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12-11-2011, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shapanud
Xavier suspensions:
Tu Holloway 1 gm
Mark Lyons 2 gms
Landen Amos 4 gms
Dez Wells 4 gms
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For real? THAT'S IT?!?!
WHAT A F****** JOKE!!!!!!
Punk-a$$ Holloway starts the altercation that leads to the brawl, and he gets 1 game?
Punk-a$$ Lyons is the one whose jawing was inflaming the situation all game long, and he gets 2 games?
I guess _avier has sold its' soul to the dark side. If that's their idea of "just punishment", then count me among the Faithful who don't care if we follow them once the conference re-alignment is all said & done.
What a joke!
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12-11-2011, 04:24 PM
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Senior forward Yancy Gates, junior center Cheikh Mbodj and freshman forward Octavius Ellis all were suspended for six games. Freshman guard Ge'Lawn Guyn was suspended for one game.
The Gates and Mbodj suspensions will run concurrently with the mandated one-game NCAA suspension for getting ejected from the game.
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12-11-2011, 04:37 PM
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Beat me to it T-Bone......Halloway instigates the whole thing and he gets one game suspension? I hope the A-10 addresses this. Trash talking is one thing, Halloway's behavior is another.
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12-11-2011, 04:46 PM
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I'd imagine or at least hope there is a zero tolerance policy for all of them for the rest of the season.
Last edited by jumpin' joe; 12-11-2011 at 04:57 PM..
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12-11-2011, 04:54 PM
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I can understand your anger and frustration, but all amateur and professional sports pretty much follows the old saying...
"Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me"
You can mouth off all you want, but you can't attempt to physically harm another player. I'm not saying it's right. Just stating the way it is.
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12-11-2011, 05:01 PM
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Like I said earlier, I could care less what XU does with Holloway and Lyons. I am fine if they want their institution to be defined by that pair. I have not nor will I ever be ready to sell the things I hold dear for worldly success.
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12-11-2011, 05:11 PM
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Chris Mack the player committed the most unsportsmanlike plays I have personally witnessed on a basketball floor. Having said that I am not surprised by anything that guys playing for him might do.
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12-11-2011, 05:21 PM
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I think the NCAA and/or the conferences can now layer additional suspensions on these.
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12-11-2011, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Phinhead54
I think the NCAA and/or the conferences can now layer additional suspensions on these.
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I don't think they will. NCAA only mandates a one game suspension for throwing a punch
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12-11-2011, 05:41 PM
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A teachable moment?
....as President Obama might say.
Some years ago I was speaking with a person in the UD athletic department. The subject of successful UD peers came up, especially Xavier and Gonzaga. The UD guy said that he had a candid conversation once with a Gonzaga counterpart, who admitted that Gonzaga "had sold its soul to the devil",....was successful, but often regretful.
Xavier has enjoyed a high level of consistent success over a quite a few years. Enough years that Xavier is considered one of the country's premier BB programs. It's pretty easy to get used to that sort of thing....to grow dependent on it....to want to keep it, bad. We Priders know that we'd cut off an arm and a leg to be in X's lofty position (while retaining UD values).
Well, maybe, just maybe, Xavier has grown so accustomed to their BB success and the status, money and recognition that comes with it that they don't want to lose it. And, they may have learned that in order to "stay that way" one has to "negotiate just a bit with the devil"....as I once heard Gonzaga did (and may still be doing.)
Surely, Xavier has been recruiting better BB players than Dayton for quite some time...and just as surely, the character of those players is not in the same league with ours. Again, maybe, just maybe, there is a connection between the two. Some of the very best schools in the U.S. are comfortable recruiting players, FB and BB, that are in no way representative of the the schools themselves...but, wow!, can they run, jump, zig-zag and shoot, etc.
We all know that our beloved alma mater is not playing that game...hopefully never will.....but, not being willing to do so may explain, at least in part, why we have such a tough time being as good as we want to be.
Take a look down south.
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12-11-2011, 06:03 PM
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To be connected with Xavier or not
I understand the argument that some have over this incident with Xavier and UC that should we want to stick with them through conference realignment or not? I just don't know myself. On one hand this is an isolated incident(in the magnitude of the fight), with us having an isolated incident against Xavier in 2009 I believe(when RL punched the Xavier player at AC). However, with the prehand handshake snub at the Arena, the skirmish against Butler, and the complete arrogance of the situation by X, maybe this isn't just one incident.
With that being said isn't there a lot more to it than just men's bball as many are to point out about academics and history? We have played Xavier how many straight years? We are both Catholic universities, and do some fundraising during the rivalry(Drive 75). Plus look at other sports where this is the big game of the season, volleyball comes to mind as does the big victory over X at the arena on Valentine's Day 2008 in women's basketball. At what point does it really make a difference about one incident, especially if they move forward in a positive manner. Does anyone think that at the end of the day UCLA would stop playing USC in football because of the probation against USC? I know UCLA hates USC for stealing the city, but I'm sure they would love to do nothing more than beat them, though the same can be said for many schools. Same goes for Michigan-Ohio St. I don't think Michigan would give up its rivalry because of tatoo gate. I just hope that going forward there are no more instances of things like this out of X(especially against UD), because even though we haven't won down in Cincy in forever, nothing would be sweeter than to go down and do it this year and be able to celebrate without any skirmishes or blemishes on what would be a great and historic victory.
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12-11-2011, 06:07 PM
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RL didn't punch Holloway. He shoved him away after Holloway slapped the ball out of hands in a dead ball situation and drew a technical. He allowed himself to be baited by Holloway, that was the embarrassing part.
The thing I remember about Holloway was that he was the only XU player who refused to shake hands after the game when UD beat them at the arena. Showed himself to be a small person that day.
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12-11-2011, 06:09 PM
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This isn't just the players fault and I hope the Xavier coach receives a suspension. Can you imagine BG or Archie allowing a player to stand there bad mouthing the opposing team during a game? A lot of great players trash talk during the game because it can give you an edge. That is part of the game. But, trying to just **** another team off leads to bad things. And allowing your team to just **** off players to rub it in as the game is ending is a classless move by the coach just as much as it is by the players.
And did you see where Holloway was when things broke loose? He was standing behind everyone. A lot of times people who don't like to fight enjoy starting fights to watch others.
Last edited by UDBrian; 12-11-2011 at 06:23 PM..
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12-11-2011, 06:18 PM
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the coaching staff create the culture of the program (something Archie just praised BG for). The punkish behavior has been tolerated for a few of years but those who did not know it got a full demonstration of the mindset of XU basketball at the press conference. The coaching staff has allowed it, and might even have encouraged it. It's like the entire program is channeling Pedro.
Mack spoke after his players and if anything they said had bothered him he would have mentioned it. Instead he took no responsibility and punted. Leadership was completely absent. At some point this will not end pretty unless the culture is changed.
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12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
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I was embarrassed for Xavier University listening to their gangstas attempt to use the English language..... Our b ball players may not have the skills of our X counterparts, but at least they appear to be ready for college. How did Lyons and Holloway pass the SAT or ACT exam? I am a small business owner and neither of these guys would even qualify for an interview for an open position. They better make it in basketball because their future employment will be limited. How sad for Xavier!
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12-11-2011, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
RL didn't punch Holloway. He shoved him away after Holloway slapped the ball out of hands in a dead ball situation and drew a technical. He allowed himself to be baited by Holloway, that was the embarrassing part.
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Correct, RL did NOT punch Holloway. He didn't really shove him either. He kind of slapped at Holloway's arm and grazed his arm after Holloway slapped him. Holloway's slap at the ball which caught RL on the wrist/hand was harder. If Holloway's slap at RL was before the whistle it should have been a foul. If it was after the whistle it should have been a "T." But both slaps probably should have been "no-calls." And RL should have just walked away.
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12-11-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shapanud
Xavier suspensions:
Tu Holloway 1 gm
Mark Lyons 2 gms
Landen Amos 4 gms
Dez Wells 4 gms
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For yesterday's incident, this is about right. What I am really waiting to see is if they modify their behavior going forward or will it be the same poor sportsmanship that we have seen over the last couple of years?
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12-11-2011, 06:56 PM
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Cronin implied that the Big East might look at this differently than the A-10 in his post game interview. Did anyone else perceive his words in this way?
The disparity between UC and x is notable but this is not the final determination of the penalties, nor should it be. The fat lady has not sung on this.
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12-11-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by udx2
Cronin implied that the Big East might look at this differently than the A-10 in his post game interview. Did anyone else perceive his words in this way?
The disparity between UC and x is notable but this is not the final determination of the penalties, nor should it be. The fat lady has not sung on this.
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I may be stating the obvious but, Bernadette McGlade has no balls. I doubt very much that the conference is going to take any additonal action against the flagship men's basketball program,
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12-11-2011, 07:10 PM
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I was raised with a few reminders, "Keep your mouth shut and let your game do the talking", and, "if you are good enough other people will talk about you."
I grew up in a different era. Most kids these days are not raised this way.
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12-11-2011, 07:13 PM
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Neither conference is taking additional action. ESPN has already reported the Big East will not place any additional sanctions and this is from the A-10 webstite:
Dec. 11, 2011
CINCINNATI -- Xavier University Associate Vice President and Athletic Director Mike Bobinski announced today that four XU men’s basketball student-athletes will serve suspensions as a result of their parts in yesterday’s incidents at the Crosstown Shootout. Bobinski made the announcement on behalf of Xavier and the Atlantic 10 Conference.
Freshman Dezmine Wells, who had a mandatory one game suspension for being ejected from the game for fighting, has been given an additional three games by Xavier and will serve a four-game suspension. Sophomore Landen Amos has also been given a four-game suspension.
Junior Mark Lyons will serve a two-game suspension. Senior Tu Holloway will serve a one-game suspension.
“I have been working closely with Atlantic 10 Conference Commissioner Bernadette McGlade and the A-10 staff since yesterday afternoon,” said Bobinski. “We have all thoroughly reviewed the video evidence from a variety of sources. The Atlantic 10 fully supports our decisions on the suspensions announced today.
“We accept full responsibility for our part in the events that occurred at the end of our game yesterday. It was both embarrassing and disappointing and clearly did not reflect the standards of behavior we expect from our student-athletes. We resolve to do whatever is necessary to prevent an incident like this from occurring in the future. Additionally, we regret the poorly-chosen words our student-athletes used in the post-game press conference and have addressed the matter with them.”
“This was an unfortunate incident that occurred, and is not representative of the values within the Atlantic 10 Conference,” Commissioner Bernadette V. McGlade said. “The additional disciplinary actions taken by Xavier University are fully supported by the conference. In the long run they will help the student-athletes and Xavier University in maintaining the high standards we expect. These penalties reinforce Xavier’s and the Atlantic 10’s commitment to sportsmanship and accountability and the importance we place on the integrity of intercollegiate athletics.”
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12-11-2011, 07:25 PM
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What type of person do you think is going to be attracted to XU after the press comments?
What type of person is not going to be attracted?
XU allowed their institution to be defined by the comments made by Lyons and Holloway and did nothing yesterday to correct the perception they created. Trying to clean up the mess today is too late, the cat is out of the bag.
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12-11-2011, 07:26 PM
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Holloway deserves more than a one game suspension just for stupidity, and Chris Mack is a joke. And Frease gets nothing for going after the fan.
Last edited by longtimefan; 12-11-2011 at 07:28 PM..
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12-11-2011, 07:35 PM
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Told ya nothing would happen.
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12-11-2011, 07:35 PM
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You knew this was going to be a white wash for X. Huggins was removed from UC for thugery, Mack will get a pay raise. Both coaches should be suspended by their schools for permitting the players to act this way. Conferences and the NCAA have too much to lose if they get involved and discipline the schools. ADs should receive warnings.
You have just witnessed the end of college basketball as a real sport, welcome to the arena.
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12-11-2011, 07:36 PM
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Colonel
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Originally Posted by bobber
Told ya nothing would happen.
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yup, you are right.
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12-11-2011, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
I've lost my cool on the basketball court. I have been the recipient of technical fouls. I have also been involved or around a few fights in pickup games. I've been restrained by teammates who kept me from making a bad situation worse. I've thrown nasty elbows and done some things that I look back as really, really stupid!!! Tempers flare on the basketball courts. You need outside influence (coaches, referees and teammates to keep you under control). In pickup games, you don't have fans who urge you and push you more out of control, so those outside influences must be more assertive. Clearly, there was a failure by Mack, Cronin, referees and team leadership across the board. As well as maturity and self control by the players.
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You mention the key here....we may have had the lapses in judgement when a coaching staff wasn't around. If I pulled some of the crap I have in leagues and pickup games when I was playing organized ball, coaches would have had my butt. That's the real difference.
We joke now...I am pretty sure my winter league old man teams don't win the sportsmanship t-shirts every year for no T's...at least we keep it entertaining at the expense of 10 dollar an hour referees!!!!
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12-11-2011, 08:30 PM
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Why didn't Mack get suspended? He is the one who left the starters on the floor which started the chain reaction of events
Last edited by Tony T 71; 12-11-2011 at 08:38 PM..
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12-11-2011, 08:32 PM
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Lol Mack should be suspended for leaving his starters on the floor? That's hilarious.
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12-11-2011, 08:38 PM
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Mack and the end of the game
I asked before about this. Why,, when you are 21 points in a heated game, do you hace your starters still in? Just trying to get the last "slug" in? Rub their face in it? Make a statement? No matter, these guys should have never been in there. Mack is as big a thug as the rest of them and ought to be taken to task for not better managing the potential problem.
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12-11-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by vcmarsh
Lol Mack should be suspended for leaving his starters on the floor? That's hilarious.
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It's called winning with class which the musties have no clue about
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12-11-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NovaFlyer
Both coaches should be suspended by their schools for permitting the players to act this way.
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From what I saw on videos of the fight and comments in articles, I put a lot more blame on Mack than Cronin (who asked the refs repeatedly to stop the trash talking). It was X player Lyons who was trash talking before the game, during the national anthem, in the last possession of the 1st half, and toward the end of the game when he was mouthing off to the UC bench. After the fight started, the UC coaches were doing everything they could to get their players off the floor. X coaches were mostly watching.
The refs also need to be disciplined for allowing it to continue. In a rivalry this heated, that will only lead to a bad result.
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12-11-2011, 08:43 PM
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...and wasn't that future major league baseball player Dave Winfield stepping on that guys head? Never could stomach the sight of ole Dave after that......
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12-11-2011, 08:57 PM
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Mack should be reprimanded for lack of control. I would hope to see him hounded by the media for how he could let this happen and then shrug it off.
The suspensions are what they are. UC vs X has always been a dog/cat fight.
The main thing I want to see is true "zero tolerance" for this kind of thing out of X and UC (and all schools) from here on in. Possibly even a written policy in the NCAA rules that excessive taunting and over-aggressive trash talking will be a technical. And it should be treated with a "yellow card" for one offense, and then a "red card" for the second. The first a technical, the second an ejection or suspension. Totally at the decision of the ref. I know "excessive" and "over-aggressive" are judgement calls, but so is every call made by a ref.
One more thing I would like to say is about the rivalry UD fans are always promoting against X. I consider X as UD's main rival and I enjoy the "beat X" spirit etc., but look closely at the X/UC rivalry and take note of what happens when that gets pushed to the extreme. X and UC physically want to destroy eachother - blood and broken bones and ugly gang mentality. I hope UD fans are able to enjoy the sports rivalry without the "blood and guts and veins in my teeth" (Arlo Guthrie) attitude.
Let's be hungry for a win, but not hungry for physical violence.
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12-11-2011, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by VirgM
I asked before about this. Why,, when you are 21 points in a heated game, do you hace your starters still in? Just trying to get the last "slug" in? Rub their face in it? Make a statement? No matter, these guys should have never been in there. Mack is as big a thug as the rest of them and ought to be taken to task for not better managing the potential problem.
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Can someone please clarify what this being "disrespected" crap is really all about??
Are these guys really that insecure? Is what we witnessed some sort of defense of their manhood on their part?
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12-11-2011, 09:10 PM
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Other Rivalries are Clean
Originally Posted by tirebiter
Mack should be reprimanded for lack of control. I would hope to see him hounded by the media for how he could let this happen and then shrug it off.
The suspensions are what they are. UC vs X has always been a dog/cat fight.
The main thing I want to see is true "zero tolerance" for this kind of thing out of X and UC (and all schools) from here on in. Possibly even a written policy in the NCAA rules that excessive taunting and over-aggressive trash talking will be a technical. And it should be treated with a "yellow card" for one offense, and then a "red card" for the second. The first a technical, the second an ejection or suspension. Totally at the decision of the ref. I know "excessive" and "over-aggressive" are judgement calls, but so is every call made by a ref.
One more thing I would like to say is about the rivalry UD fans are always promoting against X. I consider X as UD's main rival and I enjoy the "beat X" spirit etc., but look closely at the X/UC rivalry and take note of what happens when that gets pushed to the extreme. X and UC physically want to destroy each other - blood and broken bones and ugly gang mentality. I hope UD fans are able to enjoy the sports rivalry without the "blood and guts and veins in my teeth" (Arlo Guthrie) attitude.
Let's be hungry for a win, but not hungry for physical violence.
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Many rivalries are heated without getting out of hand. The Ohio State Michigan rivalry is extremely intense every year but is always a clean football game. Rivalries can be clean and most of the time are...
Your warning is right. There are still ways to play the game, regardless of outcome.
I supported Archdeacon's column to get the players to shake hands. I thought the lack of handshake was the first step toward what happened Saturday.
I hope our students stay classy when X comes to the arena.
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12-11-2011, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
...and wasn't that future major league baseball player Dave Winfield stepping on that guys head? Never could stomach the sight of ole Dave after that......
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Luke Witte went to my high school (or vice versa) about 20 years before me. He's a minister now I believe.
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12-11-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Elwood
Can someone please clarify what this being "disrespected" crap is really all about??
Are these guys really that insecure? Is what we witnessed some sort of defense of their manhood on their part?
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You see, Bill, according to Tu, before the game someone on UC said "someone said something on Twitter about me not being good enough to start on their team, so they were disrespecting me."
Translation: a UC player hwurt hwis wittle feewings. He HAD to start a fight, he had no choice in the matter.
You see Bill, you and me have to deal with mortgages, raising children, saving for retirement, cancer, heart attacks, life insurance, health insurance, jerk coworkers, etc. But, you've never felt the wrath of someone on the other team saying you're not good enough to play for them. That's something that requires physical violence to settle--it's the only way.
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12-11-2011, 10:40 PM
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12-11-2011, 10:57 PM
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X Board
Guess the XU fans just don't get it either:
From their board:
"Don't get why Tu is being suspended but I'm ok with the other three and their length"
" Wow, seems about what I thought would happen. Thought they could go without suspending Holloway. The Oral Roberts game should be very interesting."
"I just don't think that stuff warrants a 1 game suspension"
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12-11-2011, 11:17 PM
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This video shows some more footage of the fight w/ additional video of Frease screaming at UC fans in the rows behind the UC bench.
http://www.fox19.com/category/195974...clipId=6537179
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12-11-2011, 11:23 PM
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This whole mess is unsurprising. You take a coach with no class, a bunch of players with no class, and you match them up against a heated rival (whose coach has way more class than I thought), add a poor job by the officials, a rowdy, classless crowd, and there you go.
So Terrell won't learn his lesson. Why should he? Nobody at his school has bothered to teach him anything about doing things the right way. Not that he's been shown any good examples, but still.
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12-11-2011, 11:26 PM
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Is anyone suprised that XU (and arguably UC) isn't doing anything real about this? Did you really expect Mack or XU's president to take actions that could possibly derail or upset their season? Please. If one thing has been proven time and time again, people, especially high up the food change, will not take any hard actions that could be against their self-interest. Has anyone been reading about the stuff going on in Happy Valley? I've never understood how those with the power (Paterno) to actually do something are so reluctant to do the right thing.
The entire city was embarrassed on national TV. Fights happen. But what set this apart was the aftermath - players on score tables inciting the crowd, Frease allegedly swiping at a female UC fan/coach's wife, the utter and complete nonsense coming out of players mouths reflecting the fact that their heads are so far up their a@@ they seem to have forgotten they play college basketball. Mack's complete lack of perspective. Even Sean Miller's supposed quote was hard to believe. Don't these idiots realize this is a game? Is basketball really worth suffering school wide humiliation?
Given the mild actions taken by both UC and XU, I really wish someone in the city would have the plums to get the proper authorities involved. The rivalry game certainly impacts the city's interest. Think about all the kids in the city who watched that debacle. All it would take is to have the prosecutors office subpoena the tapes. That would send an unbelievable message to both schools that if they aren't going to do the right thing, than the government is going step in for a course correction. Assault (felonious with the kicking on the ground), inciting a riot, etc etc etc. You wouldn't have to be all that creatitive to come up with some legit charges.
I don't think all the kids should be kicked off the team. But something more than a slap on the wrist should have happened. UC was better, but I don't think enough.
I wonder if the magic nun that XU fans are always droning on about also teaches the players how to be gangster.
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12-11-2011, 11:45 PM
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Just so those are aware, the guy from Cincy didn't stomp Frease on the face. He kicked Frease in the back as Frease crawled away.
Was it right? No. But the guy didn't curb stomp him, as some of you on page 2 seem to think. The guy got 6 games too.
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12-11-2011, 11:51 PM
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Pat Forde article on the mess:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...ensions_121111
X took a big image blow on this one.
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12-11-2011, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerAlum1
Just so those are aware, the guy from Cincy didn't stomp Frease on the face. He kicked Frease in the back as Frease crawled away.
Was it right? No. But the guy didn't curb stomp him, as some of you on page 2 seem to think. The guy got 6 games too.
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The image of Frease crawling away from the brawl on his hands and knees is one of the saddest images I was left with. I think Frease is often in the same boat with Holloway and Lyons in their misguided mind games, but it is still sad to see the sport come to that low level.
I started to lose my sympathy for him when he started lifting his hands in the air like he was celebrating something and walking around the court playing to the crowd with his bloody face. The whole thing just took so many bizarre turns.
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12-12-2011, 12:19 AM
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Well, Forde said it much better than I did, but I agree completely. I just stopped by the A-10 board and the XU fans are unsurprisingly delusional. Mack is great. XU is a great, respectable program. UD fans are just bias, etc etc etc.
One thing this whole incident has highlighted for me is that Mack certainly doesn't seem to have progressed all that far from the Wes Coffee incident. He followed up those 2 idiots in the press conference and seemed fine with everything. And that disclaimed all ability to make any changes (of course the XU fans are explaining this one away as well).
Honestly, how do people like Mack lose all sense of perspective and common sense? At least Cronin understood that the entire situation was a total clusterf***. Someone had to explain it to Mack. I honestly just don't get it.
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12-12-2011, 12:22 AM
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.....and another thing......
I think that this validates some of the criticism of X not shaking hands, etc before games. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal on the surface, but what message does it send to the players? "Competition outweighs common decency." I want you to win more than I want you to represent yourself and the school well. I think that the Xavier staff has been sending that message to their team for the last few years and it creates a negative culture that can grow into something that doesn't remotely resemble the mission of the university.
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12-12-2011, 12:25 AM
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The video of Frease going after the fans in the stands has conveniently been removed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF6fL2urgYQ
It will be interesting to see if charges were filed. If it was a coaches wife it may get swept under the rug to keep charges from being filed against Gates.
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12-12-2011, 09:18 AM
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Not bothered by how XU has handled this. Mack and his bunch showed their true colors and the how nation got to see it and then hear it. If XU wants to win that way and those kind of people I have no problem with that, it's their business. What I can say is that I hope that UD never sells its soul to win a few more games. The one thing that is obvious is that educating of young "men" has been lost.
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12-12-2011, 09:38 AM
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"how do people like Mack lose all sense of perspective and common sense?"
The problem is that I am not sure he ever had any in the first place. The better question is how to people like him get to a position where they get to influence young men in the first place. The poor sportsmanship problems with X didn't start with Mack but he certainly has done absolutely nothing to stem the tide and try to make them better men. They are a group of punks.
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12-12-2011, 09:43 AM
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Mack showed himself 20 years ago on the floor at UD Arena while playing for Evansville. Most unsportsmanlike behavior I have ever witnessed on a basketball floor came from Chris Mack. Doesn't matter if his coach told him to do it, it takes a thug to carry it out (twice no less). He obviously had no moral compass then and after his performance Saturday it seems he doesn't have one now.
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12-12-2011, 10:03 AM
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This problem is not unique to Xavier and Cincy. The NCAA has let certain coaches/programs turn their teams into a bunch of smack-talking ghetto rats. It's simply that now UC and Xavier are the poster boys for that kind of program. Their behavior on and off the court transcends any kind of civility, and has for years. I understand that every school wants to win. But if I were one of the many civil fans from those two schools, I would have withdrawn any and all support for the program long ago. To think that those inarticulate self-serving jackballs are representing me in that fashion would be just too much to handle.
Cincy and X, and their kind, are by and large the exception. By now is the time to take action and enforce a code of conduct on the basketball floor across the board. Or what happened Saturday will be a more frequent possibility.
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12-12-2011, 10:04 AM
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There are some gems in the press conferences...wow.
(paraphrased...)
X Media: Coach Mack, with the rules regarding leaving the bench during a fight, how is that going to affect fielding a team this week.
Coach Mack: Honestly, I do not know about all the rules. I know more about the NBA rules when they come out.
Coach Cronin: Very few of these players will make one dollar playing basketball.
Coach Cronin: Xavier has been a great school for years. We're trying to cure Cancer at Cincinnati. I go to school where they discovered the vaccine for polio and created Benedryl.
And everyone talking about Chris Mack with the Wes Coffee incident. At the beginning of the melee, it looked like Gates threw the ball at either Holloway or Wells.
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12-12-2011, 10:11 AM
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In football, taunting is a penalty. In basketball, it is called trash talking and it is accepted.
I don't get it.
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12-12-2011, 10:30 AM
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The brawling not thr worst of it....
Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer
This problem is not unique to Xavier and Cincy. The NCAA has let certain coaches/programs turn their teams into a bunch of smack-talking ghetto rats. It's simply that now UC and Xavier are the poster boys for that kind of program. Their behavior on and off the court transcends any kind of civility, and has for years. I understand that every school wants to win. But if I were one of the many civil fans from those two schools, I would have withdrawn any and all support for the program long ago. To think that those inarticulate self-serving jackballs are representing me in that fashion would be just too much to handle.
Cincy and X, and their kind, are by and large the exception. By now is the time to take action and enforce a code of conduct on the basketball floor across the board. Or what happened Saturday will be a more frequent possibility.
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The melee was bad enough. But, in my opinion, what stings X (and college athletics) the most is the impression created by the players manner of speaking and remarks during their encounter with the press. Comments by the X AD suggest to me that they are more than a little embarrassed by the image of their "student athletes". A friend of mine remarked that it's hard to imagine that those guys ever went to any school, much less college.
Has Dayton ever had players that would create such a poor impression if a mic was ever stuck in front of their face? Fortunately, players don't usually experience that. But would any of our guys, past and present, ever come off like that? I surely hope not.
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12-12-2011, 10:35 AM
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Just heard that Joe Deters, Hamilton County prosecuter is considering criminal charges related to the fight:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ftermath.0182/
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12-12-2011, 10:45 AM
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Deters went to UC for undergrad and Law School....hmmmmm
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12-12-2011, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Comments by the X AD suggest to me that they are more than a little embarrassed by the image of their "student athletes". A friend of mine remarked that it's hard to imagine that those guys ever went to any school, much less college.
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XU made the decision to send those two out to the press conference. They didn't have to send any players out there. They should have known (and likely did) what kind of impression they were likely to leave. XU made the decision to let them be the face of the program after the brawl. Then after "the pair" had finished XU still had a chance for the coach or someone else to step up and attempt to change the perception that had been created. Instead no one made any attempt to do that, it seems to me that those in charge for XU on Saturday knew what they were doing and didn't have a problem with the image that was on display.
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12-12-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
The melee was bad enough. But, in my opinion, what stings X (and college athletics) the most is the impression created by the players manner of speaking and remarks during their encounter with the press. Comments by the X AD suggest to me that they are more than a little embarrassed by the image of their "student athletes". A friend of mine remarked that it's hard to imagine that those guys ever went to any school, much less college.
Has Dayton ever had players that would create such a poor impression if a mic was ever stuck in front of their face? Fortunately, players don't usually experience that. But would any of our guys, past and present, ever come off like that? I surely hope not.
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While I agree that Holloway and Lyons were an epic fail at the press conference (we was disrespected!), I wouldn't judge an inner city kid (or any kid, for that matter) by how they come off in the glare of the media spotlight
Public speaking is not everyone's cup of tea, and while it is a skill that can serve you well in your lifetime, I would hesitate to use it as a measure of intellect.
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12-12-2011, 10:58 AM
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Post Game Interview
The worst-handled part of this whole situation to me was the post-game interview. How can you allow your players to get on the microphone in front of the whole country and say that their lockerroom is full of "gangstas"? Lyons then responds with "Where we're from" type comments like the whole team is a street gang from the projects. Unbelievable that Chris Mack didn't cool them down before the interview. This is embarrassing for the A-10, although pretty much everyone knew how classless Xavier and UC were already.
That being said, I wonder how our team would fair in a fight with either of these teams? I could see Kav matching up well with Frease, and I think CJ could take Tu...
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12-12-2011, 11:01 AM
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If any of those "kids" had done what they did outside on the street . . . they'd be looking at two to five years in prison.
I mean how can you commit assault on national tv and walk away from it with a (1,2 or 4 game) suspension.
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12-12-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by UD Flyer for life
Unbelievable that Chris Mack didn't cool them down before the interview.
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they didn't seem upset at all during the interview. They just happened to reveal who they were. Since Mack sent them out and then did nothing to change the perception "the pair" left behind leads me to believe he had no problem with what they said or how they represented Xavier.
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12-12-2011, 11:57 AM
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I guess it's mostly my fault. With thirty seconds to go, X had what appeared to be a breakaway layup and decided to pull the ball out and run the shot clock down. I was watching with a group of friends and at that point said "Well, no major incidents this year." So, it's my fault. Up to that point there really hadn't been a hard foul, and the only technical was an administrative T on Chris Mack after the goaltending call.
My biggest gripe, even moreso than the incident itself, is how avoidable the whole thing was. What the UC player (forget his name) said on the radio about Halloway was ridiculous, but he didn't really do anything wrong. He just did something ridiculous.
Apparently Halloway got so worked up about it, that he wouldn't stop jawing about it to anyone within earshot. Honestly, if someone calls you out on the radio, I can understand giving it to them a little bit, but being up by 20+ AND talking trash the whole game anyone and everone including the assistant coaches on the bench is more than "a little bit." I can't believe that the refs didn't T him up, or for that matter even warn him. If they do, it most likely stops. If it doesn't stop, then he gets another T and he's out of the game. Either way, it stops.
Okay, when you're ranked 8th and up by 23 against your rival, and are basically on the brink of being one of the major stories and talking points in all of college basketball, what could possibly make you so mad in that situation that you blow your lid and start fighting?? I can understand why Wells shoved him. If the guy had his hands on Halloway's face, I think it is somewhat instinctive. That's not to say it's okay, but it is understandable, but still, if you don't shove him, none of this happens. If the guy doesn't put his hands on Tu's face, none of this happens. If Cronin is granted the timeout, which he was on the floor trying to call, none of this happens.
Then the brawl breaks out. Yancy Gates absolutely decks Kenny Frease. In that situaiton, it's all instinctive and people have no self control, which is evident by the fact that Frease and Gates had absolutely nothing to do with what started it, and didn't appear to be at all tied up with one another prior to that. I guess they don't like each other and haven't since AAU days, but neither of them were at the center of what started the fight. I've seen a handful of sports brawls, and it seems like that is always the case. They call it losing your temper for a reason, I guess, but most of the time the people that get hurt the worst and/or punished the most weren't even at the center of things in the first place.
So, it happened. I don't think XU could have possibly done a more thorough job of taking a bad situation and making it infinitely worse. If a fight breaks out on the playground or in open gym or in a summer league game, it really isn't that big of a deal. You're out there playing the next day, or sometimes in the next game an hour later, like nothing happened. I know these guys probably play a lot of pick-up games like that, but that's not what this was. I don't think ANYONE from Xavier fully understood that. UC, despite being the team that instigated the violence, said and did all the right things and seemed to have a solid concept that this happened on national television in a high profile game. XU decides to make Lyons and Halloway available to the media. I know that 98% of the time the schools make available to the media whoever they request, but 98% of the time there isn't a fight like this. This is a time to where maintaining an open relationship with the press CLEARLY should have taken a backseat. Now, two players have given sportstalk radio everywhere fifteen minutes of soundbyte after soundbyte. Nicely done. I think had UC's players been made available to the media, they would have said similar things, but they weren't, and that was smart.
Well, XU wanted to be a national story this year, and now they are. Had they just waited nine more seconds and done one of a mulititude of things that could have avoided this, they would have been a national story for all the reasons they want to be. I live in Alabama. Alabama is in the national championship game for football and the basketball team is nationally ranked. The top story on talk radio this morning was thugs and gangstas.
I'm to the point to where college athletics never surprises me. It could come out tomorrow that Harvard was falsfying test scores and all the players had failed drug tests, and it wouldn't floor me too much. When you work with college students in any sort of capacity, be it athletics or student affairs or whatever, Monday mornings are always interesting. Having said that, it never surprises me, but it always amazes me. I came to the conclusion long ago that I'm not in a position to be judgmental toward anyone's character. Many people do many stupid things, and if the stupid things I've done throughout life were to be broadcast on ESPN, I'd look every bit as bad as some of the athletes who get run through the ringer. Having said that, whether people think it's fair or not, that's the way it is. I don't know Halloway or Lyons and will probably never meet them, so I can't say what kind of people they are. What I can say is that they made themselves look stupid on ESPN.
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12-12-2011, 11:58 AM
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IMO it's probably more a lack of "adult supervision" than anything else that resulted in the fiasco in the Crosstown Shootout (nice moniker, by the way.) Neither X nor UC has a sterling reputation when it comes to behavior on the court or sportsmanship in general. What was very telling (IMO) was Mack's reaction to the "incident" when he said he wasn't in a position to make decisions...how can a Coach even utter something so inane and irresponsible. I've got no problems with the suspensions meted out to the players involved (that, to me, is an institutional matter that speaks volumes about each school's priorities and values), but I do find it troubling how Mack handled the situation, from keeping his starters on the floor at the end of the game (which should have been "mop-up" time for the subs) to his post game weasel words. I understand the need for good teams to have something of a "chip" on their collective shoulders, especially on the road or in rivalry games, but the actions and attitudes of 18-22 year-olds have to be controlled and emotions reined in by coaches to keep things from getting out of hand. When coaches, who should have a pretty good finger on the pulse their team's attitude, let it go unchecked, you can get a situation that can quickly spin out of control like the one that unfolded in Cinci.
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12-12-2011, 11:59 AM
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Had Mack verbally and physically undressed his players in the same manner that Cronin did, they would not have been talking trash during the post-game press conference. Players don't talk $hit after getting chewed out...they typically hang their head and speak softly.
There's no doubt in my mind that Mack was chest-bumping and high-fisting each and every one of his players in the locker room...it's the only way to explain the press conference.
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12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd
.....and another thing......
I think that this validates some of the criticism of X not shaking hands, etc before games. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal on the surface, but what message does it send to the players? "Competition outweighs common decency." I want you to win more than I want you to represent yourself and the school well. I think that the Xavier staff has been sending that message to their team for the last few years and it creates a negative culture that can grow into something that doesn't remotely resemble the mission of the university.
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Totally agree, it sends the wrong message. I've complained about the hand shaking thing in the past, that sends the message that your opponent is sort of like the enemy, and that this game is sort of like a war.
I complained on this board about the no hand shaking thing by X and UD before the X vs. UD games, and I was pooh-poohed for that complaint by several posters on this board who said that shaking hands before the game isn't necessary and is overblown.
And last year in the Crosstown Shootout, Holloway threw 2 punches at UC players after Holloway was fouled driving to the basket. Holloway didn't land either punch. And Mack didn't even take Holloway out of the game if only for just a minute to let Holloway cool his jets. That sends the wrong message. If you ever throw a punch, you should come out of the game for a little bit no matter what. I've also complained about this issue before too.
Last edited by ud2; 12-12-2011 at 12:22 PM..
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12-12-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew
I'm to the point to where college athletics never surprises me. It could come out tomorrow that Harvard was falsfying test scores and all the players had failed drug tests, and it wouldn't floor me too much. When you work with college students in any sort of capacity, be it athletics or student affairs or whatever, Monday mornings are always interesting. Having said that, it never surprises me, but it always amazes me.
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No question about that xubrew. This year especially. Who would have thought that Paterno - Paterno! - would play ostrich with the whole Sandusky situation. You know stuff gets covered up all the time. But a serial child molestor gets cover from Paterno and the entire PSU organization? Are you kidding me? All for an old man's "legacy"? And not to mention the stuff at Ohio State, Penn State, Miami U, Syracuse, AAU, and the list goes on.... Leader of men my a@@.
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12-12-2011, 12:30 PM
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what happened on the XU side was a complete failure of leadership. No one was there so Lyons and Holloway stepped into the void. I for one, after having seen what Mack did twice to Wes Coffee, hold the XU coach in very low esteem. I am not surprised by his seeming inability to understand the gravity of the situation and respond appropriately. He utterly failed 20 years ago on the floor and in the locker room after drilling Coffee and did so again on Saturday. The behavior of guys like Holloway and Lyons has been building to this moment, it was coming and no one in a position of leadership did anything to deflect the path before it exploded.
Is the leadership at XU bothered by the public perception left behind by "the pair" on Saturday?
I honestly have no idea about the answer to that question. Suspensions have nothing to do with it. The issue is will the on court behavior change in the days and months ahead?
The comments by XuBrew highlight and put an exclamation point on the complete failure of leadership. The Xavier coach had multiple opportunities at late as 1 minute left in the game to head off the situation, however, rather than doing that he seems to have encouraged it.
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12-12-2011, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
There's no doubt in my mind that Mack was chest-bumping and high-fisting each and every one of his players in the locker room...it's the only way to explain the press conference.
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exactly.
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12-12-2011, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2
I complained on this board about the no hand shaking thing by X and UD before the X vs. UD games, and I was pooh-poohed for that complaint by several posters on this board who said that shaking hands before the game isn't necessary and is overblown.
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it wasn't that they didn't shake hands that was the problem, it was the WAY it was done. The UD players had an expectation and were ready to shake hands, the XU players threw it in their face by taking a few steps toward them and they heading for their bench.
The behavior of Holloway that showed who he really was is that he was the only XU player that DID NOT shake hands with the UD players after the Flyers thumped them at the arena two years ago.
He is obviously a smart guy and is good at baiting opponents (Like Guyn on Saturday and RL in Atlantic City).
I for one will be surprised if he changes his attitude of behavior at all.
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12-12-2011, 12:46 PM
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It looks like Tu Tu did more than jaw. From this angle, it looks like he is the one that initiated physical contact by slapping (albeit lightly) the UC guy in the face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz23t5K9D9E
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12-12-2011, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
it wasn't that they didn't shake hands that was the problem, it was the WAY it was done. The UD players had an expectation and were ready to shake hands, the XU players threw it in their face by taking a few steps toward them and they heading for their bench.
The behavior of Holloway that showed who he really was is that he was the only XU player that DID NOT shake hands with the UD players after the Flyers thumped them at the arena two years ago.
He is obviously a smart guy and is good at baiting opponents (Like Guyn on Saturday and RL in Atlantic City).
I for one will be surprised if he changes his attitude of behavior at all.
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I agree that Holloway is a punk at times. At various points in time over the last several years, David West, Holloway, Lyons, and Jordan Crawford all skipped the pre-game handshakes. And they did this regularly. They did vs. UD and vs. teams other than UD.
But, again, there were posters on this board last year that pooh-poohed the pre-game handshake, saying that it wasn't important and was overblown.
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12-12-2011, 12:53 PM
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At the end of the day, this type of behavior will catch up with these folks. Players with an attitude like Holloway have a good chance of ending up in jail. Coaches like Mack will generally screw up big time because they have no character probably leading to a firing or worse. The truly sad thing is that neither one of them can or will see it coming.... It is part of their DNA and they are both going to come crashing down in the future. Eventually, it will catch up with both of these proud representatives of Xavier University. I do hope that UD and AM have taken note of the culture at Xavier and recommitted to never going there. Once you get caught up in "winning" it is easy to begin looking the other way. I am sad that a fellow Catholic university let this happen and has done little to correct the problem in the future. In fact, I find it sad that the Xavier community as a whole, students, alumni, professors, indeed any stakeholder in that school, also seem to be doing virtually nothing to correct the situation. It sure tells me a great deal about the quality of individual associated with that school. As has been said many times in this thread and elsewhere, it sure is good to be a Flyer!!!!!
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12-12-2011, 01:00 PM
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Bobinski and Mack Bring Shame to College Hoops
My biggest concern with the hiring of Chris Mack as Xavier's head basketball coach was his experience as a player at Evansville under the infamous Jim Crews. We saw his character on full display when he inbounded the ball off of a UD player's face in the heat of battle back in the Midwestern Cities league days. When he was appointed as head coach at Xavier I thought it was a mistake because the adage is "A basketball team reflects the personality of it's head coach". My feeling was then and is now that Xavier's reputation will take a big negative hit with Mack at the helm. Sure enough, his "hand off" approach has developed a culture where the "gangsa" mentality is encouraged in order to give his charges the edge. Xavier orchestrated the Battle at the Crosstown Shootout courtesy of the mouths of Lyons and Holloway. Xavier's response to the event was weak and probably ineffective. Meanwhile Xavier university will suffer the consequences of ridicule and questioning by the national media. Until the managers (whomever they may be)of the Xavier
brand decide that the inmates will not run the asylum and the grown-ups will be in charge
the Xavier Musketeers will continue to embarass the university, the A-10 conference and the NCAA.
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12-12-2011, 01:01 PM
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Outside of this MB I've heard nothing about the officials being suspended. It's inexcusable that whoever is in charge of officials has not berated the officials.
If the officials call a few T's earlier in the half, it might have unduly influenced the outcome of the game. Maybe a key player or 2 gets another T at a key point and gets tossed. And now we are forced to witness in gory detail why the outcome of the game DOES NOT MATTER. For an official, the safety of the participants and crowd is paramount to all else and I think the officials forgot that.
A riot of 10K people (9K vs. 1K) literally almost broke out because the officials didn't want to get too involved in the game.
P.S. Mack is classless, I previously dismissed "Evansville judgment" as youthful stupidity, instead it is now confirmation of character.
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12-12-2011, 01:06 PM
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"UC, despite being the team that instigated the violence, said and did all the right things and seemed to have a solid concept that this happened on national television in a high profile game."
Holloway and Wells were the instigators. Wells started the violence with the push and if Holloway keeps his mouth shut the fight never happens. How much blame does Chris Mack get for keeping his starters on the floor up 23 points in the final seconds? Xavier may have just traded places with UC as THUG U. Yeah, you guys are GANSTA alright. What a joke.
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12-12-2011, 01:12 PM
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Even though Holloway and Lyons weren't PR geniuses in the post-game, the ADULTS that get paid to manage the media fiasco after the fact should be hung.
You have an SID and PR department for a reason. They are also to advise the coach, staff, president, etc...on how to handle themselves and conduct themselves on camera and with the media. For them to put two involved players in front, is the fault of the paid professionals whose job it is to protect the face of their university.
Perhaps a 24 hour "Intro to Dealing with the Media" class is in order.
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12-12-2011, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Outside of this MB I've heard nothing about the officials being suspended. It's inexcusable that whoever is in charge of officials has not berated the officials.
If the officials call a few T's earlier in the half, it might have unduly influenced the outcome of the game. Maybe a key player or 2 gets another T at a key point and gets tossed. And now we are forced to witness in gory detail why the outcome of the game DOES NOT MATTER. For an official, the safety of the participants and crowd is paramount to all else and I think the officials forgot that.
A riot of 10K people (9K vs. 1K) literally almost broke out because the officials didn't want to get too involved in the game.
P.S. Mack is classless, I previously dismissed "Evansville judgment" as youthful stupidity, instead it is now confirmation of character.
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The officials are never made available to the media. If it is dealt with, it won't be made public.
Originally Posted by Gem City
Holloway and Wells were the instigaters. Wells started the violence with the push and if Holloway keeps his mouth shut the fight never happens. How much blame does Chris Mack get for keeping his starters on the floor up 23 points in the final seconds? Xavier may have just traded places with UC as THUG U. Yeah, you guys are GANSTA alright. What a joke.
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I didn't notice it at first, but the guy Wells shoved put his hands on Halloway's face and pushed him. It wasn't that noticeable, but that was the initial physical altercation.
I'm not making any excuses, but I'm not going to be dismissive of any of the facts either. The shove from Wells clearly provoked the brawl, but the hands to the face provoked the shove. Up until that point it wasn't physical. It actually hadn't been an ugly game either. If just one of those things doesn't happen, the brawl doesn't happen. There were multiple things before that could have also prevented it.
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12-12-2011, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by singlet_of_truth
It looks like Tu Tu did more than jaw. From this angle, it looks like he is the one that initiated physical contact by slapping (albeit lightly) the UC guy in the face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz23t5K9D9E
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Class all the way around.
So TuTu jaws in the guys face, smacks him in the face, another _avier guy levels the guy with a push to the chest. . . but it was UC that started the violence? _avier logic, got it.
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12-12-2011, 01:20 PM
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Been listening to WLW when I haven't been in meetings today.
Egger was on this morning, and said the whole thing had no place in the world of college basketball. Between Noon & 12:30, Broo was on with Cunningham, rightfully denouncing all who were directly involved with the situation. Then between 12:30 & 1:00, Larkin came on.
He's obviously a distributor of much of the Kool-Aid that X apologists have been drinking. Many of his comments re Holloway, Lyons, & Mack are simply laughable. Among them:
-He said Holloway's a good kid and a smart kid (yeah, most "gangstas" are ); and
-He said he didn't know whether Mack was aware of all of Lyons' jawing (yeah, he only spends 20 hours a week with him, 5 months a year - how would he know what the kid is like?).
He did say that the language used by the X students after the melee could be found in a lot of arenas (and when I was a student at UD, I chanted my share of "F You XU", and "You can't spell 'suck' without UC"), so I will agree with him on some of the points. But to say that Mack didn't know what Lyons was up to? If he didn't, then that just goes to prove he has no control over his players. And if he did, then that just goes to prove the measure of the man (which wouldn't be much, at that point).
Willie's still going on, and it's worth listening to. A voice of reason, at this point...
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12-12-2011, 01:22 PM
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Byron Larkin was just on WLW saying what a nice, smart kid TU is, and of course he did nothing wrong. WTF Larkin!
Is there a taunting rule in College Basketball or not????
You can get a TD nullified for raising your arms in College FB!!!
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12-12-2011, 01:34 PM
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On the lighter side, I can't wait for the "Separated at Birth" threads.
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12-12-2011, 01:37 PM
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Did you know that the lead official for the XU-UC game worked the UD game yesterday?
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12-12-2011, 01:41 PM
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XU-I think you better go back and review the tape that singlet cited. Holloway puts his hand in the UC player's face first and then the UC player does the same which leads to Wells' shove. IMO the taunting and postgame remarks should have landed Tu and Lyons with at least 4 games apiece-and I do believe gates should receive 10 games.
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12-12-2011, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe
Did you know that the lead official for the XU-UC game worked the UD game yesterday?
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We noticed that during the game. Does anyone know his name?
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12-12-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew
The officials are never made available to the media. If it is dealt with, it won't be made public.
I didn't notice it at first, but the guy Wells shoved put his hands on Halloway's face and pushed him. It wasn't that noticeable, but that was the initial physical altercation.
I'm not making any excuses, but I'm not going to be dismissive of any of the facts either. The shove from Wells clearly provoked the brawl, but the hands to the face provoked the shove. Up until that point it wasn't physical. It actually hadn't been an ugly game either. If just one of those things doesn't happen, the brawl doesn't happen. There were multiple things before that could have also prevented it.
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Brew...take a look at the first 10 seconds or so of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz23t5K9D9E It sure looks to me like Holloway raised his hand to the UC players face first. Holloway's suspension of one game is laughable in view of his involvement in the leadup to the incident, initiating the incident itself, and his post game comments
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12-12-2011, 02:00 PM
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Something that many may have missed, and what bothers me the most (I'm not really surprised the brawl happened as the true colors of both teams have finally came out), is a quote from Sean Miller:
“I’m proud of those guys and I would fully expect for them to be in a fight.” ( via Arizona Daily Wildcat)
I would care less if Archie wasn't his kid brother. I just hope that this is something that they will differ on. IMO, it's just adds fuel to the fire and is something pretty inappropriate for SM to say. Please Archie, tell us you do not agree with this warped thinking.
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12-12-2011, 02:04 PM
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At a minimum, Chris Mack should be suspended indefinately for what took place beginning at about the 3:20 mark on the video. When the X players made their way to the the student section, stood on UC bench/chairs and began thumping their chests. That's also when Frease got into a verbal confrontation with UC fans who were sitting behind the UC bench. My understanding (from X grad sitting across the court) is that Frease confronted a "middle-aged female" and got into a shouting match with her, to the point were they had to be separated by bystanders.
Mack did not prevent the players from staying on the court, allowing this to occur. Same goes for the postgame presser, and we all know how that turned into a good idea.
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12-12-2011, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
P.S. Mack is classless, I previously dismissed "Evansville judgment" as youthful stupidity, instead it is now confirmation of character.
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I think the most interesting thing is years later he still never accepted his guilt, instead he hid behind Jim Crews.
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12-12-2011, 02:12 PM
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And he should ... and I hope their jail time starts right after their game suspensions are over.
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12-12-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Class all the way around.
So TuTu jaws in the guys face, smacks him in the face, another _avier guy levels the guy with a push to the chest. . . but it was UC that started the violence? _avier logic, got it.
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just a symptom of society at large, no one wants to be accountable for their actions. Without a doubt, Holloway and Lyons were the instigators of the brawl.
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12-12-2011, 02:15 PM
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indicting a number of players might actually discourage those kind of actions in the future. To this point none of the punishment is likely to have a deterrent effect.
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12-12-2011, 02:16 PM
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I didn't read all of this thread, so my apologies if someone covered this. But I want to take a different approach to what I have read as to why I'm very disappointed in Xavier's handling of the situation.
Xavier, like UD, is a Catholic institution. Thus, when it comes to things like this, I hold them to higher standards. I expect them to hold their players and students to higher standards. Is this unfair of me? if so, so be it, but I expect people and instituitions representing Catholic/Christian values to have and enforce higher standards.
Christian faith teaches "turn the other cheek". Holloway went off on being "disrespected", "the game is about elbows flying and ejections", and "we're gangstas" and being men who must stand up for themselves and fight.
Are not Holloway's comments about as unchristian as it gets? If he is at a public university, I'm actually OK with his one game suspension. However, he is not. He represents a Catholic university. He should not be allowed to represent his Catholic/Christian university in such an uncatholic, unchristian way.
I'm highly disappointed in Xavier's administration. In my opinion, Xavier should have stepped up and said something to the affect that "we are a Catholic institution and we expect our students and athletes to reflect such. Some of our players failed miserably in this regard. In the case of Tu Holloway, he will be suspended N number of games, which is made up of 1 game for being a main instigator of the brawl and R more games for his unchristian like behavior and comments, which reflect badly on the university and the christian faith as a whole and showed he has a complete lack of understanding of what it is to be a Christian".
Am I wrong in this? Possibly. Am I being "holier than thou"? Again, possibly, maybe even probably. I'm simply one person sharing his single viewpoint. If others disagree with me, that is OK. But this is how I feel. I believe Pat Forde was right, if BYU holds their students to certain standards and sticks to them, why can't other institutions?
I hope this never happens with a Dayton team. if it does, I hope the UD administration steps up and hands out stronger penalties than X did.
Note: I'm not a typical UD fan that is an X hater. 2 of my best friends graduated from X. I actually live in Norwood. I've gone to X games and rooted for X (don't worry, never rooted for them against UD, I'm Flyer through and through in that). I like and respect X, normally. My point in saying this is to point out that my comments are not an attempt to "stick it to Xavier". My reaction is strictly that I feel private institutions (especially religious ones such as Catholic universities) should hold themselves and their representatives to a higher standard, and I feel Xavier failed in doing so in this case.
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12-12-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar
At a minimum, Chris Mack should be suspended indefinately for what took place beginning at about the 3:20 mark on the video. When the X players made their way to the the student section, stood on UC bench/chairs and began thumping their chests. That's also when Frease got into a verbal confrontation with UC fans who were sitting behind the UC bench. My understanding (from X grad sitting across the court) is that Frease confronted a "middle-aged female" and got into a shouting match with her, to the point were they had to be separated by bystanders.
Mack did not prevent the players from staying on the court, allowing this to occur. Same goes for the postgame presser, and we all know how that turned into a good idea.
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Yes, the lady was an X fan and yelled out to him "act like you play for Xavier" and that POS went off on her..
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12-12-2011, 02:32 PM
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I'm really torn on the Holloway suspension. Just because his trash talk was part of the fuse that triggered this melee, does that require a stiff(er) penalty? Should that get any penalty at all? It doesn't appear that he did much of anything (other than get away and jump up on the scorer's table to pound his chest) once it escalated to a physical altercation. He didn't do anything during the game that warranted an in-game penalty (like a technical foul) by the officials, although their lack of action/control can certainly be questioned.
My thought is this. If absolutely nothing happened after he and #14 went nose-to-nose trash talking, other than them being separated, the game ends 9 seconds later and everyone quietly heads to the locker room - should Tu have been suspended then? Absolutely not and it wouldn't even be a topic of discussion, in my opinion. However, since his trash talk ignited a player(s) to make a very poor decision, one that the majority of players would have reacted differently to, and become physically abusive and assaultive, Tu should get a stiffer penalty? If it weren't for that debacle of a presser he and Lyons gave, you could make an agrument Tu shouldn't have gotten any suspension.
And as far Tu not being "involved" in any of the physical part of the brawl, there was a poster earlier in this thread that questioned his loyalty to teammates or his toughness because he got away from the fighting - said it was a "puss" move. Can't really have it both ways - condemn the guys fighting and refer to someone getting out of it as a puss. Even if it was to celebrate on top of the scorer's table.
Note: This is not necessarily my stance on the situation, but rather some thoughts I have as I attempt to determine in my own mind what's appropriate and fair. The trash talking during the game was way too excessive and is not a style of play/demeanor that I typically endear myself to. That being said, both the officials and Xavier's staff allowed it. If it was deemed acceptable during the game by the rules of the officials and the behavioral guidelines of the team, then why should Tu be punished/suspended after the fact?
Mack certainly shoulders a lot of the blame for their behavior. And it's nice of him to take the bullet for the press conference, although where in the heck is the SID during this trainwreck?
Essentially, it appears Tu got his suspension more for his actions and comments after the game, and understandably so, given how insensitive and ignorant they were. But that being said, he's essentially getting a one game suspension for making stupid comments at a presser. Some could argue even that's too harsh. Having typed all this - I think I'm rationalizing that the one game suspension is a fair punishment.
Punishments aside, Lyons and Holloway have always conducted themselves poorly as it relates to the trash talk and overall on-court demeanor. Mack has allowed it and it clearly has penetrated to the other Xavier players as they all seem to partake in moments of self-exultation, showboating and acts of borderline unsportsmanlike behavior.
Time will tell if this incident will serve as a wake-up call and an overall change in team attitude/behavior or if they're just looking to "get past" it and learn nothing from it.
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12-12-2011, 02:40 PM
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Crasch...I agree with everything you said. However, the more I think about it I am not that surprised that X went as lenient as it possibly could. I remember an incident that happened at one of the most prominent high school girls programs in the Pittsburgh area about 8 years or so ago (a catholic high school). Four starters were involved in an underage drinking bust in which the Pittsburgh Police were called just before the post season playoffs were about to begin. They all received a one game suspension (they were the one seed playing against the sixteen if I recall correctly) but were back in time for the next tough opponent. So, overlooking bad stuff happens even at the high school level at Catholic institutions and to think it wouldn't happen at a major Catholic bball program is probably wishful thinking.
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12-12-2011, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum
Brew...take a look at the first 10 seconds or so of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz23t5K9D9E It sure looks to me like Holloway raised his hand to the UC players face first. Holloway's suspension of one game is laughable in view of his involvement in the leadup to the incident, inititaing the incident itself, and his post game comments
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Here's a different angle. Take a look at about the 2:18 mark. #14 takes his right hand and pushes Halloway in the face, and it sure as hell looks like Halloway's hands are down. You don't see that on the angle of the one you provided.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRyg0vcnq6U
Ultimately, I don't think it matters much, at least not to me. I don't think XU or UC is any more or less guilty because in the whole grand scheme of things, it's miniscule. It doesn't play a major role in how I feel about this. Tu clearly turned and starting jawing in the guy's face, and I can understand completely how he wanted to knock him out of his face. It looks to me that was when it first became physical. That's not the same as saying that's when it first got out of control, or when it first should have been stopped.
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12-12-2011, 02:45 PM
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...?sct=cb_t11_a0
BTW, Davis squarely blames the brawl on Holloway.
Its hard to believe a coach could be any more clueless. Even then it was all about damage control. It's like it never crossed their minds that what was done was wrong.
"Holloway, of course, was far from the only player who was in the wrong on Saturday. But while the fight was reprehensible, indefensible and inexcusable, it was, on some level, understandable. These were kids behaving badly because they lost their heads in the heat of the moment. Yet, when Holloway and Lyons walked into that interview room, they were not in the heat of the moment. They were speaking calmly after what should have been a brief period of reflection and remorse. Holloway had particular reason to feel regret because his woofing toward the Cincinnati bench instigated the melee in the first place. Not only did Holloway refuse to apologize for his actions, he relished the chance to own them."
"But even if we give Holloway a pass for using that term, that still does not change the broader message he was communicating. He simply did not think there was anything wrong with trash talking to opposing coaches."
thus the main issue, his coach doesn't have a problem with it either.
after reflecting on this is Mack's timeline even realistic. Those interviews disappeared pretty quickly from the XU website.
Last edited by Sea Bass; 12-12-2011 at 03:06 PM..
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