going to survive cancel culture.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Sounds like 1. - that report was written by Opendorse, 2. - the owners of Opendorse will make a lot of money - the "student athletes," not so much. Revenue generated by "student athletes" should be used to repay the institution for their scholarship first. Once that has been repaid, the rest belongs to the "student athlete" - oh and don't forget to pay your taxes.
Let's say a student is at UD on scholarship because they are a world class musical talent. They write a best selling album while they are in school. Should they also have to repay their scholarship because they used the associated talent and branding opportunities to make money while on scholarship? I would venture to say no, that's ridiculous.
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2020, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post
Let's say a student is at UD on scholarship because they are a world class musical talent. They write a best selling album while they are in school. Should they also have to repay their scholarship because they used the associated talent and branding opportunities to make money while on scholarship? I would venture to say no, that's ridiculous.
The drummer when I played in the Jazz band at UD left school to tour with Stan Kenton. I don't remember anyone thinking he owed UD anything.
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  #7  
Old 08-16-2020, 12:11 AM
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Did they write the piece on their free time or UDs time?
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Old 08-16-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R
Revenue generated by "student athletes" should be used to repay the institution for their scholarship first. Once that has been repaid, the rest belongs to the "student athlete" - oh and don't forget to pay your taxes.
And once the scholarship is paid, they are even so the University (without proper compensation) couldn't, for example, use highlights of Obi or promote that the 2020 lottery pick played at UD
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2020, 09:09 AM
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If you follow MBB twitter, youíve seen the player of the day postings. They post if you arenít following a certain playerís social media you should. This will help the playerís marketing. Think how the Kardashianís make money -by being social media influencers. If the guys have a lot of followers, companies will hire them to post about their products. So join each player if you can. Iím pretty sure how much players can expect to make while in college will impact recruiting.

It is what it is, so as fans this is one way we can help.
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  #10  
Old 01-28-2022, 05:12 PM
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Are any UD players doing local commercials yet on TV or Radio?

Does anyone appear on any advertising in the arena?
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  #11  
Old 01-28-2022, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Are any UD players doing local commercials yet on TV or Radio?

Does anyone appear on any advertising in the arena?
Doesn't DaRon Holmes have a deal with Lee's?
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  #12  
Old 01-28-2022, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
Doesn't DaRon Holmes have a deal with Lee's?
Yes Daron signed an endorsement deal with Lees
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  #13  
Old 01-28-2022, 09:56 PM
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I saw a Lee's billboard ad with DaRon on the way home from the Arena tonight. The video board on northbound I75 between Edwin C Moses and US35.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:13 AM
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Just in case some missed the article.

ďEarlier this month, he signed a season-long Name, Image and Likeness contract with Far Hills Development LLC, which owns and operates 13 Leeís Famous Recipe Chicken restaurants and a few other food entities in the Miami Valley.Ē

https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...PKWXXKCYPRD7I/
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2022, 09:53 AM
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https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...mpaign_3685523

“One of our values is teamwork,” Niehaus said, “and he’s the embodiment of a team player. He’s super funny and fun to be around. Our brand is light-hearted and positive. It just felt right. Watching him play, he brings energy. The UD basketball team just has some of the most solid guys you’ll meet, and Malachi is just a great person.”
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Old 02-20-2022, 01:12 PM
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Daron is making an appearance at Lee's (Far Hills and Whipp) today from 4-5.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZsb_lJr..._web_copy_link
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Old 04-14-2022, 01:21 PM
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/college...ts-11649928654

Since most NIL deals are 1099 taxes are a new headache for college athletes
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Old 04-14-2022, 03:11 PM
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I noticed a number of our players thanking H&R Block for helping them with their taxes. (on twitter)
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Old 04-14-2022, 05:03 PM
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Going rate for a Pac-12 Conference quarterback hits $90,000.

-- WSU's "Cougar Collective" invests in Cameron Ward

https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzan...12-quarterback

Wonder if this going rate becomes common
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Old 04-14-2022, 06:02 PM
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I hope our local companies are taking care of our boys.
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Old 04-14-2022, 06:05 PM
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Itís too bad that they canít do NIL pay/benefits in lieu of athletic scholarship. An NIL player would count against the number of scholarships. It could be an election that has to be made by a certain date each year. I think I could handle that better. At least at first blush, itís less offensive.
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Old 04-19-2022, 07:00 PM
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If you are going to jump in the NIL pool, you might as well jump in the deep end . . . .

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lit...c6b3304e118322
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Old 04-19-2022, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
It’s too bad that they can’t do NIL pay/benefits in lieu of athletic scholarship. An NIL player would count against the number of scholarships. It could be an election that has to be made by a certain date each year. I think I could handle that better. At least at first blush, it’s less offensive.
Wait. What did I miss? When did any part of this become offensive? Which parts? To whom?

I know it's a rapidly instituted program that will have to be tweaked before it's air-tight.... but offensive? That's a new one.
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Old 04-19-2022, 08:18 PM
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Really? Have you looked at responses? Have you listened to the complaints? I think many find the changes offensive.
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Old 04-19-2022, 10:35 PM
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Like I said, I remember seeing worries about the ol' Unintended Consequences of something so rushed and un-thought-out, and concerns that this will turn into just another way of Power 5 schools trouncing the mid-majors.... but literally nothing that rose to the level of "offensive to the sensibilities."

Help me out.
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Old 04-19-2022, 10:47 PM
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I specifically said less offensive. People have clearly taken offense by the changes allowing for NIL agreements. If you donít see any offense taken, fine. As to my suggestion, I think it would be an interesting approach. But, if you want to dive into a deep discussion of what is and is not offensive, I suppose you should throw on your Speedo.
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Old 04-19-2022, 11:36 PM
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Opening up my question to the floor, since I'd genuinely like to learn.

Who is actually offended (not just concerned about unintended consequences once Power 5 schools find the loopholes)? About what? NIL strikes me as the definition of "inoffensive" (intended a gesture more than a real change)....
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Old 04-19-2022, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Scaia View Post
Opening up my question to the floor, since I'd genuinely like to learn.

Who is actually offended (not just concerned about unintended consequences once Power 5 schools find the loopholes)? About what? NIL strikes me as the definition of "inoffensive" (intended a gesture more than a real change)....
I'll bite. I'm not sure how anyone can be offended by what is occurring so maybe I can be educated too.

I am frustrated or disappointed to the point that I will stop watching College sports (BB is really only one I watch already) if/when it turns into the minor league for the pros.

If the P5 split off from the rest of the NCAA and creates their own March Madness I won't watch it.

None of that has anything to do with being offended.
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Old 04-20-2022, 07:51 AM
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Loosen up your corsets. Your definition of offensive is too strict and limiting. It comes as no small surprise that there would be open disagreement about something so inane, but itís nice to hope otherwise.
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Old 04-20-2022, 09:08 AM
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Not sure about the adjective "offensive", but I am one who thinks the NIL is bad for college sports and for the smaller schools, and will lead to more cheating. I cannot see how this combined with the new transfer rule is positive for college sports or the fans.
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Old 04-20-2022, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Loosen up your corsets. Your definition of offensive is too strict and limiting. It comes as no small surprise that there would be open disagreement about something so inane, but it’s nice to hope otherwise.
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Maybe stop the hyperbole? Offensive is a strong word when used as an adjective.

Just because snowflakes use it today when they drive to Starbucks at 2 am and are offended that they aren't open for them doesn't mean we have to change the definition of the word.

I agree with jack in that it might be bad for college sports but will add the qualifier of 'as I think athletics should be'.

Many people have wanted the kids to be able to be compensated much more for their part in the billions of dollars the adults are making off of their skills. They also don't agree with the limiting controls (requirements to transfer) placed on the athletes that almost no-one else has on them in their lot in life including the coaches that recruited them who can leave whenever they want.

If either group could feel offended with the situation before or now, I think it would be those who feel for the controlled/affected athletes not those who think guys like Greer are traitors or the ones creating the problems
in big time college sports.

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Old 04-20-2022, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Loosen up your corsets. Your definition of offensive is too strict and limiting.

Disgusting. Repulsive. You know, "offensive." It would be nice if people were less pedantic about the exact word choice and focused on the concept of the argument being made here.

It's "disgusting" to me that college sports has become a professional athletics arms race where there is a fully open competition for the greatest talent by escalating salaries. I'm a capitalist all the way, 100%, with one exception: sports. I think the concept of sports competition is greatest served as entertainment when the playing field is as level as possible; for example, salary caps (and floors). When it comes to college sports, I'm not long for this form of entertainment if this is the direction it's going.
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Old 04-20-2022, 09:51 AM
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This is a ****ing message board. If there was ever a place reserved for hyperbole, it is rooms like this.

There are people who still believe in the pre-Dream Team version of amateur athletics. They wonít accept any form of compensation. There are others who believe that the athletes take advantage of the schools. They use a scholarship as a path to personal riches. Iím not in those camps. I have long believed that athletes should be able to market themselves. Thatís nicer in principle than practice. The idea that players should pay back schools if they leave early for the pros has tickled my mind for years. The take the money and run side of things has bothered me. It leads me to the idea of opting out of an athletic scholarship if the player would rather make money through NIL deals. The 3rd string tackle providing needed depth can still receive a scholarship. Itís a risk for the NIL guys, but I thought that I read that the NIL deals are not permitted to turn on performance. I think this could be packaged with 4 year scholarships. This could be an equitable solution that is fair and keeps college sports alive.
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Old 04-20-2022, 09:58 AM
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Comparing to pro sports, players under contract don't get out of their contract when their coach leaves. In college athletics, is there a contract? Does letter of intent carry the weight of a contract? Is it only for a year, or a few months, or. . ? Could a NIL contract with a local sponsor stipulate they must play all of their college games at the local university?
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Old 04-20-2022, 10:07 AM
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My guess is that an NIL can provide that the player must remain local. Itís not about performance but situs in that case.

The scholarship will include a contract that provides the terms and obligations. As a fan of 4 year scholarships, I would want to see an NCAA approved 4 year contract that includes core termination provisions. I would have no problem with a termination provision that allows players an out if the coach leaves.
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Old 04-20-2022, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Many people have wanted the kids to be able to be compensated much more for their part in the billions of dollars the adults are making off of their skills. They also don't agree with the limiting controls (requirements to transfer) placed on the athletes that almost no-one else has on them in their lot in life including the coaches that recruited them who can leave whenever they want.
This is the issue that the NCAA has brought upon itself by burying its head in the sand and hoping this would just go away as the money train kept rolling. What is surprising to me is how upset many are getting about the college entertainment business.
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Old 04-20-2022, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
This is the issue that the NCAA has brought upon itself by burying its head in the sand and hoping this would just go away as the money train kept rolling. What is surprising to me is how upset many are getting about the college entertainment business.
Exactly - I never was offended at a movie simply for it being bad acting or plot line.

I bet 100% of the offended would feel 100% differently if their kid was a 5 star football/basketball player right now. To quote my kids and grandkids - Mic dropped!!
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Old 04-20-2022, 05:12 PM
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NBC is getting involved with NIL deals for Notre Dame

https://adage.com/article/marketing-...e-dame/2412356
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Old 04-21-2022, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Comparing to pro sports, players under contract don't get out of their contract when their coach leaves. In college athletics, is there a contract?
My only comparison to pro sports is that if someone is getting paid (a pro) for a sports skill (sports) then it's pro sports. The comparison stops there.


Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I bet 100% of the offended would feel 100% differently if their kid was a 5 star football/basketball player right now. To quote my kids and grandkids - Mic dropped!!
You might think that, but not everyone is a hypocrite. The NCAA rules are hypocritical, and should have been fixed a long time ago, but that doesn't mean I don't practice what I preach.
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Old 04-21-2022, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
NBC is getting involved with NIL deals for Notre Dame

https://adage.com/article/marketing-...e-dame/2412356
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Since ND has almost exclusive TV rights package with NBC, it only stands to reason (in a self fulfilling financial decision way) that NBC give errr I mean help with 'attracting' well paid errrr I mean great FB talent to consider ND.

The higher ND is ranked, the better for NBC ratings with their TV advertiser's paying more money per air-time.

Kinda like the lather - rinse - repeat cycle. Only using money as the medium!
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Old 04-21-2022, 01:32 PM
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There is an article out there about tOSU

Seems a few folks are getting together and establishing a 'collective' (sounds a little commie meme .... doesn't it Comrade )

They plan on raising a few million dollars to put into this collective and payout to both BB and FB players based on their time working on/in charities if I recollect correctly.

Interesting that they will be able to display the school logo along side the collective logo. Not sure why as I thought that was prohibited. But as in all things, some pretty smart people and a few lawyers (who may or may NOT fit that description ) can find loopholes in almost anything. Just ask BC about it all depends on what 'is', is.

Right now they are looking for donors to fill the pot.

Of course the SEC jumped on this right away (being is how they have undoubtedly been skirting the legal ways for quite sometime). With Texas and OK joining at the right time ... those two places have their own history in the prior conferences they have been involved with.

Years and years ago Texas was caught paying their FB players as they 'worked ' for the Department of Transportation of Texas on road gangs (wink wink wink ) The NCAA came down real hard on SMU for just that reason!!!

You know ... like the Cleveland State penalty!
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Old 04-21-2022, 01:38 PM
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Now if we could only get Elon Musk to establish a 'small collective' for UD Flyers now that a certain donor of UD BB has been a pilot on a Space-X rocket and Dragon spacecraft ....... hmmmmm

Heh! Elon quit that Twitter action and move over to something more worthwhile and grow this into a Flyer-Space-X co-source adventure!
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Old 04-21-2022, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
It’s too bad that they can’t do NIL pay/benefits in lieu of athletic scholarship. An NIL player would count against the number of scholarships. It could be an election that has to be made by a certain date each year. I think I could handle that better. At least at first blush, it’s less offensive.
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Maybe I missed the point of the post but are you suggesting that a kid who is talented enough to get a scholarship AND an NIL deal should use the NIL proceeds to pay back the scholarship, or not take the scholarship?

Why on earth would anyone do that? Unless of course they are a devout Marxist, you know "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

I just don't get the "ruining" college sports take on this. Schools, including our beloved school, have made millions off these kids and their talents for decades. I know they get their education paid for, but so do alot of people who bring in no revenue for the school. People should be paid for work. People who are better at their work than others should be paid more. It is sort of like saying emancipation ruined the cotton industry...GOOD!
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Old 04-21-2022, 04:43 PM
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I havenít mentioned anything about ruing college sports. I brought up the idea as something that seemed interesting to me. College athletic budgets have spiraled out of control. Non-athlete students are paying for the athletes at many schools. Schools donít have the money to fund all the sports, so theyíre sacrificing opportunities for non-revenue generating sports. Title IX is invoked as schools cannot fulfill demand (there are 2 ways to satisfy Title IX; I prefer the approach where opportunities are provided that meet the demand). My idea is certainly not some Marxist inspired attack. I really canít believe that you seriously invoked Marxism. Seriously. Anyway, weíre seeing student athletes being offered high 6 digit (7 digit?) NIL deals. Theyíre making that type of money while a non-athlete student is paying for his scholarship. This is what I would like to be cured.

If this isnít clear enough for you, I can assure you that I believed for yearsÖwell before any of the current discussion beganÖthat athletes should be paid. I can support this idea but also want to see other changes. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 04-21-2022, 05:10 PM
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UD needs to get a collective going. I'm not under the delusion Dayton is ever competing with Kentucky or Texas in a straight money battle

But given the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube someone in the A10 is probably going to try run with hit.

If you're a lowly A10 school that's never gotten any traction I could easily see one of them trying to go all in on NIL. Boosters pay the pay coaches salaries. Pay a coach $200k less and go out and get a couple players with the extra money
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Old 04-21-2022, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Maybe I missed the point of the post but are you suggesting that a kid who is talented enough to get a scholarship AND an NIL deal should use the NIL proceeds to pay back the scholarship, or not take the scholarship?

Why on earth would anyone do that? Unless of course they are a devout Marxist, you know "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

I just don't get the "ruining" college sports take on this. Schools, including our beloved school, have made millions off these kids and their talents for decades. I know they get their education paid for, but so do alot of people who bring in no revenue for the school. People should be paid for work. People who are better at their work than others should be paid more. It is sort of like saying emancipation ruined the cotton industry...GOOD!

The cotton industry is, as stated, an industry. Drivers include low costs, high quality, an optimal number of companies to balance interests.



I'm not sure why people don't get this. Sports is the opposite. Unless you want to be the European premier league soccer, in which case we'll have 6 teams dominate college basketball for the next forever years. Dayton will not be one of those teams.



What makes the NFL so profitable? Every team eventually competes for the crown (except the Browns). Why? Because the system is rigged against the best teams in favor of bringing up the lowest teams. It's socialist. But it raises the profile of the whole sport.



You want the system to be an all out arms race? Well that's capitalism. Go for it. The 6 teams with the most money will win every year. That should be fun to watch. March Madness will be March Final 4 Weekend because the rest won't matter. (I'm only slightly exaggerating.) Players will collect millions to be the 13th player on the Ohio State bench; heck why stop there, pay kids to be on the practice squad. Dayton will be relegated to division III.
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  #47  
Old 04-21-2022, 08:18 PM
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Gazoo you're right about the top wealthy teams attracting talent.

I read somewhere that the leading scorer of the Wright State team ( forgot his name) put his name in the portal almost within days of the championship game and went from WSU straight to tOSU team. Now did he go for playing time? Na! Did he go for being a bigger fish? He already was one of the biggest fish in the Horizon. Did he go for the potential NIL $$$$. Highly likely. What was his NIL potential in the Horizon League and WSU? A few hundred to a thousand vs. Tens of thousands... remember potential in this case. Current transfer and HS recruits are likely seeing promises of $$$ from these collectives and foundations.
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Old 04-21-2022, 08:24 PM
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I canít recallÖhow does this work for non-scholarship NCAA schools?
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Old 04-21-2022, 09:38 PM
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Did I just read big fish and Horizon league in the same sentence? Talk about a stretch to try and make a point. I got a friend who got a chance to move to Beverly Hills but passed it up because he had the nicest trailer in the trailer park.

Shouldnít we at least let the dust from NIL and no sit transfer settle even a little before claiming college basketball is on life support? What is this like the 5th death of college basketball in the past 5-7 years ?
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Old 04-22-2022, 08:31 AM
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Iím curious whether the traditional blue bloods will rule the NIL landscape. Imagine what the deep pockets of Harvard and Boston could do. Great schools, significant alumni groups, and big cities would have the deepest pockets. Of course, an on line presence transcends the schoolís location. Check out this deal that was inked when they were at Fresno State: https://www.espn.com/womens-college-...etball-program. If you support entrepreneurialism, itís easy to like this deal. They are cashing in on their creativity and reach.
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Old 04-22-2022, 09:19 AM
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Well let’s take it in a different direction...5 major car dealerships in town. (Maybe throw in other major businesses.) All paying out NIL dollars in addition to sponsorship funding for their local athletic department. Eventually they all get together and realize they could form a semi pro league with 7 other cities and pay the players but also generate revenues for profit and the kids don’t have to go to class. They will be too busy driving around in that new car they get from their new boss. What’s that going to do to UD basketball? Why would the “business” of 18-23 year olds men’s basketball be any different than any other industry? Money rules. It always has. In this hypothetical case, it would be loss of the best players for college teams, but also loss of the biggest sponsorship revenues for university athletic departments. 5-10 years from now, this isn’t going to be pretty if the cash cows have left the building. I don’t know a lot about Wright State’s athletic department sponsorships, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot less than UD. UD could very well morph into a WSU funded program and WSU might not have athletics at all. Is some of this extreme? Probably. But don’t count it out. Money will rule the day and it will change college sports. It already has. It’s only going to get worse.
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Old 04-22-2022, 09:49 AM
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Isnít the semi-pro option the G League? Attendance and TV revenue are driving factors. Iím not sure that the G League buck is doing much banging. Iím a fan of high level amateur or low level professional play. If anyone wants to see great hockey, go to an OHL game. I prefer Dayton Dragons games to the Reds. Even if the Reds were playing great baseball, I would still enjoy a Dragons game. Football and basketball havenít seen a similar option. I think it would be exciting if the G League and the USFL were able to meaningfully provide young players a spring board to pro success. It would be great if they were a pond for high draft picks. It would work in conjunction with college sports. I know itís not the same level, but it works in hockey. The best players who do not want to play in college go to the OHL (players lose their college eligibility because they receive stipends). The best players who want to play college hockey play in the USHL (the OHL is Canadian major juniors; the USHL is the highest junior play in the States). They co-exist well. College hockey is at a much higher point now than most know. There are now many 1st round picks coming out of colleges. With so many more basketball and football players, they would be able to coexist in the US.

Fwiw, I admit that I have conflicting views on the ways to maintain the college game and development of players. So, please donít bother with pointing out any hypocrisy in anything Iíve posted on this topic. I am taking a real shotgun approach.
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Old 04-22-2022, 12:04 PM
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I'm just not a fan of a system where we pretend that the folks earning the money for the school are being done a favor. You can't decide whether or not to compensate people for their work based on the result you want, (i.e. let's not pay kids or let's regulate it because our team won't benefit). UD has plenty of millionaire alums, if they are worried about falling behind, time to step up. Raise the ticket prices, raise the concession prices. If you are worried, be part of the solution, don't suggest that kids not get paid.

What effect does professors, administrators or athletic directors for that matter, making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year have on non-athlete student costs? Or employee's kids getting tuition waivers, my nephew gets an alumni scholarship because I went to UD, who is paying for that? Where does the endowments stand these days? The non-athletes are paying for the scholarships, that is laughable. That basketball program, and the arena which exists only because of the basketball program, is the biggest revenue producer the school has.
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Old 04-22-2022, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Shouldn’t we at least let the dust from NIL and no sit transfer settle even a little before claiming college basketball is on life support? What is this like the 5th death of college basketball in the past 5-7 years ?
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Thank you for that, Captain Smith. (The captain of the Titanic.) What's that, like, the 5th "so-called" iceberg sighting?? Full speed ahead!

Maybe there are people who are sighting icebergs who think maybe we should go a different direction BEFORE we hit one, not after. Maybe the outcome is somewhat predictable.
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Old 04-22-2022, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Isn’t the semi-pro option the G League? Attendance and TV revenue are driving factors. I’m not sure that the G League buck is doing much banging. I’m a fan of high level amateur or low level professional play. If anyone wants to see great hockey, go to an OHL game. I prefer Dayton Dragons games to the Reds. Even if the Reds were playing great baseball, I would still enjoy a Dragons game. Football and basketball haven’t seen a similar option. I think it would be exciting if the G League and the USFL were able to meaningfully provide young players a spring board to pro success. It would be great if they were a pond for high draft picks. It would work in conjunction with college sports. I know it’s not the same level, but it works in hockey. The best players who do not want to play in college go to the OHL (players lose their college eligibility because they receive stipends). The best players who want to play college hockey play in the USHL (the OHL is Canadian major juniors; the USHL is the highest junior play in the States). They co-exist well. College hockey is at a much higher point now than most know. There are now many 1st round picks coming out of colleges. With so many more basketball and football players, they would be able to coexist in the US.

Fwiw, I admit that I have conflicting views on the ways to maintain the college game and development of players. So, please don’t bother with pointing out any hypocrisy in anything I’ve posted on this topic. I am taking a real shotgun approach.
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Sure, the OHL and USHL etc all co-exist well. As professional sports organizations whose purpose is to develop athletes and provide entertainment it makes perfect sense.



Has anyone stopped to ask what any of this has to do with a college?? Why doesn't every non-profit in the US sponsor a basketball team which competes for an annual trophy? Go American Heart Association of Dayton Flyers!!


The goal is NOT to put the best team on the court. I'm not the slightest bit bothered that the NBDL exists and the best players skip college and go there. Does that make the college basketball experience worse? NOT AT ALL. Because the college basketball experience is about camaraderie, sport, good-natured competition,and frankly tribalism. It does not matter that UD doesn't have the best team on the planet, it only matters that we're better than _avier.



Which brings me back to my point: making colleges into a minor league capitalism driven professional sports organization crushes what it is. I'll go watch an OHL game instead. I like hockey. Yes you can cynically say "it's always been semi-pro sports don't be naive!!" Sure, to a degree. But we're clearly and obviously moving it from a grey area to a black (white?) area. The nuance is gone.

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Old 04-22-2022, 12:53 PM
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Flyers98, non-athletes are paying for scholarship sports at many schools. Nowhere did I say anything about money paid by UD students. Itís more than a few hundred bucks, too. As far as UDís endowment goes, it is smaller than Oberlinís, Denisonís, and Case Westernís. It may have finally surpassed Kentonís. Itís a sobering reality. Regarding your nephewís alumni scholarship, that is likely paid by alumni giving to the scholarship or the endowment. Iím surprised that UD feels that itís necessary. My wifeís family is the oldest legacy at an Ohio school, and we havenít had anything offered to our son. Interesting.

Iíve said elsewhere that I have been a proponent of athletes being able to make money off of their likenesses. I also am a proponent in maintaining the game. There needs to be limits.
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Old 04-22-2022, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I'm just not a fan of a system where we pretend that the folks earning the money for the school are being done a favor. You can't decide whether or not to compensate people for their work based on the result you want, (i.e. let's not pay kids or let's regulate it because our team won't benefit). UD has plenty of millionaire alums, if they are worried about falling behind, time to step up. Raise the ticket prices, raise the concession prices. If you are worried, be part of the solution, don't suggest that kids not get paid.

What effect does professors, administrators or athletic directors for that matter, making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year have on non-athlete student costs? Or employee's kids getting tuition waivers, my nephew gets an alumni scholarship because I went to UD, who is paying for that? Where does the endowments stand these days? The non-athletes are paying for the scholarships, that is laughable. That basketball program, and the arena which exists only because of the basketball program, is the biggest revenue producer the school has.
I would guess that many people worried about NIL are the same people that dislike watching pro sports. I prefer watching people play for the love of the game than for money.

I loved my time at UD and prefer to root for people that also love being there, not people that are only there because UD pays the most money, or aren't good enough to go somewhere that pays more. So many players say they committed to UD because it felt like "home" or "family", you never hear these kind of statements when a pro player signs as a free agent with another team. I find it extremely difficult to root for many pro players (except Obi). So many me-first and diva attitudes.
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Old 04-22-2022, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I'm just not a fan of a system where we pretend that the folks earning the money for the school are being done a favor. You can't decide whether or not to compensate people for their work based on the result you want, (i.e. let's not pay kids or let's regulate it because our team won't benefit). UD has plenty of millionaire alums, if they are worried about falling behind, time to step up. Raise the ticket prices, raise the concession prices. If you are worried, be part of the solution, don't suggest that kids not get paid.
Sports are best when there is a level playing field. The reason the NFL is so popular is because there is a salary cap, keeping teams relatively even. I'm not completely against some form of compensation, but it won't be as good of a product if you have teams paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to each player competing against teams that pay $50 and free dinner at the cafeteria.
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Old 04-22-2022, 01:21 PM
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Gazoo, I must be the only one hung up on giving scholarships to players who may be earning 7 digits per year with an NIL deal. A player could easily earn more than the average salary of a professor in Ohio (less than $100,000) and still get an athletic scholarship. That just seems absurd to me. Iíve long disagreed with the NCAA about allowing players to make money off of their NIL. I thought it was ridiculous that players couldnít get paid to work camps in their off seasons. Schools made money off of the strength of their branding on the backs of their athletes. But, I fear the pendulum has swung to far in the other direction.
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Old 04-22-2022, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Sports are best when there is a level playing field. The reason the NFL is so popular is because there is a salary cap, keeping teams relatively even. I'm not completely against some form of compensation, but it won't be as good of a product if you have teams paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to each player competing against teams that pay $50 and free dinner at the cafeteria.
I agree. Those who say the NIL won't kill college basketball are wrong, unless some restraints are put on it. Along with a salary cap, the NFL shares revenue really well and has the best teams play the hardest schedule. MLB does not share revenue well, and their salary cap is a farce. This has caused the big market teams to buy the best talent while the small market teams give up (the Reds). Attendance throughout the league has suffered. MLB will have to fix this situation, and the NCAA will have to address it also, the sooner the better. Obviously, as the schools cannot pay the players, revenue sharing will not be the issue, but some restraints will be needed. Until then, where do I send my check for the UD Collective?
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Old 04-22-2022, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Attendance throughout the league has suffered.

Oakland played Baltimore a couple days ago. Announced attendance: 2,703.



There's no digit missing.
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Old 04-22-2022, 03:53 PM
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Hyde Park, those are all fair points, and to be clear I wasn't calling you a marxist, but to me "paying" someone less, or not at all because they may be able generate another income stream doesn't sit well. I think the only people who don't see college basketball as a business are the fans and to a presently declining extent the players. The schools, the tv networks, the shoe companies, the sportsbooks, all see it as huge business. I view the scholarship as the compensation the school pays, the NIL is what the player can garner on the open market.

I get, to Gazoo's point, that not all the markets are the same and a "salary cap" seems reasonable to me but I am not sure it is legal. We are where are in large part because of legal decisions and once we say that players can be paid, I don't know that we can put the genie half way back in the bottle and have the NCAA or anyone else can say that they can regulate a marketing agreement between a player and a private business. I don't like it but I think that is the law. The pro leagues collectively bargain and so their regulations are agreed upon rather than imposed, (there is obviously no regulation of what an NBA player can be paid by Nike or whoever).

I also love college basketball and vastly prefer it to the NBA, but my preference isn't the basis for somebody not getting treated fairly. A kid could be on academic scholarship at UD could start a software company and earn a million dollars a year. A talented musician on scholarship could be the lead guitarist for the Foo Fighters and all kinds of absurd but possible examples. I get that this could all ruin the game we love, but I don't know what the answers are. Maybe the unfortunate answer is that monatized sports don't really have anything to do with post-secondary education. I don't want that to be the answer but maybe it is.
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Old 04-22-2022, 04:12 PM
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Your last paragraph is a problem that has resonated with me for years. An athlete should be able to make something. How this should be shepherded (is this a word?) is tough. Really tough for me.
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Old 04-22-2022, 04:40 PM
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To correct myself...UD or any other school could attach as a condition of the scholarship that you can't earn more than $X per year from NIL. Every school would have to do it or it would mean nothing. I suppose the NCAA could say that you have to attach such a condition to be a member institution but that could backfire spectacularly (P5 just say "fine"), and probably is a little bit shakier from a legal standpoint.
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Old 04-22-2022, 04:59 PM
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Eliminate all scholarships and let the players figure their own self worth out and pitch that to sponsors. The world without the benefit of a schools logo-program behind them is a whole lot harder. That would change the landscape. Most of the players don’t realize it’s a two-way street. They just want to play both sides of the coin. I don’t think they should be able to double-dip and as someone suggested above, many be there is a cap to earnings to still keep your scholarship. I also understand players should be able to sell t-shirts with their name on them, etc. It’s kind of like Megan &Harry leaving the Royal Family because they want to make their own money. Well you don’t get your security detail paid for then. There are no easy answers and it’s new and complex. But I would bet money drives a lot of what’s coming down the pipeline and it’s not going to be pretty. How the heck are coaches going to manage the chemistry on a team when some players are driving new cars and taking dates to the best steakhouse in town and others have to budget to go to McDonalds?
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Old 04-22-2022, 05:19 PM
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To me you're either amateur or a professional. You can't be halfway pregnant. If you want to earn money like a professional then fine. But also learn to start paying all your bills like a professional too...including tuition, room and board, books, fees, etc.

The way NIL is now, athletes get all the perks of being a grown up without any of the responsibility. That's no way to run a railroad.

As Becky hinted, the easiest solution is to pick your status and choose that economic path. If you want no financial responsibility, choose the scholarship route. If you want NIL and wish to capitalize on your own money train, you must cover your own bills. The university's platform, megaphone, and brand is in large part why you have the tools to make money with NIL to begin with. Without their backbone, you running your own independent marketing firm wouldn't generate 1/100th the ROI.
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Old 04-22-2022, 07:18 PM
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No sure why people are going after the athletes. It's a job. Just pay them.
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Old 04-22-2022, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
No sure why people are going after the athletes. It's a job. Just pay them.
I agree it is a job...and they have been getting paid. Room, board, tuition and spending accounts. I know a former volleyball scholarship player that graduated from UD with about $20,000 in the bank, a lot of it from scholarship money. She wasnít a big spender, so when they got stipends, etc she never spent it all and she banked that. They all have accounts at the bookstore. She had to work to spend that all every semester. When family came to watch her play, she always got them a t-shirt. Same with birthdays and Christmas for her immediate family. I think she had to spend the bookstore account money every semester ó it did not roll over. But there are other things they receive cash/checks for. So they get paid folks. All within NCAA rules. Some just arenít smart about how they spend it. In this case, she also worked summers while staying in Dayton to train as a team. School didnít pay for any of that. But, she left with enough for a down payment on a condo. Smart girl. Others blow through theirs and now they are going to get more which I think will cause even bigger financial issues including tax issues. It isnít always greener.
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Old 04-22-2022, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
To me you're either amateur or a professional. You can't be halfway pregnant.
My beer belly 23 years post UD would like to challenge your halfway pregnant comment.
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Old 04-22-2022, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
To me you're either amateur or a professional. You can't be halfway pregnant. If you want to earn money like a professional then fine. But also learn to start paying all your bills like a professional too...including tuition, room and board, books, fees, etc.

The way NIL is now, athletes get all the perks of being a grown up without any of the responsibility. That's no way to run a railroad.

As Becky hinted, the easiest solution is to pick your status and choose that economic path. If you want no financial responsibility, choose the scholarship route. If you want NIL and wish to capitalize on your own money train, you must cover your own bills. The university's platform, megaphone, and brand is in large part why you have the tools to make money with NIL to begin with. Without their backbone, you running your own independent marketing firm wouldn't generate 1/100th the ROI.
I agree this is the best solution. You are either an amateur or a professional. If I am a scratch golfer for Texas like a Scottie Scheffler or Jordan Spieth should I be allowed to participate in a tournament on a weekend where 2 million dollars goes to the winner. The answer is NO because you have to be on the PGA Tour and be a card carrier!

I don't know why the NCAA had to even change anything and establish the NIL because I don't think they took everything into consideration. They opened up a whole can of worms!
A four year full ride scholarship for a University like UD is worth $200,000 or maybe even a quarter of a million. Isn't that enough for an 18 to a 22 year old? If they don't think so let them pay their own way! Most of their classmates have student loans to pay back after they graduate anyway! Anytime money is involved it will create all kinds of problems. As it was stated in an earlier post how would you like to be a coach trying to manage the chemistry on a team when some players are driving new cars and taking dates to the best steakhouse in town and others have to budget to go to McDonald's?
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Old 04-22-2022, 10:38 PM
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NIL doesn't pay athletes for playing a sport well (unlike the PGA analogy below), it pays them for their celebrity. Why should anyone be prohibited from using celebrity, regardless of the source of that celebrity, to make money endorsing products? Universities don't place these restrictions on other student entertainers, e.g. musical theatre majors, who are on scholarship.

If you recall, this really came to a head a couple of years ago with the NCAA Basketball video game (not sure of the actual name, I'm not a gamer), which was raking in untold millions using actual player NILs without paying. If you are a celebrity, for whatever reason, why should others be able to make money by using your name or likeness without paying you for it?

Is this likely to be abused by deep pocket schools and alumni? You betcha. Is it likely to be unfairly applied and cause resentment within programs since not all are equally famous and desired by advertisers? Probably. Welcome to the market.
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Old 04-22-2022, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
To me you're either amateur or a professional. You can't be halfway pregnant. If you want to earn money like a professional then fine. But also learn to start paying all your bills like a professional too...including tuition, room and board, books, fees, etc.

The way NIL is now, athletes get all the perks of being a grown up without any of the responsibility. That's no way to run a railroad.

As Becky hinted, the easiest solution is to pick your status and choose that economic path. If you want no financial responsibility, choose the scholarship route. If you want NIL and wish to capitalize on your own money train, you must cover your own bills. The university's platform, megaphone, and brand is in large part why you have the tools to make money with NIL to begin with. Without their backbone, you running your own independent marketing firm wouldn't generate 1/100th the ROI.
What if you had to choose as you leave high school. Have one track where you choose a free education but no payments, and you get to pursue playing a sport for fun. The other track you get paid but have to work, and are free to do whatever you want.

I think this could work.
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Old 04-22-2022, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad S. View Post
NIL doesn't pay athletes for playing a sport well (unlike the PGA analogy below), it pays them for their celebrity. Why should anyone be prohibited from using celebrity, regardless of the source of that celebrity, to make money endorsing products? Universities don't place these restrictions on other student entertainers, e.g. musical theatre majors, who are on scholarship.
I bet they 100% have these restrictions. If you are a UD engineering or music theater major and you are using UD resources -- buildings, materials, branding, logos, or any other resources to run a personal business and make money on your celebrity, they'd not only shut you down, they'd probably kick you out of school and file a lawsuit for good measure.

Now if you are a UD engineering or music theater student and want to work the late shift at Arbys and merely represent Arbys, that's another matter. If you want to start your own web site hosted on your own servers and paid for by you and the engineering student wants to solicit work tutoring HS kids -- they can and should be able to do that (already the case). Same with the music theater student posting flyers at the Dew Drop Inn looking to land some gigs as a bandmate. But all of those opportunities are specifically outside the footprint, jurisdiction, and physical/intellectual property of the school.

In the case of the athletes and NIL, its being handled completely differently because they are right there on TV on campus grounds, with perhaps the university logo plastered all over their clothes as they promote themselves and third party products.

If the tuba player for the Pride of Dayton however wanted to cash in on their celebrity and appeared in a commercial for White Allen European Auto Group in their band uniform, it would be World War III.

The ground I stand on is less about which direction all of this NIL stuff deserves to go and more about the rules for thee but not for me, double-standards, and hypocrisies that prevail the deeper you go down the rabbit hole.

I think you brought up a perfectly good point however. Why should the engineering or music theater student be treated any differently than the athlete? My answer is they shouldn't -- provided we're in agreement that this is an employer-employee relationship now and as the employer, UD has the right and responsibility to treat all students equally and provide them with the same access to capitalize on their market value through the branding and marketing arm of the university -- whether its athletics or academics.

But that's not how things are set up at the moment. Athletes now have special rights to prostitute university colors for financial gain while everyone else does not. My position is every enrollee is a student -- but not all enrollees are athletes or brilliant violinists. Treat every student with the same rules of the game -- either everyone can exploit the tools and brand of the university for personal financial gain with their jumpshot or their violin skills or no one can. I'm comfortable with either direction.
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Old 04-23-2022, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
But that's not how things are set up at the moment. Athletes now have special rights to prostitute university colors for financial gain while everyone else does not. My position is every enrollee is a student -- but not all enrollees are athletes or brilliant violinists. Treat every student with the same rules of the game -- either everyone can exploit the tools and brand of the university for personal financial gain with their jumpshot or their violin skills or no one can. I'm comfortable with either direction.
I am certainly no expert on the ins-and-outs of NIL, but I have a hard time believing that athletes have unfettered access to trademarked university items, e.g. logos, for personal financial gain. If you take the DaRon Holmes Lee's commercials, one would think that UD approved his wear of the UD basketball uniform. Perhaps it was allowed because Lee's is a sponsor at the arena, or perhaps they got a cut. Who knows. Otherwise, I would think that the athlete would have to appear in some generic garb, probably similar in color to UD's uniform. You see the same thing with pro athlete commercials where they are wearing some generic uniform, as the NBA/NFL/MLB team owns the trademarked logos. I would think it'd be the same for the tuba player, who wouldn't be able to appear in a UD band uniform without permission, but could appear in a similar, yet generic, band uniform.

I agree with you that every student should have equal access to trademarked university items used for commerce. Whether that's all or none is not my concern, as long as it's applied consistently across the board.
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Old 04-23-2022, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I bet they 100% have these restrictions. If you are a UD engineering or music theater major and you are using UD resources -- buildings, materials, branding, logos, or any other resources to run a personal business and make money on your celebrity, they'd not only shut you down, they'd probably kick you out of school and file a lawsuit for good measure.

Now if you are a UD engineering or music theater student and want to work the late shift at Arbys and merely represent Arbys, that's another matter. If you want to start your own web site hosted on your own servers and paid for by you and the engineering student wants to solicit work tutoring HS kids -- they can and should be able to do that (already the case). Same with the music theater student posting flyers at the Dew Drop Inn looking to land some gigs as a bandmate. But all of those opportunities are specifically outside the footprint, jurisdiction, and physical/intellectual property of the school.

In the case of the athletes and NIL, its being handled completely differently because they are right there on TV on campus grounds, with perhaps the university logo plastered all over their clothes as they promote themselves and third party products.

If the tuba player for the Pride of Dayton however wanted to cash in on their celebrity and appeared in a commercial for White Allen European Auto Group in their band uniform, it would be World War III.

The ground I stand on is less about which direction all of this NIL stuff deserves to go and more about the rules for thee but not for me, double-standards, and hypocrisies that prevail the deeper you go down the rabbit hole.

I think you brought up a perfectly good point however. Why should the engineering or music theater student be treated any differently than the athlete? My answer is they shouldn't -- provided we're in agreement that this is an employer-employee relationship now and as the employer, UD has the right and responsibility to treat all students equally and provide them with the same access to capitalize on their market value through the branding and marketing arm of the university -- whether its athletics or academics.

But that's not how things are set up at the moment. Athletes now have special rights to prostitute university colors for financial gain while everyone else does not. My position is every enrollee is a student -- but not all enrollees are athletes or brilliant violinists. Treat every student with the same rules of the game -- either everyone can exploit the tools and brand of the university for personal financial gain with their jumpshot or their violin skills or no one can. I'm comfortable with either direction.
Chris you are 100% right about the university resources, branding, etc... The school should be compensated if the athletes use it to promote their name, image and likeness just like anyone else I assume pays a licensing fees to produce and sell tee shirts, coffee mugs whatever. Beyond that though I am with Brad.

There is sort of a chicken and egg argument when it comes to the actual celebrity (name image likeness), would the kid have the celebrity if not for UD or some other school? Probably not, would UD have the status is does based on historical basketball success without the players, definitely not. I love UD, but I don't make an annual pilgrimage to Dayton for the Arena, beautiful as it is. Bottom line is every person owns their own name image and likeness regardless of what somebody else may contribute to it, (I bet UD doesn't pay Obi royalties for advancing their brand, nor should they).

There are lots of benefits to the school also. Obi taking a walk on the beach with Jay Bilas promotes Dayton, Daron Holmes being on SportsCenter because he blocks 7 shots in a game promotes Dayton. Would we prefer Mail appear on a billboard in downtown Dayton in a Nike shirt? Ultimately, I think telling kids, you can have a scholarship or what is behind door #2, whatever that may be, will hasten the era when best kids don't go to college at all.

It also is not as simple as the NCAA or UD laying down a rule. There is a US Supreme Court opinion here and while there is still plenty or room for future interpretation, be careful what you wish for. I think the NCAA realizes that the more their power gets chipped away the less relevant they become. There is also an element of throwing in the towel here I think after the latest FBI investigation. They are never going to stop payments to elite players so why bang your head against the wall?

Chris your point about amateur vs. professional is 100% correct but I just don't know how to fit that peg into the hole that is 2022. As far as i know Olympic athletes aren't restricted from marketing income, and they receive what I would compare to a scholarship in the form of housing, training, etc...

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Old 04-23-2022, 09:18 AM
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Option A or Option B sounds great but it doesnít work because itís too simplistic because it disregards too many other factors that are fully embedded in the college sports world.

First Option A has been the standard for decades but greed quickly set in and players have been being paid for a long time and when finally caught and punished, most often the ones most guilty got harmed the least as they just move on with little to no harm to themselves. Those left behind suffer consequences often with no real choice to leave and go elsewhere.

Next someone pointed out a UD degree costs $200K - $250K. How much does a degree at OSU cost? To be Ďfairí should kids going to OSU be compensated in cash for the difference?

Degrees from Harvard or Yale are worth more in prestige and future opportunity than others. How do you balance that out so everyone gets the same and all schools get an equal chance at each athlete which seems to be the driving argument by most claiming NIL will ruin college sports. It hasnít been equal or fair for decades.

Facts are that ever since college sports have become worth billions of dollars annually, equality, fairness and integrity have gone out the window. All the people in power take care of themselves and their university to increase their share of the available cash while the athletes still get basically the same thing they got when amateur athletics werenít all about money.

All you need to do to know about how much money is the driving factor is to look at the salaries of those in charge of the cash cow programs at the school. Does the UD baseball coach make what AG makes? Should he make more? Heís in charge of more players, coaches more games, has a shorter period of time to prepare between games etc.

Until the money is removed from the equation, which will never happen without a nationwide economic collapse money and the greed for it will drive the decisions being made by the entities in charge (NCAA, conferences, networks, university leadership). NIL and no transfer aren't the culprits, just the natural byproducts of a corrupt system.

At least those largely responsible for the money will be getting some more of the increase that currently goes to only a select few. Whether that is good or bad for college sports depends on how wide or narrow your view is of college sports. If itís only how much it will affect your team then youíll likely only see it as horrible.

I am not for this either but itís the insane money that is causing this and for the choices being made. I love amateur athletics the most but this hasnít been that for decades. If/When this turns into the NBA minor leagues I will be done buying tickets, merchandise and likely even watching. Iíve stopped watching all pro sports.

The Flyers have always been my most passionate sports/entertainment outlet but only because it was more like the amateur sports I grew up participating in and watching. Once that is mostly gone, and we are close, I will be gone with no real sadness or regrets since what I really loved is now just a mirage and a shell of what it is supposed to be all about.
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Old 04-23-2022, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I agree it is a job...and they have been getting paid. Room, board, tuition and spending accounts. I know a former volleyball scholarship player that graduated from UD with about $20,000 in the bank, a lot of it from scholarship money. She wasnít a big spender, so when they got stipends, etc she never spent it all and she banked that. They all have accounts at the bookstore. She had to work to spend that all every semester. When family came to watch her play, she always got them a t-shirt. Same with birthdays and Christmas for her immediate family. I think she had to spend the bookstore account money every semester ó it did not roll over. But there are other things they receive cash/checks for. So they get paid folks. All within NCAA rules. Some just arenít smart about how they spend it. In this case, she also worked summers while staying in Dayton to train as a team. School didnít pay for any of that. But, she left with enough for a down payment on a condo. Smart girl. Others blow through theirs and now they are going to get more which I think will cause even bigger financial issues including tax issues. It isnít always greener.
Thanks for that incredible reality. We only hear the sniveling stories of the athletes who say they do not have enough money. And how much is enough?

I love amateur sports!
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Old 04-23-2022, 09:51 AM
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I was thinking about this last night. Friday nights are probably not the time for deep thoughts, but here goes...

Obi signed with an agent for his marketing opportunities. Probably pays the agent 10-15%. Maybe less if the deals are high dollar. 7% use to be the lowest payout for NFL players 20 years ago, so my guess is 10-15% today is an educated guess. I’m sure the contract reads all marketing deals go thru the agency even if someone approaches Obi. That’s standard. He has to tell them to call the agency. There might be a clause that with written approval there are some exceptions for small deals like if Obi comes back to do something for UD. But basically everything goes through the agency.

So why not run it the same at the college level, except the University is the agency. These deals are smaller so I think 15% is the right amount. Everything runs through the University and they get their 15% cut and that helps offsets scholarship dollars going to the student-athletes. If someone gets a big deal their scholarship might be totally “refunded” to the University and might even help pay for others. Smaller deals simply offset some of the costs proportionally. But it’s fair for all involved. The athletes get the opportunity to cash in on their NIL and the University is compensated for their contribution to the athlete’s marketability. The NCAA should move down this road as part of the scholarship agreements. They could also give the student athlete an “out” if they want to keep all their NIL money then they pass on scholarship funds. They would still count as a scholarship student, but they opt out. There might be some kids who have sponsorship deals already lined up before they sign with a school. But that will be very few if any. This would also balance the issue of the violinist on scholarship. That student doesn’t have the university resources behind them increasing their marketability. They aren’t on TV every week showcasing their skills. The university isn’t even streaming their concerts, etc. The University probably isn’t entitled to any of their fees giving violin lessons to local high school kids, etc.
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Old 04-23-2022, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I bet they 100% have these restrictions. If you are a UD engineering or music theater major and you are using UD resources -- buildings, materials, branding, logos, or any other resources to run a personal business and make money on your celebrity, they'd not only shut you down, they'd probably kick you out of school and file a lawsuit for good measure.

Now if you are a UD engineering or music theater student and want to work the late shift at Arbys and merely represent Arbys, that's another matter. If you want to start your own web site hosted on your own servers and paid for by you and the engineering student wants to solicit work tutoring HS kids -- they can and should be able to do that (already the case). Same with the music theater student posting flyers at the Dew Drop Inn looking to land some gigs as a bandmate. But all of those opportunities are specifically outside the footprint, jurisdiction, and physical/intellectual property of the school.

In the case of the athletes and NIL, its being handled completely differently because they are right there on TV on campus grounds, with perhaps the university logo plastered all over their clothes as they promote themselves and third party products.

If the tuba player for the Pride of Dayton however wanted to cash in on their celebrity and appeared in a commercial for White Allen European Auto Group in their band uniform, it would be World War III.

The ground I stand on is less about which direction all of this NIL stuff deserves to go and more about the rules for thee but not for me, double-standards, and hypocrisies that prevail the deeper you go down the rabbit hole.

I think you brought up a perfectly good point however. Why should the engineering or music theater student be treated any differently than the athlete? My answer is they shouldn't -- provided we're in agreement that this is an employer-employee relationship now and as the employer, UD has the right and responsibility to treat all students equally and provide them with the same access to capitalize on their market value through the branding and marketing arm of the university -- whether its athletics or academics.

But that's not how things are set up at the moment. Athletes now have special rights to prostitute university colors for financial gain while everyone else does not. My position is every enrollee is a student -- but not all enrollees are athletes or brilliant violinists. Treat every student with the same rules of the game -- either everyone can exploit the tools and brand of the university for personal financial gain with their jumpshot or their violin skills or no one can. I'm comfortable with either direction.
What's the NIL situation for the UD students that appear in the UD commercials we see on TV during basketball games? They are using UD facilities in the commercial but is UD using their images for free?
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Old 04-23-2022, 02:23 PM
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Well they used to print those name and likeness waivers on the back of ticket stubs. My guess is it's still a part of the ticket contract.

If it's a generic commercial for hire, yeah I'd want to get paid if I were a student and had to show up at 8am somewhere on campus to shoot a commercial. Nobody else works for free so why should they. Maybe they do get compensated though.
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Old 04-23-2022, 10:26 PM
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@LifeWallet is proud to announce @NijelPack24 has officially committed to UM as a basketball player. The biggest LifeWallet deal to date, two years $800,000.00 total at $400,000.00 per year plus a car. Congratulations!!!
@johnnyruiz4 @alex7ruiz @ddiazon7

Nijel Pack was one of the top transfers in the portal
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Old 04-24-2022, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
@AdamFinkelstein
ďRecruitingĒ has become contract negotiations at the highest levels.


@JohnHRuiz
***BREAKING NEWS***
@LifeWallet is proud to announce @NijelPack24 has officially committed to UM as a basketball player. The biggest LifeWallet deal to date, two years $800,000.00 total at $400,000.00 per year plus a car. Congratulations!!!
@johnnyruiz4 @alex7ruiz @ddiazon7

Nijel Pack was one of the top transfers in the portal
Three weeks ago, I watched this segment of CBS Sunday Morning on the NIL. It features a University of Miami booster, John Ruiz. Life Wallet is his app. It's about 8 minutes long, very interesting.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-co...tage-of-nil/#x
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  #83  
Old 04-24-2022, 12:03 PM
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Scary for U's and the NCAA. Which IMO is what they deserve after years of hiding under rocks and dodging issues.
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  #84  
Old 04-24-2022, 12:13 PM
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Money rules and it’s not going to be pretty. In pro sports the owners share the revenues for this very reason, so the richest can buy championships. They have draft picks and rules that give the worst teams a shot at the best players, so the richest can buy the top 3 players every year. They have salary caps so the richest again, can’t buy championships. That will not be the case in college. Scary for sure.

SMU is reactivating their slush fund to pay the best college players and wondering if they can sue the NCAA for damages and to get their reputation back. The SMU sandal will pale in comparison to what’s coming down the pipeline and it will all be legal.

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Old 04-24-2022, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan View Post
Three weeks ago, I watched this segment of CBS Sunday Morning on the NIL. It features a University of Miami booster, John Ruiz. Life Wallet is his app. It's about 8 minutes long, very interesting.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-co...tage-of-nil/#x
So at the end of the day, it's not about the power 5 versus anyone else, it's my rich booster against your rich booster. Ivy League should have a lot of championships coming up . . .
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Old 04-24-2022, 06:05 PM
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At some point a perpetually struggling program is going to try go all in the NIL route.

Coaches salaries are mostly funded by boosters

If you're say a Duquense why pay your next $800,000. Hire one for $300k and take that $500k from the boosters to spend on players

$500k isn't going to get you Nijel Pack but I'm sure that would entice 2-3 productive transfers to come in. That could buy you the core to compete for an A10 title
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Old 04-24-2022, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
So at the end of the day, it's not about the power 5 versus anyone else, it's my rich booster against your rich booster. Ivy League should have a lot of championships coming up . . .
Your alums still have to be big sports fans and it has to be a priority in their after college life. The bigger schools like Michigan can rack up buckets of money with $25-$100 donations added to their wealthy alums participation. My guess is proportionally Ivy League alums might not be so bought in to athletic donations. Who knows how it plays out. My advise to UD...start courting Elon Musk now. The man needs an honorary degree from UD and court side seats sooner rather than later.
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  #88  
Old 04-24-2022, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Your alums still have to be big sports fans and it has to be a priority in their after college life. The bigger schools like Michigan can rack up buckets of money with $25-$100 donations added to their wealthy alums participation. My guess is proportionally Ivy League alums might not be so bought in to athletic donations. Who knows how it plays out. My advise to UD...start courting Elon Musk now. The man needs an honorary degree from UD and court side seats sooner rather than later.
And Flyers can Tweet.
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  #89  
Old 04-24-2022, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
And Flyers can Tweet.
Play our cards right and we could get all P5 schools and their players kicked off Twitter. Do not let them become influencers and that will limit their NIL value.
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  #90  
Old 04-25-2022, 08:34 AM
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From a fan site about Nijel Pack and why (probably) OSU couldn't land him.

https://scarletandgame.com/2022/04/2...ffering-a-car/

"Chris Holtmann and the rest of the Ohio State basketball program weren’t willing to put a package together like that, so Pack decided to go elsewhere. I can’t really blame him for wanting something like that, especially now that it’s legal for boosters to offer something like this."

"We’ll see if Holtmann learns to keep up with the new rules or not."

Last edited by Lifelong Flyer Fan; 04-25-2022 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 04-25-2022, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Your alums still have to be big sports fans and it has to be a priority in their after college life. The bigger schools like Michigan can rack up buckets of money with $25-$100 donations added to their wealthy alums participation. My guess is proportionally Ivy League alums might not be so bought in to athletic donations. Who knows how it plays out. My advise to UD...start courting Elon Musk now. The man needs an honorary degree from UD and court side seats sooner rather than later.
I agree 110%. But it only takes 1 Billionaire sports minded booster to tip the scales and the Ivies have a boatload of Billionaires. We have Larry Conner - he has connections to send players to space . . . .
How has this whole thing become a discussion in college sports . . . money ruins everything.
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  #92  
Old 04-25-2022, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
I agree 110%. But it only takes 1 Billionaire sports minded booster to tip the scales and the Ivies have a boatload of Billionaires. We have Larry Conner - he has connections to send players to space . . . .
How has this whole thing become a discussion in college sports . . . money ruins everything.
Careful now. As some posters on here say. "Nothing to see here, lets all move on."
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:04 AM
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As for Miami:

First off, does anyone remember the Miami U FB teams and their various scandals?

Yes I know we laid an L on them this past season ..... but between the money flow and the environment. It is enticing to think what can happen there with the NIL money and draw of South Beach.

I can't imagine any of us at the age of 18-21 with roughly 6 figures of cash and being in that environment ... man!

Oh! And a car! What kind I don't know but it wouldn't be a Toyota Corolla would it?
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Well they used to print those name and likeness waivers on the back of ticket stubs. My guess is it's still a part of the ticket contract.

If it's a generic commercial for hire, yeah I'd want to get paid if I were a student and had to show up at 8am somewhere on campus to shoot a commercial. Nobody else works for free so why should they. Maybe they do get compensated though.
I've been in certain settings (including TV audiences) where they basically say prior to the airing/filming that by staying in the audience you waive the right/accept the filming of your image [or something like that]. If you do not accept that you have to leave.

Of course I always stayed, since who would want to look at my ugly mug anyway! Can't say I didn't warn ya!
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Old 04-25-2022, 10:32 AM
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Harvardís endowment is over $51 billion. Scads of extremely deep pockets who give. No other school has more (5 of the 10 biggest endowments are Ivy League schools: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, and Columbia). I am more than sure that there are boosters who support and will pay for athletics. Yale hired the former CEO of P&G to straighten out labor problems (this affected the school golf course, which was a point of emphasis). Think about that. If anyone can buy victories, it would be the Ivy League schools.
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Old 04-25-2022, 11:57 AM
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Unless things change and reign this in somehow...it’s the beginning of the end. I have to think the NCAA will wake up and fight to protect amateur sports. Otherwise they are dead in the water. I 100% agree these athletes have the right to earn money. But I also believe the member schools of the NCAA have the right to set up and run amateur sports programs that prohibit the players from being paid or at least cap it. That does NOT take away the athletes access to the free marketplace to try to make big bucks. It’s their choice to either enter into an agreement with a NCAA member school under the terms of at least a capped earnings agreement...let’s say $20,000 per year. Or...they don’t have to go that route. They can go straight to the G-League or NBA and line up whatever endorsement opportunities they can. That is NOT limiting the athlete. They have a choice. They don’t have to go the college route.

Right now it’s going to be a train wreck.
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Old 04-25-2022, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
Did they write the piece on their free time or UDs time?
This is a hypothetical student not an employee. UD does not own anyone's time.
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Old 04-25-2022, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Harvardís endowment is over $51 billion. Scads of extremely deep pockets who give. No other school has more (5 of the 10 biggest endowments are Ivy League schools: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, and Columbia). I am more than sure that there are boosters who support and will pay for athletics. Yale hired the former CEO of P&G to straighten out labor problems (this affected the school golf course, which was a point of emphasis). Think about that. If anyone can buy victories, it would be the Ivy League schools.
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Yet, they never have. They have always had that money and I will assume that there are people at Yale who are AT LEAST as smart as the guy at Arizona figuring out how to get money to the players (before it was legal).
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Old 04-25-2022, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Unless things change and reign this in somehow...it’s the beginning of the end. I have to think the NCAA will wake up and fight to protect amateur sports. Otherwise they are dead in the water. I 100% agree these athletes have the right to earn money. But I also believe the member schools of the NCAA have the right to set up and run amateur sports programs that prohibit the players from being paid or at least cap it. That does NOT take away the athletes access to the free marketplace to try to make big bucks. It’s their choice to either enter into an agreement with a NCAA member school under the terms of at least a capped earnings agreement...let’s say $20,000 per year. Or...they don’t have to go that route. They can go straight to the G-League or NBA and line up whatever endorsement opportunities they can. That is NOT limiting the athlete. They have a choice. They don’t have to go the college route.

Right now it’s going to be a train wreck.
It is going to be a train wreck but only because it has been a train wreck waiting to happen for 25 years. It will severely dilute college sports but not kill them in my opinion. The new 5 star recruits will be the best kids that can't play in Europe of the NBA out of high school. The NBA will need to get rid of their rule requiring one year out of high school before you can play in the NBA. The people who appreciate kids playing "for the love of the game" are getting exactly what they want.

Everyone who says that money ruins everything is 100% correct but in this instance if college basketball goes away, it will be because it was no longer worth while to the current stake holders and not because we started paying players.

This just is what it is, and whatever happens will happen. The big schools are not going to agree to cap player revenue, if that would even be legal in the first place.

Last edited by Flyers98; 04-25-2022 at 02:16 PM..
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Old 04-25-2022, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Unless things change and reign this in somehow...itís the beginning of the end. I have to think the NCAA will wake up and fight to protect amateur sports. Otherwise they are dead in the water. I 100% agree these athletes have the right to earn money. But I also believe the member schools of the NCAA have the right to set up and run amateur sports programs that prohibit the players from being paid or at least cap it. That does NOT take away the athletes access to the free marketplace to try to make big bucks. Itís their choice to either enter into an agreement with a NCAA member school under the terms of at least a capped earnings agreement...letís say $20,000 per year. Or...they donít have to go that route. They can go straight to the G-League or NBA and line up whatever endorsement opportunities they can. That is NOT limiting the athlete. They have a choice. They donít have to go the college route.

Right now itís going to be a train wreck.
It sounds like because of the Supreme Court decision the NCAA isn't going to do anything. I read they're afraid it they do anything it'll end up back in court and struck down.

They will not create the law or enforce which is why you have this patchwork of state laws

Short of a federal law regulating NIL we might be stuck with the wild west
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