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  #501  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Your point? The committee doesn't care that they had good seasons in the past.
To say that those games, ISU and Miami, are useless, is misleading, if they had played and beaten ISU when ISU was #37, then that would have been a big benefit to UD.

UD should quit playing 5 wimpy buy games and schedule an additional home and home series...good home and home opponents are hard to come by...teams like ISU are hit and miss, but sometimes that is the best you can do...sometimes you have to roll the dice to try to strengthen the SOS.



ISU has been in the top 100 5 times lately...top 76 4 of those times...top 62 3 of those times.




Originally Posted by Phi Psi Flyer '09
I wish I would have wrote this. This statement is everything. And yet, that is who people are begging for UD to play. At #230....At #136..."any MAC team" "Cleveland St." It is really just unbelievable. Take care of business at home and the success will continue.

Better to take a chance on a hit and miss ISU or Miami than play another buy game vs. Illinois-Chicago.

UIC is real heavyweight program.

Sometimes ISU is the best home and home you can get.





Originally Posted by longtimefan
First, thanks for repeating yourself AGAIN. I didn't quite get it the first several times you said it. Also, you have changed your argument. First you said the scheduling model was keeping UD out of the NCAA. Now you simply are saying it is hurting their seeding. Anyway, adding one road game as you suggest isn't going to do that much to the SOS, as I believe was illustrated above.
I thought I added some new stuff in there...for example, all the good non p5 schools play at least 15 away/neutral games nowadays.

I am arguing two points, first, the seeding impact of the SOS, two, UD's SOS almost kept them out this year, therefore, UD's scheduling model is very close to costing them bids.

Too close for comfort IMO.



And I am not seeing where the point was illustrated above?

Last edited by ud2; 08-02-2015 at 10:43 PM..
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  #502  
Old 08-02-2015, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
To say that those games, ISU and Miami, are useless, is misleading, if they had played and beaten ISU when ISU was #37, then that would have been a big benefit to UD.

UD should quit playing 5 wimpy buy games and schedule an additional home and home series...good home and home opponents are hard to come by...teams like ISU are hit and miss, but sometimes that is the best you can do...sometimes you have to roll the dice to try to strengthen the SOS.
Well, you clearly missed the point of my comment.

There's been post after post worrying about not having that extra road game, and how that will hurt our resume. I was merely pointing out that the "extra" in the past two in which we earned at large bids, didn't add anything to the resume. It didn't. That's all.
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  #503  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sw368407 View Post
Sure, if we added another A/N game that we can control it would help our SOS but I really don't think that is what is going to make or break us. Our dialogue should be directed at how poor a job the A-10 is doing in scheduling games between teams that would boost the number of A-10 teams into the tournament.
The other A10 teams might object to not getting shots at the top A10 teams.

Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Well, you clearly missed the point of my comment.

There's been post after post worrying about not having that extra road game, and how that will hurt our resume. I was merely pointing out that the "extra" in the past two in which we earned at large bids, didn't add anything to the resume. It didn't. That's all.
Bad luck, ISU was good several times, things just didn't line up. Also, you are potentially adding one more top 50 or top 100 opportunity along with the SOS boost.

Last edited by ud2; 08-03-2015 at 01:32 AM..
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  #504  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Southeast Missouri is the home opener. 99% of the college basketball world schedules a creampuff in the season opener.
Who is Southeast Missouri's home opener?
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  #505  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
I just fundamentally disagree with playing any 201+ games. We have 6/7 players with the most minutes returning.
I don't fundamentally disagree, but in reality what you are asking is much harder than you think. Teams in the 100s might want $100K+ for a buy game. Teams 200+ might want $50K to $75K. And teams in the 100s are in high demand for games. There aren't enough dates to go around for every top 100 team to schedule buy games against sub 200 teams. Just isn't possible.

And using last year's RPI to judge this year's buy games doesn't work all that well.
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  #506  
Old 08-03-2015, 09:28 AM
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It is a concern that teams take a few games to get their real competitive legs under them. We are no different. That IPFW near miss two years ago was followed by a sorry game against St Francis when we were only 3 points up with 5 minutes to go. And that was immediately following two exhibitions.

Last year we played one exhibition, beat an anemic Alabama A&M team, and then laid an egg against TA&M but got away with a win.

I hope we play a few exhibitions this season before Missouri State. Not showing on the schedule yet.

On the bright side, this season we should have numbers and intensity in practice with this roster.
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  #507  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Bad luck, ISU was good several times, things just didn't line up. Also, you are potentially adding one more top 50 or top 100 opportunity along with the SOS boost.
That has nothing to do with my post.
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  #508  
Old 08-03-2015, 10:56 AM
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There is one more aspect of the opening game that may (or may not) play a factor in a coach's head. The 1st game of the season is the most likely game of the year that you are going to see a suspension. There are 6+ months worth of offseason antics that create potential mini suspensions. Pollard missed last season's opener for an undisclosed (yet rumored) reason. From getting busted for a few beers, not getting to class as often as one should and any number of reasons that foul up your typical college age student (let alone one that plays basketball) that first game acts as a place to impart some discipline while having minimal impact on the success of the team.

It also seems like there is always a training camp injury or two that players are trying to work thru; having an easier opponent allows them to slowly work their way back in. While he never played in PR (I don't think), remember that Ryan Bass sat out last year's opener as well b/c of concussion issues.

Overall, an easier opener, work because it offers a soft buffer to the start of the season. While players and coaches are trying to figure out how all of these parts work together, are trying to pick up new strategies from practice they don't have to be at peak form and still walk away with a victory, which is all that matters.
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  #509  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
The 1st game of the season is the most likely game of the year that you are going to see a suspension.
I have no idea if that actually plays into the scheduling philosophy or not, but that's a great point.
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  #510  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
The 1st game of the season is the most likely game of the year that you are going to see a suspension.
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I have no idea if that actually plays into the scheduling philosophy or not, but that's a great point.
It's not working for Ohio State football.
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  #511  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:13 PM
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No, traditionally that have a "cupcake" week 1, all thought last year, they played at Navy, who while not great, presents their own unique challenges and has shown to have a "lasting" effect in that a lot of teams lose the week following their game vs Navy. This year, they are at VTech. They'd be better off spending week 1 vs North nowhere and week 2 or 3 against a name opponent, than spending week 1 vs a team like VTech. Although, its way better for the fans, I'm surprised they actually do it.
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  #512  
Old 08-03-2015, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post

Btw, Duke is playing Utah on the 19th -- Utah's exams finish on the 18th like Dayton's but they somehow can travel across the country to play Duke. Utah plays @Witchita State on the 12th right before exams and at Madison Square Garden versus Duke right after exams on the 19th. Sounds like the Utah fans are basically getting what you are deriding Chris, @Witchita 2 nights before exams (your @Duke) and across the country to play versus Duke in Madison Square Garden 1 day after exams (your @UCLA).
If UD could get a national televised game in Madison Square Garden against Duke the day after exams, they would take it. And it wasn't like Wichita State came to UD and offered a h-h with the first game on the 12th and UD turned them down. The fact is they aren't getting either of these games.

You can debate the merits of scheduling teams that will probably be 200+, but UD didn't turn down Duke and Wichita State to play SE Mizz and Furman.
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  #513  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Who is Southeast Missouri's home opener?
Last year it was Hannibal-LaGrange.
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  #514  
Old 08-03-2015, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shapanud View Post
If UD could get a national televised game in Madison Square Garden against Duke the day after exams, they would take it. And it wasn't like Wichita State came to UD and offered a h-h with the first game on the 12th and UD turned them down. The fact is they aren't getting either of these games.

You can debate the merits of scheduling teams that will probably be 200+, but UD didn't turn down Duke and Wichita State to play SE Mizz and Furman.
Let's also not forget that Utah is a "Power Conference" team now being in the Big 12.
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  #515  
Old 08-04-2015, 02:29 PM
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Correction, Utah is in PAC 12 not BIG 12.
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  #516  
Old 08-04-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
That has nothing to do with my post.
I don't know, no disrespect, but I think you are cherry picking the data to support your argument.

Nobody has any idea before the season begins which OOC road/neutral game is going to be the weakest. Using ISU and Miami in those two years seems very random to me. You could pick other road/neutral opponents as being the 14th game those years, why randomly pick ISU and Miami? GT was actually worse than ISU the one year you highlighted, why not pick GT as the 14th game that year?

I looked at some of the OOC road/neutral games from years past. The one year, Old Dominion ended up being the strongest away/neutral OOC game. ODU was ahead of whoever UD played in UD's exempt tournament that year.

I highly doubt that many would have picked ODU to be the toughest OOC road/neutral game that year.

And I think UD may have gone to the NCAA tournament that year they played at ODU.

As I mentioned, ISU and Miami have had some good teams, ISU in particular has had several good teams recently.

If you schedule more home and home series, you increase the likelihood that sooner or later you are going to hit the jackpot and end up with a solid game(s) in terms of the opponent being good.

It just so happens that your two examples were of two teams that had down years.

It is my opinion that UD's OOC schedule last year hurt them. Had UD played one more decent opponent as part of a home and home series, instead of a buy game, it is possible that UD does not end up in the First Four.

And it also my opinion that UD's OOC SOS almost kept them out of the tournament entirely.

Last edited by ud2; 08-04-2015 at 03:20 PM..
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  #517  
Old 08-04-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I don't know, no disrespect, but I think you are cherry picking the data to support your argument.

Nobody has any idea before the season begins which OOC road/neutral game is going to be the weakest. Using ISU and Miami in those two years seems very random to me. You could pick other road/neutral opponents as being the 14th game those years, why randomly pick ISU and Miami? GT was actually worse than ISU the one year you highlighted, why not pick GT as the 14th game that year?

I looked at some of the OOC road/neutral games from years past. The one year, Old Dominion ended up being the strongest away/neutral OOC game. ODU was ahead of whoever UD played in UD's exempt tournament that year.

I highly doubt that many would have picked ODU to be the toughest OOC road/neutral game that year.

And I think UD may have gone to the NCAA tournament that year they played at ODU.

As I mentioned, ISU and Miami have had some good teams, ISU in particular has had several good teams recently.

If you schedule more home and home series, you increase the likelihood that sooner or later you are going to hit the jackpot and end up with a solid game(s) in terms of the opponent being good.

It just so happens that your two examples were of two teams that had down years.

It is my opinion that UD's OOC schedule last year hurt them. Had UD played one more decent opponent as part of a home and home series, instead of a buy game, it is possible that UD does not end up in the First Four.

And it also my opinion that UD's OOC SOS almost kept them out of the tournament entirely.
Honest question. When was the last time Miami had a good year?
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Old 08-04-2015, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
It is my opinion that UD's OOC schedule last year hurt them. And it is also my opinion that UD's OOC SOS almost kept them out of the tournament entirely.
No disrespect, but, really???
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  #519  
Old 08-04-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
No disrespect, but, really???
I would suggest that loses to the Dukes and the Explorers late in the season had more of an impact that OOC. For most of the last decade or so we were middle of the pack or worse in conference. that has changed. OOC opponents having down years last year was no help. Don't see how scheduling a H/H with Miami, hoping that sometime in the future they will actually have a competitive team is a good strategy. Really hard to schedule a H/H with P5 schools when they know that while they MAY win at home, winning at the Arena is problematic. Should the Flyers continue do well in the Dance, more P5 schools will be willing to take a chance as a loss to the Flyers at the Arena will not be a bad loss. We are relatively new to this level of success, things will become easier schedule wise as we build our resume.
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Old 08-04-2015, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I don't know, no disrespect, but I think you are cherry picking the data to support your argument.

Nobody has any idea before the season begins which OOC road/neutral game is going to be the weakest. Using ISU and Miami in those two years seems very random to me. You could pick other road/neutral opponents as being the 14th game those years, why randomly pick ISU and Miami? GT was actually worse than ISU the one year you highlighted, why not pick GT as the 14th game that year?

I looked at some of the OOC road/neutral games from years past. The one year, Old Dominion ended up being the strongest away/neutral OOC game. ODU was ahead of whoever UD played in UD's exempt tournament that year.

I highly doubt that many would have picked ODU to be the toughest OOC road/neutral game that year.

And I think UD may have gone to the NCAA tournament that year they played at ODU.

As I mentioned, ISU and Miami have had some good teams, ISU in particular has had several good teams recently.

If you schedule more home and home series, you increase the likelihood that sooner or later you are going to hit the jackpot and end up with a solid game(s) in terms of the opponent being good.

It just so happens that your two examples were of two teams that had down years.

It is my opinion that UD's OOC schedule last year hurt them. Had UD played one more decent opponent as part of a home and home series, instead of a buy game, it is possible that UD does not end up in the First Four.

And it also my opinion that UD's OOC SOS almost kept them out of the tournament entirely.
No, you continue to make my "argument" out to be more than it actually was meant to be.

Once again, to try to sum it up:
Multiple Posters: We could be in trouble this season (2015-2016) because we are only playing 13 A/N.

My Argument: We are fine in 2015-2016, referenced a 14th A/N (Non-power 5, since we have Vandy on the road), if we just handle our business. That's it.

I said nothing about scheduling philosophy. The 2015-2016 schedule is set. What we should/could have done is irrelevant. We can't change it now. My argument had nothing to do with how many H/H's we should schedule in the present/future, but this is what you continue to respond to me with by bringing up the same things you have for months. That's fine, but it's just not relevant to the point I was making.
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:12 PM
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Honest question. When was the last time Miami had a good year?
Agree, but at least the Miami game is a forced/built-in road game every other year due to the rivalry. UD went backwards this year with only 13 road/neutral games. I vote to keep the Miami game for no other reason than what I just mentioned.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Agree, but at least the Miami game is a forced/built-in road game every other year due to the rivalry. UD went backwards this year with only 13 road/neutral games. I vote to keep the Miami game for no other reason than what I just mentioned.
Improve the OOC but keep the Miami game, seems like a contradiction to me.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Improve the OOC but keep the Miami game, seems like a contradiction to me.
We have to keep some tradition alive. After all, we're UD Basketball and we're all about tradition. We don't play UC, DePaul, Xavier, that other school in the outskirts of Dayton, Notre Dame, Louisville, or Marquette as it is. Maybe they keep Miami on the schedule for nostalgia purposes.

It's a true road game that prevents the students from missing another day of classes, allows them to sleep in their own beds, etc.

With that said, I haven't looked recently, but how much worse is WSU's RPI on AVERAGE than Miami's? I'm very against a WSU series, but Miami plays a very slow half-court game that has given Dayton (and other teams like Kentucky) some trouble. See the Miami game where B-Rob hit the winning 3 to come back from 30 down and the Kentucky game the next year at Rupp.

I get the difficulty of scheduling, especially since the Pitt game at UD. It HAS been the same argument that we've made for not playing Wright State. Too much to lose and not enough to gain by playing a home and home. However, I think if we stay on this track and keep this success going, teams will not see it as a "too much to lose" if they lose at UD and it will turn into a "good loss" eventually.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bhflyer5 View Post
With that said, I haven't looked recently, but how much worse is WSU's RPI on AVERAGE than Miami's?
5-Year Average
Miami: 201 (230, 160, 258, 247, 111)
Wright State: 181 (263, 162, 130, 226, 124)
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bhflyer5 View Post

It's a true road game that prevents the students from missing another day of classes, allows them to sleep in their own beds, etc.
They don't sleep in their own beds for that game. Just like every other road game they leave the day before and stay overnight.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
5-Year Average
Miami: 201 (230, 160, 258, 247, 111)
Wright State: 181 (263, 162, 130, 226, 124)
I did not realize they are both so horrendous. Let's end this conversation about playing either one.
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Old 08-05-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Improve the OOC but keep the Miami game, seems like a contradiction to me.
Agree, drop the Miami game, but it may just get replaced with another buy game.

13 away/neutral games could become the norm, so might as well keep the Miami home and home series going.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.


And keeping this series is cheaper than adding another buy game.

Last edited by ud2; 08-05-2015 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 08-05-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Agree, but at least the Miami game is a forced/built-in road game every other year due to the rivalry. UD went backwards this year with only 13 road/neutral games. I vote to keep the Miami game for no other reason than what I just mentioned.
Any kind of "forced" road game at an awful awful MAC school is not good for UD. I'd prefer to leave all this "tradition" talk in the past where it belongs. How about a new tradition? Intelligent scheduling (like we have) where we don't play garbage road teams, win at home, get to the NCAA tournament and win there too.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:20 AM
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I really hate to keep this thread going (it has been hashed, and rehashed), but ……
There was a commentary article by Rob Oller in the Columbus Dispatch this morning about declining attendance at Football and Basketball games in college in general. This being a football town, there was very little mention of basketball, but I thought this comment was “interesting” (and thus the tie in to this thread):
“It is an old refrain, but if Ohio State wants to increase student attendance at men’s basketball games, it would behoove the program to play fewer cupcakes."
Long article and not really any new information:
http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/cont...ommentary.html

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Old 08-06-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
I really hate to keep this thread going (it has been hashed, and rehashed), but ……
There was a commentary article by Rob Oller in the Columbus Dispatch this morning about declining attendance at Football and Basketball games in college in general. This being a football town, there was very little mention of basketball, but I thought this comment was “interesting” (and thus the tie in to this thread):
“It is an old refrain, but if Ohio State wants to increase student attendance at men’s basketball games, it would behoove the program to play fewer cupcakes."
Long article and not really any new information:
http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/cont...ommentary.html
UD can guarantee them 1 sellout in the preconference schedule!
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Old 08-06-2015, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TerryK_67 View Post
I really hate to keep this thread going (it has been hashed, and rehashed), but ……
There was a commentary article by Rob Oller in the Columbus Dispatch this morning about declining attendance at Football and Basketball games in college in general. This being a football town, there was very little mention of basketball, but I thought this comment was “interesting” (and thus the tie in to this thread):
“It is an old refrain, but if Ohio State wants to increase student attendance at men’s basketball games, it would behoove the program to play fewer cupcakes."
Long article and not really any new information:
http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/cont...ommentary.html
They may have to start worrying a little about football too. The addition of Rutgers and Maryland along with the usual weak pre Big 10 games is not going to help keeping fans interest. My daughter didn't even buy the pre-Big 10 games this year.

As far as basketball, it isn't just the preconference games either. Unless the Buckeyes are top 10, the fans aren't coming out in droves for many of the Big 10 games either.
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Old 08-06-2015, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
They don't sleep in their own beds for that game. Just like every other road game they leave the day before and stay overnight.
Are you sure about that? You may have information I don't, I'll admit- but...

I'm a Miami grad and lived right next to the arena/was there all the time for practices and on the court. I never once saw UD practice early on in the day.

I also lived by/across the street from the only two hotels that visiting teams stay in and never once saw UD players in or around those two hotels.
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
5-Year Average
Miami: 201 (230, 160, 258, 247, 111)
Wright State: 181 (263, 162, 130, 226, 124)
Yes, but the 5 years prior Miami was 81, 80, 90, 83, 58!
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bhflyer5 View Post
Are you sure about that? You may have information I don't, I'll admit- but...

I'm a Miami grad and lived right next to the arena/was there all the time for practices and on the court. I never once saw UD practice early on in the day.

I also lived by/across the street from the only two hotels that visiting teams stay in and never once saw UD players in or around those two hotels.
Yup, at least since BG was at UD I am. The road routine is to get to the location of the game the day before. Almost all DI teams will do this. When I worked at Eastern Michigan they stayed in a hotel the night before playing at Michigan even though it was only 7 miles down the road. Most teams try to have the same routine for every road game.
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bhflyer5 View Post
Yes, but the 5 years prior Miami was 81, 80, 90, 83, 58!
This.

Last edited by ud2; 08-06-2015 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 08-06-2015, 03:05 PM
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Miami's RPI in 09-10 was 144. I don't think I would give a home-and-home to a team whose last 6 RPI's were 230, 160, 258, 247, 111, and 144.
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:58 AM
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So, Miami over the last ten or so years has been decent about half the time. I just don't want to go to 17/13. If you can promise me that you won't go to 17/13, then drop the Miami series.
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
So, Miami over the last ten or so years has been decent about half the time. I just don't want to go to 17/13. If you can promise me that you won't go to 17/13, then drop the Miami series.
They have also been horrible since Charlie Coles retired. So while you say they have been good half the time, I feel they need to do a lot to show that they can help us at all.
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Old 08-07-2015, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
So, Miami over the last ten or so years has been decent about half the time.
But that "half" was over 6 years ago.
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Old 08-07-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
...

I hope we play a few exhibitions this season before Missouri State. Not showing on the schedule yet.

On the bright side, this season we should have numbers and intensity in practice with this roster.
We are playing one exhibition Nov 7 against Div II Saginaw Valley St. announced yesterday. That probably means we are scrimmaging someone "behind closed doors".
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Old 08-07-2015, 04:16 PM
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Was an explanation ever given as to why they strayed from the 16/14 model that has been used for quite a while and went 17/13 instead?

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Old 08-07-2015, 04:36 PM
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Yes, lack of an opponent willing to play on a date that worked for both sides.

Plenty of info in PridePlus and elsewhere that I won't share regarding Alabama and other stories of games close to being inked, but were ultimately rejected by P5 schools - including games that would have been at the home of the P5 school this year.

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Old 08-07-2015, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Was an explanation ever given as to why they strayed from the 16/14 model that has been used for quite a while and went 17/13 instead?
As Maxwell Smart use to say "Would you believe someone lost count???"
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Yes, lack of an opponent willing to play on a date that worked for both sides.

Plenty of info in PridePlus and elsewhere that I won't share regarding Alabama and other stories of games close to being inked, but were ultimately rejected by P5 schools - including games that would have been at the home of the P5 school this year.
So, IMO, this sounds like a long-term problem.

Does UD have a plan for how to deal with this problem in the future? Or is UD just going to throw in the towel and resign itself to playing a 17/13 schedule every year from now on?
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
So, IMO, this sounds like a long-term problem.

Does UD have a plan for how to deal with this problem in the future? Or is UD just going to throw in the towel and resign itself to playing a 17/13 schedule every year from now on?
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
So, IMO, this sounds like a long-term problem.

Does UD have a plan for how to deal with this problem in the future? Or is UD just going to throw in the towel and resign itself to playing a 17/13 schedule every year from now on?
Just going to throw in the towel and give up. Going to sign the entire SWAC to buy games and call it a day.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
So, IMO, this sounds like a long-term problem.

Does UD have a plan for how to deal with this problem in the future? Or is UD just going to throw in the towel and resign itself to playing a 17/13 schedule every year from now on?
Doesn't appear that UD is throwing in the towel at all. Don't have details from Pride Plus but is sounds like UD is making an effort to schedule P-5 schools. Just keep winning baby. Continue to have positive results both in conference and the Dance and the task will become easier over time. Actually I believe the late season losses to the Dukes and Explorers had the most impact , cost us a regular season championship and two more wins on the resume. (Not to worry, the road game at Miami would save us if we just extend the series)
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:43 PM
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You play the best available without succumbing to away game only arrangements with teams that are less successful than us in the NCAA tournament, but think they can throw their conference affiliation weight around as if it is relevant. I think that you stay with that philosophy, and if you really have a true quality program to back it up, you will rise to the top. Has there ever been a more successful run than the last two years where we are following exactly the philosophy that I just described? Sustain it, and everyone will be trying to figure out how UD has been scheduling so successfully.

Once you are in the NCAA tournament, there is no hiding behind conference affiliation, league SOS, etc. You have to actually demonstrate that you are good at basketball. All pretenses go out the window. That is why we have been successful. We really are good. We are undervalued by the committee and the general public.

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Old 08-08-2015, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Your response just seems like avoidance to me rather than figuring out why UD is doing what it is doing.

Nobody else in the country seems to have this problem. Look at UMass's schedule last year. I can list several other teams just like UMass.
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:07 PM
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Ticks me off that Stanford signed a h-n-h with SMU. But that kind of snub is what happens when you embarrass P5 programs on the court---right Pittsburgh?!
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  #552  
Old 08-08-2015, 03:13 PM
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UMass last year:



Neutral:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Florida State



Road:

At #52 Harvard, at LSU, at Providence, at BYU

4 true road games



9 league road games

16 away or neutral games last year.



UD is playing 13 away or neutral games this year, only 1 true road game.



Why is UMass able to schedule these quality games, but UD can't? And again, it isn't just UMass that is doing this.

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Old 08-08-2015, 03:37 PM
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UMass lost all their road games. UMass lost to Harvard. UMass lost to LSU. UMass lost to Providence. And UMass lost to BYU. And what tournament was UMass in? So whose scheduling philosophy seems to be working? Again, UD tried to get a second road game this year to get to 16/14, but couldn't get it done for various reasons. 17/13 is not the norm, so I don't know why you keep harping on it, especially since you go to many more Xavier games than you do UD games.
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  #554  
Old 08-08-2015, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
UMass last year:



Neutral:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Florida State



Road:

At #52 Harvard, at LSU, at Providence, at BYU

4 true road games



9 league road games

16 away or neutral games last year.



UD is playing 13 away or neutral games this year, only 1 true road game.



Why is UMass able to schedule these quality games, but UD can't? And again, it isn't just UMass that is doing this.
Hi. Which tournament did UMass play in last year? How many NCAA games did they win in the last two years? What level football do they play?

Just stop already, dude. If you're not going to listen to any evidence anyone presents you, you should just stop posting on this topic.

UD has NEVER missed the NCAA tournament due to a weak non conference schedule. Never. Hasn't happened. Won't happen. UD tried and tried and tried multiple creative ways to get additional road/neutral games this year. And the year before. And the year before that. If you can't or won't understand that, you should not discuss the topic any more.
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  #555  
Old 08-08-2015, 05:21 PM
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ud2,

Please give it up. You have become the 2015 version of the 2014 rollo. You have said the same things 50 times. It has become a bore. You have always added good insight here but you are losing credibility with this constant rant.
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  #556  
Old 08-08-2015, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
ud2,

Please give it up. You have become the 2015 version of the 2014 rollo. You have said the same things 50 times. It has become a bore. You have always added good insight here but you are losing credibility with this constant rant.
I disagree. Although I do not agree with everything UD2 posts, I appreciate his views, particularly because he often backs up his arguments with examples and facts. For example, his UMASS post brings new information to the discussion. Others refuted the UMASS with good counter-points. I am not a big believer in silencing people unless they are insulting others or purposely posting lies.

Best remedy to refute speech you disagree with is more speech, not less.

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Old 08-08-2015, 08:58 PM
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OK. We play 13 road/neutral games. Let's please move on and get ready to win those games.
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
I disagree. Although I do not agree with everything UD2 posts, I appreciate his views, particularly because he often backs up his arguments with examples and facts. For example, his UMASS post brings new information to the discussion. Others refuted the UMASS with good counter-points. I am not a big believer in silencing people unless they are insulting others or purposely posting lies.

Best remedy to refute speech you disagree with is more speech, not less.
Speech is pretty much useless when the other party ignores other's points and continues to repeat the same theory over, and over, and over. He doesn't like the current setup, I get that. He berates the athletic staff, not having a clue what is involved in setting up a schedule. As far as UMASS, the only fact worth anything is we Danced and they lost all their OCC road games and didn't Dance. Not a ringing endorsement for UMASS system in my opinion. Perhaps it's easier for UMASS to schedule given their track record, and harder for UD given our track record. Actually the best response to the poster would be to ignore him on this topic (not put him on ignore), but just not respond. Believe that will be my approach from now on.

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  #559  
Old 08-09-2015, 12:01 PM
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Apologies if this has been positioned already. But what if a given year's schedule included Wichita State and Gonzaga at home, plus Boise State and Northern Iowa on the road, with the reverse the following year. I'd certainly take that guarantee over getting strung along til the last minute by teams from P5 conferences, only to have them not sign a home-and-home with us. We get potential shots at the P5 in preseason and postseason tourneys. Let's take the occasional neutral/road series with the better P5's and concentrate more on home/home's with quality peers with the same goals as us. Am I being too simple with this approach?
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by redbengal View Post
Apologies if this has been positioned already. But what if a given year's schedule included Wichita State and Gonzaga at home, plus Boise State and Northern Iowa on the road, with the reverse the following year. I'd certainly take that guarantee over getting strung along til the last minute by teams from P5 conferences, only to have them not sign a home-and-home with us. We get potential shots at the P5 in preseason and postseason tourneys. Let's take the occasional neutral/road series with the better P5's and concentrate more on home/home's with quality peers with the same goals as us. Am I being too simple with this approach?
I think UD would probably do that assuming all 4 of the other teams wanted to and could make the dates work. That said, Spokane and Boise are pretty far to travel, and likewise, Dayton is pretty far for those schools. Boise is 0-2 at the UD Arena in recent years too! Gonzaga and Wichita seem to be looking for bigger games as well, so I doubt they would be interested. I don't know this for a fact, but I would be shocked if UD hasn't at least talked to the Zags about it. There was a lot made about Archie and Mark Few chatting during and around the Maui tournament a couple years ago.

I think the biggest problem is the mutual interest and making it work.

This article is relevant, I think. Wyoming is having similar (but far worse) issues in their scheduling: http://m.starherald.com/sports/regio....html?mode=jqm

If that link won't work, this link about that link might: College Basketball Talk

The real solution to all of this is to make the A10 better and make the A10 schedule the better teams against each other. Or, get into a better conference. Then the non-con isn't as important.
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Ticks me off that Stanford signed a h-n-h with SMU. But that kind of snub is what happens when you embarrass P5 programs on the court---right Pittsburgh?!
Bingo! you can erase this entire thread. it just got summed up in one very simple,compact sentence.

Well said SDF
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by redbengal View Post
Apologies if this has been positioned already. But what if a given year's schedule included Wichita State and Gonzaga at home, plus Boise State and Northern Iowa on the road, with the reverse the following year. I'd certainly take that guarantee over getting strung along til the last minute by teams from P5 conferences, only to have them not sign a home-and-home with us. We get potential shots at the P5 in preseason and postseason tourneys. Let's take the occasional neutral/road series with the better P5's and concentrate more on home/home's with quality peers with the same goals as us. Am I being too simple with this approach?
Why would Gonzaga play us in a H&H? They already play UCLA and Arizona and Mountain West teams in H&H this year. A H&H with us to their fans would be like our H&H with Alabama with our fans this year. I am sorry, but we are not on Wichita State and Gonzaga's level. Now Boise and Northern Iowa that is a differnt story.

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  #563  
Old 08-09-2015, 02:59 PM
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Agree that I've gotten repetitious on this thread...also agree that I've gotten somewhat irrational on this thread...also agree that I've gone overboard with some of the things that I've posted on this thread.

But gawd, it just totally chaps my as* that UD can't consistently put together a better OOC schedule.

I thought Archie would bring change to this aspect of the program, but I thought wrong.

Having said that, I am going to take a break for a while from this thread, I'm just too irritated at this point.

And John C., I appreciate the comparison to rollo, I truly am royally honored to be compared to true greatness. Lol.
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  #564  
Old 08-09-2015, 04:59 PM
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ud2, i agree with both sides. I understand why nothing happens either way with solid H&H's. But purely from being a fan and going to games and not EVER missing a second of UD action i understand your frustration. i too wish we could get all the good ones back on a rotational basis, Louisville,XU,UC,Marquette,St. John's,Georgetown etc....maybe mix in a Gonzaga or Missouri Valley schools or MWC schools. And every blue moon score a Kansas or Mich St.. just not gonna happen though. i just seem to have a better understanding why it won't. You have to earn your keep and do what we've done the last two years for 3-5 more years then those games will come. joining the Big East would help also. And those who suggest the build the Brand in the A-10 and own it like Butler did the Horizon are off their rockers. The money is exponentially better for us in the Big East and in one fell swoop gets like half our old rivalries back on the schedule. Scheduling is a frustrating and inexact science. All this crap aside, just win baby.
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Old 08-09-2015, 06:10 PM
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Gonzaga, Boise, Wichita St, and N Iowa were just examples. But I'm sure other teams that align with Dayton's goals and are of relatively equal ability and prospects are out there for H/H's.
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I thought Archie would bring change to this aspect of the program, but I thought wrong.
Archie's not finished yet.

If we go to the Sweet 16 this year, for example, then we've got 3 straight years of postseason success, some of it significant success. 1 is luck. 2 is fun. 3 in a row is a streak; you've proven something. Then other schools would pay attention. Assuming we made a Sweet 16 with this group, Archie was still the coach, we had a decent incoming recruiting class (no major drop off in talent), and we still could not put together an interesting h/h series with a team or 2, THEN I'll be disappointed.

Nobody said it was easy to join the club.
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Old 08-10-2015, 04:02 PM
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Power conference schools avoiding road games at Wyoming

In a story from the Associated Press late this week, Shyatt revealed how he’s tried to do everything he can to schedule major conference opponents to come and play in Wyoming. The Cowboys will draw Cal at the Dome of Doom this season, but it was a deal in which Wyoming had to play two road games to make the one home game happen. The school hasn’t had a true home-and-home arrangement with a power conference program since Washington State over a decade ago.


Only four power conference programs have played a road game at Wyoming since 1997 and none since the 2004-05 season. Having been a member of staffs at bigger basketball programs like Clemson and Florida, Shyatt understands the scheduling conundrum, but he’d still like to draw some big-name opponents in his home arena.


“They’re not playing us, and quite honestly, if I was the head coach at Colorado or Florida, I don’t know if I would come to Laramie unless they’d play in October, September, August, July or June,” Shyatt said to the AP. “If I’m thinking selfishly of my university, what am I getting? What are we getting? What’s our league getting? Tough call.”


As the AP story notes, Wyoming has entered some in-season tournaments to try to beef up the schedule the next few seasons, but this is just another example of a program from a non-power league having a tough time getting major teams to play them at home. If Wyoming and other Mountain West programs hope to continue to make at-large NCAA tournament appearances, they need to try to get some kind of scheduling bump at home if they can. Coming off of four consecutive postseason appearances, it’s doubtful any power conference team wants to travel to Wyoming but it will be interesting to see if these sorts of things change in the next couple of years.
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Old 08-10-2015, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by redbengal View Post
Gonzaga, Boise, Wichita St, and N Iowa were just examples. But I'm sure other teams that align with Dayton's goals and are of relatively equal ability and prospects are out there for H/H's.
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While I love the idea of playing those types of teams, I hate that they end up having a Bracket-buster feel to them. Give me a shot at those over-inflated P5 school every time.
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
We did that last year. We had exactly one loss that I would term as "bad"... at Duquesne. And nearly got left out. We finished 2nd in the A10. Thank God for the road win at VCU...

Rhode Island may well be the only quality in-conference opponent we play on the road this year. "Alabama" as the name opponent was not worth the tease we got on here about a P5 series. About the last thing we need on the schedule is another low-level SEC opponent.

We HAVE TO beat Iowa, and maybe also Notre Dame or we literally will have no margin for error this year. I don't understand why we can't get a series with a non-con opponent who is not Power 5 but is respectable. Iona. Winthrop. St. Mary's. Buffalo. Half of the Mountain West. Half of the MVC. Tulsa. They seriously can't find one mid-major who is willing to visit the Arena?
One of the reasons this stuff is difficult is that you just don't know who is going to be consistently good. There are very, very few teams outside of the Power 5 and nBE that would be a solid bet year to year. I'd love to play Gonzaga, Wichita State, and the like home-and-home. The problem is two fold. They don't really need to/want to play us, and there are very very few programs who are in a similar position. Boise has been good but don't they lose Marks? Northern Iowa has had a good run for sure but will they sustain it? New Mexico is generally up there but they were under .500 last year. St. Mary's, BYU out of the WCC are always good it seems, but travel is an issue. Wyoming was mentioned up thread as a really tough place to play (and again in the recent article) but they haven't been quite good enough to cement as a very good home and home. So there just aren't very many programs outside the top 6-7 conferences who are in a similar position to us. Stephen F Austin? What happens if their coach leaves? La Tech would have been up there but I doubt they sustain their success now that their coach is in Gainesville.

From one year to the next, programs can flip in a hurry. Buffalo last year would have been a very nice opponent. This year, poof! They lose their head coach. They lose arguably their best player. Now comes word that they may have three other guys out, including their leading returning scorer due to an eerily similar incident to the one right here. See this article for details.

Put me in the boat that generally believes a home and home with any MAC school isn't a good idea (including the one in Oxford). But it's really hard to predict! In March, you'd think Buffalo might be worth a road game. Now, not so much.

So again, why would Gonzaga or Wichita want to play us instead of a Power 5 home and home? They have both had more success than us recently. And sustained it as well. Anyway, this is a tough tough thing to put together. Once we make a Final Four, get a #1 seed in the tournament, get some guys drafted, we can get better home and home series. But we are substantially behind Wichita and Gonzaga if you look at the last 5 years, 10 years. We are well on our way though.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
So again, why would Gonzaga or Wichita want to play us instead of a Power 5 home and home? They have both had more success than us recently.
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Wichita State currently has home and homes with Seton Hall, St. Louis, and Tulsa. Last season, they also played @ Detroit and @ Hawaii (winning by one point). Hawaii is a long trip from Wichita (we aren't in Kansas anymore, Toto). Gonzaga hosted St. Joseph's last season. Thus, to claim that these programs are so much above UD and would never even think about playing UD (and nobody will play poor UD because we are like Wyoming) is a bit of a stretch.

Remember, Dayton is the epicenter of college basketball, a far cry from Laramie, Wyoming...
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:21 PM
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- Wichita's Hawaii trip was an exempt tournament.
- Gonzaga hosted St. Joseph's. We would never play a road-only game with Gonzaga for a multitude of reasons. Doing so would be an admission that Gonzaga is not in our peer group.
- Tulsa is a 3hr bus ride from Wichita
- Dayton is twice as far from Wichita as St. Louis is from Wichita. Before last season's struggle, SLU was on equal ground as us. Why travel twice as far for no additional benefit
- Seton Hall, SLU, and Tulsa are not exactly glamorous home/homes for Wichita. Their fans are probably saying, "Jeez cant we get anyone better than this like some good Power-5 schools?"

Fans make it seem like there are folks working underground at UD that purposely go out of their way to not schedule good teams. Ive never seen any evidence to support this. Whatever team you wanted to see on the UD schedule, the likelihood is far greater that UD wanted them on the schedule far more than the other team wanted Dayton on theirs -- and that's why they aren't on either one.
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
they also played @ Detroit and @ Hawaii (winning by one point). Hawaii is a long trip from Wichita (we aren't in Kansas anymore, Toto).
I don't think Hawaii was a true road game rather was part of a tournament being played in Hawaii
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
-
- Gonzaga hosted St. Joseph's. We would never play a road-only game with Gonzaga for a multitude of reasons. Doing so would be an admission that Gonzaga is not in our peer group.

Bingo, and that's a bad decision IMHO. I suspected that the refusal to do a "2 for 1" was based on "pride." But pride won't get you a better seed in the NCAA tournament. If we only play games against teams in our "peer group," we aren't going to get many good games. UD has no real rivalries anymore. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. Swallow the pride. Heck, I'd do a "2 for 0" if the game is good enough.


Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
- Dayton is twice as far from Wichita as St. Louis is from Wichita. Before last season's struggle, SLU was on equal ground as us. Why travel twice as far for no additional benefit.

And Detroit and Seton Hall are even farther from Wichita...

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Seton Hall, SLU, and Tulsa are not exactly glamorous home/homes for Wichita. Their fans are probably saying, "Jeez cant we get anyone better than this like some good Power-5 schools?"

Irrelevant speculation. The fact is that those teams are on Wichita's schedule as home and homes.

Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Fans make it seem like there are folks working underground at UD that purposely go out of their way to not schedule good teams.

Never said that. I'm just stating facts (with a little bit of opinion thrown in ).
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:41 PM
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I would be all for a 2 for 1 with Gonzaga or the like.
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
I would be all for a 2 for 1 with Gonzaga or the like.

Me too. A loss @ Gonzaga (or @ any other Top 50 team, really) would be no big deal and might actually help the RPI.

A win? Huge. Clutch. Peer group, smear group. We already beat them a couple years ago on neutral.

FWIW, I don't think UD's schedule is terrible, it could just use a little spicing up. We could still play some buy games, a lot of home games, etc. A win vs. Iowa in Orlando this season could go a long way...
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Bingo, and that's a bad decision IMHO. I suspected that the refusal to do a "2 for 1" was based on "pride." But pride won't get you a better seed in the NCAA tournament. If we only play games against teams in our "peer group," we aren't going to get many good games. UD has no real rivalries anymore. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. Swallow the pride. Heck, I'd do a "2 for 0" if the game is good enough.
Total speculation that Gonzaga would want to play us twice, let alone three times. I've got $20 that says they have no interest playing us even once. I doubt Duke and North Carolina do either, now that Power-5 conferences are going to 18 games. Its a different time now.

And Detroit and Seton Hall are even farther from Wichita...
Which underscores how suspect those two games/series are. Their fans must be livid. That's a Final Four program. What's their excuse.
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Old 08-11-2015, 08:29 AM
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It's an interesting question, isn't it: who is UD's peer group?

Someone else said it: we really don't have anyone in our peer group. What other school gets 10K+ fans for every home game for decades, has a deep / rich commitment to basketball over the very long term, has only had significant NCAA success very recently, is in a moderately strong ("half full") conference but has not ever dominated it, yet has a respectable RPI / Sagarine rating every year, and has little name recognition / cachet?

That's really our problem, we don't fit a mold. Fans / administrations from opposing schools as well as the media don't know how to classify us.

We're kind of like SLU but not exactly. We're kind of like Wichita but without the excitement. We're a little like VCU but they had such great post-season success for a couple years so we can't compare ourselves yet. We're nothing like Gonzaga yet. Previous near-peers of ours are now in the NBE so they're now "majors." Wyoming might be more of a peer than we like to admit.
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Old 08-11-2015, 08:34 AM
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Some of you guys that keep throwing out these ideas really have no idea how this works. There is a lot of timing involved in this, but there also has to be a desire from the schools to want to play each other. Just look at the link below at all the different dates these early season tournaments take up. They are scattered throughout Nov. Plus many of them have campus sites before the actual tournament, some have games after the tournament associated with the tournament, and some have both. Almost any team worth playing in a H&H play in one of these, which takes up a big chunk of prime slots to play a game.

As soon as these are done, after Thanksgiving, then you have Exams to schedule around. Not everybody has exams at the same time. Some are very early Dec, some are the 2nd week, and some are right before Christmas. After Christmas you have 1 week before conference play starts, and some leagues like the Big10 even start conference play in December.

Somewhere in there, you have to sprinkle in the buy games and the almost guaranteed wins. Every team like Dayton needs to have so many home games, and they cannot do that playing only H&H's. So they have to make room for buy games in the schedule.

Finally, even if you find a few teams that can match the dates available, you have to have a desire on both ends to play the game. Dayton is good enough that they could beat most teams on any given night, but still does not have a good enough reputation that teams will look at a loss at Dayton as a loss that does not hurt them. Just look at how a school like Providence who has had less success than we have recently viewed us. To these schools fans, a loss at Dayton is not acceptable. That makes it too risky for a top school to play here.

There is a lot more involved than, "Hey let's call Gonzaga and start a H&H with them, that would be great for us." It may be great for us, but it is not a fit for them.

http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/20...nts-events-MTE

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Old 08-11-2015, 09:00 AM
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Gazoo, I've thought about that myself as well, UD is kind of on an island by themselves at the moment, but there are several other teams out on islands as well that may not match perfectly to what UD is at the moment, but have enough similarities. I assume UD has been in touch with many of these, but who would be on that list?

New Mexico has more name recognition as well as a D1 football team that they could use as leverage to secure home & home basketball dates (don't know if they do or not) but have a similarly arena setup, good home court, well supported, traditionally do well in conference play. I don't recall them making a bunch of noise in the NCAA the way UD has recently, but they're regularly in the mix and in the dance. UD has played them H & H in the recent past, I doubt either school draws many (any?) kids from the other schools respective region with probably few alum in the area and would require a decent chunk of time in the air to travel for a game.

Boise St, has had a good amount of success of late in basketball, football has turned itself into a name brand, and while they could leverage football for basketball purposes (they leveraged their on campus bowl game to get Cincy to play basketball there a decade or so ago) I doubt basketball gets any sort of preference over what is good for football up there. Similar to New Mexico, I doubt either school gets students or many alums from the respective region and its a decent length flight. Perhaps last season could spark an interest from both sides.

Wyoming as you listed is similar to New Mexico with out as much success in basketball. Usually pretty solid, tough to get in/out during the winter months (see UD getting stuck for a day + tryinig to get out of there a few years ago) and the elevation is a factor.

Northern Iowa, after WSU, this is the most consistent of the current MVC teams.

Old Dominion, transitioning to D1 football, IIRC

Who else could they add? Hopefully, with another season or two under Archie and more NCAA success, Dayton can find its way into the realm where WSU & Gonzaga currently reside.
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Old 08-11-2015, 09:00 AM
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I believe all you that really understand how things work and how difficult it is to get the kind of home and home's with power 5 and the likes of Gonzaga, Wich St, etc. I also understand that leaves home and home's with MAC, MVC and other such opponents as the only real possibilities. However, I disagree with those that say we should never agree to the later home and home's because you never know what you are going to get. I know, take care of business in conference. Make the most of the early season tourneys. Maybe we get away with playing 1 true road game this year but I think that eventually bites us. I say make an educated guess on one of the MAC or MVC teams. Hopefully that team has a good season and it is an RPI boost. I also think there is some benefit received by playing a mediocre team on the road as preparation for the conference season. Get use to playing in place with little fan support like at many A10 arenas.
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Old 08-11-2015, 09:05 AM
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The Detroit game was a return game from the "Bracket Busters" two years ago.

Anyways, wasn't the rumor that UD and Wichita had both wanted a home/home a year or two ago, but the dates didn't work out?

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Old 08-11-2015, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
I also think there is some benefit received by playing a mediocre team on the road as preparation for the conference season. Get use to playing in place with little fan support like at many A10 arenas.
I was with you until that one. We did exactly that two years ago. We traveled to Illinois State and lost to a 18-16 team. Ouch.

There is only some "benefit" if we BEAT a mediocre team on the road.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:39 AM
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For those of you that keep saying just schedule a MAC school, let's look at some of the better teams in the MAC.

Buffalo- Lost coach and best player. Also had 3 players just arrested including best returning player. Came out of nowhere with a late run. Really struggled in OOC and early in MAC.

Bowling Green- First time won 20 games in 15 years. Loses best player to NBA. Coach and staff were fired, best returning player flunks out. Ended the regular season losing 4 of 5 only needed to win 2 to get double bye in MAC Tourney and then lost early in the tourney.

Toledo- Always is near the top on talent, always underachieves.

Ohio- Has been down since their Sweet 16 run. 3 Coaches in 5 years, have not had much talent since Cooper and Co left. Bad last year and will be worse this year.

Akron- Typically one of the better teams in the MAC, but similar to Toledo and seem to underachieve. Lost some questionable games late in the year.

Kent St- Have had a former MAC coach tell me they were the best team in the MAC last year. Struggled, and underachieved.

Central Michigan- The only team that would have been worth the gamble this year. Has a lot returning and a coach in Keno Davis who is trying to rebuild his reputation and will be gone at first chance. Risk scheduling a H&H and then Davis leaves and half the team transfers.

Eastern Michigan- Has won 20 games 3 straight years, but is totally reliant on transfers. Very up and down as far as performance. Will win some games they shouldn't and lose even more games they should win.

Miami- Has not been good at all since Cooper Retired.

What there screams H&H worthy?
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I was with you until that one. We did exactly that two years ago. We traveled to Illinois State and lost to a 18-16 team. Ouch.

There is only some "benefit" if we BEAT a mediocre team on the road.
Oh yeah. I forgot. in the 2013/14 season we lost to Illinois St on the road. That loss was really a dagger on the season. Certainly wouldn't want another repeat of a season like that.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:51 AM
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It always amazes me -- in all walks of life not just basketball -- that the people who insist they could do the job better sit safely behind a wall called "there is absolutely no chance I will ever have that job".

Some people half-arse their jobs and are not very good at them. Some players at UD fit that category. So yes, it's possible. But I try not to criticize too harshly when I've never done the job myself.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
For those of you that keep saying just schedule a MAC school, let's look at some of the better teams in the MAC.

Buffalo- Lost coach and best player. Also had 3 players just arrested including best returning player. Came out of nowhere with a late run. Really struggled in OOC and early in MAC.

Bowling Green- First time won 20 games in 15 years. Loses best player to NBA. Coach and staff were fired, best returning player flunks out. Ended the regular season losing 4 of 5 only needed to win 2 to get double bye in MAC Tourney and then lost early in the tourney.

Toledo- Always is near the top on talent, always underachieves.

Ohio- Has been down since their Sweet 16 run. 3 Coaches in 5 years, have not had much talent since Cooper and Co left. Bad last year and will be worse this year.

Akron- Typically one of the better teams in the MAC, but similar to Toledo and seem to underachieve. Lost some questionable games late in the year.

Kent St- Have had a former MAC coach tell me they were the best team in the MAC last year. Struggled, and underachieved.

Central Michigan- The only team that would have been worth the gamble this year. Has a lot returning and a coach in Keno Davis who is trying to rebuild his reputation and will be gone at first chance. Risk scheduling a H&H and then Davis leaves and half the team transfers.

Eastern Michigan- Has won 20 games 3 straight years, but is totally reliant on transfers. Very up and down as far as performance. Will win some games they shouldn't and lose even more games they should win.

Miami- Has not been good at all since Cooper Retired.

What there screams H&H worthy?
OK so if we can't get H/H with power 5 or the other elite non-power 5, what is your solution? Don't play on the road and just win all your games so it doesn't matter?
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:09 AM
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In addition to a mandatory return for a bracket buster game (which the A10 does not want it's members to participate in), the Detroit and Seton Hall games bring one more thing to the table. They are games the Shockers totally expect to win, they aren't playing up. And other than Detroit, the game is good enough it's not one with a bracket buster feel. Like a MAC team would be.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Total speculation that Gonzaga would want to play us twice, let alone three times. I've got $20 that says they have no interest playing us even once.

Not to belabor the thread (too late!), but I've got $20 that says they played St. Joe's once last season. I would consider St. Joe's at or near UD's peer group.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
OK so if we can't get H/H with power 5 or the other elite non-power 5, what is your solution? Don't play on the road and just win all your games so it doesn't matter?
I have been saying since the beginning of the thread to try and schedule MVC, MTN West and CUSA. Teams like Northern Iowa, Indiana State, Illinois State, Temple, SMU, New Mexico, and Wyoming. St. Louis just bought Indiana State for a game this year. Indiana State was 3rd last year in the MVC and returns a decent amount this year. Now do all these teams have interest in playing UD? I don't know. I know that Temple, SMU, and New Mexico have done a good job finding some P5 schools to play each year. So maybe there is not much interest from those schools. But I do know that some of them are in the same boat we are with regards to P5 schools.

I am also one that thinks the current system is working. Playing a Vandy (Who many think will be the second best team in the SEC this year), Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Alabama are good for us. Would I like to expand to other mid-tier P5 conferences? Yes, but right now it seems the SEC are the only teams willing to play us. Going on the road against these schools look good on the resume, and they are games that we have a good chance to win. If we are going to go on the road to play a team not in the top 100 or top 50, I'd rather play an Alabama on the road than Miami Oh.

Edit:

AAC not CUSA.

Last edited by m21eagle45; 08-11-2015 at 04:05 PM..
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  #590  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
OK so if we can't get H/H with power 5 or the other elite non-power 5, what is your solution? Don't play on the road and just win all your games so it doesn't matter?
The solution is exactly what UD is doing. Play well in your early season tourney, dominate at home, and do well in conference. That is the exact formula for a successful UD program right now.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Phi Psi Flyer '09 View Post
The solution is exactly what UD is doing. Play well in your early season tourney, dominate at home, and do well in conference. That is the exact formula for a successful UD program right now.

I think you're right to an extent, but let's look at last season:

1) Play well in your early season tourney - Check. Did that.

2) Dominate at home - Check. Did that.

3) Do well in conference - Check, as UD finished second in conference and made the conference tournament championship game.

And yet, UD was literally the last team into the Dance. Like, not the second to last, but The Last. If UConn had beaten SMU on Selection Sunday, UD would not have made the tournament (according to the Committee Chairman). Dance Card had us out, and they've only missed a few in the past few seasons. Yes, we can say we got unlucky because a few teams we scheduled did not turn out to be as good as we thought they would be, but still, that's a very close call for UD.

I think we will be a better team this year, though, so hopefully the "formula" serves us well enough.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
I think you're right to an extent, but let's look at last season:

1) Play well in your early season tourney - Check. Did that.

2) Dominate at home - Check. Did that.

3) Do well in conference - Check, as UD finished second in conference and made the conference tournament championship game.

And yet, UD was literally the last team into the Dance. Like, not the second to last, but The Last. If UConn had beaten SMU on Selection Sunday, UD would not have made the tournament (according to the Committee Chairman). Dance Card had us out, and they've only missed a few in the past few seasons. Yes, we can say we got unlucky because a few teams we scheduled did not turn out to be as good as we thought they would be, but still, that's a very close call for UD.

I think we will be a better team this year, though, so hopefully the "formula" serves us well enough.
One last very important item over which UD has no control and which hurt us last year - The entire A-10 needs to do well in their non-con games. Last year was a down year for the A-10 in terms of their non-con winning percentage. That has to improve. Last year's close call to make the dance was as much the fault of the A-10 as UD's schedule.
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  #593  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
One last very important item over which UD has no control and which hurt us last year - The entire A-10 needs to do well in their non-con games. Last year was a down year for the A-10 in terms of their non-con winning percentage. That has to improve. Last year's close call to make the dance was as much the fault of the A-10 as UD's schedule.

Concur. Hopefully last year was an anomaly for the A 10, but I "fear" (haha - for lack of a better word) that last year might be the new norm in the A 10 due to the defections, etc. Hope I'm wrong about that, and the A 10 comes back with a vengeance this season.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
I think you're right to an extent, but let's look at last season:

1) Play well in your early season tourney - Check. Did that.

2) Dominate at home - Check. Did that.

3) Do well in conference - Check, as UD finished second in conference and made the conference tournament championship game.

And yet, UD was literally the last team into the Dance. Like, not the second to last, but The Last. If UConn had beaten SMU on Selection Sunday, UD would not have made the tournament (according to the Committee Chairman). Dance Card had us out, and they've only missed a few in the past few seasons. Yes, we can say we got unlucky because a few teams we scheduled did not turn out to be as good as we thought they would be, but still, that's a very close call for UD.

I think we will be a better team this year, though, so hopefully the "formula" serves us well enough.
OK let's play that out.

After dismissing Dee and Dumb from the team on after the Arkansas drubbing (by 14) on 12/13, we were left with the following:

Boston - W (finished the year 13-17)
GTech - W (finished the year 12-19)
Ole Miss - W (finished the year 21-13)

But we're going to retroactively schedule the following:
1. Bucknell - finished the year 19-15, 13-5 in the Patriot league, lost in the 1st round of the NIT to Temple
2. Miami FL - finished the year 25-13, 10-8 in the ACC, lost championship of the NIT
3. Ole Miss

Dee and Dumb were dismissed on 12/18. With 2 days to prepare and with the team in disarray, plus a solid opponent in the arena on 12/20, Dayton's psyche is broken as Bucknell jumps out to an early lead and UD never recovers. Miami FL has agreed to come to the arena to start a 2:1, and soundly beats the Flyers as we still can't get our feet under us after the major shakeup of the team. Just for argument's sake, let's say we recover to still beat Ole Miss despite our shaken confidence and the feeling in the locker room that the season has been wasted.

With 2 road games needed to complete the series with Miami FL, our future schedule is now a mess for home opponents. And with our confidence shaken the rest of the A10 schedule suddenly looks very much in doubt.

Now, what's our ending record against the top 50 and top 100 last year?

And with a final record of 23-10 instead of 25-8, did we win enough games to get into the big tournament at all -- let alone "THE last team in"?

I think people continue to assume that if we swapped out Bucknell and Miami FL for Boston and GTech we would still be 25-8, and just have better wins under our belt. Yes, we beat Boise and Providence at the end of the season after we had made adjustments, but we never get the chance if we played the schedule game differently.

It's a crap shoot. You have to create the schedule that gives you the highest weighted average chance to get in.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Not to belabor the thread (too late!), but I've got $20 that says they played St. Joe's once last season. I would consider St. Joe's at or near UD's peer group.
In the NIT season tipoff tournament
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:35 PM
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Gazoo, your post is based on speculation. I'm dealing with facts.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Furio View Post
In the NIT season tipoff tournament

Bracket Buster return games, exempt tournaments, NIT preseason tipoff...whatever works. Bottom line is they got the games. Good for them.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Bracket Buster return games, exempt tournaments, NIT preseason tipoff...whatever works. Bottom line is they got the games. Good for them.
So we don't have games against Iowa, possibly ND, X, Wichita State?
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
So we don't have games against Iowa, possibly ND, X, Wichita State?

Yeah, those are good games. Well, if we beat Iowa. A loss to Iowa and we're probably looking at few remaining Top 25 or Top 50 win opportunities, though. Might need need to schedule some "Bracket Busters" moving forward LOL. Whatever gimmick they want to call it is fine with me.
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
Gazoo, your post is based on speculation. I'm dealing with facts.
It's a fact that we were in the NCAA tournament last year based on our excellent scheduling philosophy.

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
If UConn had beaten SMU on Selection Sunday blah blah blah
"If" they had?? You mean, a hypothetical, kind of like "if we had played tougher teams right after Dee and Dumb were dismissed"? It's a fact that UConn did not beat SMU on Selection Sunday.

If UConn had won, let's assume we were out. Fine.

If UD had played tougher competition during the shakiest point in the program's season, let's assume we would have had a much more difficult time winning those games. That's too much of a stretch to consider?
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