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11-16-2017, 09:36 PM
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Holy officiating!
Very suspicious.
We obviously have a ways to go to improve.
But wow, never seen a game called like that.
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11-16-2017, 09:40 PM
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For some reason the same incompetent a$$holes keep getting hired year after year as refs.
Guess nobody ever does an evaluation on these guys.
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11-16-2017, 09:52 PM
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Teddy Valentine... I can't believe he still works games. Cunningham got two garbage calls in a row in the 2nd half and had four fouls which was a killer. Dayton did foul some but Hofstra's last FG came at 6:13 of the game and they weren't getting intentionally fouled once. Free throws the rest of the way. Really proud of the comeback, but a tough way to lose. Hopefully the Flyers can play a full 40 minutes tomorrow because a little rough start proved too much to come back. Hofstra having a second game before this could have been the difference.
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11-16-2017, 10:02 PM
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My brother is at the game and texted me a couple times saying the refs (Valentine in particular) sucked...:angry fire:
I reffed tonite and only saw the last 10 minutes...being fair, as I always am, I didn't see any bad call. The charge on Cunningham was an obvious charge, so if you're complaining about that one, you don't have a clue.
Not sure about the first 30 minutes but would love to hear more from those who know what they're talking about. Which means this will be a short thread.
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11-16-2017, 10:14 PM
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Cunningham was fouled by the other player on the arm about half a second before the legit charge. Ref (think Teddy TV) was focused on the block/charge and totally missed the foul slashing the arm ...
20 fouls on Dayton and 13 on Hofstra. Part bad officiating and part bad plays by Dayton. Should NEVER be that close versus Hofstra that officials matter.
AG lost the game, not the officials. But they were not good either.
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11-16-2017, 10:45 PM
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When I saw Valentine and Stuart come out onto the floor I knew we were in trouble.
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11-16-2017, 11:51 PM
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One or two bad calls going both ways. We run at three point shooters and any contact gets a foul called. Refs did not cost us the game.
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11-17-2017, 12:11 AM
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I really didn't find it to be that poorly officiated. Our fans at the game were losing their mind, but without good cause. There were a couple of calls here and there, but the ones that cost us the most were fouling on the three point attempts, which I thought were correct.
It seemed like every time Hofstra did a shot fake, the crowd wanted traveling which just wasn't legit.
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11-17-2017, 01:22 AM
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There was a string of ticky tack fouls against us in the 2nd half and we weren't getting the calls the other way.
Some of them were frustrating to watch, but I have a list of reasons we lost and the refs aren't on it.
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11-17-2017, 05:01 AM
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They did miss a couple obvious travels. When the announcers count 3 steps before a foul on Sovboda, you know it is bad. But again, not one of the 10 reasons Dayton lost.
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11-17-2017, 05:46 AM
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Multiple fouled 3 point shooters killed us...low percentage contested shots and we give them freebies...
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11-17-2017, 06:14 AM
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The fact that we literally lost the game on a bogus attempted rebound foul is tough. I understand there are many reasons we lost and I’m not necessarily blaming poor officiating. However, if you would’ve told me that Tim Donaghy was one of the refs, I would believe it. There’s nothing worse than a person who thinks it’s impossible for a referee to hold biases or favor certain teams, players, or coaches. Refs are not ethically superior than the average guy that works any other job. There’s incompetent, immoral pieces of S like there are in every profession.
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11-17-2017, 06:19 AM
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This team lost that game on much more than the last call.
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11-17-2017, 08:47 AM
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Count me in the camp that thinks the officiating wasn't the greatest, but that it didn't cost us the ballgame. Crutcher & Williams had legitimate, obvious charging fouls at points in the 2nd half when a basket was sorely needed. And we fouled 3-point shooters more than in any game I can remember. Finally, I can't count how many times one of our guys launched a shot, and there was no effort to crash the glass - 1 red jersey and 4 white jerseys within @ 10 feet of the hoop.
There were some horrible foul calls against us, too (the one where Williams had inside position on an offensive board and they called the foul on him comes to mind), but much of that didn't lead directly to points for Hofstra. We got spoiled over these past few years having teams with loads of experience at the D-I level, and this year we're down to 3-1/2 players with such experience (I count Crosby as the 1/2, for what little he played behind Scoochie). As long as guys learn and progress, we'll be fine down the road. But right now (to use terms from my job), this team is barely past the Design phase, and just starting the R&D. It may be the end of January before they're "in production".
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11-17-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kiefaber455
For some reason the same incompetent a$$holes keep getting hired year after year as refs.
Guess nobody ever does an evaluation on these guys.
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11-17-2017, 09:48 AM
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What bothered me the most was the non calls when we were taking inside shots. We'd get hammered trying to take a contested inside shot with no call time and again, I could hear the slap on skin on the TV. Then the ball would go to the other end and we'd get called for any body contact.
More than anything the poor perimeter defense is what lost us the game.
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11-17-2017, 10:56 AM
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I was behind the basket (Hofstra end for the second half). One of the refs came up to us after a play and said "one more time please!" in a threatening way as if he was going to call a foul on us or throw us out.
I went up to him during a timeout and asked what we did wrong. He refused to answer me and just said "I would just be quiet from here on out." It was an odd experience and I still don't know what we did wrong. I'm just lumping that in to the rest of the horrible officiating, which isn't why we lost but it certainly didn't help!
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11-17-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
I was behind the basket (Hofstra end for the second half). One of the refs came up to us after a play and said "one more time please!" in a threatening way as if he was going to call a foul on us or throw us out.
I went up to him during a timeout and asked what we did wrong. He refused to answer me and just said "I would just be quiet from here on out." It was an odd experience and I still don't know what we did wrong. I'm just lumping that in to the rest of the horrible officiating, which isn't why we lost but it certainly didn't help!
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Ted Valentine - one of last night's refs - has done just that.
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11-17-2017, 11:34 AM
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As a high school official I've seen poorly called games in my life, matter of fact been involved in a few myself!! We see games from the perspective of a fan, which is all part of the fan experience. I seldom notice any really bad officiating if I'm just watching a random game, but tend to see a lot of awful calls when rooting for my Flyers. It's all just part of the game. The officiating in this game had much less impact than did a number of our poor decisions. None more than our attempt to try to block three point shots. Just my two cents.
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11-17-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer
As a high school official I've seen poorly called games in my life, matter of fact been involved in a few myself!! We see games from the perspective of a fan, which is all part of the fan experience. I seldom notice any really bad officiating if I'm just watching a random game, but tend to see a lot of awful calls when rooting for my Flyers. It's all just part of the game. The officiating in this game had much less impact than did a number of our poor decisions. None more than our attempt to try to block three point shots. Just my two cents.
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Most poorly reffed games are poorly played, which makes good officiating impossible.
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11-17-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84;520379
There were some horrible foul calls against us, too (the one where Williams had inside position on an offensive board and they called the foul on him comes to mind), but much of that didn't lead directly to points for Hofstra.
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If that's the call towards the end of the game, then I disagree. They didn't show a replay so when I got home I watched it over & over. I didn't see how Williams fouled that guy. They take the lead on that FT and we don't get it back. Given how the end of the game went, I'd have rather take our chances with them having a possession than FTs.
Not that we "deserved" to win, but I thought that was an important (& bad) call.
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11-17-2017, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
I was behind the basket (Hofstra end for the second half). One of the refs came up to us after a play and said "one more time please!" in a threatening way as if he was going to call a foul on us or throw us out.
I went up to him during a timeout and asked what we did wrong. He refused to answer me and just said "I would just be quiet from here on out." It was an odd experience and I still don't know what we did wrong. I'm just lumping that in to the rest of the horrible officiating, which isn't why we lost but it certainly didn't help!
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Sounds like a ref with an ego problem that thinks he's the most important part of the game. Seriously, unless fans are throwing stuff or using profanities(which should be handled by the staff not the refs) I just don't agree with Refs having that kind of power over fans who pay for their tickets and are emotional by nature. Those two things are what pays his salary.
Refs need to check their ego at the door. Right Rollo? Oh, never mind.
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11-17-2017, 02:13 PM
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Refs are human too. They are not automatic robots. Remember Donaghy's betting system (which was the most accurate in history) was based upon attitudes by referees. He documented how they treated Kobe favorably after the Lakers complained and how they punished Iverson. And so on...
The referees always have a closer view, so sometimes I am not sure that I saw the play better. Having said that I think UD benefitted form a couple of calls too. Twice Hofstra players were knocked to floor with no calls. One looked like a possible act from the player, but the other look like defensive contact that impacted the shot.
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11-17-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill202
If that's the call towards the end of the game, then I disagree. They didn't show a replay so when I got home I watched it over & over. I didn't see how Williams fouled that guy. They take the lead on that FT and we don't get it back. Given how the end of the game went, I'd have rather take our chances with them having a possession than FTs.
Not that we "deserved" to win, but I thought that was an important (& bad) call.
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Bill202, if you're talking about the call on the offensive boards late in the 2nd half (in front of the Flyers' bench), I'm agreeing with you and saying it was one of the (fewer) calls that DID result in Hofstra points. I was just, simply, trying to say we weren't clearly the better team last night.
Oh, what a difference 24 hours makes!
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11-17-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69
Ted Valentine - one of last night's refs - has done just that.
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Shouldn't his purview begin and end with the players and coaches? Not justifying the fan's words or actions. Just trying to define the scope of the officials' authority (since I play in the Alumni Band, and tend to get LOWD).
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11-17-2017, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84
Shouldn't his purview begin and end with the players and coaches? Not justifying the fan's words or actions. Just trying to define the scope of the officials' authority (since I play in the Alumni Band, and tend to get LOWD).
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No. The ref has the authority to kick someone out. I've seen it happen in person at MS, HS, and College games. And in most cases the people deserved it.
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11-17-2017, 10:21 PM
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General of the Air Force
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Originally Posted by C-time
No. The ref has the authority to kick someone out. I've seen it happen in perseon at MS, HS, and College games. And in most cases the people deserved it.
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Yeah, I can see that some fans deserve it. But still, with great power comes...
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11-17-2017, 11:29 PM
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Refs tonight were way worse. Lots of bad and missed calls on both teams.
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11-18-2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75
I really didn't find it to be that poorly officiated. Our fans at the game were losing their mind, but without good cause. There were a couple of calls here and there, but the ones that cost us the most were fouling on the three point attempts, which I thought were correct.
It seemed like every time Hofstra did a shot fake, the crowd wanted traveling which just wasn't legit.
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priceg75, not sure if you were watching on TV or at the game, but I was watching on DVR. There were 3 BLATANT travels that were not called, all within a 3 minute span. I'm pretty lenient on the travels since it's hard for the ref to see the ball, the hands, the body contact, and then see if a foot shuffles a couple inches, but these were Gene Autry moves. The ref could have missed the first 2 and just called the 3rd one after his attention was drawn to it.
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11-18-2017, 07:42 AM
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Problem is when you question Teddy's manhood and officiating abilities. I got the stare a few years ago at the Arena...then I remembered his quickness of terminating coaches and fans attendance in the facility...laid a little lower after that.
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11-18-2017, 07:49 AM
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*and 'safety'
Originally Posted by Gazoo
There were 3 BLATANT travels that were not called, all within a 3 minute span.
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I missed the whole game so I can't comment but if you have a sec, tell me where these 3 travels occurred. I'm just curious.
Please keep in mind the word/concept of 'advantage' when critiquing calls. It's the determining factor in the split-second allowed when making/not making a call.
If a ball is inbounded under no pressure 94' from the basket and the player takes a step, it probably won't be called...as opposed to a player on the low post receiving a pass and taking an extra step. Why? ADVANTAGE!
Why are some defenders allowed to bump and others get called for a foul? Because not every bump gives that player an advantage. Bump, bump, bump on the way down court but don't impede their direction or speed...no call. Bump, bump, bump to prevent a player from changing direction...tweet! It's really not that difficult a concept but at full speed at eye-level with the players, it's not easy to be as perfect as some unknowledgeable UDPriders unreasonably expect from people who have dedicated their lives to the game.
Same with physical contact. If no advantage is gained as 2 bodies rub against each other, you won't get a call yet 90% of fans want all contact penalized. Believe me, you don't. Using your best judgement to assess advantage allows for the game to flow smoothly and puts the focus on the players and the game, not the Royal refs.
I had a girl b*tching up a storm thursday night at a scrimmage about being fouled every time she has the ball and I said 'honey, basketball is a contact sport and if there's no advantage, I'm not calling it.' and man, was she PO'd! But it's a fact...and I gave her the same respect on defense. Basketball is a contact sport and every* call is about that one word...advantage.
I don't expect the dumb-masses to read this post and suddenly become enlightened, but if my words help save the life of just one child or deliver a meal to a homeless heroin addict, it was worth it.
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11-18-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I missed the whole game so I can't comment but if you have a sec, tell me where these 3 travels occurred. I'm just curious.
Please keep in mind the word/concept of 'advantage' when critiquing calls. It's the determining factor in the split-second allowed when making/not making a call.
If a ball is inbounded under no pressure 94' from the basket and the player takes a step, it probably won't be called...as opposed to a player on the low post receiving a pass and taking an extra step. Why? ADVANTAGE!
Why are some defenders allowed to bump and others get called for a foul? Because not every bump gives that player an advantage. Bump, bump, bump on the way down court but don't impede their direction or speed...no call. Bump, bump, bump to prevent a player from changing direction...tweet! It's really not that difficult a concept but at full speed at eye-level with the players, it's not easy to be as perfect as some unknowledgeable UDPriders unreasonably expect from people who have dedicated their lives to the game.
Same with physical contact. If no advantage is gained as 2 bodies rub against each other, you won't get a call yet 90% of fans want all contact penalized. Believe me, you don't. Using your best judgement to assess advantage allows for the game to flow smoothly and puts the focus on the players and the game, not the Royal refs.
I had a girl b*tching up a storm thursday night at a scrimmage about being fouled every time she has the ball and I said 'honey, basketball is a contact sport and if there's no advantage, I'm not calling it.' and man, was she PO'd! But it's a fact...and I gave her the same respect on defense. Basketball is a contact sport and every* call is about that one word...advantage.
I don't expect the dumb-masses to read this post and suddenly become enlightened, but if my words help save the life of just one child or deliver a meal to a homeless heroin addict, it was worth it.
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The most obvious one was referenced above. The guy jab stepped right, took a step left, went to his right, and (IIRC) before his dribble hit the ground was fouled by Svoboda. The fans went nuts. They called the foul. And no, there was no contact at all until after both travels. The ref could have called either one.
2 others were similar but without the final step. Jab step, take a step, then start dribbling. I could beat a lot of guys off the dribble if that was allowed. Looked more like a foot skills drill a running back would do with the ladder on the floor than a basketball play.
Advantage: offense.
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11-18-2017, 12:43 PM
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And what Rollo mentions goes for soccer, etc...just so some parents know...
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11-18-2017, 07:28 PM
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Disagreeing with a refs judgement call doesn't make them suck...not knowing WTF you're doing makes a ref suck. And I got a firsthand close-up of a ref that sucks this morning at a varsity scrimmage. Yes, I said 'varsity'! UGH!!!
What makes a ref suck?
When the ball goes out of bounds in front of you and you don't blow your whistle to stop the clock...you know you suck.
When a player shoots a '3' right in front of you and you don't signal for it, leaving everyone guessing if you're paying attention...you know you suck.
When a player makes a '3' right in front of you and you don't signal for it, putting your partners in awkward positions to explain what happened...you know you suck.
When the ball goes out of bounds off of white and you give the ball to white for the inbound play...you know you suck.
When you're the lead official and you only watch the ball and not your territory so when kids in the lane get hacked, mugged or trampled over, you can't make the call because you didn't see it...you know you suck.
When you're the center official and you keep running down to the baseline leaving 1/3 of the court unobserved...you know you suck.
When you blow your whistle, stopping a fast break layup, because a girl's headband fell off on the other side of the court a full 85 feet from action...you know you suck.
When you blow your whistle stopping play because a coach yells 'subs', you know you suck.
When your 2 partners spend more time wondering where you are and what you'll screw up next than they do watching the action, you know you suck.
I could go on and on about today, but I think you get the point.
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11-18-2017, 09:02 PM
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Rollo, just rewatched Hofstra. About 1:40 left 69-69, X gets offensive rebound. 12 on Hofstra pushed X into 11 and call on X. 11 makes 2 FTs. Think they miss it and big crucial call. Should be Dayton up 2 instead. 40 seconds left and charge on X. I think 2 gets him with body and arm before charge (other player takes charge). Results in Dayton fouling and costing 1 point. This is closer call and split second so I can see how miss it and this one is arguable. First one IMHO with 1:40 left is obvious mistake.
Dayton should be beating Hofstra by a ton and calls should not matter. Teddy actually had a good game as well as dark hair ref. Short grey hair made the rebounding call on X, missed 3-4 step travel, etc., etc.
Refs like #50 reason Dayton lost.
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11-18-2017, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin
Rollo, just rewatched Hofstra. About 1:40 left 69-69, X gets offensive rebound. 12 on Hofstra pushed X into 11 and call on X. 11 makes 2 FTs. Think they miss it and big crucial call. Should be Dayton up 2 instead. 40 seconds left and charge on X. I think 2 gets him with body and arm before charge (other player takes charge). Results in Dayton fouling and costing 1 point. This is closer call and split second so I can see how miss it and this one is arguable. First one IMHO with 1:40 left is obvious mistake.
Dayton should be beating Hofstra by a ton and calls should not matter. Teddy actually had a good game as well as dark hair ref. Short grey hair made the rebounding call on X, missed 3-4 step travel, etc., etc.
Refs like #50 reason Dayton lost.
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Sorry I missed this game because I'd love to have taped and re-reviewed these calls.
My first question, having seen nothing, is about the 'push'. Was it a bump-push or did he actually extend his arms and physically push XW? If it's a bump-push, it comes down to 'advantage' and could be ignored for being incidental. If it's extended arms, then by definition it's a foul and the ref missed it. If the ball is loose, forget what I said because everyone has the right to that ball and you overlook a lot of contact that otherwise you'd call.
FYI...pregame talk stuff...if a defender puts 2 hands on the offensive player with the ball, it a foul automatically! Or, if they place a hand on their back and straighten their arm, the foul is automatic. These are just some of the things that you need to assess in 0.0001 seconds - or less - at eye level and full speed.
FWIW, I did a 2-hour varsity scrimmage and 3 CYO games today and wish I could have done more. I'm doing 3 tomorrow and wish it were 6. If you love basketball, and like getting paid to exercise, get certified and join me!
Seriously!
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11-18-2017, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
FWIW, I did a 2-hour varsity scrimmage and 3 CYO games today and wish I could have done more. I'm doing 3 tomorrow and wish it were 6. If you love basketball, and like getting paid to exercise, get certified and join me!
Seriously!
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But are there enough referees besides you who are willing to get abused by clueless belligerent parents to call all of the games this year? How many nights are you going to have to call both the JV and Varsity game?
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11-18-2017, 09:54 PM
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On thing about Ted Valentine is that Ted Valentine likes Ted Valentine. One ref in the early game at Charleston actually strutted down the court with high-stepping self-indulgence after making a call the fans disliked. It was not a 'misread' of body language. The ref made no attempt to disguise his own showboating -- looked like he was stepping over 36 inch track hurdles. Hadnt seen that in a while.
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11-19-2017, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by C-time
But are there enough referees besides you who are willing to get abused by clueless belligerent parents to call all of the games this year?
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My CYO partner yesterday, like me, came from a 2-hour HS scrimmage. The question rarely is 'are there enough referees?'...the question is 'are there enough good referees?'. I don't mean 'great'...most nights I'll settle for good but if I get great, everyone benefits.
In about 2 weeks, when Club BB gets rolling, I'll be doing between 4-8 games every saturday and sunday. Four in the morning...come home, watch football and 4 in the evening. It's why I keep telling all the UDPride ref-haters to earn their stupid and come on out and prove themselves with a whistle. It won't take 2 games for a new ref to realize how little the fan in the stands - or at the TV - actually know.
Originally Posted by C-time
How many nights are you going to have to call both the JV and Varsity game?
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This season...twice. With the exception of small, small schools you'll never see a varsity ref doing a JV game too. You may see a JV ref stay and do a varsity game is a varsity ref gets injured or sick, but they aren't assigned that way.
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Last edited by rollo; 11-19-2017 at 07:12 AM..
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11-19-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Sorry I missed this game because I'd love to have taped and re-reviewed these calls.
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If you have access to ESPN3/WatchESPN you can watch the replay HERE.
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11-19-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
In about 2 weeks, when Club BB gets rolling, I'll be doing between 4-8 games every saturday and sunday. Four in the morning...come home, watch football and 4 in the evening. .
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4 to 8 games per day? Are you like many who do 8 games per day, and never move more than 15 feet up or down the court the last 7 games?
Yep, bad parent / former youth coach here, but only bad when we get a ref who makes bad calls from 75 feet away!
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11-19-2017, 12:03 PM
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I vote...
Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
4 to 8 games per day? Are you like many who do 8 games per day, and never move more than 15 feet up or down the court the last 7 games?
Yep, bad parent / former youth coach here, but only bad when we get a ref who makes bad calls from 75 feet away!
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Present!
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Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
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11-19-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Present!
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Well I find that hard to believe
Now that I sorta kinda said something nice about you, Happy Thanksgiving. Off to wash my mouth out with soap.
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2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to ClaytonFlyerFan For This Totally Excellent Post:
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11-19-2017, 03:24 PM
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Rollo puts forth effort that many officials don't...and he explains the game as it progresses. We get many officials that don't take it serious because of the age of the kids. The officials that we have at our home games drive me up a wall. They are lazy and don't call the game as they should simply because of the age of the kids. When we go on the road, officials do a much better job. There are way too many variables within Dayton Metro basketball with consideration to the quality of what you get.
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2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to shocka43 For This Totally Excellent Post:
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11-19-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Rollo puts forth effort that many officials don't...and he explains the game as it progresses. We get many officials that don't take it serious because of the age of the kids. The officials that we have at our home games drive me up a wall. They are lazy and don't call the game as they should simply because of the age of the kids. When we go on the road, officials do a much better job. There are way too many variables within Dayton Metro basketball with consideration to the quality of what you get.
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I would be willing to bet I can guess who they use to assign officials at your home games! Probably the same guy I fired a few years back that the program I ran used for years before I took over. I can give you the name of an assigner who has a more energetic crew that raised the standards for us.
I have seen Rollo in action at a few camps and JV games, and yes he is one of the better officials we see around this area. Watch his head swell now!
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Mad Props to ClaytonFlyerFan For This Totally Excellent Post:
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