NBE expansion talk. - Page 2

OSU Flyer · #**101** 03-22-2019, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chris R

But Dayton is not Villanova and never has been. What Nova does does not translate to what Dayton does. They are selling a completely different product, from a different vantagepoint, with a different conference, and different tradition and history. Other than being private and catholic, the two schools have nothing in common basketball-wise. The Wildcats have three title banners hanging from the rafters and those arent NIT titles.

Xavier is probably a better candidate for the emulation theory. But when you get down to it, the only real difference is recruiting. Xavier consistently got better players than Dayton did. We would get Binnie, they would get Doellman. We would get Warren, they would get Holloway. We would get Waleskowski, they would get West. We would get Mikesell, they would get Macura. We would get Stafford, they would get Thornton. We would get Lowery, they would get Crawford. We would get Gaydosh, they would get Grant. We would get Fabrizius, they would get Redford.

Gillen, Prosser, Matta, and Mack were not Beethovens. But they recruited at an extremely high level -- guys that would play in the NBA. Guys that could single-handedly take over games and win when Xs and Os broke down. The last 30 years of XU basketball is littered with Tu Holloways and Jordan Crawfords and Jamie Gladdens and Trevon Blueitts and Semaj Christons and Romain Satos. There is no equivalency on Dayton's side.

In most seasons Xavier brings in at least three Top-100 recruits and usually two are in the Top-65 range. They recruit at an extraordinarily high level. They win with talent. Better players make coaches better coaches.

Grant is taking a somewhat different approach and going the transfer route. Its worked wonders for Musselman at Nevada. It could be our golden road too. But to get to that next level, we need better players and better players in the 6-10 rotation. Depth counts in March. Verdict is still out on whether Grant can make it happen, but thats why the next two seasons should prove interesting to see if whats on paper translates to the court.

Not true about Xavier bringing in that volume of top 100 guys

I broke that down in this thread

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread...churchill+odia

SeasonTicketFan · #**102** 03-22-2019, 03:09 PM

Whether they were top 100 or not, X consistently recruited better talent across the board than UD. Watching many X games vs. UD, that was very obvious.

Many coaches don’t put much value into the external recruiting ratings. They rely on their own systems of evaluating players. It is very, very easy to rate the top 10-20 players in the country. Zion Williamson is a no brained. After that, it takes a lot more in depth analysis.

shocka43 · #**103** 03-23-2019, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan

Whether they were top 100 or not, X consistently recruited better talent across the board than UD. Watching many X games vs. UD, that was very obvious.

Many coaches don’t put much value into the external recruiting ratings. They rely on their own systems of evaluating players. It is very, very easy to rate the top 10-20 players in the country. Zion Williamson is a no brained. After that, it takes a lot more in depth analysis.

This is important. People put some big value number on the rating systems. I don't buy them. Hate them. They are dependent on what AAU circuit you are on, where you have been invited, who you have played in front of, who your team is sponsored by, and where you have traveled to.

Coaches and staff that have an eye for the talent will beat ratings every day of the week.

Chris R · #**104** 03-23-2019, 02:40 AM

Christon was Top-40 by several scouting services. BJ Raymond was rated as high or higher than Brian Roberts. Josh Duncan was Top-100. Trevon Blueitt was Top-50. Scruggs was Top-40. Marshall was Top-60. Sato was Mr Basketball in Ohio.

XU has four guys committed in the Top-150 for next season. Without looking Im betting in the last 15 seasons, XU has signed more Top-75 and Top-150 prospects by a 4:1 margin. We're including everybody, even the transfers. I can think of one guy -- Jordan Sibert -- we've signed in the Top-50 in the last 20 years. Xavier has more than that just in the last 2-3 years. Even Chris Wright was not Top-50. Before Sibert, we probably have to go all the way back to Tony Stanley.

Now I think Grant is changing the game a bit with his transfers. He's going a different route than the prep ranks and taking the Musselman approach. I think he can narrow the gap.

T-Bone 84 · #**105** 03-23-2019, 10:49 AM

Yeah, Chris, the Musselman route may be our best bet at this point. Find highly rated players who went somewhere else, got dissatisfied with their situation, and decided that a fresh start would be to their advantage. If we think they’ll be a good fit here, then recruit them. The approach worked great for Archie with Sanford and Sibert, and Cooke was a good addition too (though there were “chemistry” issues in the 2 years he played).

Those who said Donoher was hamstrung by his recruiting budget were spot-on. In the ‘70s and ‘80s, we had this great Arena but some of our talent was 1 step above Oberlin. It’s like the people who buy $600,000 houses but then can’t afford the furniture to fill them. Then we had the disastrous tenure of JOB, and we’ve been paddling upstream ever since. We seem to be leveling the playing field slightly with our latest recruits, but for years we were behind our neighbors to the south in this regard. They had Brian Grant with Pete Gillen as his coach? We had Chip Hare with JOB as his coach. They had James Posey? We had Maurice Beyina. They had David West? We had Sean Finn. They had Josh Duncan? We had Norman Plummer. Our players were good? Their players were great. And while I’m sensing an evening-out of that talent gap (how many XU players have made a mark in the NBA since 2010, as compared to the triumvirate of David West, James Posey, and Brian Grant?), we’re not there yet.

I’m hoping and praying that this is the beginning of an era where we have the upper hand on our neighbors to the south again, for the first time in 3+ decades. And I’ll continue to support our program in its efforts to make that happen.
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ud2 · #**106** 03-23-2019, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

Yeah, Chris, the Musselman route may be our best bet at this point. Find highly rated players who went somewhere else, got dissatisfied with their situation, and decided that a fresh start would be to their advantage. If we think they’ll be a good fit here, then recruit them. The approach worked great for Archie with Sanford and Sibert, and Cooke was a good addition too (though there were “chemistry” issues in the 2 years he played).

Those who said Donoher was hamstrung by his recruiting budget were spot-on. In the ‘70s and ‘80s, we had this great Arena but some of our talent was 1 step above Oberlin. It’s like the people who buy $600,000 houses but then can’t afford the furniture to fill them. Then we had the disastrous tenure of JOB, and we’ve been paddling upstream ever since. We seem to be leveling the playing field slightly with our latest recruits, but for years we were behind our neighbors to the south in this regard. They had Brian Grant with Pete Gillen as his coach? We had Chip Hare with JOB as his coach. They had James Posey? We had Maurice Beyina. They had David West? We had Sean Finn. They had Josh Duncan? We had Norman Plummer. Our players were good? Their players were great. And while I’m sensing an evening-out of that talent gap (how many XU players have made a mark in the NBA since 2010, as compared to the triumvirate of David West, James Posey, and Brian Grant?), we’re not there yet.

I’m hoping and praying that this is the beginning of an era where we have the upper hand on our neighbors to the south again, for the first time in 3+ decades. And I’ll continue to support our program in its efforts to make that happen.
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At least from a recruiting standpoint, that is highly doubtful, I do not follow recruiting much, but I have been hearing buzz from friends about Xavier's incoming recruiting class, and I am guessing that this is their highest rated class ever. They have 4 players coming in that are 4 stars.

I highly doubt that they have ever had a class with that many 4 star players.

Even if Steele sucks, which I do not think is the case, those type of highly rated players will at least prevent much decline.

For whatever reason, probably because he is a rookie hc, Steele got off to a rougher start. They finished strong, winning 6 out of 7 to close out the regular season.

Who knows? Steele may be worse than their previous coaches, it is too soon to tell with a rookie hc, and maybe Grant gets UD rolling, and maybe we can gain the upper hand, but it will be tough just because, again, their recruiting is getting better, not worse.

http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/xavier

T-Bone 84 · #**107** 03-23-2019, 02:09 PM

We’ll see if all of their 4-Stars are truly 4-Star recruits. Case in point: Cohill was a 4-Star for us this year, but played more like a 3-Star. Don’t get me wrong: I like Dwayne, and I’m glad he’s a Flyer. Just saying: not all Stars are equal.
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OSU Flyer · #**108** 03-23-2019, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Chris R

Christon was Top-40 by several scouting services. BJ Raymond was rated as high or higher than Brian Roberts. Josh Duncan was Top-100. Trevon Blueitt was Top-50. Scruggs was Top-40. Marshall was Top-60. Sato was Mr Basketball in Ohio.

XU has four guys committed in the Top-150 for next season. Without looking Im betting in the last 15 seasons, XU has signed more Top-75 and Top-150 prospects by a 4:1 margin. We're including everybody, even the transfers. I can think of one guy -- Jordan Sibert -- we've signed in the Top-50 in the last 20 years. Xavier has more than that just in the last 2-3 years. Even Chris Wright was not Top-50. Before Sibert, we probably have to go all the way back to Tony Stanley.

Now I think Grant is changing the game a bit with his transfers. He's going a different route than the prep ranks and taking the Musselman approach. I think he can narrow the gap.

There's no doubt their recruiting picked up in the Big East, I was talking about their A10 days. The vast majority of their high school guys weren't top 100 on the RSCI (composite of all the services at the time). Keith Jackson and Churchill Odia who were some of the highest rated guys they got in the early 2000s were busts

They did well recruiting ranking wise in the A10 but transfers and non qualifiers like Lionel Chalmers were more a back bone for them than the few top 100 guys they got

For as long as I've followed basketball, they've out recruited UD there's no doubt about that

OSU Flyer · #**109** 03-23-2019, 03:26 PM

If anyone is interested you can track recruiting rankings all the way back to 1998

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home

MNFats · #**110** 03-23-2019, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

So you are saying if we are profitable and finish under .500 each year we get an invite into a conference like the BE?

It has nothing to do with how much money we make for ourselves. It has to do with how much money we can make for the conference. If we are under .500, but the extra eyes allows the conference to get more $$$ on the next TV contract, then yes - they will be happy to have us.

T-Bone 84 · #**111** 03-23-2019, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer

If anyone is interested you can track recruiting rankings all the way back to 1998

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home

Some interesting stuff there, but two things it proves IMHO are (a) recruiting is still a bit of a crapshoot and (b) it still takes good coaching to get the most out of the players you do get.

Case in point: I searched the site for the word “Xavier”, and found that they had an Honorable Mention recruiting class in 2017, but among the teams that were ranked ahead of them, in the Top 10, were Alabama, UCLA, and Missouri. None of those 3 programs has lit the world on fire in the past 2 years, and their HCs have either felt tremendous heat or been let go.

I guess what I’m saying is it takes a good coach, who can get good players, who are well-suited to play in that coach’s system, and then they need to pull it all together. Without all 4, you have a program that cannot reach the peak of its potential.
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OSU Flyer · #**112** 03-23-2019, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

Some interesting stuff there, but two things it proves IMHO are (a) recruiting is still a bit of a crapshoot and (b) it still takes good coaching to get the most out of the players you do get.

Case in point: I searched the site for the word “Xavier”, and found that they had an Honorable Mention recruiting class in 2017, but among the teams that were ranked ahead of them, in the Top 10, were Alabama, UCLA, and Missouri. None of those 3 programs has lit the world on fire in the past 2 years, and their HCs have either felt tremendous heat or been let go.

I guess what I’m saying is it takes a good coach, who can get good players, who are well-suited to play in that coach’s system, and then they need to pull it all together. Without all 4, you have a program that cannot reach the peak of its potential.
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If you looked at recruiting rankings this century than N.C. State would be a far more successful program than Gonzaga

T-Bone 84 · #**113** 03-24-2019, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer

If you looked at recruiting rankings this century than N.C. State would be a far more successful program than Gonzaga

And that’s why Gonzaga is near the peak of its potential, while N.C. State struggles by comparison.
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