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  #1  
Old 12-17-2018, 03:23 PM
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Grant's 2nd Year versus Archie's 2nd Year and BG's 2nd year

Let's look at some facts about 2nd years (2005 BG, 2013 Archie, & 2019 Grant). 2nd year is a tough year as material roster changes and still implementing your system. Unfortunately, not much difference in year 2 among Gregory, Archie, and Grant in terms of top 50/100 win percentage or win percentage in close games. If anything Grant looks slightly better than the other two. I still have a concern about Grant's close game win % as he has 10+ years of below average while Archie is top tier. But Grant is recruiting better, has a better staff, and doing well in player development.

Record versus top 50 opponents (kenpom location adjusted for all #s)
Gregory = 0-6 (.000 winning percentage)
Archie = 1-6 (.142 winning percentage)
Grant = 1-4 (.200 winning percentage)

Record versus top 100 opponents
Gregory = 1-8 (.111)
Archie = 2-11 (.153)
Grant = 1-4 (.200)

Record versus 101+
Gregory = 17-3 (.850)
Archie = 15-3 (.833)
Grant = 4-1 (.800)

Record in close games (6 points or less)
Gregory = 5-3 (.625)
Archie = 2-10 (.166)
Grant = 1-1 (.500); add Ms St. and OK and 1-3 (.250)

Record in close games (6 points or less) versus top 100 opponents
Gregory = 1-2 (.333)
Archie = 1-9 (.100)
Grant = 1-0 (1.000); add Ms. St. and OK and 1-2 (.333)

The stretch of Butler (29), UVA (2), OK (30), MS St. (17), Auburn (12), and Tulsa (124) (6/7 games excluding Detroit) is the toughest stretch I can find in the last 17 years (kenpom started in 2002). Only comparable is A-10/NCAA 2014 with Richmond (91), St. Joe's (55), OSU (19), Syracuse (18), Stanford (34), FL (3) (6/7 games excluding Fordham). There is no other stretch even close to as difficult in the last 17 years.

Now onto some career stuff at UD.

Record in total A games during career (top 50 location adjusted)
Oliver = 5-13 (.277)
Gregory = 19-45 (.296)
Archie = 17-28 (.377)
Archie without 2014 = 10-24 (.294) *2014 outlier at 7-4*
AG = 2-7 (.222)

Record in A games (top 50 location adjusted), but only top 25 teams
Olivier = 3-8 (.272)
Gregory = 7-19 (.269)
Archie = 7-11 (.388)
Archie without 2014 = 3-8 (.272)
AG = 1-3 (.250)

My point is except for 2014 which was magical, Dayton wins about 30% of A games (top 50 location adjusted) and 27% of top 25 A games. Unfortunately, with the exception of 2014, that has not changed much under Olivier, Gregory, Archie, or Grant.

I looked at this quickly so might have made some small errors, but directional this is correct.
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:34 PM
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One more thing....

Archie in his 1st 2 years, went 37-27... Then in his 3rd year started 13-8 and 1-5 in the conference... people were wondering if he was the right guy for the job... and that season ended in the elite 8.

I've seen improvement from last year to this year and I think everyone agrees with a full roster and the talent coming, next year could be a special year.

I'd say just hold off, hopefully we make some noise in the conference this year and then take off in AG's 3rd year
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:57 PM
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There's a distinction between someone who's a 2nd year head coach vs someone in their 11th season

With the exception of 2014. Pretty big exception

Kenpom is great data point but it's one data point. Here's the bottom line

In 6 years at Dayton, Archie Miller made 4 straight NCAAs and won 5 games in tournament. In 10 years heading into 11 as a head coach Anthony Grant has never made consecutive NCAA tourneys and has won 1 game. His first year with Jeff Capel's players

If Dayton doesn't win the A10 tourney this year, Coach Grant has made 1 NCAA appearance in his last 8 years as a head coach. Do we need a 15 year sample size to make a determination on a coach?
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Old 12-17-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
There's a distinction between someone who's a 2nd year head coach vs someone in their 11th season

With the exception of 2014. Pretty big exception

Kenpom is great data point but it's one data point. Here's the bottom line

In 6 years at Dayton, Archie Miller made 4 straight NCAAs and won 5 games in tournament. In 10 years heading into 11 as a head coach Anthony Grant has never made consecutive NCAA tourneys and has won 1 game. His first year with Jeff Capel's players

If Dayton doesn't win the A10 tourney this year, Coach Grant has made 1 NCAA appearance in his last 8 years as a head coach. Do we need a 15 year sample size to make a determination on a coach?
I think each coaching stop comes with its own circumstances regardless of how many years experience you have as a head coach, so I think its possible to do well at one place and not at another for various reasons. Time will tell if he'll be successful at Dayton. I'm still giving him a chance for at least one more year.
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:45 PM
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I think UD is a top 25 team next year.

Who wants some koolaid?
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  #6  
Old 12-17-2018, 05:55 PM
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Every circumstance and year is different. Bill Belichick went 36-44 as head coach of the Browns, making the playoffs once. He become head coach of the Patriots in 2000 and went 5-11. The following year, they went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl. The year after that, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs, etc etc. So in 7 years, he went like 56-67. You know the rest of the story. That isn't to say that Grant is Belichick, it's just to say that regardless of what Grant did at Alabama and VCU doesn't mean he will be successful or unsuccessful at UD. Jimmy Johnson never had the success at Miami that he had in Dallas. There are plenty of college basketball teams where coaches had success at one school and didn't at another and vice-versa. If we wanted long-term success, I guess we should have hired Ray Harper.
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  #7  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:05 PM
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Archie year 1...20-12...rpi 81...nit

Archie year 2...17-14...Rpi 114


Grant year 1...14-17...rpi 147

Grant year 2...PROJECTED...20-11...rpi 67


http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_110_Men.html
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:06 PM
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Bottom line, the fan base wants wins and more NCAA appearances. To do so, the program has to win against top 50 teams more often and finish in the top 4 or higher in the league.

Ultimately, that is how Anthony will judged at UD.

The record of the coaches at the start of this thread shows that the program still needs to work harder to become an NCAA team every year. The coach is a very important part of the formula, but not the only part.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:15 PM
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Thanks for the work going into the original post in this thread. Pretty interesting. Of course this is all apples to oranges, but I think barring a total train wreck (see Stallings, Kevin) a new coach ought to get at least 3, if not 4 years to be judged. I agree with STF’s implication that some kind of succession plan would make coaching transitions much better.

Couple of thoughts: last year was *always* going to be a rebuilding year. Our record and overall performance was not as good as it should have been coming off four straight NCAA bids, but you could argue our recruiting wasn’t as good as it should have been coming off of four straight NCAA bids. I’m not going to bother going into specifics, and of course we had our best big man in 20 years tragically pass away which left a hole in the middle. Along these lines, for both last year and this year, Coach Grant is clearly playing the long game, and didn’t go for a “quicker fix” to rebuild the program. That’s probably a longer debate for some other thread.

One reason you need to give a coach a few years is so he can bring in more of “his” players. Look at the roster for this year, and we have 4 active guys who Grant recruited who are playing. We have 4 who he didn’t recruit, and one who sadly is injured and out for the year.

Look at who Grant has recruited here:

Jalen Crutcher. Has played heavy minutes, has been a reliable scoring option, is still young for a second year player, but I think he’s been very good and has a chance to be great.
Obi Toppin: Sat out last year of course, but has improved tremendously and is already garnering buzz as a possible NBA player down the road. Obviously has a lot to work on, but he’s shown lots of growth and has really exceeded expectations.
Dwayne Cohill: Highly regarded freshman, has shown good defensive skills and hustle, still growing into the college game. He has a lot of tools to be good; jury’s out on him 10 games into his college career, but he has a lot of talent.
Frankie Policelli: Grade: incomplete. Of course the plan was to redshirt him and instead he’s been playing a few minutes here and there. Tough to evaluate him at this time given how little he has played, and the circumstances regarding coming off a planned redshirt.
Jhery Matos: Was starting to show signs of being a very solid contributor on both sides of the ball. Willing passer, decent shooter, decent defender who could switch and guard multiple positions. He probably gets an incomplete grade too but I think he was on track to have a good season for us.

So we have our starting point guard, a redshirt freshman big who has been very good, a freshman guard who has been all right off the bench so far, a guy who was looking good but got hurt, and a guy who was going to redshirt but has been forced into some action without much to really evaluate.

Next year we add in three juniors who are sitting out, two of whom have played in the Big Ten, another guy who was a high-usage, best-player-on-a-bad-team guy in Chatman, a freshman big in Sissoko, plus another guy assuming we use the last scholarship. This year we have essentially a 7 man rotation, and one (1) starter and both bench guys are Grant recruits. Next year, we will have at least 9 Grant recruits on the team. I’m going to go ahead and suggest that judging a new coach is better done when 9 or 10 of 13 guys are his recruits rather than 4 of 8 (when the 4th is a guy who was forced into action after a season-ending injury to another guy).

So it is totally fair to say that the coach didn’t have to construct the roster this way, with three transfers, one open scholarship, and one freshman who was probably better served sitting. I think we can all agree that some roster turnover was necessary. I’m not going to bash any former Flyers, but some guys had to go if we wanted to move forward quickly.

To me, it seems very clear that Coach Grant has a plan of how he wants to build the program, and is executing that plan with the blessing of the athletic department, knowing that we might take some lumps early on but it’ll pay off down the road. By down the road, I mean the 2019-20 and 2020-21 seasons (and hopefully beyond). I’m not giving up on this season, but before the year, I mostly just wanted to see improvement and thought we might make some noise if we could stay healthy. Well, we didn’t stay healthy. Again, the outcome of this season is on the coach; he chose to construct the 2018-19 roster this way. I personally think it will be best in the long run, but reasonable people can disagree.

Anyway, I think we are far better than last year, even if our record isn’t much better to date. I think we will be really good next year, and hopefully for the foreseeable future after that. To the original point of the thread, none of the last three coaches have been very good right off the bat, particularly against better competition. My main point is that I think it is best to wait a little to judge a new coach, especially when he hasn’t had a chance to bring in many of his guys.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
There's a distinction between someone who's a 2nd year head coach vs someone in their 11th season

With the exception of 2014. Pretty big exception

Kenpom is great data point but it's one data point. Here's the bottom line

In 6 years at Dayton, Archie Miller made 4 straight NCAAs and won 5 games in tournament. In 10 years heading into 11 as a head coach Anthony Grant has never made consecutive NCAA tourneys and has won 1 game. His first year with Jeff Capel's players

If Dayton doesn't win the A10 tourney this year, Coach Grant has made 1 NCAA appearance in his last 8 years as a head coach. Do we need a 15 year sample size to make a determination on a coach?
Someone with more time than I have can compare this to say....Bruce Pearl. Would be an interesting contrast. Of course, he tends to leave programs under ahem, questionable circumstances.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
There's a distinction between someone who's a 2nd year head coach vs someone in their 11th season

With the exception of 2014. Pretty big exception

Kenpom is great data point but it's one data point. Here's the bottom line

In 6 years at Dayton, Archie Miller made 4 straight NCAAs and won 5 games in tournament. In 10 years heading into 11 as a head coach Anthony Grant has never made consecutive NCAA tourneys and has won 1 game. His first year with Jeff Capel's players

If Dayton doesn't win the A10 tourney this year, Coach Grant has made 1 NCAA appearance in his last 8 years as a head coach. Do we need a 15 year sample size to make a determination on a coach?
Also, a rehab, is a rehab, no matter who the coach is. We are in full rebuild.
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Old 12-17-2018, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Every circumstance and year is different. Bill Belichick went 36-44 as head coach of the Browns, making the playoffs once. He become head coach of the Patriots in 2000 and went 5-11. The following year, they went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl. The year after that, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs, etc etc. So in 7 years, he went like 56-67. You know the rest of the story. That isn't to say that Grant is Belichick, it's just to say that regardless of what Grant did at Alabama and VCU doesn't mean he will be successful or unsuccessful at UD. Jimmy Johnson never had the success at Miami that he had in Dallas. There are plenty of college basketball teams where coaches had success at one school and didn't at another and vice-versa. If we wanted long-term success, I guess we should have hired Ray Harper.
Is there one coach who was fired from a power conference and went down the mid-major level and had the kind of success Dayton is looking for?

Exempting guys like Steve Fischer who wasn't fired over wins and losses. I'm hard pressed to think of a single coach who was fired over performance and went down a level and won big

Looking at our own league Paul Hewitt and Steve Lappas fell on their faces. Hewitt went to an NCAA title game and was pumping out NBA players
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is there one coach who was fired from a power conference and went down the mid-major level and had the kind of success Dayton is looking for?

Exempting guys like Steve Fischer who wasn't fired over wins and losses. I'm hard pressed to think of a single coach who was fired over performance and went down a level and won big

Looking at our own league Paul Hewitt and Steve Lappas fell on their faces. Hewitt went to an NCAA title game and was pumping out NBA players
Could argue we are the South Carolina of CBB. To your point, Lou Holtz and Steve Spurrier couldn’t get football to the next level there. Seems that we are looking for a very hard to find combination. A coach that can sustain success and not want the job to be a stepping stone. That was likely the AD’s thoughts in hiring AG. We’ll see.
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is there one coach who was fired from a power conference and went down the mid-major level and had the kind of success Dayton is looking for?
Tommy Ammaker is close. Dispatched from Michigan, goes to Harvard and gets his team to an NIT and then four straight NCAA tourneys in his first seven-eight years. Has fallen off a bit since then. But I wouldn’t argue that there are many like him or Steve Fisher.

Two more, though: Steve Alford. Dumped at Iowa, then has six seasons at New Mexico with three NITs and three NCAAs. Gets him back to a power conference at UCLA. And Ralph Willard, dumped at Pitt and goes to Holy Cross, getting one NIT and four NCAA tourneys (three of those back-to-back-to-back) in eight seasons.

Going back quite a few years, Gene Bartow had tremendous success at UAB after leaving UCLA.

Last edited by The Fly; 12-18-2018 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
But Grant is recruiting better, has a better staff, and doing well in player development.
I don't think that I agree with any of that.

Again, I want the program to be as good or better than it was under Archie, and I know that that is a high bar, but I am not ok with regressing.

Last edited by ud2; 12-17-2018 at 11:17 PM..
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Every circumstance and year is different. Bill Belichick went 36-44 as head coach of the Browns, making the playoffs once. He become head coach of the Patriots in 2000 and went 5-11. The following year, they went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl. The year after that, they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs, etc etc. So in 7 years, he went like 56-67. You know the rest of the story. That isn't to say that Grant is Belichick, it's just to say that regardless of what Grant did at Alabama and VCU doesn't mean he will be successful or unsuccessful at UD. Jimmy Johnson never had the success at Miami that he had in Dallas. There are plenty of college basketball teams where coaches had success at one school and didn't at another and vice-versa. If we wanted long-term success, I guess we should have hired Ray Harper.
Don't agree with the Belichick reference, you could argue that the Browns fired him after only 1 bad year after making the playoffs. Perhaps they never should have fired him. And he went 9-7 after the first SB, then went to back-to-back SB's.

Grant's time at VCU and Alabama is very relevant IMO.

And don't agree with the Jimmy Johnson reference either. He did great in his final 4 years at Miami, he won a national championship in those 4 years too. Only lost 4 games in those final 4 years.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Tommy Ammaker is close. Dispatched from Michigan, goes to Harvard and gets his team to an NIT and then four straight NCAA tourneys in his first seven-eight years. Has fallen off a bit since then. But I wouldn’t argue that there are many like him or Steve Fisher.

Two more, though: Steve Alford. Dumped at Indiana, then has six seasons at New Mexico with three NITs and three NCAAs. Gets him back to a power conference at UCLA. And Ralph Willard, dumped at Pitt and goes to Holy Cross, getting one NIT and four NCAA tourneys (three of those back-to-back-to-back) in eight seasons.

Going back quite a few years, Gene Bartow had tremendous success at UAB after leaving UCLA.
Amaker is a good example. Bartow did fine at UCLA. Alford did fairly well at Iowa.

Maybe add one more, Greg McDermott, the Creighton hc. Started off well at Northern Iowa, floundered at Iowa State and was fired, then did well at Creighton. So, a McDermott-type recovery/turnaround/rebirth is what we are hoping for with Grant IMO.

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Old 12-17-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Tommy Ammaker is close. Dispatched from Michigan, goes to Harvard and gets his team to an NIT and then four straight NCAA tourneys in his first seven-eight years. Has fallen off a bit since then. But I wouldn’t argue that there are many like him or Steve Fisher.

Two more, though: Steve Alford. Dumped at Indiana, then has six seasons at New Mexico with three NITs and three NCAAs. Gets him back to a power conference at UCLA. And Ralph Willard, dumped at Pitt and goes to Holy Cross, getting one NIT and four NCAA tourneys (three of those back-to-back-to-back) in eight seasons.

Going back quite a few years, Gene Bartow had tremendous success at UAB after leaving UCLA.
Got another one from awhile ago, with another Creighton connection: Dana Altman (though he left Kansas State of his own accord in 1994 to take the Creighton job). In his first 3 seasons in Omaha, his combined record was 36-49, with no higher than a 5th Place finish in the MVC in any of those years. Then, in Year 4, his Blue Jays went 18-10, and he’s had fairly consistent success ever since.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I don't think that I agree with any of that.

Again, I want the program to be as good or better than it was under Archie, and I know that that is a high bar, but I am not ok with regressing.
I need to disagree slightly with your disagreement. On the recruiting side, Grant is at least landing some higher-rated recruits than Archie was able to get. Whether he and his staff develop them better than the guys of Archie’s era (DMO, Scoochie, Sibert, and Big Steve, just to name a few) remains to be seen, but some of the early returns (Obi, Trey, Crutch) are promising. And whether AG’s assistants are better or not also remains to be seen, but they certainly have much more experience and some very solid credentials.

To summarize: I think recruiting is better (at least, on the surface), I think player development may not be quite as good as it was under Archie (but it’s leaps and bounds ahead of where it was with BG), and assistant coaches are at least much more experienced than the ones who served under Archie.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Got another one from awhile ago, with another Creighton connection: Dana Altman (though he left Kansas State of his own accord in 1994 to take the Creighton job). In his first 3 seasons in Omaha, his combined record was 36-49, with no higher than a 5th Place finish in the MVC in any of those years. Then, in Year 4, his Blue Jays went 18-10, and he’s had fairly consistent success ever since.
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Alford and Altman weren't fired
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Amaker is a good example. Bartow did fine at UCLA. Alford did fairly well at Iowa.

Maybe add one more, Greg McDermott, the Creighton hc. Started off well at Northern Iowa, floundered at Iowa State and was fired, then did well at Creighton. So, a McDermott-type recovery/turnaround/rebirth is what we are hoping for with Grant IMO.
McDermott left Iowa State after 4 years to take Creighton
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Alford and Altman weren't fired
A) I didn’t say anything about Alford.
B) I did say that Altman left K-State of his own accord.
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Old 12-18-2018, 12:35 AM
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THirt with the win on this thread. He covered all aspects and sides on the issue. One of the better posts I have seen in some time on here.

I will say, that regardless of the style, recruits, players on the floor, toughness of competition, etc...One of Grant's items of concern will be the ability to close out tight games, no matter who the competition is. I don't have that concern just yet, but the naysayers of the Grant train are already headed down that path. I am hoping the short bench, fairly young team, etc is the reason. If next season we aren't closing out the tight games, there may be cause for concern.

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Old 12-18-2018, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
McDermott left Iowa State after 4 years to take Creighton
Yep, you are right, he resigned from ISU, he was not fired, my bad.

Amaker is still a fairly good example I guess, but Harvard is clearly not at Dayton's level in terms of basketball, and the Ivy League is way below the A10 in terms of basketball.
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
THirt with the win on this thread. He covered all aspects and sides on the issue. One of the better posts I have seen in some time on here.

I will say, that regardless of the style, recruits, players on the floor, toughness of competition, etc...One of Grant's items of concern will be the ability to close out tight games, no matter who the competition is. I don't have that concern just yet, but the naysayers of the Grant train are already headed down that path. I am hoping the short bench, fairly young team, etc is the reason. If next season we aren't closing out the tight games, there may be cause for concern.
Totally agree...jury is still out on AG's game management. Too many "circumstances" so far (last year's poison, this year's short bench). Regardless, you have to coach to what you have and I have to admit to having doubts this year!
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:33 AM
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McDermott resigned before he was fired. But make no mistake Iowa State was encouraging him to find employment elsewhere. He pre-emptively left to avoid being damaged goods.
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:06 AM
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And Alford was on the hot seat at Iowa for defending a player accused of rape. He wasn’t fired, but the administration didn’t put up much of a fight to keep him.
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is there one coach who was fired from a power conference and went down the mid-major level and had the kind of success Dayton is looking for?

Exempting guys like Steve Fischer who wasn't fired over wins and losses. I'm hard pressed to think of a single coach who was fired over performance and went down a level and won big

Looking at our own league Paul Hewitt and Steve Lappas fell on their faces. Hewitt went to an NCAA title game and was pumping out NBA players
If Tulsa goes on to have a good year this year and makes the NCAA tourney does Frank Haith fit this model?
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is there one coach who was fired from a power conference and went down the mid-major level and had the kind of success Dayton is looking for?
Ben Howland from UCLA to MSU (not a mid-major, but definitely a step down) seems to be doing well.

Add Tom Penders to the list of P5 coaches who sunk in the A-10, though.
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
If Tulsa goes on to have a good year this year and makes the NCAA tourney does Frank Haith fit this model?
He has done at least fairly well at Miami, Missouri, and Tulsa. He had NCAA violations at both Miami and Mizzou. Might have been under some pressure at Mizzou because of that IMO.
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:20 AM
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Should have quoted the posters but to lazy to read back through.

I can’t see giving a coach 4 years to show what they can do at UD. 3 years max. We are not in a position like the blue bloods to take a couple of years off, make a hiring change, and become relevant again. Schools like UD become irrelevant we get passed up for new conferences, 3* players, and relegated to cbi. Big conferences and media look for anyway to bury a school like UD (from conference like A10) so we can’t compete and steal bids.

Second is McDermott. Someone is please tell me how he has been successful other than the fact he recruited his own son? What has he done in tournament? Nothing but flame out each year
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Old 12-19-2018, 10:53 AM
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I hate waiting but the truth is, for a coach coming to a school, who hasn't been coaching college for awhile, you've got to give him sufficient time to build up recruiting contacts, both with recruits as well as coaches. Sometimes coaches have been watching a kid from as early as middle school, but usually at least 9th or 10th grade. To suddenly come in and have to start from scratch is difficult. Even if your assistants were watching kids, they were likely doing it for other schools, and now you have to start selling your new school. It's a challenge and frankly, I think the fact that AG has been able to recruit some pretty great talent this quickly is a plus. But we still have to get the commits, and a coach doesn't have his own full team until year 4, so it's pretty challenging to do it in 2 or 3, especially at a mid-major. Maybe if we had a different coach who came from another college it might be different, but Grant's selection made it more challenging with him not being in the college ranks for awhile.
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Old 12-19-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
He has done at least fairly well at Miami, Missouri, and Tulsa. He had NCAA violations at both Miami and Mizzou. Might have been under some pressure at Mizzou because of that IMO.
Haith went to one NCAA at Miami in seven seasons and one NCAA at Missou in two seasons. AG went to two NCAA in three seasons at VCU and one NCAA in six seasons at Alabama. AG gets blasted for not going to the NCAA enough at his previous stops making him a bad hire at UD but for Frank Haith it is considered that he did fairly well at his previous stops. Hmmmm seems to me we are harder on our coach than we are on others. Maybe the grass really isn't always greener on the other side.

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Old 12-19-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Haith went to one NCAA at Miami in seven seasons and one NCAA at Missou in two seasons. AG went to two NCAA in three seasons at VCU and one NCAA in six seasons at Alabama. AG gets blasted for not going to the NCAA enough at his previous stops making him a bad hire at UD but for Frank Haith it is considered that he did fairly well at his previous stops. Hmmmm seems to me we are harder on our coach than we are on others. Maybe the grass really isn't always greener on the other side.
Look at Haith's run at Miami in the context of the program's historical results, he did fairly well there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miam...sion_I_in_1985


And Haith had 2 NCAAT's in 3 years at Mizzou, again, pretty good.


And his record so far in context at Tulsa is pretty good too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuls...cord_by_season





I feel like AG should have done better at Alabama, considering the historical context of Alabama's results. Look at the year-to-year results, there is a dip during AG's tenure.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/alabama/



But, AG did do well at VCU, no question. Everybody wanted AG when he was at VCU, hopefully we get the VCU-type results.

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Old 12-19-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Ben Howland from UCLA to MSU (not a mid-major, but definitely a step down) seems to be doing well.

Add Tom Penders to the list of P5 coaches who sunk in the A-10, though.
Howland is in the same category as Rick Barnes and Tom Crean to me

Fired from a power conference job but they did well enough to get a second chance at lesser power conference job. All three of those guys had success but not up to the standards that those schools expected, right or wrong

Those guys did enough that they didn't have to go down to the mid-major level to rehabilitate their careers
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Look at Haith's run at Miami in the context of the program's historical results, he did fairly well there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miam...sion_I_in_1985


And Haith had 2 NCAAT's in 3 years at Mizzou, again, pretty good.


And his record so far in context at Tulsa is pretty good too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuls...cord_by_season





I feel like AG should have done better at Alabama, considering the historical context of Alabama's results. Look at the year-to-year results, there is a dip during AG's tenure.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/alabama/



But, AG did do well at VCU, no question. Everybody wanted AG when he was at VCU, hopefully we get the VCU-type results.
Haith got out of Missouri because the trend wasn't his friend there. He was working his way to the hot seat
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Old 12-19-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And Haith had 2 NCAAT's in 3 years at Mizzou, again, pretty good.

I feel like AG should have done better at Alabama, considering the historical context of Alabama's results. Look at the year-to-year results, there is a dip during AG's tenure.
My mistake on Mizzou, he did make two NCAA's.

I feel like Haith should have done better at Miami given they had just gone twice in the previous four years.

Someone asked if there was other coaches that were similar to AG who did not do well at a major but then succeeded at a mid major. I contend that Haith is in a very similar situation if he can succeed at Tulsa. Hopefully AG will succeed at UD.
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Old 12-19-2018, 03:50 PM
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What we all want is a coach who can come in and win immediately. In fact we had one. He not only had a winning record but won the league title and advanced in the NCAA tournament. Ah the memories, short lived of course but just can't tell what a coach will be from just a year or two. JOB bring back any memories or nightmares for anyone.

I may be in the minority here but I don't feel he was a bad coach, just lacked the pipeline to HS recruits coming from the pro ranks. And those he did get were unproductive to say the least.

Makes me appreciate our program as it is. My projectory for the program is upwards.
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  #39  
Old 12-19-2018, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
Should have quoted the posters but to lazy to read back through.

I can’t see giving a coach 4 years to show what they can do at UD. 3 years max. We are not in a position like the blue bloods to take a couple of years off, make a hiring change, and become relevant again. Schools like UD become irrelevant we get passed up for new conferences, 3* players, and relegated to cbi. Big conferences and media look for anyway to bury a school like UD (from conference like A10) so we can’t compete and steal bids
While I think that strong opinions can be formed after 3 years, to axe coaches after 3 is setting up a program for long term failure. Recruits want stability just as much as success. Becoming a revolving door would hammer a program like UD.
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  #40  
Old 12-20-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
My mistake on Mizzou, he did make two NCAA's.

I feel like Haith should have done better at Miami given they had just gone twice in the previous four years.

Someone asked if there was other coaches that were similar to AG who did not do well at a major but then succeeded at a mid major. I contend that Haith is in a very similar situation if he can succeed at Tulsa. Hopefully AG will succeed at UD.
Fair enough. I agree that he could have done better, but he did fairly well. Alabama has a much stronger history than Miami pre-Larranaga, and Larranaga might have been cheating at Miami as he might be caught up in the ongoing FBI investigation.

It kind of seems like Miami might have an organizational culture problem whereby the organizational environment is fostering cheating. First Haith getting caught, and now Larranaga maybe being caught.

And I would argue that Tulsa is a much tougher job than UD IMO.

Last edited by ud2; 12-20-2018 at 09:29 AM..
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