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  #101  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:24 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Facts...

Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post

.....There are a ton of big time programs in the SEC/ACC that have absolutely NO seat license and their gameday ticket price is lower than UD's.
I seriously doubt that. There may be no seat "license"; but there are other ways...better ways... to link seating to donor status. I have explained quite a few times UConn's system. No seat license.....all TX prices are the same no matter where you sit ($30)....BUT, whether or not you can even get TX and where you sit are determined by accumulated points based on giving over time.

No school with a big time program is going to decouple seating from donation level. That would make no sense whatsoever....not to mention being unfair.

In an economically depressed area like Dayton our U has done a splendid job balancing things...witness the outstanding attendance. There is no reason to suppose that UD will not handle this issue wisely and fairly....with appreciation for the Faithful.
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  #102  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I seriously doubt that. There may be no seat "license"; but there are other ways...better ways... to link seating to donor status. I have explained quite a few times UConn's system. No seat license.....all TX prices are the same no matter where you sit ($30)....BUT, whether or not you can even get TX and where you sit are determined by accumulated points based on giving over time.

No school with a big time program is going to decouple seating from donation level. That would make no sense whatsoever....not to mention being unfair.

In an economically depressed area like Dayton our U has done a splendid job balancing things...witness the outstanding attendance. There is no reason to suppose that UD will not handle this issue wisely and fairly....with appreciation for the Faithful.
I specifically stated "no seat license". I never said that status wasn't achieved by lifetime giving. That is another story and I have no problem with that. I will also say that my family's lifetime giving isn't representative of their seat location, as with others that I know. Some better, some worse. UD's lifetime giving determines priority on Flight Deck access...and some other benefits with invites to events, etc...C&S Fund gets you the extras as well...

The bottom line is that the survey indicated exactly what the mindset is...gauging how much is too much in terms of additional seat license.

Many organizations don't have revolving seat licenses. It is a one time fee that can be spread out over a few years and isn't adjusted every 5 years. tOSU football requires a donation equal to or above a certain amount to secure seats. I get that...but OSU football is a totally different animal that UD A10 hoops. Sorry, but it isn't ACC/SEC hoops and isn't comparable to B10 FB. The Bengals have a one time fee. It doesn't revolve like UD hoops, as the current seating plan is good through 2017.

Don't make your everyday STH pay premium prices for non-premium benefits. Concessions don't really benefit me. They benefit those that profit from more faces in front of registers. My wait in line for a beverage or snack isn't worth double the seat license. Choke points with pedestrian flow, isn't worth double the seat license. You know as well as I do, that those improvements will make UD Arena more appealing to the tournament committee, that suite/lodge improvements will not be seen by the average STH, etc. The average STH will not get a tangible benefit equal to their potential license increase. If you want the luxury items, have those that will be using the luxury items absorb the cost.

Granted, I would much rather see a renovated UD Arena than a new facility. But you have to look at the per seat cost including ticket price and seat license. STH's pay 10-90 bucks per seat now..double that on top of your ticket price. Here are the current license fees per season...

http://daytonflyers.com/documents/20...sp2.pdf?id=178


Now...what I would be for is an seat license for ALL STH's. Why should the lower bowl subsidize the amenities that everyone seated in the 300's and 400's benefits from as well? If you want true fairness, have the license as a guaranteed right for you to purchase your ST's, not just a premium fee for those in the lower bowl. True fairness would be a SL fee for the 300 and 400 people as well. They will benefit from the concessions and improvements just as the lower bowl folks.

Last edited by shocka43; 01-26-2016 at 10:58 AM..
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  #103  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:58 AM
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I really don't get the hysteria over the pricing. I cannot imagine UD pricing its fans out of the Arena. Not going to happen. Those that can afford the Club and Box seats will be paying a lot for them. If you took the survey, you would see that if you said you "would not" or "probably would not" pay a certain level of a seat license for a particular seat - the survey would ask you - would you pay "this" - being a lower amount. They are working hard to judge the demand for all of this. After they do their due diligence, I am certain that they will make the most prudent decisions.

Let's not get all caught up in Class Warfare, and the Money Talks crap until we see the final proposal. What they decide upon is all that matters.

This should be and is a great time to be a Flyer Fan - my advice is to just enjoy the ride....
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  #104  
Old 01-26-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
I really don't get the hysteria over the pricing. I cannot imagine UD pricing its fans out of the Arena. Not going to happen. Those that can afford the Club and Box seats will be paying a lot for them. If you took the survey, you would see that if you said you "would not" or "probably would not" pay a certain level of a seat license for a particular seat - the survey would ask you - would you pay "this" - being a lower amount. They are working hard to judge the demand for all of this. After they do their due diligence, I am certain that they will make the most prudent decisions
The only way to price people out of the arena would be to see a decline in renewal. That won't happen. I think the results of that survey will determine how bold they can get with the increases. With many corporate owned seats, the results may be interesting.
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  #105  
Old 01-26-2016, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
The only way to price people out of the arena would be to see a decline in renewal. That won't happen.
It probably won't happen with Archie. It could happen with his replacement. During the JOB years many people let go of their season tickets. If the price goes up and the product quality goes down, there could be a more precipitous drop off.
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  #106  
Old 01-26-2016, 11:08 AM
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Who pays for what?

Shocka, the fact that you don't care about concessions et al really shouldn't be an issue. Families without children still pay for schools, people that don't have cars still pay for roads, etc.

The Faithful all benefit, albeit indirectly, from an improved Arena. It's up to UD to continue its years long policy of affordability...but, given an affordable cost structure, common sense and simple fairness are consistent with a policy that "the more you give, the better your seats".
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  #107  
Old 01-26-2016, 11:11 AM
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As we all know, the individual financial circumstances of fans vary, sometimes by quite a bit. UD should, IMHO, finance any expansion/renovation plans with a minimal financial impact on long-term Flyer fans who have supported the school over the years through thick and thin. The UD fan base, regardless of financial circumstance, is an asset that the Administration should cherish and not take for granted. A substantial across the board increase in seat licensing fees should be avoided based on the disparate impact it is likely to have on a wide swath of the Flyer Faithful. While some increase in ticket prices and licensing fees should be expected annually or bi-annually to keep pace with inflation and cover any rise in operational costs, ticket prices should not be viewed as a primary means to finance major capital improvements.

Not having seen the proposal, I can only assume the Athletic Department did not seek the opinion of Alums outside the immediate area, but it should. IMHO, many Alums outside the Dayton area would be willing to provide additional financial support for the University's effort to upgrade the Arena and keep it a showplace for college BB.
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  #108  
Old 01-26-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
As we all know, the individual financial circumstances of fans vary, sometimes by quite a bit. UD should, IMHO, finance any expansion/renovation plans with a minimal financial impact on long-term Flyer fans who have supported the school over the years through thick and thin. The UD fan base, regardless of financial circumstance, is an asset that the Administration should cherish and not take for granted. A substantial across the board increase in seat licensing fees should be avoided based on the disparate impact it is likely to have on a wide swath of the Flyer Faithful. While some increase in ticket prices and licensing fees should be expected annually or bi-annually to keep pace with inflation and cover any rise in operational costs, ticket prices should not be viewed as a primary means to finance major capital improvements.

Not having seen the proposal, I can only assume the Athletic Department did not seek the opinion of Alums outside the immediate area, but it should. IMHO, many Alums outside the Dayton area would be willing to provide additional financial support for the University's effort to upgrade the Arena and keep it a showplace for college BB.
Trust me, I do not want to sound flippant - but none of that really matters. All that matters is what is next. I said several years ago when UD did not make the cut in the NBE, that it really did not matter, all that matters is what is next. We had to win. Winning takes care of a lot of things.

I think the issue underlying all of this is Archie Miller. UD has showed Archie great loyalty by extending him before he became a hot coach - extending him when he and the team were struggling a bit. After the E8 run, in my opinion, everything UD has done is to keep AM for the long haul. We have gone first class with everything. From the Chartered Away game flights to the new locker rooms to the upgraded Cronin Center, to the new Work out facilities. Our facilities are extremely high end. The next move is to upgrade the Arena. All of these things increase UD's chances of becoming Gonzaga, Butler or Xavier. That is the goal. A national basketball program. If we can do that, there is no need for Archie to ever, ever go anywhere else. That, in my opinion, is what is going on right now.

The University will do its best to thread the financial needle. But if we want to be what we have always thought we could and should be - it will cost most, but not all, a little more. But think what the payoff will be.....

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  #109  
Old 01-26-2016, 12:38 PM
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Not so...

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
....Not having seen the proposal, I can only assume the Athletic Department did not seek the opinion of Alums outside the immediate area, but it should. IMHO, many Alums outside the Dayton area would be willing to provide additional financial support....
UD sought the opinion of everyone it has an e-mail connection with....not just locals. Others commenting on this thread have mentioned that they live many states away from Dayton and never attend games.
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  #110  
Old 01-26-2016, 01:06 PM
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Let's get down to the nitty gritty -

We all would like to see the arena upgraded or replaced. It all comes down to money and how much it would cost.

The arena was originally built using 30 year $4,000,000 of tax exempt Ohio State Higher Education Facility Bonds - issued in 1968 and paid off in 1998. UD has financed many projects this way - including many of the dorm projects. We would assume that the same financing method would be used for any arena upgrades or replacements.

So - What would the renovations cost? I have no idea, but let me throw out a number - $50,000,000. Financing that would cost about $3,500,000 per year - assuming 20 year notes (30 year is probably too long) and 3.75% to 4.00% coupon rates.

It is all a matter of where does the money come from. Only lower arena has seat license - maybe 6,000 of them (forget student seats)? You need to get an average of $600 increase oer seat license to get a little over $3.500,000. High rollers get soaked more, low rollers get soaked less. If the renovations cost more the price goes up.

If you can generate additional revenue from other sources - advertising, suites, concessions, parking, additional events, more seats, etc) you can cut back on seat license increase but the needed revenue number does not change.

It is easy to play with the numbers. A new $250,000,000 arena (just an estimate) would need $17,500,000 per year to service the debt.

UD only owns the land under the arena, I do not think they own the parking lots but must maintain them in return for the parking revenue. I would hope any renovations and/or replacement would also get significant city infrastructure investment. Would love to see expanding the parking lots north to Stewart and allow more ingress and egress locations. That might require eminent domain issues.

It is all a matter of finding the sweet spot where the cost and revenue lines cross each other. It would seem that was one of the main purposes of the survey.
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  #111  
Old 01-26-2016, 01:23 PM
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I agree it would be ridiculous to double the Seat License Fees, but the survey gave three levels of possible increases. As Earl mentioned, we were given the opportunity to indicate which level we would be willing to pay. I would be surprised if the fees increase by any amount higher than the lowest increase listed. If they do there will be a lot of ticked off people (including me).
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  #112  
Old 01-26-2016, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
...
UD only owns the land under the arena, I do not think they own the parking lots but must maintain them in return for the parking revenue......
"somewhere" in the depths of my feeble brain I seem to recall reading that the land the arena is built on belongs to the city of Dayton, and that UD has a 99 year lease on it.....
No idea of that s factual, and even less of an idea why that silly bit of information has stayed in what is left on my memory....
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  #113  
Old 01-26-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
"somewhere" in the depths of my feeble brain I seem to recall reading that the land the arena is built on belongs to the city of Dayton, and that UD has a 99 year lease on it.....
No idea of that s factual, and even less of an idea why that silly bit of information has stayed in what is left on my memory....
GO FLYERS!
Nope - UD owns the land under the arena - and pays the assessments, but there are no taxes on the arena.

http://www.mcrealestate.org/Datalets...sIndex=0&idx=1

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  #114  
Old 01-26-2016, 02:11 PM
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I am leery of this "survey". After the first few generic questions it seemed like every question concerned how much more are you willing to pay for this or how much more are you willing to pay for that.

Sorry folks it is time to get a name for the Arena. Just make sure that it is a name that identifies with the city. Naming rights would probably be worth a half million to a million a year.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:33 PM
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Dyer, Garofalo, Mann & Schultz Arena.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Dyer, Garofalo, Mann & Schultz Arena.
Cassano's bid will be larger and it will be called "294-KING Arena". Yes, for your viewing enjoyment they will squeeze the arena's sight lines to half size just like their sponsored game broadcasts.
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  #117  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
Cassano's bid will be larger and it will be called "294-KING Arena".
Hmmmm....sounds vaguely familiar...
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  #118  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
Cassano's bid will be larger and it will be called "294-KING Arena".
Could also be the 1800-GOT-JUNK arena...
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  #119  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:28 PM
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This is a long story but they changed the seating selection process at tOSU for 2016 and it is being explained as part of what other institutions and conferences have already done. However the references to increased donations was not subtle and highlighted in bold:



Football Seat and Ticket Information for tOSU has changed for 2016 and is dependent upon one of the following NEW ways to have the best seats or the worst seats in the stadium based upon a donor priority point ranking:

QUESTION What is my donor priority point ranking and how can I improve my ranking?
ANSWER ... The best way to improve your points is to make a contribution to the Buckeye Club or the President’s Club by Dec. 31, 2015.
Current Gift x 4% (from Jan. 1, 2015 – Dec. 31, 2015)
Past Gift(s) x 2% (Prior to Jan.1, 2015)
Irrevocable Gift x 1% (Sum of face values)*
Revocable Gift x 0.5% (Sum of face values)**
*(Annuities and trusts established through the University)
**(Annuities and trusts held outside the University, bequests and insurance for donors 65 years of age and older)
Note: Payments for season tickets and parking are not
considered gifts!


QUESTION How can I improve my rank and position myself to choose the best available seat location?
ANSWER You may improve your rank by increasing your Buckeye Club and/or President’s Club donation prior to Dec. 31, 2015. Your priority point ranking as of Dec. 31, 2015 will determine the order in which you will choose your seats during the 2016 seat selection process. Final priority is based on total points and not membership level.

As you can imagine the clamor for FB tickets at tOSu is large enough that anyone not happy with increasing the donation to keep or retain seats or those wanting to gain a better seat doesn't bother the FB one bit as they will be someone standing in line for just the chance to get premium seats or any seats.

So you see as long as the product is in demand ... you can do pretty much whatever it takes to entice $$$$$ from you.
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  #120  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Shocka, the fact that you don't care about concessions et al really shouldn't be an issue. Families without children still pay for schools, people that don't have cars still pay for roads, etc.

The Faithful all benefit, albeit indirectly, from an improved Arena. It's up to UD to continue its years long policy of affordability...but, given an affordable cost structure, common sense and simple fairness are consistent with a policy that "the more you give, the better your seats".
You are proving my point...families with tickets in the 300-400 need to pay their share. Don't strictly piggyback off of those in the lower bowl with (typically) more years and money devoted to a seat location. Tag every STH with a seat license appropriate for the location. Concessions aren't important to ME...a basketball product is. Yes, I will benefit, and I am committed to a seat license this year, just as every other year. I have no problem paying a seat license, but I am also for expanding that seat license to every STH that benefits from the improvements. Hit the 4-5k seats with a 100-200 dollar seat license in the 300-400. There's your 500k-1mil to go towards the cause.

I agree that the more you give, the better your seats...but the lower bowl doesn't need to be subsidizing those in the 300-400's that are getting the same facility experience.
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  #121  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:43 PM
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True, but,..

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
This is a long story but they changed the seating selection process at tOSU for 2016 and it is being explained as part of what other institutions and conferences have already done. However the references to increased donations was not subtle and highlighted in bold:



Football Seat and Ticket Information for tOSU has changed for 2016 and is dependent upon one of the following NEW ways to have the best seats or the worst seats in the stadium based upon a donor priority point ranking:

QUESTION What is my donor priority point ranking and how can I improve my ranking?
ANSWER ... The best way to improve your points is to make a contribution to the Buckeye Club or the President’s Club by Dec. 31, 2015.
Current Gift x 4% (from Jan. 1, 2015 – Dec. 31, 2015)
Past Gift(s) x 2% (Prior to Jan.1, 2015)
Irrevocable Gift x 1% (Sum of face values)*
Revocable Gift x 0.5% (Sum of face values)**
*(Annuities and trusts established through the University)
**(Annuities and trusts held outside the University, bequests and insurance for donors 65 years of age and older)
Note: Payments for season tickets and parking are not
considered gifts!


QUESTION How can I improve my rank and position myself to choose the best available seat location?
ANSWER You may improve your rank by increasing your Buckeye Club and/or President’s Club donation prior to Dec. 31, 2015. Your priority point ranking as of Dec. 31, 2015 will determine the order in which you will choose your seats during the 2016 seat selection process. Final priority is based on total points and not membership level.

As you can imagine the clamor for FB tickets at tOSu is large enough that anyone not happy with increasing the donation to keep or retain seats or those wanting to gain a better seat doesn't bother the FB one bit as they will be someone standing in line for just the chance to get premium seats or any seats.

So you see as long as the product is in demand ... you can do pretty much whatever it takes to entice $$$$$ from you.
While true for tOSU, ND and a few others, there have been quite a few articles recently lamenting the declining attendance even at top SEC schools, e.g., Bama. And for BB Duke has reduced the size of its student section.

Reasons are not well understood. One reason that always comes to my mind is the change in TV viewing. For sure the color is there when you attend in person. But TV coverage these days is magnificent. While watching the Pats and Broncos Sunday, more than once it occurred to me that I was seeing things that not a single person at the stadium saw. Indeed, I recall reading that at the Cowboys stadium if you watch the crowd you'll see that most people are watching the gigantic video screen rather than the action on the field.

Whether that's a factor affecting FB attendance or not, TV coverage is sensational and weather is not a factor.

As for our Flyers, attendance is teriffic.....only 2000 attended the FU game at Rose Hill Gym. But think of the competition for people's attention in big cities. Dayton doesn't have that. Going to a Flyers game is a pretty big deal in Dayton and there is little or no competition. UD's 12,000+ average is among the best in the nation. But, far more telling, in my opinion, is that UD averaged about 9000 during the darkest days of the O'Brien era. Most schools would be thrilled to have 9000 in the seats.

Last edited by UACFlyer; 01-26-2016 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
You are proving my point...families with tickets in the 300-400 need to pay their share. Don't strictly piggyback off of those in the lower bowl with (typically) more years and money devoted to a seat location. Tag every STH with a seat license appropriate for the location. Concessions aren't important to ME...a basketball product is. Yes, I will benefit, and I am committed to a seat license this year, just as every other year. I have no problem paying a seat license, but I am also for expanding that seat license to every STH that benefits from the improvements. Hit the 4-5k seats with a 100-200 dollar seat license in the 300-400. There's your 500k-1mil to go towards the cause.

I agree that the more you give, the better your seats...but the lower bowl doesn't need to be subsidizing those in the 300-400's that are getting the same facility experience.
Expanding the seat license to the 300-400 level season tickets holders could backfire in my opinion. People with those seats may have them simply because they are affordable and because there is no seat license fee.

I have two season tickets in the 400's because I have to drive two hours one way to come to UD games. I usually am able to make 6 to 8 games a year. The cost of those two seats is low enough that I don't feel obligated to go to games if I can't make it for whatever reason. Tacking on another $100-200 for each seat would most likely lead to me not renewing.
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  #123  
Old 01-26-2016, 04:19 PM
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While in the process of raising 5 children, $400 to $500 for 2 season tickets to Flyers games in the 300 or 400 section was just not financially possible. Lower bowl was (and still is) a pipe dream.
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  #124  
Old 01-26-2016, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But, far more telling, in my opinion, is that UD averaged about 9000 during the darkest days of the O'Brien era. Most schools would be thrilled to have 9000 in the seats.
Just for the record, the lowest average attendance during the O'Brien era was 10,868. That is why we are called the "Faithful."
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  #125  
Old 01-26-2016, 05:32 PM
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If they go toward a concept of adding some loge or club seating around the present concourse (between the lower and upper bowl) and the loge areas are 6-8 seat capacity with some 'catering service' thrown in, they should charge a premium per seat per game plus the seat licence fee for the 'grand experience'. I think most would not have an issue with that.

They should also just place additional 'standard seats' that are like the lower bowl season tic seats for those who may want to move from a 300-400 level seat to a seat within the filled in concourse area.

I think that if you make the loge or club seats the next 'perk level' up from the 'standard lower bowl season ticket cost' (mind you, not saying it is inexpensive now) you charge for the up-level perk for those willing to move on up and maintain some degree of financial conservatism when you try to raise the costs for the lower bowl seat locations.

But based upon my previous post concerning the U of M center they spent upwards of $50M just on their second phase reno & expansion, (no small change for UD btw), Michigan has many more wealthy alum and benefactors then UD can conjure up.
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  #126  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Expanding the seat license to the 300-400 level season tickets holders could backfire in my opinion. People with those seats may have them simply because they are affordable and because there is no seat license fee.

I have two season tickets in the 400's because I have to drive two hours one way to come to UD games. I usually am able to make 6 to 8 games a year. The cost of those two seats is low enough that I don't feel obligated to go to games if I can't make it for whatever reason. Tacking on another $100-200 for each seat would most likely lead to me not renewing.
Why is is acceptable to pass that cost on to those same people making those same sacrifices in the lower bowl? People in the lower bowl are also raising kids, etc...possibly making other financial sacrifices to afford double the ticket cost.

There are just as many people to fill the 300-400 seats that will pay an extra 100 bucks a ticket per season. And it doesn't matter what the prices are, if UD continues to put a good basketball product on the floor, there will be consumers.

Here is another solution...no seat license but UD increases your ticket price by 5 bucks a game...same revenue...different avenue... but then you don't get the tax break...

I am about fairness throughout the whole process. I am not fond of providing for those who refuse to do their part or expect others to do it for them.

I am willing to bet some lower bowl folks would reconsider if their license potentially doubled. People need to look at the per game cost. Not the lump sum. I don't even know what an individual ticket price is, I just pay the bill. If you double a SL in the lower bowl, you have increased what is currently 40-100 bucks per seat per game based on SL to 70-150+ per game per seat. I don't know what planet some people are on, but even if you lowball those numbers, one would think someone is nuts to pay 70-100 bucks per seat per game to watch A10 basketball. Sorry, but the realities of being in the A10 with A10 home OOC necessary scheduling and conference games, doesn't warrant that type of per game cost for some.

There are plenty of ways of commercial sponsors that don't involve renaming the Arena that can offset the cost. There are businesses that would drop many of thousands of dollars to have a lounge named after them with the inclusion of a box. PNC and Pepsi aren't chumps...neither is Time Warner, etc...

Don't get me wrong, I am all for upgrades to keep the Arena fresh and desirable to those who matter, but simply don't hammer the STH's for a sizeable SL increase.
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  #127  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:07 PM
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Speaking for myself, as someone who recently moved from the 200 to the 300, we would be willing to make a 1 time, 100% deductible donation, but to make it as part of our cost of tickets every year would probably count us out. If we donate what we can afford, that's a big difference than some arbitrary amount assigned to our seats. And before you say no one will make a voluntary donation, we've done it before, so don't try to sound off about your mandatory donations.
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:19 PM
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Interesting discussion, but....

For us non-locals it's a bit hard to appreciate the STH costs that are currently absorbed. Will someone kindly provide the seat license cost and the ticket price for lower bowl seats, for example, i.e., good seats in the 100 section. Also, are the license and TX prices the same everywhere in the 100s...or are they higher between the foul lines than near the ends and behind the baskets.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
For us non-locals it's a bit hard to appreciate the STH costs that are currently absorbed. Will someone kindly provide the seat license cost and the ticket price for lower bowl seats, for example, i.e., good seats in the 100 section. Also, are the license and TX prices the same everywhere in the 100s...or are they higher between the foul lines than near the ends and behind the baskets.

Thanks in advance.
http://www.daytonflyers.com/document...sp2.pdf?id=178
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  #130  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:30 PM
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I'll pay $1000 to support UD athletics...but for $2000 I'm taking that money and heading to tOSU for some serious football.
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Why is is acceptable to pass that cost on to those same people making those same sacrifices in the lower bowl? People in the lower bowl are also raising kids, etc...possibly making other financial sacrifices to afford double the ticket cost.

There are just as many people to fill the 300-400 seats that will pay an extra 100 bucks a ticket per season. And it doesn't matter what the prices are, if UD continues to put a good basketball product on the floor, there will be consumers.

Here is another solution...no seat license but UD increases your ticket price by 5 bucks a game...same revenue...different avenue... but then you don't get the tax break...

I am about fairness throughout the whole process. I am not fond of providing for those who refuse to do their part or expect others to do it for them.

I am willing to bet some lower bowl folks would reconsider if their license potentially doubled. People need to look at the per game cost. Not the lump sum. I don't even know what an individual ticket price is, I just pay the bill. If you double a SL in the lower bowl, you have increased what is currently 40-100 bucks per seat per game based on SL to 70-150+ per game per seat. I don't know what planet some people are on, but even if you lowball those numbers, one would think someone is nuts to pay 70-100 bucks per seat per game to watch A10 basketball. Sorry, but the realities of being in the A10 with A10 home OOC necessary scheduling and conference games, doesn't warrant that type of per game cost for some.

There are plenty of ways of commercial sponsors that don't involve renaming the Arena that can offset the cost. There are businesses that would drop many of thousands of dollars to have a lounge named after them with the inclusion of a box. PNC and Pepsi aren't chumps...neither is Time Warner, etc...

Don't get me wrong, I am all for upgrades to keep the Arena fresh and desirable to those who matter, but simply don't hammer the STH's for a sizeable SL increase.
You keep on and on about this, move your tail to the 300 or 400 if you don't want to pay the fee. I am in the 400 and have been since '85, if the seats go up in price so be it. I don't care if I can go to the Flight Deck,like you. If they want a one time donation fine.
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  #132  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 View Post
You keep on and on about this, move your tail to the 300 or 400 if you don't want to pay the fee. I am in the 400 and have been since '85, if the seats go up in price so be it. I don't care if I can go to the Flight Deck,like you. If they want a one time donation fine.
Weird...never said anything about the Flight Deck...nice straw man...as I don't step foot in it. I go to watch hoops and see other friends and family dedicated to UD and UD basketball.

Maybe that's whats wrong with this world...sure I want to have all the improvements...but don't want to pay a nickle towards them and tell the others who do pay to suck it up and deal with it...

Heaven forbid anyone mentions others should pay their dues...
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  #133  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:56 PM
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OK, that's helpful....

From the seating diagram it looks as if seats in Secs 104, 105, 112 and 113 are pretty good seats. The license is $1500 annually. At UConn such seats would cost $5000 annually and you would have had to be making that payment essentially forever. Also, the per game TX price is $30.

Thus, from my perspective very good seats for a UD game are cheap....a bargain.

Indeed, "perspective" would be useful in this discussion. How much would those seats cost at Xavier, UC, tOSU and Butler? Seems to me, that's what you've got to know. If an adult movie ticket cost $10 in Cincinnati, Columbus or Indianapolis, it's unrealistic to expect it to cost $5 in Dayton. The economic climate in the nearby cities mentioned is similar to that of Dayton...and the teams in those cities are top tier....and they draw well.

No one wants to see the price of anything go up. Nonetheless, UD fans may be a bit spoiled..I say "may be"...I'm not at all sure. Seems useful to know how much the fans of nearby peer BB schools are paying in order to know whether UD's proposed increases are fair and reasonable. Maybe even with a substantial increase Arena games still would be a bargain compared to others I've mentioned...maybe not.

So, perhaps evaluation of proposed increases should be based on comparative costs elsewhere rather than on present costs at UD. Just a suggestion.
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  #134  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:02 PM
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I'm fine with the Arena as it is, I don't think there is a thing they could do to the Arena to improve the experience as far as I'm concerned. (With the possible exception of wifi, which is a want not a need.) We would go for increasing ticket prices a couple 5 bucks per game and/or asking for voluntary 1 time donations. That is not asking someone else to pay for me.
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  #135  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Weird...never said anything about the Flight Deck...nice straw man...as I don't step foot in it. I go to watch hoops and see other friends and family dedicated to UD and UD basketball.

Maybe that's whats wrong with this world...sure I want to have all the improvements...but don't want to pay a nickle towards them and tell the others who do pay to suck it up and deal with it...

Heaven forbid anyone mentions others should pay their dues...
I don't know how long , you had your tickets. When the arena was built the people in the lower arena payed a one time donation of 1000 dollars and got to keep those seats for 20 years. Just paying for the price of the seats. Then Kessel came on board, that changed for the people in the lower bowl area. This is just a survey, if the university needs the money for the renovations. They should go for sponsorships from certain companies, if it means the renaming of the arena .

Last edited by Atlantic 10; 01-26-2016 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:28 PM
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UAC, Xavier is raising their license fees and sort of revamping their policy regarding your spot in the pecking order in terms of access to better seats, friends have told me this, and I have already heard some complaints about this. Not sure if ticket prices are going up. I doubt that UC can raise prices/license fees much, their attendance is way down since Huggins was let go. Not even sure if UC has license fees.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:40 PM
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If we want to have a first class team to represent our first class university, then we need first class facilities. These types of facilities and everything that go along with a top-25 team don't come cheap. One price we have to pay for success is to support a facility worthy of a national powerhouse. You can't buy fine wine on a beer budget.
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:13 PM
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Today Secs 104, 105, 112 and 113 are $1,500 seat license per seat per year.
This doesn't count for the cost of the tickets.

Obviously if they double the seat license it would be $6,000 for 2 seats, per year, without the price of tickets. If so count me out.
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by marco red eagle View Post
Today Secs 104, 105, 112 and 113 are $1,500 seat license per seat per year.
This doesn't count for the cost of the tickets.

Obviously if they double the seat license it would be $6,000 for 2 seats, per year, without the price of tickets. If so count me out.
What if they go from $1500 to $2000. What would you think of that?

I think that question was part of the survey.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 View Post
I don't know how long , you had your tickets. When the arena was built the people in the lower arena payed a one time donation of 1000 dollars and got to keep those seats for 20 years. Just paying for the price of the seats. Then Kessel came on board, that changed for the people in the lower bowl area. This is just a survey, if the university needs the money for the renovations. They should go for sponsorships from certain companies, if it means the renaming of the arena .
Don't disagree. I remember the backlash when the premium ticket pricing plans were laid out years ago. 4 tickets in the lower bowl jumped significantly...

UAC...you make good points in that we do get a decent product for the price paid. Perspective is needed, but this isn't UConn...This isn't X, tOSU, etc...we may be doing well and had some tournament success...but as a program, we aren't historically in the same boat as them. Do you honestly think that the last few years calls for the same pricing plan as the typically superior basketball schools within a 2-3 hour drive? Sorry, but that dog only hunts if you are trying to articulate a blanket increase versus one based on a historical trend of putting tOSU and X teams on the floor for a decade. This also isn't a major market such as ACC/SEC country. UD gets the attendance they do because it is rather affordable and needs to stay that way. Pro football has a habit of it, Cincy to be exact. As soon as they started their playoff appearance run, it was the perfect time for the Brown's to jack ticket prices up...because in his eyes he put a winning product on the field for the Cincy taxpayers. While this is definitely the necessary time for UD to make improvements, it is also a good strategic time given what AM has done with the program. No arguments there from a business standpoint. But if/when some down years come along, the U has to be ready for that as you aren't going to sell out like they are now.

A10..you make a good point that I totally agree with. Naming rights are huge and if internal improvements are made the proper way, naming rights can be purchased. I don't know how long TW FD rights are in place, but naming rights can take care of a good portion of the bills. Non of us would strive to see a commercial name on the side of the Arena, but unfortunately that is what makes the world go around these days with universities that don't have other large sports to pay the bills. Given the business climate in Dayton, other than banks or hospitals...we don't have the likes of KFC, Cintas, etc, that may be willing to fork out the dough. Maybe Clay Mathile UD Arena?

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Old 01-27-2016, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
What if they go from $1500 to $2000. What would you think of that?

I think that question was part of the survey.
500 X 5 = $2500 per seat for a 5 year period.

So essentially, a person in those sections is paying 5 grand more over 5 years for 2 seats....not including price of tickets, parking pass, and the current SL of 7100-7500. (Depending on how paid)
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Given the business climate in Dayton, other than banks or hospitals...we don't have the likes of KFC, Cintas, etc, that may be willing to fork out the dough. Maybe Clay Mathile UD Arena?
I'm thinking, with UD's partnership with GE, how about "GE Pavilion @ UD Arena"
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  #143  
Old 01-27-2016, 08:18 AM
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FWIW, my tOSU son is in the marching band and men's basketball pep band. Over Oakwood's winter break in February we decided to pack up the remaining heirs and go to the Michigan basketball game and see him. So last night I get on the OSU basketball ticket website, find 4 seats together in the 2nd deck just off mid-court, sent them to my cart and for a pedestrian $1328 me, the Queen and the Duke and Princess of RolloWood can attend 1 game.

1.

We'll probably have Frederick pack some PB&Js for the game to save another $125.
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:33 AM
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If I win the Powerball, we can call it Figstats Arena!
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  #145  
Old 01-27-2016, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, my tOSU son is in the marching band and men's basketball pep band. Over Oakwood's winter break in February we decided to pack up the remaining heirs and go to the Michigan basketball game and see him. So last night I get on the OSU basketball ticket website, find 4 seats together in the 2nd deck just off mid-court, sent them to my cart and for a pedestrian $1328 me, the Queen and the Duke and Princess of RolloWood can attend 1 game.

1.

We'll probably have Frederick pack some PB&Js for the game to save another $125.
That seems high. Did you get these off of StubHub?
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:56 AM
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*with or without the powerball

Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
If I win the Powerball, we can call it Figstats Arena!
I can - and will - outbid you*.

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
That seems high. Did you get these off of StubHub?
Not sure...I just used the link on the site...I think! Didn't buy them yet...still looking for better seats at lower cost...and the closest heliport.
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:52 AM
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Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.

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Old 01-27-2016, 12:18 PM
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:33 PM
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TerryK67, funny that you did not write one piece of information to prove me wrong? Is it right to have a rule that was never enforced and then you try to enforce it midstream. ? Or believe that healthcare or college costs have been out of control for years ?
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:42 PM
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Consider, John,...

Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.
Suppose you are in business selling a product or service in Dayton.....any product or service. I suggest to you that the price you would charge is the highest price that will maximum revenue. Less than that and you are not optimizing your business....higher prices and revenue will decline because customers will go elsewhere.

Usually competition and the economy determine the pricing sweet spot you as
business man are looking for. That's what UD is trying to do, determine the Arena "sweet spot".....nothing more or less.

UD's "competition" is any/all other entertainment options in the Dayton area....with a bit of an edge provided by the fact that so many alums live close by and would prefer to go to the Arena. A downside is a relatively weak economy.

Yet another downside that I doubt I will ever understand is this: With all the "red and blue" blood very near by....UD says that ~ 25% of UD's >100,000 alums live in Greater Dayton and ~ 50% in Ohio...UD is not well supported financially by its alumni base.....about 10% support UD financially. These people are college graduates and even in a weak Ohio economy are better that "average" financially, I presume. If they're not willing to give UD $100 bucks a year it's understandable that they will resist an Arena cost increase.

Whatever, I'm confident that our U will handle the matter well. (A winning BB team helps a lot.)


~
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:43 PM
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Getting access to the TW Flight Deck is a joke. Many people there aren't UD donors. :-)

Now UDs new remodeled Arena proposes for the Club and Loge Seats:
"access to exclusive lounge"

Yeah right. The current "exclusive lounge", aka TWFD isn't exclusive since it is often hard to get in after the game (even for Gold), you can't get a table for a drink, you feel like you can't get a table since UD / management wants people paying for dinner taking the tables.

If the TWFD was exclusive then perhaps it would be a selling point for the remodeled building. But today it is not. Current practice doesn't allow one to project the proposed future unnamed lounge to be exclusive ....thus the reason for the UD email found below.

Here is the text ...

Dear Flyer Fans,

As our Men’s Basketball games continue to draw strong attendance, we are rejuvenating our practice around access to the Time Warner Cable Flight Deck during and after Men’s Basketball games.

Over the course of the holidays and in recent conference games, we have received unprecedented traffic getting into the Time Warner Cable Flight deck following Men’s Basketball games.

In order to maintain the integrity of our seating program, we will only be allowing season ticket holders who possess Gold, Silver, and Bronze tickets into the Flight Deck towards the later half of University of Dayton Men’s Basketball games.

If the Flight Deck is at maximum capacity and a line is formed at the entrance, patrons will be allowed access in order of the color of their ticket; Gold, then Silver, then Bronze, regardless of their position in the waiting area and subject to current capacity. Once all gold members in line are admitted, silver members will be admitted, followed by bronze members.

We recognize that the Flight Deck is a joyous atmosphere where many fans want to gather and engage one with another. We are working to maintain the integrity of our philanthropic and season ticket programs and protect those who have supported the University at a higher level.

Subject to availability the Boesch Lounge on the north side of the Arena is available to all patrons not limited by the color of the season ticket.

As a reminder, Gold Level constitutes $2,500 in support of University of Dayton Athletics as a charitable gift to the seating plan or capital projects, Silver Level is $1,000 to $2,499, and Bronze Level is $500-$999.

We thank you for your patience and cooperation in understanding the circumstances.

EXAMPLE: John and Jane Doe are in line for the Flight Deck after a game; they have silver tickets. Jeff and Jennifer Smith are behind them and have gold tickets. There is a good sized line that has formed, and the current space in the Flight Deck is at fire code capacity. Jeff and Jennifer Smith whom have gold tickets will be admitted before John and Jane Doe who have silver tickets. After all other gold level season ticket holders in line are admitted, John and Jane Doe will be admitted along with their other silver level season ticket holders.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:01 PM
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When did UD stop enforcing the donor level access? It used to be priority for pre-game, and you had to present some color for half-time and post game.

I agree that mid season would rub people the wrong way, but those donor levels were also promised a service, that most likely, they weren't getting and had complaints..all due to the recent sell out...and right before 2 more this week.

Like I said, I rarely go into the FD as I have heard complaints recently from people due to slower service. I used to go up and let traffic clear out and grab a beverage, but I would rather head to Kramers, etc.

If people were granted access that they didn't pay for, then consider it a lucky draw for some time. This goes hand in hand with my SL argument for all that benefit from an improvement. UD could support multiple lounges post game. But it would have to be the TWFD and BL getting an overhaul in order to have food and alcohol post game. If the Arena had the amenities, how many people, if there were room, would stick around after a game for pizza and drinks? Probably quite a few and that would be a good thing to help the revenue stream.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:17 PM
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Human nature...

Originally Posted by marco red eagle View Post
Getting access to the TW Flight Deck is a joke. Many people there aren't UD donors. :-)

Now UDs new remodeled Arena proposes for the Club and Loge Seats:
"access to exclusive lounge"

Yeah right. The current "exclusive lounge", aka TWFD isn't exclusive since it is often hard to get in after the game (even for Gold), you can't get a table for a drink, you feel like you can't get a table since UD / management wants people paying for dinner taking the tables.

If the TWFD was exclusive then perhaps it would be a selling point for the remodeled building. But today it is not. Current practice doesn't allow one to project the proposed future unnamed lounge to be exclusive ....thus the reason for the UD email found below.

Here is the text ...

Dear Flyer Fans,

As our Men’s Basketball games continue to draw strong attendance, we are rejuvenating our practice around access to the Time Warner Cable Flight Deck during and after Men’s Basketball games.

Over the course of the holidays and in recent conference games, we have received unprecedented traffic getting into the Time Warner Cable Flight deck following Men’s Basketball games.

In order to maintain the integrity of our seating program, we will only be allowing season ticket holders who possess Gold, Silver, and Bronze tickets into the Flight Deck towards the later half of University of Dayton Men’s Basketball games.

If the Flight Deck is at maximum capacity and a line is formed at the entrance, patrons will be allowed access in order of the color of their ticket; Gold, then Silver, then Bronze, regardless of their position in the waiting area and subject to current capacity. Once all gold members in line are admitted, silver members will be admitted, followed by bronze members.

We recognize that the Flight Deck is a joyous atmosphere where many fans want to gather and engage one with another. We are working to maintain the integrity of our philanthropic and season ticket programs and protect those who have supported the University at a higher level.

Subject to availability the Boesch Lounge on the north side of the Arena is available to all patrons not limited by the color of the season ticket.

As a reminder, Gold Level constitutes $2,500 in support of University of Dayton Athletics as a charitable gift to the seating plan or capital projects, Silver Level is $1,000 to $2,499, and Bronze Level is $500-$999.

We thank you for your patience and cooperation in understanding the circumstances.

EXAMPLE: John and Jane Doe are in line for the Flight Deck after a game; they have silver tickets. Jeff and Jennifer Smith are behind them and have gold tickets. There is a good sized line that has formed, and the current space in the Flight Deck is at fire code capacity. Jeff and Jennifer Smith whom have gold tickets will be admitted before John and Jane Doe who have silver tickets. After all other gold level season ticket holders in line are admitted, John and Jane Doe will be admitted along with their other silver level season ticket holders.
Some facts of life:

1. One thing that never changes is human nature.

2. Even if the "Silver Does" knew that the "Gold Smiths" give $25,000 to UD every year they're still going to be pi$$ed when the Smiths are allowed in ahead of them. That's life.

3. At UConn games we park in a garage where finding a "good" space often is difficult. But, upon driving in there is a large roped off choice area "guarded" by an attendant that is always half full or less. This infuriates my wife. I explained to her that the "Legends" area is for donors at $50,000 and above annually. That's $50 grand. You can be sure that when one of those guys shows up he wants a space,....no ifs, ands or buts. Of course that means quite a few Legends spaces will go unused at each game. I explained to my wife that if we give $50 grand we can park in those spaces. Still she's pi$$ed.

Human nature. Donors have to be catered to....sensitively. Not easy.

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  #154  
Old 01-27-2016, 01:26 PM
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It's a lot cheaper to slip the attendant a $20 bill for access rather than make the donation.
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.
Just a suggestion. These long posts would be a lot easier to read if there were some paragraphs. Now don't get angry.
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  #156  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.
What would you have them do? The fire dept only allows so many folks in. So how do you decide who can enter? Obviously, you reward your best customers (called donors) first. Just like doing dinner in the TWFD, we come from Columbus every game and enjoy have dinner before there but don't donate enough for the right colored ticket for hafttime or postgame. I understand that and accept that.
So it's a cast system, sort of, but it's also the reality of the business world and like it or not, UD basketball is a business. So suck it up and either get in line or do the big give.
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  #157  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:20 PM
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What you had with the TWFD was a rule that stated only donors were allowed. It was never enforced, because there is beer money to be made. Now in midstream and in the timing with the survey the place becomes off limits to the non donors. When you have rules, which I am not against, you have to be consistant with them.
I agree that the law of supply and demand dictates most prices. The problem is when you are the flavor of the moment and you fleece old customers for new customers, you might hit it big for two to three years. After that, if something goes wrong, the new customers who have no history of loyalty, could leave you and you have a lot less than what you had before. Classic case is UC basketball. During the Thuggs era, UC required you to buy seat license, football tickets and you had to belong to the Bearcats Club. When the USS Thuggs left port, their attendance fell faster than the World Trade Center. My advice is don't forget your old reliable fans.

I also think a guy like Josh Posterino does not fully understand the demand side of
entertainment budgets for businesses. I have been involved in small business for over 20 years with 14 years in ownership. Let me tell you, the entertainment budgets for companies has dropped off severely since 2000. One exception would be the pharmaceutical industry where free lunches still flow in doctor's offices. Josh knows hoops, Josh knows marketing, but I doubt Josh has his finger on the pulse of the entertainment budgets for most companies in the Dayton area.

One last point, some fans say they trust the UD Administration to do the right thing. That is incredibly being naive. I do not say be paranoid or assume the worst, but some recent decisions have had many people scratching their heads. These mistakes would have never been made during the Fr. Roesch or Brother Fitz eras. Nothing is cart blanche.

By the way, good idea on using paragraphs. The text world frowns on that approach.

Last edited by Angry John; 01-27-2016 at 04:28 PM..
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  #158  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:31 PM
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I am not a fan of eminent domain, but if UD were to buy the houses between the Arena and Stewart, there would be room for additional parking, shops and restaurants.
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  #159  
Old 01-27-2016, 02:42 PM
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Access to the TW flight deck has always been non exclusive ... You flash a ticket ... Any ticket ... And up you go.
There is no ticket reader or scanner ... IMO this is done on purpose ... So UD has more food and beer sales.

After the game ... Once the workers leave at the door you just walk up.

IMO if you are a gold level and can't use the facility then UD is doing harm to future donations ... Like it is today.
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  #160  
Old 01-27-2016, 03:54 PM
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i think one reason the TWFD is busy after the games is due to the wait for the bus to the marriott lot. I will go sit and have a beer before I wait 30 minutes in the cold for a 30 minute ride to my car. Can anyone else think why it is crowded after the game? don't all the big donors leave early?
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
FWIW, my tOSU son is in the marching band and men's basketball pep band. Over Oakwood's winter break in February we decided to pack up the remaining heirs and go to the Michigan basketball game and see him. So last night I get on the OSU basketball ticket website, find 4 seats together in the 2nd deck just off mid-court, sent them to my cart and for a pedestrian $1328 me, the Queen and the Duke and Princess of RolloWood can attend 1 game.

1.

We'll probably have Frederick pack some PB&Js for the game to save another $125.
1 email later and I got four 100 level seats (in tOSU's Coach's Corner) for $40 each.

All hail the Royal Connections*.

Which begs the question: who buys 4 seats in the 2nd deck for $1300?
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  #162  
Old 01-27-2016, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
1 email later and I got four 100 level seats (in tOSU's Coach's Corner) for $40 each.

All hail the Royal Connections*.

Which begs the question: who buys 4 seats in the 2nd deck for $1300?
I may be at the kid's roundtable but I knew enough to know that buying 4 seats in the 2nd deck for $1300 would have been royally stupid.
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  #163  
Old 01-28-2016, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
1 email later and I got four 100 level seats (in tOSU's Coach's Corner) for $40 each.

All hail the Royal Connections*.

Which begs the question: who buys 4 seats in the 2nd deck for $1300?
Because someone, somewhere...is willing to pay that. I list tickets at idiotically high prices and sell them...if I don't...I go to the games. Nice way to pay for the whole book...
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  #164  
Old 01-28-2016, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.
Tl; dr

That said, I'm pretty sure the email didn't say a colored ticket was required to get in. It said if there is a line to get in and it is at capacity, then you better have one because priority will be given. So if you want to get in without giving enough, then get there early. That seems pretty reasonable since the school could enforce the rule the entire time.

Also, the Flight Deck is overrated imho. The beer tastes as good from anywhere else in the arena, and it is a lot less crowded in other areas. I think I would be more likely to go up there if access was more restricted. As it stands today, I never use the benefit of my ticket to go up there because it's not worth the hassle.
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  #165  
Old 01-28-2016, 09:46 AM
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As I recall, from the day the TW opened, a colored ticket (gold or silver) was required to get in. This year for some odd reason, they stop enforcing it.

Fans would pile up around the door waiting to get in. There is limited capacity, so what they would enforce was the fire marshal code for how were allowed in. The deck can't hold 13,000 people, so there has to be enforcement.

Like many other business models, such as airlines, premium customers enjoy some perks. Airlines has first class lounges in the airports that are available only to those customer waiting for the plane. You need some system to manage too much demand and not enough supply.

The seat licenses in the 100 sections are pricey for Dayton Ohio. Granted UD is the professional sport in the town, so I think those patrons do enjoy the premium perks of the Time Warner deck. The drinks and food are not free.
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Old 01-28-2016, 10:12 AM
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What's all the ruckus about? If the TWFD is restricted to donors, so be it. Most airport lounges are restricted to Club Members of the various airlines, First Class travelers or patrons that utilize various premium credit cards...people flying Coach or Economy do not gain access. IMHO, it's smart marketing to provide some tangible perks that reward donors for their contributions. Moreover, UD's threshold for donors to gain the perks, such as they are, is pretty low compared to many other venues and ticket prices seem quite reasonable. Look at it this way, if you've been supporting the university through donations over the years and UD would like to reward you for your loyalty and your financial support, how good is that reward if you can't utilize it because it's available to everyone...how "special" is it if it's not restricted and the service and goods provided are not a cut above what is available elsewhere? All this beeching and moaning over limiting the access to a specific lounge (especially when others are available) is a tad childish and over the top, IMHO. If anything, UD should provide more perks to it's biggest donors than it already does.
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  #167  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Just received an email from UD stating that access to the Time Warner Flight after games will be limited to the donor class. Let me start, I do believe in giving fringe benefits to the donors and if the lines are long the code system should be used. To announce right now that access is limited to donors is a poor business move, because your not 100% sure of what each game holds. You could have 10" of snow and only 5,000 show up. You would be begging for beer money then. The tone of the email lacked in diplomatic skills and had a sense of arrogance. Then you throw out what was standard practice is changed in the middle of the season. Basically, UD is creating a cast sytem among its fan base. Poor UD Earl is so worried about class warfare. In a message to him, I am not a class warfare guy either. I respect individuals that got wealthy by owning small businesses that grew, individuals that had great talents and skills or had great work ethics and ethical business skills. I do not respect individuals that got wealthy by being crooks or individuals that gotrich by either running or working for institutions that fleeced the public. I am not for class warfare, but I am an institutional warfare guy when they rip off the public. That is what is ailing America a lot today. Poor UD Earl sounds like a guy caught in a 1985 time warp. He gives a pass on institutional rip offs all under the disguise of class warfare if you criticize. Is UD ripping people off yet. My answer is no, but they are sending out smoke signals that might point they maybe heading in that direction.The tone they are giving off is becoming an air of being somewhat of a cast system oriented. Doubling the seat license is way too extreme, plus they think there are businesses lined up to take those seats. Big businesses have left Dayton and small businesses have cut out a lot of their entertainment budgets do to losing the 100% write off you used to recieve from the tax code and pricing pressures on keeping their prices for goods and services competitive. I think some of the Administration do not have a good finger on the economics of the area. I can't control what UD does with their approach, but I can control what comes out of my wallet. I quit buying from the concession stands until the Dyshaun Pierre situation was resolved. I started up buying again. Now, with the Time Warner Flight Deck email, no more beer or sandwich purchases from me. If they continue with this peer pressure cast system marketing approach or if they fleece our fans with extreme seat licensing increases, I might have to cut them out of my will. My money only goes to places that is appreciated. I am not telling people what to do. Many of my UD friends feel the same as I do about some of the tactics UD is using in this marketing approach.

This was sent because of over crowding due to sell outs. DO NOT MISREPRESENT what the University is doing. You need to get out and make some money....
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  #168  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:54 AM
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Just to get back on topic, it's still not clear to me why UD has undertaken this type of survey at this time or why it did the survey this way. IMHO, prior to doing any survey of ticket holders, UD should have had several designs in hand with the cost estimates for implementing each of the different proposals. It could then have commissioned a feasibility study to determine the likelihood of raising sufficient private donations for the "equity" component of the financing along with the availability of any corporate support and public funding to determine the amount needed for debt financing and the likely cost of that debt. At that point, UD would have an idea of the type of upgrade it could reasonably expect to undertake within different budgeting scenarios and the added amount it would need to raise from ticket holders based on those projections. It seems to me, UD has placed the cart before the horse. Now maybe UD did do this and simply settled on what it considered to be the most optimum renovation plan , but hitting ticket holders with this survey prior to having a darn good estimate of what financing sources are available and what part of debt service would need to be covered by an increase in revenues from ticket sales, seat licensing fees, concessions and parking seems arse backward to me.
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:46 AM
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UD knows more than you think...

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Just to get back on topic, it's still not clear to me why UD has undertaken this type of survey at this time or why it did the survey this way. IMHO, prior to doing any survey of ticket holders, UD should have had several designs in hand with the cost estimates for implementing each of the different proposals. It could then have commissioned a feasibility study to determine the likelihood of raising sufficient private donations for the "equity" component of the financing along with the availability of any corporate support and public funding to determine the amount needed for debt financing and the likely cost of that debt. At that point, UD would have an idea of the type of upgrade it could reasonably expect to undertake within different budgeting scenarios and the added amount it would need to raise from ticket holders based on those projections. It seems to me, UD has placed the cart before the horse. Now maybe UD did do this and simply settled on what it considered to be the most optimum renovation plan , but hitting ticket holders with this survey prior to having a darn good estimate of what financing sources are available and what part of debt service would need to be covered by an increase in revenues from ticket sales, seat licensing fees, concessions and parking seems arse backward to me.
Bat, UD has more insight than may be apparent. About a decade ago UD embarked on a $360 million capital campaign that was an embarrassing fiasco....and that was allowed to fade away. About five years ago UD developed plans for renovation of the Chapel and was unable to raise the funds. Subsequently the plan was scaled back considerably, work commenced with a beautiful outcome, fortunately.

But, there is a bottom line that our U does not discuss for obvious reasons. That is, UD is very poorly supported by its alumni base. The image of the beloved front porches in the neighborhoods....the dedication to the Flyers, etc,....evaporate when alums are asked to reach for their wallets. Indeed, that's apparent reading threads on this forum.

So, before even getting to options UD may be trying to get a handle on realistic financial support. Just opinion.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But, there is a bottom line that our U does not discuss for obvious reasons. That is, UD is very poorly supported by its alumni base. The image of the beloved front porches in the neighborhoods....the dedication to the Flyers, etc,....evaporate when alums are asked to reach for their wallets. Indeed, that's apparent reading threads on this forum.
Why do you think that is? Generational thing...or what?

UD is ranked about 169 for average student salary in the country...and 264 for endowment per student...

The most likely wallet reaching time...Champions and Scholars fund...UD hoops...it is apparent based on the mailers/phone calls/marketing in that direction.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Bat, UD has more insight than may be apparent. About a decade ago UD embarked on a $360 million capital campaign that was an embarrassing fiasco....and that was allowed to fade away. About five years ago UD developed plans for renovation of the Chapel and was unable to raise the funds. Subsequently the plan was scaled back considerably, work commenced with a beautiful outcome, fortunately.

But, there is a bottom line that our U does not discuss for obvious reasons. That is, UD is very poorly supported by its alumni base. The image of the beloved front porches in the neighborhoods....the dedication to the Flyers, etc,....evaporate when alums are asked to reach for their wallets. Indeed, that's apparent reading threads on this forum.

So, before even getting to options UD may be trying to get a handle on realistic financial support. Just opinion.
Could not agree more. It seems many want one thing, unless of course they are asked to help.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:46 PM
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I think timing of the survey is similar to the realization during DD years with Tom Frericks as AD.

IF I recall after (or was it during) the Finals in 67 Tom stated to DD that 'congratulations you just got 'us' a new arena' something to that affect.

Although they may have been discussing the arena internally they needed a reason to push publicly for such an expansion.

If and we hope DO have some success in this years NCAA's that will be a ruun which has not occurred in many a year (going back to the 60's). It is now that any thoughts of expansion to the now 50 year old Arena can be pushed from the halls of the Ad offices into the public view.

Strike while it's HOT!

Another factor that should not be undervalued ... Interest rates are still at historic lows ...even with the recent FED bump. Hence any bonds and construction loans are going to be more affordable now than maybe 5 years from now. {and shudder the thought OUR Team maybe less than hot a few years from now too!}

So even with all the worts and blemishes of what has been stated in this thread, it behooves those in leadership to make this push now. I don't blame them ... IF I were there I would be doing the same thing.
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  #173  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:50 PM
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I wouldn't want the UD fundraiser job. They have a hard time raising money and proving their worth. One UD fundraiser told me ... "you can't image, how UD (sports?) needs cash".
IMO like any large organization, the larger it is the dumber it is. At UD there are lots of salaries, so little cash.

Personally, besides seat location, I don't see much value given to the UD donors. "Exclusive lounge", "Better concessions", "Wider Concourses"... Please don't make me laugh. :-) Thus the reason why potential donors keep their cash in their pockets.

As a result IMO UD will struggle getting money for ANY remodeling of UD arena. I am out for their update if there is an increasing, doubling or tripling of my annual lower arena seat license. I can stay home and watch it on TV in a better "first row" seat. "Big College" can be funded by someone else.

With the aging of the average UD MBB patron. The fundraisers need to fight ... "I don't see anything of value for my donation." (Where I am stuck on.) OR "I can watch it on TV". OR "I'll spend more time in FL next year". OR "Parking is a hassle". OR "Weather is bad in Dayton so why get tickets." OR "I'm sitting on my neighbor the whole game." OR "Beer prices are to high." LOL
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
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Why?

Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Why do you think that is? Generational thing...or what?

UD is ranked about 169 for average student salary in the country...and 264 for endowment per student...

The most likely wallet reaching time...Champions and Scholars fund...UD hoops...it is apparent based on the mailers/phone calls/marketing in that direction.
In my opinion....just opinion,...a primary reason for UD's abysmal alum support is that traditionally UD has been a blue collar school....i.e., students come from blue collar working class families. The cost of attending a private school is relatively low at UD; almost all students are on some sort of financial aid;....and I think the "culture" of giving is a family thing. Kids that come from upper middle class families and higher come from a family climate where contributions of all types is part of their growing up experience.

Another factor is UD's academic standing among peers, which is average at best. The test scores and rank of UD's incoming freshmen is much higher than decades ago.....but still is no better than average and has pretty much plateaued. It's a fact that the best and brightest choose the best schools...and there is a strong correlation between "best and brightest" and future success. Schools that attract really brilliant kids have a much, much better chance of turning out grads that will be exceptionally successful financially.

This week the WSJ had an article on this subject and a table. The top ten schools take in as much, and some 2x, 3x more in a year than UD's total endowment.

It's complicated, of course. These are just my opinions on a few factors that "may" contribute to the low level of alum support for our U. Again,...just opinions.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:17 PM
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I image student debt/loans may hinder future donations as well. After one of my student's gets done paying off the $107k he currently owes, I doubt he's going to want to 'give' UD another penny.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I image student debt/loans may hinder future donations as well. After one of my student's gets done paying off the $107k he currently owes, I doubt he's going to want to 'give' UD another penny.
And if/when they start having kids that may want to go to UD in the future, every extra penny might be going to a college savings account.

Bring back homecoming for a few years, get more alumni back on campus, and let's see if that helps!
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:51 PM
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Not buying it!

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I image student debt/loans may hinder future donations as well. After one of my student's gets done paying off the $107k he currently owes, I doubt he's going to want to 'give' UD another penny.
That's an excuse that doesn't hold water...unless the student's experience at UD was unpleasant or unsatisfactory.

Debt or no debt.... a large pizza cost ~ $20.....tank of gas more. Is the indebted student unable to afford pizza, gas? A gift of $10 counts as much as a gift of $1000 when it comes to percentage of alums that give. UD makes that clear.

Rollo, your indebted students that don't give do not want to give. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with their finances. Nothing.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:58 PM
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Have you been talking to my students???

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Rollo, your indebted students that don't give do not want to give. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with their finances. Nothing.
It may have nothing to do with finances where you sit on the outside, but when someone tells you that UD 'won't see another penny from me, ever because I've paid them enough', I'd certainly think that current financial obligations will drive future financial decisions.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:12 PM
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Most fundraising follows the 80/20 rule. In fundraising, it might be 90/10. 90 percent of donation amounts come from 10 percent of the donors. The overwhelming amount of funds is donated by a handful of people in large amounts. Look at the recent volleyball donation. Look at the names on some of the facilities. (Some names were made in honor of UD person instead of the donor's name, such as the Donoher center) Look at the new donor wall at the arena. That gives you clues as who they are.

UD is sending surveys out to patrons, but it is obvious, they did the homework and used a consulting firm to design a renovated arena. What is left is how much can be raised through fundraising.

The Dayton area lacks Fortune 500 companies now, so there is a limited pool of corporate sponsors (as there would be in Chicago, Cincinnati, etc...) The bulk of the load has been carried by some private donors.

The challenge in my mind with the lower arena renovation is not losing the game day atmosphere and edge with the new luxury type of seating. I associate premium seating with party, not smart, die hard, rabid basketball fans. Part of what makes UD so exciting is the atmosphere of the fans. The much maligned red sweater vest crowd is part of that. They can be very vocal, just not as colorful as the students.
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  #180  
Old 01-28-2016, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
That's an excuse that doesn't hold water...unless the student's experience at UD was unpleasant or unsatisfactory.

Debt or no debt.... a large pizza cost ~ $20.....tank of gas more. Is the indebted student unable to afford pizza, gas? A gift of $10 counts as much as a gift of $1000 when it comes to percentage of alums that give. UD makes that clear.

Rollo, your indebted students that don't give do not want to give. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with their finances. Nothing.
UAC - This is where you miss the boat. You never fail to bring up the lack of giving any time you can but not everyone sees the world through your eyes. As you know, the $50, $100, donation is not going to move the needle on the endowment. So now you go to the having a greater % of alumni giving will move UD up in the US News ranking. I have news for you and everyone else, we will stay where we are unless the ones in front of us go away. Everyone is playing the same game.

Now when it comes to being able to afford that contribution - plenty can and their reason for not doing so may not be personal finances. It may be more principle. Do I want to give $ to a someplace that uses the money to paint bricks a different color? To someplace that makes investment decisions on liberal thinking? How do I know so much? Because these are some of the thoughts that roll around in my head and I don't believe I am that different than a lot of alumni. I give but seriously question it.

Athletics? I am a pretty hard core nut when but at some point enough is enough. Think about the amount of money that goes into some 18-22 year old kids playing with a ball. If corporate sponsors want to pay for the upgrades, let them.
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  #181  
Old 01-28-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
I'm thinking, with UD's partnership with GE, how about "GE Pavilion @ UD Arena"
Well I joked about this in the Fair Grounds moving thread, but the deepest open pockets in the Dayton region currently appears to be Fuyao.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/ne...C&t=1454008963


Could Fuyao Pavilion @ UD Arena be what it takes to get this done right?
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:51 PM
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Imagine buying a car. You spend $50,000. The car dealership gives you a car. As soon as you take ownership of the car and after you eventually pay it off three years later, the car dealership keeps calling and sending you letters about why you should donate to their showroom expansion campaign to expand the showroom from 20 cars to 35. Among the other improvements will be nicer coffee machines, more receptionist training, and a mentor program for young mechanics.

You'd look at the car dealership like they are out of their freaking gourd. It's not your job to do their job for them. You traded like-for-like things: $50,000 for a $50,000 car. The end.

Granted UD is a non-profit, but we all know thats more wordplay than anything. UD students and UD alums don't owe UD anything. Not a dime. They paid for a product and received a like-for-like valued product. And if the UD education is worth way more than that, UD needs to increases their prices because they are giving it away for too little.

People give because they want to give. No more no less. But there should never be an expectation of giving. Of all the times UD sends its flock letters asking for donations (the "what can you do for me?" angle), how often do you get a random phone call, email, or text message asking "Hey, its so-and-so from the University of Dayton...just wanted to reach out and see how you are doing and if there is anything we can do for you..?" I think most people would say the answer to that is "never".

Its an indictment of the times when everyone just assumes you're supposed to part with hard-earned bread for no other reason than "you owe it" to others to do so. Nobody owes anybody anything. But you do owe yourself the due diligence to vet where your money goes and how its used and how those groups treat your benevolence. If its a one-way street of concern and generosity, it may not be too much of shock as to why getting traction with your flock is a constant struggle.

For the record, I dont discourage giving -- to UD or anybody else. But you can't give to everyone. And you have to give for the right reasons. I dont think UD (or anyone for that matter) is above being properly vetted and interrogated on how they view the in-kind giving in terms of the overall relationship. If and when UD drops the ball, my opinion is they usually suffer because they lack people skills and all too often make the relationship feel like obligated indentured servitude, rather than two separate entities coming together to voluntarily help one another without being asked.

In 20yrs, I can only remember one phone call I ever received from anyone at UD that asked me how I was doing and if there was anything I needed -- and admittedly -- it was from the local alumni chapter and I knew the guy. So...it was already baked into the cake.

For the renovation survey, UD is just trying to gauge interest and price points where the math and upgrade ideas intersect. Nothing wrong with that. These things cost money. Those that want to pony up will. Those that dont won't. Wherever they feel the financial metric ends, that's their budget to work with and they will design plans within that budget.

The renewal rate for lower Arena season tickets is like 99.7%. People have been sitting up in the 300s and 400s for 20 years waiting to move down. The reality is even if UD ticks off a few people and they walk away, there are 5-10 others ready to take their place. This is not good or bad. It just is.
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  #183  
Old 01-28-2016, 03:03 PM
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Two months into my sons Freshmen year at a State school, I received a phone call begging parents of students to donate now to their schools scholarship fund. I nicely educated the young lady that luckily I was in a good mood at the time, and unless she wants one heck of an education from me, either do not call back, or ask the president of the university to make that call for her the next time.
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  #184  
Old 01-28-2016, 03:21 PM
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UAC, I fully expect that UD has a lot more information concerning the proposed Arena renovations than it has divulged and I would expect them to keep it that way. Obviously, UD had architectural plans drawn up with varying features and cost estimates. Why they settled on this particular design without having done financial feasibility studies is what is bothering me. Even if the current proposal is the bare bones model and the least costly of the various designs, which I doubt, UD should have had some detailed financial plans in place to help it in deciding what funds would be needed to make the plan viable. Without that in UD's hip pocket, this whole project comes into doubt. UD is not going to fund the project through enhanced revenue sources at UD games, but those funds will be needed to service the debt.

Unless UD has a firm grip on what it may be able to raise from it's alumni, private benefactors and corporate sponsors (and if any public sources of money might be available), it won't know what the debt component of the financing will need to be. Without the risk capital in place, it won't be able to access the public markets for debt financing anyway. After the financial planning phase is completed and the size of the debt component is ascertained (along with the probable debt service cost), then UD can determine what amount of enhanced revenue flow it will need to service the debt and make the project viable. In order to service the debt associated with the project, UD will need to determine the likely source of those revenues (i.e. higher seat license fees, broader seat license fees, an increase in parking fees, enhanced concession revenues, funds from hosting outside events, etc.) without hurting it's fan base. That's why it seems to me that the whole survey is a little out of place at this time.

*UD has been good in recent years at reaching out to Alums in different cities and bringing us up to date with developments at the school and with the Administration's vision and plans for the future. Why, UD hasn't done a dog-and-pony show on it's plans for the renovations at the Arena to guage Alumni interest in funding such a project is somewhat surprising. That is one of the reasons why this survey took me aback and why, IMHO, UD did not do the necessary groundwork in building financial support for the project before coming out with it's ticket holder proposal. It just seems arse backwards to me, unless of course I missed the memo when UD was in NYC to meet with Alums to discuss this.

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Old 01-28-2016, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The renewal rate for lower Arena season tickets is like 99.7%. People have been sitting up in the 300s and 400s for 20 years waiting to move down. The reality is even if UD ticks off a few people and they walk away, there are 5-10 others ready to take their place. This is not good or bad. It just is.
Chris, Your absolutely correct on this point. Last year the MSU nite game at Ohio Stadium (which BTW tOSU lost) cost face value $250 per ticket (not in sideline seats either). A premium game if you will ... now we can protest they lost, we can protest that including that one game, season tickets cost plenty and no, we will not contribute to their fund raisers. And in turn the university has decided to change up how season tickets are assigned and allotted for 2016 based upon one's Gift Giving levels and NO purchases of season tickets does NOT constitute a 'gift' ... Season tickets are a purchase for return of some value, i.e. a football game. No more no less.

If I walked away from the season tickets due to some need to protest seat location, cost or whatever, there are 1000's of people waiting the opportunity to sit in my seats ... Thank You Very Much Mr. Flyer!

So we have our choices to make, which not only covers keeping or rejecting the way seats are given out, but whether we give or don't give additionally when those phone calls come .... which BTW is a short conversation in our home.

The one thing that is impressive at tOSU is that their former athletes from time to time step up and donate $millions of dollars back to the athletic department. Course once again an individual decision made easier by the NBA'er or NFL'er who need a tax break and if not for tOSU would have no means to do much of anything!
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Old 01-28-2016, 03:28 PM
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I want to get back to the flight deck discussion. Was the email saying they would do the vetting only after the game? There is no other beer or food available after the game. I still think it has to do with the parking situation. Can you tell I still p*ssed about the shuttle?
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Old 01-28-2016, 03:54 PM
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Wrong!

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
UAC - This is where you miss the boat. You never fail to bring up the lack of giving any time you can but not everyone sees the world through your eyes......
But apparently the alums of peer Catholic institutions that have substantially higher giving rates than UD do see it pretty much the way I do.

If UD's giving rate was average among peer schools you wouldn't hear a peep from me, But, it's not. UD's giving rate is embarrassingly low compared to peers.

What does that have to do with "my eyes"? How do you explain that? This has nothing to do with me...and everything to do with UD alums.
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  #188  
Old 01-28-2016, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But apparently the alums of peer Catholic institutions that have substantially higher giving rates than UD do see it pretty much the way I do.

If UD's giving rate was average among peer schools you wouldn't hear a peep from me, But, it's not. UD's giving rate is embarrassingly low compared to peers.

What does that have to do with "my eyes"? How do you explain that? This has nothing to do with me...and everything to do with UD alums.
I guess we are not really peers then.
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Old 01-28-2016, 04:44 PM
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Agreed

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I guess we are not really peers then.
When it comes to giving we are not peers of many comparable Catholic institutions. But surely we think we are their equals in other areas. Why not giving?
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Old 01-28-2016, 04:51 PM
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NJFlyr71 one thing you said I need to voice my opinion ... I read you saying ... If a UD MBB lower arena season ticket holder "walk(s) away from the season tickets due to some need to protest seat location, cost or whatever, there are 1000's of people" ready to take the 2 seats at the existing $3,000 seat license (before ticket prices) per year.

I don't see that in the works. So when they double or triple the seat license there will be even less people capable of paying it.

Yes the flyer faithful are big time loyal AND yes 1000's want to move down ... but IMO not at the high seat license levels that exist today and at the projected renovated arena levels.

I don't hear 1000s of people wanting to pay $3000 for 2 seats a year for the seat license and this doesn't include the actual ticket costs.

Last edited by marco red eagle; 01-28-2016 at 05:54 PM..
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Old 01-28-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
When it comes to giving we are not peers of many comparable Catholic institutions. But surely we think we are their equals in other areas. Why not giving?
I don't think of us as peers. UD is not SLU, is not Fordham, is not Villanova, is not Marquette. UD and its alumni are unique. Some of that uniqueness one might consider good and some of that uniqueness one might consider not so good.
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  #192  
Old 01-28-2016, 08:12 PM
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UD alums unique?

Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I don't think of us as peers. UD is not SLU, is not Fordham, is not Villanova, is not Marquette. UD and its alumni are unique. Some of that uniqueness one might consider good and some of that uniqueness one might consider not so good.
Well, perhaps UD alums are unique...I doubt that...but, I'll accept it for the moment. But, I would like to have a better understanding of just what "uniqueness" makes UD alums better than those of SLU, FU, VU, MU, BC, GU, ND and many others...as well as what specific characteristics makes us "not so good" in comparison.

In my opinion some are simply ungenerous and unwilling to admit it. They engage in any and all forms of denial, ego defense and so forth to avoid the truth that they are simply not generous and willing to share the load.

Indeed, UDPride, our wonderful forum for all things UD, is a good example. It's something a large number of regular Priders all enjoy immensely....and we all know that the funds to support and sustain UDPride are not provided by the tooth fairy. Knowing that, some choose to carry their share of UDPride's financial burden, and some do not.
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  #193  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:59 PM
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IMHO, casting aspersions at UD Alums for not giving as much as our supposed "peers" is not helpful or warranted. As far as I'm concerned we are unique in our loyalty to our Alma Mater. Having said that, I also believe, that a good number of UD Alums do not have a warm and cozy feeling toward the Administration from the time they were matriculating. Whether we would like to admit it or not, quite often the Administration was not "user friendly" and many Grads did not appreciate it. Some of my old friends will not give a dime to the Administration to this day because of the slights they got from the school. We all got a great education, we all loved our classmates, our neighbors in the "ghetto" (gee, I hope I didn't cause a micro-aggression with that term), most of our Profs and the UD Community as a whole...but some of us (not me, BTW, although it took me some time to come around) never got over some of the shabby, high-handed treatment they got from various power sectors at UD. UD needs to start treating all students as clients and potential benefactors from the time they enroll right through Graduation...in the past, UD hasn't always done that. Sorry if people disagree, but that is the reality; my two cents.
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  #194  
Old 01-29-2016, 08:41 AM
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The blue collar argument rings true with many people. I know MANY people that graduated from UD in the education field. There aren't too many teachers starting out in the mid 30k's with that, if not more in student loan debt, trying to live on that, repay student loan debt...then contribute to UD when their savings account is near 0.

If every UD grad was busting out making more cash with less immediate debt, then one could argue that there is more fat that can be trimmed and handed to UD.

I believe it is a generational thing and it boils down to two things...

1. Not much meaningful connection with UD grads outside of athletics.

2. Many newer grads, while they may be in good jobs, are from a generation where if they are making 100k, they are spending 96k. We are a nation of credit and debt.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that grad who spends their hard earned cash. It is their decision, so don't expect them to make a yearly donation.

With alums. Yes, there is alumni weekend. When have alumni been recognized at a UD game? When has UD put on events either pre or post game for alumni in Dayton? There are little things that UD can do in order to entice alumni to give. I donate to charities that I believe in. I also give a small amount to UD. There are a few things that companies or non-profits need to do in order to entice donations. Donors have to feel valued and they want recognition. Donors also want to have a sense of value.

If you take 50 people that make 50k a year and ask them to donate towards a cause just because it is a good cause you may raise X amount of dollars. You tell that same 50 people that if they buy a 20 dollar ticket to a fish fry and their is legal gambling going on...they feel like they are getting something for their dollar and are more likely to spend much more than that 20 bucks. Dayton is a blue collar beer and pizza community...not a wine and cheese group. If you want donors, recognize them, offer "value", etc...don't just cold call people wanting a buck.
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  #195  
Old 01-29-2016, 08:42 AM
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Maybe our "peers" are cheaters. Or like I said before, they are not out peers.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117279405348024132

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/ed...ings.html?_r=0
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  #196  
Old 01-29-2016, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I donate to charities that I believe in.
Mostly this for me. I channel 100% of my available gifting money to charities. They need it more than UD, IMHO.
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Old 01-29-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by marco red eagle View Post
I don't hear 1000s of people wanting to pay $3000 for 2 seats a year for the seat license and this doesn't include the actual ticket costs.
Sorry for being unclear, the sentence "If I walked away from the season tickets due to some need to protest seat location, cost or whatever, there are 1000's of people waiting the opportunity to sit in my seats ... Thank You Very Much Mr. Flyer!" Was written to belong to the discussion on the paragraph directly above which had to do with tOSU season tickets and the population which is ready, willing and able to jump to get access to a seat in the OHIO stadium ... it was not written to imply that there were 1,000's waiting to pay $3 grand in the Arena ... although I believe there would be some ... just not 1,000's ....
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Old 01-29-2016, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But apparently the alums of peer Catholic institutions that have substantially higher giving rates than UD do see it pretty much the way I do.

If UD's giving rate was average among peer schools you wouldn't hear a peep from me, But, it's not. UD's giving rate is embarrassingly low compared to peers.

What does that have to do with "my eyes"? How do you explain that? This has nothing to do with me...and everything to do with UD alums.
I am just curious who UD's peers are? I imagine that UD's giving rate is comparable to Xavier and Butler. I would be curious how UD's alumni giving compares statistically to those two schools. I can't think of any other schools in the immediate states of Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, or Michigan that would be more comparable than those two schools.

All three of those schools seem to have somewhat similar profiles. UD has a significantly larger student enrollment than those two.

Last edited by ud2; 01-29-2016 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:07 PM
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not sure about the "give rate" but UD's endowment is larger than X and Butler combined by a significant amount, you can add both of theirs together and then add the larger of the 2 on top and the number would still not equal UD's. Of course their pool of graduates is smaller so their giving rate per capita could be equal to or greater.
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Old 01-30-2016, 12:47 PM
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Florida spending $65 million to expand and improve their basketball arena seating 11,500.
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