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Old 03-05-2018, 12:09 PM
O Doyle Rules O Doyle Rules is offline
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What IF X had met expectations this season?

What would the season been like?

What would be our record?

NCAA maybe? NIT for sure?

Would there had been any discussion about how bad Coach Grant was?

Last year's stats for Xeyrious was 8.2 pts./g, 4.8 reb/g in 22.8 minutes a game. This year he averaged 5.0 and 3.1 in 18.6 minutes.

He was the highest scorer and rebounder from last year's team we had returning. Our best 3 point shooter who was a starter and our second best free throw shooter.

To me, my expectations were more like 13 pts/g, 7 reb/g averaging about 30 minutes a game. Maybe even an all conference third team selection.

Plug in my expectations of X with the actual results of four other starters (excluding Jordan Davis assuming X would be in his spot in the lineup)

Cunningham 15.5 ppg, 8.3 rbg
D Davis 15.4 ppg, 4.1 rbg
Landers 11.1 ppg, 5.4 rbg
Crutcher 9.2 ppg, 4.3 ast/g

All four of these players exceeded my expectations statistically and I think most would tend to agree.

Looking back at our schedule, I think at least 8 of our games could possibly have been in the W column.

That puts our record at 22-8. We would be talking if we make the finals of the A-10 tourney we will be dancing. Lock on NIT with being a top seed.

And finally talk of Coach Grant being a candidate for A-10 Coach of the year.

In my humble opinion, if X had met expectations, this "What IF" could have been reality. What say you?

Last edited by O Doyle Rules; 03-05-2018 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:22 PM
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I wouldn't put 8 games out there but I would put a realistic 2 to 4.

I looked over the schedule and we didn't steal any wins. Usually in the 50-50 games you get one you shouldn't get. We didn't do any of that.

I think IF you get what he was capable of last year you get a couple more wins, but you aren't getting 8. Putting that much emphasis on X is overstating his worth. Last season he did well in part because of his supporting cast. Other than a couple clutch shots to win games, he wasn't a "put the game on his back" type of player. You have to guard the top 4 and that opens up quite a but for X last year. He would have needed to be the go to guy this year...he wasn't.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:32 PM
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King Rollo doesn't play 'if' games. The way this program has operated the past 30 years, 'if' only causes headaches, explosive diarrhea and projectile vomiting.
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2018, 12:59 PM
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i think we net 3 or 4 games if he were here, with no health or alleged attitude issues.

i think you're right . ABout 12 or 13 points, 6 boards.

Couple of key shots.

Last edited by Flyer 86; 03-05-2018 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:14 PM
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What if Christopher never sailed to the new land. No USA to stave off Germany from dominating the war.

Or

What if our fore father's didn't forsee the need to bare arms.

What shape would the world be in now, or our ability to bare arms to stave off tyranny or invasion by foreign enemies.

Sorry for hijacking thread but when I play the IF game I look at the bigger picture. That's just me.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
What would the season been like?

What would be our record?

NCAA maybe? NIT for sure?

Would there had been any discussion about how bad Coach Grant was?

Last year's stats for Xeyrious was 8.2 pts./g, 4.8 reb/g in 22.8 minutes a game. This year he averaged 5.0 and 3.1 in 18.6 minutes.

He was the highest scorer and rebounder from last year's team we had returning. Our best 3 point shooter who was a starter and our second best free throw shooter.

To me, my expectations were more like 13 pts/g, 7 reb/g averaging about 30 minutes a game. Maybe even an all conference third team selection.

Plug in my expectations of X with the actual results of four other starters (excluding Jordan Davis assuming X would be in his spot in the lineup)

Cunningham 15.5 ppg, 8.3 rbg
D Davis 15.4 ppg, 4.1 rbg
Landers 11.1 ppg, 5.4 rbg
Crutcher 9.2 ppg, 4.3 ast/g

All four of these players exceeded my expectations statistically and I think most would tend to agree.

Looking back at our schedule, I think at least 8 of our games could possibly have been in the W column.

That puts our record at 22-8. We would be talking if we make the finals of the A-10 tourney we will be dancing. Lock on NIT with being a top seed.

And finally talk of Coach Grant being a candidate for A-10 Coach of the year.

In my humble opinion, if X had met expectations, this "What IF" could have been reality. What say you?
Maybe 2 games. Not sure what you thought he was capable of but, imo, he was nothing more than a guy that liked to launch 3's and would have had probably 3-4 games this year where he hit 3 of them per game. He never defended and never ever wanted to play with his back to the basket...
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:19 PM
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1-3 games max. So I go with 2. This team is bad defensively and XW would not magically cure that.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:27 PM
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Maybe three games. Two UMass losses still make my eyes bleed. Not too mention a blowout at LaSalle. Needed better defense and tougher minded road play. Just win half your games on the road and this season looks pretty different. Tough to do though if the coach is having buy-in and effort issues.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:40 PM
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I saw where we lost 5 games either (a) in OT or (b) by 3 points or less. I can see last year’s X making that much of a difference. Assuming we win at least half (but not all) of those, that gives us a 17-13 or 18-12 record heading to DC. Possibly NIT-worthy.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:47 PM
UD_PAC_2006 UD_PAC_2006 is offline
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His absence created opportunities for other guys to step up. More than points and assists, we could have used his leadership presence as well. Also, I feel like he needed to change his style of play from 3-point specialist to shooter plus slasher. He wouldn't have been that helpful just setting up for 3's. But if he developed that into a ball-fake drive and finish/pass then it's a HUGE benefit to the team. So my guess:
- as a set shooter we win 1-2 more games
- as a versatile player we win 6-7 more games.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:48 PM
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I think if XW really ramped up his game we could be national champions!

Everyone else is dreaming. Why can't I have my own dream.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:57 PM
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I would say at most 3 or 4 out of 5 possibilities. Both UMass games, maybe Mississippi State, maybe Penn, maybe VCU. You can't count Hofstra because we most likely would have lost our next two games (Auburn and Clemson) had we beaten them.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by O Doyle Rules View Post
What would the season been like?

What would be our record?

NCAA maybe? NIT for sure?

Would there had been any discussion about how bad Coach Grant was?

Last year's stats for Xeyrious was 8.2 pts./g, 4.8 reb/g in 22.8 minutes a game. This year he averaged 5.0 and 3.1 in 18.6 minutes.

He was the highest scorer and rebounder from last year's team we had returning. Our best 3 point shooter who was a starter and our second best free throw shooter.

To me, my expectations were more like 13 pts/g, 7 reb/g averaging about 30 minutes a game. Maybe even an all conference third team selection.

Plug in my expectations of X with the actual results of four other starters (excluding Jordan Davis assuming X would be in his spot in the lineup)

Cunningham 15.5 ppg, 8.3 rbg
D Davis 15.4 ppg, 4.1 rbg
Landers 11.1 ppg, 5.4 rbg
Crutcher 9.2 ppg, 4.3 ast/g

All four of these players exceeded my expectations statistically and I think most would tend to agree.

Looking back at our schedule, I think at least 8 of our games could possibly have been in the W column.

That puts our record at 22-8. We would be talking if we make the finals of the A-10 tourney we will be dancing. Lock on NIT with being a top seed.

And finally talk of Coach Grant being a candidate for A-10 Coach of the year.

In my humble opinion, if X had met expectations, this "What IF" could have been reality. What say you?
X who?
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:02 PM
O Doyle Rules O Doyle Rules is offline
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For those who don't want to play the "What If" game, I understand.

But, I tell you what, spending a little time in What If Flyer Fantasyland is pretty nice after living through the sad reality of Flyer World this season.

So dive on in boys, the water's fine!
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I saw where we lost 5 games either (a) in OT or (b) by 3 points or less. I can see last year’s X making that much of a difference. Assuming we win at least half (but not all) of those, that gives us a 17-13 or 18-12 record heading to DC. Possibly NIT-worthy.
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Hofstra maybe. (But we won one in that tournament and a win against Hofstra most likely meant 2 losses following that to Clemson and Auburn so since we got one win against Ohio, then the net win total stays the same). So basically we get win against Hofsta instead of Ohio and get two losses to Clemson and Auburn instead of Hofsta and Old Dominion.

Miss St. Probably since Kostas started and only scored 2 for us.

UMass at Home. No. XW played 25 minutes and got us 11 points, pretty close to expectations.

UMass on the road. Yes. He gave us only four minutes and we needed more than that and we most likely wouldn't have petered out in OT or even had to play OT.

VCU on the road. I say yes on this one just for the fact that if anyone could have eaten up some minutes for the starters, we win.

So I see two to three extra wins. However, keep in mind that XW scoring doesn't get added on to the score as some of those theoretical scores would be in place of someone else's actual scoring.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:13 PM
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As someone who has been around the high school athletic block, this whole XW debacle royally baffles me. Why? you ask...because Wayne HS athletes are the toughest and most determined athletes I've come across. More than DPS...more than Trotwood...more than the GCL.

Someone got to XW's mom and dad and blew some serious and golden laced smoke up their rear-ends...and they loved it...and XW bit, too. Which is why we are where we are today.

Sad. As his UD stock rose, the Faithful were in love with him.

Since then, not so much.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:30 PM
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In the spirit of the “what if “game, Three more wins in the Atlantic 10 would’ve put us solidly in fourth place. Two wins against UMass and a season sweep of VCU would ‘ve done it. Could X have made a few critical shots in those games? Yes. This would’ve meant not dealing with Rhode Island until the semis, giving someone a chance to knock them off on Friday . We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality and depression.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
In the spirit of the “what if “game, Three more wins in the Atlantic 10 would’ve put us solidly in fourth place. Two wins against UMass and a season sweep of VCU would ‘ve done it. Could X have made a few critical shots in those games? Yes. This would’ve meant not dealing with Rhode Island until the semis, giving someone a chance to knock them off on Friday . We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality and depression.
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As I pointed out earlier, X played 25 minutes and scored 11 points in first UMass game. So I don't see why need any hypotheticals added to that game.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:44 PM
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In keeping with the "quitting" theme:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...ely-teach-quit

I would also like to direct anyone who is interested to reading the player profile in Saturday's program about Ryan Perryman (and any other player on JOB's teams who were here when OP was hired). Most, if not all, of the carryovers considered transferring but didn't. To his credit, Ryan Perryman considers those players (he, Andy Myer, etc) the building blocks to the success of the past several years.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:49 PM
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Defense was and is the issue during the 2017-2018 season. Offense about #100 in the country, but defense about #250. Don't think X all in would have helped materially on defense. So perhaps 0-2 games at most because of better offense and leadership. But don't really see that much of difference.

Anthony Grant has historically been a great defensive coach, this year is the outlier.

2018-2019 must see material improvement in defense, defense, and defense.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
i think we net 3 or 4 games if he were here, with no health or alleged attitude issues.

i think you're right . ABout 12 or 13 points, 6 boards.

Couple of key shots.
yeah, i should add the defensive part of the game, where I doubt he would have helped us much at all.

And while he would have played more, very likely Landers would have played less. So the silver lining is the development and moxie of Trey. Amazing year for him!
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
because Wayne HS athletes are the toughest and most determined athletes I've come across. More than DPS...more than Trotwood...more than the GCL.
It's because they recruit
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:25 PM
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Not sure. X has long arms and can impact the defense. The team was short without him. (that was because of the lack of minutes of Kostas till late).

There are other factors. The team wore down at the end of the game. When your players play close to 40 minutes and the other team does not, you wear down on defense and offense at the end of games.

Lack of depth was a big issue this year. The team would go big time negative on +- when subs came in.

We can play what if, but it is time to look forward.

In the public eye, we want all players to be stud god like warriors. They are human. There have been lots of college students who faced issues and struggled to do what everyone else expected.

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Old 03-05-2018, 03:29 PM
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This is almost impossible to weigh on statistical analysis alone. There's so many intangibles that factor in.

I saw a post or two related to the development of Landers in the "absence" of XW this year. Ideally, I would like to think we could have seen that progress from Landers AND have XW on the floor playing at his highest level. IF not, I wouldn't want to trade what we've seen out of Landers in exchange for peak performances from XW, particularly if the XW issues have been attitude and commitment related, as has been speculated.

I LOVE what I've seen from Landers this year. He can be an absolute force on the floor, both ends. If he continues to develop a three ball, to the point where they have to respect it, he'll be an all conference player.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:14 PM
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I thought before the season that we'd be 15-15 so I'm going for a 1 game difference to make my prediction look better. If XW is reading this post then I'm going with 0. Like many on this board, I'm more than a fan. I feel like I'm part of the team. It's OUR team. XW took the selfish and easy way out so I feel like he hurt us all. I think I'm done talking about him. Good riddance!

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Old 03-05-2018, 10:54 PM
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Not so sure X was a defensive wiz.

That's where we were repeatedly hurt this year.

Maybe one or two.
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Old 03-05-2018, 11:32 PM
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Once I learned that his name began with an X, he was dead to me.
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:27 AM
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Still .500!
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Hofstra maybe. (But we won one in that tournament and a win against Hofstra most likely meant 2 losses following that to Clemson and Auburn so since we got one win against Ohio, then the net win total stays the same). So basically we get win against Hofsta instead of Ohio and get two losses to Clemson and Auburn instead of Hofsta and Old Dominion.

Miss St. Probably since Kostas started and only scored 2 for us.

UMass at Home. No. XW played 25 minutes and got us 11 points, pretty close to expectations.

UMass on the road. Yes. He gave us only four minutes and we needed more than that and we most likely wouldn't have petered out in OT or even had to play OT.

VCU on the road. I say yes on this one just for the fact that if anyone could have eaten up some minutes for the starters, we win.

So I see two to three extra wins. However, keep in mind that XW scoring doesn't get added on to the score as some of those theoretical scores would be in place of someone else's actual scoring.
Good points, Smitty10. In light of those observations, I’ll say we would have been 3 wins better if last year’s XW had shown-up for those games, as MSU, UMass at UMass, and VCU at VCU would very possibly have gone in our favor. So 17-13 heading into DC, and possibly an NIT berth. Certainly not 23-7, though. We would have needed an XW who gave a shizzit and a Big Steve (RIP, #5) to see a 9-game improvement from where we are now.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:13 AM
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Just got to pondering “what could have been” with next year’s projected Senior class, if you go back to the fall of 2015:
-Mikesell, healthy and contributing;
-Williams, on the trajectory that he had established in his first 2 years here;
-Miller, who had some size & shooting ability;
-Cunningham, who has generally given us what we hoped for when his transfer was announced;
-Crosby, who was a decently-rated recruit at the time; and let’s not forget
-Big Steve, who would have been in his Senior season on the court.

The only things missing from that combo were a shooting guard, a “slasher” (and XW could perhaps have filled that role), and a lock-down defender. Otherwise, that would have been a Sweet Sixteen contender.

Ah, the story of being a UD fan. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:23 AM
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Just think - what if Wilt had come to UD? And if Roger Brown played?

We are going to have to build a new imaginary arena to hold all the what if banners.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:47 AM
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Never heard this?

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
What if Christopher never sailed to the new land. No USA to stave off Germany from dominating the war.

Or

What if our fore father's didn't forsee the need to bare arms.

What shape would the world be in now, or our ability to bare arms to stave off tyranny or invasion by foreign enemies.

Sorry for hijacking thread but when I play the IF game I look at the bigger picture. That's just me.
Hold on, are you telling us that the fore fathers were early adopters of tank tops?
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
This is almost impossible to weigh on statistical analysis alone. There's so many intangibles that factor in.

I saw a post or two related to the development of Landers in the "absence" of XW this year. Ideally, I would like to think we could have seen that progress from Landers AND have XW on the floor playing at his highest level. IF not, I wouldn't want to trade what we've seen out of Landers in exchange for peak performances from XW, particularly if the XW issues have been attitude and commitment related, as has been speculated.

I LOVE what I've seen from Landers this year. He can be an absolute force on the floor, both ends. If he continues to develop a three ball, to the point where they have to respect it, he'll be an all conference player.
I think that's what everyone has to understand, and we have this same problem every year after the red and blue game. "If all 4 of our guards can average 10-15 PPG we'll be awesome!!"

If XW is playing major minutes and delivering then Trey under-delivers. You can't take Trey's 11 PPG and add XW's 15 PPG to get 26 PPG from the 2.

If Trey really had it in him to develop like that in a backup role, and XW delivered at a high level, then it's probably only worth 2 games because it gives AG more flexibility and gives guys a rest. Let's not forget more rest MIGHT mean better defense, so at the extreme 3 games??

This is an NIT team (playing their first game on the road), tops, if everything fell into place.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I think that's what everyone has to understand, and we have this same problem every year after the red and blue game. "If all 4 of our guards can average 10-15 PPG we'll be awesome!!"

If XW is playing major minutes and delivering then Trey under-delivers. You can't take Trey's 11 PPG and add XW's 15 PPG to get 26 PPG from the 2.

If Trey really had it in him to develop like that in a backup role, and XW delivered at a high level, then it's probably only worth 2 games because it gives AG more flexibility and gives guys a rest. Let's not forget more rest MIGHT mean better defense, so at the extreme 3 games??

This is an NIT team (playing their first game on the road), tops, if everything fell into place.
Not sure, but I think people are forgetting that both XW and Trey were starters day one of the season. Jordan Davis is who moved into the starter's role eventually due to XW's absence from it. The only way Trey doesn't get the opportunity would've been if Mikesell wasn't injured.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Not sure, but I think people are forgetting that both XW and Trey were starters day one of the season. Jordan Davis is who moved into the starter's role eventually due to XW's absence from it. The only way Trey doesn't get the opportunity would've been if Mikesell wasn't injured.
We moved from a 2 guard (or 3 if you count Trey) to a 3 guard (or 4 if you count Trey) offense over the course of the season. So yes Trey and XW were both playing, but if XW was playing at a high level and AG went with the 4 guard lineup, then Trey would have been out.

But I get your point.

I hope you get mine, that someone doesn't develop if XW is eating up all those productive minutes.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
We moved from a 2 guard (or 3 if you count Trey) to a 3 guard (or 4 if you count Trey) offense over the course of the season. So yes Trey and XW were both playing, but if XW was playing at a high level and AG went with the 4 guard lineup, then Trey would have been out.

But I get your point.

I hope you get mine, that someone doesn't develop if XW is eating up all those productive minutes.
Yep, I get it. But wasn't Trey considered a tweener and probably would be left in a "4 guard lineup"? Has AG even used a 4 guard lineup this season meaning Davis-Davis-Crutcher-Crosby/Westerfield? Trey would certainly seem a more logical choice to put with 3 of those.

But if XW was performing, I think Jordan Davis just becomes a part of the 3 or 4 guard rotation and still get plenty of minutes, just not quite as many as he has. Though, maybe it's Kostas who doesn't get a chance like he has the past couple games.

Anyway, IMO, Trey wasn't going to be denied no matter what. Nobody with that kind of energy, confidence and leadership is.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:44 PM
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Wow, Gazoo & Smitty10! You're proving that 2 people can actually having a substantive, thoughtful discussion on a fan board! What a concept!

Actually, I agree in large part with both of your points. While you can't simply add what we thought XW would deliver to what TL actually did deliver, we can say that TL, JoshC, DD, and others in the frontcourt rotation would probably have been more productive down the stretch with another experienced, capable body eating 20-25 minutes/game at the 4/5 spots.

Then there's the issue of weighing the "DD got worn-out" variable against the "TL really came-on this year" variable. It's anybody's guess how much the expected XW contribution (11-13 PPG & 5-7 RPG, with a few blocked shots here or there thrown-in for good measure) would have meant toward our overall record, once you decrease TL's impact (from playing fewer minutes at the 4, and spending a portion of those at the 3, spelling DD).

I still think a 3-game improvement in the record, and an NIT bid (probably on the road, as someone else said) would have been the best we could have gotten, even with a healthy & engaged XW.

Now, add a motivated Sam M and a healthy Ryan M, and you might have another 3-4 wins, and then we'd have been in "bubble" territory. But then you're getting into "ifs and buts" territory.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:34 PM
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I think one item still missing from this discussion is depth. Minutes played. Josh, Jalen and Dd played too many minutes. Period. They also played weaker defense for fear of fouling.

The lack of players and bench hurt especially when the opponents can keep players a bit fresher.

It was not a matter of X or Trey, but rather could the players have fresher legs at the of the game. I don’t buy the players can play 40 minutes without drop off. You might find an exception, but basketball is super physical now. If you play 38 minutes and you are matched against a player who played 28 minutes, he has an advantage late in the game.


X, Svoboda, Crosby and Kostas could not deliver quality minutes.


Btw. You could start three more threads.
1. What if Kostas played better? All year, not just last couple of home games.
2. What if Svoboda played better and hit some 3s?
3. What if played better?
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