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  #1  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:33 PM
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That loss is on Archie

Waited way too long to take the freshman out and put Sibert and Oliver back in the game.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:37 PM
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how about lets change whats working the whole game and take the ball and stand at half court till there is 8 secs on the shot clock, absolutely blame that loss on archie, same thing with the last play, lets stand at half court till there is 4 secs to go
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:38 PM
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get the ball to Sibert in that situation.
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:38 PM
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I would tend to agree. The Flyers lost all their momentum during that stretch. Nothing against Pollard and Smith, but we needed a bit more experience and defensive play. The Flyers failed to finish around the basket all night long...size matters underneath the basket.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:39 PM
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Cardinal rule is to continue to do what got you there; we played keepaway and lost the game. I hope AM learns from this one...
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:40 PM
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This is as tough a loss as I can remember in the last few years. Had it won.
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:41 PM
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This is sort of how we lost games last year. Milk the lead, milk the clock, stop attacking, and lose momentum. Like the Temple home loss last year...
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:42 PM
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That second half was some "Gregory Ball" if there ever was any.
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:43 PM
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Tough loss but I'm still on the wagon. I like what I see and think this team is NCAA bound this year.
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
That second half was some "Gregory Ball" if there ever was any.
Unless BG is pulling the strings from Atlanta, that was 100% Archie Ball!
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  #11  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:46 PM
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Yep, I blame Archie too. Afterall he is the one who built the team, recruited the freshmen and sophomores, coached the team and put us in position to even be in the game in the final seconds against a top 20 team. (EDIT- SARCASM WHEN I BLAME ARCHIE- BUT HAVE TO SPELL OUT WHEN IT IS SARCASM AS SOME ON HERE JUST DONT GET IT)

Moral victorys suck, but you have to feel good about the direction we are heading as a program. Still feeling quite optimistic about the season ahead.

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  #12  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:46 PM
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Tomorrow's game is actually very important. We will find out the mental makeup of our guys. Let's see how they respond to such a crushing defeat. Do they come out angry and take it out on Cal or fold like a cheap suit and head back it Dayton with their tails between their legs?
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:47 PM
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Yeah lets blame it on the coach! How original... Idiots!
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:47 PM
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I thought that Archie had the team well disciplined and playing with sensible strategy. We missed a lot of very short shots at the end.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:47 PM
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What a stupid post. This team would not be where they are without Archie. If Scott makes that bunny or boxes his guy out on that offensive rebound the Flyers are going to the finals tomorrow.
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:49 PM
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  #17  
Old 11-26-2013, 11:51 PM
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Someone better talk me off the ledge. I swear I'm fn jumping. Toughest loss in 10 years (DePaul NCAA)
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Crunk Juice View Post
What a stupid post. This team would not be where they are without Archie. If Scott makes that bunny or boxes his guy out on that offensive rebound the Flyers are going to the finals tomorrow.
So blowing a 10pt lead with you best offensive weapons on the bench is not on Archie? Granted 1 had 4 fouls, but they should have been back in when you called a timeout at 4:59 when they made their run. Not after the 4 min timeout. Don't get me wrong I have been and am still a huge Archie fan and supporter of this team. But I have no problem calling a spade a spade.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:52 PM
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Cow. C O W. Eieio. Dangnabbit
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:53 PM
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Then give credit to Archie for beating gonzaga
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:53 PM
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
Tomorrow's game is actually very important. We will find out the mental makeup of our guys. Let's see how they respond to such a crushing defeat. Do they come out angry and take it out on Cal or fold like a cheap suit and head back it Dayton with their tails between their legs?

Spot on. These guys have been playing with so much confidence until we decided to play Milk the Clock in the second half. Hopefully this does not crush that confidence...
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Then give credit to Archie for beating gonzaga
When did I not?
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crunk Juice View Post
Hindsight is 20/20

Armchair QB's know best

Everyone is an expert
You don't think taking the air out of the ball the final 8 min and leaving your best 2 players on the bench had anything to do with losing that game?
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:55 PM
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How bout just giving credit whereccreditbis due? Baylor is a very solid team and a tough matchup for this team. Coulda, shoulda won, but things are heading in the right direction.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:56 PM
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Wink Not So Much!

Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
Unless BG is pulling the strings from Atlanta, that was 100% Archie Ball!
That just means he is not as bad at "Gregory Ball" as the original Gregory...because nobody, and I mean nobody, could be lesser included at it than mini me BG himself.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:58 PM
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Whoever just gave me the red bar and left the message dumb ****** I am guess that is a 6 letter word beginning with F. Message me and I will give you my address so you can say that to my face. This stupid rep system has got to go.

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Old 11-26-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSixthMan View Post
Yeah lets blame it on the coach! How original... Idiots!

Totally!

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Old 11-26-2013, 11:59 PM
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We dominated the game -- Archie out coached Drew for the first 15 minutes of the 1H and first 15 minutes of the 2H. Unfortunately each half has 20 minutes. Still on the bandwagon, but this is one of the major differences between us and Xavier, Butler, etc. They have consistently won these type of games and we have lost. Archie has done a great job overall, but I fault him here as well: (1) the man guarding the inbounds passer when the offense is under the bucket has been overplaying to the 3 point line the last games -- Baylor saw it on film and abused us for 3 or 4 buckets and Archie never adjusted; (2) how do you not put the ball in Devin's or Jordan's hands at the end of the game -- Vee is a great driver but shooing 40% for the year; (3) we did not effectively use our timeouts to slow their momentum; (4) we do not box out when we switched (perhaps the coaches told the players this but we didn't execute; and (5) he did not put Sibert in early enough with 5-6 minutes remaining -- many people behind Archie including myself were pleading with him to put Sibert in.

So Archie great job getting us here and I am on the bandwagon, but Archie got out-coached in crunch time today.
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2013, 12:05 AM
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So we are 5 - 1. Stole one vs. IPFW and gave one away tonight. So we are right where we are supposed to be. Let's go beat Cal!
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
So blowing a 10pt lead with you best offensive weapons on the bench is not on Archie? Granted 1 had 4 fouls, but they should have been back in when you called a timeout at 4:59 when they made their run. Not after the 4 min timeout. Don't get me wrong I have been and am still a huge Archie fan and supporter of this team. But I have no problem calling a spade a spade.
Unfortunately, I agree. He made a huge mistake here and applaud Flyer Fans calling a spade a spade. Let's win tomorrow, beating Cal is key to a successful Maui. I still am on the UD bandwagon, but this is the toughest loss since DePaul in NCAA OT.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:06 AM
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I really think that this loss is on Scott. He may be our future center, but his head was not in the game. The Baylor bigs ate his lunch all game long, but particularly the two offensive plays near the end of the game where he missed an uninspired mid-range jumper and a bunny back-to-back. I thought Kavs had a better game than Scott, and even though he was in foul trouble, I would've liked to see him in the game at the end.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
Tomorrow's game is actually very important. We will find out the mental makeup of our guys. Let's see how they respond to such a crushing defeat. Do they come out angry and take it out on Cal or fold like a cheap suit and head back it Dayton with their tails between their legs?
Yep.

I think Cal is actually better than Baylor. They're not in the rankings now, but I think they will be. It doesn't matter that it's a third place game. To the selection committee, it's just a neutral floor game. As ironic as this may seem, I think losing to Baylor and beating Cal may do more for them than beating Baylor and losing to Syracuse. Of course, beating Baylor and Syracuse would have been the ultimate, but you still have the chance to pick up a really big win tomorrow.

It's a bigger game than what most people realize. Most probably just consider it a consolation game, but it's not. It's the same as if you were playing them on a neutral floor under any circumstance.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:10 AM
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Who drew up that inbounds play with 1 second on the shot clock? Jackie Moon?

This game was lost on the glass. Period. Didnt matter who was in there, we could not rebound. We scored more than enough points to win this one comfortably by double digits. We tried everyone -- nobody could rebound. Ben Wallace was unavailable tonight for the Flyers.

Archie cant rebound for them.

We let Baylor hit a trey with a minute to go. Wide open shot. Cant happen.
Gave up a layup with under 20 seconds left on an offensive rebound. Cant happen.

The problem was on the defensive end. We had no answer for Baylor in the last 12 minutes. They scored on pretty much every trip down the floor in some fashion. Archie tried everything. We just didnt have the muscle or height. Austin and Jefferson were not good matchups for us inside in the second half -- especially after Austin decided to actually start playing.

Is what it is. I think our deficiencies tonight can be improved. Our defense is getting better. We continue to score. Sibert is really stepping up and making tough shots. Khari is becoming the glue.

We have holes, but, I believe if we can beat Cal tomorrow, we'll bring a lot of confidence home.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:15 AM
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So we start the season 5-1 with a win over the 11th ranked team in the county and we lose by a point to the 19th ranked team in the country and suddenly it's back to thanks for nothing Archie. You know what happens just every now and then, you lose! Luckily we lost to a good team in a completely respectable game now let's take our frustrations out on cal tomorrow.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:15 AM
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We scored more than enough points to win by double digits? Chris, what the Frickers are you talking about? Not even close, not even remotely close. That is laughable!
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:16 AM
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what top 20 team loses by double digits when the opponent scores a mighty 66? None!
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
We dominated the game -- Archie out coached Drew for the first 15 minutes of the 1H and first 15 minutes of the 2H. Unfortunately each half has 20 minutes. Still on the bandwagon, but this is one of the major differences between us and Xavier, Butler, etc. They have consistently won these type of games and we have lost. Archie has done a great job overall, but I fault him here as well: (1) the man guarding the inbounds passer when the offense is under the bucket has been overplaying to the 3 point line the last games -- Baylor saw it on film and abused us for 3 or 4 buckets and Archie never adjusted; (2) how do you not put the ball in Devin's or Jordan's hands at the end of the game -- Vee is a great driver but shooing 40% for the year; (3) we did not effectively use our timeouts to slow their momentum; (4) we do not box out when we switched (perhaps the coaches told the players this but we didn't execute; and (5) he did not put Sibert in early enough with 5-6 minutes remaining -- many people behind Archie including myself were pleading with him to put Sibert in.

So Archie great job getting us here and I am on the bandwagon, but Archie got out-coached in crunch time today.
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This is exactly what I was trying to say worded much better than I did.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
what top 20 team loses by double digits when the opponent scores a mighty 66? None!

Indeed. We had no answer defensively and on the glass for their bigs. We knew that. But we still could've outscored 'em. This team has several offensive weapons now that have been running on all cylinders, but it seems like we took the shot clock all the way down nearly every possession in the final ten minutes. We got lucky a few times when DMO made that inbound lob shot with one second on the shot clock and then he drained a trey with one second on the shot clock.

Our rebounding and interior defense cost us, but we could have scored more than 67 points.

If ya can't beat 'em, outscore 'em...
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
...but Archie got out-coached in crunch time today.
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I don't think Archie got out-coached. I do think our 5-spot was dominated by Baylor's physical interior play.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Who drew up that inbounds play with 1 second on the shot clock? Jackie Moon?

This game was lost on the glass. Period. Didnt matter who was in there, we could not rebound. We scored more than enough points to win this one comfortably by double digits. We tried everyone -- nobody could rebound. Ben Wallace was unavailable tonight for the Flyers.

Archie cant rebound for them.

We let Baylor hit a trey with a minute to go. Wide open shot. Cant happen.
Gave up a layup with under 20 seconds left on an offensive rebound. Cant happen.

The problem was on the defensive end. We had no answer for Baylor in the last 12 minutes. They scored on pretty much every trip down the floor in some fashion. Archie tried everything. We just didnt have the muscle or height. Austin and Jefferson were not good matchups for us inside in the second half -- especially after Austin decided to actually start playing.

Is what it is. I think our deficiencies tonight can be improved. Our defense is getting better. We continue to score. Sibert is really stepping up and making tough shots. Khari is becoming the glue.

We have holes, but, I believe if we can beat Cal tomorrow, we'll bring a lot of confidence home.
I am on the Archie bandwagon overall, but I don't think we tried everything. Did we play 2-3 zone even 1x to mix it up? Did we press with our depth? Did we change how we were guarding their inbounds passes under the hoop when the abused us 3-4 times? Did we mix it up and not switch on high picks or go underneath them rather than switch every play (which caused the mismatches when we were out rebounded)? Did we yank players who even though they were mismatched did not box out? Sorry, but these were observations during the game a ton of people at the game had.

I love the increased defensive intensity overall. But you need to mix it up a little and we did not try everything. We simply changed the players using the same scheme. I am not saying abandon our scheme, just mix it up a couple times a half or we are too predictable.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:35 AM
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The last 5 to 8 minutes if the game Baylor stepped it up on offense and defense. They wore the Flyers down with their size.

The UD offense becomes stagnant because in part of the very good Baylor D. The last play blew up because Baylor stuffed the offense and over played Jordan. They sucked it up the last 12 seconds. UD did not on defense the last few times down the court.

Scott is still a work in progress. A sophomore who played very few minutes last year. Kav is rusty.

They had two very good wins in a row that will help the NCAA resume.

The team will bounce back. They played good defense most of the night. They shot 3s lights out. Now learn from this and finish.

A lot of basketball to be played here.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:42 AM
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The number of arm-chair coaches popping out of the woodwork here is simply mind-boggling!
I never knew there was so much coaching talent available on a simple messageboard.

I'll go with the great Al McGuire: It's 95% the horses you got, and 5% coaching.

I love our team, but Baylor had the better athletes. There is a reason they have the longest winning streak in division I.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
You got to have the horses on the floor to win the race.
Agree at NBA level, college is all about the coaching. Brad Stevens did not have top 25 talent either year he made the NCAA finals. Overall, Archie making great strides. Moreover, I would take our team overall versus Baylor's -- I am impressed with Archie's recruiting and believe we have more talent.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Agree at NBA level, college is all about the coaching. Brad Stevens did not have top 25 talent either year he made the NCAA finals. Overall, Archie making great strides. Moreover, I would take our team overall versus Baylor's -- I am impressed with Archie's recruiting and believe we have more talent.
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I deleted that post because I felt it would be interpreted the wrong way. I was referring to DO and JS on the bench. Overall, I feel we have the horses to make a run and am very happy with Archie's recruiting and the direction things are going.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:27 AM
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Come down off the ledge guys.

First, we played very very hard. Archie did a fine job coaching, We attacked well early. The play with 1 second left on the shot clock was excellent.

Baylor is big and strong. One of our strengths is taking it to the rim - especially Pierre. Tough to do against the big dudes.

Oliver played over his head - hitting more threes than any of us expected.

Sibert played well.

Foul trouble hurt us some. Price barely played the first half. Oliver had 4.

A couple of missed inside shots late really hurt.

Some Baylor offensive boards late also killed us.

We had the winning bucket rolling on the rim at the end - and it rolled off.

Above all, we are playing pretty good basketball with lots of young guy and with room for improvement. From needing a miracle against IPFW 3 weeks ago, to yesterday and today is one heck of an improvement.


We need to beat Cal tomorrow. Do that and we will be getting top 25 votes.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
We scored more than enough points to win by double digits? Chris, what the Frickers are you talking about? Not even close, not even remotely close. That is laughable!
You and I must have been watching two different games. We simply rebound the ball on the defensive end, and we win by double digits. We were up by double digits with 10-12 minutes left. Baylor couldnt stop us from scoring all night. We hit a trey with 1 second on the shot clock wrapped around an inbounds pass layup with 1 second on the shot clock. DMo is shooting out of his mind. Sibert is shooting out of his mind. Vee has the floater going. Even Scoochie got in on the act. Price drove down broadway for a huge layup late. Offensively we were good to go.

We simply prevent Baylor from getting two shots at the basket every other trip down the floor and this one is on ice with 3 minutes left. The game was in the 60s because that was the pace of the game. I read nothing further into it than that. I thought our offense tonight was as good if not better than against Gonzaga and we scored in the 80+ vs Gonzaga.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
what top 20 team loses by double digits when the opponent scores a mighty 66? None!
Tune in to Wisconsin basketball. Youll see it happen about 6 times.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:40 AM
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:07 AM
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I can only sum things up by saying that I thought the strategy from the coach was good throughout the game. I think that Baylor turned up the effort on defense for the last 5 minutes while our guys started pressing and getting the shooting yips. At the very end we had guys trying to win the game on one move and one shot going solo too much. Earlier in the game we were more relaxed and sharing the ball, making that last pass for even better opportunities. The pressure of the tightening score got to the team as a whole, IMO.
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:32 AM
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It is true that the loss is on Archie...Yes, it's now on Archie's coaching record. He's 42-28 and things are looking very positive for this season and the future.
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:35 AM
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aren't they all?
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
The credit for every win goes to the players. Always.

The blame for every loss goes on the coach. Always.
Does that mean Archie's career record is 0-28?
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:38 AM
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We got a layup and tip at the end of the game. Neither went in. A quality play to get to the hoop and enough time for a rebound. That's bad coaching?
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:50 AM
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I am not blaming anyone. I thought we had a problem for the last 5 minutes of the first half because due to foul troubles, we had a lot of mismatched pieces playing together. it killed mo going into halftime. I supposed we could have reinserted a couple of guys with 2 fouls but that could have backfired too.

I don't know when exactly, but we started playing too deliberate on offense. Too many times the ball ended up in the wrong hands. Bad shots were taken.

Give credit to Baylor, for like us against Gonzaga, they did not quit.

I agree, big game tonight. I don't know if the Gonzaga win will look all that great by year end. Beating Cal may be bigger.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
When did I not?
Where was the thread after the Gonzaga game "That win was on Archie" 30 seconds after the game ended.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:08 AM
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The loss squarely goes on the defensive efforts of this team the last 5 minutes. A sense of urgency by Baylor was NOT met with that same UD urgency. Maybe it was coaching, maybe heart by players, etc. but Baylor EXPECTED to win that game like all really good players/teams do and UD simply was not ready for the max effort needed. That can happen when you're beating a team for 35 minutes by 8-10 points.....AM can be blue in the face trying to get that effort but you need veteran leadership in a game like last night and outside of DO it's not there..yet..

Games are broken up into quadrants and in a game like this you need to score, you need to defend, you need to lay-out for balls, etc..While all is needed every minute of each game that simply is not the case, basically, for any team. But, clearly, the hustle/defensive effort needed to be escalated up a notch and it was not..
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:11 AM
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UD just wasn't tough minded enough up front. As has been pointed out a couple more D boards and make a couple of bunnies and they're playing in the final. Either way I like how patient and deliberate the guys are playing. The thing that's going to have to happen is to find easy buckets when the shooting cools. There were some droughts in the game where UD could've used a nice set play for a big to get something inside. The other way you get easy buckets is to turn the other guy over and you protect the D glass. I don't recall a fast break in the second half. There maybe was one, i just don't remember. I think the guys pushed the ball and got an easy one out of a made bucket and that was it. Good effort overall. Time to go get a W against Cal and we can all be happy with the coach again.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Who drew up that inbounds play with 1 second on the shot clock? Jackie Moon?

This game was lost on the glass. Period. Didnt matter who was in there, we could not rebound. We scored more than enough points to win this one comfortably by double digits. We tried everyone -- nobody could rebound. Ben Wallace was unavailable tonight for the Flyers.

Archie cant rebound for them.

We let Baylor hit a trey with a minute to go. Wide open shot. Cant happen.
Gave up a layup with under 20 seconds left on an offensive rebound. Cant happen.

The problem was on the defensive end. We had no answer for Baylor in the last 12 minutes. They scored on pretty much every trip down the floor in some fashion. Archie tried everything. We just didnt have the muscle or height. Austin and Jefferson were not good matchups for us inside in the second half -- especially after Austin decided to actually start playing.

.
Agreed but!

All three pointers are not created equal. In the first half the three pointers came from penetration and then the dish back outside. In the second half the three pointers more often came as time was running down. It was good to see DO make the threes but it was also an indication that the Flyers were not playing their game. DO should be underneath to contest for the offensive rebound not outside.

In the second half the Flyers traded buckets with Baylor. At the beginning it was a Flyer three for a Baylor 2 but it was a trade nonetheless. The reason was that Baylor was getting the easy layups and lobs in the second half. In the first half Baylor had to adjust to the Flyers effectiveness by going small. Dayton needed to adjust in the second half.

In the second half the Flyers did nothing to take Baylor out of is offensive comfort zone. It was only a matter of time before the Flyer 3s stopped falling and a turnover here and there allowed Baylor back in the game. Archie needed to do something to disrupt the comfort zone of Baylor and give the Flyer offense a different look.

In the second half Archie should have countered Baylor's effectiveness by going big. Rather than going with Pollard as the substitute for Oliver, I think he should have played two of Kav's, Scott, Robinson and Gav's. The two bigs could have boxed out the Baylor bigs on the offensive end and set the picks to allow the pentration of Pierre and the guards.


Of course with all that said, one more two pointer by the Flyers at the end of the game would have given the Flyers a victory. I just think that even if the Flyers had won it would have been easier if they had done different adjustments in the second half.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:38 AM
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My only gripe: Sibert is a stud and needs to play more than 32 minutes in a game of this magnitude.

With only 1 foul and a boatload of tv and team timeouts, there's no reason he can't give us 38 minutes. None.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:47 AM
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I am not posting to say that "the refs beat us", but did anyone else think that there was a missed goal tending call in the first half on a breakaway layup? This is when 2 Flyers wound up on the ground under the hoop and Baylor countered with a transition 3 ptr. Essentially a 5 point swing. I rewound it twice to watch it in slo-mo and it looked to me like the ball hit the backboard and was over the hoop when the Baylor player "blocked" it. Just wondering if my DVR was deceiving me.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
Tomorrow's game is actually very important. We will find out the mental makeup of our guys. Let's see how they respond to such a crushing defeat. Do they come out angry and take it out on Cal or fold like a cheap suit and head back it Dayton with their tails between their legs?
I think we come out hungry, but do the legs have enough life? Hope so.

If someone offered me two out of three wins against GT on the road, and Gonzag (Daytona stole their "a"), and Baylor on national tv in Maui, I would take it. That said, we need a victory against the Orange to seal the deal.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:04 AM
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Baylor was a way more athletic team than the Zags, that much was evident from the very beginning. They were longer and tougher than us inside, it just took them 35 minutes to be able to exploit their strength. In the end, we had 2 good shots to win it, Sanford had made 3 or 4 of those floaters near/in the lane, and Oliver's follow had just SLIGHTLY too much weight and carried off the end of the backboard.

As has been said several times, we need to come out and beat Cal and not fret too much about this loss. Baylor will be top 3 in the Big 12, and will make the tournament.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:11 AM
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Yes, it sucks that we lost by a point in the final minutes. But I have to say that, for the first time in many years, as I watched us play through this whole game, it looked like we belonged in a game of this magnitude against a top 25 program. We were not playing above our heads. I think this team is very good and they generally are well coached. I think we make noise this year.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:13 AM
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What ailed UD in the last 2 minutes of the game with Baylor was the same problem they had the last 4 minutes of the first half with Baylor and the 1st half with Gonzaga. The players missed point blank shots (3 foot and closer shots). UD needs to finish STRONG at the rim. When you finish soft, like they did in the games, there is rarely a foul called. When you finish strong, defensive contact is more likely to be called for a foul. Multiple times Kavs had an opportunity to go up and dunk but he decided to go up soft, kiss the ball off the backboard, however there was one problem, the defender was there to swat it away. He goes up strong and the defender would have to foul him in order to block the ball. I am disappointed with this loss. It was UD's to win and they failed. Learn from the mistakes and missed opportunities, get better, and be prepared to play strong the remaining OOC, then dominate the A10 with what you have learned playing these top 20 teams!
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:14 AM
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People criticize for not putting Oliver back in earlier with 4 fouls. They only think offense. A guy with four fouls is a sitting duck. Many guys will play very soft D when they have four fouls and how does that help us? Oliver had to guard some great athletes who were in over drive in the second half.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:28 AM
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Okay ChrisR, thank you. But, I don't suffer from thinking UD is Wisconsin, or that anybody is Wisconsin when it comes said style of play. I love UD, and I think there is a chance we might have a good season; but in no way is it obvious that UD can beat any top 25 team, or any NCAA Tourney Caliber team, by double digits while scoring in the mid sixties. Not going to happen.

I hope we finish in the top four teams of A-10, but I wouldn't hold my breath by any means. I think this might still only be middle of the pack A-10 squad, and yes I squarely blame this loss on Coaching.

It is amazing the number of folks in this fan-base that treat six figure coaches like they are pro-bono volunteers. It will be like this, unless the program shows the ability to post up and make an entrance pass, at the right time and on the correct angle, then the up and down, get down early, and blow a big lead, style of "Gregory Ball" will continue to haunt UD and prevent us making a run at the top of A-10.

I loved the Gonzaga win, but UD is not better than Gonzaga, and Georgia Tech is just not that good right now, and we needed a steal and last second shot to beat alphabet soup. I would say that tonight's Cal game is a crucial crux to the season.

Last edited by Beatty Town Coach; 11-27-2013 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:37 AM
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Two other factors contributed last night.

1) Fatigue. UD played a lot of players, but they had a hard, hard fought victory the night before. Baylor is very big and strong. They had an easier less physical opponent the night before. This is not the 1950s. the game is much more physical today, so the 40 minute players fatigue badly at the end of games.

2) Baylor woke up. As I understand, they were sleep walking during the first half of the Chaminade game. In the second half of the send half (last 8-10 minutes, they became much more intense. Their defense which look like Swiss chees before tightened. Dayton was not getting the easy looks they had during the first 30 minutes. And suddenly they began to pound the board harder (especially after getting first Kav then Scott in foul trouble).

Tough, tough loss. Let's see what kind of legs and mental toughness they have tonight. Beating Cal will be very important for the resume in March. The previous three games helped the resumes, and a Cal win would be big.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:40 AM
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UD also needs to learn how to close out on three point shooters. Those last two they hit we're uncontested.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
. . . I'll go with the great Al McGuire: It's 95% the horses you got, and 5% coaching.

I love our team, but Baylor had the better athletes. There is a reason they have the longest winning streak in division I. . .
Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Agree at NBA level, college is all about the coaching. Brad Stevens did not have top 25 talent either year he made the NCAA finals. Overall, Archie making great strides. Moreover, I would take our team overall versus Baylor's -- I am impressed with Archie's recruiting and believe we have more talent.

To my knowledge, Al McGuire never coached in the NBA. His was commenting about the college game. Brad Stevens is now an NBA coach (with 0 national titles to Al McGuire's 1).

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Old 11-27-2013, 11:41 AM
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I thought we flat out stopped attacking. I want to watch this before I take a full stand on it, but it seems our offense in general is much more aggressive with Price on the floor than with Scoochie. Either way, We looked good and had them where we wanted them when we were going after them. The second we started playing the slow down crap, we were done. This same issue has plagued us for years.

When you have an opponent on the ropes, why change your play mode? Irrational.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I think we come out hungry, but do the legs have enough life? Hope so.

If someone offered me two out of three wins against GT on the road, and Gonzag (Daytona stole their "a"), and Baylor on national tv in Maui, I would take it. That said, we need a victory against the Orange to seal the deal.

A victory against the Orange would have been nice...
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You and I must have been watching two different games. We simply rebound the ball on the defensive end, and we win by double digits. We were up by double digits with 10-12 minutes left. Baylor couldnt stop us from scoring all night. We hit a trey with 1 second on the shot clock wrapped around an inbounds pass layup with 1 second on the shot clock. DMo is shooting out of his mind. Sibert is shooting out of his mind. Vee has the floater going. Even Scoochie got in on the act. Price drove down broadway for a huge layup late. Offensively we were good to go.

We simply prevent Baylor from getting two shots at the basket every other trip down the floor and this one is on ice with 3 minutes left. The game was in the 60s because that was the pace of the game. I read nothing further into it than that. I thought our offense tonight was as good if not better than against Gonzaga and we scored in the 80+ vs Gonzaga.

...until the final 7:25 of the game, that is. Other than DMO's two last second (shot clock) bail out shots, we scored two points in the final seven minutes and twenty-five seconds. Only DMO and Sibert scored in the final 7:25. We were up by double digits with 7:25 left. Dribbling around mid-court and the perimeter until the shot clock is about to expire tends to do that...
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
A victory against the Orange would have been nice...
I'm trying my best to find a picture of an Orange Bear.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
My only gripe: Sibert is a stud and needs to play more than 32 minutes in a game of this magnitude.

With only 1 foul and a boatload of tv and team timeouts, there's no reason he can't give us 38 minutes. None.
Reason: 3 games in 3 days. Same reason 11 guys have seen the floor in each of the first 2 Maui games. Play Sibert 38 minutes last night and you might as well sit him down entirely against Cal (or 'Cuse, if we assume the extra 6 minutes translates to a win last night).

I'm very happy with the personnel management so far during this tough 3-day stretch. Remember, tired legs can have effects further down the road as we've seen in the past after returning to the mainland from Paradise.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:24 PM
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Check out the box scores of the other teams in this tournament...their players have no problem putting in 30+ minutes. Cal had 4 players go >32 yesterday.

We'll have to see how it affect the others...if at all. My guess is that it won't. Most 22 year old athletes can take it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by redbengal View Post
Reason: 3 games in 3 days. Same reason 11 guys have seen the floor in each of the first 2 Maui games. Play Sibert 38 minutes last night and you might as well sit him down entirely against Cal (or 'Cuse, if we assume the extra 6 minutes translates to a win last night).

I'm very happy with the personnel management so far during this tough 3-day stretch. Remember, tired legs can have effects further down the road as we've seen in the past after returning to the mainland from Paradise.
I worry about winning last night first. Sibert goes in 2-3 minutes earlier during crunch time and I think we score more than 7 points in 7 final minutes. Many on the sideline including myself were pleading for Archie to put Sibert in -- 2 -3 minutes more I don't think impacts him for Syracuse today :-)

Last edited by ruechalgrin; 11-27-2013 at 12:29 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Who drew up that inbounds play with 1 second on the shot clock? Jackie Moon?

This game was lost on the glass. Period. Didnt matter who was in there, we could not rebound. We scored more than enough points to win this one comfortably by double digits. We tried everyone -- nobody could rebound. Ben Wallace was unavailable tonight for the Flyers.

Archie cant rebound for them.

We let Baylor hit a trey with a minute to go. Wide open shot. Cant happen.
Gave up a layup with under 20 seconds left on an offensive rebound. Cant happen.

The problem was on the defensive end. We had no answer for Baylor in the last 12 minutes. They scored on pretty much every trip down the floor in some fashion. Archie tried everything. We just didnt have the muscle or height. Austin and Jefferson were not good matchups for us inside in the second half -- especially after Austin decided to actually start playing.

Is what it is. I think our deficiencies tonight can be improved. Our defense is getting better. We continue to score. Sibert is really stepping up and making tough shots. Khari is becoming the glue.

We have holes, but, I believe if we can beat Cal tomorrow, we'll bring a lot of confidence home.
and we have a 6-11 280 lb plug coming next year plus any other big men Archie recruits. Archie is putting it all together. We are great this year and will be better next year.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:58 PM
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Our two centers - Kavs and Scott -- grabbed a grand total of 2 rebounds in 35 combined minutes.

Game. Set. Match.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:41 PM
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A friend of mine posted two pictures of Devin Oliver being grabbed and wrestled. The first had a Baylor player pulling DMOs jersey away from him. The second had DMO pinned. He claimed there was no foul on either play. The pics look more like NFL than NCAA basketball. So Baylor got away with some rough, rough play in the second half. So much for the new whistle rules.

Often centers don't get rebounds if they are negating the other teams centers. However, their bigs got some crucial offensive rebounds.

And Baylor hit two open 3s in the last two minutes after being quiet all day. So, Baylor had the advantage in the post, but their were so breakdowns at the end all over.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
A friend of mine posted two pictures of Devin Oliver being grabbed and wrestled. The first had a Baylor player pulling DMOs jersey away from him. The second had DMO pinned. He claimed there was no foul on either play. The pics look more like NFL than NCAA basketball. So Baylor got away with some rough, rough play in the second half. So much for the new whistle rules.

...and yet DMO was the one who was forced to sit with four fouls during crucial minutes in the second half.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Check out the box scores of the other teams in this tournament...their players have no problem putting in 30+ minutes. Cal had 4 players go >32 yesterday.

We'll have to see how it affect the others...if at all. My guess is that it won't. Most 22 year old athletes can take it.
Sibert played 5 more minutes than any other Flyer last night. Next up was Pierre at 27 minutes and also only 1 foul. Of all the things Archie and staff might have second guessed themselves about this morning I just don't think this is one of them. But I could be wrong and Arch really looked at the box score and said, "WTF?! Jordan only played 32 minutes? Heads will roll!"
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Where was the thread after the Gonzaga game "That win was on Archie" 30 seconds after the game ended.
Maybe because it was 2:30 AM after that game and last night was only 11:30

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Old 11-27-2013, 04:54 PM
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Exclamation But only one factor in the loss.

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Our two centers - Kavs and Scott -- grabbed a grand total of 2 rebounds in 35 combined minutes.

Game. Set. Match.
Not so fast grasshopper. Clearly our wings have been, and will continue to be, our rebounding strength. It's easy to push on one bubble and point to that reason for a loss.

Eg, our season average for 3 point shooting coming into Maui was very respectable 40%. Good enough to put us in the top 50. In two very close games we shot 49% from 3pt, good enough for 2nd in the nation. Shooting 3's out of our mind gave us a close win and a close loss. Without that we likely lose both.

Fact is we barely beat Gonzaga because we did multiple things right, and barely lost to Baylor because we did multiple things not so right. Especially in the last few minutes.

No quarrel with the point that we are overmatched at the 5 spot. The only one thing we can really point to that could have avoided that loss was Oliver's last missed tip. As soon as I say that, a Baylor guy could have heaved a "Kwamaine Mitchell" in from half court and beat us anyway.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Yes, it sucks that we lost by a point in the final minutes. But I have to say that, for the first time in many years, as I watched us play through this whole game, it looked like we belonged in a game of this magnitude against a top 25 program. We were not playing above our heads. I think this team is very good and they generally are well coached. I think we make noise this year.
I've been as critical of Archie the past couple of seasons than anyone, but not once after last night's game did I think the loss was on the coach. I saw a team that's come a long way in just a few weeks and one that belongs on the court with top 25 teams. I was disappointed in the outcome, but I went to bed last night feeling really good about this team.

I'm as optimistic as I have been in a long time. I think this team will do some great things this season.
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