It took 2 years plus 9 games but it finally happened

[Smitty10]

The worst case scenario, Kendall Pollard is the only one who can generate any shots, and Kendall Pollard is the only one who can get to the foul line. It's the first time his FT shooting cost us the game, but he is what he is and we needed others to generate shots today and it didn't happen. I'm certainly not blaming KP, we all know what his weakness is, why couldn't this team find anyone else to get open shots and drive to the hoop and draw fouls?

Well, another difficult learning experience.

[Buckleyma]

I haven't felt this bad to watch someone shoot free throws since George Jackson. I felt compelled to close my eyes.

On the lessons learned front, Archie needs to coach his team to drive to the rim and force contact. The referees are bailing every player out who shows enough moxie to drive toward the basket and penalizing the stand-up shooter.
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[Buster Goode]

Yeah and some people are saying we don't need Pierre this year. LOL!!!!

He creates his own shots and can rebound. Yeah. We don't need that.
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Buster Goode Yeah and some people are saying we don't need Pierre this year. LOL!!!! He creates his own shots and can rebound. Yeah. We don't need that. Posted via Mobile Device

We certainly missed him tonight no doubt. And will miss him again if he decides to redshirt.

This is why we need him this season and not next. Big Steve and Sam will hopefully improve on the offensive
side of the ball and get to the FT line more often as they learn the game. Right now we need our experienced senior.

[San Diego Flyer]

Pretty much right on. This board has been posting for ages that poor freethrow shooting will cost us a game. It almost did at Vandy. And it is safe to say that it did tonight. But of course there were other contributing factors. Not the least of which was getting pounded on the boards in the first half. We overcame that flaw, but 50% second half ft shooting doomed us.

[rollo]

The only thing worse than watching this game was having to sit behind John R and listen to him scream like a 8 year old girl all game.

At least the half time show* was entertaining!

[Avid Flyer]

Originally Posted by rollo The only thing worse than watching this game was having to sit behind John R and listen to him scream like a 8 year old girl all game. At least the half time show* was entertaining!

Seems to me that John R or any UD fan would have the right to scream tonight.....and just what were you doing....applauding that DP was not in uniform and playing.

[priceg75]

Agreed on premise of this thread. Free throws almost bit us at Vanderbilt, and finally did tonight. Can't blame KP too much... Some guys just can't shoot free throws. He was the only guy who seemed to want the ball tonight to begin with.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Buckleyma I haven't felt this bad to watch someone shoot free throws since George Jackson. I felt compelled to close my eyes. On the lessons learned front, Archie needs to coach his team to drive to the rim and force contact. The referees are bailing every player out who shows enough moxie to drive toward the basket and penalizing the stand-up shooter. Posted via Mobile Device

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that George Jackson actually was a better FT shooter than KP. But in the Donoher era, 75 percent FT percentage was normally the low and Jackson was like 60. So yeah, I cringed when he went to line but it was because of how bad he was relative to all the great FT shooters that DD churned out.

If Pollard ever averages the number of rebounds that big George did, his FT percentage won't matter.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that George Jackson actually was a better FT shooter than KP. But in the Donoher era, 75 percent FT percentage was normally the low and Jackson was like 60. So yeah, I cringed when he went to line but it was because of how bad he was relative to all the great FT shooters that DD churned out. If Pollard ever averages the number of rebounds that big George did, his FT percentage won't matter.

Can't recall Jackson's form at the line, but recall that he was an absolute beast on the boards. Sort of the Ryan Perryman of his era. Wouldn't be denied.

Back on FT shooting form, I have to say that Sharky (Sean Finn) had one of the most painful-to-watch forms in recent memory. He'd start with the ball about eye-high, but would have his arms half-extended, so it was already almost 2 feet in front of him. Then, he would almost snap his elbows in slo-mo as he finished the shooting process. No wonder he only shot 55% for his career.
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	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 Can't recall Jackson's form at the line, but recall that he was an absolute beast on the boards. Sort of the Ryan Perryman of his era. Wouldn't be denied. Back on FT shooting form, I have to say that Sharky (Sean Finn) had one of the most painful-to-watch forms in recent memory. He'd start with the ball about eye-high, but would have his arms half-extended, so it was already almost 2 feet in front of him. Then, he would almost snap his elbows in slo-mo as he finished the shooting process. No wonder he only shot 55% for his career. Posted via Mobile Device

Jackson was a better rebounder than Perryman. He averaged 14.5 a game while Perryman averaged 10. Perryman played 116 games with the Flyers and had 1156 while Jackson played 55 with 782. Perryman though was a wiz at the offensive rebound as 40 percent of his rebounds were offensive.

Only Bill Uhl(14.6) has had a better rebounding average than Jackson through their careers with Don May(also 14.5) tied with Jackson for 2nd. That makes May the most astonishing rebounder since he was only 6'4 and also added 22 points per game. Actually, it makes May the greatest flyer of all time period.

Perryman though is UD's all-time greatest offensive rebounder so he certainly still belongs in the debate. This also explains why he is 5th all-time FG percentage.

[longtimefan]

May is the greatest Flyer ever and was an amazing rebounder, but he never led the nation in rebounding. In 97-98, Perryman led the nation with 12.5 rebounds per game. Back in May's day some players were averaging over 20 rebounds per game. I'm not sure why, possibly because there were more rebounds available due to poorer shooting percentages. That is why it is difficult to compare different eras.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by longtimefan May is the greatest Flyer ever and was an amazing rebounder, but he never led the nation in rebounding. In 97-98, Perryman led the nation with 12.5 rebounds per game. Back in May's day some players were averaging over 20 rebounds per game. I'm not sure why, possibly because there were more rebounds available due to poorer shooting percentages. That is why it is difficult to compare different eras.

I believe this is because all fouls back in the day were immediately free throws. There wasn't the bonus/double-bonus until the early 70s if I'm remembering history right.

[Swampy Meadows]

In the pantheon of bad FT shooters at UD, George Jackson was as fugly as KP. Another guy who was right there with them initially was Terry Ross, but he improved his form every year until he got to a decent % by his senior year.

It can be done.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 I believe this is because all fouls back in the day were immediately free throws. There wasn't the bonus/double-bonus until the early 70s if I'm remembering history right.

True, but to offset that and maybe more was the fact there was no shot clock and teams truly did go into the 4 corner quite often to shorten a game. Maybe starting players playing more minutes helped.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan May is the greatest Flyer ever and was an amazing rebounder, but he never led the nation in rebounding. In 97-98, Perryman led the nation with 12.5 rebounds per game. Back in May's day some players were averaging over 20 rebounds per game. I'm not sure why, possibly because there were more rebounds available due to poorer shooting percentages. That is why it is difficult to compare different eras.

I'm going to guess those players that averaged 20 rebounds a game were the 7 footers are close to that. There were a lot smaller teams back then and the tall guys had it pretty easy. Again, another reason why May at 6'4 was an astonishing rebounder.

[Runnin' Rebel]

I would throw Cooke into the category of a player who can generate his own shot

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Runnin' Rebel I would throw Cooke into the category of a player who can generate his own shot

Cooke seems to be much more comfortable in a catch & shoot, or fast break to the rim situation. Scoochie can drive and create. Neither took the intitiative against UTC..

[maddog07]

Is there some level of disconnect between SS and CC?

They have to be in sync for our offense to flow, else all we have is KP and the bull rush as KD is not an effective offensive option and Big Steve or his sub is limited.

[Sea Bass]

They have struggled with spacing and ball/player movement. Throw in stopping the ball too and you have an offense that bogs down in the half court. Some of the spacing issues are related to a lack of perimeter shooting.

Pierre will help but as a team they have to be willing to pass the ball and move.

Look at all the things you have to do to win. You have to sublimate your individual greed for the sake of the team. You have to conform to certain training rules that deny you the chance of having as much fun as your friends are having, You are asked to provide total mental concentration. All those require a great deal, whereas losing requires absolutely nothing. - Pete Carril

[CE80]

Early last year, we struggled when throwing the ball into the big man in the post. Unless the big man has very good one v one moves, he has to be in the right place when he receives the pass and has to act decisively - either quick to the hoop or pass it out to someone else.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows In the pantheon of bad FT shooters at UD . . .

Who can forget Marco Pikaar?

_____________________
Whether your glass is half full or half empty, you still have more to drink

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 I'm going to guess those players that averaged 20 rebounds a game were the 7 footers are close to that. There were a lot smaller teams back then and the tall guys had it pretty easy. Again, another reason why May at 6'4 was an astonishing rebounder.

I'm guessing a lot of factors go into it. Maybe softer rims back then, causing the caroms to stay closer to the hoop? Definitely lower shooting %s in general. The change in the foul rules (where nearly every foul used to lead to at least 1 FT). More shots/game back then. More "team rebounding" now. Back in Jackson's day, UD averaged over 40 rebounds/game. By the time Perryman came on the scene, that was down to @ 33-34 a game, which is where it is now. Based on % of Team Total, they're both in the same stratosphere - "beast mode".
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[priceg75]

Originally Posted by Glen Clark Who can forget Marco Pikaar?

From the same era, Maurice Beyina.

[UD62]

Flyers currently averaging 39.7 rebounds/game

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 I'm guessing a lot of factors go into it. Maybe softer rims back then, causing the caroms to stay closer to the hoop? Definitely lower shooting %s in general. The change in the foul rules (where nearly every foul used to lead to at least 1 FT). More shots/game back then. More "team rebounding" now. Back in Jackson's day, UD averaged over 40 rebounds/game. By the time Perryman came on the scene, that was down to @ 33-34 a game, which is where it is now. Based on % of Team Total, they're both in the same stratosphere - "beast mode". Posted via Mobile Device

Other than FTs, I would've thought less shots a game back then because there was no shot clock. And Donoher never had his teams play the fast paced game they do today. He was always big on controlling the pace and that tended to be on the slow side. The extra FTs make some sense as there were probably about 7 to 10 extra trips to the FT line a game per team. But if there were 10 extra trips to FT line a game per team that's probably 4 extra missed FTs or something like that. So that would be 8 missed FTs a game to be divided up by 10 active players on the court. That number could be lower because I believe FT shooting was better in those days.

Now, maybe there were even more FTs a a game back then due to no shot clock. Meaning a lot more FTs happened within the final 5 or 7 minutes of a game as that was a losing team's only way of getting possessions if the leading team decided to take the air out of the ball with a big lead. Also, there was no bonus point like there is today. The one and one was in effect from the 7th foul on no matter how many fouls occurred afterward. So in today's game, any miss on the front end after the 10th foul is not reboundable, while back then it was in the case of the FT shooter not being in the act of shooting.

So I guess the question is, how much worse was the shooting percentage? And why was the shooting percentage so bad back then when they had no 3 point line so no extra incentive to shoot from as far outside especially with no shot clock. And with no shot clock they had the luxury of waiting for the better shot. I question whether the shooting percentage was worse at all. The only area where shooting percentage would take a hit back then was that there was no dunking the ball and I believe a player couldn't shoot a downward shot, meaning being over the rim and dropping it in. But those were rare misses back then. I believe all shot that weren't from point blank range had a higher percentage in those days.

I'm not arguing with you, because the fact that the Flyers had more Rebounds a game is fact(I'm assuming your numbers are correct). But I'm curious as to why. Part of the reason must be that we had better rebounders relative to our opposition most of the time.

Oh, and one more point for George Jackson. A lot of the Flyers missed FTs came from him so he had less of a chance for rebounding those

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Oh, and one more point for George Jackson. A lot of the Flyers missed FTs came from him so he had less of a chance for rebounding those

But many of his clanked off the rim so hard they came right back to him.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by longtimefan But many of his clanked off the rim so hard they came right back to him.

Well then, that answers the other question, his FTs were more productive than KP's.