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Old 03-03-2018, 11:02 PM
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The Key to Offensive Success - Dribble Penetration

Priders: I have spent a lot of time this season watching the opposition pummel the Flyers' defense this year. Even today I was in attendance at the GW game and they schooled the Flyers on many offensive series. GW had a lot of points in the paint, many of the points initiated by dribble penetration. It inspired me to watch a lot of other games this season to determine if there is a common thread among the successful offensive teams...and there is...it is DRIBBLE PENETRATION. That is where most of the offensive success originates in today's college game. Everything good on offense starts with dribble penetration. And unfortunately, the Flyers are not necessarily strong at this part of the game. In fact, not only are they at best mediocre in initiating dribble penetration on the offensive side, on the defensive side the Flyers aren't necessarily good at containing dribble penetration. This is not a recipe for success on either side of the ball.

Dribble penetration forces the defense to cover up the ball-handler, which results in an easy cut to the bucket if the defender covering-up is a front-liner, or a kick-out for an uncontested three-ball if the covering-up defender is a guard.

Nothing against Jalen Crutcher, as I think he had done a superb job at point guard for a freshman. He is effective at dribble penetration going coast-to-coast, but in the half-court, he is much less effective at it. Jordan Davis is OK with dribble penetration, but not to the level that we have seen in other A-10 guards or other guards that we have faced...think Tayler Persons on Ball State, Jalen Adams, or Matt Mobley, both of Bonnie. These are the guards that can really ignite an offense and eliminate what we have seen so much of, including today, extensive perimeter passing with the the clock eventually forcing a bad shot. I realize we defeated both Ball State and Bonnie, but that does not mean that we were successful in containing dribble penetration.

Defensively, I think Crutcher needs more strength to keep dribble penetration at a minimum. He is a freshman and I think this will come. I think Jordan Davis is much better at controlling dribble penetration, but we have no one like London Warren or Kyle Davis, both of whom could contain dribble penetration and thus force an offense to take another route to the bucket. In fact, they were two of the best Flyers in the modern era, along with Edward Young, at keeping guards from penetrating into the paint.

My conclusion is these are two things that must improve if the Flyers are to improve next year - be better at initiating dribble penetration on the offensive side and controlling dribble penetration on the defensive side of the ball.

I would like to hear positive or negative responses on my theory to next year's success.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:31 AM
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penetration is great at setting up guys for open looks from 3 and getting to the free throw line

Landers seem like the best guy we have at attacking the basket currently
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:19 PM
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Great Observations

and we can take it a step further. How many first team all-A-10 players has Dayton recruited over the years? Not many for as storied a program as the Flyers are. Dayton needs to recruit better players in future years to have the kind of success the Faithful want. To do that Dayton needs to keep it's airport open for business and the physical plant at the top of the conference.
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Old 03-04-2018, 03:17 PM
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Finding guys that are great at isn't easy to do. I'm watching Loyola Illinois State right now and Loyola doesn't have guys that are greatest athletes but they do a good job using driving to set up open 3 point shooters. Great to have and someone who can drive and get easy buckets but we gotta create with the skills and talents of the guys we have available.

Defensively I think experience and physical development will help Crutcher/J. Davis.

If Kostas can become a shot blocking presence in the middle that can help cover guys who get beat on defense. Guys can gamble more on D, go for steals, etc. if they know they have some protection around the rim
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:03 PM
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You can score with lots of motion and off ball screens as well.

This team was OK to good to great all year on offense.

If I am coach a Grant, I work on stopping dribble penetration and switch on picks better. The team was consistently awful all year in those categories.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:13 PM
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Too many missing Tommy's point. We have zero ability to take guys off the dribble. DD is our best but fumbles it away half the time. Landers?? NFW is he a penetrator! Maybe Cohill or Metos have the ability. Without it--- well we see the results.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:17 AM
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Agree with the assessment but I also blame the lack of defensive rotations.

Help D and rotating to cover the help isn't in this team's DNA. Whether it is execution or design, there have been way more times than I can count where a guy gets blown by on the perimeter and we have two guys standing outside the help line watching a guy blow down the lane.

Now, due to depth and potential foul trouble...that may have been by design. It also may have been by design due to the opposition having a good perimeter shooting game...unfortunately, an uncontested layup is a hell of a lot higher percentage shot than a 3 ball.

If you can't stop guards from getting into the paint, you are in for some long games.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
penetration is great at setting up guys for open looks from 3 and getting to the free throw line

Landers seem like the best guy we have at attacking the basket currently
Landers and Cunningham are the most agressive, and Landers is more "dribble into traffic make good things happen drive"

We do need another guard to buy in and be solid on dribble drive and another big.

I'm thinking Ryan M steps up next year , possible another guard and either Matej or OBi.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:41 PM
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GREAT First post starter. Thanks. Absolutely spot on.

Does losing DD help in this regard? I think it wlll. While he's able to score himself while also turning it over, not sure how much he's drawing and/or helping his teammates. havent' seen enough games to know. But i think his departure will be a net gain, in ball movement. Having said that, I liked his early in year and senior night assertive scoring energy. We needed it at times.

I'll just leave DD comments there. Respecting our senior and all. Much luck and success to you Darryl!
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
penetration is great at setting up guys for open looks from 3 and getting to the free throw line

Landers seem like the best guy we have at attacking the basket currently
Landers and Cunningham are the most agressive, and Landers is more "dribble into traffic make good things happen drive"

We do need another guard to buy in and be solid on dribble drive and another big.

I'm thinking Ryan M steps up next year , possible another guard and either Matej or OBi.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:54 PM
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I understand the idea of the post.

You want to make the offense more efficient and effective. There is always room for improvement, but I think the offensive efficiency go better as the year went on. Many turnovers were unforced. All that happened without great dribble penetration.

Make the offense better. I get it, but unless the defense gets better, making the offense better will not give much improvement in terms of wins and losses.

Scoochie was not great at dribble penetration, but he picked his spots and was outstanding, but... he picked his spots.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:26 PM
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Postive points on offense for the year:
(1) #104 in the nation scoring 109.2 points per 100 offensive possessions.
(2) 55.9% effective field goal percentage for #22 in the nation!
(3) 72.8% FT percentage for #122 in the nation.
(4) only 7.8% of shots blocked for #69 in the nation.

Bad points on offense for the year.
(1) Lack of dribble drive penetration = lack of getting to the foul line. Only 17.3% of points at the foul line for #270 in the nation; Free throw rate = FTA (Free-Throws Attempted)/FGA (Field Goals Attempted); Dayton is 32% or #218 in the country . Simplifying massively, but think if Dayton shoots 70% from the foul line (ignoring 1 and 1s and 1s, etc.), going to the foul line gives 1.4 points per possession. Average 3 point shooting team shoots 35% from 3 giving 1.05 point per possession. Average 2 point shooting team shoots 50% from 2 giving 1 point per possession. Again, massively simplified, but dribble drives create more fouls and therefore foul shots which are the most efficient play in basketball.
(2) Turnovers, Dayton turning it over 20.4% of possessions or #294 in the nation. If assume score 1 point per possession, which is low, each turnover costs a point. Taking this from 20% to 15% and assuming 75 possessions a game equates to 2 or 3 more points a game.
(3) Dayton is only getting offensive rebounds on 25.3% of missed shots for #282 in the nation. If take this up to 30%, again another 2 or 3 points per game. Assume every offensive rebound in a game is worth one point.

So on offense, drive more with more foul shots, turn it over less, and hit the offensive glass more. Obvious points, but Dayton shooting the ball overall excellent (great from 2, good from foul line, and honestly not great from 3), but overall 59.2% is fantastic. More possessions by less turnovers and more offensive rebounds and the team scores 4-6 points per game more.

P.S. Ignoring defense in this thread, but agree with SeasonTicketFan and Shocka43, defense was and is problems #1, #2, and #3 for the 2017-2018 season.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:28 PM
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Dribble penetration is high-risk, high-reward. You don't want everyone to do it, only those who are capable. And it's a select few who are capable.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I understand the idea of the post.

You want to make the offense more efficient and effective. There is always room for improvement, but I think the offensive efficiency go better as the year went on. Many turnovers were unforced. All that happened without great dribble penetration.

Make the offense better. I get it, but unless the defense gets better, making the offense better will not give much improvement in terms of wins and losses.

Scoochie was not great at dribble penetration, but he picked his spots and was outstanding, but... he picked his spots.
Overall offensive efficiency 109.2 points per 100 possessions, conference offensive efficiency 108.2 points per 100 possessions. So offensive flattish to slightly down from non-con to conference play. Turnovers 20.4% of possessions overall and 20.3% of possessions in conference play.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:32 PM
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Tempo was too slow this year
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Tempo was too slow this year
exact same tempo as 2013-2014 where Dayton was #37 in offense, one of best offenses the last 25 years.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
exact same tempo as 2013-2014 where Dayton was #37 in offense, one of best offenses the last 25 years.
Because there were guys that could score in a half court set then...not so much this year.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
exact same tempo as 2013-2014 where Dayton was #37 in offense, one of best offenses the last 25 years.
problem then too.
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Old 03-05-2018, 05:41 PM
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Dribble drive requires four things: a good handle, respect for your outside shot, good court vision and quickness. How many of our guys do well on those?
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:18 PM
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Perhaps the best advantage of penetration is the ability pull up and get a shot. One of our greatest weaknesses is that we just don't have a guy who can take over and get a shot when needed. Previously, Scoochie, Cooke and to some extent Pollard all had some ability. Today, no one, save DD and his butterfinger drives.
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Dribble drive requires four things: a good handle, respect for your outside shot, good court vision and quickness. How many of our guys do well on those?
I agree.

I think we may see more of this out of Crutcher and Jordan Davis.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
I agree.

I think we may see more of this out of Crutcher and Jordan Davis.
AGreed, And we also don't know what we will see out of Cohill.

Or Matos.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Dribble drive requires four things: a good handle, respect for your outside shot, good court vision and quickness. How many of our guys do well on those?
London Warren had no shot and was able to get to the basket
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
London Warren had no shot and was able to get to the basket
No doubt, he was great at getting to the basket on occasion. However, we are talking about dribble drive, the guys who can consistently penetrate and dish or shoot. Remember the teams that played defense way off of Warren, because he had no shot.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
London Warren had no shot and was able to get to the basket
Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
No doubt, he was great at getting to the basket on occasion. However, we are talking about dribble drive, the guys who can consistently penetrate and dish or shoot. Remember the teams that played defense way off of Warren, because he had no shot.
I don't think London got to the rim very often when we they were running a half court set. Too much sag. It helped when Rob Lowery was there because I think teams were confused as to which one was on the court.
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