Another conference shake up coming? Texas and Oklahoma lobby SEC for entry. - Page 2

Medford · #**101** 07-29-2021, 09:58 AM

Its 9:35 am, and I haven't touched a sip of Bird Dog, Vodka Bombs or any other mind altering substance in the last 24+ hours. I type this with a clear mind....

College allegiances have drastically shifted in the past decade plus. The information age has transformed the way we work and play, while simultaneously the improvements in travel has made getting from point A to point B easier, and quicker than ever. So with that in mind, why do we need a conference to be a "be all" for all aspects collegiality? I don't follow college hockey, but I do know that conference wise, they are very different. B10 hockey is the only the resembles major conferences in other sports in that it has 6 B10 members plus Notre Dame. So for Big 10 hockey, less than half of the football playing institutions field hockey teams. Other collegiate hockey conferences are made up of teams spread across multiple conferences in either football or basketball. Miami (oh) for instance is in a conference with Denver, Omaha and North Dakota. UConn and Umass reside in a conference with Boston U, Boston College, Maine and Vermont.

Point being, in collegiate hockey, they have figured out the best way to group together schools with varying interest in other sports or academics but similar interest in hockey. Why can't the same be applied to football, baseball, basketball, tennis, track, etc... Taking it a step further, why can't the Big 10 Academic Alliance maintain what is in their best interest while Ohio State and Michigan seek out their best interest in football and perhaps Illinois and Purdue seek out something different in basketball?

Why tie part of your fortunes and future with teams that made sense 100 years ago. Are the goals of Minnesota football similar to what they were in the 30s and early 40s when they won national titles? While the goals at Michigan are likely similar to the goals at Ohio State, have the results from the Michigan football program in the last 50 years, been anywhere close to the results from the 50 years prior (that would be no)?

Connecting this to UD, Dayton and Penn State have very different goals and aspirations in collegiate football, but also very different goals and aspirations in college basketball. Same story at Gonzaga, yet UD and Gonzaga will never been in the same conference as Penn State the way things are currently constructed.

So Ohio State to the SEC will likely never happen, however Ohio State playing in the same conference as Alabama, Florida, Texas, OU & LSU makes a ton of sense.

Hyde Park Flyer · #**102** 07-29-2021, 10:51 AM

In today's context, conference groupings are critical in creating income from media rights. The conference networks are paying huge sums of money to their members. The more eyes on those networks drives up the dividends (money's paid to members). The networks need to provide as much original content as possible to collect the most eyes. Look at the Big 10 content throughout the year. Hockey and lacrosse have provided a lot of content. It's not just coincidental that the Big 10 is now a power conference in both. Building conference loyalty and stability adds to their viewership. While Big 10 hockey and lacrosse have teams that are not Big 10 members in other sports, the huge core is. Of course, the network and Notre Dame benefit from it being a hockey conference member. The same exists for Arizona State playing in the Big 10 last year. John's Hopkins in lacrosse and Notre Dame in hockey make the Big 10 a stronger conference in those sports as well. A stronger conference benefits all of the teams, and viewership rises. The bottom line is that the Big 10 is enriched by a strong conference identity.

UACFlyer · #**103** 07-29-2021, 11:59 AM

It seems possible that an outcome of the formation of one or more FB-driven mega-conferences is that the one non-FB premier basketball conference, the Big East, may be forced to do something it would rather not do.

For example, scheduling power-school /conference opponents may become even more difficult than it is now. And/or BE TV sponsors may make demands requiring scheduling significantly more conference games.

Possible bottom line: To continue playing at a level with the big boys the Big East may have no choice other than to become the mega-non-FB BB conference requiring expansion to 16 teams, for example....top teams/programs that are recognized as such.

There aren't many programs that fit that description. Dayton is one. If forced BE expansion involves only one or two schools we're probably out of luck. If expansion requires 4-5-6 schools we'd probably be in good shape.

This development could be dicey for us...good or bad.

Hyde Park Flyer · #**104** 07-29-2021, 12:10 PM

If the Big East picked up UD, SLU, and VCU, who would be the other 2 schools it would grab to get to 16? I can't figure it out off the cuff.

Runnin' Rebel · #**105** 07-29-2021, 12:16 PM

If Big East wants to go to a Mega conference... travel considerations go out the window, and they go after Gonzaga 1st?

Medford · #**106** 07-29-2021, 12:28 PM

WSU (no, not the one 15 min away from UD)

Charlotte or Davidson to expand out to North Carolina?
Richmond to get the rivalry/TV ratings?
UMass?

m21eagle45 · #**107** 07-29-2021, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer

If the Big East picked up UD, SLU, and VCU, who would be the other 2 schools it would grab to get to 16? I can't figure it out off the cuff.

I would target Wichita State. I think they would love to get back into a basketball centered conference and be happy to not have to worry about the future of the AAC. It would give SLU and Creighton another team close by to help with travel. I would even do this if I was the A10 to help try and stop UD, VCU, and SLU from leaving.

Hyde Park Flyer · #**108** 07-29-2021, 01:12 PM

The Gonzaga idea is interesting. I just read an article from 2019 about Big East expansion. They named the top 5 potential candidates: 5 - BYU, 4 - VCU, 3 - St. Louis, 2 - UD, and 1 - Gonzaga. If you replace BYU with WSU, that would be an outstanding basketball conference.

hawkoooo · #**109** 08-05-2021, 10:16 AM

At some point in this thread I believe there was some banter about UConn football. One or two people even tried to compare them to Memphis which made me about fall off my chair. To highlight just how far UConn football has fallen, feat your eyes on this line for the Fresno State game on 8/28. Bulldogs -27.5.

udisit19 · #**110** 08-05-2021, 05:14 PM

Big 10 isn't saying anything. Of course they will field calls from all the teams still stuck in the Big 12.

But the Big 10 must be trying to steal a couple of teams from the ACC, right? Why take two schools desperate to get off a sinking ship, when you can get two schools the other conferences actually want? And if the Big 10 can steal two teams from the ACC wouldn't that improve the Big 10 while weakening the ACC?

The Big 10 pays its member schools the most right now. A considerable amount more than ACC pays its member schools. I wouldn't be shocked if the Big 10 offered to Virginia and UNC. The Big 10 already got Maryland. I think the thought of joining Maryland could convince Virginia to move into the Big Ten. But UNC would be the real get. They have a stronger national brand. And North Carolina (specifically Raleigh) would be a new media market. Getting UNC also means removing them from their Duke conference rivalry. The timing might be right. Virginia has become a basketball power and Duke's Coach K is retiring. What better a moment for UNC to move on?

jack72 · #**111** 08-06-2021, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by udisit19

Big 10 isn't saying anything. Of course they will field calls from all the teams still stuck in the Big 12.

But the Big 10 must be trying to steal a couple of teams from the ACC, right? Why take two schools desperate to get off a sinking ship, when you can get two schools the other conferences actually want? And if the Big 10 can steal two teams from the ACC wouldn't that improve the Big 10 while weakening the ACC?

The Big 10 pays its member schools the most right now. A considerable amount more than ACC pays its member schools. I wouldn't be shocked if the Big 10 offered to Virginia and UNC. The Big 10 already got Maryland. I think the thought of joining Maryland could convince Virginia to move into the Big Ten. But UNC would be the real get. They have a stronger national brand. And North Carolina (specifically Raleigh) would be a new media market. Getting UNC also means removing them from their Duke conference rivalry. The timing might be right. Virginia has become a basketball power and Duke's Coach K is retiring. What better a moment for UNC to move on?

Maybe UVA, but no way is UNC going anywhere. If you thought the statue teardown protests were bad, the UNC to another league would overshadow it. They are going to give up playing Duke and NC State twice to play the likes of Northwestern and Nebraska?

For Big Tenners, who overrate their league, it may be about money, but for Duke and NC it is about tradition.

jack72 · #**112** 08-15-2021, 06:22 PM

Here we go with talk of an alliance of ACC, PAC and B10.

https://es.pn/3fZcea8
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UD62 · #**113** 09-02-2021, 03:59 PM

Big 12 after three AAC schools, UCF, UC, and Houston. Things could get interesting. Will we be happy in the A-10 or will we look for opportunities?

Medford · #**114** 09-02-2021, 04:47 PM

If the AAC lost UCF, UC & Houston (BYU is the rumored 4th school) I'm not quite sure what would be so appealing about the AAC to UD or anyone in the A10. You would have Memphis, Witchita St and Temple as traditionally strong programs and not much else. Plus you have to figure that at least Memphis is in the conversation and trying to angle their way into the b12 as well (perhaps at the expense of Houston, but that doesn't really change the dynamics).

How do the other teams in the AAC respond? Do they dip into CUSA? If so, whom? Marshall, western Kentucky? What about the Mountain West, do they raid some of the remaining AAC teams? Does the MAC keep chugging along, or at some point does it all get to be too much? who do each of these conferences handle a potential ACC, B10, P12 scheduling alliance that severally cuts down the buy games these conferences traditionally pay to the MAC, CUSA and ACC programs?

Seems like UD has 3 options.

1) hope the Big East decides to expand to 12-16 teams and UD is one of the invitees
2) form a new conference that is basketball centric and focuses on like minded, non Big East teams, possibly expanding coast to coast in some formation. Wichita St, St Louis, VCU, St Mary's, Gonzaga, etc....
3) keep chugging along in the A10 and possibly add a team to the mix, like Wichita State.

#3 seems like the most likely, by far option as well as the simplest. The AAC always appealed to me but only if you knew for certain that it wasn't going to lose key members. That always seemed unlikely over the long haul, but it appears that the process is speeding up quicker than I could have imagined just 3 years ago.

ud2 · #**115** 09-02-2021, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by UD62

Big 12 after three AAC schools, UCF, UC, and Houston. Things could get interesting. Will we be happy in the A-10 or will we look for opportunities?

UC will be out the door of the AAC before the ink is dry on their signed agreement to join the Big 12.

UC has been absolutely desperate for years to join the Big 12 or ACC, and they have been very public about their feelings.

ud2 · #**116** 09-02-2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Medford

If the AAC lost UCF, UC & Houston (BYU is the rumored 4th school) I'm not quite sure what would be so appealing about the AAC to UD or anyone in the A10.

If the AAC loses just UC, Houston, and UCF, the new AAC will be maybe slightly stronger than the A10, but I am not sure all of the uncertainty surrounding the new AAC would be worth it in terms of UD making the switch.

New AAC good/decent teams: Memphis, Temple, Wichita State
New AAC just ok teams: SMU, Tulsa, South Florida

A10 good teams: Dayton, Davidson, VCU, maybe SLU, maybe RI, maybe Richmond

UD62 · #**117** 09-02-2021, 06:01 PM

AAC would be in a bind for football, not sure they would want any more basketball only schools. As things stand right now, assuming the three schools leave, I think standing pat has advantages. I'm sure the admin has all sorts of possibilities researched.

Buckleyma · #**118** 09-02-2021, 06:39 PM

I think that that University of Dayton would fit nicely into the AAC conference.
The University of Dayton was founded in 1850, has a total enrollment of 11,677 and has an endowment of $609.7 million.
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Buckleyma · #**119** 09-02-2021, 06:57 PM

I think that that University of Dayton would fit nicely into the AAC conference.
The University of Dayton was founded in 1850, has a total enrollment of 11,677 and has an endowment of $609.7 million.
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ud2 · #**120** 09-02-2021, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Buckleyma

I think that that University of Dayton would fit nicely into the AAC conference.
The University of Dayton was founded in 1850, has a total enrollment of 11,677 and has an endowment of $609.7 million.
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As Medford mentioned, Memphis will be looking for a way out if UC, Houston, and UCF leave, I am sure Memphis was already looking for a way out even with those 3.

SMU, USF, and Tulsa will also be looking for a way out.

Wichita State will probably want out also. Temple's basketball program would also be unhappy.

ECU and Tulane, the only other 2 teams, might even want out.

SMU, USF, Tulsa, ECU, Temple, Memphis and Tulane are probably all stuck though. Wichita could move elsewhere.

Too much uncertainty, not a good move at this point IMO. I previously thought moving to the AAC was a good move, but that was only if nobody left.

ud2 · #**121** 09-03-2021, 09:15 AM

I have not really paid close attention to this, but the TV stations in Cincinnati sort of seem to be talking about UC to the Big 12 like it is already a done deal, and the actual formal announcement is just a mere formality.

hawkoooo · #**122** 09-03-2021, 09:22 AM

The American without UConn is still better than the A10.

The American without UConn, UCF, Houston and Cincinnati? I'm not so sure about that. We might be better off going after Wichita State with the promise of a more stable basketball-centric environment.

ud2 · #**123** 09-03-2021, 09:53 AM

AAC commissioner Mike Aresco sounds depressed/stressed out/sounds like he has no idea what is happening. A short listen, only 1 minute and 46 seconds long.

https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=32134203

hawkoooo · #**124** 09-03-2021, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

AAC commissioner Mike Aresco sounds depressed/stressed out/sounds like he has no idea what is happening. A short listen, only 1 minute and 46 seconds long.

https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=32134203

Funny how he starts by acting defensive about the lies of ESPN and the rest of the media and then at :55 proceeds to tell a big fat lie himself!

"We're trying to strengthen and fortify our conference in any way we can . . . "

The American's last addition was a school that doesn't even play football. The last football team they added was in 2015. At the end of the video he even has the gall to call the conference STABLE. If every single day there is a new rumor about 3-5 of your members getting poached you are the opposite of stable sir.

ud2 · #**125** 09-03-2021, 10:23 AM

https://mobile.twitter.com/Brett_McM...70030366347267:

Brett McMurphy:

1h
BYU, Cincinnati, Houston & UCF are Big 12’s expansion choices & league could extend invites this month, sources told
@ActionNetworkHQ
. BYU could join next season, a year or so before others. Also, all 4 could join before OU/Texas leave for SEC, source said

UD62 · #**126** 09-03-2021, 10:41 AM

While getting the four new teams will refill the cupboard, it doesn't do a lot on the level of competition scale.
There will be a gap between the B12 and the rest of the power five. Best alternative available but the B12 sure is taking a hit. It is an opportunity for the four schools however.

ud2 · #**127** 09-03-2021, 10:51 AM

Not sure what happened to Boise State, tv market might be too small, strong football team though, basketball team is fairly good too. Not too far from BYU.

ud2 · #**128** 09-03-2021, 06:20 PM

Football scheduling will be easier for BYU since they will no longer be an independent.

WCC down to 9 teams after BYU leaves, I wonder if they might be interested in Wichita State.

Seems like Wichita is far from both the WCC and A10 schools.

Buckleyma · #**129** 09-03-2021, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

https://mobile.twitter.com/Brett_McM...70030366347267:

Brett McMurphy:

1h
BYU, Cincinnati, Houston & UCF are Big 12’s expansion choices & league could extend invites this month, sources told
@ActionNetworkHQ
. BYU could join next season, a year or so before others. Also, all 4 could join before OU/Texas leave for SEC, source said

Instagram is reporting this switch of four teams as a possibility. I don’t know why but I trust Instagram more than Twitter.
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ud2 · #**130** 09-04-2021, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Buckleyma

Instagram is reporting this switch of four teams as a possibility. I don’t know why but I trust Instagram more than Twitter.
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Seems like much more than a possibility IMO, by all appearances this is a done deal.

ESPN is reporting that UC, UCF, BYU, and Houston will submit their Big 12 membership applications next week and could be approved for membership as early as September 10, less than a week from now.

ud2 · #**131** 09-04-2021, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

Funny how he starts by acting defensive about the lies of ESPN and the rest of the media and then at :55 proceeds to tell a big fat lie himself!

"We're trying to strengthen and fortify our conference in any way we can . . . "

The American's last addition was a school that doesn't even play football. The last football team they added was in 2015. At the end of the video he even has the gall to call the conference STABLE. If every single day there is a new rumor about 3-5 of your members getting poached you are the opposite of stable sir.

There wasn't anything he could do to stop this, there was nobody left to poach.

Maybe he approached BYU, and they turned him down.

He/the AAC did go after Boise State twice apparently, it didn't work out.

I don’t see anybody else worth adding.

https://kidotalkradio.com/how-boise-...the-aac-again/

ud2 · #**132** 09-04-2021, 01:52 AM

Sounds like BYU was never interested in joining the AAC. Aresco did all he could for the AAC, the AAC was just a victim of poaching.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46584098...ars-want-to-be

hawkoooo · #**133** 09-04-2021, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

There wasn't anything he could do to stop this, there was nobody left to poach.

Maybe he approached BYU, and they turned him down.

He/the AAC did go after Boise State twice apparently, it didn't work out.

I don’t see anybody else worth adding.

https://kidotalkradio.com/how-boise-...the-aac-again/

Boise State, San Diego State (these additions would entice BYU), App. St., Army, Coastal, Louisiana, Marshall. I could go on and on. Before you say the first two are crazy this literally already happened once. You could easily have a Western division of the AAC. I have explained this in depth many times in other threads. You think Boise wouldn't leave the Mountain West? They just got left out of realignment AGAIN!

And you're missing the point entirely. To fortify you have to add teams. So that when you are poached you aren't scrambling and giving embarrassing interviews like that. You just keep chugging along. They haven't added a football school in 6 years, despite many programs around them attaining high levels of repeatable success in their backyards and out West. You have to be forward thinking and creative. Add more basketball teams to become truly dominant in that sport. Imagine Don Draper running the AAC. He would've made the moves I'm talking about years ago. I know that sounds silly referring to a TV character but if you've seen the show and understand the character you know what I mean.

UD62 · #**134** 09-04-2021, 11:45 AM

I doubt that adding a bunch of so called mid-major basketball teams, save the Zags, would make the AAC anything close to dominate.
Should that occur however, I would think, Gonzaga and UD would be amoung the first considered. Whether the Flyers would consider such a move in an open question.

hawkoooo · #**135** 09-04-2021, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by UD62

I doubt that adding a bunch of so called mid-major basketball teams, save the Zags, would make the AAC anything close to dominate.
Should that occur however, I would think, Gonzaga and UD would be amoung the first considered. Whether the Flyers would consider such a move in an open question.

Yes but now it is too late. Thank you for hammering my point home even harder. UD/VCU/Gonzaga, etc. why would any of them join the AAC now?

UD62 · #**136** 09-04-2021, 01:13 PM

[QUOTE=hawkoooo;668063]Yes but now it is too late. Thank you for hammering my point home even harder. UD/VCU/Gonzaga, etc. why would any of them join the AAC now?[/QUOTE

I agree, I don't think we would go, but I've been wrong before

ud2 · #**137** 09-04-2021, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

Boise State, San Diego State (these additions would entice BYU), App. St., Army, Coastal, Louisiana, Marshall. I could go on and on. Before you say the first two are crazy this literally already happened once. You could easily have a Western division of the AAC. I have explained this in depth many times in other threads. You think Boise wouldn't leave the Mountain West? They just got left out of realignment AGAIN!

And you're missing the point entirely. To fortify you have to add teams. So that when you are poached you aren't scrambling and giving embarrassing interviews like that. You just keep chugging along. They haven't added a football school in 6 years, despite many programs around them attaining high levels of repeatable success in their backyards and out West. You have to be forward thinking and creative. Add more basketball teams to become truly dominant in that sport. Imagine Don Draper running the AAC. He would've made the moves I'm talking about years ago. I know that sounds silly referring to a TV character but if you've seen the show and understand the character you know what I mean.

Agree to disagree, none of that was going to entice BYU IMO.

The AAC needed to add some more new, good football schools to entice BYU, none existed imo other than Boise State, which did not work out.

Aresco allegedly tried to poach some of the non-University of Texas and non-University of Oklahoma Big 12 schools, none apparently were interested. The B12 commish complained about that attempted poaching.

BYU and the MW I guess were not getting along, that was why BYU left the MW and went independent in football only. I looked at the BYU football schedule this year, it is arguably better now as an independent than it would be had BYU joined the AAC.

There was nothing Aresco could do, the AAC was doomed once Texas and Oklahoma joined the SEC.

ud2 · #**138** 09-04-2021, 01:39 PM

And it can be argued that BYU was better off being an independent in football than being in the MW, there are no good MW football schools other than Boise State.

It was going to take a clear upgrade, which the B12 probably is, in order to entice BYU. At the very least, BYU joining the B12 vs. BYU staying independent is probably a wash, and football scheduling for BYU will be much easier now.

BYU football schedule this year:

At Arizona
Home Utah
Home Arizona State
Home South Florida
At Utah State
Home Boise State
At Baylor
At Washington State
Home Virginia
Home Idaho State
At Georgia Southern
At Southern Cal

Hyde Park Flyer · #**139** 09-04-2021, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

And it can be argued that BYU was better off being an independent in football than being in the MW, there are no good MW football schools other than Boise State.

It was going to take a clear upgrade, which the B12 probably is, in order to entice BYU. At the very least, BYU joining the B12 vs. BYU staying independent is probably a wash, and football scheduling for BYU will be much easier now.

BYU football schedule this year:

At Arizona
Home Utah
Home Arizona State
Home South Florida
At Utah State
Home Boise State
At Baylor
At Washington State
Home Virginia
Home Idaho State
At Georgia Southern
At Southern Cal

BYU goes Independent, plays a much tougher schedule, AND still gets to play the only other good conference foe. Wow.

Bill McPeek · #**140** 09-05-2021, 10:11 AM

As a NJ resident and taxpayer I can't say I'm happy about how my tax dollars are being spent down at "The Banks of the Old Raritan." All that glitters is not gold. A somewhat lengthy read but worth the time. I wonder how many other schools are in the same boat?

https://www.njherald.com/in-depth/ne...en/8047865002/

ud2 · #**141** 09-05-2021, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bill McPeek

As a NJ resident and taxpayer I can't say I'm happy about how my tax dollars are being spent down at "The Banks of the Old Raritan." All that glitters is not gold. A somewhat lengthy read but worth the time. I wonder how many other schools are in the same boat?

https://www.njherald.com/in-depth/ne...en/8047865002/

I did not read your link, but at the time, I read that it was either Maryland or Rutgers or both whose athletic departments were heavily in debt, and the Big Ten invitation was joyously accepted as a sort of bailout in the form of getting their share of league revenue, maybe things didn't work out that way.

hawkoooo · #**142** 09-07-2021, 09:38 AM

I still think this could impact UD and the A10.

The American will obviously need to backfill for football but will likely want to enhance basketball as well for two reasons:

1. They lost UConn, Cinci, and Houston. All valuable basketball pieces.

2. The football additions they make may not have the most quality basketball programs so they could be taking an even further step back by adding those schools for all sports.

Will they be able to rebuild with enough quality to entice A10 schools like Dayton and VCU? Who would you add right now if you were the AAC?

Flyer68 · #**143** 09-07-2021, 10:32 AM

As a NJ resident, I have no connection with Rutgers except for driving through the campus many times over 50 years when in New Brunswick.

I have always felt Rutgers is an odd situation. It's there but the NJ college footgall fan does not get behind it. Years ago Miami was playing at Rutgers and there were tickets available. No one wanted to go although the #1 team in the nation was playing less than one hour away.

There is a sizable group within the Rutgers educational staff that has always wanted Rutgers to de-emphasize football down to a lesser conference. During Sciano's first tenure there were always complaints about he being the highest paid public official in NJ, his real estate perks and other things. Now with his return, Rutgers at Sciano's request has spent millions on football and is in heavy debt relying on taxpayer money. But it still looks like Rutgers will struggle to get 6 wins to make it bowl eligible.

I thought that the purpose of bringing Rutgers into the Big 10 was to give the Big 10 a NYC metro presence. Great for the Big 10. Much like I thought Fordham was to give the A10 a NYC presence. However, in doing so, the Big 10 and for quite a while only gives Rutgers the smallest piece of Big 10 money pie requiring Rutgers to spend its own and taxpayer money.

sheg · #**144** 09-08-2021, 11:37 AM

The biggest draws (for Dayton) to go to the AAC were Cincinnati, UConn, Memphis, Houston, and Temple. Wichita State was in that mix while Gregg Marshall still coached there. Three of the five are (probably) out and the other two must certainly be looking although their options are slim. Why in the hell would Dayton be interested in moving now? To join SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, ECU, and USF?

Marysville Flyer · #**145** 09-08-2021, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by sheg

The biggest draws (for Dayton) to go to the AAC were Cincinnati, UConn, Memphis, Houston, and Temple. Wichita State was in that mix while Gregg Marshall still coached there. Three of the five are (probably) out and the other two must certainly be looking although their options are slim. Why in the hell would Dayton be interested in moving now? To join SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, ECU, and USF?

People used to post all the time that we were joined at the hip with x when all this realignment first started and we see how that worked out. I do think now it is reasonable to evaluate a UD AAC affiliation to occur with more than just UD in the mix. If some combination of UD, VCU, SLU, URI and others moved together the move would make much more sense.
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Bucketnight · #**146** 09-08-2021, 02:30 PM

I am proposing that the Big East and A10 form an alliance. Every year the bottom team in the Big East gets relegated and the regular season winner from the A10 gets promoted into the Big East. Boom. Done. We're in the Big East and never look back. Who do I need to call to make it happen?

Runnin' Rebel · #**147** 09-08-2021, 03:14 PM

I'm thinking Neil should channel his inner "Andy Dufresne"... and send a daily communication to the Big East commissioner regarding a new basketball super conference for non-D1 football schools.

Flyerferd · #**148** 09-08-2021, 03:14 PM

I was all in on the AAC as long as Cincy, Memphis, etc. were there. Now, I am not on board. By the way, television wise, the TV deals are just about as good. Remember, we would not get the football television money. I also feel like our university will take a look at the remaining programs in the American, and say, they definitely are not peer institutions.
Wichita State joining the Atlantic 10 could make things really interesting. To sweeten the deal for Wichita State, and to assist everybody on travel for non-revenue generating sports, three pods of five teams Could be developed.
South coast: Davidson, George Mason, George Washington, Richmond, VCU.
North coast: fordham, LaSalle, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Saint Joseph
Western:
Dayton, Duquesne, Saint Bonaventure, St. Louis, Wichita State.
In terms of basketball specifically, you will have to eventually have a 20 game conference schedule like everybody else anyway, so, eight games will be against your fellow pod, you get everybody else home and home, and then the last two games would be against The same ranked team in the other two pods. Example, if Dayton was second in our pod, we would then play the second-place team in the other two pods. This way, those who are on the bubble, have a shot at higher net rankings. Covid has taught us travel plans can change/be made quickly, so, the excuse of, well we need time to prepare to get everything together, would not be valid.
Of course, if the Big East expands to 16 teams, I would much rather do that!
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springborofan · #**149** 09-08-2021, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Flyerferd

I was all in on the AAC as long as Cincy, Memphis, etc. were there. Now, I am not on board. By the way, television wise, the TV deals are just about as good. Remember, we would not get the football television money. I also feel like our university will take a look at the remaining programs in the American, and say, they definitely are not peer institutions.
Wichita State joining the Atlantic 10 could make things really interesting. To sweeten the deal for Wichita State, and to assist everybody on travel for non-revenue generating sports, three pods of five teams Could be developed.
South coast: Davidson, George Mason, George Washington, Richmond, VCU.
North coast: fordham, LaSalle, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Saint Joseph
Western:
Dayton, Duquesne, Saint Bonaventure, St. Louis, Wichita State.
In terms of basketball specifically, you will have to eventually have a 20 game conference schedule like everybody else anyway, so, eight games will be against your fellow pod, you get everybody else home and home, and then the last two games would be against The same ranked team in the other two pods. Example, if Dayton was second in our pod, we would then play the second-place team in the other two pods. This way, those who are on the bubble, have a shot at higher net rankings. Covid has taught us travel plans can change/be made quickly, so, the excuse of, well we need time to prepare to get everything together, would not be valid.
Of course, if the Big East expands to 16 teams, I would much rather do that!
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I like the thought process! If we’re going to make some changes I’d suggest a couple more changes: Kick out Fordham, move St. Bona to the north division and add Loyola Chicago (or Belmont) to the West division.

sheg · #**150** 09-08-2021, 05:12 PM

I thought at one time that a hybrid A10 AAC merge could have been wildly successful.

AAC East
UConn*
Temple*
Cincinnati*
UMass
URI
Dayton
VCU
ECU* (yuck, but they have to go somewhere)
Bona or Duquesne

AAC West
Tulane*
Tulsa*
Wichita State
SMU*
Houston*
Memphis*
USF*
UCF*
Saint Louis

*football schools

Play 16 conference games plus 2 or 4 crossover games. These conferences could hold for the Olympic sports too. The eleven football schools plus Navy form a 12 team football only conference. UMass could have had a scheduling arrangement for football, with a path to potential future full football membership.

I would sign on the dotted line for that setup in a minute if it had any stability. Of course it was easy to see that it wouldn't be stable, making the whole idea a non-starter.

NJFlyr71 · #**151** 09-09-2021, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bill McPeek

As a NJ resident and taxpayer I can't say I'm happy about how my tax dollars are being spent down at "The Banks of the Old Raritan." All that glitters is not gold. A somewhat lengthy read but worth the time. I wonder how many other schools are in the same boat?

https://www.njherald.com/in-depth/ne...en/8047865002/

My time growing up in NJ I remember when Rutgers was an independent. They played Princeton in the annual rivalry game. They also played the likes of Lehigh in PA among others. Although a 'state' university, the standards to get into that place was pretty high. I knew smart people (well at least smarter than I!

) who didn't get in but put on the wait list if at all.

I also thought at the time the Rutgers people thought of themselves as a pseudo IVY League establishment. I believe it was sometime in the early 70's after many residents of NJ had been complaining for years that Rutgers established 'Livingston College' to let in more people that where not being accepted to the 'regular' Colleges.

There is a disconnect in NJ that is hard to explain. There is a strong and vocal group that believes too much is placed on athletics and then there is a vocal group who believed that Rutgers was (not could be mind you) an established force in some phases of their athletic prowess. Witness some success in BB and while in the BEast their FB program.

Getting accepted into the B10 was validation that they BELONGED.

Only it proved to be a mirage as seen by the performance in that conference.

For those of you who don't know, Rutgers and Princeton played what is claimed to be the very first FB game on a site in Piscataway NJ across the river from the campus. Years ago when a group of people wanted to establish a 'College Football Hall of Fame', it was proposed to be near that site.
Per Wikipedia: Rutgers donated land near its football stadium, office space, and administrative support. After years of collecting donations for the construction of the building with ground not having been broken and no plans to do so, the New Jersey Attorney General began an investigation of the finances of the Hall of Fame's foundation, the National Football Foundation.

Was it Jersey politics corrupting the situation? Don't know. But it never happened. But reading that article that you provided shows that as much as things change maybe nothing really does.

hawkoooo · #**152** 09-09-2021, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by sheg

AAC East

Temple*
UMass*
URI
VCU
ECU*
St. Bona
USF*
Richmond
Saint Joe's

AAC West

Tulane*
Tulsa*
Wichita State
SMU*
Memphis*
Murray State
Saint Louis
Belmont
Dayton

Plenty of independent football schools to backfill with: NMSU, Liberty, Army, and UConn.

Flyerferd · #**153** 09-10-2021, 10:35 AM

Big 12 invitations just sent to Houston, BYU, Cincinnati, and UCF. Memphis appears to be left holding the AAC bag at this point.
https://big12sports.com/news/2021/9/...i4xUdsKf4nPD7w
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ud2 · #**154** 09-10-2021, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Flyerferd

Big 12 invitations just sent to Houston, BYU, Cincinnati, and UCF. Memphis appears to be left holding the AAC bag at this point.
https://big12sports.com/news/2021/9/...i4xUdsKf4nPD7w
Posted via Mobile Device

Poor Memphis, poor SMU, poor Wichita State, poor Temple, sucks to be them, sucks to be left out and get left behind. This is a total gut punch for them, they are in a bad spot now.

Hobopotamus1 · #**155** 09-13-2021, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

Poor Memphis, poor SMU, poor Wichita State, poor Temple, sucks to be them, sucks to be left out and get left behind. This is a total gut punch for them, they are in a bad spot now.

Would it be possible that they all get absorbed into the A10?

Is that a crazy thought?

Or maybe they all go into a Big East megaconference, along with UD and the top A10 schools?

OSU Flyer · #**156** 09-23-2021, 12:02 PM

Sounds like Colorado State, Air Force and UAB could be headed to the AAC

UDEE79 · #**157** 09-23-2021, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bucketnight

I am proposing that the Big East and A10 form an alliance. Every year the bottom team in the Big East gets relegated and the regular season winner from the A10 gets promoted into the Big East. Boom. Done. We're in the Big East and never look back. Who do I need to call to make it happen?

The A10 could do this within itself. Bring in a few more teams. Get us to twenty then make two division call it A10 red and A10 blue. The good teams in A10 red and the bad teams in A10 Blue and relegate the top two A10 Blues and bottom 2 A10 Reds every year.

springborofan · #**158** 09-23-2021, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer

Sounds like Colorado State, Air Force and UAB could be headed to the AAC

I caught this paragraph in a recent Athletic article that I thought is interesting:

The Sun Belt has its eyes on additions as well, and Conference USA could see more movement, too. Many leaders across the Group of 5 continue to express a desire to simply redraw the G5 conference maps and create regional conferences for the sake of rivalries and travel costs, believing the difference in television money isn’t all that impactful. But those with a seat at a more valuable table don’t have much interest in helping those that don’t.

It would make sense for the remaining 4 conferences (beyond P5 + AAC) to consider a realignment to reduce costs. While the MAC is one of these conferences, I don’t think there would be any movement at all for it since it is geographically dense. It probably doesn’t make much sense for MWC either other than a team or two. But, I could see Conference USA and Sunbelt trying to make a East and West realignment.

udflyerfan · #**159** 09-23-2021, 05:09 PM

Wouldn’t it make allot of sense for a Big East …..East n West??

OSU Flyer · #**160** 09-23-2021, 09:05 PM

I wonder if Air Force is going in as a full member potentially or they try another basketball only school to pair with them

ud2 · #**161** 09-24-2021, 08:00 AM

Not sure the AAC is better than the MW now, Air Force and Colorado State might want to stay put.

Kansas City Flyer 99 · #**162** 09-24-2021, 11:26 AM

Lots of rumors out there today that Belmont is going to the MVC.

Possibly Murry St or Texas Arlington as well.

OSU Flyer · #**163** 09-24-2021, 12:51 PM

OVC could be on life support

Kansas City Flyer 99 · #**164** 09-24-2021, 01:52 PM

Jacksonville and Austin Peay are leaving in 2022 for the ASUN.

Murray State fans want to join the MVC and jump ship but it is not 100% yet.

The OVC is in HUGE trouble.

I think the MVC is considering UT Arlington for the Dallas market to go along with the Nashville market they just added.

The Valley fans are pushing for Murray St as #12. The might look to go to 14 teams if the teams/markets are right. They like to maintain a even private/public balance.

Could the Shockers ask to come back with the AAC in chaos??

It seems the Valley decided to get out there first and make the moves.

m21eagle45 · #**165** 09-24-2021, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kansas City Flyer 99

Jacksonville and Austin Peay are leaving in 2022 for the ASUN.

Murray State fans want to join the MVC and jump ship but it is not 100% yet.

The OVC is in HUGE trouble.

I think the MVC is considering UT Arlington for the Dallas market to go along with the Nashville market they just added.

The Valley fans are pushing for Murray St as #12. The might look to go to 14 teams if the teams/markets are right. They like to maintain a even private/public balance.

Could the Shockers ask to come back with the AAC in chaos??

It seems the Valley decided to get out there first and make the moves.

EKU also leaving the OVC in 22.

UD62 · #**166** 09-24-2021, 02:51 PM

A-10 not looking so bad afterall. Really don't have to do a thing. Others are scrambling, our members should sit tight and grab the popcorn. I guess there could be an addition(or two) but while anything is possible, I'm not looking for that anytime soon.

NJFlyr71 · #**167** 09-24-2021, 04:23 PM

Although I can see some interest in expressing a point of view (in some posts) that this conference or that conference should invite this team or that team to join (or leave), or in regards a huge move to get such and such conference merge with another conference, I think it is trying to make filet mignon out of hamburger.

I think there are a few moves that can make some sense (be it for geography, economic, or rivalry reasons) there are limited special cases for those kinds of changes. After that its' just shuffling the remaining card deck hoping for 4 aces to fall into your hands.

Businesses get caught up in the same frenzy/mentality in mergers and acquisitions. There are a few that are viable and make sense but when others attempt to replicate the competitions' moves those usually end up with a mismatch of cultures and too many moving parts to manage correctly.

ud2 · #**168** 09-24-2021, 04:56 PM

I thought Murray State did not want to leave because of their football team?

m21eagle45 · #**169** 09-24-2021, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

I thought Murray State did not want to leave because of their football team?

OVC has lost 3 of the best 5 teams this year. Murray needs to jump ship before they get stuck.

hawkoooo · #**170** 09-25-2021, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by UD62

A-10 not looking so bad afterall. Really don't have to do a thing. Others are scrambling, our members should sit tight and grab the popcorn. I guess there could be an addition(or two) but while anything is possible, I'm not looking for that anytime soon.

SMH. This is the type of thinking that kills. Belmont will be a great addition to the Valley. Murray State will make a great addition somewhere. Wichita State still sits in a valley of crappy football schools. Saint Louis and Dayton sit on their own islands. The A10 sits on their hands, the biggest island of all.

hawkoooo · #**171** 09-25-2021, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

OVC has lost 3 of the best 5 teams this year. Murray needs to jump ship before they get stuck.

MSU and WSU to go to 16. Pretty please Bernadette.

NCkevi · #**172** 09-25-2021, 08:20 PM

EKU and JSU are being sued by the OVC for refusing to pay the $1 million exit fee they both earlier voted for

ud2 · #**173** 09-26-2021, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

MSU and WSU to go to 16. Pretty please Bernadette.

Amen to Murray State, I'd add them to the A10 in a heartbeat, I am on the fence regarding Wichita, I might take Belmont or Vermont over Wichita.

m21eagle45 · #**174** 09-26-2021, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

Amen to Murray State, I'd add them to the A10 in a heartbeat, I am on the fence regarding Wichita, I might take Belmont or Vermont over Wichita.

Vermont? They wouldn't be a top half team in the A10. But I know, you love their realtimeRPI numbers.

bcross · #**175** 09-26-2021, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

I am on the fence regarding Wichita, I might take Belmont or Vermont over Wichita.

Do you actually believe the stuff you post?

ud2 · #**176** 09-26-2021, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Vermont? They wouldn't be a top half team in the A10. But I know, you love their realtimeRPI numbers.

Haha, I do love their realtimeRPI numbers, but I also love their Kenpom numbers too.

Since 2005(the last 17 years), they are Kenpom #136 or better 14 times.

ud2 · #**177** 09-26-2021, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Vermont? They wouldn't be a top half team in the A10. But I know, you love their realtimeRPI numbers.

Have you actually looked at their Kenpom numbers? Since 2005, only Dayton and VCU have had more more Kenpom #136 or better finishes.

ud2 · #**178** 09-26-2021, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by bcross

Do you actually believe the stuff you post?

Yes, of course, do you believe some of the junk you post?

What is so great about Wichita? Pre-Gregg Marshall they were pretty bad. What makes you so sure that they will continue to be good without him? They went from 1989 to 2005 with zero ncaat appearances. 17 years in a row. What is so great about that? They rode 1 good coach to almost all their recent success.

Wichita NCAA Tournament Appearances
1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021

m21eagle45 · #**179** 09-26-2021, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

Haha, I do love their realtimeRPI numbers, but I also love their Kenpom numbers too.

Since 2005(the last 17 years), they are Kenpom #136 or better 14 times.

And what is their NCAA tournament record since 2000? 2 wins and 7 loses. One of those wins in the First Four against another 16 seed. Beating up on a crappy conference and losing in the first round isn't proof they belong in the A10. Also, we have enough high school gyms in the league, we don't need another small time 3,200 seat arena in the A10. Wichita St. is 12-9 with 2 sweet 16's and a final 4 during that time. They have played in 2 leagues that are much better than the American East, but keep on using Kenpom and RealtimeRPI.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I would like to see how Wichita State does post Gregg Marshall, but there are many teams I would consider before Vermont. That move does not make any sense.

ud2 · #**180** 09-26-2021, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by NCkevi

EKU and JSU are being sued by the OVC for refusing to pay the $1 million exit fee they both earlier voted for

I hope the OVC wins, these votes and rules should mean something, a deal is a deal, no backing out later on and reneging, I hate flaky people that go back on their word. If they didn't want to have to pay the exit fee, then they never should have voted for it in the first place.

Chris R · #**181** 09-27-2021, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

Wichita NCAA Tournament Appearances
1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021

That's 16 appearances. Dayton has 18. Both had one Final Four appearance but Dayton's was in 1967.

UD has 3 NIT titles and 5 runner-ups. That's probably the biggest difference. But in 2021, does it really matter. Id still put UD's overall body of work ahead of Wichita, but I dont think its overly pronounced or overly relevant in modern times. If I were grading current respect in MBB, Id put it at about a draw or slightly in WSUs favor given their greater consistency in the last 10yrs.

Your question is valid: can they sustain it after Marshall's exit. I dont think anyone can say just yet. WSU certainly has the infrastructure and fan base in place to keep it going. I thought McDermott would flounder at Creighton as soon as his son Greg graduated and no longer carried that program on his back. McDermott was a washed-up coach that fizzled at Iowa State. But he's still kicking butt post-Greg and recruiting like a man possessed.

You just never know.

Kansas City Flyer 99 · #**182** 09-27-2021, 08:33 AM

Rumors make it sound like Murray State will be joining the Valley as team #12.

They are just finishing up details on the football side of it.

m21eagle45 · #**183** 09-27-2021, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kansas City Flyer 99

Rumors make it sound like Murray State will be joining the Valley as team #12.

They are just finishing up details on the football side of it.

Makes sense. The MVC and the MVFC are technically 2 different leagues. The MVFC is like the Pioneer in that it is the only sport sponsors football and no other sports. The MVFC use to be called the Gateway Conference.

ud2 · #**184** 09-27-2021, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kansas City Flyer 99

Rumors make it sound like Murray State will be joining the Valley as team #12.

They are just finishing up details on the football side of it.

IMO, while I would add to the A10 any of the 4 of Belmont, Murray State, Vermont, or Wichita State, there is no rush to add them, they aren't going anywhere, they have no better options, you can add them at anytime.

Belmont is also a concern as hc Rick Byrd is responsible for almost all their success. At least Murray State and Vermont have succeeded with multiple hc's.

I don't think Wichita State will leave the AAC.

I suppose Wichita State could be a BE target, but adding them to the A10 won't prevent that.

bcross · #**185** 09-27-2021, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

Yes, of course, do you believe some of the junk you post?

What is so great about Wichita? Pre-Gregg Marshall they were pretty bad. What makes you so sure that they will continue to be good without him? They went from 1989 to 2005 with zero ncaat appearances. 17 years in a row. What is so great about that? They rode 1 good coach to almost all their recent success.

Wichita NCAA Tournament Appearances
1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021

But what makes Belmont/Vermont a better option?

Bill McPeek · #**186** 09-27-2021, 03:06 PM

[QUOTE= I suppose Wichita State could be a BE target, but adding them to the A10 won't prevent that.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that the BE has any intention of expanding. They added UConn so now is an 11 team league. That means a true round robin everyone plays everybody else twice, a 20 game conference schedule. Why would they expand? I want to see what their next TV contract is.

OSU Flyer · #**187** 09-27-2021, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Chris R

That's 16 appearances. Dayton has 18. Both had one Final Four appearance but Dayton's was in 1967.

UD has 3 NIT titles and 5 runner-ups. That's probably the biggest difference. But in 2021, does it really matter. Id still put UD's overall body of work ahead of Wichita, but I dont think its overly pronounced or overly relevant in modern times. If I were grading current respect in MBB, Id put it at about a draw or slightly in WSUs favor given their greater consistency in the last 10yrs.

Your question is valid: can they sustain it after Marshall's exit. I dont think anyone can say just yet. WSU certainly has the infrastructure and fan base in place to keep it going. I thought McDermott would flounder at Creighton as soon as his son Greg graduated and no longer carried that program on his back. McDermott was a washed-up coach that fizzled at Iowa State. But he's still kicking butt post-Greg and recruiting like a man possessed.

You just never know.

to be fair that might not have been on the up and up

OSU Flyer · #**188** 09-27-2021, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by ud2

Yes, of course, do you believe some of the junk you post?

What is so great about Wichita? Pre-Gregg Marshall they were pretty bad. What makes you so sure that they will continue to be good without him? They went from 1989 to 2005 with zero ncaat appearances. 17 years in a row. What is so great about that? They rode 1 good coach to almost all their recent success.

Wichita NCAA Tournament Appearances
1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021

Mark Turgeon took them to a Sweet 16

They've got the infrastructure in terms of support for the program to be successful

hawkoooo · #**189** 09-28-2021, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

there is no rush to add them

I'm not sure this post could be further from reality.

The A10 is a very attractive alternative to the Ohio Valley. The A10 is, perhaps, a somewhat better alternative to this revamped and expanded MVC...maybe?

The A10 was a very attractive alternative to the MVC at the time Wichita left. Is it now? Is it a very attractive alternative to a crumbling American? How about an American with replacements?

The truth is that there is every rush imaginable to make these additions. Schools don't change leagues every three months. That's why the proactive conferences win these shake ups and the conferences that react to them lose. The A10 has been, is, and will remain losing if it has your unfortunate mindset on the matter.

I have no idea if Wichita State would come if we asked tomorrow. I know they won't come if we don't ask. I know Belmont and Murray State aren't coming. I know the MVC just got a lot better...

jack72 · #**190** 09-28-2021, 09:48 AM

Give us a break on the Vermont talk. If the A10 expands it should be to get better teams, who will compete for the title, not just someone who has a decent record in a very weak conference. How did the George Mason addition work out? Two winning conference seasons and zero NCAA bids in eight years.

springborofan · #**191** 09-28-2021, 11:38 AM

For the A-10, the best addition is by subtraction…

m21eagle45 · #**192** 09-28-2021, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by jack72

Give us a break on the Vermont talk. If the A10 expands it should be to get better teams, who will compete for the title, not just someone who has a decent record in a very weak conference. How did the George Mason addition work out? Two winning conference seasons and zero NCAA bids in eight years.

Here is Vermont every year. Go 8-3 against a mostly crap non-conference schedule. Get your doors blown off by a Kansas, lose to another decent power 6, beat GW and the Bonnies when they stink at the beginning of of the season each year. 14-2 or 13-3 in the 25th-27th best conference. Win 2-3 more in the league tourney. Get your 25 wins to inflate your Kenpom. Then get your 14 seed and get blown out in the NCAA Tournament.

OSU Flyer · #**193** 09-28-2021, 12:15 PM

I don't think anyone that the A10 could add really changes the big picture

Even a good but not Marshall level Wichita probably isn't gonna boost the TV deal or change the fact this is a 2-3 bid league

The A10 is what it is at this point

shapanud · #**194** 09-28-2021, 04:21 PM

If the goal is to improve the A10, the decision making process is simple. You have to add a team (or teams) that are better than the average team. This will improve the league. If you add team(s) that are below the current average, you are making the league worse

According the Kenpom program rankings, the 7th best team (out of 14) in the A10 since 1997 is Richmond (98th overall).

So use that are your baseline. Is the program you want to add better or worse than Richmond? If it is better, add them. If it's not, don't.

Obviously this is a simplification because it doesn't take into consideration a number of other variables (can we get rid of the bottom at the same time?), but the basic premise stands.

I posted Program Rankings in another thread, but the only realistic expansion candidates with rankings higher than Richmond are WSU (55) and N Iowa (92).

ud2 · #**195** 09-29-2021, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Vermont? They wouldn't be a top half team in the A10. But I know, you love their realtimeRPI numbers.

I looked at Vermont a little closer, IMO, they are very comparable to Belmont and Murray State. Vermont has consistently dominated its league for quite a while now, they have higher aspirations, they just spent $95 million on their new or upgraded arena, the vibe in the Vermont area is that the local community cares deeply about the men's basketball program/the program matters greatly up there. They are definitely on the rise IMO.

I also looked at Wichita State closer. They have good attendance at around 10k. They had several good Kenpom years with Coach Turgeon but only 1 nccat appearance with him, several good years with Coach Marshall, a good year with current Coach Brown, and the 144 countdown has them slated for another good year this year. But, as I mentioned, they had that 17 year draught. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it wasn't all just Coach Marshall.

I also like Northern Iowa, I forgot about them.

I don't think Wichita State is ever leaving the AAC unless the college basketball landscape changes significantly, so it's irrelevant to talk about them IMO.

I think Belmont, Vermont, and Murray State would be an upgrade over several of the current A10 teams.

My rankings after further review:
1. Wichita State
2. Northern Iowa
3. Belmont/Vermont/Murray State all tied.

Good article on Vermont and its hc:

https://statsbywill.com/2020/04/10/p...nt-basketball/:

Program Reviews: The relentless consistency of Vermont basketball

april 10, 2020 by will warren, posted in program reviews

Welcome to Program Reviews, an earlier-than-expected offseason series where I interview coaches across all levels of college basketball about their program, the 2019-20 season, and what’s still to come. Today, Vermont and John Becker.

If you are under the age of, say, 30, it is just about impossible to remember a time where Vermont wasn’t a yearly 20+ game winner and routine postseason fixture. The Catamounts prominently feature in the greatest Gus Johnson call of all time, they’ve won 20+ games 12 seasons in a row (one of seven schools nationally to do this), they’ve finished .500 or better in conference play in 14 straight seasons, and they’ve won the America East regular season title 10 times in the last 19 seasons. It blew me away a little when I realized Vermont had never made the NCAA Tournament in school history until 2003; it simply feels as if they have always been here.

This is the life, and the consistency, of maybe the most unsung consistent program in college basketball. Everyone knows about Gonzaga by now, but there was a time where they were somewhat similarly overlooked. Same with Belmont, same with St. Mary’s, same with Gregg Marshall-era Winthrop, same with Gregg Marshall-era Wichita State. For that one special day in 2005, Vermont seemed like they could break through the barrier and become a household name.

ud2 · #**196** 09-29-2021, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by bcross

Do you actually believe the stuff you post?

See above post.

Originally Posted by bcross

But what makes Belmont/Vermont a better option?

See above post, I changed my mind after further review, I was not totally familiar with Wichita State's program and history.

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer

Mark Turgeon took them to a Sweet 16

They've got the infrastructure in terms of support for the program to be successful

After further review, I agree.

Originally Posted by jack72

Give us a break on the Vermont talk. If the A10 expands it should be to get better teams, who will compete for the title, not just someone who has a decent record in a very weak conference. How did the George Mason addition work out? Two winning conference seasons and zero NCAA bids in eight years.

I won't argue here, GM has been a big, big disappointment, at the time when they were added to the A10 they were very hot coming off of many good years under Coach Larranaga, but they have not come anywhere close to replicating that. I don't think they would get the invite to the A10 now.

It was apparently all just Larranaga, once he left, they never recovered.

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Here is Vermont every year. Go 8-3 against a mostly crap non-conference schedule. Get your doors blown off by a Kansas, lose to another decent power 6, beat GW and the Bonnies when they stink at the beginning of of the season each year. 14-2 or 13-3 in the 25th-27th best conference. Win 2-3 more in the league tourney. Get your 25 wins to inflate your Kenpom. Then get your 14 seed and get blown out in the NCAA Tournament.

Is this much different than Murray State or Belmont? The OVC and AE are very comparable.

Vermont has wins over Saint John's, Harvard x8, Saint Bonaventure, George Mason, Richmond, and BC.

Originally Posted by shapanud

If the goal is to improve the A10, the decision making process is simple. You have to add a team (or teams) that are better than the average team. This will improve the league. If you add team(s) that are below the current average, you are making the league worse

According the Kenpom program rankings, the 7th best team (out of 14) in the A10 since 1997 is Richmond (98th overall).

So use that are your baseline. Is the program you want to add better or worse than Richmond? If it is better, add them. If it's not, don't.

Obviously this is a simplification because it doesn't take into consideration a number of other variables (can we get rid of the bottom at the same time?), but the basic premise stands.

I posted Program Rankings in another thread, but the only realistic expansion candidates with rankings higher than Richmond are WSU (55) and N Iowa (92).

Fair enough, add NIU and nobody else, WSU isn't joining the A10 IMO.

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

I'm not sure this post could be further from reality.

The A10 is a very attractive alternative to the Ohio Valley. The A10 is, perhaps, a somewhat better alternative to this revamped and expanded MVC...maybe?

The A10 was a very attractive alternative to the MVC at the time Wichita left. Is it now? Is it a very attractive alternative to a crumbling American? How about an American with replacements?

The truth is that there is every rush imaginable to make these additions. Schools don't change leagues every three months. That's why the proactive conferences win these shake ups and the conferences that react to them lose. The A10 has been, is, and will remain losing if it has your unfortunate mindset on the matter.

I have no idea if Wichita State would come if we asked tomorrow. I know they won't come if we don't ask. I know Belmont and Murray State aren't coming. I know the MVC just got a lot better...

Nobody in the AAC is leaving to join the A10.

Nobody in the MVC other than NIU is better than the average A10 team.

The A10 needs to drop 3 or 4 teams, this really needs to happen.

If somebody in the MVC or Vermont gets really hot, you can always poach them later.

Kansas City Flyer 99 · #**197** 09-29-2021, 08:13 AM

NIU is Northern Illinois Univ.

Northern Iowa is UNI.

I would also disagree on the MVC teams vs. A10 teams.

Using the "Average A10 team" --- I would tale UNI, Loyola, Drake, Bradley and Missouri State over GM, URI, GW Duq and St Joe's.

hawkoooo · #**198** 09-29-2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

Nobody in the AAC is leaving to join the A10.

Nobody in the MVC other than NIU is better than the average A10 team.

The A10 needs to drop 3 or 4 teams, this really needs to happen.

If somebody in the MVC or Vermont gets really hot, you can always poach them later.

KC Flyer already cleaned up the UNI typos, thanks for that. The first statement is pure speculation. Why would any AAC team rule out the A10, especially WSU? You seem to be guessing and not basing your guess on any evidence or logic. Funny I actually remember a big rumor that ECU was headed to the A10 during the BE breakup.

For the umpteenth time in this thread alone, the A10 is never dropping teams. Ever. Mentioning this (and I know Chris R does this too) is a complete non sequitur. You might as well be speaking your own language only you understand. Yes this could happen in a merger but no one ever talks about a merger they just talk about dropping teams. Not gonna happen!

Your point, which is not new or interesting in any way, is that you don't think there is anyone worth adding. Cool, good to know. When thinking about this topic from now on I'll make sure to remember that UD2 and a few other UDPriders don't think anyone is good enough to add.

The A10 has gone beyond 14 before. The A10 has added programs that are objectively worse than the potential additions we are discussing in this thread. Murray State, Belmont, and Wichita State would instantly make the conference better and more competitive. If you disagree with this last sentence that is perfectly fine, but a blanket statement that those teams aren't good enough and that we need to remove teams instead is simply not an argument. Provide evidence. Did you defend the addition of George Mason? Did you decry it? Would you advocate it over the teams I've mentioned?

m21eagle45 · #**199** 09-29-2021, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by ud2

I looked at Vermont a little closer, IMO, they are very comparable to Belmont and Murray State. Vermont has consistently dominated its league for quite a while now, they have higher aspirations, they just spent $95 million on their new or upgraded arena, the vibe in the Vermont area is that the local community cares deeply about the men's basketball program/the program matters greatly up there. They are definitely on the rise IMO.

I also looked at Wichita State closer. They have good attendance at around 10k. They had several good Kenpom years with Coach Turgeon but only 1 nccat appearance with him, several good years with Coach Marshall, a good year with current Coach Brown, and the 144 countdown has them slated for another good year this year. But, as I mentioned, they had that 17 year draught. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it wasn't all just Coach Marshall.

I also like Northern Iowa, I forgot about them.

I don't think Wichita State is ever leaving the AAC unless the college basketball landscape changes significantly, so it's irrelevant to talk about them IMO.

I think Belmont, Vermont, and Murray State would be an upgrade over several of the current A10 teams.

My rankings after further review:
1. Wichita State
2. Northern Iowa
3. Belmont/Vermont/Murray State all tied.

Good article on Vermont and its hc:

https://statsbywill.com/2020/04/10/p...nt-basketball/:

Program Reviews: The relentless consistency of Vermont basketball

april 10, 2020 by will warren, posted in program reviews

Welcome to Program Reviews, an earlier-than-expected offseason series where I interview coaches across all levels of college basketball about their program, the 2019-20 season, and what’s still to come. Today, Vermont and John Becker.

If you are under the age of, say, 30, it is just about impossible to remember a time where Vermont wasn’t a yearly 20+ game winner and routine postseason fixture. The Catamounts prominently feature in the greatest Gus Johnson call of all time, they’ve won 20+ games 12 seasons in a row (one of seven schools nationally to do this), they’ve finished .500 or better in conference play in 14 straight seasons, and they’ve won the America East regular season title 10 times in the last 19 seasons. It blew me away a little when I realized Vermont had never made the NCAA Tournament in school history until 2003; it simply feels as if they have always been here.

This is the life, and the consistency, of maybe the most unsung consistent program in college basketball. Everyone knows about Gonzaga by now, but there was a time where they were somewhat similarly overlooked. Same with Belmont, same with St. Mary’s, same with Gregg Marshall-era Winthrop, same with Gregg Marshall-era Wichita State. For that one special day in 2005, Vermont seemed like they could break through the barrier and become a household name.

That $95 Million project has been put on hold due to financial concerns. They have no timetable on when that project will be finished. But you are also misleading. That money is going to multiple projects, not just a new basketball arena. So it's great they are improving their facilities! I have seen first hand they are as bad as the lower teams in the A10, but this isn't going to be a $95million basketball arena and as of now, they do not know when or if it will be done.

Northern Iowa would be a great addition. I have been mentioning them for awhile, but I do not think they would leave the MVC.

For the A10 to improve, we need to add teams that will consistently compete at the top of the league. Not add more teams that will compete for sports 5-10. Wichita State and possibly UNI does this. I have never been big on Belmont and Murray, as you point out they are similar to Vermont. I don't see any of these teams being a consistent threat to top 4 in the league. I like Davidson, but in my opinion they have been a disappointment. They came from a league higher rated than the OVC and American East and have never really been able to become a consistent top 4 team like many thought when they were added.

At this point I would say Wichita State (which I do not see happening), UNI (Which I don't see happening) or stand pat. Adding more middle of the pack teams won't improve the profile of the league. A10 needs a home run, not a double.

EDIT:
After looking back, Davidson has been better than I realized. In their 7 seasons, 4 have been in the top 4 and 3 in spots 5-10.

m21eagle45 · #**200** 09-29-2021, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by hawkoooo

The A10 has gone beyond 14 before. The A10 has added programs that are objectively worse than the potential additions we are discussing in this thread. Murray State, Belmont, and Wichita State would instantly make the conference better and more competitive. If you disagree with this last sentence that is perfectly fine, but a blanket statement that those teams aren't good enough and that we need to remove teams instead is simply not an argument. Provide evidence. Did you defend the addition of George Mason? Did you decry it? Would you advocate it over the teams I've mentioned?

Wichita State would be a great pickup, but I do not see the rest of the teams being mentioned helping raise the profile of the league. Adding more teams to be between 5-10 in the league takes away our second game against VCU or SLU or other teams at the top of the A10. I don't think Belmont, Murray State, or Vermont would be bottom feeders. I just see adding these teams is just adding teams for the sake of it. A10 is a 2-4 bid league now and still would be after.