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  #1  
Old 06-30-2018, 11:46 AM
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Top 144 countdown, 2018-19 edition

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/...p-144-previews

144. Grambling State

143. Illinois
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:20 PM
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Wonder if we will crack the top 100?
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Wonder if we will crack the top 100?
I honestly wonder if we make the list at all...
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2018, 11:10 PM
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Seriously? With 4 returning starters and a gaggle of bench strength coming in? Not even show up on the list? egad.
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  #5  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:02 AM
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I'd be shocked to be below Grambling
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  #6  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:05 AM
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Lol you don't think we're better than Grambling? Get real.

Cunningham by himself should get us on this list. 4 returning starters total and a guy who almost certainly would've started last year had he been healthy (Mikesell). If Kostas was coming back we might even be getting some hype.
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:36 AM
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FWIW, we were #146 in the rpi last year.

We got worse in year 2 under 3 out of our last 4 head coaches, Archie, BG, and JOB.

We went 7-20 in year 1 under OP, no where to go but up there.

We might not be on this top 144 list this year.
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  #8  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
FWIW, we were #146 in the rpi last year.

We got worse in year 2 under 3 out of our last 4 head coaches, Archie, BG, and JOB.

We went 7-20 in year 1 under OP, no where to go but up there.

We might not be on this top 144 list this year.
Remember how far off you were on Kostas being drafted? You need to polish off your crystal ball.

How much wampum or Monopoly money do you want to bet we won't be in the top 144?
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Old 07-01-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
FWIW, we were #146 in the rpi last year.

We got worse in year 2 under 3 out of our last 4 head coaches, Archie, BG, and JOB.

We went 7-20 in year 1 under OP, no where to go but up there.

We might not be on this top 144 list this year.
Stop with your "Fuzzy Math" UD2! Show me some dependent and independent variables ( other than a meaningless fact about a coaches second year) to support your hypothesis. I see a future in politics for you...or maybe CNN 😀
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:41 PM
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Wright State at 141
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
Lol you don't think we're better than Grambling? Get real.

Cunningham by himself should get us on this list. 4 returning starters total and a guy who almost certainly would've started last year had he been healthy (Mikesell). If Kostas was coming back we might even be getting some hype.
I would agree with the Grambling comparison and I agree we are better. However, just about every ranking system (RPI, BPI, Kenpom) had us outside the top 144 last year (and yes, we had Cunningham last year). In some cases we were in the 170's. So the question is, are we materially better than last year? Probably? Maybe?

Losing DD hurts. Losing the other guys maybe not so much, but we still don't really know what we have in Obi, Frankie, Matos and Cohill.

Are those unknowns enough to move us up into the top 144? I hope so, but I won't be shocked if it doesn't.
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  #12  
Old 07-01-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Remember how far off you were on Kostas being drafted? You need to polish off your crystal ball.

How much wampum or Monopoly money do you want to bet we won't be in the top 144?
Did you honestly think we would be #146 and 9th place in the A10 last year, before the season started?
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Old 07-01-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Wright State at 141
The Horizon League has really bottomed out in the conference rpi rankings since Butler and Valeo departed. HL #26 out of 32 leagues last year.

Used to be as high as #11 with Butler and Valpo...as high as #12 with just Valpo, without Butler.
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
The Horizon League has really bottomed out in the conference rpi rankings since Butler and Valeo departed. HL #26 out of 32 leagues last year.

Used to be as high as #11 with Butler and Valpo...as high as #12 with just Valpo, without Butler.
it's one of the worst conferences in America now. They've slid down the seed line in the NCAAs

Gave Northern Kentucky an opportunity to come in and be a contender

Even if Wright State has an excellent season they're probably a 12 seed at best if they win the Horizon tourney
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Did you honestly think we would be #146 and 9th place in the A10 last year, before the season started?
For sure, no. No where did I read where Xeyrius Williams would be a head case. Ryan Mikesell had genetic defects. Kostas really did not want to be there with us. Svoboda would be almost totally underdeveloped for D1 competition. And so on.
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
We got worse in year 2 under 3 out of our last 4 head coaches, Archie, BG, and JOB.
I think this is more a product of the what the previous coaches left behind
Archie and BG were left with good-decent talent

BG's 2nd season he had lost from the previous year the top 3 scorers, the top 2 re-bounders and the assist leader

AM from year 1 to 2 lost 4 of his top 6 scorers

When AM left, he had just graduated the top 3 scorers, re-bounders and assist leaders from his last team at UD leaving AG those holes to fill
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
For sure, no. No where did I read where Xeyrius Williams would be a head case. Ryan Mikesell had genetic defects. Kostas really did not want to be there with us. Svoboda would be almost totally underdeveloped for D1 competition. And so on.
If we re-litigate last year's problems, then we are left with the question of who is to blame, the head coach or the players?

On the one hand, perhaps Grant is very hard to get along with and is not good at player development, thus the departures of KA, Crosby, Williams, Davis, and Svoboda. And perhaps we will have more friction this year between the head coach and his players.
And perhaps Grant did not do a good enough job of coaching up the team, thus the losing record and the 9th place A10 finish.

On the other hand, perhaps KA, Crosby, Williams, and Davis were the problems, and Archie missed on evaluating Svoboda. And perhaps we will have a more harmonious relationship this year between the head coach and his players. And perhaps Archie left Grant with a depleted roster.

Who knows where the truth lies?

But, I think there is enough uncertainty to cast serious doubt on whether we will be included in this top 144 list.

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Old 07-01-2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
If we re-litigate last year's problems, then we are left with the question of who is to blame, the head coach or the players?

On the one hand, perhaps Grant is very hard to get along with and is not good at player development, thus the departures of KA, Crosby, Williams, Davis, and Svoboda. And perhaps we will have more friction this year between the head coach and his players.
And perhaps Grant did not do a good enough job of coaching up the team, thus the losing record and the 9th place A10 finish.

On the other hand, perhaps KA, Crosby, Williams, and Davis were the problems, and Archie missed on evaluating Svoboda. And perhaps we will have a more harmonious relationship this year between the head coach and his players. And perhaps Archie left Grant with a depleted roster.

Who knows where the truth lies?

But, I think there is enough uncertainty to cast serious doubt on whether we will be included in this top 144 list.
I vote for "the other hand". Only I would swap Pierce for Davis. Don't see how you can call Davis a problem, but to be fair I don't see a lot of your posts.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
On the other hand, perhaps KA, Crosby, Williams, and Davis were the problems, and Archie missed on evaluating Svoboda. And perhaps we will have a more harmonious relationship this year between the head coach and his players. And perhaps Archie left Grant with a depleted roster.

Who knows where the truth lies?
I, too, vote for the other hand. Crosby had two years under Archie, so we know that was simply a flawed evaluation when he was recruited. Good kid, unwise use of a scholarship. And did you see Svoboda play? Again, good kid, but yeah, another botched evaluation by Archie. No one can deny Williams and Grant didn’t agree on what was expected of him, and Kostas was done with school even had Archie stayed. So your speculation and eagerness to point a finger at Grant is fueled more by your distaste for him than by reality. And your “1 percent chance Kostas gets drafted” pretty much undercuts your prognostic abilities.

Now, none of this is to suggest Grant is sitting on a powerhouse or even that he’s the best thing since sliced bread. But to create a straw man argument that “maybe” he’s incapable of building “harmonious” relationships with his players seems foolish, as does your statement that “perhaps” Archie left Grant with a depleted roster. Really? “Perhaps”?

Why not quit GUESSING what Coach Grant can do and watch what he DOES do. We’ll know in another year or two whether he’s the man for the job.

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Old 07-01-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
For sure, no. No where did I read where Xeyrius Williams would be a head case. Ryan Mikesell had genetic defects. Kostas really did not want to be there with us. Svoboda would be almost totally underdeveloped for D1 competition. And so on.

I do remember reading on some draft prediction website that both Kostas & Svoboda would be going pro this year.

We are a big unknown this coming year. Last year, the prognosticators & fans all expected a drop off from a 7-seed 2016-17, but only to 1-2 seed NIT territory. We were much worse than that. Do the prognosticators give us the benefit of the doubt and put us in the top-100? I doubt it.

Our offense last year was pedestrian; our defense was horrible. I don't think we've done anything to substantially alter that perception going forward. Adding a 4-star Cohill is nice and Cunningham is a beast, but those are two bright spots in an otherwise murky picture. Obi, Frankie, & Matos, despite our perceptions of them as hidden gems, were not players we stole from UK or Duke. Getting Mikesell back will help, but he wasn't an all-conference player before and there's no indication he'll be one going forward. Excising the metastasized cancer from the team will invariably help, but we are now down two bodies (four if you consider two of our acquisitions are ineligible for the 2018-19 season). We will be a lot quicker with all the SG/SFs we have, but we're going to be an undersized team with one true PG on scholarship. Grant is a solid recruiter and a well liked coach, but while he succeeded at VCU he stumbled at 'Bama, so even he's not a sure bet.

I want to believe we're going to surprise this year; I want to believe we are better than what we will be predicted to do. But I don't see the hard evidence pointing to the pleasant surprise. Are we better than Grambling? I hope and think so, but I think we'd better be ready to see our name in the next week or so on that 144 countdown...
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
I, too, vote for the other hand. Crosby had two years under Archie, so we know that was simply a flawed evaluation when he was recruited. Good kid, unwise use of a scholarship. And did you see Svoboda play? Again, good kid, but yeah, another botched evaluation by Archie. No one can deny Williams and Grant didn’t agree on what was expected of him, and Kostas was done with school even had Archie stayed. So your speculation and eagerness to point a finger at Grant is fueled more by your distaste for him than by reality. And your “1 percent chance Kostas gets drafted” pretty much undercuts your prognostic abilities.

Now, none of this is to suggest Grant is sitting on a powerhouse or even that he’s the best thing since sliced bread. But to create a straw man argument that “maybe” he’s incapable of building “harmonious” relationships with his players seems foolish, as does your statement that “perhaps” Archie left Grant with a depleted roster. Really? “Perhaps”?

Why not quit GUESSING what Coach Grant can do and watch what he DOES do. We’ll know in another year or two whether he’s the man for the job.
Crosby...I think he would have improved in his final 2 years under Archie, sometimes it takes a couple years for a player to develop...we will never know since Archie left.

Svoboda...hard to say either way definitively after only one year, we will never know since Archie left.

KA...hard to say how long he would have stayed had Archie stayed, we will never know.

5 players leaving in 1 year, that is pretty unusual, I stand by the friction/harmonious comments.

Depleted roster...I disagree, CBS's bracketology had us in the first four out in the off-season last year...in addition, some places had us finishing around 4th or better in the A10 last year, we underachieved, per those polls, in finishing 9th.

And even if we know that Grant is not the man for the job in 2 years, it won't make a difference, he will likely get 5 years regardless.

Message boards are big on speculation, absent speculation, the amount of discussion would greatly decrease.

Last edited by ud2; 07-02-2018 at 12:45 AM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:31 AM
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We can disagree on whether the roster was depleted last year, some experts thought it was depleted, some did not...depends on who you ask.


CBS bracketology during the off-season...first 4 out.

Top 144 countdown: #53, 3rd place, NIT

A10 poll...5th place

Street and Smith's...8th

Athlon 4th place

Lindy's 6th place

Sports Illustrated 5th place

NBC 5th place

Three man weave, 7th place, NIT projection.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:16 AM
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All your perseason data doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Williams quit on the team, Pierce never was a part of the team. Svoboda tried but the game was too fast for him. Kostas, long on potential was short on performance. I know you are not a fan of AG, to put it mildly, but he had a short roster of capable players. Thankfully the situation has been corrected.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:19 AM
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What I don't get is Flyer fans that want to debate how bad we were or are going to be. I recognize that our team may at times not be what we want them to be but it is what it is I have no desire to make arguments to prove that we are or will be not as good as we would like them to be.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Crosby...I think he would have improved ...

Svoboda...hard to say ...

KA...hard to say ...

I stand by the friction/harmonious comments.

Depleted roster...I disagree ...

Message boards are big on speculation ...
You’re great at using phrases like “I think” and “hard to say” even when the performance we all witnessed is about as clear as it can get. Crosby had three years to prove himself and didn’t get it done. Period. Svoboda had oodles of playing time and was a disappointment. Period. Both left for opportunities more befitting their talent level and not because of “disharmony” with Grant. Period. And the coaching staff openly acknowledged that Kostas was NEVER going to play more than a year or two in Dayton. Period.

You can stick to your guns if you choose, but you’re firing blanks. And yes, boards like this are big on speculation. I mean, I could speculate that Josh Cunningham is going to sprout four inches over the summer and be an NBA lottery pick. But I know the difference between fiction and fact. Your brand of speculation simply ignores what most of us SAW on the court or heard from reliable sources.

Period.

Last edited by The Fly; 07-02-2018 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
What I don't get is Flyer fans that want to debate how bad we were or are going to be. I recognize that our team may at times not be what we want them to be but it is what it is I have no desire to make arguments to prove that we are or will be not as good as we would like them to be.
There isn't really a way to talk about last season without talking about how bad we were at times. So are we not allowed to talk about last season? Are we only allowed to talk about the home game against VCU?

And when we talk about the upcoming season, there is room for optimism and I believe we will be one of the best 144 teams. That doesn't mean the guy assembling this list agrees with that - which is what this thread and debate is about.

And before you get all uppity about Flyer fans acknowledging our short-comings, you are the one who "got no joy" from Kostas getting invited to the combine. So while we debate whether or not we will be any good (we all want us to be good) you can continue not giving a crap if former Flyers have continued success.

That's one that I will never understand.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:28 AM
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I have no problem with people criticizing the program or pointing out where we are bad and need to get better. It is however disappointing when after one year it is clear that there are folks on this board who, for whatever reason, dislike AG more than they love the program and therefore are, in my opinion, rooting for him to fail even though that means that the team and program fail as well.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
There isn't really a way to talk about last season without talking about how bad we were at times. So are we not allowed to talk about last season? Are we only allowed to talk about the home game against VCU?

And when we talk about the upcoming season, there is room for optimism and I believe we will be one of the best 144 teams. That doesn't mean the guy assembling this list agrees with that - which is what this thread and debate is about.

And before you get all uppity about Flyer fans acknowledging our short-comings, you are the one who "got no joy" from Kostas getting invited to the combine. So while we debate whether or not we will be any good (we all want us to be good) you can continue not giving a crap if former Flyers have continued success.

That's one that I will never understand.
We're even - I guess I don't understand you and you don't understand me.

Fair enough on the "got no joy" on Kostas being invited to the combine. I said I was "indifferent". I don't think that is quite the same as "not giving a crap" but to you I guess not. That's fair.

Uppity? It is not the acknowledging of the shortcomings, its the point after point after point to prove the negative points.

To each his own. We all get what we want out of reading and posting on this board.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:02 PM
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Certain people who didn't like the Grant hire continue to point out all the negative stuff to belittle Grant and prove they were right that he was a bad hire. They point to the pre-season predictions (which mean basically nothing) to show that we fell short of expectations - therefore Grant is a bad coach. Therefore they were right about the hire.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:19 PM
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I just want to be on record as a very pro-Grant guy.

But at the same time, I'm not going to pretend last year didn't happen. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

What's my point? You can be disappointed in how the team did and still support AG. You can be skeptical about the upcoming season, and still support AG.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:46 PM
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I'll just say that last year, IMO, has no relation to any issues Grant may have had at Alabama. I know people will try to draw correlations but it's simply not possible. Grant isn't the same guy he was then, the players aren't the same, the university isn't the same, etc.

Grant should be solely judged on what he does here. Was last year bad? Yes. Was it Grant
s fault? To some degree. Is he accountable for it? Yes, even though some things may have been out of his control. As much as I want my Flyers to win, I believe Grant needs to be given sufficient time to build his team, his culture, etc. I'm sure the duration of such is debatable, and that doesn't mean that he is immune from criticism, but he still must be and will be given time to correct course.

As such, I couldn't care less about pre-season rankings, pre-season tournament projections, etc. They are meaningless, and just published to generate clicks/discussion during a slow time for college basketball. I'd much rather talk about summer practices, who we are interviewing to hire for the S&C and assistant coaching positions, recruits, etc, than whether we are in some kind of top 144 something or other.

I'm not saying anyone who wants to discuss shouldn't, just that in the overall scheme of things, some writer's determination of top 144 teams doesn't amount to anything.
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
You’re great at using phrases like “I think” and “hard to say” even when the performance we all witnessed is about as clear as it can get. Crosby had three years to prove himself and didn’t get it done. Period. Svoboda had oodles of playing time and was a disappointment. Period. Both left for opportunities more befitting their talent level and not because of “disharmony” with Grant. Period. And the coaching staff openly acknowledged that Kostas was NEVER going to play more than a year or two in Dayton. Period.

You can stick to your guns if you choose, but you’re firing blanks. And yes, boards like this are big on speculation. I mean, I could speculate that Josh Cunningham is going to sprout four inches over the summer and be an NBA lottery pick. But I know the difference between fiction and fact. Your brand of speculation simply ignores what most of us SAW on the court or heard from reliable sources.

Period.
We will just have to agree to disagree.

Some players have improved a lot vs. their earlier years in the program: Kavanaugh, Benson, and Oliver. Just because Crosby, Svoboda, and KA did not impress initially, does not mean that they could not have blossomed later on.

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Certain people who didn't like the Grant hire continue to point out all the negative stuff to belittle Grant and prove they were right that he was a bad hire. They point to the pre-season predictions (which mean basically nothing) to show that we fell short of expectations - therefore Grant is a bad coach. Therefore they were right about the hire.
All 3 of the last 3 head coaches have received sharp criticism at some point.

Quoting MNFats:

Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
You can be disappointed in how the team did and still support AG. You can be skeptical about the upcoming season, and still support AG.

Last edited by ud2; 07-02-2018 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:33 AM
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2018 Battle 4 Atlantis participant, #137 Stanford.

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16361
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:25 PM
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I will hazard a guess of between 118 and 128 for us.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
2018 Battle 4 Atlantis participant, #137 Stanford.

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16361
Stanford is an interesting comparison. They lost about 60% of their rebounding and scoring and only return two 10 point scorers from a one-and-done NIT team. The returnees are very young plus they are enjoying 5 new Freshmen players. There is a positive vibe with a third year coach showing progress each year, and projected to be a CBI/CIT team this season.
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post

Some players have improved a lot vs. their earlier years in the program: Kavanaugh, Benson, and Oliver. Just because Crosby, Svoboda, and KA did not impress initially, does not mean that they could not have blossomed later on.
Crosby did improve, but also had clearly topped out. Svoboda was a puzzle as to how several coaches, while scouting, did not either see him in action, or got desperate and took a chance. Didn't work, and then he became the casualty of a new regime that think they can do better. That course was heavily supported.
Kostas is going to get a lot better, but it wasn't going to be at Dayton. His choice. I love the one NBA scout's comment that Kostas was a few years away from being a few years away. Do forget, Kostas did not understand college in general as an ingredient to success.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Crosby did improve, but also had clearly topped out. Svoboda was a puzzle as to how several coaches, while scouting, did not either see him in action, or got desperate and took a chance. Didn't work, and then he became the casualty of a new regime that think they can do better. That course was heavily supported.
Kostas is going to get a lot better, but it wasn't going to be at Dayton. His choice. I love the one NBA scout's comment that Kostas was a few years away from being a few years away. Do forget, Kostas did not understand college in general as an ingredient to success.
Crosby did improve early on and then regressed...... he tried too hard and didnít handle criticism that well. With all of the video out there rival coaches adjusted there offense and defense. Svoboda was a crap shoot by Archie......I believe he was just getting bodies. He did not fit Archieís system or Grants with Archie being a huggie feel guy and Grant a disciplinarian.

Social media, 24 hour sports with all the talking heads, makes it hard for a these kids. They donít realize that it is not the coaches responsibility to make them stars. Mikesell has the type of work ethic that I like.
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Old 07-07-2018, 12:34 PM
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Tulsa #130...playing them at Mohegan Sun casino.

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16378
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:25 PM
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Tulsa

should be favored to win by the wise guys.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:00 PM
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VCU the first A10 team on the list at 128. Picked to finish 8th in the conference

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16381
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
VCU the first A10 team on the list at 128. Picked to finish 8th in the conference

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16381
They have not missed consecutive NCAAT's since 2005 and 2006...Rhoades will be expected to deliver this year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...etball_seasons
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
VCU the first A10 team on the list at 128. Picked to finish 8th in the conference

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/16381
.

Are there seven teams in conference better than us? I donít think so, but if we see a couple more A-10 squads and not our own, Iím going to get worried.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:58 AM
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Last season we were overrated preseason. Maybe this year we will be underrated preseason. I like our chances of surprising some people this season.
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