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  #1  
Old 02-17-2018, 03:26 PM
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Losing Seasons

After watching the effort put forth last Tuesday (or the lack thereof) - I decided to review my tenure as a Dayton Flyer fan.

We've had one losing season since 2000.

My senior year Jim O'Brien became coach and took the Flyers to the NCAA and 22 wins. This was followed by 14, 15 wins seasons and then the 2 dark years of Dayton basketball in which 10 total wins were accumulated (6 and 4).

In comes Purnell with 7 wins his first year, but he pulled the program out of the gutter and ended with four 20+ win seasons for a total of 5 20+ win seasons.

Then the frequently bashed Brian Gregory came to town and in 8 years had one losing season and two others (18 & 19) below 20 wins. Gregory also had five 20+ win seasons with the winningest class in UD history (at the time). Teams played hard.

Along comes Archie - NIT, 17 wins in year 2, followed by the greatest run the history of the program (so glad the Craft and Ennis shots didn't fall).

So here we are - Anthony Grant was dealt a hand of cards similar to what Archie was dealt the senior year of Jordan Siebert as far as bench availability, but worse off as far as experience.

I was a big fan of the Anthony Grant hire at the beginning of the year (and mostly still a fan). I actually would have wanted him when we hired Archie (not knowing what Archie would bring).

That being said - I can tolerate team inexperience. I can tolerate lack of basketball aptitude. I can tolerate losing.

I CANNOT tolerate a LACK OF EFFORT like we saw last Tuesday. I am a diehard fan who will suffer through 12-14 win seasons, but when I see players walking with their heads down and laughing on the bench when getting blasted by 20 at George Mason - I am out.

This is not intended to be a slam on the 2-3 players who are showing effort on every play.

I am moving on to next season. Go Flyers!

Sorry for the rant. Been a while since I posted.
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  #2  
Old 02-17-2018, 03:45 PM
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The lack of effort CAN be attributed to fatigue, not necessarily, but can be. Laughing while getting pummeled is inexcusable.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:48 PM
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Makes you appreciate what Archie did with a short bench
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
The lack of effort CAN be attributed to fatigue, not necessarily, but can be. Laughing while getting pummeled is inexcusable.
Quit making excuses, John Chaney at Temple played 6-7 guys for 30 years and won on a regular basis, these are 19-20 year old kids who play basketball every day
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Makes you appreciate what Archie did with a short bench
And AM did it with 5 very good, very experienced players. Not taking away from what they did at all but that was a very tough group. Not even close to the level of experience we have primarily from our starting 5.
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Quit making excuses, John Chaney at Temple played 6-7 guys for 30 years and won on a regular basis, these are 19-20 year old kids who play basketball every day
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Donoher did it also for the majority of his coaching years; it was the norm back then. It's a completely different game today. Nobody is making excuses and btw...the season isn't over yet.

Also, I continually hear you badger, ***** and complain about AG, you never have said who you'd rather had coaching; and don't say one of AM's assistants as most weren't going to stay or even be considered. From the outside looking in: who?

(and btw, i would have taken Tom Crean had he been chosen over AG; he's definitely better than AM or AG)

Last edited by longtimefan67; 02-17-2018 at 05:46 PM.. Reason: add
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
And AM did it with 5 very good, very experienced players. Not taking away from what they did at all but that was a very tough group. Not even close to the level of experience we have primarily from our starting 5.
Umm, Pierre and Sibert were experienced. Kyle, Kendall and Scoochie were far from VERY experienced in their sophomore seasons. And you certainly couldn't have been referring to Wehrli and Baby D.
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Quit making excuses, John Chaney at Temple played 6-7 guys for 30 years and won on a regular basis, these are 19-20 year old kids who play basketball every day
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BG made no excuses and ran his players into ground every year. No excuses. Except that UD would have a losing record every February. No excuses, just losses. Archie rested his players and reduced practice time when he had the short bench. Archie’s 2 bench players would contribute so the starters were not playing close to 40 every night.

In college, we won an intramural game when we played almost the entire game with only four players. We outran the other team. I’ve never seen any D1 college do it, but we did. Wow! Why can’t Grant do the same? After all. we did it. I guess that is another lame excuse. Maybe we should get my three teammates together and we will beat Rhode Island.
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Umm, Pierre and Sibert were experienced. Kyle, Kendall and Scoochie were far from VERY experienced in their sophomore seasons. And you certainly couldn't have been referring to Wehrli and Baby D.
the revisionist history around the Archie era now among UD fans is amazing
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Donoher did it also for the majority of his coaching years; it was the norm back then. It's a completely different game today. Nobody is making excuses and btw...the season isn't over yet.

Also, I continually hear you badger, ***** and complain about AG, you never have said who you'd rather had coaching; and don't say one of AM's assistants as most weren't going to stay or even be considered. From the outside looking in: who?

(and btw, i would have taken Tom Crean had he been chosen over AG; he's definitely better than AM or AG)
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  #11  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Yeah, that must have been an attempt at trolling because to say that someone who got fired is "definitely" better than the person who was chosen to replace him, not even a full season after the fact, is mixing his butthurt feelings of AM leaving us with his urge to troll. So far AM has gotten his teams to the post season 5 out of 6 seasons with 4 of those being NCAA with a team from the A10. Crean can't come close to that percentage even with teams from much better conferences and a history of some national championships.
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Umm, Pierre and Sibert were experienced. Kyle, Kendall and Scoochie were far from VERY experienced in their sophomore seasons. And you certainly couldn't have been referring to Wehrli and Baby D.
They played a full season, had a full summer of practice, that's a huge difference.
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
They played a full season, had a full summer of practice, that's a huge difference.
Scoochie 641 minutes, kendall 316 minutes and Kyle 239 minutes. You said VERY experienced. You're full of it. Look, we know you hate Archie Miller for being a young coach that took a rare golden opportunity that every realist knew was coming. No need to keep pushing your agenda with dishonest alternative facts.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Scoochie 641 minutes, kendall 316 minutes and Kyle 239 minutes. You said VERY experienced. You're full of it. Look, we know you hate Archie Miller for being a young coach that took a rare golden opportunity that every realist knew was coming. No need to keep pushing your agenda with dishonest alternative facts.
Crutcher - 0 minutes Division 1 experience
Jordan Davis -0 minutes Division 1 experience
Trey Landers < 55 minutes Division 1 experience
(See the difference Smitty? Thats 1196 min vs 56 Division 1 minutes- YOU are full of it)

Btw I don’t hate AM- every coach is entitled to leave for greener pastures. Just don’t say things like “I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships” - etc...when you have no intentions of staying. It feels, sounds and smells really dishonest and self serving and it was
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Last edited by longtimefan67; 02-17-2018 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Crutcher - 0 minutes Division 1 experience
Jordan Davis -0 minutes Division 1 experience
Trey Laners < 55 minutes Division 1 experience
(See the difference Smitty? Thats 1196 min vs 56 Division 1 minutes- YOU are full of it)

Btw I don’t hate AM- every coach is entitled to leave for greener pastures. Just don’t say things like “I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships” - etc...when you have no intentions of staying. It feels, sounds and smells really dishonest and self serving and it was
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Again, how does that equate to "five very experienced players"? Don't try and say you were comparing with this season because you weren't. There are other differences. AM had no choice but to use his 5 starters the way he did. AG has other choices but chooses not to. Archie's bench was a Freshman and a walk-on. AG's is 2 juniors and 3 freshman(all scholarship). So don't try and act like AM had all the advantages. AM had no choice, AG has choices.

And who's to say he didn't expect to be here a couple more years? We don't know. He certainly didn't know that one of the premiere basketball schools in the country would come calling last spring. And he did build something special. Whether that special something implodes due to a new regime is the question.

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Old 02-17-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Btw I don’t hate AM- every coach is entitled to leave for greener pastures. Just don’t say things like “I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships” - etc...when you have no intentions of staying. It feels, sounds and smells really dishonest and self serving and it was
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Archie accomplished all of that at Dayton. What's the issue?
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:00 PM
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How long till people starting demanding the elite 8 banner come down
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
How long till people starting demanding the elite 8 banner come down
no, no, no, that will never happen. What will happen is they will point to it and say "That banner wouldn't be there but for Brian Gregory recruiting Oliver and Kavs." Kind of like how AG got VCU to the final four.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:10 PM
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You really have to see some of the stuff people post on here to believe it.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Archie accomplished all of that at Dayton. What's the issue?
You’re missing the point
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Archie accomplished all of that at Dayton. What's the issue?
Not only that but it actually shows true focus on AM's part. Everybody else had him getting offers that couldn't be refused yet AM kept his attention on the school he was working for. If I'm a manager of a company and my boss asks me what my goals were, I could say "My goals are to lead my group in their part to reach the lofty goals the company has set for the end of next year". Then I get an offer from another company the next day, one I had no idea was coming or at least knew not to focus on because nothing's certain. I take it. Doesn't mean I was being dishonest about my goals the day before. Just means I had my priorities straight at the time the question was asked.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
You really have to see some of the stuff people post on here to believe it.
And then like clockwork, 3 minutes later, longtimefan67 proves your point.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yeah, that must have been an attempt at trolling because to say that someone who got fired is "definitely" better than the person who was chosen to replace him, not even a full season after the fact, is mixing his butthurt feelings of AM leaving us with his urge to troll.
Look who's talking about butthurt feelings and trolling.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Look who's talking about butthurt feelings and trolling.
How old are you? 8?
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
And then like clockwork, 3 minutes later, longtimefan67 proves your point.
Smitty, wth are you talking about?
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Just don’t say things like “I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships” - etc...when you have no intentions of staying. It feels, sounds and smells really dishonest and self serving and it was
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You're right, I think he owes you an apology. I'll see if I can get one from him for you.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Browns View Post
You're right, I think he owes you an apology. I'll see if I can get one from him for you.
Look, i acknowledge his (AM) accomplishments at UD. But the way he left was self serving and I have a right to not like that. Just like you have a right to not like AG and hope he fails so you look "smart" and "called it".

Can I ask a question since you're all so sure AG will fail? What if AG surpasses what AM does here? Will you acknowledge you were wrong about judging him in his first season? Or will you just disappear and never post again. It's like someone else had mentioned....it's like you want to be right about AG being the wrong guy rather than just hope he's the right guy and has a very successful career....

Last edited by longtimefan67; 02-17-2018 at 10:37 PM.. Reason: add context
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Look, i acknowledge his (AM) accomplishments at UD. But the way he left was self serving and I have a right to not like that. Just like you have a right to not like AG and hope he fails so you look "smart" and "called it".

Can I ask a question since you're all so sure AG will fail? What if AG surpasses what AM does here? Will you acknowledge you were wrong about judging him in his first season? Or will you just disappear and never post again. It's like someone else had mentioned....it's like you want to be right about AG being the wrong guy rather than just hope he's the right guy and has a very successful career....
Just curious, as you seem to be taking a BIG exception to the manner in which Archie left, but how do you view the circumstances of his departure as “self serving”? And can you describe another situation, where a coach is leaving for a much better job, big pay raise, etc. that couldn’t be considered “self serving”?

Personally, I didn’t have any issues with how Archie left and any of the comments he ever made about his commitment to success and long term vision and aspirations for the UD basketball program.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:47 PM
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People tend to be self serving about their careers
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Look, i acknowledge his (AM) accomplishments at UD. But the way he left was self serving and I have a right to not like that. Just like you have a right to not like AG and hope he fails so you look "smart" and "called it".

Can I ask a question since you're all so sure AG will fail? What if AG surpasses what AM does here? Will you acknowledge you were wrong about judging him in his first season? Or will you just disappear and never post again. It's like someone else had mentioned....it's like you want to be right about AG being the wrong guy rather than just hope he's the right guy and has a very successful career....
Excuse me but I've kept my comments directed to the way he's coached this year without any firm projections for the future. I own nobody an apology no matter how this turns out http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31836
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Just curious, as you seem to be taking a BIG exception to the manner in which Archie left, but how do you view the circumstances of his departure as “self serving”? And can you describe another situation, where a coach is leaving for a much better job, big pay raise, etc. that couldn’t be considered “self serving”?

Personally, I didn’t have any issues with how Archie left and any of the comments he ever made about his commitment to success and long term vision and aspirations for the UD basketball program.
I don't think he had any intention of staying at UD long-term even though he made many comments to the contrary. He didn't even listen to a counter-offer from UD - from what I've heard (could be wrong about that but believe it was reported both in newspaper and radio). Glad to see you don't have any issues with it, i know plenty of people that do.

Now, you going to answer my second paragraph?
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Just curious, as you seem to be taking a BIG exception to the manner in which Archie left, but how do you view the circumstances of his departure as “self serving”? And can you describe another situation, where a coach is leaving for a much better job, big pay raise, etc. that couldn’t be considered “self serving”?

Personally, I didn’t have any issues with how Archie left and any of the comments he ever made about his commitment to success and long term vision and aspirations for the UD basketball program.
Not only that, I have an added question. How do you think Neil Sullivan would prefer Archie address his future at that time

1. Can't predict my future, I might be hired by another school with an offer I just can't refuse.
2. NO COMMENT!!!
3. I'm here just to play out the string until something better comes along.
4. I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships.

If you pick any but #4 you're lying to yourself. So his answer to the his future expectations for the Flyers also served the Athletic Director and the school.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Excuse me but I've kept my comments directed to the way he's coached this year without any firm projections for the future. I own nobody an apology no matter how this turns out http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31836
That comment was directed at SLUFLYER or anybody else wanting to project a JOB experience via AG.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Not only that, I have an added question. How do you think Neil Sullivan would prefer Archie address his future at that time

1. Can't predict my future, I might be hired by another school with an offer I just can't refuse.
2. NO COMMENT!!!
3. I'm here just to play out the string until something better comes along.
4. I want to build something special here, I’m so happy, love the tradition- wanna build winning traditions, win championships.

If you pick any but #4 you're lying to yourself. So his answer to the his future expectations for the Flyers also served the Athletic Director and the school.
See Smitty, that's the problem. It wasn't that I believed #4 above^, AM just shouldn't have been making those kind of comments all along - at least in public. I have NFC what he was saying in private to Neil Sullivan and maybe he actually meant it in 13-14 after the E8 run since up to that point, it was his only real successful season. But i would have respected him a lot more had he said something like "I love it here but if a much better opportunity comes along, I'd probably owe to myself to investigate it, just like any other coach."
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
See Smitty, that's the problem. It wasn't that I believed #4 above^, AM just shouldn't have been making those kind of comments all along - at least in public. I have NFC what he was saying in private to Neil Sullivan and maybe he actually meant it in 13-14 after the E8 run since up to that point, it was his only real successful season. But i would have respected him a lot more had he said something like "I love it here but if a much better opportunity comes along, I'd probably owe to myself to investigate it, just like any other coach."
Can you please show me a few quotes like that from any other coach at any other school? Believe me, that's terrible public relations and fans would be po'd if that would've happened. The media would've run with that and it would've just been an unnecessary mess. Not only that, UD probably doesn't want their employees even insinuating to the press that there's an inkling of a possibility of a better place to be. Especially one as a high profile as the coach of the basketball team.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:09 PM
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Let's be real about coaches. If higher level programs don't want to hire your coach, the coach is awful and/or your program is awful. If your coach does not talk to other schools who offer him a chance to win a national championship, then he lacks championship mentality. National championship programs don't want to hire mediocre coaches.

Archie raised the bar. He talked and walked UD A10 championships. His predecessors did not. UD coached him early on to only take top jobs next. They knew what they had and were thrilled that he stayed 6 years. I'd rather have a coveted coach who wins championships and is a target for other programs than a coach who can't raise the bar. That concept worked at X, until they became a top tier program. Now Chris M. Does not many higher programs to go and he has a chance to win a national championship (just like Villanova did).

While Archie was at Dayton, he promoted the program more than himself. He helped raise the national profile of Dayton.

About his recruits. He had a some swing and misses in just about every class. He had a star player die. He had more misses in one class than normal. That comes with territory of a program like UD which must gamble every year on recruiting.

If Archie could have recruited national championship caliber players at UD, he would still be the coach here. Period.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Also, I continually hear you badger, ***** and complain about AG, you never have said who you'd rather had coaching; and don't say one of AM's assistants as most weren't going to stay or even be considered. From the outside looking in: who?

(and btw, i would have taken Tom Crean had he been chosen over AG; he's definitely better than AM or AG)
IINM, Kuwik and Ostrom both interviewed.

And I disagree about Crean, unfortunately, I do not think he is a great coach. I think that Archie will do much better at IU than Crean did.

Crean would not have been a good hire at UD.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:18 PM
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Based on Archie's personal conduct, quitting developing players, abandoning trying to recruit and leaving nothing behind on the roster I'm starting to wonder if AG doesn't have a bigger uphill climb than OP
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Can you please show me a few quotes like that from any other coach at any other school? Believe me, that's terrible public relations and fans would be po'd if that would've happened. The media would've run with that and it would've just been an unnecessary mess. Not only that, UD probably doesn't want their employees even insinuating to the press that there's an inkling of a possibility of a better place to be. Especially one as a high profile as the coach of the basketball team.
I think it would have been okay to say #1 above. Mack at Xavier said, paraphrasing, "I have learned that you never say never" about other jobs. And nobody went nuts over him saying that.

I don't blame people for being really mad about what Archie said about staying at UD, it is what it is. But, it is time to get over it and let it go and move on.

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Old 02-17-2018, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Based on Archie's personal conduct, quitting developing players, abandoning trying to recruit and leaving nothing behind on the roster I'm starting to wonder if AG doesn't have a bigger uphill climb than OP
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Sarcasm or not, you make a very good point about the comparison between AG & OP. In OP’s case, the program had nowhere to go but up. He!!, if OP’s record after his first 26 games had been 12-14, we’d have done backflips. But AG has come into an entirely different situation, with our Flyers having made 4 straight NCAA tournaments, and him having very few of the weapons from any of those squads at his disposal. So, whose job is/was harder? The guy who had to build something from nothing? Or the guy who had to sustain something with (close to) nothing left from the days of “something”?
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Sarcasm or not, you make a very good point about the comparison between AG & OP. In OP’s case, the program had nowhere to go but up. He!!, if OP’s record after his first 26 games had been 12-14, we’d have done backflips. But AG has come into an entirely different situation, with our Flyers having made 4 straight NCAA tournaments, and him having very few of the weapons from any of those squads at his disposal. So, whose job is/was harder? The guy who had to build something from nothing? Or the guy who had to sustain something with (close to) nothing left from the days of “something”?
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That's a good question. But let's correct one thing here, AG wasn't asked to sustain, all of us expected some regression, just not the regression we've gotten.

AG is under more pressure than OP, no doubt. But OP had to convince better recruits(then what we'd had leading into his reign) to come here to get his job done. He had to convince better recruits to come to a program that hadn't made any real national noise(Flyers didn't get that much press for their win against Illinois in 1990) in almost 10 years and had won 10 games in the previous two season and only 17 in 3 seasons counting his first. And had no winning seasons for 5 seasons in a row.

So OP had to convince recruits that they would be coming to a program that's committed to turning things around while AG gets to point to the previous 4 seasons and use that as a selling point.

I'd say it's a wash. OP turned out to be what we needed and accomplishing what we'd hoped for. AG is being asked in the long run to make our program the best it's been since the 60s but with a base that already achieved that. He's asked to improve upon it. That's tough, but that's what's expected.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by UD90 View Post
That being said - I can tolerate team inexperience. I can tolerate lack of basketball aptitude. I can tolerate losing.

I CANNOT tolerate a LACK OF EFFORT like we saw last Tuesday. I am a diehard fan who will suffer through 12-14 win seasons, but when I see players walking with their heads down and laughing on the bench when getting blasted by 20 at George Mason - I am out..
And you have proven EXACTLY why certain players asses are glued to the bench.

Maybe those complaining about lineups and wearing out the starters would realize that, but I highly doubt it.

AG is rewarding attitude and effort. If you don't have it, go invest in some luggage and a box truck...you are going to need it.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
And you have proven EXACTLY why certain players asses are glued to the bench.

Maybe those complaining about lineups and wearing out the starters would realize that, but I highly doubt it.

AG is rewarding attitude and effort. If you don't have it, go invest in some luggage and a box truck...you are going to need it.
Well stated, Shocka! Anthony Grant is adjusting a few attitudes. He wore the Flyer uniform with pride and played his butt off 30 years ago. Now he is expecting the same. He will go down the whole list of players, including walk-ons, until he finds players who want to do the same. At this point, he has found six or seven players who are willing to wear the Flyer uniform with pride and who desire to pour their guts out every time they walk on the court...ala Kyle Davis!!!
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:23 AM
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Yesterday I went to Pace University Setters (3-15, Pleasantville, NY) v Southern Connecticut University Owls (11-8, New Haven, CT) mens game at Pace. Maybe 1,000 people there including people working. Division II - Northeast 10 Conference. Pace has kids mostly from NY \ NJ area. Southern Connecticut had kids from Mass, Conn, Wisc., Denmark and Illinois. Pace won 67=60. Each team had 10 players dressed.

SCU coached by Scott Burrell, who was a #1 draft pick from UConn in 1993 and played in NBA for 12 years with different teams including 1998 Chicago Bulls champions.

Point being. These kids had nothing to play for and few to play in front of. Yet they all played hard and fast. Running up and down the court with abandon on fast breaks. Hitting the baskets hard and the floor hard when knocked to the ground. Sure it wasn't the big time Division 1 major and mid major programs with high profile recruits and overly well dressed coaches.

But it was a lot of fun to watch and very entertaining and you appreciated the effort put forth by these kids. Had no routing interest so just watched players, schemes, coaching moves etc.

Why not take any of our disgruntled players who don't want to put forth the effort or think they are better than the our program or coaches, or who have attitude issues or think they would be better off elsewhere, take them to one of these games with lesser hyped programs in empty small arenas and see what it's like in the nuts and bolts basketball world. Because that's where you will be playing if you don't like it at UD.

You don't realize what you have until you don't have it anymore.
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  #45  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
I don't think he had any intention of staying at UD long-term even though he made many comments to the contrary. He didn't even listen to a counter-offer from UD - from what I've heard (could be wrong about that but believe it was reported both in newspaper and radio). Glad to see you don't have any issues with it, i know plenty of people that do.

Now, you going to answer my second paragraph?
I didn’t have any questions or comments about your second paragraph. It’s ok to respond to or question just certain comments of a specific post, isn’t it?

But if you’re interested in my thoughts on AG, I personally “hope” he was and is a great hire. It’s difficult for most fans to really evaluate and make a judgement of the hire on Day 1 (udscott says he’s told us since day 1 this was a massive bust), since there are a lot of factors and conversations between potential coach and administration that we’re not privy to.

What I liked about the hire most is that as a guy who had been close to the “big time” job at Florida, coached in a big conference and then spent several years in the NBA, I felt that at this point in his career and as an alum, we might finally get someone that has long term staying power and wasn’t viewing us a stepping stone job. Of course, all this is only ideal if the hire is a good one. It could make for a lot of hard feelings if it doesn’t work out.

I was optimistic and energized by the hire and that optimism and energy isn’t any less today. I don’t have a lot of criticisms about how he’s coaching re: philosophy, player minutes and in game strategy. I would love to see a greater intention of getting the ball in JC’s hands near the lower block and run the offense thru him. He could be a candidate for triple doubles if he identifies the double team quickly (assuming it comes) and makes the right read. I don’t mind shooting threes out of this type of offense, as we’ve demonstrated we have the ability to get hot and shoot it at a high percentage. I trust that we constantly work on base defensive principles and better lateral movement by our guards to thwart penetration. And conversely, I trust we’re working with our guards to identify and execute gap penetration against the zone so we don’t just have to “shoot” teams out of a zone. As far as timeout usage, I was at the SLU game and I don’t recall a point where I felt “man, how bout a timeout?” And on minutes played, he’s putting the guys on the floor that he feels is going to give UD the best chance to win - both that night and moving forward.

As far as Archie’s sincerity about wanting to build a long term winner at UD, I take it at face value and believe it whole heartedly. I interpret such a comment as “As I want to be hear for a long time and build something special. But, you know, I have to always evaluate my situation, should circumstances change.” No coach in America, certainly not while winning at a high rate of success is going to state that publicly. To think otherwise would be naive.

I suspect, as it’s been reported, that there were a few jobs that Archie had built into his contract that he could leave for with a limited to no buyout clause. That’s Archie being very transparent about his intentions and honest with his employer. No surprises, defined expectations, open communication - that’s critical in a healthy business relationship. Archie never talked about other jobs publicly. Never a distraction. But if he did in fact have a few jobs listed in his contract, he probably had some conversations with Neil off the record when they opened up and am confident he let him know if he was talking with such. He was a consummate professional while at UD. And I don’t fault him for not even looking at a counter offer from UD, if that is accurate. He knew what he wanted and he took. There’s a reason he reportedly had a few programs on his exempt list in his contract.

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  #46  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
That comment was directed at SLUFLYER or anybody else wanting to project a JOB experience via AG.
Pardon, but where did I project a JOB experience via AG?? You’ve drastically misunderstood something or have me very confused with someone else.

Please clarify or point to a post where you interpreted such. My thoughts re: AG are outlined in my previous post in this thread.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:03 AM
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Guys that are playing lower divisions aren't doing it for the fanfare, they are doing it for the love of the game. It isn't glamorous putting in the same exact work as a DI ball player with none of the benefits. Yes...there are financial benefits across all divisions, but nothing like everything in DI.

I've been trying to watch AG as much as possible. The guy has fire. I like it. Archie and BG both were animated on the sidelines but AG seems to be composed and ****ed off at the same time. His reactions to possessions is interesting to watch. He reacts as a coach who has instructed someone to do something 1000 times and they still fail to execute.

Everyone *****es and moans about continuity with the program. If AG performs, he is here for the long haul. He isn't going anywhere on his terms and isn't searching for greener pastures. He has been places. He has been around winning programs and professionals. He is the type of guy you want at the helm. Performance dictates tenure. I believe he will get there. If he does that, the sky is the limit for the program as UD hoops will have that long term guy here that produces. As stated before...if he is treading water in year 3...there are issues...hopefully that isn't the case.
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  #48  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
That's a good question. But let's correct one thing here, AG wasn't asked to sustain, all of us expected some regression, just not the regression we've gotten.
Just trying to understand here. What would have been acceptable regression given a team that starts two FR in the backcourt (in a guard oriented league), a guy with less than two full games of experience and a bench full of primarily FR? What were you hanging your hat on to be the team somewhere between an NCAA team and a sub .500 team?

Also, were you willing to adjust your expectations when XW was hurt and couldn't play earlier in the season? If you were then, are you willing to continue that adjustment when he doesn't see the court now--assuming AG knows more about WHY XW is not playing than you or or I do?
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  #49  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Pardon, but where did I project a JOB experience via AG?? You’ve drastically misunderstood something or have me very confused with someone else.

Please clarify or point to a post where you interpreted such. My thoughts re: AG are outlined in my previous post in this thread.
The quote I made was this:>>> Can I ask a question since you're all so sure AG will fail? What if AG surpasses what AM does here? Will you acknowledge you were wrong about judging him in his first season? Or will you just disappear and never post again. It's like someone else had mentioned....it's like you want to be right about AG being the wrong guy rather than just hope he's the right guy and has a very successful career....<<<
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
The quote I made was this:>>> Can I ask a question since you're all so sure AG will fail? What if AG surpasses what AM does here? Will you acknowledge you were wrong about judging him in his first season? Or will you just disappear and never post again. It's like someone else had mentioned....it's like you want to be right about AG being the wrong guy rather than just hope he's the right guy and has a very successful career....<<<
Again, still failing to find a connection and why a comment or question was directed to me?

I’ve not made a single post about AG being the wrong guy and I sure hope he’s the right guy. I’m not convinced he is. And I’m certainly not convinced he isn’t. Anyone who has already made up their mind is either rushing to judgement, has some intimate information the rest of us don’t or has access to shadow AG and his staff for 18+ hours a day and the pedigree to evaluate those observations.
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Again, still failing to find a connection and why a comment or question was directed to me?

I’ve not made a single post about AG being the wrong guy and I sure hope he’s the right guy. I’m not convinced he is. And I’m certainly not convinced he isn’t. Anyone who has already made up their mind is either rushing to judgement, has some intimate information the rest of us don’t or has access to shadow AG and his staff for 18+ hours a day and the pedigree to evaluate those observations.
You're right; i must have been tired when making some of those comments; OSUFlyer is who i probably meant. So after posing the question, I see that only you responded- and it was really meant for the "others" that continually harp, criticize and complain about AG. (UDScott, Smitty, etc..) - and i still notice no response from them
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:51 PM
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Pop Corn Sale

I love this thread and a few others that present the back & forth between some of you posters. Dealing with whether AG is/was/couldbe/maybe/isn't/shouldn't have been a great hire/coach .... then when we include AM in this discussion .... well let me tell you all ..... the Boy Scouts of America who have popcorn sales can start to thank you'al for these interesting back & forths .....


Only issue I have here is that I am continually running out of popcorn when I visit these threads!



Now if only you folks would start calling each other names now that would be really interesting.
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  #53  
Old 02-18-2018, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
About his recruits. He had a some swing and misses in just about every class. He had a star player die. He had more misses in one class than normal. That comes with territory of a program like UD which must gamble every year on recruiting.

If Archie could have recruited national championship caliber players at UD, he would still be the coach here. Period.
Agree he had some swings and misses, (see the Columbus knuckleheads), unfortunate luck (Big Steve). But he also seems to have given up recruiting on players (see Cohill) - and that is something that I do not get at all...

I don't see AG ever giving up on a recruit unless that said recruit tells him or the UD staff to "leave me alone, you have no shot".
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  #54  
Old 02-20-2018, 10:59 PM
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I'm back. They played hard. Just play hard. That's all I ask.
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