Purnell, Gregory, Miller

[John C.]

Of the last three coaches to take us to the NCAA tournament only Purnell was able to succeed at the next level. Purnell had always been successful at turning around programs and did it until he ran into Mission Impossible at Depaul. Gregory had minimal success at GT and Millers stay at Indiana was just short of a disaster (if you talk to Indiana fans.) Is it just easier to succeed at Dayton than the bigger schools? Is it tougher to continue success? What is the reason they they don't reach the success they have at Dayton? Is it just lightening in a bottle?

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by John C. Of the last three coaches to take us to the NCAA tournament only Purnell was able to succeed at the next level. Purnell had always been successful at turning around programs and did it until he ran into Mission Impossible at Depaul. Gregory had minimal success at GT and Millers stay at Indiana was just short of a disaster (if you talk to Indiana fans.) Is it just easier to succeed at Dayton than the bigger schools? Is it tougher to continue success? What is the reason they they don't reach the success they have at Dayton? Is it just lightening in a bottle?

Well, for one, the level of expectation re: what is and what isn't success is probably raised. And that's different across the board - for the examples you reference at Clemson, GTech, DePaul, South Florida and Indiana.

And from a standpoint of NCAAT success, neither Purnell or Gregory had any more or less success at any of their programs, including UD. Purnell's never won an NCAAT game and Gregory's only won one (at UD). Ironically, BG's best season at GTech was the year he got canned.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[N2663R]

So, does this mean that UD is no longer a "stepping stone" program but rather more of a "widow maker" program???

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by N2663R So, does this mean that UD is no longer a "stepping stone" program but rather more of a "widow maker" program???

Does not matter at this point. Grant is here until he decides to retire in 20 years or so!

[Smitty10]

Recruiting and development requirements. You need quality one and dones to compete in the Big Ten. There's no time for patience to wait for an Oliver, Landers, Mikesell etc... to reach leadership roles in their senior seasons.

Having lots of seniors is an equalizer to having the best freshman and sophomore recruits, however, The Indiana's of the world just don't have the patience for that kind of development that sometimes takes years to build and can crumble after that one great season.

So to summarize, it takes a different kind of coach that can go get players that are expected to be in the NBA two years after high school than it does to get players that know they need to develop.

As far as why Purnell was more successful after jumping from UD to Clemson, maybe because he's the only one of the 3 that had to work himself up to UD in first place and knew that different levels required different forms of coaching.

[steve snyder]

You actually have to be able to coach. Miller had good enough talent at IU to win....but he could not develop chemistry, motivate and execute. Those three things separate the winners and losers in the BIG and other top conferences.

[GoFlyer]

Gregory may not have been successful at Georgia Tech, but he has recovered nicely at University of Southern Florida. I am living now in the Bay Area and he get lots of press and appears to have built a good mid major team with a good fan base.

I always thought he was a class act although I thought he was a bit too animated in games and that it was distracting rather than helpful to the players. Funny, we have the exact opposite now. I keep waiting for CAG to get a little more animated....or build more of a rapport with the refs to refute the homer calls.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[434]

Originally Posted by John C. Of the last three coaches to take us to the NCAA tournament only Purnell was able to succeed at the next level. Purnell had always been successful at turning around programs and did it until he ran into Mission Impossible at Depaul. Gregory had minimal success at GT and Millers stay at Indiana was just short of a disaster (if you talk to Indiana fans.) Is it just easier to succeed at Dayton than the bigger schools? Is it tougher to continue success? What is the reason they they don't reach the success they have at Dayton? Is it just lightening in a bottle?

I think you are using a small sample size to create a fallacy. Consider how many coaches in the P-5 conferences that have been let go during the past 25 years (the time frame you are using here). The majority of coaches "fail", and many came from non-P5 conference schools. So UD isn't unique here, that they had a successful coach that failed at a bigger school.

But at least in the A-10, UD is unique, as it actually has a string of successful coaches. If you look at the current make-up of the A-10, other than VCU, most programs have rotated through coaches due to them failing at their A-10 school and being fired.

VCU is the only other program to consistently lose their coach to a bigger program. And their success after VCU is a bit of a mix bag.
Obviously, AG left VCU for Alabama. He had 2 good seasons there, before being fired and ultimately ending up at UD.
Jeff Capel had a couple of good seasons at Oklahoma before being fired.
Will Wade currently is having some success at LSU.
And Shaka Smart, after some rumors of discontent by the fanbase, appears to have hit his stride at Texas.

I will say its probably easier for a coach to have success at UD, due to baked-in advantages over its A-10 breathren (which is why it is annoying that the Flyers have so few A-10 championships over this time frame). And when coaches leave UD for schools that now are at best equal to or usually at a slight disadvantage to their conference members, then success will be harder.

[FlyerBob]

Originally Posted by 434 I will say its probably easier for a coach to have success at UD, due to baked-in advantages over its A-10 breathren (which is why it is annoying that the Flyers have so few A-10 championships over this time frame). And when coaches leave UD for schools that now are at best equal to or usually at a slight disadvantage to their conference members, then success will be harder.

I agree that it's maddening how few times we win this conference. I'll note that of the other 13 schools, it seems there is always one that rises to the occasion each season with the perfect blend of seniors and good coaching.

[Gazoo]

Like 434 points out, *IF* there's anything to be seen here, it might be that the type of player who comes to UD comes to be a part of something bigger. The type of player you need to win at IU goes there to be the schiznit. Different attitudes, different expectations. Kind of like coaching the Lakers, you better understand your role and the role of star power.

[Jack D]

Sorry if already posted, reports indicate Miller is out at IU.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Jack D Sorry if already posted, reports indicate Miller is out at IU.

Seriously?

[Chris R]

Grass is not always greener. Fit is super important. Its why Few has no interest going anywhere, nor does McKillop and several others. They realize putting down roots, having a place to call home, and making a program entirely your own has its perks. Archie definitely got paid today so he's not hurting for taking the Indiana job. Purnell and BG got paid too. But there are only so many yachts you can ski behind. At some point your sanity and comfort at a particular school with halfway realistic expectations carry a material value just like those Federal Reserves lining the pockets. To some, its a trade-off worth making.

Indiana BB fans are like ND football fans -- they think its their God forsaken right to win a national title every four years. Reality is different because the 1980s are gone and aren't coming back. Sweet Lou and The General are not walking through that tunnel ever again. Fans have not adjusted their expectations to deal with the real molecular world the rest of us live in.

I believe what this also tells us is the Dayton job is perhaps better than we give it credit for. Solid coaches with solid chops -- to different degrees -- succeeded at Dayton but failed or failed miserably after they left. Did they get dumber? Unlikely. The tools and resources at UD are as good as Indiana, Michigan State, UCLA, or NC State. The only aces in the hole those institutions have over UD is brand awareness, past performance, and conference affiliation. But the here and now is pretty competitive. As we've seen in the last decade of CBB, barriers are in some ways becoming less and less. The talent pool is larger. Parity is more equitable. The counter to this is the at-large chances at non P6 schools continue to get squeezed due to the scheduling matrix.

Yet if you look at UDs NCAA bids, we got bids when we deserved them and didnt when we didnt. Three or four times we were the cut-line team. Providence and Seton Hall didnt rack up a ton more bids for the same or worse body of work despite being in the Big East. No matter what league you're in, you still have to look the part and win games. Xavier didnt win enough games. But VCU did.

The community and home court advantage and "us against the world" blue collar cult-like culture surrounding UD MBB and the city is unique to the world of CBB for a school this size, in a town this size. Perhaps Creighton is the only other decent comparison but even Creighton had average support until 10-15 years ago. They havent been getting 17,000 a night for 50 years. It was more like 4-6K a night until the 2000s.

The final piece is the money itself. You can still coach at UD and get paid. The benjamin gap isnt all that much anymore unless you're talking Kansas or Duke. The past three coaches didnt leave UD for money other than perhaps Purnell and even then it wasnt like he quadrupled his salary.

There's a case to be made that planting a stake in the ground at schools like UD, SDSU, BYU, Houston, Wichita, VCU, etc are the smarter long-term moves if you want to stay in coaching and not have to both reinvent the wheel and explain away the last job performance that was apparently so inept they paid you more to leave than to stick around.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Like 434 points out, *IF* there's anything to be seen here, it might be that the type of player who comes to UD comes to be a part of something bigger. The type of player you need to win at IU goes there to be the schiznit. Different attitudes, different expectations. Kind of like coaching the Lakers, you better understand your role and the role of star power.

Or maybe, just maybe, the types of thugs with serious character flaws that Miller was allowed and encouraged to recruit to Dayton - and whose behavior was hidden, ignored and quietly covered up - would never be allowed on IUs campus.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by rollo Or maybe, just maybe, the types of thugs with serious character flaws that Miller was allowed and encouraged to recruit to Dayton - and whose behavior was hidden, ignored and quietly covered up - would never be allowed on IUs campus.

Wow, I'm not sure anyone wants to jump on ^^^this^^^ train. Shame on you King.

Yeah, there were a few bad apples in the pail that Archie accumulated over his tenure. But to suggest his recruits were thugs with character flaws, on a broader, more generalizing comment. Sorry, you may want to just go hit delete before the embarrassment of that statement grows.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER Wow, I'm not sure anyone wants to jump on ^^^this^^^ train. Shame on you King. Yeah, there were a few bad apples in the pail that Archie accumulated over his tenure. But to suggest his recruits were thugs with character flaws, on a broader, more generalizing comment. Sorry, you may want to just go hit delete before the embarrassment of that statement grows.

If you only knew...you'd hit delete before I would.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by rollo If you only knew...you'd hit delete before I would.

Ah yes, the cloak of sinister cover-ups and conspiracy theories, with the elitist "I know more than you know" inference.

Sure, maybe I don't want to know. And perhaps that's what you're getting at.

But to characterize all, or even he majority, of Archie's recruits as such is unfair and disrespectful.

[rollo]

'Maybe I don't want to know'...I'll leave that comment alone.

But I never said 'all' or 'majority'...never even hinted that direction. So why would you say that? Probably because you know I'm right.

FWIW, it's common knowledge that Kendall Pollard is my long lost twin. No character flaws there! Same with 'most' of the others.

But the other 3...maybe you should want to know.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER Ah yes, the cloak of sinister cover-ups and conspiracy theories, with the elitist "I know more than you know" inference. Sure, maybe I don't want to know. And perhaps that's what you're getting at. But to characterize all, or even he majority, of Archie's recruits as such is unfair and disrespectful.

Yeah, I'm not buying his insinuations either. If there's one thing that's obvious by now, Rollo might not come out with all he knows about the dirty laundry that took place during AM's years, but he certainly dropped insinuations enough to know who he considered stand-up guys and who he considered low-lifes. He made it obvious that to him, Kavs(who by the way was a Brian Gregory recruit) was the worst of the worst. Scott and Robinson also got his wrath. I'm pretty sure he didn't approve of Sam Miller(at least post drunken episode) and he was ambiguous regarding Pierre. Maybe some of the guys who either got little or no time on the floor or with the program(Rogers, Bass) fit his criteria of trouble makers.

Have no idea what he thought of XW pre-CAG, but I'm pretty sure he liked Scooch and Kyle and know he loved Kendall. Guessing he loved Trey and Ryan also, because if they fit AG's standards, they certainly fit Prince Rollo's. Perhaps he didn't like Big Steve? Cooke? Sibert?

None of this matters though. If Rollo can't list his reasons, or at least the players that caused him to have this opinion of AM's recruits, his accusations shouldn't be taken seriously. "I know but can't tell you, but you'll have to trust me." doesn't mean much on a message board and cannot be taken seriously.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by rollo 'Maybe I don't want to know'...I'll leave that comment alone. But I never said 'all' or 'majority'...never even hinted that direction. So why would you say that? Probably because you know I'm right. FWIW, it's common knowledge that Kendall Pollard is my long lost twin. No character flaws there! Same with 'most' of the others. But the other 3...maybe you should want to know.

Fair enough. But the generalization of your initial comment "the types of thugs with serious character flaws that he was allowed and encouraged to recruit", suggests a broader, more common theme under Archie. To my inferior, uninformed knowledge, it appears to be roughly a "handful" over his what, 8/9 year tenure at UD?

And Archie was "encouraged" to recruit these low class recruits? Encouraged by whom? Other recruits? Assistant coach(s)? University administration? maddog and udscott?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 If Rollo can't list his reasons, or at least the players that caused him to have this opinion of AM's recruits, his accusations shouldn't be taken seriously. "I know but can't tell you, but you'll have to trust me." doesn't mean much on a message board and cannot be taken seriously.

WTF are you talking about?? There are threads with hundreds and hundreds of posts where my reasons are listed. Go find them. Unless you'd rather not know, too.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by rollo WTF are you talking about?? There are threads with hundreds and hundreds of posts where my reasons are listed. Go find them. Unless you'd rather not know, too.

I've read your posts, and other than the one's I mentioned, you have not listed much about any of them that I didn't allude to. Never remember a bad word about Scooch, Kyle, Jordan, Big Steve, Ryan, Trey, Cooke, Price, Dillard, Darrell, Crosby, Jordan Davis, McKinley Wright, Kostas(character I'm referring to not NBA potential) etc...

So no, I'm not going to go back and look at all your previous posts over the years, the first time was painful enough.

[rollo]

In one breath you're supporting SLUFlyer's claims that I characterized all of Miller's recruits as thugs...and like 7 posts later, you're listing all the Miller recruits that I fully supported.

So I'm not sure if I should thank you for your support or call you what you really are...

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by rollo In one breath you're supporting SLUFlyer's claims that I characterized all of Miller's recruits as thugs...and like 7 posts later, you're listing all the Miller recruits that I fully supported. So I'm not sure if I should thank you for your support or call you what you really are...

I never said you characterized all of his recruits as thugs and neither did SLUFlyers. But what I did do is list probably 90 percent of AM's recruits and if you fully support 90 percent, you've totally exaggerated the general character flaws in his recruiting history at UD which tells me there's an underlying hate you have for Archie Miller that you refuse to expose the cause of.

[rollo]

G’night ladies. I have a UDPride Bracket Pool to win. But thanks for your support...although backtracking and flip-flopping is an awkward way to show it.
Posted via Mobile Device

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by 434 Jeff Capel had a couple of good seasons at Oklahoma before being fired. Will Wade currently is having some success at LSU. .

And he should be fired, winning program notwithstanding.

[SeasonTicketFan]

BG did not recruit angels either. Some of his players had serious issues. Not all were reported. Not sure why he got the hall pass and AM did not.
OP had a couple of scandals and questionable issues

The reality is that coaches often gamble on recruits because the top players are taken. And quite a few 18-21 not just athletes have some serious growing up to do.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan BG did not recruit angels either. Some of his players had serious issues. Not all were reported. Not sure why he got the hall pass and AM did not. OP had a couple of scandals and questionable issues The reality is that coaches often gamble on recruits because the top players are taken. And quite a few 18-21 not just athletes have some serious growing up to do.

The BG years weren't as public as the AM years due to the evolution of social media, blogs, etc.

Sign of the times for sure.

What I think we can all agree on is that AG is going to run things the right way, win or lose.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 ...which tells me there's an underlying hate you have for Archie Miller that you refuse to expose the cause of.

I think his dislike of Archie was based on the general feeling that Archie thought that he was too good for UD, and also, Archie didn't go after some of the higher rated recruits because he thought they wouldn't consider UD(something which Grant has exposed as erroneous, although I am sure last year's #1 seed helped a lot). So, there definitely appears to be some legitimate evidence supporting the overall complaints about Archie's time at UD. It is what it is.

[steverino015]

holy heck y'all...)
I need to go back to the first post
and go through this thread,

from the title, I was thinking slow,
stat filled stuff
shoot, ths is drama...)

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think his dislike of Archie was based on the general feeling that Archie thought that he was too good for UD, and also, Archie didn't go after some of the higher rated recruits because he thought they wouldn't consider UD(something which Grant has exposed as erroneous, although I am sure last year's #1 seed helped a lot). So, there definitely appears to be some legitimate evidence supporting the overall complaints about Archie's time at UD. It is what it is.

Then he should be specific as to that being the reason, not covering it up by saying AM continually recruited thugs. I have a feeling it's more personal than that though. Probably met him and he didn't show the proper respect toward Princess Rollo that he craves.

[San Diego Flyer]

I'm thankful that each of our coaches post-OBrian made us better and gave us all they could. AG is now no different. It appears on paper that his progress note worthy, and could yet produce a really good product.

Almost every program in the country has faced the immature young people doing stupid stuff. It's how they deal with it that defines them. Pitino , Harrick, Tarkanian let their staff's handle it so nothing rubs off on them.

I like the path our guy is taking.

[Canonball]

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer And he should be fired, winning program notwithstanding.

Can't believe he's still employed TBH.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Then he should be specific as to that being the reason, not covering it up by saying AM continually recruited thugs. I have a feeling it's more personal than that though. Probably met him and he didn't show the proper respect toward Princess Rollo that he craves.

I heard something similar about when Sean Miller was at Xavier...not friendly/thought he was too good for Xavier...it may run in the family

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[SeasonTicketFan]

If anyone believes that AM was more ambitious and open to leave UD, than OP and BG, they are very naive. OP and BG each wanted to move on as well. UD was not their final destination dream job. AM had clearly more success, so he was pursued more by bigger programs.

I would rather have a coach that other schools want than a coach that other schools did not want. BG was starting to slip into that stereotype when he left.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by ud2 I heard something similar about when Sean Miller was at Xavier...not friendly/thought he was too good for Xavier...it may run in the family

And the fact that Calipari is their mentor....

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER Wow, I'm not sure anyone wants to jump on ^^^this^^^ train. Shame on you King. Yeah, there were a few bad apples in the pail that Archie accumulated over his tenure. But to suggest his recruits were thugs with character flaws, on a broader, more generalizing comment. Sorry, you may want to just go hit delete before the embarrassment of that statement grows.

I remember well his posts on the board regarding certain players. There's no inconsistency here.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Jeff I remember well his posts on the board regarding certain players. There's no inconsistency here.

Scott and Robinson, name any other Miller recruits that Rollo referred to as thugs(or low character) over that period of time. Keeping in mind that he was wishy-washy on Pierre' railroading and Kavs was a Gregory recruit.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[NCkevi]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan OP and BG each wanted to move on as well.

Maybe at some point BG would have wanted to move on but I don't think it was entirely his decision when he did go. The dumpster fire that was Staten pretty much sealed his fate at UD

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Scott and Robinson, name any other Miller recruits that Rollo referred to as thugs(or low character) over that period of time. Keeping in mind that he was wishy-washy on Pierre' railroading and Kavs was a Gregory recruit.

XW had major character issues. I have heard Crosby did as well. Jordan Pierce, while he never played for AM was an AM recruit.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 XW had major character issues. I have heard Crosby did as well. Jordan Pierce, while he never played for AM was an AM recruit.

Don't remember one word about any of them from Rollo, except XW when he didn't get along with CAG. Not a word his first two seasons here nor anything about Crosby. And really, not getting along with the new boss doesn't make you a thug.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by ud2 I think his dislike of Archie was based on the general feeling that Archie thought that he was too good for UD

There were a handful of posters that knew first hand of shenanigans that went on during the AM years. (For the record, there were a handful under the BG years as well). I am not going to rehash the past, but there are hundreds of posts during that era that spelled out things that happened, the lack of transparency by UD Police Department (due to the public records laws of that time that have since changed), and first hand accounts from people that had direct knowledge of incidents. Many of these were years ago and the sources and people move on from certain points of contact within and around a program. (which is good)

I will say it again, Anthony Grant appears to be running a program the right way. College athletes will screw up. It's inevitable. It will probably happen under AG eventually, but it will most likely be handled in a different manner. There were many people that had ears in places they don't have ears now.

I didn't dislike Archie for leaving. I thought he took chances with players that weren't of the standard that UD should have been recruiting and didn't fire players when they needed fired. His wife was also a complete train wreck and not representative of what a standard of conduct should be by someone tied to one of the highest levels of the University. The results were good under Archie and he gave the fans something the majority never experienced. With that, I always had a pill in my gut that knew if he were around longer, heat would have been on the program either internally or externally. You can only play with fire for so long.

I am not going to classify players as a certain category, but there are differences in work ethic and attitudes versus those that had contact with the criminal justice system. I will also say that a lack of transparency by UD PD made things worse than better...all in the name of their interpretation of the Sunshine Law, FOIA. and Title. It wasn't a good look for UD and I am glad that is past us.

[UDEE79]

I recall Archie's wife mixing it up on Twitter in ways that were a tad untoward. But why do you classify her as a "train wreck"

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by UDEE79 I recall Archie's wife mixing it up on Twitter in ways that were a tad untoward. But why do you classify her as a "train wreck"

PM sent

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Don't remember one word about any of them from Rollo, except XW when he didn't get along with CAG. Not a word his first two seasons here nor anything about Crosby. And really, not getting along with the new boss doesn't make you a thug.

I didn't say they were thugs, I said character issues. Having "low character" doesn't make you a thug as you put in your previous post. It is well known XW didn't work hard for AM or AG, regularly skipped classes to play video games. Crosby walked out of practice and quit on the team. Pierce is another player that didn't want to work or get better and had issues at the JC he transferred to. That's not just not getting along with the new coach, that says all I need to know about your character. And from what I hear, Landers wasn't a good character person his first 1.5 years, but really turned it around under AG.

[rollo]

Trey Landers is one of the most High Character players to ever wear a UD uniform. My kids have known him since HS - he attended many, many Oakwood dances - and he was a regular at many Oakwood get-togethers...when everyone else was drinking, he never touched a drop. He liked hanging out with us old people and talking about anything but himself.

That's why he is a permanent honorary member of the Royal Roundtable!

[cj]

Not to mention Trey had an older brother that was bigger than he was and by all appearances is high character as well and helped keep him in line.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by rollo Trey Landers is one of the most High Character players to ever wear a UD uniform. My kids have known him since HS - he attended many, many Oakwood dances - and he was a regular at many Oakwood get-togethers...when everyone else was drinking, he never touched a drop. He liked hanging out with us old people and talking about anything but himself. That's why he is a permanent honorary member of the Royal Roundtable!

I am just stating what I have heard from multiple people close to AM and his staff Trey's first year and Trey's own comments about having a sit down with AG midway through his SO year and changing his ways. Now maybe his issues were not buying in or taking coaching well, and not off the court issues, but I will stand by what I was told.

[Gazoo]

I had an employee once that was a bad hire. Young enough to expect some shenanigans, old enough that he should have known better. The thing is, the kid was really, really, really bright. He was charming and well liked. You WANTED to see this kid succeed.

But when I got him he was out of control. His professionalism was SO out of line it was stunning. Not get-off-my-lawn stuff, but stuff that disrupts the whole team.

So what do you do? Lay down the law like some tough-guy? That has implications for the next guy you try hire ("didn't I see this job posted 6 months ago?? What happened?!?!"), internal perceptions ("don't work for that guy, he will fire you in a heartbeat if you step out of line"), etc.

So you try to coach the person. You try to set boundaries. You see leaps forward as he seems to "get it" and then dumbfounding backsliding.

Imagine you're a coach. You have seriously conflicting priorities. You're emotionally invested; you want this kid to succeed. The university has expectations, both for performance as well as showing grace, as well as title IX, as well as perception issues with kicking a minority out of school. Parents have expectations. Donors have (conflicting) expectations.

All you tough guy types that say "the first time he skipped class he'd be gone" would never, ever make it. Judgement calls get made based on personal relationships, and sometimes the wrong decision is made. Sometimes the kid is earnestly trying and fails.

I'm not saying BG or AM or AG is always right. Sometimes they'll screw up and sometimes they're flat wrong. I'm saying it's a hard freaking job. Sometimes you bring in a bad apple that screws up the culture. Don't do it twice and build a pattern or else that is your culture.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by shocka43 There were a handful of posters that knew first hand of shenanigans that went on during the AM years. (For the record, there were a handful under the BG years as well). I am not going to rehash the past, but there are hundreds of posts during that era that spelled out things that happened, the lack of transparency by UD Police Department (due to the public records laws of that time that have since changed), and first hand accounts from people that had direct knowledge of incidents. Many of these were years ago and the sources and people move on from certain points of contact within and around a program. (which is good) I will say it again, Anthony Grant appears to be running a program the right way. College athletes will screw up. It's inevitable. It will probably happen under AG eventually, but it will most likely be handled in a different manner. There were many people that had ears in places they don't have ears now. I didn't dislike Archie for leaving. I thought he took chances with players that weren't of the standard that UD should have been recruiting and didn't fire players when they needed fired. His wife was also a complete train wreck and not representative of what a standard of conduct should be by someone tied to one of the highest levels of the University. The results were good under Archie and he gave the fans something the majority never experienced. With that, I always had a pill in my gut that knew if he were around longer, heat would have been on the program either internally or externally. You can only play with fire for so long. I am not going to classify players as a certain category, but there are differences in work ethic and attitudes versus those that had contact with the criminal justice system. I will also say that a lack of transparency by UD PD made things worse than better...all in the name of their interpretation of the Sunshine Law, FOIA. and Title. It wasn't a good look for UD and I am glad that is past us.

Well written and well worded. All UD Pride posters could take a lesson in respect, etiquette and diplomacy from you.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 I am just stating what I have heard from multiple people close to AM and his staff Trey's first year and Trey's own comments about having a sit down with AG midway through his SO year and changing his ways. Now maybe his issues were not buying in or taking coaching well, and not off the court issues, but I will stand by what I was told.

IMO you can be a high character person and still struggle with attitude and some bitterness, particularly as a competitor. Personally, I think referencing Trey as having character issues his first 1.5 years is a poor, misleading description.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by cj Not to mention Trey had an older brother that was bigger than he was and by all appearances is high character as well and helped keep him in line.

I saw Robert at a game last year. Not sure I have ever seen a set of biceps so big in my life. Greeted him with the standard O..H... which brought out a big grin and we chatted for a few minutes. Joked about my OSU bloodline and I asked him if he wanted my autograph which brought out more laughter. Seems like a great guy.

[flyerfanatic86]

We can't talk about the BG years without the saga of Des and Norm.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER IMO you can be a high character person and still struggle with attitude and some bitterness, particularly as a competitor. Personally, I think referencing Trey as having character issues his first 1.5 years is a poor, misleading description.

And in my opinion, struggling with attitude and bitterness is a character flaw.

[Fudd]

I am the highest character person I know......and it's not even close.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 And in my opinion, struggling with attitude and bitterness is a character flaw.

Character flaw? Sure. Low character? Agree to disagree.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan I saw Robert at a game last year. Not sure I have ever seen a set of biceps so big in my life. Greeted him with the standard O..H... which brought out a big grin and we chatted for a few minutes. Joked about my OSU bloodline and I asked him if he wanted my autograph which brought out more laughter. Seems like a great guy.

Umm, if you greeted him with "O..H..." and he didn't reply "..I..O.." you should've gotten the hint and left him alone

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Umm, if you greeted him with "O..H..." and he didn't reply "..I..O.." you should've gotten the hint and left him alone

The funny thing is, he initiated the conversation at that point. Either he knew how **** awesome of an American I am, or maybe he really did want to know which concession stand the smoked brisket nachos I was pigging out on came from, as well as my brew of choice.

[IAFlyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I had an employee once that was a bad hire. Young enough to expect some shenanigans, old enough that he should have known better. The thing is, the kid was really, really, really bright. He was charming and well liked. You WANTED to see this kid succeed. But when I got him he was out of control. His professionalism was SO out of line it was stunning. Not get-off-my-lawn stuff, but stuff that disrupts the whole team. So what do you do? Lay down the law like some tough-guy? That has implications for the next guy you try hire ("didn't I see this job posted 6 months ago?? What happened?!?!"), internal perceptions ("don't work for that guy, he will fire you in a heartbeat if you step out of line"), etc. So you try to coach the person. You try to set boundaries. You see leaps forward as he seems to "get it" and then dumbfounding backsliding. Imagine you're a coach. You have seriously conflicting priorities. You're emotionally invested; you want this kid to succeed. The university has expectations, both for performance as well as showing grace, as well as title IX, as well as perception issues with kicking a minority out of school. Parents have expectations. Donors have (conflicting) expectations. All you tough guy types that say "the first time he skipped class he'd be gone" would never, ever make it. Judgement calls get made based on personal relationships, and sometimes the wrong decision is made. Sometimes the kid is earnestly trying and fails. I'm not saying BG or AM or AG is always right. Sometimes they'll screw up and sometimes they're flat wrong. I'm saying it's a hard freaking job. Sometimes you bring in a bad apple that screws up the culture. Don't do it twice and build a pattern or else that is your culture.

THIS NAILS IT. I remember interviewing (past life) a really super bright guy that totally understood what my team need (IT-related) from a technical point of view. I had my lead techs involved in the process. I asked questions that would give me more of a "how will you interact with team" bent.

The techs were convinced that they needed this guy to complete the project on-time and properly. I was concerned that he was a prima donna and would cause more trouble that help.

We hired him. It turns out that he was even more arrogant and condescending that I would have thought possible. We started with coaching, and then moved to coaching him to his next job.

It is hard, and unpredictable.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by IAFlyer We hired him. It turns out that he was even more arrogant and condescending that I would have thought possible. We started with coaching, and then moved to coaching him to his next job. It is hard, and unpredictable.

I had to coach my guy into his next job too. Actually, the straw that broke the camel's back was when he approached me with a job offer from another company (which I encourage) and then told me he was the greatest thing since sliced bread so I better treat him like a king from now on (which I DIScourage). So I told him he should take the offer. He told me he didn't actually want the job. I informed him unemployment or the new job, his choice. You don't gotta go home but you gotta get on up outta here.

Mistakes get made. That was mine and nobody else's. I absolutely waited too long to let him go and paid a price for it. I always thought I could help him get better and should have cut bait sooner. I'm sure coaches feel the same way sometimes.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I had to coach my guy into his next job too. Actually, the straw that broke the camel's back was when he approached me with a job offer from another company (which I encourage) and then told me he was the greatest thing since sliced bread so I better treat him like a king from now on (which I DIScourage). So I told him he should take the offer. He told me he didn't actually want the job. I informed him unemployment or the new job, his choice. You don't gotta go home but you gotta get on up outta here. Mistakes get made. That was mine and nobody else's. I absolutely waited too long to let him go and paid a price for it. I always thought I could help him get better and should have cut bait sooner. I'm sure coaches feel the same way sometimes.

Nowadays, there are so many options to weed these types of things out during the screening/interviewing process. Not all companies leverage such tools, nor should they depend solely on the results/recommendations, but the "personality test" has been a beneficial tool in helping us analyze candidates and prospects.

They're not wrong very often. We've gone back a couple of years after the fact, both with exited employees as well as staff who've "made it" and stayed on.

I'd say that on staff that haven't "worked out", 90+% of the time, we can point to red flags in the test results that we "ignored", believing we could "fix" this that or the other or that some of the benefits outweighed the baggage.

[MrFlyerFanatic]

I started attending the Coach's Radio shows back in the days of OP at Harrigan's in Kettering.
OP was super personable. Occasionally, his wife would come to the shows. She was also very nice. Sometimes when his wife wasn't in attendance, OP would have a beverage with Larry and Bucky or with some fans after the show.
BG was personable, but also a little politician-like. He was more of the shake hands and kiss babies type. BG would work the room a bit before and after the show. He was also visible in the community with Secret Smiles, so his values were well known and he clearly invested in the community. BG's wife was also very nice every time that I had any interaction. She seemed to have blended into a fairly tight social circle.
AM was not comfortable in public. He would usually arrive as the intro music was starting and be out the door before Larry could say WHIO. The very first show, I went to the mic, welcomed Archie to Dayton, and asked Larry how he felt about having to train another first time head coach. The crowd laughed a bit. Archie didn't seem amused. In "Bigger Than Basketball," Larry refences a conversation where Archie referred to he and Bucky as his only real friends in Dayton. There was one particular show in January 2014 when the team was tanking. I think we were 1-4 in conference at the time. Off air, AM asked Larry something to the effect of, "Why do all these people keep coming to the show?" I don't know if he really didn't understand the culture or if he if he expected fans to bail on the team.
Enter AG. He's a people person. After the first time that I talked to him, I told MrsFF that if he wins games, people will be throwing their checkbooks at the University. Every event where he speaks will be an endowment builder. Also engaged in the community. He volunteers with Larry at the House of Bread. He did public service announcements during COVID. I think his youngest children attended Ascension school. A friend with children of similar age was working at a fish fry. She likes to tell the story of when Mrs. Grant walked in and asked where she could get an apron and started helping in the kitchen. Not out front where she would be seen. In the kitchen doing the dirty work. Not something the previous coach's wife was known for.

You have to wonder, how much do those skills impact coaching tenure? I was once told that the closer you are to the money, the more you get. I don't think that's too far from true when it comes to coaches and how they play with the whales.

[UD62]

Given the social and political climate that currently exists in the country, I do not envy those that have to make the hiring and firing decisions.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic I started attending the Coach's Radio shows back in the days of OP at Harrigan's in Kettering. OP was super personable. Occasionally, his wife would come to the shows. She was also very nice. Sometimes when his wife wasn't in attendance, OP would have a beverage with Larry and Bucky or with some fans after the show. BG was personable, but also a little politician-like. He was more of the shake hands and kiss babies type. BG would work the room a bit before and after the show. He was also visible in the community with Secret Smiles, so his values were well known and he clearly invested in the community. BG's wife was also very nice every time that I had any interaction. She seemed to have blended into a fairly tight social circle. AM was not comfortable in public. He would usually arrive as the intro music was starting and be out the door before Larry could say WHIO. The very first show, I went to the mic, welcomed Archie to Dayton, and asked Larry how he felt about having to train another first time head coach. The crowd laughed a bit. Archie didn't seem amused. In "Bigger Than Basketball," Larry refences a conversation where Archie referred to he and Bucky as his only real friends in Dayton. There was one particular show in January 2014 when the team was tanking. I think we were 1-4 in conference at the time. Off air, AM asked Larry something to the effect of, "Why do all these people keep coming to the show?" I don't know if he really didn't understand the culture or if he if he expected fans to bail on the team. Enter AG. He's a people person. After the first time that I talked to him, I told MrsFF that if he wins games, people will be throwing their checkbooks at the University. Every event where he speaks will be an endowment builder. Also engaged in the community. He volunteers with Larry at the House of Bread. He did public service announcements during COVID. I think his youngest children attended Ascension school. A friend with children of similar age was working at a fish fry. She likes to tell the story of when Mrs. Grant walked in and asked where she could get an apron and started helping in the kitchen. Not out front where she would be seen. In the kitchen doing the dirty work. Not something the previous coach's wife was known for. You have to wonder, how much do those skills impact coaching tenure? I was once told that the closer you are to the money, the more you get. I don't think that's too far from true when it comes to coaches and how they play with the whales.

The dynamics of all of this (coach and wife/family) are both interesting and very accurate, IMO.

I had the pleasure of meeting OP. My experience was similar.

Same for BG. He was polished, the type of polish that comes with experience and understanding the "other" parts of the job.

I only met Archie once, but did get the opportunity to have several conversations with his Dad over the years. He was an open, somewhat friendly gentleman.

Grant. This is strictly from observation, albeit in person observations, as I've never spoken with him or his family. But the word(s) I would use are extremely polished. The kind of extreme polish you only get with sincere and genuine qualities.

[Radar]

I pretty much agree with MrFF's breakdown of our last four coaches, at least from where I sit and my limited interactions, specifically with OP, BG and AM. AM and I happened to share barbers and I will say I did see a different side of him in a 2 chair shop in Kettering. He was polite and generous with his time, although he was never in one place too long unless it was home, Frericks, or the Arena. It was always "on to the next thing."

As for AG, I also attended his shows at Frickers and he would stay as long as the crowd did after the show. Pics, autographs, conversation...he accommodated everyone. And the crowds were HUGE. He doesn't shy away from the public, UD fans and in fact embraces it. His entire family is incredibly polite and very outgoing. Witnessing them in Maui and how they pretty much led the charge of the Flyer Faithful that week was memorable. There is no better ambassador for our program.

	Flyer Faithful FLYER FAITHFUL Best college basketball fans in the country. Knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and loyal. Help to create one of the toughest home courts in the nation at UD Arena. Over 12,000 fans a game put the Flyers in the Top-30 nationally in attendance. Fan spirit and support growing to other UD sports and athletic programs as well.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by cj Not to mention Trey had an older brother that was bigger than he was and by all appearances is high character as well and helped keep him in line.

And many know if it weren't for Robert, Trey may have been out the door when Archie left.

I spoke with Robert and he stated he met with CAG to discuss his "little brother" as he was the patriarch of the family after their fathers death. In more words than this...he told Trey he was staying at UD under CAG. This was a testament to CAG being a father figure to young men that could use it and also to the values that the Lander's boys have from their mother and support system.

I wish there were more stories like Trey's where he becomes one of the ideal representatives of the University of Dayton. The first time I met him as a freshman, I was met with a handshake and a "thank you sir" after I told him good game on the ramp leaving the Arena. It was at that time I had a feeling he was going to be a leader and successful at UD...which he was and still is.

[SeasonTicketFan]

I’ve met the coaches OP through AG. Each had a unique personality. Each was a good coach in different ways. They are all smart me with good basketball minds.

Bottom line. Coaches are paid to win. Yes, they must schmooze with the fans, but...

They are much more like-able when they win and much more unlike-able when they lose.

The old adage. Players are responsible for wins and coaches are always blamed for losses.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER Nowadays, there are so many options to weed these types of things out during the screening/interviewing process. Not all companies leverage such tools, nor should they depend solely on the results/recommendations, but the "personality test" has been a beneficial tool in helping us analyze candidates and prospects. They're not wrong very often. We've gone back a couple of years after the fact, both with exited employees as well as staff who've "made it" and stayed on. I'd say that on staff that haven't "worked out", 90+% of the time, we can point to red flags in the test results that we "ignored", believing we could "fix" this that or the other or that some of the benefits outweighed the baggage.

Personality tests have been proven to NOT work.

https://hbr.org/2014/08/the-problem-...sts-for-hiring

They're one of the single worst predictors of success in hiring.

[troublebrewin]

As mentioned AG is a great person and fits UD's fan base well (personality). At the women's A10 tourney last year (right before Covid) he went to the game with his wife and a kid. He sat up in the 200s and would take any picture with anyone including my 11 and 9 year old daughter, he didn't say no. I never saw AM at a women's game with his family.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Personality tests have been proven to NOT work. https://hbr.org/2014/08/the-problem-...sts-for-hiring They're one of the single worst predictors of success in hiring.

I hated those tests. I had experience with having to complete one (or 2) for a job and also saw them administered within an organization after I had been employed. I think they could be poorly written (depending on the slant the authors took) or they were administered poorly by people who didn't understand the results.

One company even sent me to a seminar to 'learn' all about the different personality traits that 'their test' was suppose to detect/uncover. Best thing that I got from that multi-day seminar was 3 days out of the office. The other thing I got out of that seminar was the people who were pushing this through out the organization should of been the first people taking the test and their future employment based on the results. Of course 'that' didn't happen.

[Fudd]

The personality tests are interesting, but people and the reasons for their behaviors are way more complex than those tests might reveal, IMO.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by troublebrewin As mentioned AG is a great person and fits UD's fan base well (personality). At the women's A10 tourney last year (right before Covid) he went to the game with his wife and a kid. He sat up in the 200s and would take any picture with anyone including my 11 and 9 year old daughter, he didn't say no. I never saw AM at a women's game with his family.

In a word that is what Anthony Grant IS. G E N U I N E

In a town like Dayton in a state like OHIO being GENUINE is what captures peoples attention and the people respond positively.

In NJ and NY, most times you gotta give the hard sell every day of the week except on Sunday when you gotta double down. (Not to be political here but look at Como et al).

I disagreed with one element of Sinatra's song, "If you can make it here (New York) you can make it anywhere", that attitude or personality may not work in the heart land. And that also means that what works in the heartland may get you lamblasted in the Big APPLE.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Community and personality are important, but coaches are paid to win basketball games.

BG and his wife were involved in the community. His wife especially supported some great causes. BG did not win enough A10 games and fans were unhappy.

AM was not in the community, but while he was going to the NCAA for consecutive years, fans were not concerned about his lack of community involvement.

AG is a great, quality individual. But, if he has more years like this year, no one will care if he is at a women's BB game.

Fans don't ask about players GPA and majors, because they don't care. UD has had several grad who had majors of General Studies. They want the players to win games. Look at the criticism on this board of players and coaches this year after going 29-2 last year! Try to find mentions of GPA, community involvement....

Bottom line for coaches is winning and consistently winning.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Fudd The personality tests are interesting, but people and the reasons for their behaviors are way more complex than those tests might reveal, IMO.

I thought the tests were usually good indicators of the personality but the question then is - what is the right personality for the position? And is there more than one that would work?

[DGO67]

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan Community and personality are important, but coaches are paid to win basketball games. BG and his wife were involved in the community. His wife especially supported some great causes. BG did not win enough A10 games and fans were unhappy. AM was not in the community, but while he was going to the NCAA for consecutive years, fans were not concerned about his lack of community involvement. AG is a great, quality individual. But, if he has more years like this year, no one will care if he is at a women's BB game. Fans don't ask about players GPA and majors, because they don't care. UD has had several grad who had majors of General Studies. They want the players to win games. Look at the criticism on this board of players and coaches this year after going 29-2 last year! Try to find mentions of GPA, community involvement.... Bottom line for coaches is winning and consistently winning.

But, also, coaches are rated on what they produce with the talent they have.
Expectations are very high if you have a bunch of three and four stars...and don't make the dance (eg. Archie M).
Fans can tell if coaches get in the way of success...that's one of the attractions of these boards...coaching from the stands.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Personality tests have been proven to NOT work. https://hbr.org/2014/08/the-problem-...sts-for-hiring They're one of the single worst predictors of success in hiring.

The data we've seen in the 10/12 years we've been using them suggests differently. They're not perfect, but have proven mostly accurate.

And keep in mind that I suggested that we use them a tool, but not as "gospel".