BIG EAST 7 Meet And Make Big Announcement! - Page 2

MD Flyer Pride · #**101** 01-09-2013, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

Duke is a basketball school that has non-relevant football.

Hey... they finally made a bowl game this year!

San Diego Flyer · #**102** 01-09-2013, 10:35 AM

Had a chance to win their first bowl game in 50 years and took gas.

When June Jones left Hawaii he said there were only two football programs on the mainland that interested him. One was SMU and the other was Duke because he wanted to resurrect a football program that was on the bottom.

New Mexico is another good basketball program with a pitiful football team. 3 of the last 4 seasons with ONE win in football.

bcross · #**103** 01-09-2013, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

Duke is a basketball school that has non-relevant football. There are more than one of those around. When the conjecture, or even facts, are reported, the public is the last to know. One report on this board had the number at $5M. No one on the outside knows what is going on in those conclaves right now.

Duke is getting $20M from the new ACC contract. The $5M figure comes from the uneven sharing proposal in which the C7 gets more which likely will only be for a temporary basis. Good numbers for basketball only, but it's nothing compared to what you can get for football.

Bat'71 · #**104** 01-09-2013, 11:39 AM

Reading some of the Posts on this Thread is a little disheartening to say the least. What is it with some who want so desperately to be included in the "cool kids" group of the BE 7, especially since they really aren't that "cool" to begin with? Gaud, it's rather nauseating at times.

Some talk about "respect" (or the lack thereof) for UD from some, if not all, of the Catholic schools in the BE 7, yet show not one whit of respect for the A-10, a Conference that threw us a lifeline back in the late mid-'90s when we were floundering. No one seems to show any respect for St. Joe's, Duquesne, Richmond, GW or anyone else. Before throwing a rock at them, look at our own glass house, huh? On other Threads we berate many of those schools that jump out of one Conference to another solely for the bucks, yet here we are longing to do the same da*n thing. Ya know, we can't have it both ways. The amount of insecurity on this Board is mind boggling and somewhat embarrassing at times. Ooooh, I hope we're included with the big boys! Ooooh, oooooh, pick me, pick me. YUK!

longtimefan · #**105** 01-09-2013, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Reading some of the Posts on this Thread is a little disheartening to say the least. What is it with some who want so desperately to be included in the "cool kids" group of the BE 7, especially since they really aren't that "cool" to begin with? Gaud, it's rather nauseating at times.

Are you saying you would be happy in an A-10 without Xavier, Butler, St louis, VCU, and UMass (will eventually leave for football)? That is my concern. That would set the program back again. I think most people know the A-10 is just as good as the BE 7, but it won't be anywhere near as good if four of the best teams leave. It doesn't have anything to do with being with the "cool" guys. It has to do with the future of the program.

Medford · #**106** 01-09-2013, 11:59 AM

Well Bat, I respect the A-10 in its current format, and if it were to hold together, I'd be happy with that. However, the thought of being linked to not only G'town & marquette, but also Butler, Xavier, Creighton, etc... is far more attractive than being linked to Saint Joes, Saint Bonnies, GW & Fordham moving forward.

Its no so much about the C7, as it is about what UD could potentially be left behind in. The A10 w/o Temple, Charolotte, UMass, Xavier, Butler, and VCU/SLU isn't anything close to the A10 we're going to see this year.

ClaytonFlyerFan · #**107** 01-09-2013, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Are you saying you would be happy in an A-10 without Xavier, Butler, St louis, VCU, and UMass (will eventually leave for football)? That is my concern. That would set the program back again..

Everyone already complains about our non con home schedule. We have already lost Temple from the A-10, now we might lose X, St. Louis, UMass, off our home schedule as well, not to mention our new A-10 members.

If we are left in a depleted A-10, can you imagine the whining on this board when our future schedules are announced?

bobber · #**108** 01-09-2013, 12:04 PM

If posted already, a thousand pardons, Sahib.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-bask...ts-tv-contract

http://www.nj.com/college-basketball...to_report.html

flyerfanatic86 · #**109** 01-09-2013, 12:04 PM

I don't understand the reluctance to join a new conference, assuming any disproportional revenue sharing was temporary. If it isn't, then I get it.

I couldn't care less about perceived disrespect by other teams' fans, and I don't think any of us actually know how these schools' administrations really feel about UD. Just because they dodged us for games doesn't reflect anything about how they would work with us in a conference. While Marquette's AD sounded like a jerk, he doesn't represent the administrations of all 7 schools. In fact, they are trying to save face right now and represent that they are still big time to score a good TV deal. It makes sense.

There are a lot of benefits to UD joining this conference, assuming the rumored TV deal with FOX is close to true. First, it's a big jump up in money. Additionally, every conference game may be televised on a national cable network. As often as we complain about not being able to see the Flyers (except on grainy internet feeds), this is amazing news. I could watch them outside of WHIO's viewing area, and so could recruits. No need to add a sports tier to the cable package, no scouring the internet for pirated feeds. As much as we have complained for years about UD's national exposure, this would go a long way to fixing it.

Then there is the much discussed factor of what is left of the A10. Sure, the A10 is great right now, but I don't want to stick around if Butler, SLU, and x leave (after Temple leaves already). I can't think of any games I'd be excited to go see with the group that's left. However, a league with Butler, SLU, x, Marquette, Georgetown, and Nova would make season tickets worthwhile. While we can discuss the leverage available to all of the schools if they make demands together, it won't happen unless the terms are outrageous.

The move doesn't come without risks, but I think the benefits far outweigh any of them, particularly if there is a TV deal in place before we announce the move. Perceived slights by other fans and administrators don't change the many benefits of a move.

bobber · #**110** 01-09-2013, 12:14 PM

If posted before, a thousand pardons, Sahib.

http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/1/9/3855...es-in-new-york

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2013...f_catholic.htm

http://members.boardhost.com/onedeuc...357681527.html

Avid Flyer · #**111** 01-09-2013, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86

I don't understand the reluctance to join a new conference, assuming any disproportional revenue sharing was temporary. If it isn't, then I get it.

I couldn't care less about perceived disrespect by other teams' fans, and I don't think any of us actually know how these schools' administrations really feel about UD. Just because they dodged us for games doesn't reflect anything about how they would work with us in a conference. While Marquette's AD sounded like a jerk, he doesn't represent the administrations of all 7 schools. In fact, they are trying to save face right now and represent that they are still big time to score a good TV deal. It makes sense.

There are a lot of benefits to UD joining this conference, assuming the rumored TV deal with FOX is close to true. First, it's a big jump up in money. Additionally, every conference game may be televised on a national cable network. As often as we complain about not being able to see the Flyers (except on grainy internet feeds), this is amazing news. I could watch them outside of WHIO's viewing area, and so could recruits. No need to add a sports tier to the cable package, no scouring the internet for pirated feeds. As much as we have complained for years about UD's national exposure, this would go a long way to fixing it.

Then there is the much discussed factor of what is left of the A10. Sure, the A10 is great right now, but I don't want to stick around if Butler, SLU, and x leave (after Temple leaves already). I can't think of any games I'd be excited to go see with the group that's left. However, a league with Butler, SLU, x, Marquette, Georgetown, and Nova would make season tickets worthwhile. While we can discuss the leverage available to all of the schools if they make demands together, it won't happen unless the terms are outrageous.

The move doesn't come without risks, but I think the benefits far outweigh any of them, particularly if there is a TV deal in place before we announce the move. Perceived slights by other fans and administrators doesn't change the many benefits of a move.

Tha is my position. Love the fact we'd be playing names that our fans could really get into. But if the uneven shares is not temporary then I am not for it. We need have a level playing field for Dayton to have a chance at the top tier. Without it we are assured a bottom tier.

shocka43 · #**112** 01-09-2013, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Reading some of the Posts on this Thread is a little disheartening to say the least. What is it with some who want so desperately to be included in the "cool kids" group of the BE 7, especially since they really aren't that "cool" to begin with?

They become rather cool when they take all the cool kids from the A10.

This isn't about joining the C7 as much as it is staying aligned with the strength of the A10.

If the MVC or some other conference imploded, and they had planned to take a large percentage of the strong teams from the A10, we would be looking at options as well...and most likely those options include staying aligned with those like us in the A10 and with others that help us as well.

If we get left behind by the cream of the crop of the A10, there is no guarantee whatsoever that any strong schools for other conferences sign up with the A10. Why do they want to be aligned with Dayton, and....STB, Fordham, Duquesne.

When the teams that are in the A10, that make it desirable to be in the A10, leave, we need to be jumping ship too.

Gazoo · #**113** 01-09-2013, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer

Shocka43 that was Ted Kissels approach to making the flyers more attractive should a split occure. If it works out that this IS considered then TK will have been a visonary and genius. If not, well then maybe we can make it to the final 4 with one of the ladies teams, should the men's bball not rise to the occation.

I really don't think this will make a lick of difference, I think it's purely a post-selection justification. When all the other facts don't stack up on why they would invite a team, they'll justify making the call based on the tie breaker of "look how good their Olympic sports are." Our women's soccer, volleyball, and golf teams could be national champions back-to-back and I don't think we get the call unless they thought men's basketball was going to drive $$ into the coffers.

Originally Posted by UDDoug

I would rather be the Gonzaga or Butler in a revamped A10, than a Providence or DePaul in the new Big East. Playing in a weaker perceived league hasn't hampered either one of them.

Agree completely, but, we haven't proven (yet) that we would even win THAT league.

Originally Posted by Glen Clark

'where it matters, BG succeeded'. He may have not raised the bar as high as you would have liked, but he raised the bar.

You can raise the bar without succeeding. And I think that's exactly what happened with BG that causes so much argument on this board.

OP had a limited mandate and succeeded in meeting it, but when it came to real success he failed and so he was gone. BG raised it higher but again did not find success, he only raised the bar.

Bat'71 · #**114** 01-09-2013, 01:48 PM

You can rationalize this any way you guys want to, but that's all it is...a rationalization that if we don't get included with the "grown up programs" , we and the rest of the A-10 will be crap. PUL-EEEESE...I'm sure that's how Pitt and 'Cuse may have rationalized jumping to the ACC too (or something like it.) Look, if the BE 7 deigns to accept X, Butler and SLU (and not UD)to go to 10 teams, then so be it; SLU ain't no big deal and Butler just got here; yeah, I'll be sorry to see X go, but we've been gone our separate ways before.*

As far as recruiting goes, we're already recruiting against everyone in the mix...could recruiting be a little harder for us...maybe, but Butler's been recruiting against us and everyone else for decades and they were doing pretty well while being in the lowly Horizon Conference for cryin' out loud. Ooooh, but what about VCU? Well, guess what , they were in the Colonial along with Richmond. Ooooh, what about Gonzaga? Well, the last time I looked, they were also doing quite well while being situated in the middle of Bumblehump, Washington and playing in the West Coast Conference, along with St. Mary's (not exactly a household name, BTW.)

If the others go (i.e. Butler, X, SLU) and the BE 7 takes Creighten, they will have a very nice Conference, and probably better than the A-10 for the time being. However, the A-10 with UD, Duquesne, Richmond, St. Joe's, VCU and GW etc. will still be a solid group. Now that Fordham has access to the Barclay's Center they too may actually be able to upgrade their profile and recruit better with a pretty good coach at the helm. If UMass bolts, so be it; their FB program will never be any good, and I doubt with all the resources that will demand of them that they'll be much of a factor in BB anymore. We need a little more self respect, IMO, and some pride in who we are and confidence in where we're going. We have a da*n good Conference now, and it will still be a good one after whoever leaves, leaves. The incessant whining about all of this is demeaning. Talk about needy...give me a break.

*Personally, I'd rather the A-10 go after Marquette and DePaul and expand the Conference. If the money is right (and I mean really right) and we get better national exposure, I could see joining up with X, Butler and maybe SLU and Creighten to join in a Conference of equals with the BE 7 (but I sure as h*ll wouldn't leave w/o X)...I'd hate to turn my back on the A-10, but, in this case, it would be stupid not to. Similarly, however, I would not begrudge others from doing so if we are not included in that mix...it would be understandable for them, if the terms were the same. However, I will not feel diminished, nor lose any sleep over this, one way or another.

Flyer69ers · #**115** 01-09-2013, 02:27 PM

There's no way around the fact that a solid TV deal would help recruiting.
The "national" visibility sure beats what we offer kids now - We in Chicago still have to watch most of our games on the computer/UD feed. Pretty pathetic, actually.

bobber · #**116** 01-09-2013, 02:36 PM

Deal is not expected soon because conference has not decided on the number of schools. "Waiting, waiting, I'll die in Casablanca.....waiting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...x-cbs/1820707/

shocka43 · #**117** 01-09-2013, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Look, if the BE 7 deigns to accept X, Butler and SLU (and not UD)to go to 10 teams, then so be it; SLU ain't no big deal and Butler just got here; yeah, I'll be sorry to see X go, but we've been gone our separate ways before.*

But Temple and potentially UMass leaving as well, changes that tune.

The A-10 gains VCU while losing Butler, X, SLU, Temple, Charlotte, and potentially UMass...hardly leaves the A-10 any stronger. And without someone ready and willing from the MVC or the likes, the A-10 suffers for some time.

I agree that I would rather see the A-10 absorb teams versus splitting up. It all boils down to the loyalty the other A10 schools have to the A10. In the long run, I will bet not much.

With a TV deal helping the new conference out, that basically waters down potential TV deals even more. Why would any network beat on the A10's door to put us on TV when they commit elsewhere?

If alignment happens, and we aren't included, we and the A10 get shuffled further down the line. The only think that helps, is if other stronger schools come our way. That's not a guarantee. The only guarantee is if/when teams do leave. That is the only certainty...and the fact the A10 becomes weaker.

longtimefan · #**118** 01-09-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

*Personally, I'd rather the A-10 go after Marquette and DePaul and expand the Conference. If the money is right (and I mean really right) and we get better national exposure, I could see joining up with X, Butler and maybe SLU and Creighton to join in a Conference of equals with the BE 7 (but I sure as h*ll wouldn't leave w/o X)...

And I'd like to spend the weekend with Heidi Klum, but that's not going to happen either.

Bat'71 · #**119** 01-09-2013, 03:48 PM

Oh, Brother! We'll be just fine, come what may. Yeah, anything can happen...I get it, but that doesn't mean mean if we aren't with the "in crowd", as some on this Board believe the BE 7 to be, that we'll shrivel up and wither away in a benighted A-10. Worrying about the outcome of all this and wringing our proverbial hands over it just gets a little unseemly at times. There, I'm done...'nuff said.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**120** 01-09-2013, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Reading some of the Posts on this Thread is a little disheartening to say the least. What is it with some who want so desperately to be included in the "cool kids" group of the BE 7, especially since they really aren't that "cool" to begin with? Gaud, it's rather nauseating at times.

Some talk about "respect" (or the lack thereof) for UD from some, if not all, of the Catholic schools in the BE 7, yet show not one whit of respect for the A-10, a Conference that threw us a lifeline back in the late mid-'90s when we were floundering. No one seems to show any respect for St. Joe's, Duquesne, Richmond, GW or anyone else. Before throwing a rock at them, look at our own glass house, huh? On other Threads we berate many of those schools that jump out of one Conference to another solely for the bucks, yet here we are longing to do the same da*n thing. Ya know, we can't have it both ways. The amount of insecurity on this Board is mind boggling and somewhat embarrassing at times. Ooooh, I hope we're included with the big boys! Ooooh, oooooh, pick me, pick me. YUK!

Is it me, or does Bat make the same post (perhaps with different wording) every day or two?

San Diego Flyer · #**121** 01-09-2013, 04:33 PM

I appreciate the links to articles, but honestly the only thing new in all of them is the hiring of the consultants to up the negotiation ante.

"The C7 Presidents and ADs will not be present at the meeting today, according to Sports Illustrated, but had retained Pilson and Leccese's firms to represent them last week".

Everything else we read is either a rehash of some other rag's article, or some wild personal guesses without basis.

rollo · #**122** 01-09-2013, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

And I'd like to spend the weekend with Heidi Klum, but that's not going to happen either.

That's because she's already with me.

Snooze you lose!

bobber · #**123** 01-09-2013, 05:17 PM

Largely more of the same, but they do keep mentioning UD and don't talk about VCU.

http://www.nj.com/college-basketball...to_report.html

ud2 · #**124** 01-09-2013, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gazoo

OP had a limited mandate and succeeded in meeting it, but when it came to real success he failed and so he was gone. BG raised it higher but again did not find success, he only raised the bar.

Was OP interested in staying here if the money was right? Did UD make a real effort to try to keep OP here? Or was the money from Clemson just too much for UD to be able to compete with?

San Diego Flyer · #**125** 01-09-2013, 06:14 PM

IMO---no, no, and yes (but not all reasons are about money--the marriage was stale).

ud2 · #**126** 01-09-2013, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

IMO---no, no, and yes (but not all reasons are about money--the marriage was stale).

In your opinion then, was it a mistake to not make more of a real effort to keep OP? I assume that you feel that it was time for a fresh start, and so the right move was to let OP move on. I guess recruiting was slipping, frustration over the loss to Tulsa, etc.

Perhaps UD could have kept OP and taken a step forward as a program.

Clemson doesn't look like a real big upgrade over UD. And it looks like it is tough to win at Clemson being in the ACC.

longtimefan · #**127** 01-09-2013, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by rollo

That's because she's already with me.
Snooze you lose!

I'm going to start lifting weights!!

longtimefan · #**128** 01-09-2013, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

IMO---no, no, and yes (but not all reasons are about money--the marriage was stale).

Agree. OP wanted to move East and wouldn't have turned down the ACC even if we had offered more money, which I don't think we should have. He was ready to hit the road.

longtimefan · #**129** 01-09-2013, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

In your opinion then, was it a mistake to not make more of a real effort to keep OP? I assume that you feel that it was time for a fresh start, and so the right move was to let OP move on. I guess recruiting was slipping, frustration over the loss to Tulsa, etc.

Perhaps UD could have kept OP and taken a step forward as a program.

Clemson doesn't look like a real big upgrade over UD. And it looks like it is tough to win at Clemson being in the ACC.

Not a mistake to let him go. The simple fact that Clemson is in the ACC makes it a huge upgrade over UD. He won enough to make the NCAA Tourney, he just never won IN the NCAA Tourney.

UDDoug · #**130** 01-09-2013, 06:52 PM

I don't think OP was staying without getting Calipari type money. He was already making more than $1 million a year with his incentives.

Sea Bass · #**131** 01-09-2013, 06:54 PM

IMO OP had decided it was time to move on. He had a good run and was ready for the next challenge.

ud2 · #**132** 01-09-2013, 07:05 PM

Not that I think the BG hire, at the time, was a bad decision, but were there any successful, experienced head coaches competing with BG for the job? If UD was paying OP that kind of money, I'm sure the UD job could have attracted some good candidates. Sorry for all the questions, I didn't really follow things as closely then.

Gazoo · #**133** 01-09-2013, 07:34 PM

I think coaches get asked to leave far more often than is reported. My memory is that the fan base was tired of the ceiling and voicing frustration, ready for a change. Time to go, mutually. Same with BG. He didn't have to be fired, it was clear without being forced out. It is like being put on a performance improvement plan in the corporate world, it means you best get a different job soon because you are going to be fired soon.

San Diego Flyer · #**134** 01-09-2013, 07:59 PM

IIRC Purnell left a year short of collecting on a $1M tenure bonus. He could do that because Clemson compensated him for it. I don't think he was in such disfavor that Kissell would have asked him to leave. After all, look at the Senior class he had coming back. Actually I would have liked to have seen him coach that squad.

jumpin' joe · #**135** 01-09-2013, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

IIRC Purnell left a year short of collecting on a $1M tenure bonus. He could do that because Clemson compensated him for it. I don't think he was in such disfavor that Kissell would have asked him to leave. After all, look at the Senior class he had coming back. Actually I would have liked to have seen him coach that squad.

But his freshmen and sophomore classes on that roster were extremely weak. It's like OP got tired of working the recruiting trail and a put it on cruise control with the likes of Warren Williams, Marques Bennett, Logan White, James Cripe, etc. Nice guys, but...

San Diego Flyer · #**136** 01-09-2013, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe

But his freshmen and sophomore classes on that roster were extremely weak. It's like OP got tired of working the recruiting trail and a put it on cruise control with the likes of Warren Williams, Marques Bennett, Logan White, James Cripe, etc. Nice guys, but...

Oh, I totally agree the cupboard was bare. But walking away from an NCAA team that was capable of a Sweet Sixteen or better.......just a bit surprising. Of course the ACC job he coveted would not have been there a year later.

College B-Ball Fan · #**137** 01-09-2013, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

IIRC Purnell left a year short of collecting on a $1M tenure bonus. He could do that because Clemson compensated him for it. I don't think he was in such disfavor that Kissell would have asked him to leave. After all, look at the Senior class he had coming back. Actually I would have liked to have seen him coach that squad.

SDF, you are correct about the UD "position" on the 1 million that OP left on the table (and tried to negotiate "for" as he left!) UD never paid it---and shouldn't have.....

As for the package that he recieved from Clemson, I'm not sure if he was ever compensated over and above his yearly contract for that "lost" 1 million--maybe you know but I don't know that. He actually left UD/Dayton before that piece of the puzzle was sorted out---glad UD took the position that they did!

longtimefan · #**138** 01-09-2013, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

Oh, I totally agree the cupboard was bare. But walking away from an NCAA team that was capable of a Sweet Sixteen or better.......just a bit surprising. Of course the ACC job he coveted would not have been there a year later.

He didn't do so well in the NCAA with an even better team in 02-03.

zmz723 · #**139** 01-10-2013, 09:43 AM

New article with new info: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ioners-sources

Representatives from the Catholic 7 held discussions in New York on Wednesday that included potential future commissioners of the league as well as its television deal, sources said.

At the meeting, Fox officials reaffirmed a $500 million rights fee offer that would be predicated on a 12-year deal with the Catholic 7 (DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova) adding five additional teams to the league.

The big TV deal is contingent on adding 5 teams to the league

longtimefan · #**140** 01-10-2013, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by zmz723

New article with new info: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ioners-sources
The big TV deal is contingent on adding 5 teams to the league

The thing that scares me is if they want one eastern team. They could take VCU and then Xavier, Butler, Creighton, and St Louis. I think we deserve it more than St Louis, but Creighton and St Louis are closer together and would form a "western twosome." And St Louis has a bigger market even though we have more eyes watching. When this first started I thought it would be X, Butler, Dayton, St Louis, and VCU, but then Creighton immediately jumped into the picture.

San Diego Flyer · #**141** 01-10-2013, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by College B-Ball Fan

SDF, you are correct about the UD "position" on the 1 million that OP left on the table (and tried to negotiate "for" as he left!) UD never paid it---and shouldn't have.....

As for the package that he received from Clemson, I'm not sure if he was ever compensated over and above his yearly contract for that "lost" 1 million--maybe you know but I don't know that. He actually left UD/Dayton before that piece of the puzzle was sorted out---glad UD took the position that they did!

What I got from an insider was that OP received "reasonable consideration" from Clemson for the missed tenure deal at UD. My guess was that it was an amount short of a mil, and enough to take the sting out of leaving the full amount on the Dayton table. All three parties appeared to want this job change to happen.

Sea Bass · #**142** 01-10-2013, 10:17 AM

anything is still possible at this point. What I do know is that one day all of the speculation will come to and end and a deal will be done. Until then all the Flyers can do is wait.

xubrew · #**143** 01-10-2013, 10:40 AM

I think CBS Sports is also interested in this new league, and although they've been talking with Fox, I don't think a TV deal is in the stages of being finalized. At least I hope not. You shouldn't finalize a deal if you haven't heard all the pitches yet.

I also think Dayton will be a part of this. If I had to guess I'd say they've already been given indications that they will be included.

Just what I think. Take it for what it's worth.

ud2 · #**144** 01-10-2013, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by zmz723

New article with new info: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ioners-sources

The big TV deal is contingent on adding 5 teams to the league

I was not expecting this new league to begin in 2013-2014, but it is sounding like that is what they are trying for:

"Although the teams can leave the Big East without any exit fees at the end of June 2015, they hope to leave much sooner. With the TV deal up and Fox looking for content right away, it would make sense to try to get out at the end of this season, if that could be negotiated."

Hard for me to believe that they can get all the problems(NCAA credits/exit fees/tv/new commish/adding teams/etc.)solved/dealt with in time to begin the new league in 2013-2014. I guess things could progress very quickly if they want out at the end of this season.

The current tv deal ends after this season. I don't know what they are going to do about tv during the intervening period between the end of this season and whenever this new league starts.

I thought the C7 didn't have to pay any exit fess, but I guess they do.

The C7 are the ones paying the bills for all of this. And the 5 new additions are the ones that are going to have to take a smaller cut(hopefully only taking a smaller cut for 5-10? years)in order to pay back the C7 for all their time/trouble/outstanding bills such as: Big East naming rights, lawyer fees, lost/forfeited NCAA credits, exit fees, etc.

I am wondering how much money it is costing to setup this new league?

bobber · #**145** 01-10-2013, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by xubrew

I think CBS Sports is also interested in this new league, and although they've been talking with Fox, I don't think a TV deal is in the stages of being finalized. At least I hope not. You shouldn't finalize a deal if you haven't heard all the pitches yet.

I also think Dayton will be a part of this. If I had to guess I'd say they've already been given indications that they will be included.

Just what I think. Take it for what it's worth.

The fact that the TV people seem to want 12 teams is reassuring. Ten teams and I'd be on edge, but with 12 I feel pretty confident.

Medford · #**146** 01-10-2013, 11:28 AM

Sean McManumus (sp?), head of CBS sports was quoted recently as saying they were interested. I don't know if that is, those fox numbers seem to be in the ballpark, lets make a pitch, or a "we're interested, but not at those rates".

longtimefan · #**147** 01-10-2013, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by xubrew

I also think Dayton will be a part of this. If I had to guess I'd say they've already been given indications that they will be included. Just what I think. Take it for what it's worth.

I hope you are more right on this than when you insisted the conference would be at most 9 or 10 teams. (Actually, I think you said it would be only 8 or 9.)

Bat'71 · #**148** 01-10-2013, 01:08 PM

Well, I may be wrong (don't all faint at once) but it appears that A-10 Commish McGlade is taking the Alfred E. Newman approach to BE 7 adventurism and the probable raids on the league...it's the old "What Me Worry", hunker down and hope for the best strategy (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...velopme/nTrf3/) To her credit (I guess) she claims to be strategic in confronting the situation as it develops, but yet indicates there's nothing she can do, but be reactive. Short of her ability to reopen and renegotiate a much sweeter broadcast package for the A-10, that may simply be the case. Let's face it, after due consideration, you really can't hope to keep some of your best schools in a Conference when your payout is about one-tenth of what a new league can offer them.

Alberto Strasse · #**149** 01-10-2013, 01:19 PM

I find it odd that CBS Sports may be involved with a new conference which is raiding the existing A-10 when they already have a relationship with the A-10. This has to be unsettling to the Commish. Unless that Commish is being recruited as part of the deal as well... Stay tuned.

bobber · #**150** 01-10-2013, 02:05 PM

The A10 story is the same as always. No TV network wants to air games from Gola Arena, Olean, NY or an empty Palumbo Center. They would be ratings disasters. Hence the low, low A10 payout.

The bottom feeders, of which there are too many in the A10, have ruined yet another chance for the conference to shine. McGlade is powerless under these circumstances.

Sea Bass · #**151** 01-10-2013, 02:10 PM

McGlade is stuck in a bad place. The A10 answer to the BE7 is to form a new conference that sheds the anvils dragging things down. Only then would they have a product that could compete. To do that they have to leave LaSalle, Fordham, SBU, Duquesne, etc behind. Obviously the current A10 commish cannot propose anything like that. McGlade has to play a losing hand and hope she doesn't go bust.

xubrew · #**152** 01-10-2013, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

I hope you are more right on this than when you insisted the conference would be at most 9 or 10 teams. (Actually, I think you said it would be only 8 or 9.)

I don't recall ever insisting it was going to be anything, at least not for the past year or so. I've done nothing more than speculate.

I guess that at one point several years ago I said that the eight of them would stay together, and that they'd work to get a deal with NBC, perhaps even starting their own network and affiliating with NBC. I stopped believing that when NBC turned Universal into an Olympic Sports channel instead, and I further stopped believing that when ND decided to bolt for the ACC shortly thereafter.

Since then I've learned to not believe anything is official until it is official.

I think that all seven teams wanted to break away, and that all wanted to add teams. They just couldn't agree if they wanted a nine, ten, or twelve team format. But, since they were in agreement as to who two of the teams would be, they would just start out at nine.

Now, I think they've since all gotten on board with going out to twelve, and that Dayton is one of the twelve. Of the five teams they're looking to add, I think UD is one they're fairly certain of, and that they have three candidates for the final two spots.

....But, I could be wrong. Things change very day, and sometimes several times every day, and nothing is official until it's official. UD, X, or anyone else for that matter, may not go anyplace.

FlyingArrow · #**153** 01-10-2013, 03:26 PM

Several have talked about the idea of the A-10 teams breaking off and forming their own league and then inviting BE7 members. In order to admit all 7 (the only way they'd join) and still have a voting advantage (so no unequal paydays) would be to have a 16 team conference. Finding 9 'worthy' teams that still leaves a viable A10 behind is not so easy.

Here are eight:
A-10: X, Butler, Dayton, St. Louis, St. Joseph's, VCU
MVC: Creighton, Wichita State

That leaves 8 teams in the A-10 and 8 in the MVC.

As a 9th team, perhaps Richmond and leave the A10 with only 7? Or poach another from MVC and leave them with 7? Or a traditional low-major standout like Davidson or Belmont or Murray State. I don't know if they have enough attendance, etc. Maybe George Mason?

Pointless exercise, I know, since it won't happen. People don't want a 16 team league and the A-10 teams aren't going to band together like that anyway. But going through it did help me see that there really aren't that many options the BE7 can talk to. There's a reason we only hear 7 names thrown out as possibilities.

Sea Bass · #**154** 01-10-2013, 03:47 PM

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...ioners-sources

Gilchrist's Autograph 2 · #**155** 01-10-2013, 04:42 PM

Xavier won't go for that. They want in with the Catholic 7 and they are trying to make sure Dayton is left out so the don't compete with us from a recruiting standpoint. This gives them a big edge over us for local talent
Posted via Mobile Device

NCkevi · #**156** 01-10-2013, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2

Xavier won't go for that. They want in with the Catholic 7 and they are trying to make sure Dayton is left out so the don't compete with us from a recruiting standpoint. This gives them a big edge over us for local talent
Posted via Mobile Device

Regardless of what conference we're in, x will have an advantage because of regular appearances the second weekend of the NCAA tournament - until UD can match that success, x will have an edge over us regardless of conference affiliations

SeasonTicketFan · #**157** 01-10-2013, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2

Xavier won't go for that. They want in with the Catholic 7 and they are trying to make sure Dayton is left out so the don't compete with us from a recruiting standpoint. This gives them a big edge over us for local talent
Posted via Mobile Device

Do UD and X compete for the same talent right now? Just asking.

UC claims they don't compete with UD for players.

X seems to attract different players than UD now as well.

longtimefan · #**158** 01-10-2013, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2

Xavier won't go for that. They want in with the Catholic 7 and they are trying to make sure Dayton is left out so they don't compete with us from a recruiting standpoint. Posted via Mobile Device

Source?

hawkoooo · #**159** 01-10-2013, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Source?

Of course there's no source, that claim is absurd. I am sure X and UD are working through this hand in hand.

Bat'71 · #**160** 01-10-2013, 07:35 PM

IMHO, UD and X have a healthy rivalry...it's beneficial to both schools, unlike perhaps Texas/Texas A&M or even Cinci/X. "X" doesn't feel threatened by UD (or vice versa), our teams have competed against each other for over 90 years (we have the Blackburn/McCafferty Trophy every year) and the students from both institutions are pretty similar, as is the educational philosophy. While I don't believe X would want to exclude us from any new Conference, and may even push for our inclusion, I don't believe our exclusion would be a deal breaker for them (nor would I expect it to be if the money in question is anything near what's being bandied about.*)

Good, fierce rivalries are what make college sporting events special to viewers and broadcasters alike. The Arena seldom rocks the way it does when X is in town, and the same thing goes for them when we're at their place in Cinci. Part of the beauty in all this is that it carries over to all our other sports as well. Personally, I'd hate to lose that. When UD Arena is rockin', there's no better venue in college sports...period.

*I still find that hard to believe.

Glen Clark · #**161** 01-10-2013, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sea Bass

McGlade is stuck in a bad place. The A10 answer to the BE7 is to form a new conference that sheds the anvils dragging things down. Only then would they have a product that could compete. To do that they have to leave LaSalle, Fordham, SBU, Duquesne, etc behind. Obviously the current A10 commish cannot propose anything like that. McGlade has to play a losing hand and hope she doesn't go bust.

Assuming McGlade doesn't jump ship with the departing teams, she will be the equivalent of the Horizon League (or Summit League or Ohio Valley Conference) commissioner, presiding over a respectable mid-level one-bid b-ball conference. She will still be employed, and I suspect she will do quite well for herself - she is a very capable commissioner. Adding Butler and VCU to the A-10 basically forced the BE7's hand - now we'll see how it plays out.

___________________
Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.

FortWrightFlyer · #**162** 01-10-2013, 10:14 PM

This whole conference things has me doing some unusual things...I've signed up for a twitter account, read other teams message boards, and compared endowment funds of just about every Catholic university.

After all of this reading and research I have only reached one conclusion.

Marquette fans are the most arrogant a-holes out there. You'd think their academics were on par with Harvard, their basketball team can compete with Kentucky...and the thought of ever being paired with a mid major from a conference like the A10 or Conference USA is just INSANE. Oh the difference 7 years can make.

301Lowes · #**163** 01-10-2013, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by FortWrightFlyer

This whole conference things has me doing some unusual things...I've signed up for a twitter account, read other teams message boards, and compared endowment funds of just about every Catholic university.

After all of this reading and research I have only reached one conclusion.

Marquette fans are the most arrogant a-holes out there. You'd think their academics were on par with Harvard, their basketball team can compete with Kentucky...and the thought of ever being paired with a mid major from a conference like the A10 or Conference USA is just INSANE. Oh the difference 7 years can make.

I'm a Milwaukee native and I can assure you the arrogance didn't start 7 yrs ago when they joined the BE. Their arrogance is a long running joke in the Milwaukee community(we call it the Marquette Mafia with a roll of our eyes). It's laughable given the mediocre status of most of their academic departments and the reputation they have in the business community. They're elite only among other MU grads. They are strongly overshadowed by UW; which has them by miles in every academic category.

Just ignore the MU arrogance. It isn't warranted and if you don't take it seriously can become a source of comedy for you.

FlyingArrow · #**164** 01-11-2013, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Glen Clark

Assuming McGlade doesn't jump ship with the departing teams, she will be the equivalent of the Horizon League (or Summit League or Ohio Valley Conference) commissioner, presiding over a respectable mid-level one-bid b-ball conference. She will still be employed, and I suspect she will do quite well for herself - she is a very capable commissioner. Adding Butler and VCU to the A-10 basically forced the BE7's hand - now we'll see how it plays out.

They won't be totally a one-bid league. GW, Richmond, perhaps VCU, probably St. Joe's, UMass until football takes them, Rhode Island. That's 6 teams that have been at-large worthy in the not too distant past (if not this year). In any given year, I'd expect one to be at-large worthy. So a tourney upset would make it a 2-bid league. In a good year 2 or 3 might have at-large worthy resumes. Although with Butler, the Horizon has been like that the past few years. And occasionally a Murray State or Davidson are in a similar situation. But this won't be a true one-bid league like the MEAC where every single team enters conference play with a losing record.

Gazoo · #**165** 01-11-2013, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer

What I got from an insider was that OP received "reasonable consideration" from Clemson for the missed tenure deal at UD. My guess was that it was an amount short of a mil, and enough to take the sting out of leaving the full amount on the Dayton table. All three parties appeared to want this job change to happen.

(Emphasis added)

That's all I'm saying. Given a reasonable review of all the factors in play I think all parties come to an agreement about what makes sense for everyone. It's not firing, and it's not quitting, it's accepting reality inside of a 3 way negotiation process.

UD: "We're struggling with the value you bring at this salary, we can't increase your pay."
OP: "I've got an offer to make $x dollars."
UD: "That's a great deal, you should take it, we don't think you're worth that much."
Clemson: "We can't compensate you for what you're leaving behind, but we can do THAT. Sign here."
OP: "Your response UD?"
UD: "You should go."

No acrimony on any side. He's not fired because he still had a job if he wanted it, he didn't really quit because he was partially nudged out.

The Worker · #**166** 01-11-2013, 12:46 PM

http://www.awfulannouncing.com/2013/...l-schools.html

Field of 64 · #**167** 01-11-2013, 01:17 PM

Thanks Worker for the link--very interesting insight. In passing, they also mentioned the 5 that I'm increasingly falling in love with: X, Butler, Dayton, Creighton, and VCU. I live in Richmond, couldn't buy into VCU as the 12th, but now am viewing it in the same way the Big 10 includes Northwestern--one oddball in the lot is OK. In addition to VCU's recent success, it brings one other strong attribute: it allows for a very compact East Division in the new conference, and a workable West Division--for all the non-revenue sports.

I've been a Flyer fan for my whole life (Dayton native and "85 grad), and I'm convinced--this is our last shot at being really relevant in college basketball. Let's hope we get the opportunity.

Dirty Sanchez · #**168** 01-11-2013, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gilchrist's Autograph 2

Xavier won't go for that. They want in with the Catholic 7 and they are trying to make sure Dayton is left out so the don't compete with us from a recruiting standpoint. This gives them a big edge over us for local talent
Posted via Mobile Device

Hahahaha, nice try.

I know for a fact it's a done deal and we are invited and headed to the new conference. TV wouldn't negotiate without knowing who the additional teams & markets are.

Done deal.

UDDoug · #**169** 01-11-2013, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gazoo

(Emphasis added)

That's all I'm saying. Given a reasonable review of all the factors in play I think all parties come to an agreement about what makes sense for everyone. It's not firing, and it's not quitting, it's accepting reality inside of a 3 way negotiation process.

UD: "We're struggling with the value you bring at this salary, we can't increase your pay."
OP: "I've got an offer to make $x dollars."
UD: "That's a great deal, you should take it, we don't think you're worth that much."
Clemson: "We can't compensate you for what you're leaving behind, but we can do THAT. Sign here."
OP: "Your response UD?"
UD: "You should go."

No acrimony on any side. He's not fired because he still had a job if he wanted it, he didn't really quit because he was partially nudged out.

It pretty much went like that. Included in the "We're struggling with the value you bring" was we aren't making the NCAA and advancing at the rate we expect". Pretty much the same dialogue, different players with Gregory.

And the main reason Jirsa was't hired.

flyerfanatic86 · #**170** 01-11-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty Sanchez

Hahahaha, nice try.

I know for a fact it's a done deal and we are invited and headed to the new conference. TV wouldn't negotiate without knowing who the additional teams & markets are.

Done deal.

I expected that the team names would be required before negotiations. Only makes sense. If you know we're in, do you know the others?

hawkoooo · #**171** 01-11-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow

They won't be totally a one-bid league. GW, Richmond, perhaps VCU, probably St. Joe's, UMass until football takes them, Rhode Island. That's 6 teams that have been at-large worthy in the not too distant past (if not this year). In any given year, I'd expect one to be at-large worthy. So a tourney upset would make it a 2-bid league. In a good year 2 or 3 might have at-large worthy resumes. Although with Butler, the Horizon has been like that the past few years. And occasionally a Murray State or Davidson are in a similar situation. But this won't be a true one-bid league like the MEAC where every single team enters conference play with a losing record.

There will also be options to improve the conference. You already mentioned Murray St. and Davidson. I believe Belmont, Siena, George Mason, CoC, and the four remaining "basketball-only" MVC schools (WSU, Bradley, Drake and Evansville, assuming Creighton leaves) might be interested in the A10.

If McGlade or whoever is left in control of the A10 plays their cards right it could still be a very, very good league.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**172** 01-11-2013, 10:47 PM

I don't understand this VCU talk, I really don't. Richmond makes some sense, but VCU is more than just an oddball, they're a downright bad fit for the league in the long-term IMO.

At least with Northwestern and the B1G, there was always and still is a long history of athletic and academic cooperation in which they grew alongside their conference mates.

longtimefan · #**173** 01-11-2013, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty Sanchez

I know for a fact it's a done deal and we are invited and headed to the new conference. TV wouldn't negotiate without knowing who the additional teams & markets are. Done deal.

Can you give us a hint as to how you know this - so I can start sleeping better?

xubrew · #**174** 01-12-2013, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05

I don't understand this VCU talk, I really don't. Richmond makes some sense, but VCU is more than just an oddball, they're a downright bad fit for the league in the long-term IMO.

At least with Northwestern and the B1G, there was always and still is a long history of athletic and academic cooperation in which they grew alongside their conference mates.

What's bad about them??

They've sustained success through three different coaching staffs, they've upgraded their facilities, they have a solid fanbase, they have a brand name that quite honestly is better than most of the rest of the Atlantic Ten, and they currently have a team that's better than most of the Atlantic Ten, if not all of the Atlantic Ten. If VCU were to come into this new league, they'd be much closer to the top of it than they would to the bottom of it almost every single year.

Academically, they're pretty solid. It's not Cal or UVA or Michigan or any place like that, but it has a respectable ranking as a national university.

I think they'd be a fantastic fit. It would be the only public university, but from an athletic department standpoint that really doesn't matter.

Whacker · #**175** 01-12-2013, 10:01 AM

Most important they do not have delusions of FBS football.

xubrew · #**176** 01-12-2013, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Whacker

Most important they do not have delusions of FBS football.

Exactly. They are a basketball centric school without major football. That's the important commonality that all these schools have. The fact that all are private and catholic (minus Butler) really doesn't matter much (if at all).

Avid Flyer · #**177** 01-12-2013, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by xubrew

Exactly. They are a basketball centric school without major football. That's the important commonality that all these schools have. The fact that all are private and catholic (minus Butler) really doesn't matter much (if at all).

Actually Butler is a private university just not catholic.

xubrew · #**178** 01-12-2013, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer

Actually Butler is a private university just not catholic.

Yes, I know that. When I said 'minus Butler' I was only referring to the Catholic part.

VCU is neither private nor catholic, but they're still a very good fit.

jack72 · #**179** 01-12-2013, 10:41 AM

What is with the trashing of VCU. They have a great following and great basketball. What is not to like. They will be as good or better than about half the teams in the league.

PinehurstFlyer · #**180** 01-12-2013, 11:09 AM

I do not think VCU is a great fit. For one, there fan base consists mostly of students. Most alumni who went to this school more than 15 years ago are probably surprised that they even have a basketball team. I went to a few VCU games in the late 80's, and they always had an empty arena. I guess I would call them fair weather fans. I doubt they travel well, probably don't travel at all. The school is respectable - mostly known for their art - their other programs-standard fare. Recent success has given them an opportunity to permanently move their program to a higher level. I just hope it is not at our expense. Our fans, anyway, deserve it more.

xubrew · #**181** 01-12-2013, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by PinehurstFlyer

I do not think VCU is a great fit. For one, there fan base consists mostly of students. Most alumni who went to this school more than 15 years ago are probably surprised that they even have a basketball team. I went to a few VCU games in the late 80's, and they always had an empty arena. I guess I would call them fair weather fans. I doubt they travel well, probably don't travel at all. The school is respectable - mostly known for their art - their other programs-standard fare. Recent success has given them an opportunity to permanently move their program to a higher level. I just hope it is not at our expense. Our fans, anyway, deserve it more.

SLU had sparse crowds in the years before Majerus got there. In the years between Romar and Majerus, their arena was seemingly less than half full almost all of the time. Nova has had sparse crowds for the last couple seasons, although it is better when they're winning. Same with DePaul and Seton Hall.

I'm sorry, but if your basis for thinking VCU is a bad fit is because the games you went to 25 years ago had sparse crowds, that's hardly a strong case that they're currently a weak program or a poor choice for the new league. 25 years ago, Gonzaga played in a gym, and couldn't fill it up half way either. Their fanbase may not compare to UD's, but it's not bad, and if you look at them hollistically (facilities, fans, brand name, NCAA Tourney appearances and success), they're probably better than a program like SLU. VCU's arena is always full. The only reason they don't have more people is because there is no more room, and it's been my experience that they do travel well.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**182** 01-12-2013, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by xubrew

What's bad about them??

They've sustained success through three different coaching staffs, they've upgraded their facilities, they have a solid fanbase, they have a brand name that quite honestly is better than most of the rest of the Atlantic Ten, and they currently have a team that's better than most of the Atlantic Ten, if not all of the Atlantic Ten. If VCU were to come into this new league, they'd be much closer to the top of it than they would to the bottom of it almost every single year.

Academically, they're pretty solid. It's not Cal or UVA or Michigan or any place like that, but it has a respectable ranking as a national university.

I think they'd be a fantastic fit. It would be the only public university, but from an athletic department standpoint that really doesn't matter.

I just think they're a poor overall institutional fit and specifically for basketball, they're banking on the limited recent success they've had in a weaker conference and due to the unpredictable and fickle nature of the single-elimination NCAA Tournament. And when Shaka Smart leaves (which I see as inevitable), I don't think they'll have staying power. Then the new league will be stuck with an oddball school that doesn't even have the one thing that made them palatable. This conference needs to be thinking long-term and not simply be a prisoner of the moment looking to add the latest temporary Johnny-Come-Lately.

rollo · #**183** 01-12-2013, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Glen Clark

Conference play was obviously BG's Achilles Heel -

In baseball vernacular, BG had warning track power.

We need a slugger.

xubrew · #**184** 01-12-2013, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05

I just think they're a poor overall institutional fit and specifically for basketball, they're banking on the limited recent success they've had in a weaker conference and due to the unpredictable and fickle nature of the single-elimination NCAA Tournament. And when Shaka Smart leaves (which I see as inevitable), I don't think they'll have staying power. Then the new league will be stuck with an oddball school that doesn't even have the one thing that made them palatable. This conference needs to be thinking long-term and not simply be a prisoner of the moment looking to add the latest temporary Johnny-Come-Lately.

I just don't think this is fair at all, and it is a very limited scope to look at VCU through. the fickle nature of the tournament, and the fickle nature of the selection committee has worked against them far more than it has worked for them. Anyone with eyes could have seen that throughout the year, they were way better than the seeds the committee gave them, but because they didn't have the wins on paper, they were given poorer seeds. "Limited success in a weaker conference" is somethign they've had to overcome, not something that's helped them.

VCU has been a solid program for the past ten years.

In 2004 they were a #13 seed and lost to Wake by a point.

They then lost their coach, but were solid the next two years, and in 2007 beat Duke as a #11 seed (at large range), and then lost to Maryland in overtime in the second.

In 2009, they were again a #11 seed (at large range), and lost to UCLA by a point.

In 2010, had it not been for a bad loss to James Madison, they probably get in as an at-large. They lost to Old Dominion in overtime in the Colonial Championship that year, who was actually a top 25 team. You may recall that Butler beat them on a last second shot in the 8/9 game of the NCAA Tournament. VCU also beat Old Dominion during the year.

2011 was the FF run,

2012 they made the round of 32 and nearly beat (and really should have beaten) Indiana.

They've been good for a decade, and they've done that despite playing in a weaker conference (which limits their opportunities at quality wins), and going through multiple coaching changes. They've upgraded their facilities, and their fan support as awesome. Now that they're in a better conference, I think they'll be an even better program.

I don't see how anyone can call them johnny come latelys.

Has SLU done more than that?? Has Creighton?? Even without the FF run, VCU still has more success than both SLU and Creighton combined over the last decade. An accomplished team from a weaker conference is hands down a better pick than an unaccomplished team from a good conference....like Seton Hall, or DePaul, or Saint John's, or Providence, or SLU. I won't put Creighton on that list, but if you look at Creighton and VCU side by side, VCU is stronger. Even without the FF, which is a hell of a credential to set aside, VCU is still probably slightly stronger.

PinehurstFlyer · #**185** 01-12-2013, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by xubrew

I just don't think this is fair at all, and it is a very limited scope to look at VCU through. the fickle nature of the tournament, and the fickle nature of the selection committee has worked against them far more than it has worked for them. Anyone with eyes could have seen that throughout the year, they were way better than the seeds the committee gave them, but because they didn't have the wins on paper, they were given poorer seeds. "Limited success in a weaker conference" is somethign they've had to overcome, not something that's helped them.

VCU has been a solid program for the past ten years.

In 2004 they were a #13 seed and lost to Wake by a point.

They then lost their coach, but were solid the next two years, and in 2007 beat Duke as a #11 seed (at large range), and then lost to Maryland in overtime in the second.

In 2009, they were again a #11 seed (at large range), and lost to UCLA by a point.

In 2010, had it not been for a bad loss to James Madison, they probably get in as an at-large. They lost to Old Dominion in overtime in the Colonial Championship that year, who was actually a top 25 team. You may recall that Butler beat them on a last second shot in the 8/9 game of the NCAA Tournament. VCU also beat Old Dominion during the year.

2011 was the FF run,

2012 they made the round of 32 and nearly beat (and really should have beaten) Indiana.

They've been good for a decade, and they've done that despite playing in a weaker conference (which limits their opportunities at quality wins), and going through multiple coaching changes. They've upgraded their facilities, and their fan support as awesome. Now that they're in a better conference, I think they'll be an even better program.

I don't see how anyone can call them johnny come latelys.

Has SLU done more than that?? Has Creighton?? Even without the FF run, VCU still has more success than both SLU and Creighton combined over the last decade. An accomplished team from a weaker conference is hands down a better pick than an unaccomplished team from a good conference....like Seton Hall, or DePaul, or Saint John's, or Providence, or SLU. I won't put Creighton on that list, but if you look at Creighton and VCU side by side, VCU is stronger. Even without the FF, which is a hell of a credential to set aside, VCU is still probably slightly stronger.

What an apologist! VCU is a commuter school! Do ya think the Cinci Alumni will put together a trip to see them play X? Or is that what you are afraid of lol? This school's taste for basketball will fall apart as soon as they have a couple of bad years, which will doom them to be a bottom feeder forever in a good conference. Not so Dayton, Creighton, etc.. St Louis would possibly be in the VCU category, so I agree there. The idea is to have proven durable programs, VCU is not. I would rank them behind Richmond.

UDDoug · #**186** 01-12-2013, 04:29 PM

Who cares if they are a commuter school. So are St Johns and Seton Hall.
Posted via Mobile Device

xubrew · #**187** 01-12-2013, 04:49 PM

I'm not making blanket statements. People are saying VCU is a bad choice, and that they're unproven, and then just leaving it at that.

I just listed multiple things that I consider to be "proven." It doesn't make me an apoligist. It's simply an assessment based on facts.

What has Creighton or SLU or Richmond done that is better than VCU?? Can you name something specific?? The ONLY thing I can think of is that Creighton has better attendance. VCU's attendance is still good, though, and they're better in nearly every measurable category. They have sustained success, and they're not simply riding a FF run.

The fact that VCU is a commuter school is about as relevant as the fact that I-64 goes through Richmond. That is to say, it's not relevant at all.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**188** 01-12-2013, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by xubrew

I just don't think this is fair at all, and it is a very limited scope to look at VCU through. the fickle nature of the tournament, and the fickle nature of the selection committee has worked against them far more than it has worked for them. Anyone with eyes could have seen that throughout the year, they were way better than the seeds the committee gave them, but because they didn't have the wins on paper, they were given poorer seeds. "Limited success in a weaker conference" is somethign they've had to overcome, not something that's helped them.

VCU has been a solid program for the past ten years.

In 2004 they were a #13 seed and lost to Wake by a point.

They then lost their coach, but were solid the next two years, and in 2007 beat Duke as a #11 seed (at large range), and then lost to Maryland in overtime in the second.

In 2009, they were again a #11 seed (at large range), and lost to UCLA by a point.

In 2010, had it not been for a bad loss to James Madison, they probably get in as an at-large. They lost to Old Dominion in overtime in the Colonial Championship that year, who was actually a top 25 team. You may recall that Butler beat them on a last second shot in the 8/9 game of the NCAA Tournament. VCU also beat Old Dominion during the year.

2011 was the FF run,

2012 they made the round of 32 and nearly beat (and really should have beaten) Indiana.

They've been good for a decade, and they've done that despite playing in a weaker conference (which limits their opportunities at quality wins), and going through multiple coaching changes. They've upgraded their facilities, and their fan support as awesome. Now that they're in a better conference, I think they'll be an even better program.

I don't see how anyone can call them johnny come latelys.

Has SLU done more than that?? Has Creighton?? Even without the FF run, VCU still has more success than both SLU and Creighton combined over the last decade. An accomplished team from a weaker conference is hands down a better pick than an unaccomplished team from a good conference....like Seton Hall, or DePaul, or Saint John's, or Providence, or SLU. I won't put Creighton on that list, but if you look at Creighton and VCU side by side, VCU is stronger. Even without the FF, which is a hell of a credential to set aside, VCU is still probably slightly stronger.

Without having access to the historic Pomeroy or Sagarin ratings (preferably pre-Tournament in each of the years you cited), I'm not willing to concede that they've been consistently under-seeded or occasionally snubbed. The sample size of a handful of close losses (and some of their wins, too) in the NCAA Tournament over the past decade, in my opinion, barely reinforce the argument you're making.

Have they been solid over the past decade or so? Absolutely. Does it warrant them being the only Southeastern and public school invitee into a conference of Northeastern/Midwestern private schools, of which they'd would likely be a member for the coming several decades? I'm just not convinced of that...

PinehurstFlyer · #**189** 01-13-2013, 10:24 AM

I maintain commuter school IS relevant. Does anyone here, for example, believe that Dayton would travel well if we were a commuter school? Heck NO!! Commuter schools make for fair weather fans and if you play them you will sell fewer tickets b/c their fans are all in Virginia. Look how Cincinnati drew fans when they were bad....

PinehurstFlyer · #**190** 01-13-2013, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

Who cares if they are a commuter school. So are St Johns and Seton Hall.
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Forgot to say.....you make my point!

xubrew · #**191** 01-13-2013, 11:34 AM

1. Louisville is a commuter school. So is San Diego State. So is UNLV. They all travel fine.

2. VCU DOES travel well. You haven't been paying attention if you don't think they do. They were filling their arena and traveling well before the Final Four run, and they were doing it without a whole lot of brand names on the schedule.

3. Hardly anyone travels well when they're losing. Take the Butler or Gonzaga teams from the early 90s, for instance. Even "major" programs like Kansas State and Baylor didn't have fans until recently. Pitt had no fans at their home or away games prior to Ben Howland, and Washington didn't have much of a fanbase prior to Romar.

4. (Perhaps the biggest thing that makes this a non-issue). Ticket allotments for the visiting team don't drive attendance. If for whatever reason you're depending on that, then you're in trouble. The visiting team typically has until a certain date, and then whatever isn't sold is given back to the home team. The overall effect on attendance is so minimal that it isn't even worth bringing up.

The fact that they are a commuter school is as irrelevant as anything could possibly be. This should be a basketball-centric conference, not a private-school-that-is-predominantly-residential-centric conference.

There aren't many programs that have done more to advance, elevate and sustain themselves in the last ten years than VCU has. Butler certainly has. San Diego State, Kansas State and Baylor have. Maybe Saint Mary's has. Other than that, no one that I can think of has built themselves up the way VCU has. Not only that, but when this process started, they had a lot less to work with than most of those other programs. As a college hoops fan, and an overall college sports fan, I don't see how anyone could reasonably not admire what they've done. How can people not be impressed by that?? They're outperforming the vast majority of programs that are being considered for this new conference, and for much of the time they did it with a lot less than what everyone else had. Imagine what they can do with equal footing. Just look at how good they're doing now that they're in the Atlantic Ten. They've done nothing other than elevate the Atlantic Ten, and they'd elevate the new league as well. It just kind of blows my mind that someone would go so far to say that they're a "bad fit".....and say so as if Fordham had been suggested.

You really have to go fishing to come up things to criticize them for. If the biggest concern is that they're a commuter school, then you really must be fishing.

Bat'71 · #**192** 01-13-2013, 12:23 PM

'Brew is right on the money...I really don't get this institutional snobbery, especially coming as it does from other UD fans. Geeze, we criticize Marquette supporters for some of the stuff they say about us and then we turn right around and sound like them when discussing other programs. VCU and Richmond have been good programs for a while, both have good histories and they generate solid fan support. I've always thought the Colonial Conference got too little respect in the past for the brand of basketball they offered, because it was a dam* good, competitive conference that was simply overshadowed in it's own back yard by the ACC and BE. Talk about "commuter" schools, UofL was a "commuter" school for most of it's existence (and maybe still is) and the last I looked they were doing pretty well, with rabid fan support. He**, when I was at UD, we probably had close to half the student population from the Dayton, SW Ohio area. Let's get over this "commuter" school garbage, it's a non-issue. BTW, we don't build ourselves up by tearing others down.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**193** 01-13-2013, 03:39 PM

It's not snobbery, I just don't think VCU is a good institutional fit for the conference and I think they're getting too much credit for their somewhat flukey 2011 Tournament run. If I'm honest, I don't think Butler is that great of an overall fit, either, but then again I always imagined this conference would be a collection of the most significant (i.e. primarily national) Catholic universities in major urban areas in the Northeast and Midwest.

xubrew · #**194** 01-13-2013, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05

It's not snobbery, I just don't think VCU is a good institutional fit for the conference and I think they're getting too much credit for their somewhat flukey 2011 Tournament run. If I'm honest, I don't think Butler is that great of an overall fit, either, but then again I always imagined this conference would be a collection of the most significant (i.e. primarily national) Catholic universities in major urban areas in the Northeast and Midwest.

I don't take your opinion as snobbery. I just think it's a difference of opinion.

I want you to understand that the Final Four run....at least to me....is not the catalyst of why I think they'd be a good fit. It's an emphasis of why I think they're a good fit. I think it emphasized a lot of what is good about their program, but I don't think the strength of their program lies entirely in the FF run. You seem to think that everyone is just enamored with a fluke Final Four run, when in reality I think there is so much more to them than just that. Truthfully, I thought that overall they had a better team last year than the team that made the Final Four, and I feel that way about this year's team as well I"m not saying that I expect them to go back to the FF this year, because like you've pointed out the NCAA Tournament can be fickle, but as a team, I think they've actually been better since the FF run.

Georgia Tech in 2003-04 was a flash in the pan. Valpo in 1998 (I think) was a flash in the pan. The Winthrop teams under Greg Marshall were a flash in the pan. I don't think VCU is. They've been good for ten years. The FF was easily their signature accomplishment, but it is by no means their only accomplishment. They've been good. They're good now. They have all the signs of remaining good in future years. They also have a brand name, and that is a huge asset to current and future TV deals, especially if we're looking at the OOC portion of the season.

....now, to the guy that thinks VCU will adversely effect everyone's attendance......that's just pure nonsense.

FlyerGuyer · #**195** 01-13-2013, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Talk about "commuter" schools, UofL was a "commuter" school for most of it's existence (and maybe still is) and the last I looked they were doing pretty well, with rabid fan support. He**, when I was at UD, we probably had close to half the student population from the Dayton, SW Ohio area. Let's get over this "commuter" school garbage, it's a non-issue. BTW, we don't build ourselves up by tearing others down.

We're talking about an institutional fit here. UofL would also not be a good institutional fit, despite that they have one of the best basketball programs in the country. Better than UD. Nobody is tearing down UofL or VCU.

This harkens back to the discussion about the A-10 being a random hodgepodge of institutional oddballs. I like the A-10, but let's face it: The conference simply makes no logical sense. It appears that you're looking at this strictly from the point of view of who has a good basketball team...lately. Yeah, VCU and Louisville have great basketball teams -- much better than UD lately -- but how do they fit institutionally with UD?

It's like the point I made on another thread about Rhode Island or Charlotte. I'm sure those are fine schools, but what do they have in common with UD?

Nothing, really. They are both public institutions located halfway across the country with no real historical or traditional connection to UD. They both just happened to have about the same level of basketball success as UD at the right time, and that's how they all ended up in a conference together. No rhyme or reason other than that.

It has nothing to do with UD being "better" or more snobby than those public institutions. UD is probably better in some ways and worse in some ways than those schools.

It has to do with logical cohesion in this new world of random institutional hodgepodge, like the talk about the A-10 going out and recruiting Belmont or George Mason because they kinda sorta have good basketball teams.

UDDoug · #**196** 01-14-2013, 06:33 AM

Institutional fit isn't as relevant as basketball and geographic fit. Meaning no football illussions and not on West Coast.

The Big East has always been a hodgepodge of public/private. So has the Big12, the ACC, the PAC12 and the old Big East. The Big 10 and SEC less so, but they have always had an outlier.

Football is changing the landscape. Not institutional fit. The public/private mix always has worked.
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Buster Goode · #**197** 01-14-2013, 07:56 AM

Geez. I wish we could have a flukey final 4 run.

Better yet, I'd take a flukey 12-win conference season. How about a flukey NCAA tournament win...that would match our total for the last 22 years combined. Pretenders.

Bat'71 · #**198** 01-14-2013, 07:58 AM

The Ivy League is a bit of a hodgepodge too. Cornell is a large semi-rural University that is part New York State land grant, while Penn, Columbia, Brown, Harvard and Yale are urban, Princeton is suburban and Dartmouth is down right rural. Arguably, Harvard, Yale and Princeton are the cream of the crop...nobody's going to confuse them with Brown or Cornell.

FWIW, UD is not part of the group forming this new Conference...for anyone of us to start opining on who is, or is not, acceptable is a little ludicrous; for us to start denigrating any school's BB bona fides, especially when the school being criticized was recently in the FF, is even more ludicrous. Does anyone know how we made our run to the FF back in '67? We pulled a few games right out of our boo-tox to make that a magical year...we truly were a Cinderella team that year. So lets stop casting dispersions at VCU's record...it's a tad unseemly.

UDDoug · #**199** 01-14-2013, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Buster Goode

Geez. I wish we could have a flukey final 4 run.

Better yet, I'd take a flukey 12-win conference season. How about a flukey NCAA tournament win...that would match our total for the last 22 years combined. Pretenders.

We did. 1967. And an Elite 8 in 1984. One of each in 45 years is a fluke.

UACFlyer · #**200** 01-14-2013, 09:50 AM

I went to grad school at Northwestern...so have always followed NU affairs. Of course, NU is a very poor institutional fit for the Big Ten, even though NU was a charter member, if I recall correctly.

After graduating and after Ara Parseghian (sp?) was no longer coach, I recall listening to an interview with Ara. He mentioned that NU's institutional difference with the other BT schools, all large publics, was, indeed, a very big deal. He said that NU was always on the short end of 9-1 votes on just about everything.

With one private school in the BT that doesn't matter much...they always lose. But with a mix of schools like the old Big East and the A10, both having a mix of institutional types, differences can be very important and can block meaningful action and decisions. A very good case can be made that if the BE FB and BB schools had split several years ago the BE would be a thriving FB conference today having a large TV deal.

Now VCU would be the only large public school in a new C7 conference. Maybe they would overlook that. But, for sure, VCU administrators would be mindful of the fact that conferences have to make decisions about many things...and they can be sure that VCU's position on those "things" would almost always be at odds with it Catholic partners.

Important? Yes. A showstopper? Probably not. But, it matters.