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  #601  
Old 02-18-2018, 08:10 AM
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“Very sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign - there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!“

Great leadership in a time of tragedy.....
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  #602  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:25 AM
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I just saw an article with a headline about what the kids at the school shooting 'felt about guns' as if that article didn't have an obvious hidden agenda behind it. Of course a bunch of 14-18 year old kids, scared out of their wits are going to want all guns removed from the universe.

But a better question - and one I and you all know will never be asked - is 'Do you think this could have been prevented if your teachers were allowed to legally carry a gun?'. We all know the answer to this question too, which is why it'll never be posed.

F*#^ing liberal media...
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  #603  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:11 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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C'mon rollo.....

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I just saw an article with a headline about what the kids at the school shooting 'felt about guns' as if that article didn't have an obvious hidden agenda behind it. Of course a bunch of 14-18 year old kids, scared out of their wits are going to want all guns removed from the universe.

But a better question - and one I and you all know will never be asked - is 'Do you think this could have been prevented if your teachers were allowed to legally carry a gun?'. We all know the answer to this question too, which is why it'll never be posed.

F*#^ing liberal media...
What do you mean "never" asked? Of course it's asked and acted upon. In my state after Sandy Hook some towns added armed guards at their schools, others opted for arming teachers on a voluntary basis,.....it was a local decision.

A better question that you might consider asking yourself is...has American society reached the point where it's a good idea to have armed guards at schools, armed teachers, armed ushers in churches, firearm training for priests....so that everyone is safer in case a guy bursts into the school, church, etc., blazing away.

What we need is laws that make it very, very difficult for someone who should not be able to acquire guns...especially semi automatics....from easily obtaining them. To the contrary, Parkland shows that it is very, very easy for such a person to legally purchase weapons that they should not have. Sandy Hook showed that is very, very easy for a seriously disturbed person to legally obtain access to weapons he/she should not have.

Closing loopholes in laws without inconveniencing law abiding citizens of sound mind should not be difficult . But if the NRA opposes every attempt to tighten laws it becomes nearly impossible.

This morning I read that some states have very tough laws for obtaining hand guns. But, historically laws covering "long guns" like shot guns, bolt action rifles, other similar types traditionally used for hunting and sport can be obtained easily even by young teenagers in those states. Incredibly, AR-15s and their types have been lumped in with "long guns" in those states so that even teens can acquire them legally. The FL kid just turned 18, I think.

Now c'mon rollo.....there are one or two things we can address in addition to arming school teachers.
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  #604  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
A better question that you might consider asking yourself is...has American society reached the point where it's a good idea to have armed guards at schools, armed teachers, armed ushers in churches, firearm training for priests....so that everyone is safer in case a guy bursts into the school, church, etc., blazing away.
It's always been a good idea but the sheep don't want to talk about it when things are going good. I will tell you that any church or school I am in is safer when I am there. At no point in time is it less safe.

People are scared of good guys with guns until the bad guys show up.
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  #605  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:51 AM
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But....

Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
It's always been a good idea but the sheep don't want to talk about it when things are going good. I will tell you that any church or school I am in is safer when I am there. At no point in time is it less safe.

People are scared of good guys with guns until the bad guys show up.
But you are a trained, experienced law enforcement officer....hardly typical.
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  #606  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
A good start would be to stop with all the violence in movies and video games, and some of our music. Kids are raised on violence before they ever own a gun. We used to be raised on respect and being able to take an insult or negative happening without lashing out. Not anymore, as the media details with little negative comment, sports fights, driver rage, tearing down a statue, violent protests and illegal immigrants breaking the law. Everyone looks for the silver bullet, but the root cause problems are many, and not as simple as gun restrictions.
Jack, I feel the same way. I remember watching an eight year old playing a video game. She said "she is my *****, I have to kill her" I don't think everyone can easily differentiate between killing someone on a video game and doing it for real. I don't think they realize there might be ramifications. But, so many people are walking around angry looking for confrontations.

I ran across the article below on the following website which talks about why people feel so angry. It is an order page but it talks about the growing disparity between the rich and working americans. I am not affiliated with this website or product in any way. But, I do share their opinions on the biggest issue the country faces along with dept.

http://thecrux.com/dyncontent/multim...affid&s1=reqid
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  #607  
Old 02-18-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But you are a trained, experienced law enforcement officer....hardly typical.
Then increase the standard for a CCW.

Some of my closest buddies are permit holders.

1. One former deputy in Florida...Former Marine...works at the base and is better with a gun than many active cops....intel guy at the base
2. One corn fed country boy that was born with a firearm in his hand. Can out shoot just about anyone...maintenance supervisor at a school district
3. One who has been shooting since he was a young kid. Not as good of a shot as the others, but can hit center mass from distances that are well above and beyond what the state required. Pharmaceutical sales...
4. Two that are avid hunters and outdoorsmen...construction...tile setter
5. One who shoots trap and builds firearms. He obviously knows what he is doing. School teacher
6. One guy who just got his CCW permit 2 years ago. Is a bare minimum shooter and also doesn't carry all of the time. Financial planner

So....this list above isn't all that unusual....especially for people that live in the suburbs or the outskirts of a metro area in the midwest.

I'm not saying you are...but don't blow smoke up my ass about being fairly highly trained by thinking that the average gun owner/shooter/enthusiast/permit holder isn't. I know and shoot with these guys. I wold trust all of them to protect my family should I not be there. What is even more surprising to the general public, is the jobs that they hold....and where they could be at any given time to make places safer. Hospitals...Dr's offices...schools...

This isn't just cops, former military, and a bunch of hillbilly's that are proficient...it is the guy wearing a shirt and tie driving that company car from appointment to appointment.
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  #608  
Old 02-18-2018, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
This isn't just cops, former military, and a bunch of hillbilly's that are proficient...it is the guy wearing a shirt and tie driving that company car from appointment to appointment.
Great post- Similar story here, but we also have quite a few Female friends who have CCW and are decent shot as well. A nurse, paramedic, on road sales rep, accountant, insurance agent and financial planner, just to name a few.
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  #609  
Old 02-18-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
“Very sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign - there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!“

Great leadership in a time of tragedy.....
Just embarrassing. That tweet says it all about him. It's all about ME
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  #610  
Old 02-19-2018, 07:38 AM
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How Republicans Have Been Making Gun Laws Worse Under Trump:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...der-trump.html
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  #611  
Old 02-19-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
How Republicans Have Been Making Gun Laws Worse Under Trump:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...der-trump.html
FAKE news. Sensationalism.

I refuse to take the gospel from any writer who states there have been 18 school shootings this year. This proves they have not done their homework and only have an agenda to push.

These "shootings" are on that list...

PTSD military vet kills himself in a school parking lot

An accidental discharge at a Criminal Justice academy class during training

A third grader somehow pulled the trigger on a gun a SRO had on his belt causing an AD

A stray bullet from an off campus shooting hit a window on a college campus

A student committed suicide on school grounds

A car pulled into a parking lot on a college campus and shots were fired between individuals in the car

A student had a gun on a campus...got into an argument...ran off of campus and fired the gun into the air

Two people got into a fight at a HS basketball game...the fight went to the parking lot where one party was shot at from a moving vehicle fleeing the fight

Person at a frat party was shot after an argument

Two students robbed and shot another student in a school parking lot after hours

An adult shot another person outside a school following a basketball game

A student brought a gun to school and it went off hitting the floor..


But what the hell...it sounds a lot better to say mad men walking into schools and gunned down poor children 18 times this year....don't even get me started on the other 200 that the news likes to spout off.

1 shooting is too many...but don't sit here and used inflated BS numbers.

Last edited by shocka43; 02-19-2018 at 08:10 AM..
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  #612  
Old 02-19-2018, 08:07 AM
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Nothing fake about it, shocka43:

In December 2016, the Obama administration finalized a rule that would have added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and deemed unfit to handle their own finances to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The rule was written in response to the massacre in Newtown and the Obama administration predicted it would have added 75,000 people to the national database.

Both the NRA and the ACLU said the law violated the Second Amendment rights of the mentally ill without due process, and Congress quickly voted to overturn the rule, mostly on party lines. President Trump signed the measure into law in February 2017, with no public signing ceremony. Since then Trump has continued to say mass shootings are a “mental-health problem,” not a gun problem.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Nothing fake about it, shocka43:

In December 2016, the Obama administration finalized a rule that would have added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and deemed unfit to handle their own finances to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The rule was written in response to the massacre in Newtown and the Obama administration predicted it would have added 75,000 people to the national database.

Both the NRA and the ACLU said the law violated the Second Amendment rights of the mentally ill without due process, and Congress quickly voted to overturn the rule, mostly on party lines. President Trump signed the measure into law in February 2017, with no public signing ceremony. Since then Trump has continued to say mass shootings are a “mental-health problem,” not a gun problem.

Back it up and actually read the thread and read the actual legislation.

That bill also discriminated anyone who was labeled "mentally disabled". Not mentally ill or "crazy" as you would like to assume. It labeled anyone who received SSI benefits due to a mental disability...

You guys want to protect the rights of the mentally disabled right?

4th amendment is only important when it furthers your cause.

Go back to the Trump bashing thread...not going to rehash an argument with someone who refuses to pay attention and educate themselves over the course of this thread. It's already been discussed.

Last edited by shocka43; 02-19-2018 at 09:41 AM..
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  #614  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:04 AM
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Why does it always seem that the shooter in these mass killings has been on some kind of psychotropic drugs? As the New American magazine pointed out this week, at least ten high profile mass shootings have been committed by individuals who “were either on — or just recently coming off of — psychiatric medications.” The young killer in Florida was no different. According to his aunt, he had been on these medications to treat mental problems.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...yond-politics/
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:05 PM
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http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/18/...-new-gun-bans/

According to Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) statistics, only 2.2 percent of murders in the U.S. over the last five years were committed with rifles. Shotguns were used in 2.1 percent of murders. The weapon of choice for most killers in this country is not the much-villified AR-15, but the simple handgun, which was used in more than 31,000 murders between 2012 and 2016, the most recent five years for which data are available. In fact, the FBI data show that you are more likely to be stabbed to death (11.9 percent of all murders) or killed by someone’s hands, fists, or feet (5.1 percent) than you are to be killed by any type of rifle, let alone an AR-15. Rifle bans, even if they were practical, effective, and constitutional, still wouldn’t stop the overwhelming majority of murders in the U.S.
In many ways, though, the data are beside the point, because what is being debated right now is not guns or gun control. Guns are just a proxy for a much larger philosophical debate about the nature of man. Can evil be regulated away if we just put certain tools under lock and key? Can murder be driven into extinction through the right mix of technocratic regulations?
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:46 PM
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Stats

Comparing how many were killed by various means to show that AR-15s, for example, are not a hazard...or to claim it's about the "evil of man" makes little sense.

9/11 resulted in about one tenth the number killed in car accidents....so 9/11 didn't matter much...or we should ban cars?

As for the "evil of man" or mental illness being the key issue...I doubt if Brits are any less evil than Americans or any healthier mentally. But take a look at their firearm death rate.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Comparing how many were killed by various means to show that AR-15s, for example, are not a hazard...or to claim it's about the "evil of man" makes little sense.

9/11 resulted in about one tenth the number killed in car accidents....so 9/11 didn't matter much...or we should ban cars?

As for the "evil of man" or mental illness being the key issue...I doubt if Brits are any less evil than Americans or any healthier mentally. But take a look at their firearm death rate.
I don't believe that was posted to downplay the weapon used as much as it does to show how insignificant those "scary guns" are in the big picture.

They ALL matter. Every single person killed in this country matters to someone. Except for child molesters and cop killers.

The main point is that we focus primarily on this evil semi-automatic rifle versus how to reduce gun violence in America. I want there to be 4 months without a mass shooting in America...and in that 4 months I want to count how many gun control activists actually get up in arms about the daily violence in America. In addition to focusing on every single mass shooting, people need to get their panties in a bunch with the other 31,000 killed.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:42 PM
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/o...tion%2Fopinion

LA program that is hailed for interagency cooperation in addressing potential shooters.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Comparing how many were killed by various means to show that AR-15s, for example, are not a hazard...or to claim it's about the "evil of man" makes little sense.

9/11 resulted in about one tenth the number killed in car accidents....so 9/11 didn't matter much...or we should ban cars?

As for the "evil of man" or mental illness being the key issue...I doubt if Brits are any less evil than Americans or any healthier mentally. But take a look at their firearm death rate.
UAC,

We all get it, you are in the “ if someone poops their pants, everyone must wear diapers” camp. We are not Britain; we are not Australia; we are not Western Europe. Grabbing guns from law abiding citizens makes as much sense as banning cars because some jackwads can’t take a taxi after a few drinks.
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  #620  
Old 02-19-2018, 04:46 PM
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Context

Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I don't believe that was posted to downplay the weapon used as much as it does to show how insignificant those "scary guns" are in the big picture.

They ALL matter. Every single person killed in this country matters to someone. Except for child molesters and cop killers.

The main point is that we focus primarily on this evil semi-automatic rifle versus how to reduce gun violence in America. I want there to be 4 months without a mass shooting in America...and in that 4 months I want to count how many gun control activists actually get up in arms about the daily violence in America. In addition to focusing on every single mass shooting, people need to get their panties in a bunch with the other 31,000 killed.
shocka, with all due respect I think you're missing an important point....context.

It is well known that hand guns kill far more than AR-15s. But ordinary rifles, pistols, shot guns, etc. were designed for a different purpose and have an entirely different character than AR-15s and their like.

On the very day of the brutal murder of 25 1st graders at Sandy Hook there were more people killed with hand guns....possibly many more. But context and specific circumstances matter greatly. In less than 5 minutes the Sandy Hook killer poured out over 150 rounds from his AR-15. If he wasn't so inept the number of helpless children killed could easily have been well over 100.....in a grade school!

I cannot believe that you don't appreciate the distinction between such circumstances and the ones involved in the other firearm deaths that occurred on the same day as Sandy Hook.

Frankly the tone of your remarks sounds cold.

In spite of your extensive experience you may never have been close to a mass killing of the Sandy Hook or Parkland variety. Proximity matters. I found that 9/11 was viewed quite differently depending on how far Americans lived from NYC. Of course everyone saw the event live and understood its significance. But essentially all the ~ 3000 killed on 9/11 lived in NY, NJ or CT, my state. For many weeks after 9/11 hundreds of funerals were being held in those states as bodies (and parts) were recovered. The dynamic was very different in the rest of the Country far removed from NYC.

I'd wager that had Adam Lanza lived in a luxurious home in Oakwood...and had the school he entered been Holy Angels...and had the killings come to be referred to as the Dayton massacre or the UD massacre...and had you been one of the officers on the scene,.....today you would not be talking about "the other 31,000 killed" in the manner that you do.

The significance of mass shootings in a grade school or similar venue is of an entirely different nature than the thousands of essentially individual shootings that occur annually. You must know that. Shocka, those "scary guns" are not insignificant even in the big picture.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
It is well known that hand guns kill far more than AR-15s. But ordinary rifles, pistols, shot guns, etc. were designed for a different purpose and have an entirely different character than AR-15s and their like.

On the very day of the brutal murder of 25 1st graders at Sandy Hook there were more people killed with hand guns....possibly many more. But context and specific circumstances matter greatly. In less than 5 minutes the Sandy Hook killer poured out over 150 rounds from his AR-15. If he wasn't so inept the number of helpless children killed could easily have been well over 100.....in a grade school!

I cannot believe that you don't appreciate the distinction between such circumstances and the ones involved in the other firearm deaths that occurred on the same day as Sandy Hook.
I dont mean to sound cold too, but I fail to see the distinction myself. Could you elaborate? You do realize an AR15 does not shoot any faster, nor have the capacity to carry any more rounds in a magazine than a standard pistol. They are functionally and materially identical in both speed and capacity and reloading potential. Other than chambered round and barrel length, there is no mechanical difference.

Seung Hui Cho killed far more on the Virginia Tech campus with a 9mm and .22 handgun. There is no evidence of any kind that equates chambered round or barrel length to increases in either shootings themselves or mass shootings. In fact its precisely the opposite. You stand a better chance of dying from a tornado than a long gun.

When someone breaks into my home at 3am and Im in my pajamas, I dont want fewer options. I want every option and every tactical advantage to live another day. It may mean hiding in my closet until the encounter is over. But it might also mean grabbing a 9mm or grabbing an AR15. But at least I have all options on the table -- I dont have to use the option but its nice to know I have it.

Imagine if some of those women had a gun when Harvey Weinstein was doing his thing. The man should be as dead as fried chicken. Same with the Olympic trainer.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:07 PM
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UAC....you've got no clue what I've seen and been around. Don't even go there.

There is nothing cold. It is called the reality to people who know what the real threats are and how to prevent them...not some fantasy land where legislation keeps people safe. There are books of legislation feet thick that only keep people safe if people choose to follow the laws.

Your opinion of what is cold is the truth. Bury your head in the sand hoping that legislation cures the ills of this world. I will sit here perfectly comfortable being able to keep myself, my family, and my friends safe knowing that I value personal protection and situational awareness. I won't be waiting for DC to fix the problem.

Don't patronize me with some bull**** and assume you know how witnessing death and violence repeatedly impacts opinion. When the "I lived close to a city where people died" is an attempt to modify my opinion is BS.

You know what the overwhelming majority of cops say that have been to mass killings of kids? That we need to better protect our schools with firearms, training, and physical security. How do I know that? Because I have been in training with cops that have responded to these incidents and train us. These cops aren't going out and stating that we need gun control.

Yes...kids in schools being killed are different...you know why? Because they are innocent and had no means of protecting themselves. Even more disturbing, the institutions that their care was entrusted to took soft and minimal approaches to ensuring their safety.

How many mass shootings inside Disney World? NFL games? FOP conventions? Congress? Airports?

Why in the hell aren't we taking the same precautions we do at fuggin amusement parks and protect our schools? It's because they are controlled by liberal institutions that don't take this **** serious. They will sit back like we are and debate what needs to happen to keep kids safe instead of grabbing the situation by the balls and dealing with it.

You know why I care....because I have kids in school. I want them to come home safe...and with nearly two decades of witnessing the worst of the worst and understanding the psychology of criminals I know that some BS legislation isn't going to keep them safe. It will be proactive parents, community leaders, school board presidents, and school staff to realize what needs to happen to keep schools safe. Not waiting on DC to ban black rifles that shoot the same as wood stocked hunting rifles.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:49 PM
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The far-right smear campaign by Gateway Pundit against students who survived the Parkland massacre:

https://thinkprogress.org/the-new-sm...-b71c1e1d722c/

This is F'ing disgusting. Smearing Parkland student David Hogg with an "Exposed" stamp on his picture because his dad is a retired FBI agent--which he admitted on national TV:



These BS conspiracy theories were retweeted by that bastion of decorum, Donald Trump, Jr. What an absolute toad Half Scoop is.

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Old 02-20-2018, 12:59 PM
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Trump is open to having more gun control, it is about time.
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Old 02-20-2018, 01:35 PM
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Another important difference.....

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I dont mean to sound cold too, but I fail to see the distinction myself. Could you elaborate? You do realize an AR15 does not shoot any faster, nor have the capacity to carry any more rounds in a magazine than a standard pistol. They are functionally and materially identical in both speed and capacity and reloading potential. Other than chambered round and barrel length, there is no mechanical difference.
I'm not sure what a "standard pistol" is....but from what I've read an AR15 can be fired at about 45-60 rounds a minute, roughly once per second. I don't know anything about pistol magazine size....but it seems I've read that AR15 magazines are in the 20,30,40 range. I suppose you're saying that automatic pistols have similarly sized magazines. And I'm guessing you own both.

I can think of a difference between the AR15s and other commonly used firearms.....impact damage related to round speed (kinetic energy). There are quite a few articles by trauma surgeons re the damage caused by AR15 round impact...in fact I read one in this morning's paper.

I have no personal knowledge about this, whatsoever, so I'm just repeating what I read. It's this: impact of an AR15 round to the head or torso is almost like an explosion and more often than not fatal....because of the high round speed and resulting shock wave produced upon impact, ...bones and organs even "near" the round path can be destroyed. No need for more ugly details...but the bottom line was that being struck by a round fired from an AR15 is nothing like being hit by a bullet from a "standard" pistol or rifle.

True? False? Misleading? I don't know...but as described it is an important "non-mechanical" difference not related to firing speed or magazine size....that, if true as described, is highly significant in mass shootings of even short duration, e.g., a few minutes.

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Old 02-20-2018, 01:47 PM
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This problem needs an IMMEDIATE solution, and anyone suggesting further gun control legislation, that will be legally appealed and eventually thrown out of court, isn't helping anyone, anywhere. As long as the 2nd Amendment exists, we need get away from any talk of gun bans/confiscation and work on making schools safe for our kids TODAY!

Which is why I applaud the Edgewood Schools, who - as I posted this weekend - voted 4-0 to allow Administrators to get legally certified to carry weapons on campus.

That, my minions, is the Equal-and-Opposite common sense solution to active shooter fears.

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Old 02-20-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
This problem needs an IMMEDIATE solution, and anyone suggesting further gun control legislation, that will be legally appealed and eventually thrown out of court, isn't helping anyone, anywhere. As long as the 2nd Amendment exists, we need get away from any talk of gun bans/confiscation and work on making schools safe for our kids TODAY!

Which is why I applaud the Edgewood Schools, who - as I posted this weekend - voted 4-0 to allow Administrators to get legally certified to carry weapons on campus.

That, my minions, is the Equal-and-Opposite common sense solution to active shooter fears.

King Rollo the Superintendent...OUT!
Rollo, does this include teachers too? I just assume administrators to mean principals, superintendents and higher positions.

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Old 02-20-2018, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by foolishpride View Post
Rollo, does this include teachers too? I just assume administrators to mean principals, superintendents and higher positions.

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Administrators...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...KSIwwYaW3AOCO/

"Edgewood City Schools has become the first Southwest Ohio school district, and at least the second in the state, to pass a concealed carry law, allowing administrators to carry firearms in school buildings and on school grounds...According to Edgewood’s policy, the administrator who wants the training must first be authorized by the school board. They then must obtain a concealed carry license from the state. If they already have that license, they must also have basic peace officer certification from the Ohio Officer Training Academy, or 20 years of experience as a law enforcement officer."
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Old 02-20-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Administrators...

"
Well that is a good start, but why not the teachers? The janitor? The cook? Anyone who has passed the class and went through the training should be allowed to carry. Safety in numbers.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:13 PM
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Why is no one questioning these medications – all of which come with labels warning of horrific side effects? Perhaps one reason they are ignored is that the pharmaceutical industry spends billions of dollars lobbying Congress.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/02/...yond-politics/
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:51 PM
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We have two neighbors against guns as they are the problem. So we suggested they change their signs in the front lawn from being against guns to "gun free home here".

After all at least they would save a burglars life..
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:08 PM
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When you use your love for the 2nd amendment to justify trampling the 1st, you’ve got problems...

https://www.chron.com/news/education...d-12628365.php
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:24 AM
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An hour-by-hour comparison of Trump and Obama responding to school shootings

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video...=.66d0c96644a9
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:05 AM
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Not thorough enough. I want to see second by second. Why do you post this drivel from the WaPo?
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:19 AM
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This is the crap that's going on....

https://www.local10.com/video/school...ium%3Dsharebar
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Not thorough enough.
You know how I know that you didn't watch this?
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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I did watch it. Selectively picking clips to make one subject look good and the other look bad is hardly riveting. We all know the WaPo hates Trump and will do anything to make him look bad, especially when compared to Obama and selective clips of him.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:08 PM
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Always a good idea to turn off location services when you're pretending to be a southern Republican
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:09 PM
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/966802599268798465

BREAKING: Sheriff: Deputy on duty at school where 17 were killed never went inside to engage shooter and has now resigned.

Dude probably knew a 9mm was no match for an AR-15.
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zmz723 View Post
https://twitter.com/AP/status/966802599268798465

BREAKING: Sheriff: Deputy on duty at school where 17 were killed never went inside to engage shooter and has now resigned.

Dude probably knew a 9mm was no match for an AR-15.
My guess is the deputy never knew what the weapon was. Unfortunately you never know how you are going to react in that situation until you are in that situation.

He would have the element of surprise on his side because he heard the shots firing plus you never know how the assailant is going to react when he is facing a live weapon.

It is a shame he did not try. He would have at the very least distracted him from his intended targets.
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  #641  
Old 02-22-2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zmz723 View Post
Dude probably knew a 9mm was no match for an AR-15.
Why is that.
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:14 PM
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So, just do this, this, this...problem solved, yeah

Random coments...no significance to order:

1. Just watched Fox....Mad River and Sidney featured re arming of teachers.
Sounds good....may deter...but if the practice becomes wide spread nationally how long do you think it will be before a teacher makes a mistake or misinterprets a situation...or encounters the real thing and panics...and winds up firing and killing one or more students or another teacher? How long?

Or, contrary to that...how long before a situation arises in which it's clear that an armed teacher had the opportunity to save lives and did not act?

2. Armed guards are better, right....they're trained. Well as details from Parkland come out it appears as if the "trained armed guard" acted so poorly that it cost him his job. That report may change as facts emerge...but that's the current story.

3. Just make sure people with mental illness can't get their hands on guns. Easy, right? Wrong! Exceptionally complicated. Millions of law biding citizens suffer from mental illness...depression, serious depression, is common. Just try preventing such people from buying guns if they want to. The lawyers will love it....cases will drag on forever. And we'll never know which of those ill people pose a threat....until...

4. So, what about the law abiding citizen with no prior involvement with the law...no prior evidence of any sort of mental illness....as upstanding a citizen as you'll ever find. But, he/she drinks...occasionally to excess...and no one even knows that, except, perhaps, close family members. We all know that highly intoxicated people often become "different people" when drunk....or, at a minimum their judgement is very poor and behavior is erratic. Armed while drunk they pose a serious risk. Just try and keep guns away from those people...people who occasionally drink to excess but are "law abiding citizens".

Yesterday in my town about one mile from house a guy was at a restaurant...a restaurant with a bar...typical situation. He had been there for some time and was clearly intoxicated and getting loud. When asked to leave he made the following comment: "I have an AR15 in the back of my truck and I'm gonna spray everyone". That comment was not ignored...the police were called. When they arrived just minutes later the guy was still there...sitting in his truck....there was no AR15 in the truck. The police administered a test to confirm that he was over the legal limit. That and his AR15 remark were sufficient to obtain a warrant to search the guy's home where, sure enough, they found a loaded AR15 and boxes of ammunition. I'll bet the number of similar situations occurring daily in a country the size of ours is countless.

The guy is free on bond and, with no record, even of drunk driving, I'm guessing he'll get a reprimand and probation of sort. Not even a DUI because he wasn't DUI, although he intended to.

How many thousands, tens of thousands (?) of guys who own AR15s, once in a while become intoxicated accompanied by a change in personality? Isn't that a great risk?
______

I'm a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences. With that in mind, I'd urge caution while implementing these reasonable-sounding ways to protect our soft targets from people with guns who shouldn't have them. ...or to rely on much stricter background checks. No doubt that sometimes,...hopefully most times....events will unfold as planned. But, for sure, not always. And there will be some unpleasant, unanticipated surprises.
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zmz723 View Post
https://twitter.com/AP/status/966802599268798465

BREAKING: Sheriff: Deputy on duty at school where 17 were killed never went inside to engage shooter and has now resigned.
Better put him on suicide watch...

And as a second point...maybe that's the reason this officer was in the schools to begin with...wasn't cut out for real police work. Gives the good SRO's a bad name.
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  #644  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:35 PM
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We might not have to be perfect

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Random coments...no significance to order:

1. Just watched Fox....Mad River and Sidney featured re arming of teachers.
Sounds good....may deter...but if the practice becomes wide spread nationally how long do you think it will be before a teacher makes a mistake or misinterprets a situation...or encounters the real thing and panics...and winds up firing and killing one or more students or another teacher? How long?

Or, contrary to that...how long before a situation arises in which it's clear that an armed teacher had the opportunity to save lives and did not act?

2. Armed guards are better, right....they're trained. Well as details from Parkland come out it appears as if the "trained armed guard" acted so poorly that it cost him his job. That report may change as facts emerge...but that's the current story.

3. Just make sure people with mental illness can't get their hands on guns. Easy, right? Wrong! Exceptionally complicated. Millions of law biding citizens suffer from mental illness...depression, serious depression, is common. Just try preventing such people from buying guns if they want to. The lawyers will love it....cases will drag on forever. And we'll never know which of those ill people pose a threat....until...
UAC, we are never going to come up with a solution that satisfies you and you are right. We can sit here and poke holes in any suggestion.

People are not perfect. They make mistakes. I can think of several reasons I would be extremely hesitant to carry a weapon at school.
1. I just might have to kill someone I taught in the past couple of years
2. I am not sure the students would feel the same about me after seeing me shoot someone.
3. I could accidentally wound or kill an innocent person
4. Liability - The police sometimes wind up in prison because their judgment is questioned. Most likely the 30 witnesses I would have are all going to be children or teenagers and will wind up with 30 different stories.

All that aside, I think we have to do something and try our best to work out the issues. I have to believe we can do better.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:17 PM
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Chris, please provide answer...

Originally Posted by zmz723 View Post
https://twitter.com/AP/status/966802599268798465

BREAKING: Sheriff: Deputy on duty at school where 17 were killed never went inside to engage shooter and has now resigned.

Dude probably knew a 9mm was no match for an AR-15.
Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Why is that ?.
I'll guess that zmz knows about as much as I do about guns. That being the (probable) case....I am requesting that you answer your own question.

The way the question appears to have been posed....sounds as if you feel that a trained guard with a 9mm is or should have been a match for the guy with an AR15. Yes? No? Elaborate, please. Thanks in advance.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cralford View Post
My guess is the deputy never knew what the weapon was. Unfortunately you never know how you are going to react in that situation until you are in that situation.

He would have the element of surprise on his side because he heard the shots firing plus you never know how the assailant is going to react when he is facing a live weapon.

It is a shame he did not try. He would have at the very least distracted him from his intended targets.
This

I was in charge of active shooter exercises at my last base & the reality is that a shooter will likely fold when confronted with deadly force.
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Old 02-23-2018, 02:05 AM
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I want to hear all these people against guns come up with a realistic plan to take, recover or whatever it takes to get the guns out of criminals hands. They don't buy guns at firearms stores. They buy from the black market. Underground purchases or taking what they want.

Educated people know that gun control only controls the sane and normal everyday law abiding citizens.

Criminals and emotional or mentally disturbed individuals don't care about the law.

In fact most criminals if asked would whole hartedly support gun control. It would make their life that much easier, gun control or laws in general don't affect them.

How much easier would it be for them to walk in any store house business knowing no one had guns except them.
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  #648  
Old 02-23-2018, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I want to hear all these people against guns come up with a realistic plan to take, recover or whatever it takes to get the guns out of criminals hands. They don't buy guns at firearms stores. They buy from the black market. Underground purchases or taking what they want.
They can't...that's why this argument goes on and on and on. No law will prevent this.

Last time I checked, heroin an fentanyl are illegal too...
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Random coments...no significance to order:

1. Just watched Fox....Mad River and Sidney featured re arming of teachers.
Sounds good....may deter...but if the practice becomes wide spread nationally how long do you think it will be before a teacher makes a mistake or misinterprets a situation...or encounters the real thing and panics...and winds up firing and killing one or more students or another teacher? How long?

I will take my chances and roll the dice. That is why training is important and continued training...there are plenty of people that are more than qualified in the schools to carry...contrary to popular belief the majority of your teachers are everyday republicans that like guns...not liberal pacifists...i know plenty of teachers with CCW's already and are avid hunters and sportsmen. There is no reason they can't shoot/qualify/train once a quarter...which is more than some of your police departments. Or simply pay off duty cops and retired cops an hourly wage to be there.

Or, contrary to that...how long before a situation arises in which it's clear that an armed teacher had the opportunity to save lives and did not act?

doesn't matter...they aren't legally required to jump into action and will be trained to act but with reservation in order to not escalate situations

2. Armed guards are better, right....they're trained. Well as details from Parkland come out it appears as if the "trained armed guard" acted so poorly that it cost him his job. That report may change as facts emerge...but that's the current story.

this was a cop who was a coward...there is a difference between police officers and armed guards. Top Flight security walking the halls of a HS are not a trained protectors...they are nothing more than a witness wearing polyester. Have cops in schools that aren't pussies and aren't there as security...not a instructor wearing a uniform teaching DARE, bullying classes, etc...they need to be able to react to threats. Buildings also need adequate physical security, surveillance, etc...

3. Just make sure people with mental illness can't get their hands on guns. Easy, right? Wrong! Exceptionally complicated. Millions of law biding citizens suffer from mental illness...depression, serious depression, is common. Just try preventing such people from buying guns if they want to. The lawyers will love it....cases will drag on forever. And we'll never know which of those ill people pose a threat....until...

thanks for proving that simple laws aren't the complete answer. So you are saying the pro gun crowd should scrap enhanced background checks?

4. So, what about the law abiding citizen with no prior involvement with the law...no prior evidence of any sort of mental illness....as upstanding a citizen as you'll ever find. But, he/she drinks...occasionally to excess...and no one even knows that, except, perhaps, close family members. We all know that highly intoxicated people often become "different people" when drunk....or, at a minimum their judgement is very poor and behavior is erratic. Armed while drunk they pose a serious risk. Just try and keep guns away from those people...people who occasionally drink to excess but are "law abiding citizens".

so you are saying that anyone who gets bagged up from time to time shouldn't have firearms in their home? So much for the constitution...and by the way...there are laws on the books that state I can't possess or operate a weapon while intoxicated. What about the guy ****ed off at the world and runs his F350 diesel pickup through the crowd at a parade? Chance of the drunk coming in to a bar a spraying patrons are about the same as someone committing mass murder with a vehicle. One more reason why the sober guy getting pizza at his local watering hole should be permitted to carry a firearm in that establishment

Yesterday in my town about one mile from house a guy was at a restaurant...a restaurant with a bar...typical situation. He had been there for some time and was clearly intoxicated and getting loud. When asked to leave he made the following comment: "I have an AR15 in the back of my truck and I'm gonna spray everyone". That comment was not ignored...the police were called. When they arrived just minutes later the guy was still there...sitting in his truck....there was no AR15 in the truck. The police administered a test to confirm that he was over the legal limit. That and his AR15 remark were sufficient to obtain a warrant to search the guy's home where, sure enough, they found a loaded AR15 and boxes of ammunition. I'll bet the number of similar situations occurring daily in a country the size of ours is countless.

The guy is free on bond and, with no record, even of drunk driving, I'm guessing he'll get a reprimand and probation of sort. Not even a DUI because he wasn't DUI, although he intended to.

How many thousands, tens of thousands (?) of guys who own AR15s, once in a while become intoxicated accompanied by a change in personality? Isn't that a great risk?

No it isn't a risk. No more a risk than the guy who owns a rifle and comes home to his wife knocking around with the neighbor and kills them. Once again...there are laws on the books and the guy can shoot them with his paw paw's shotgun just as easily as he can one of these new killer rifles. Second of all he did violate the law as it was either an OVI or physical control....further proving that all of these laws aren't preventing acts.
______

I'm a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences. With that in mind, I'd urge caution while implementing these reasonable-sounding ways to protect our soft targets from people with guns who shouldn't have them. ...or to rely on much stricter background checks. No doubt that sometimes,...hopefully most times....events will unfold as planned. But, for sure, not always. And there will be some unpleasant, unanticipated surprises.

So when people start coming up with reasonable solutions that are not the traditional "NRA response" or are solutions that are moving towards the middle ground you once again move the goalposts to further argue.
You response in this thread proves that you have absolutely no intention of moving towards any reasonable solution that attempts to appease both sides. There are unintended consequences of everything from 700hp cars to some people having access to a keyboard. Not to mention...thinking that a guy that gets drunk on the occasion shouldn't own firearms or rifles is laughable. What percentage of gun owners get drunk from time to time? 75% 80%. I've been drunk in my home and none of my guns miraculously wandered out of the safe or out of their hiding spots and randomly went off on unsuspecting house guests.
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  #650  
Old 02-23-2018, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
This is the crap that's going on....

https://www.local10.com/video/school...ium%3Dsharebar
Total BS:

CNN Communications
@CNNPR


There is absolutely no truth to this story -- and we can prove that. CNN did not provide or script questions for anyone in last night's town hall, nor have we ever. Those are the facts.
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Old 02-23-2018, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Total BS:

CNN Communications
@CNNPR


There is absolutely no truth to this story -- and we can prove that. CNN did not provide or script questions for anyone in last night's town hall, nor have we ever. Those are the facts.
Haha...so says CNN. Nice rebuttal.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I want to hear all these people against guns come up with a realistic plan to take, recover or whatever it takes to get the guns out of criminals hands. They don't buy guns at firearms stores. They buy from the black market. Underground purchases or taking what they want.

Educated people know that gun control only controls the sane and normal everyday law abiding citizens.

Criminals and emotional or mentally disturbed individuals don't care about the law.

In fact most criminals if asked would whole hartedly support gun control. It would make their life that much easier, gun control or laws in general don't affect them.

How much easier would it be for them to walk in any store house business knowing no one had guns except them.
What happens when 3-D printing advances to the point where a high quality firearm can be produced?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyf1IrHtcE
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:53 AM
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Think it through, Avid...

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I want to hear all these people against guns come up with a realistic plan to take, recover or whatever it takes to get the guns out of criminals hands. They don't buy guns at firearms stores. They buy from the black market. Underground purchases or taking what they want.

Educated people know that gun control only controls the sane and normal everyday law abiding citizens.

Criminals and emotional or mentally disturbed individuals don't care about the law.

In fact most criminals if asked would whole hartedly support gun control. It would make their life that much easier, gun control or laws in general don't affect them.

How much easier would it be for them to walk in any store house business knowing no one had guns except them.
Avid, the current uproar over guns is not driven by the role played by guns is criminal activity. Rather, it's due to the uniquely horrendous mass killings occurring in soft targets, e.g., schools, churches, similar venues.

The perpetrators of the recent horrific attacks were not "criminals" in the sense that bank robbers, drug dealers or gang members are criminals. In almost all such incidents in recent years the killers were either seriously mentally ill or terrorists. The school killings in Parkland, Sandy Hook and Va Tech illustrate what I mean.

If a really effective system of background checking was in place the seriously disturbed Parkland killer would not have been able to purchase the weapon he used. Sure, it's always possible that he "could" have somehow gotten his hands on an AR15. But it is a fact that the harder something is to do, the less of it you get...and vice versa.

"Gun control" doesn't just affect the sane and normal everyday law abiding citizens you describe. And, as you add, it probably won't affect criminals. But effective, sensible control ( background screening) almost certainly will go a long way toward keeping firearms out of the hands of non-criminal, but seriously disturbed people who
go on a killing rampage. Surely we can agree on that.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Random coments...no significance to order:

1. Just watched Fox....Mad River and Sidney featured re arming of teachers.
Sounds good....may deter...but if the practice becomes wide spread nationally how long do you think it will be before a teacher makes a mistake or misinterprets a situation...or encounters the real thing and panics...and winds up firing and killing one or more students or another teacher? How long?

The Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) program requires semi-annual training in a realistic setting ( I.e. sitting in the cockpit when someone tries to break in). This is just one layer of the increased security in aviation. We haven’t had a successful hijacking in the US since we hardened the high value aviation target.

Or, contrary to that...how long before a situation arises in which it's clear that an armed teacher had the opportunity to save lives and did not act?

[/B]If a potential shooter knows that there’s a high likelihood of dying before accomplishing their objective, maybe they never even try.[/B]

2. Armed guards are better, right....they're trained. Well as details from Parkland come out it appears as if the "trained armed guard" acted so poorly that it cost him his job. That report may change as facts emerge...but that's the current story.

Cherry pick all you want. Try this one:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/arli...ng-reports-say

Make the potential gunman take pause that he may not succeed and may die without achieving the headlines his worthless existence craves.


3. Just make sure people with mental illness can't get their hands on guns. Easy, right? Wrong! Exceptionally complicated. Millions of law biding citizens suffer from mental illness...depression, serious depression, is common. Just try preventing such people from buying guns if they want to. The lawyers will love it....cases will drag on forever. And we'll never know which of those ill people pose a threat....until...

4. So, what about the law abiding citizen with no prior involvement with the law...no prior evidence of any sort of mental illness....as upstanding a citizen as you'll ever find. But, he/she drinks...occasionally to excess...and no one even knows that, except, perhaps, close family members. We all know that highly intoxicated people often become "different people" when drunk....or, at a minimum their judgement is very poor and behavior is erratic. Armed while drunk they pose a serious risk. Just try and keep guns away from those people...people who occasionally drink to excess but are "law abiding citizens".

I’ll go ahead & address #3/4 together. Ever hear of a car? Drunk driving kills 28 people per day. How many family members know about a loved one abusing alcohol and getting behind the wheel? Simple, take away their car, right? How about banning their ability to buy alcohol? Neither is going to work, namely because the authorities don’t know until the driver is pulled over or worse, has an accident. Family members are a vital piece in defusing these potential situations

Yesterday in my town about one mile from house a guy was at a restaurant...a restaurant with a bar...typical situation. He had been there for some time and was clearly intoxicated and getting loud. When asked to leave he made the following comment: "I have an AR15 in the back of my truck and I'm gonna spray everyone". That comment was not ignored...the police were called. When they arrived just minutes later the guy was still there...sitting in his truck....there was no AR15 in the truck. The police administered a test to confirm that he was over the legal limit. That and his AR15 remark were sufficient to obtain a warrant to search the guy's home where, sure enough, they found a loaded AR15 and boxes of ammunition. I'll bet the number of similar situations occurring daily in a country the size of ours is countless.

The guy is free on bond and, with no record, even of drunk driving, I'm guessing he'll get a reprimand and probation of sort. Not even a DUI because he wasn't DUI, although he intended to.

How many thousands, tens of thousands (?) of guys who own AR15s, once in a while become intoxicated accompanied by a change in personality? Isn't that a great risk?

Not a lawyer, but communicating a deadly threat with the means to do so may provide justification for weapon seizure. At the very least the guy’s on law enforcement’s radar now.
______

I'm a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences. With that in mind, I'd urge caution while implementing these reasonable-sounding ways to protect our soft targets from people with guns who shouldn't have them. ...or to rely on much stricter background checks. No doubt that sometimes,...hopefully most times....events will unfold as planned. But, for sure, not always. And there will be some unpleasant, unanticipated surprises.

Make the potential targets harder. De-sensationalize shootings so potential shooters don’t see a pathway to infamy. Wage a media campaign targeting family members of troubled individuals to seek help in heading off a potential tragedy. Expand surveillance of social media to ID individuals who are showing signs of instability. Looking at the history of many shooters, there were warning signs there. We just have to be more diligent about finding these..
Filler.....
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  #655  
Old 02-23-2018, 10:22 AM
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The cover of hilarious NRA brochure "Freedom in Peril." When George Soros takes your guns away, you'll be defenseless against lobsters, hairy-legged women, and owls carrying dynamite!
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  #656  
Old 02-23-2018, 12:08 PM
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Florida Gov. Rick Scott says the state "will require all individuals purchasing firearms to be 21 or older."

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/967072165043453952
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Florida Gov. Rick Scott says the state "will require all individuals purchasing firearms to be 21 or older."

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/967072165043453952
While there are opinions one way or another...it amounts to nothing and is a throwaway item.
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:34 PM
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Does anyone really think an age limit on the purchase of guns will actually stop someone who is hell bent on shooting up a school, a church, a music venue or anyplace else? I mean it worked so well with stopping underage drinking or illegal drug use, didn't it? I'd rather have armed security guards at all these places or at least concealed carry permit holders and trained personnel to provide some protection and act as a deterrent to those sickos that want to wreak havoc and mayhem on innocents. You can never truly be safe in this life, but at least these measures would help to mitigate any issues that may arise in the future.
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:36 PM
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I have a friend who is a Cuban refugee. I know there are emotional, impassioned reasons to eliminate guns; please read an emotional, impassioned reason why we should not.

I own an AR-15...had it for years before it became a much maligned weapon due to the horrific actions of evil and mentally ill individuals. It looks wicked and poweful, but in reality, it shoots at the same rate as my old bolt action...one trigger squeeze, one round fired...I would never put a bump stock on it...they should be illegal to manufacture and own...I don't use it for hunting...I prefer my meat wrapped in cellophane or at a restaurant...saw and cleaned enough blood during my stint as an "ambulance driver". The gun has not seen the light of day very much...I have only taken it out twice...to zero it in and to shoot at cans...I will probably take it out again when my sons visit and we go shooting at cans again...I never want to take a life unless I'm forced to defend myself or my family. Now let me tell you a tale (true story) about why I bought an AR-15, besides the fact that I enjoyed target shooting when I was in Army ROTC...I was 6 years old in 1960, living in my birth country of Cuba. My grandfather had escaped to the United States in a homemade boat during the night, as he was going to be arrested for being an enemy of the revolution...my father told the "barbudos" or bearded ones where they could stick their revolution and refused to join the communist party at a mandatory community meeting, much to the chagrin of his 10 brothers and sisters, who then proclaimed that he, his wife, kids, and mother in law should be dragged down the street and given "paredon" ...taken before the firing squad. My father lost his job, my parents took me out of school when they took God out and put Marx, Lenin, Che, Fidel, and Raul in, and we were branded "gusanos", or worms, watched constantly by the "milicianos" and those that used to be friends and neighbors that drank the Kool-aid of socialism which led to communism. We were not allowed to leave our homes after dark, and there were armed soldiers in every block to make sure gusanos like us would not sneak out and make trouble for the revolution. I will never forget the night 4 armed milicianos came pounding on the door, shouting that they were going to drag us down to the wall and execute us. My dad grabbed a knife from the kitchen, had my mother, my grandmother, myself and my baby sister huddle in a corner. He told us that if they came in, they would probably kill us all, but that he at least would take one of them with us and positioned himself by the door. I remember my mother and grandmother hugging us and praying out loud, while my baby sister cried because she sensed something was wrong, and I cried in fear for my father. God must have heard their prayers, because after 10 terrifying minutes, they got tired and left. Sometimes, you can't forget things you wish you could...this is one of them, along with hundreds of others I witnessed in my 43 year career in EMS...so you pray. If that moment ever comes, and I pray it doesn't, where I have to protect my loved ones, wether from a rogue government or an armed crack head, I don't want the only option my father had...that's why I own an AR-15. I feel for the children and the families, the teachers, the first responders, the doctors and nurses that have to live with the nightmare for the rest of their lives, and the victims and their loved ones...I fear for my grandchildren that go to school everyday...we must come together as a nation and come up with a real solution instead of fighting each other...I never thought in my wildest dream that this could happen in America...but then, I never thought we would lose my birth country...wonder what would have happened if Native Americans had firepower equal to the Conquistadores instead of bows and arrows...
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:43 PM
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My rifle from now on identifies as a Nerf gun...if you don't agree...you're racist.
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  #661  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:43 PM
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So UACFlyer you are only concerned about mass shootings. There are thousands killed yearly that need to be considered too.

I mentioned emotional and mental along with criminal.

There no one solution, and as for uniform police we see how that played out in Florida shooting. Didn't even engage. Doubt he had military experience as any combat vet would have known how to engage the shooter, who in all likelihood would have froze at the sight of a gun. These shooters are cowards only attack the innocent and unarmed.
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Didn't even engage. Doubt he had military experience as any combat vet would have known how to engage the shooter, who in all likelihood would have froze at the sight of a gun. These shooters are cowards only attack the innocent and unarmed.
Only thing he was engaged in was his ability to live out retirement.

I heard that he did what he was supposed to do with the training from 15 years ago. I HIGHLY doubt that a SRO of the year and a current SRO is not up to speed on the latest ALICE training and trained on single unit active shooter response. We are ALL taught, alone or not, to advance to the threat and eliminate it...you don't wait for a second unit. Every single stat shows that active shooters stop killing innocents when bullets start flying from a good guy's gun.
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  #663  
Old 02-23-2018, 01:48 PM
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Hate to say it but again another agency our segment of that agency ignoring all the signs, much like 911 and others. Is this just bad analysis or by design.
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:43 PM
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C'mon Avid....

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
So UACFlyer you are only concerned about mass shootings. There are thousands killed yearly that need to be considered too.

I mentioned emotional and mental along with criminal.

There no one solution, and as for uniform police we see how that played out in Florida shooting. Didn't even engage. Doubt he had military experience as any combat vet would have known how to engage the shooter, who in all likelihood would have froze at the sight of a gun. These shooters are cowards only attack the innocent and unarmed.
I've said this before Avid. If only the number of dead mattered a person could say, "Gee,....30,000+ die is car crashes each year, 3000 died on 9/11.....why did everyone get excited by 9/11...it was only one tenth of car crash deaths? Or, why would anyone get excited when 20 first graders are murdered in their classrooms when thousands are killed each year in firearms incidents?".

That's pretty ridiculous thinking isn't Avid? Circumstances matter enormously...as you well know. All murders "need to be considered". But the circumstances of Vegas, Sandy Hook, Va Tech, Parkland and too many others were unique, and because of that are worthy of serious consideration that transcends other situations. The fact that situations of the type I've mentioned receive attention and extensive coverage all over the world shows they are not simply statistics. The context matters greatly. I know I do not have to tell you that...you are well aware of it.

You are certainly right...there is no one solution....and there is much disagreement re possible solutions. While some local communities embrace arming staff, the American Federation of Teachers representing tens of thousands of teachers has come out strongly against that approach. Perhaps the decision should be entirely local.

How can one oppose improved background checks? The Parkland kid never should have been able to legally obtain weapons. Can you disagree with that?
Greatly improved law enforcement procedures also will help. The FBI really blew it at Parkland.

And finally, when everything fails and an active mass shooting does occur the weapon(s) used does matter. When a 3000+fps round from a weapon originally designed for military use hits a person, bone/organs are turned to mush....unlike being wounded from rounds fired from guns designed for sport, hunting, personal self-protection. There are individual exceptions, I understand; but very few ordinary citizens have any reasonable need for a variant of a military design. You're a thoughtful person, Avid. I know that you know that as well.
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Old 02-23-2018, 03:45 PM
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Absolutely on bullets flying total game changer when you become the hunted.

Sat in a counseling session with some young men convicted and waiting to go to prison. The session was to learn why each of them carried guns committing their crimed.

A very young lad barely over 5 ft stated that the gun gave him respect where ever he goes. We then pointed out the obvious that he won't be taking hie respect with him to the big house. But don't worry Bubba will take care of you. Look on his face was priceless when realization sunk in.

Too bad he didn’t see the bigger picture. As Paul Harvey would saty, now he knows the rest of the story.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:56 PM
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I could probably put this link on a couple of different threads. It is the transcript of a phone call from an acquaintance of Nikolas Cruz to the FBI on January 5th of 2018 - just 6 weeks ago and before the most recent school shooting. The transcript is absolutely chilling. Many many specifics were provided. Even more chilling, the FBI never acted on this information. Good God Almighty can anybody in government do anything right. Warnings were ignored, policemen hid, it is just so sad. So many folks want to focus on more gun laws. How about focusing on the gross incompetence of those involved in enforcing the current laws.

Here are a couple of quotes from this transcript -

"I just know I have a clear conscience if he takes off, and just starts shooting places up"

"I just want to, you know, get it off my chest in case something does happen and I do believe something's going to happen, but........"

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...02-23-2018.pdf
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  #667  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:14 PM
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Went to Marshall's today with the wife before the game. Got out of the car and there was a 40 year old man (approximately) screaming at a grey haired lady in the driver seat of the car he was getting out of. This is the first time I have seen something like this in a parking lot. I watched for a few seconds and he went into the store. This episode has convinced me to start carrying my 9mm with me everywhere I am legally allowed to carry. My wife and I both thought this could have escalated into a much more serious incident. I did not see them leave the store.
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Old 02-24-2018, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Random coments...no significance to order:

1. Just watched Fox....Mad River and Sidney featured re arming of teachers. Sounds good....may deter...but if the practice becomes wide spread nationally how long do you think it will be before a teacher makes a mistake or misinterprets a situation...or encounters the real thing and panics...and winds up firing and killing one or more students or another teacher? How long?

Or, contrary to that...how long before a situation arises in which it's clear that an armed teacher had the opportunity to save lives and did not act?
Same criticism was leveled when we fortified cockpit doors and armed the airline pilots after 9/11 -- even after air marshals started flying. Been a non-issue ever since. No doubt if a rogue pilot wants to shoot passengers and his co-pilot -- nothing is really stopping him. But most people are good -- we must remember that. Most pilots are good, most teachers are good, most welders and electricians are good. We want the good apples out-arming the bad ones so its never a fair fight. I dont know of anybody who now feels less safe on airplanes because the pilot's are packin'. You might feel less safe from the dog and pony show TSA lines, celebrity no fly list, or cockroaches checking your bags into cargo, but thats a different ball of wax.

Getting 100M illegal guns out of the hands of criminals ain't happening any more than deporting 11-30M illegals is ever theoretically doable.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I'll guess that zmz knows about as much as I do about guns. That being the (probable) case....I am requesting that you answer your own question.

The way the question appears to have been posed....sounds as if you feel that a trained guard with a 9mm is or should have been a match for the guy with an AR15. Yes? No? Elaborate, please. Thanks in advance.
Making a claim that an AR15 is better than a 9mm is like making the claim that a Chevrolet Corvette is better than a Mazda Miata. In a vacuum by itself, it has no meaning. Context matters, location matters, the driver of the car matter, the course layout matters, the number of turns matters, the length of the straights matters, the tightness of the curves all matter. A Corvette may have 400 more horsepower than Miata, but if you are comparing the two vehicles on a timed auto-cross event in a parking lot where car clubs typically race for local trophies, the Miata is the better choice --- lighter, smaller, more easy to maneuver, will not spin tires and lose traction, carries momentum better, has quicker turn-in on tight technical corners. But if you are racing at Talledega, the Corvette is the better weapon. Few turns, mostly straights, high horsepower, high top-end speed, center-lock wheels for faster pit-stops, etc. And lets not forget the driver is still the most important factor in both cases.

Same with a 9mm or AR15. They are just tools in a toolbox. Each of them has inherent strengths and weaknesses. Neither is better or worse at killing. What ultimately decides most kill tallies in mass shootings is the willpower of the killer to keep shooting before either coming to his senses, killing themselves, or being shot and killed. The firearm itself has very little to do with it. You can fire a handgun as fast as you can fire an AR15 -- its entirely based on how fast your finger is in both cases. You can put 30rd magazines in an AR15 (which is normal capacity) and you can put 30rd magazines in a 9mm (which is high-capacity). Handguns are harder to wrestle away from murderers because they are small. Long guns are more easily dis-armed with brute force. Long guns are sometimes more accurate because of sight radius. But only if you use the sight radius -- in most shootings its not used -- its seat-of-the-pants shooting. You can reload handgun mags much faster than AR15 mags because a handgun does not weigh 7 lbs and require two hands to shoot it. AR15s can be cumbersome especially in tight places. But they can be great for long-range shooting (Las Vegas killer). Most firefights occur within 25ft (heck more like 10ft). Anything less than 50ft is prime handgun range. Handguns are small, compact, easy to deploy, the rounds are much lighter and easier to carry (and carry more of).

A tack hammer and a sledgehammer are two different kinds of hammers. One is huge, the other light and small. But using a sledgehammer to drive tacks is a terrible choice. And vice versa. All firearms have their moments. But like any good carpenter, you should never blame the hammer. And like most school shootings, the training and skill of the person either doing the murdering or exacting justice as a private citizen or cop is what's by far most important.

A 9mm round on target is 100% better than a .223 round from an AR15 off target. Putting rounds on target is 98% of firearms success or failure -- regardless of firearm type or caliber. So yes a 9mm can be as good or better when up against an AR15. It can also be worse if you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

You can win with either a Corvette or a Miata. Who is driving, where the match is, what the conditions are, etc dictate who has the tactical advantage. The car, like the gun, is not immune to the context surrounding it. You wont win on every course with the same car. But no one should expect that any more than someone should expect an AR15 to be the undisputed champion in every live-fire situation either.
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:53 AM
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Excellent short article citing one highly probable root cause of school shootings and crime. Our societal practice of raising children with no father figure is coming home to roost.

"Former U.S. Secretary of Education William J. Bennett points out in his book The Index of Leading Cultural Indicators that a survey of U.S. schoolteachers in 1940 revealed that the top problems in America’s public school system were talking out of turn, chewing bubble gum, running in the hallways, cutting in line, and littering. By 1990, the top problems included drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, suicide, rape, robbery and assault. These problems have only worsened during the 27 years since."

https://www.thetrumpet.com/16925-ano...therless-child
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Haha...so says CNN. Nice rebuttal.
What better rebuttal could there possibly be than CNN publishing their own emails to prove that this "scripted question" BS was just that--BS created by the kid's father:

Emails appear to show shooting survivor's father doctored emails to support claim CNN gave "scripted" question:

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/37...-hall-question
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:10 AM
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One other difference...

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
.......A 9mm round on target is 100% better than a .223 round from an AR15 off target. Putting rounds on target is 98% of firearms success or failure -- regardless of firearm type or caliber. So yes a 9mm can be as good or better when up against an AR15. It can also be worse if you can't hit the broad side of a barn.....
Not attempting to put words in your mouth...but from your examples and commentary it seems as if a 9 mm Glock would be more than adequate for a competent shooter whose interest was self or home protection. Is that not correct?

Yet other comments on this thread indicated that having an AR15 at home was just essential "to be safe", "to be sure", "to be comfortable"...it was "needed". ....a "must have". Seems more than just a little inconsistent.

Unfortunately, the fact is that the "preferred" weapon of mass shooters lately has been the AR15....rather than a 9 mm. And for the poor victims of these shootings, being struck by a round from an AR15 is not remotely comparable to that of a 9 mm round.

Read the descriptions of ER trauma surgeons. The AR15 and variants pose a unique danger in the hands of the wrong people. The AR15 is not "just another gun".
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:10 AM
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Better yet...get my hands on one of these with extended mags and I would be more deadly than anyone with a rifle at less than 50 feet.

https://fnamerica.com/products/pistols/fn-five-seven/

This is where the firearm schematics come in to play...yes...the AR15 is deadly....so is a 9mm G19....and yet...so is the FN Five Seven.

This handgun brings the same firepower as an AR...yet doesn't look scary.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:50 PM
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I love the five seven. Only thing holding me back is price for both the gun itself and the ammo.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:49 AM
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A radiologist's perspective re the AR15

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/

The article above published in The Atlantic on Feb 22 was written by a radiologist explaining what she saw when examining CT scan films of Parkland victims of an AR15 round....the radiologist has many years of experience and has examined the films of many thousands of gunshot wounds.

In the article she explains why AR15s wounds are unlike those from any other guns she has ever seen....are rarely survivable...and explains why AR15s "have no place in civilian society". She supports efforts focused on mental health and all other aspects of the problem....but describes those things as diversions and secondary to the "common denominator" of essentially all mass shootings, the AR15.

The article is technical...and a worthwhile read, in my opinion.
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Old 02-25-2018, 02:39 PM
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F = ma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

30-30 (hunting rifle): 2390-2615 joules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester)
.223 (AR-15): 1523-1800 joules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington)
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
The way the question appears to have been posed....sounds as if you feel that a trained guard with a 9mm is or should have been a match for the guy with an AR15. Yes? No? Elaborate, please. Thanks in advance.
An F-16 is no match for an F-22 in normal combat. That said, I've waxed a few F-22s in my time. How? Better training, the element of surprise, and the conditions of the fight.

An active shooter is usually an amateur and knows nothing other than how to pull the trigger against something a few feet away. A trained guard with a 9mm could easily take out one of these mobile fecal matter units due to better training, surprise, and maybe knowing the layout of the area better than the shooter.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:13 PM
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I agree

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
An F-16 is no match for an F-22 in normal combat. That said, I've waxed a few F-22s in my time. How? Better training, the element of surprise, and the conditions of the fight.

An active shooter is usually an amateur and knows nothing other than how to pull the trigger against something a few feet away. A trained guard with a 9mm could easily take out one of these mobile fecal matter units due to better training, surprise, and maybe knowing the layout of the area better than the shooter.
I agree completely...which is why I think the argument that anyone needs an AR15 in their home for security reasons/family protection is ridiculous. A 9mm would be more than adequate in trained hands 99.9999% of the time.

The percentage of the population that can make a legitimate case for "needing" an AR15 or variant thereof is very, very small.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I agree completely...which is why I think the argument that anyone needs an AR15 in their home for security reasons/family protection is ridiculous. A 9mm would be more than adequate in trained hands 99.9999% of the time.

The percentage of the population that can make a legitimate case for "needing" an AR15 or variant thereof is very, very small.
But home invasions oftentimes involve two or more criminals breaking into your home at the same time. One gun -- any gun -- is at a disadvantage against two people with two guns. So you'd want the most capable gun for the job to help even the odds as best you can. And since they are criminals, they might have two illegal AR15s. They might also have handguns as backups. You have no idea how much firepower they have - but you have to assume they have the kitchen sink. I dont find this a ridiculous argument at all. I find it quite sensible. If 4-5 people invade at the same time (this actually happens -- search YouTube), you want whatever tool you think you'll need to stay alive. As the left likes to say, "if it can save just one innocent life..."

Why do you need a security system on your home? Or a fire suppression system in your workplace? The chances you'll ever need it are infinitesimally small.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/

The article above published in The Atlantic on Feb 22 was written by a radiologist explaining what she saw when examining CT scan films of Parkland victims of an AR15 round....the radiologist has many years of experience and has examined the films of many thousands of gunshot wounds.

In the article she explains why AR15s wounds are unlike those from any other guns she has ever seen....are rarely survivable...and explains why AR15s "have no place in civilian society". She supports efforts focused on mental health and all other aspects of the problem....but describes those things as diversions and secondary to the "common denominator" of essentially all mass shootings, the AR15.

The article is technical...and a worthwhile read, in my opinion.
I read the article and quite frankly I dont understand what the author is trying to convey. Is the message that AR15 rounds are not very survivable? That's the entre point of any round from a firearm. That standard goes for a 9mm round, a 45ACP, or whatever. Has the radiologist ever seen someone's head blown off with a double-barreled "Joe Biden Special" shotgun? Those wounds would make an AR15 entry and exit wound look like a Fisher Price toy.

Who wants survivable rounds? If Im shooting at someone raping a family member or trying to murder someone (possibly me), the last thing I want is to fire my weapon with the intention of just wounding them enough to back off an reconsider, but never enough to kill them. Thats the entire point of using the firearm -- its the absolute last resort. If you just wanted to wound someone and persuade them to stop raping your daughter, you'd have tossed a baseball at them.

Rule #1 of drawing your weapon: you dont pull it out unless you're:
a) fully prepared to use it
b) fully prepared to kill someone -- not wound someone -- if and when you pull the trigger

Firearms are the absolute last resort to protect your life. They are serious business. You should be attempting to never have to use it. Dont walk down dark alleys alone. Flee disruptive events. Pick good friends. Be a peacemaker. But if all those things are off the table and you're cornered -- either in your home or car or on the sidewalk and there is no other option -- you better sure as he11 be shooting to kill. If the ER gets your violent criminal patient and he's still alive when he arrives, you messed up.

I dont really want the wives of America sitting at home alone with their two children at night having non-lethal rounds in their home defense weapon. As for the severity of the wounds -- not a concern for me. Dead is dead.

AR15 rounds do not cause any more or less body damage (non-survivable) than many other guns. I already mentioned shotguns. Watch someone get hit with a slug -- their body will basically explode. AR15 rounds are fast sharp pointy rounds with entry/exit wounds. They travel far too fast and do not tumble like much slower rounds and hollow point rounds that hit flesh, hit organs, and tumble inside your body and carve a massive hole in you with internal bleeding.

If you want survivable rounds, by a BB gun and hope for the best. The mother-daughter tandem confronted by a shotgun wielding lunatic in their quickie mart in Oklahoma were not shooting to wound. They wanted him dead on the first shot. He survived some of those hits and kept coming at them. The mother emptied her revolver and ran out of bullets. Revolvers typically hold 6 or 7 rounds. I bet she would have loved 17. In Oklahoma she probably could have. But I wont knock her choice. They both never hesitated to use what they had and thats 99% of the battle right there.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I agree completely...which is why I think the argument that anyone needs an AR15 in their home for security reasons/family protection is ridiculous. A 9mm would be more than adequate in trained hands 99.9999% of the time.

The percentage of the population that can make a legitimate case for "needing" an AR15 or variant thereof is very, very small.
Please refer me to the Bill of Needs of which you speak...
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:27 AM
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Bill of Needs

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Please refer me to the Bill of Needs of which you speak...
Of course, there is no "Bill of Needs"....my point is that there should be...as you no doubt have figured out. And its basis? Just compare annual gun deaths in the U.S. with other developed countries....and then rationally explain why our approach to the matter is justified....emphasizing the word "rationally".
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:42 AM
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Wouldn't an AR-15 be a poor choice for home defense due to the velocity of the rounds, and the possibility of accidentally shooting your child or spouse, because it shot through a couple walls? Give me a short barrel 12 gauge any day, and my Browning Hi-Power.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Of course, there is no "Bill of Needs"....my point is that there should be...as you no doubt have figured out. And its basis? Just compare annual gun deaths in the U.S. with other developed countries....and then rationally explain why our approach to the matter is justified....emphasizing the word "rationally".
What is it with your obsession of constantly comparing the US to other countries? The United States of America is one of a kind. We are unique. Comparing us to other countries is pointless. I certainly don't want to be like everywhere else where socialism is taking over and freedoms are being taken away just so they can feel all warm and fuzzy inside, which would be the only accomplishment of new gun laws and bans.

The day we start becoming like every other country will the be the end of us.
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  #683  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:58 AM
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JimBo, take a slow, deep breath...and think.

Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
What is it with your obsession of constantly comparing the US to other countries? The United States of America is one of a kind. We are unique. Comparing us to other countries is pointless. I certainly don't want to be like everywhere else where socialism is taking over and freedoms are being taken away just so they can feel all warm and fuzzy inside, which would be the only accomplishment of new gun laws and bans.

The day we start becoming like every other country will the be the end of us.
JimBo, it is not an obsession...rather a healthy degree of introspection....too lacking in America, in my opinion.

The U.S. is, indeed, unique,...one of a kind, as you correctly point out....a country that has been more successful, has achieved more and has contributed more to the rest of the world than any other. By far. No one is a more staunch defender or advocate of the United States of America than I am.

However, that does not mean we are "perfect", have nothing to learn from others, and can/should simply ignore the rest of the industrialized world. We have much to learn from others and if we ignore what others do and the way they do it...we do so at our peril.

I ask simply that you slow down...and give what I've said re comparisons a bit of serious consideration. No one is suggesting turning the U.S. into a socialized state, JimBo.

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Old 02-26-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Of course, there is no "Bill of Needs"....my point is that there should be...as you no doubt have figured out. And its basis? Just compare annual gun deaths in the U.S. with other developed countries....and then rationally explain why our approach to the matter is justified....emphasizing the word "rationally".
I no more have to "rationally" explain my right to bear arms than I have to "rationally" explain my right to disagree with you. I no more have to "rationally" explain my right to confront an accuser than I have to "rationally" explain my right to worship how I see fit.

Your arguments thus far have centered on disagreeing with the "need" someone has to own weapons, the purported fact that a particular class of weapon YOU find disagreeable is somehow more egregious than other classes, and a misguided attempt to link our nation with those "more enlightened" paradigms abroad.

Need is irrelevant as rights are codified in the Constitution. Your specious reasoning for opposing AR-15s as more terrible than a hunting rifle was then debunked by a simple analysis of physics. I've been to many of your ivory tower nations, and I've been to others where the government maintains exclusive control of the means of violence. I vastly prefer our system to theirs and believe our 242 year experiment validates that.

How 'bout we agree on this: mass shootings need to stop. Let's look at hardening ridiculously soft targets, addressing the holes in law enforcement's sharing of intelligence, and follow existing laws?
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:51 AM
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The Constitution

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
I no more have to "rationally" explain my right to bear arms than I have to "rationally" explain my right to disagree with you. I no more have to "rationally" explain my right to confront an accuser than I have to "rationally" explain my right to worship how I see fit.

Your arguments thus far have centered on disagreeing with the "need" someone has to own weapons, the purported fact that a particular class of weapon YOU find disagreeable is somehow more egregious than other classes, and a misguided attempt to link our nation with those "more enlightened" paradigms abroad.

Need is irrelevant as rights are codified in the Constitution. Your specious reasoning for opposing AR-15s as more terrible than a hunting rifle was then debunked by a simple analysis of physics. I've been to many of your ivory tower nations, and I've been to others where the government maintains exclusive control of the means of violence. I vastly prefer our system to theirs and believe our 242 year experiment validates that.

How 'bout we agree on this: mass shootings need to stop. Let's look at hardening ridiculously soft targets, addressing the holes in law enforcement's sharing of intelligence, and follow existing laws?
Re the last point, we certainly can agree on that.

Re selective worshipping of our Constitution is a bit of another thing. It's great and a model for others. But, it has been amended (changed) a large number of times. And interpretation of what the Constitution means and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century reasonable people can debate.

Recall that the Constitution and its wonderous words re mankind and human rights was written by men who owned slaves. And for a century after that slaves were owned....and for still another century after that the Nation was segregated. Not a record to be especially proud of considering the "words" used in the Constitution. Yet, Blacks have achieved more in the U.S. than in any other country of the world....to our credit.

The lesson? Our Democracy remains very much a work in progress. And interpretation of our wonderful Constitution continues to evolve (except, it appears, for interpretation by many of the 2nd Amendment.)
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by foolishpride View Post
Wouldn't an AR-15 be a poor choice for home defense due to the velocity of the rounds, and the possibility of accidentally shooting your child or spouse, because it shot through a couple walls? Give me a short barrel 12 gauge any day, and my Browning Hi-Power.
Not when you equip them with urban rounds...which is what most PD's do as well.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Re the last point, we certainly can agree on that.

Re selective worshipping of our Constitution is a bit of another thing. It's great and a model for others. But, it has been amended (changed) a large number of times. And interpretation of what the Constitution means and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century reasonable people can debate.

Recall that the Constitution and its wonderous words re mankind and human rights was written by men who owned slaves. And for a century after that slaves were owned....and for still another century after that the Nation was segregated. Not a record to be especially proud of considering the "words" used in the Constitution. Yet, Blacks have achieved more in the U.S. than in any other country of the world....to our credit.

The lesson? Our Democracy remains very much a work in progress. And interpretation of our wonderful Constitution continues to evolve (except, it appears, for interpretation by many of the 2nd Amendment.)
Allow me to posit some hypotheticals based on this comment:

1) A group of people propose a Constitutional amendment banning hate speech because they find Nazism morally outrageous. The amendment garners wide acceptance as the public is appalled by a rise in the admiration for Hitler and his teachings. The amendment passes easily the 2/3 & 3/4 hurdles it must to be ratified. In the years that follow, the new amendment has the desired effect of both quashing Nazi speech and eliminating underground Nazi organizations (both 1st amendment rights). However, progressive groups see this as an opportunity to criminalize differing views on everything from abortion to wealth redistribution and use the new amendment against such groups as Focus on the Family to the Heritage Foundation. Conservative groups are effectively criminalized.

2) Disgusted by the out of control gun violence in major American cities, a movement grows to confiscate guns. Unable to achieve a repeal of the 2nd amendment, a group of Constitutional lawyers proposes amending the 4th amendment providing broader search and seizure rights to the government when threats of imminent harm are suspected. The amendment barely reaches the threshold necessary for ratification, but eventually passes. Police, empowered by the loosening of search & seizure requirements, rout endemic crime in de facto war zones such as the south side of Chicago. Civil rights lawyers howl, but the public largely sees this as a positive. Several years later, after a severe economic downturn, a draconian government comes to power promising to restore economic & societal order. They use the amended Constitution to rapidly consolidate power by targeting political opponents as enemies of the state. America sinks towards totalitarianism.

Your statement suggests a future whereby the 2nd amendment is consigned to the dustbin of history, effectively equating the right to bear arms with slavery. That is your opinion and your right to have such. However, I would suggest caution due to the law of unintended consequences.
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  #688  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:15 AM
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https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2...acial-reasons/

This is really an eye-opener. The PROMISE program enacted during Obama's tenure. Any teachers out there have any experience with this?
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:40 AM
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Thoughtful hypotheticals...

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Allow me to posit some hypotheticals based on this comment:

1) A group of people propose a Constitutional amendment banning hate speech because they find Nazism morally outrageous. The amendment garners wide acceptance as the public is appalled by a rise in the admiration for Hitler and his teachings. The amendment passes easily the 2/3 & 3/4 hurdles it must to be ratified. In the years that follow, the new amendment has the desired effect of both quashing Nazi speech and eliminating underground Nazi organizations (both 1st amendment rights). However, progressive groups see this as an opportunity to criminalize differing views on everything from abortion to wealth redistribution and use the new amendment against such groups as Focus on the Family to the Heritage Foundation. Conservative groups are effectively criminalized.

2) Disgusted by the out of control gun violence in major American cities, a movement grows to confiscate guns. Unable to achieve a repeal of the 2nd amendment, a group of Constitutional lawyers proposes amending the 4th amendment providing broader search and seizure rights to the government when threats of imminent harm are suspected. The amendment barely reaches the threshold necessary for ratification, but eventually passes. Police, empowered by the loosening of search & seizure requirements, rout endemic crime in de facto war zones such as the south side of Chicago. Civil rights lawyers howl, but the public largely sees this as a positive. Several years later, after a severe economic downturn, a draconian government comes to power promising to restore economic & societal order. They use the amended Constitution to rapidly consolidate power by targeting political opponents as enemies of the state. America sinks towards totalitarianism.

Your statement suggests a future whereby the 2nd amendment is consigned to the dustbin of history, effectively equating the right to bear arms with slavery. That is your opinion and your right to have such. However, I would suggest caution due to the law of unintended consequences.
I won't comment directly on your hypotheticals,...except to observe that just a few days ago an organization that rates/ranks the condition or worldwide democracy pointed out that democracy is fading worldwide...even the U.S. rank had declined. Trends in countries like Poland and Turkey are particularly alarming.

Also, you may have read some very alarming op eds of the dangerous effect Trump's war on the media and government institutions is having. A free press is central to American democracy...and the President has been at war with the press from day 1. Don't immediately think "media bias". Everyone has biases....media right and media left are no exception. Every president in history has known that. But the current president is the only one who has repeated over and over that "the press is an enemy of the people"....and who has weakened confidence in our institutions by refusing to acknowledge the conclusions of every intelligence agency in our government.

Back to guns: Supreme Court rulings have upheld the 2nd amendment...but in no way interfere with the rights of States and localities to strictly regulate guns. About six states....one Ohio's neighbor, Indiana, and one my own state, CT have had laws for years permitting outright confiscation of all guns from a person determined to pose a risk to himself or others. A court order is required, of course. Surprising to me is that in CT such orders/confiscations are running at about 100 per year. Correcting for population difference, that would be about 300 a year in Ohio...roughly one a day. Had such a law been in force in FL there is little doubt that the killer would not have possessed the gun he used.

Of course, the NRA has vigorously opposed these laws...saying that confiscating guns from mentally disturbed people deprives them of their 2nd amendment rights. Hard to believe.

And, of course, much more could be done without running afoul of the SCOTUS' interpretation of the 2nd amendment...or even suggesting repeal.

Actually, the Parkland situation provides a good model for reform. No one argues that the killer should have been allowed to legally buy guns and/or possess them. The red flags were flying everywhere. Clearly there are some pretty gaping loopholes in our laws. So simply saying "enforce the laws on the books" is not enough. Parkland proved the "laws on the books" are not adequate. And even though CT is one of the states with tough laws, CT's laws did not prevent the Sandy Hook killer from having legal access to guns.

We all know it's not legal for a person to legally buy alcohol or cigarettes and then give them to a person who cannot buy them legally. Extending that to firearms, would it be such a stretch to make it clearly illegal for a legal buyer of guns to provide access to someone who could not buy them legally themselves? Quite possibly that would have prevented Sand Hook.

A person legally acquiring a firearm should have a legal obligation to secure the arms so that an illegal user does not have access. I'll bet shocka would agree with that. Yet so often accidents or worse occur when a person like a family member gets hold of a gun bought legally by someone else.

There is much sensible stuff we can do without trampling on anyone's rights.

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Old 02-27-2018, 11:52 AM
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:31 PM
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With all this talk of boycotting companies that support the NRA I have decided to do something about it.

I joined the NRA.

Cannot wait for my black duffel bag with bright yellow NRA letters to get here. I may use that to carry my umpire equipment.
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:42 PM
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Gun laws are not necessarily bad

I found an article on ranking states by firearm deaths. It included all deaths per 100k (including suicides) in the ranking. It also provided homicide deaths (10 states had no data available for homocides, which I found interesting). It also included that state's violent crime rate/100k.

I broke the data out and then cross-referenced the state against their ranking in gun law stringency (toughest(1) to least tough (50)).

Most gun deaths in the U.S. are via handgun. Here is what I found when I sorted the data:

Worst 10 states for violent crime ranking - Average gun law stringency of 36 - there was one state in the worst group that was in the top half (even top 10) of the stringency laws - the others were much more lax

Best 10 states for violent crime ranking - Average gun law stringency of 27 (5 were in top half and 5 were in bottom half)

Worst 10 states for homicides per 100,000 - average was 30 (2 were in top half)

2nd 10 states for homicides per 100,000 (because 10 states had no data available) - average was 12 (all 10 were in top half)
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
With all this talk of boycotting companies that support the NRA I have decided to do something about it.

I joined the NRA.

Cannot wait for my black duffel bag with bright yellow NRA letters to get here. I may use that to carry my umpire equipment.
I don't believe they are boycotting anybody. I believe they are removing discounts they used to provide for NRA members. Frankly, most of those discounts have little to no value.
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Old 02-28-2018, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Of course, the NRA has vigorously opposed these laws...saying that confiscating guns from mentally disturbed people deprives them of their 2nd amendment rights. Hard to believe.
I agree. Its hard to believe because its the very definition of fake news. 100% USDA Prime Cut.

The NRA supports every possible measure to restrict "mentally disturbed" people from accessing guns. Mentally disturbed would be those people that howl at the moon.

You are confusing the NRA's opposition to the denial of 4th amendment due process rights to individuals currently being categorized as "mentally disturbed" by the ridiculous over-reaching catch-all definition because they simply have someone else in their family handling their finances -- such as a family member care-taking finances for a senior. These are not people howling at the moon, violent, or make threats. They are people who simply need some assistance taking care of random personal responsibilities.

Its preposterous beyond the pale to be allowed to suspend someone's Constitutional rights pro-actively without due process, and then require that person to then petition the government to regain those rights that were erroneously or so broadly written that its a blatant miscarriage of justice.

And that's the problem with the legislation thats been repeatedly put forward -- its written far too broadly. If a legislator wants to write a Bill that says, "when someone says they are going to shoot a school up or is on high doses of medication to combat paranoid schizophrenia, we reserve the right to....." and the NRA will get behind it.

Imagine if we passed a Bill that pro-actively revoked your right to free speech because you said disparaging things about your neighbor or the President, and you had to go to the government and make a case for why you deserved your right to free speech back. Or perhaps what if the government sent you a letter in the mail saying your Miranda rights were now being taken away and if you want them back, come downtown and lobby as best you can.

There are plenty of people with mental difficulties in certain areas of their life that have absolutely zero bearing on their ability to defend themselves with a firearm, nevermind live peacefully. That we are actually attempting to treat all people with various mental challenges the same (from needed some help with finances to complete mental retardation) is a stance the NRA is never going to get behind for every good reason. Lets not demonize those with mental challenges. About 99.999% of them are completely non-violent, non-threatening, and fully capable of operating everything from firearms to can openers. Most have very very specific issues yet Congress doesn't want to be bothered with looking at cases on an individual basis.

If you want to take someone's 2nd amendment right away, the government should be compelled to make a specific case against a specific person, allow that person or guardian of that person to challenge that assertion, provide evidence counter to that assertion, be represented by council, and redress any further grievances at such accusations before such suspension of a Constitutional right is levied.

Round up every diabolical lunatic you can find, make that case, let them defend themselves, rule against them if the evidence is clear, and prohibit them from owning a firearm. And the NRA will support every instance. Playing John Wayne with the Bill of Rights however is DOA at the NRA's doorstep however.

I also dont buy the "historical context" argument some make about firearms. Statements like "well the Founding Fathers never knew about AR15s, it was all muskets and canonballs back then...they would have never predicted or allowed such things had they written the 2nd Amendment today."

Why is that argument never made for any other right in the Bill of Rights? They would have NEVER allowed Freedom of the Press (1st Amendment) had they known things like the Internet and social media were going to one day exist across 50 states where reporters could say and do anything they wanted in an instant under the banner of their news agency and byline without it first having to be approved by the publisher of the Town Crier who also owned the actual printing press those reporter's words were going to be spoken in. Its the Wild West now! What we have today doesnt resemble ANYTHING like what the press looked and acted like back in the late 18th century. These were noble men, educated men. They would have only protected freedom of the press if the words were actually published on a printing press, not Twitter. If its said on Twitter, the Founding Fathers would have never supported the reporter's right to protect his sources.
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Old 02-28-2018, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I won't comment directly on your hypotheticals,...except to observe that just a few days ago an organization that rates/ranks the condition or worldwide democracy pointed out that democracy is fading worldwide...even the U.S. rank had declined. Trends in countries like Poland and Turkey are particularly alarming.
Yes, I will agree, there is a global slide toward soft totalitarianism. Whether it be the Chinese model of trading economic nationalism for subjugation, the Russian model of KGB-lite, or the European model of the cradle-to-grave nanny state, individual rights such as those codified in our Constitution are under attack. As I'm sure you're aware, we are a Constitutional republic, not a democracy. I am very thankful for this fact.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Also, you may have read some very alarming op eds of the dangerous effect Trump's war on the media and government institutions is having. A free press is central to American democracy...and the President has been at war with the press from day 1. Don't immediately think "media bias". Everyone has biases....media right and media left are no exception. Every president in history has known that. But the current president is the only one who has repeated over and over that "the press is an enemy of the people"....and who has weakened confidence in our institutions by refusing to acknowledge the conclusions of every intelligence agency in our government.
I agree that a free press, divorced from political machinations, dedicated to shining a light on abuses regardless of the party, sex, color, or creed of the offender, is vital to a functioning democracy. Our media has serious flaws that call into question its objectivity. This isn't about Trump, this is about a free press being an active participant in shaping public opinion, in furthering its own agenda at the expense of it's credibility as an impartial observer. The love fest over Obama was nauseating to say the least, especially since there was a conscious effort to ignore obvious chicanery (Lois Lerner anyone?); the daily histrionics regarding Trump have had the unintended effect of cauterizing the wound opened after his election. The incessant din of collusion, mental deficiency, and impending nuclear war has simply become background noise that an increasing number of Americans are ignoring. You're worried about Trump casting aspersions on the fourth estate and Americans doubting these "watchdogs?" Worry more about them taking the bait and continuing with their daily televised pie eyed round table echo chambers.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Back to guns: Supreme Court rulings have upheld the 2nd amendment...but in no way interfere with the rights of States and localities to strictly regulate guns. About six states....one Ohio's neighbor, Indiana, and one my own state, CT have had laws for years permitting outright confiscation of all guns from a person determined to pose a risk to himself or others. A court order is required, of course. Surprising to me is that in CT such orders/confiscations are running at about 100 per year. Correcting for population difference, that would be about 300 a year in Ohio...roughly one a day. Had such a law been in force in FL there is little doubt that the killer would not have possessed the gun he used.
No, you cannot make that assumption. The Florida shooter, though clearly disturbed and having made numerous ideations about his desire to become a school shooter, had not been contacted nor the situation analyzed by police. You can't just take someone's Constitutional rights away without assessing the threat. That is a failure of law enforcement that should be addressed.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Of course, the NRA has vigorously opposed these laws...saying that confiscating guns from mentally disturbed people deprives them of their 2nd amendment rights. Hard to believe.
We have an entire justice system set up to protect the rights of the accused. You can't just brand someone a threat and suspend their rights without providing due process. Again, there were glaring problems with the flow of information between law enforcement agencies in not just the Florida, but also the Sandy Hook situation. Had the dots been connected earlier in both instances, perhaps the tragedies could have been averted.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
And, of course, much more could be done without running afoul of the SCOTUS' interpretation of the 2nd amendment...or even suggesting repeal.

Actually, the Parkland situation provides a good model for reform. No one argues that the killer should have been allowed to legally buy guns and/or possess them. The red flags were flying everywhere. Clearly there are some pretty gaping loopholes in our laws. So simply saying "enforce the laws on the books" is not enough. Parkland proved the "laws on the books" are not adequate. And even though CT is one of the states with tough laws, CT's laws did not prevent the Sandy Hook killer from having legal access to guns.
Is the Fourth Amendment now a loophole that must be closed? Re: Florida...had the numerous red flags been followed, perhaps police (maybe with a social worker) catch up to Cruz and assess the situation; maybe he's determined to be a threat and a 72 hour mental health detainer is requested. That could then provide the pretext for weapon confiscation. BUT, that only happens after the police do the heavy lifting required to satisfy a judge. Re: Sandy Hook...again, many red flags, but you have a family member (mom) who is providing cover. Did police ever engage the mom directly with the evidence they have and ask the hard questions about weapons in the home? The mom intimated that she feared her son; why didn't she get help? Likely she feared the stigma of a mental health diagnosis and the attendant committal it would have brought. What new law would have helped here?

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
We all know it's not legal for a person to legally buy alcohol or cigarettes and then give them to a person who cannot buy them legally. Extending that to firearms, would it be such a stretch to make it clearly illegal for a legal buyer of guns to provide access to someone who could not buy them legally themselves? Quite possibly that would have prevented Sand Hook.


Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
A person legally acquiring a firearm should have a legal obligation to secure the arms so that an illegal user does not have access. I'll bet shocka would agree with that. Yet so often accidents or worse occur when a person like a family member gets hold of a gun bought legally by someone else.
I agree. Had the Sandy Hook shooter's mom kept her firearms in a safe, the massacre may never have happened. However, she reportedly used the firearms as a sort of therapy for him and, regardless, he could have purchased firearms legally himself since he had no criminal record and no mental health diagnosis known to the state.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
There is much sensible stuff we can do without trampling on anyone's rights.
I was the Chief of Safety at one of my bases and I learned early on that every accident has a mishap chain of events. You break one link in that chain and you prevent that accident. The FL shooter...Sandy Hook shooter...the Congressional shooter...the list goes on...there is a chain of events in each case that came together leading to carnage. It's not an AR-15 problem, the NYC idiot in a Home Depot van proved that, it's a failure to put the puzzle together before they act.
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Old 02-28-2018, 05:50 AM
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The problem with giving up our Constitutional rights to the government is that inevitably, the government will abuse that power.

To see that, you have to look at both history and the long-view.

When you look just at what the deep state wants to do to the President, you can see just how corrupting a concentration of power can be.
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:18 AM
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Not in CT

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I agree. Its hard to believe because its the very definition of fake news. 100% USDA Prime Cut.

The NRA supports every possible measure to restrict "mentally disturbed" people from accessing guns. Mentally disturbed would be those people that howl at the moon.

You are confusing the NRA's opposition to the denial of 4th amendment due process rights to individuals currently being categorized as "mentally disturbed" by the ridiculous over-reaching catch-all definition because they simply have someone else in their family handling their finances -- such as a family member care-taking finances for a senior. These are not people howling at the moon, violent, or make threats. They are people who simply need some assistance taking care of random personal responsibilities.

Its preposterous beyond the pale to be allowed to suspend someone's Constitutional rights pro-actively without due process, and then require that person to then petition the government to regain those rights that were erroneously or so broadly written that its a blatant miscarriage of justice.

One final point, Chris. If you really believe that the NRA will be a willing, cooperative partner re identification and implementation of reasonable laws and/or procedures that are effective, I think you are sadly mistaken.

And that's the problem with the legislation thats been repeatedly put forward -- its written far too broadly. If a legislator wants to write a Bill that says, "when someone says they are going to shoot a school up or is on high doses of medication to combat paranoid schizophrenia, we reserve the right to....." and the NRA will get behind it.

Imagine if we passed a Bill that pro-actively revoked your right to free speech because you said disparaging things about your neighbor or the President, and you had to go to the government and make a case for why you deserved your right to free speech back. Or perhaps what if the government sent you a letter in the mail saying your Miranda rights were now being taken away and if you want them back, come downtown and lobby as best you can.

There are plenty of people with mental difficulties in certain areas of their life that have absolutely zero bearing on their ability to defend themselves with a firearm, nevermind live peacefully. That we are actually attempting to treat all people with various mental challenges the same (from needed some help with finances to complete mental retardation) is a stance the NRA is never going to get behind for every good reason. Lets not demonize those with mental challenges. About 99.999% of them are completely non-violent, non-threatening, and fully capable of operating everything from firearms to can openers. Most have very very specific issues yet Congress doesn't want to be bothered with looking at cases on an individual basis.

If you want to take someone's 2nd amendment right away, the government should be compelled to make a specific case against a specific person, allow that person or guardian of that person to challenge that assertion, provide evidence counter to that assertion, be represented by council, and redress any further grievances at such accusations before such suspension of a Constitutional right is levied.

Round up every diabolical lunatic you can find, make that case, let them defend themselves, rule against them if the evidence is clear, and prohibit them from owning a firearm. And the NRA will support every instance. Playing John Wayne with the Bill of Rights however is DOA at the NRA's doorstep however.

I also dont buy the "historical context" argument some make about firearms. Statements like "well the Founding Fathers never knew about AR15s, it was all muskets and canonballs back then...they would have never predicted or allowed such things had they written the 2nd Amendment today."

Why is that argument never made for any other right in the Bill of Rights? They would have NEVER allowed Freedom of the Press (1st Amendment) had they known things like the Internet and social media were going to one day exist across 50 states where reporters could say and do anything they wanted in an instant under the banner of their news agency and byline without it first having to be approved by the publisher of the Town Crier who also owned the actual printing press those reporter's words were going to be spoken in. Its the Wild West now! What we have today doesnt resemble ANYTHING like what the press looked and acted like back in the late 18th century. These were noble men, educated men. They would have only protected freedom of the press if the words were actually published on a printing press, not Twitter. If its said on Twitter, the Founding Fathers would have never supported the reporter's right to protect his sources.
The howling at the moon stuff is the "fake news". In CT law enforcement officials must obtain a court warrant and present to a judge evidence of recent threats of acts of violence that pose a risk to the person's self or others. Only then can guns be confiscated. This law has been on the books since 1999 and almost 800 cases have resulted in gun removal. The rate is increasing and currently is running at about 100 each year. Moreover, after just two weeks the person can petition the court to have his/her guns returned.

The CT law has been in force for nearly 30 years and I have never heard a single complaint....it's effectiveness has been praised. Other states are modeling laws after CT's. The objection (the NRAs) that the law will be used to remove guns from people with mild mental issues or cognitive impairment is pure NRA BS. The law has been used responsibly and is considered to have been very effective.

What the NRA does is "say" publically it supports this or that...and then goes to work behind the scenes using its money to make sure nothing happens. No new laws!
Chris, I'm surprised you fall for the superficial "support" the NRA claims for law restricting gun ownership. They might back "howling at the moon" cases...but nothing less than that.

Further, Chris, you are familiar with the background details of the Parkland shooter. If ever there was a case screaming out warnings over a long period, this was it. If FL had CT's law there is an excellent chance that the shooter's guns would have been confiscated...permanently. Yet there is no talk of enacting such a law in FL.

And since Parkland there have been a number of HS kids (copy cats) threatening out loud to do the same thing....one even brought an AR15 to school. To my knowledge there has never been a case like Parkland providing so many examples of how laws can be improved. Meanwhile, knowing legislation takes time and that the NRA will do everything in its power to defeat new laws,...any new laws... arming teachers as appropriate may provide the best near-term protection. Obviously some teachers already have training and others would be good, willing candidates. I suppose decisions should be made at the local school board level. That's the way it is in my state. A bit scary to think about.

Last edited by UACFlyer; 02-28-2018 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Chris, I'm surprised you fall for the superficial "support" the NRA claims for law restricting gun ownership. They might back "howling at the moon" cases...but nothing less than that.

Further, Chris, you are familiar with the background details of the Parkland shooter. If ever there was a case screaming out warnings over a long period, this was it. If FL had CT's law there is an excellent chance that the shooter's guns would have been confiscated...permanently. Yet there is no talk of enacting such a law in FL.
Yeah, the Parkland tragedy was from a lack of laws on the books. Perhaps the most obscene, apathetic, incompetent, bungled, ignored, derelict, cowardly Keystone Cops miscarriage of deterrence, detective work, and on-the-scene systematic response in the history of the state of Florida, and we're now arguing about why the laws failed Parkland.

Attorneys and politicians and judges didn't fail Parkland. Those who swore to uphold the existing laws, enforce those laws, properly process smoking-gun tips (i.e. tips like "I think he's going to shoot up a school", and "this is the 29th time cops have interacted with this individual", and "he put a gun to his mother's head") and counteract that intelligence both before and after is the sole reason why this event occurred.

If you could not see this disgusting, disturbed piece of vomit coming from 100 miles away and do something about it, you can't see anything from any distance and no additional paperwork sitting in the state capitol building is going so solve your inability to adequately perform your job at even the most anemically acceptable performance level. If these Keystone Cops couldn't read the tea leaves of protecting and serving with 500 pieces of legislation on the books, 501 wasn't going to remove their fog of incompetence.

17 are dead because people hired to prevent a very preventable situation were over their pay grade. The cast of Police Academy makes these buffoons look like J Edgar Hoovers.
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:15 PM
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I bet many people dont also realize that the Supreme Court has ruled that if a weapon has no military purpose, you cannot own it. It **must** have a military purpose for you to own it.

The reason sawed-off shotguns and ballistic knives and are illegal is because the military deems them not useful.
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
I bet many people dont also realize that the Supreme Court has ruled that if a weapon has no military purpose, you cannot own it. It **must** have a military purpose for you to own it.

The reason sawed-off shotguns and ballistic knives and are illegal is because the military deems them not useful.
What about RPGs?
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