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  #1  
Old 11-19-2017, 06:30 PM
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What's worse the offense or the defense?

Is it just me, or the offense has "no plan"
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:34 PM
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too many 3 att
no patience on Off
too many fouls due to poor D
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:39 PM
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Defense is worse.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:40 PM
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Halloween is over. Did they play like a JoB team on purpose?

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Old 11-19-2017, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Is it just me, or the offense has "no plan"
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I think we have a plan, but Josh and Darrell are the only ones that can execute it.
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:59 PM
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Flyer "D" is Terrible

We have no All-Americans on the rosters of our first 4 opponents. Yet UD's poor man to man defense created several All Americans. This team is slow footed and uninterested in playing competent half court man to man defense. They do much better in zone. UD also has shown very weak guards (other than DD) at both ends of the court. This team should focus on inside out offense. XW should not shoot treys until the ball goes inside first. Crosby and Crutcher need to work on their dribble penetration and dishing. They need to review the tape of Negele Knight's senior year and learn the drills he used to lead the Flyers on an NCAA run. DD is our best off the dribble at penetration and dish and last year he was a turnover machine off the dribble. UD must find their identity and I would ask this question. Are the Flyers stronger on the perimeter or inside with the bigs. I would argue for the latter. Get the bigs more involved in the offense with good passes from the guards and play zone, zone, zone.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:01 PM
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I didn't see the game today but it's been obvious to me the previous games that they just aren't trying to get the ball inside. So many times I've seen XW and Josh hand the ball off at the key and are headed inside wide open in paint to drive in(mainly on the left) and Crosby or Crutcher or whoever turn around toward the right and look for someone else to pass to outside. When you have Josh Cunningham, it's a travesty not to be looking inside.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:15 PM
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Ball rotation is one way to get a shot. But, most if not all will agree that a pass inside to a big and then right back out provides the best way to convert three balls. I would like to see some trips down the floor when no one jacks up a three until at least one inside/out pass combination is completed.
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:20 PM
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The doffense.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:26 PM
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Defense got them back into the Hofstra game. Defense and rebounding beat OU. Lack of defense and lack of rebounding hurts them at all other times.

Offense in puzzling. I don't understand the ill advised shots. This is college...not the NBA. Shot creation and pulling the trigger anytime you are open won't work at a consistent clip for this team. It seems the offensive principle is to fire it anytime you get an open look.

DD is thriving on the offensive end as he is simply playing ball. I am pretty sure these guys could play open gym ball and have the same offensive success.

I understand these guys are young and the expectations are tempered...but it is hard to do the best you can with what you have if you aren't playing smart basketball that has a plan.

These guys have a ton of work to do and the young guys are VERY promising. This team will struggle unless DD, XW, and Cunningham come out to play every single game. This was the first game I saw visible frustration with XW and also what appeared to be visible conflict between guys on the floor after miscommunication or simply a bad play. That can't happen.
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:32 PM
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Or is it the coaching
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Or is it the coaching
Hate to go down that path so soon...but in game schemes and decisions seem to be a common criticism in the past...
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I am pretty sure these guys could play open gym ball and have the same offensive success.

This was the first game I saw visible frustration with XW and also what appeared to be visible conflict between guys on the floor after miscommunication or simply a bad play. That can't happen.
This is what I saw at Alabama: no clear plan/streetball on offense, which leads to frustration.

Has the AG UD offensive scheme changed at all vs. what he ran at Alabama?

I just fear that AG will have the same problems that BG had: players stop believing in the coach's system/schemes, players get frustrated because the system/schemes are not working/the team is losing, and eventually the players give up/quit playing hard.

Team chemistry gets all screwed up, and bad mojo starts surrounding the program/the coach has lost the team. We saw these type of things at various points of BG's tenure and at the end of BG's tenure.

Last edited by ud2; 11-19-2017 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:32 PM
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Yes............
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:35 PM
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One thing that I noticed on the offensive side is that everyone was on the perimeter. There were no cuts to the hoop; no high/low; and little or no dribble penetration. I am hoping that is a factor of having inexperienced players and not a lack of an offensive scheme. Defensively, we have faced four teams with very good guard play...and we cannot stop dribble penetration or the kick-outs.
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Old 11-19-2017, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Hate to go down that path so soon...but in game schemes and decisions seem to be a common criticism in the past...
Yep, too soon to go down that path. You know why, because we all know that no matter what, we're married to Anthony Grant at least 3 seasons and probably more.

This was the most important coaching hire in over 50 years. If it does turn into a debacle, everything AM built this program up to will crumble and we'll be back to 2011. If all of AG's past perceived failings shows up here, Neil Sullivan will go down as the single biggest destroyer of UD's basketball program in our history and deservedly so.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:13 PM
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Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, but I think I saw some attempts at a few pick and roll plays over the past few games. The man who set the pick then peeled toward the basket, was open, and was looking for a return pass, but the play was not quite executed. Just tantalizing. I hope they review the videos and show where some great opportunities to go quickly inside were missed. I have a gut feeling that AG wants more pick and roll plays, but the players are not yet up to speed with it.

Hope there's at least that much of a plan on offense...
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:31 PM
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Defense. Two games I a row some random gets a career best game. Seems like most games this year we have let two guys continuously beat us and we cannot key on them. We will get it together, but it's hard to watch at times.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
If all of AG's past perceived failings shows up here, Neil Sullivan will go down as the single biggest destroyer of UD's basketball program in our history and deservedly so.
If AG does not work out, then we should have hired Dave Harper as AD...DH assisted Tim Wabler with the brilliant AM hire, and DH miraculously lured Keith Dambrot from Akron to Duquesne. Bring DH back to UD, if AG does not work out, or try to get TW to come out of retirement, if AG does not work out.

Neil has to go, or be reassigned elsewhere, if AG does not work out.

Last edited by ud2; 11-19-2017 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:40 PM
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This was the right hire. We have 6 first year players on the roster essentially. Lets hope for an NIT berth.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yep, too soon to go down that path. You know why, because we all know that no matter what, we're married to Anthony Grant at least 3 seasons and probably more.

This was the most important coaching hire in over 50 years.
Which is why I don't want to go down that path...and it is WAYYY too early to even consider.

But...previous observations definitely weigh on the opinions of today in terms of offensive efficiency.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfan4life View Post
This was the right hire. We have 6 first year players on the roster essentially. Lets hope for an NIT berth.
The young guys will develop into really good ball players. The talent is there.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:45 PM
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The defense was offensive....to me. There was zero fight in the Flyers tonight. UD was interested in running around a gym like shoot around style; but they definitely did not want to play another team. That seem like too much work for the Flyers tonight. They weren't interested.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:46 PM
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Alabama all over again?

So far this team is looking a lot like the Alabama teams we regularly beat when you know who coached there.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:48 PM
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Ouch!
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:51 PM
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4 games in and Grant isn't going to work out.

You guys are un- freaking- believable.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:53 PM
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Agree priceg75! Relax everbody!
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:55 PM
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Archie Miller left the cupboard freaking bare. We have like 6 first year players and he tried to poach our best recruit.

And might i remind you, he didn't make the postseason until year 3.

So get a grip, seriously.

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Old 11-19-2017, 11:12 PM
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Jordan Davis must get more minutes. He has earned 'em. He does not scare easily. Has great poise for a 1st year player.
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Old 11-19-2017, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Archie Miller left the cupboard freaking bare. We have like 6 first year players and he tried to poach our best recruit.

And might i remind you, he didn't make the postseason until year 3.

So get a grip, seriously.
LOL. Cupboard bare? Give me a fricken break. You know when the cupboard was bare? In 2014-2015 when we had 1 senior, 1 junior, 3 sophs, 1 freshman and 1 walkon playing. We won 2 NCAA games that season. This season we have 1 senior, 3 juniors, 1 sophomore and 5 Freshman(1 who's a redshirt and practiced half a season with the team and the other who's 21 and played in Europe). Cupboard might be bare to you, but it ain't near as bare as our 2nd most successful season in the past 32.

Oh yeah, on top of that he left him Miller and Mikesell, not like Archie knew they wouldn't be playing this season.

Oh the apologists are starting already.

Oh and one more thing, Archie made it to the post season his first season, look it up.

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Old 11-20-2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
LOL. Cupboard bare? Give me a fricken break. You know when the cupboard was bare? In 2014-2015 when we had 1 senior, 1 junior, 3 sophs, 1 freshman and 1 walkon playing. We won 2 NCAA games that season. This season we have 1 senior, 3 juniors, 1 sophomore and 5 Freshman(1 who's a redshirt and practiced half a season with the team and the other who's 21 and played in Europe). Cupboard might be bare to you, but it ain't near as bare as our 2nd most successful season in the past 32.
You know who left him that bare cupboard? Archie Miller.

Oh yeah, on top of that he left him Miller and Mikesell, not like Archie knew they wouldn't be playing this season.
I don't understand your point here. These are just bad circumstances that will make this season that much tougher but aren't anybody's fault.

Oh the apologists are starting already.
Quit being a jacka$$.

Oh and one more thing, Archie made it to the post season his first season, look it up.
Got one thing right tonight, so congratulations.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
You know who left him that bare cupboard? Archie Miller.



I don't understand your point here. These are just bad circumstances that will make this season that much tougher but aren't anybody's fault.

Archie left him: Davis, Cunningham, Williams,
Landers, Crosby, Miller and Mikesell plus 6 freshman to try and hold onto where Grant was able to hold onto 4 of them. Hardly bare. So when you say Archie left him with a bare cupboard, you're lying.


Quit being a jacka$$.

Not being. Being truthful. With my earlier statements there were "ifs" inserted. You then come back with "AM left him a bare cupboard" and also say it's too early to evaluate Grant. I agree it's too early but you're already making excuses just in case because you are an apologist that defends and will continue to defend Grant at every turn while for some reason placing the blame on one of the greatest, most successful Flyers coaches in history.



Got one thing right tonight, so congratulations.
Got it all right, see I'm not an apologist, but I can honestly say that nobody believes that these players would look so inept on defense if Archie was still coaching them, hence an early coaching problem.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:41 AM
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We should remember the defense played during Archie’s first two years. There were a number of games in which UD gave up over 50 points in a half. Year two was especially ugly. Archie changed the defensive system and either the players could not adjust or buy into it or both.

I see confusion and communications issue on defense so far. Some of that has to be attributed to new players and new system. Some has also to be attributed to some players who are not tough on defense.

When a coach is first hired, the adjustments can be tough on the team, especially if the team not does not have world class talent.

The play of the team has not been pretty so far. Anthony has stated several times that the team is far behind where it should be.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:49 AM
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Save the Titanic!!!

Dayton's defensive efficiency improved each year under AM.

2012 = 158th
2013 = 145th
2014 = 72nd
2015 = 31st
2016 = 15th


Although UD made the NIT in AM's first season (20-13/9-7), they played like hot garbage against Iowa in the first round. What's my point? Let's give CAG a little time (i.e. more than 4 games) to implement his style of play before we send the Coast Guard to look for the sinking Titanic. Collectively, "we" do this EVERY.SINGLE.TIME UD has a new coach. UD is a young team and the guys they are relying on don't have a ton of collegiate experience (other than DD and JC). It is going to take some time to get comfortable with AG's system.

Patience!!
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:58 AM
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I’m guessing turning on the team and the coach after four games isn’t what folks are referring to when they talk about UD’s great fan base and tradition.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:12 AM
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Some of these comments remind me of those who called AM the worst coach ever in 2014 after we lost 4 straight in conference. We all know how that turned out. I said it then and I'll say it again, its a marathon, not a sprint.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:37 AM
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Jump off a Cliff

I think UD should build a tower in the Arena parking lot whenever there is a coaching change so that in times like this (early in the new HC's first, second or third season) those that want to can climb it and jump off the cliff.

It would / could be a fundraiser for those that stay behind the coach and the team!
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yep, too soon to go down that path. You know why, because we all know that no matter what, we're married to Anthony Grant at least 3 seasons and probably more.

This was the most important coaching hire in over 50 years. If it does turn into a debacle, everything AM built this program up to will crumble and we'll be back to 2011. If all of AG's past perceived failings shows up here, Neil Sullivan will go down as the single biggest destroyer of UD's basketball program in our history and deservedly so.
Wow. Could it also spark the North Korean's as well? You definitely need a Flyer win!
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dnutz77 View Post
Dayton's defensive efficiency improved each year under AM.

2012 = 158th
2013 = 145th
2014 = 72nd
2015 = 31st
2016 = 15th


Although UD made the NIT in AM's first season (20-13/9-7), they played like hot garbage against Iowa in the first round. What's my point? Let's give CAG a little time (i.e. more than 4 games) to implement his style of play before we send the Coast Guard to look for the sinking Titanic. Collectively, "we" do this EVERY.SINGLE.TIME UD has a new coach. UD is a young team and the guys they are relying on don't have a ton of collegiate experience (other than DD and JC). It is going to take some time to get comfortable with AG's system.

Patience!!
Agree. I had hopes that we'd hit the ground running and even have an outside shot at an at-large invite. That's not our team today. It's going to take time for the team to gel and frankly for Coach Grant to get his players coached up. It may get worse before it gets better.

I'm fine with CAG giving the freshman lots of minutes, getting thru the growing pains and lets see what we can do at the A-10T. If nothing else, we'd be far better prepared for next season. May not be fair to DD (who has amazed me so far) but he's getting tons of playing time to show his stuff, and the advantage of being in the A10 is that we can win that **** tournament.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:32 AM
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I maintain that AG should get at least 3 years, but if things don't get turned around in the next year or two, then I think you might see some players start to transfer out in search of a better opportunity elsewhere. I hope that does not happen.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
Agree. I had hopes that we'd hit the ground running and even have an outside shot at an at-large invite. That's not our team today. It's going to take time for the team to gel and frankly for Coach Grant to get his players coached up. It may get worse before it gets better.

I'm fine with CAG giving the freshman lots of minutes, getting thru the growing pains and lets see what we can do at the A-10T. If nothing else, we'd be far better prepared for next season. May not be fair to DD (who has amazed me so far) but he's getting tons of playing time to show his stuff, and the advantage of being in the A10 is that we can win that **** tournament.
I love the freshman class we have! I would like to see Kostas start but some have suggested that his conditioning is preventing him from more minutes. I agree some players are showing a lack of effort but he is not one of them! What Baby D has done up to this point is almost miraculous as opposed to last season and it is clear that he and Josh are going to be the leaders on this team. X is a good free throw shooter and needs to get to the line more. The only way to do that is to take the ball hard to the basket (like Hofsta and ODU did to us) and draw fouls. X could average double figures and seeing the free throws go in the basket may break him out of his 3 point shooting slump!

The learning curve is always going to be rough. We need to be patient and let both the team and CAG learn from their mistakes. AM made mistakes and he figured it out! Sometimes it takes players till their senior year (Devin Oliver and Darrell Davis) to have the freedom necessary to reach their full potential. Others sooner.

I for one will be happy if we get the offense and defense figured out and improved by the time the A-10 conference games start in January.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:03 AM
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I don't think anyone is jumping anywhere...but for the sake of basketball discussion...when someone figures out the X's and O's please discuss. I am not trying to be a smartass but would like to discuss it. I do think that previous discussions by other programs regarding offensive philosophy are relevant.

If you are okay with the effort given in SC...then each to your own. Your radio commentators touched on it. Fans typically evaluate performances and the first 4 games have been no different than the first 4 games under the previous coaches.

So...to keep this basketball related. What have any of you seen that indicates what the offense is or what the offensive philosophy is at this point? To early to tell? Is this team relying on the three ball too much? Etc...

Let me preface this...my expectations are 17 wins. So I haven't set the bar that high. I would just like to figure out what the plan is, if any, that was shown in the first 4 games.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:21 AM
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I didn't see any of the game but checking out the box score, 2 things stood out: (1) only 7 FTs and (2) Why we took so many 3's (33) when we were 13/19 on 2-point shots.

If the inside game is working, abuse it and the foul/FTs follow.

Or was this a function of trailing the entire game and having no other option but to chuck up 3s the entire 2nd half?
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Wow. Could it also spark the North Korean's as well? You definitely need a Flyer win!
Okay, let me explain myself a little more on this.

Maybe my goals for the program aren't aligned with the university's. But I looked at the past 6 seasons as a period of great movement forward for the program not one of great success that needs to be enjoyed because it's temporary.

I guess I've always used our oldest and strongest rival as the program we need to mirror as far as success. I'm not asking this program to be NC or Duke, but asking it to try and be Xavier when it comes to success doesn't seem so out of the realm of possibility. Maybe not today, tomorrow or 3 years from now, but I want to at least close the gap or if Xavier keeps advancing forward, we keep chasing their success.

One thing Xavier hasn't had was great fallback anytime in their climb up. We should at least expect the same.

I haven't given up on Grant yet, but what concerns me is that we're seeing some of the same short-comings (yes I know it's early) that we heard about from Alabama. I personally don't believe Anthony Grant came here in full rebuild situation. He certainly didn't get handed a "bare cupboard" as one poster is using as an excuse. I think he entered in as good of situation as any coach has except maybe Donoher. He has 5 returnees and what looks to be 4 or our best recruits in ages. The 5 returnees are all players that were expected to be and groomed to be starters this season(maybe not Landers but with Mikesell out, it's a slight setback).

So while I wish nothing but the best success for UD and Grant, I'm concerned that we might not have hired him for the right reasons. I guess I look at it that with 330 million people in this country, is it a coincidence that the right man for the job happened to be a player on our team 30 years ago? I'm afraid he was hired for longevity. Heck, if I was athletic director with the responsibilities of handling all athletics, I would be tempted to hire a guy who I think will keep me from going through the hassle of finding a replacement again in 5 or 6 years.

Maybe he is the right hire and has learned from his experiences up to this point. But my point still stands. If we don't move forward, meaning more success than AM brought us, the gap between where we and Xavier were last season as a program will increase enormously.

When it was time for Tim Wabler to hire a new coach, it's obvious he did his due diligence in finding one, none of us had Archie Miller on the radar. But when it came time for Neil Sullivan to find us one, the one name that came out of just about everyone's mouth was Anthony Grant. I believe that was for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only, he was a former player and he coached at a power 5 school. Nobody could go through his head coaching career and show signs of how he could be as successful as Archie Miller here. Nope, it was "He knows UD, he knows what great citizens we want our student athletes to be, he knows how great the fans are and he will probably stay 20 years if the decision is left up to him."

I have not given up hope yet, but I am worried. I don't want to relive the Brian Gregory or lord forbid, the JOB years. I want forward progress. Hopefully he brings that but if he doesn't, my dream for the college basketball team that I love will have been crushed, I ain't getting any younger.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:39 AM
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One thing to remember. Neil Sullivan doe snot have the history of UD tied to him. I have never asked Neil about the hiring process, but I can tell you at least one person in the search committee said that the ties and former player did not matter to him. He felt that Anthony was the best person for the job. I think his MBA experience and working with Donovan was a big plus. We also forget that he had really good success at VCU. I don't think he was hired solely because he was a UD grad.

While I am very concerned about what I've seen so far, I don't think that 4 games is an adequate sample. I also believe that KenPoms stats for this basketball season have enough data points yet.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
One thing to remember. Neil Sullivan doe snot have the history of UD tied to him. I have never asked Neil about the hiring process, but I can tell you at least one person in the search committee said that the ties and former player did not matter to him. He felt that Anthony was the best person for the job. I think his MBA experience and working with Donovan was a big plus. We also forget that he had really good success at VCU. I don't think he was hired solely because he was a UD grad.

While I am very concerned about what I've seen so far, I don't think that 4 games is an adequate sample. I also believe that KenPoms stats for this basketball season have enough data points yet.
Fair enough. But the names of the schools that have given us trouble scares the heck out of me. Not even during the Gregory years do I remember a stretch where the Ball St., Hofstas and ODUs of the college basketball world gave us this much trouble. One every now and then but not 3 in 4 games. This is unfamiliar territory, even for a new coach coming in.

Also, let's remember that while the great success of the VCU 2010-2011 team consisted of a lot of AG's players, he was not the coach. So far signs point to him being a great recruiter, but his ability to coach them up and his in game coaching and style is still up for debate.

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Old 11-20-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
One thing to remember. Neil Sullivan doe snot have the history of UD tied to him. I have never asked Neil about the hiring process, but I can tell you at least one person in the search committee said that the ties and former player did not matter to him. He felt that Anthony was the best person for the job. I think his MBA experience and working with Donovan was a big plus. We also forget that he had really good success at VCU. I don't think he was hired solely because he was a UD grad.

While I am very concerned about what I've seen so far, I don't think that 4 games is an adequate sample. I also believe that KenPoms stats for this basketball season have enough data points yet.
Bingo...Neil appears to put forth a complete analysis on everything done. His loyalty is tied to making the correct decisions. No questions asked.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I didn't see any of the game but checking out the box score, 2 things stood out: (1) only 7 FTs and (2) Why we took so many 3's (33) when we were 13/19 on 2-point shots.

If the inside game is working, abuse it and the foul/FTs follow.

Or was this a function of trailing the entire game and having no other option but to chuck up 3s the entire 2nd half?
Drives to the basket...There were a few, and some of them worked perfectly on the drive and dish. Some others worked with just DD driving to the basket. The last bunch failed with TOs when we lost the handle, so mixed success.

Whenever ODU went zone, we were lost. 4 guys passing around the perimeter. No one at the FT line or attempts to penetrate or pass it to the FT line and then kick out. Instead of just passing on the exterior, we should have been setting more high screens to allow penetration.

The 3PT attempts varied between chuck it up early and heave it up at the last second. Some of the players had success with 3s but others, such as X and Crutcher did not, yet continued to chuck them up. While some 3s were at the end, most of them were not. We just seemed to settle for 3s and outside of DD and JD, not a whole lot went in the basket.

I'm not sure what the offensive strategy is. It isn't like AM, which was often predicated on getting TOs and then moving out fast. Or if it is, it isn't working because our D is horrendous and not generating any TOs. It must not be based on Def rebounding either, because we aren't doing well at that either. And it isn't based on us getting Off rebounds because we have 4 or 5 guys on the perimeter when the shot goes up and then immediately head back on D, although I wouldn't call it Defense, since it's pretty poor.

Not having seen Grant's previous teams, I have no idea if this is similar to VCU and Alabama offenses or if the players aren't getting it, or not gelling because we have so many new parts plus new coach/system, some combination of the above, etc. I do think they'll improve. I just think it's going to be painful at times this year and we'll see some games like Hofstra and ODU that just frustrate the heck out of everyone.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
LOL. Cupboard bare? Give me a fricken break. You know when the cupboard was bare? In 2014-2015 when we had 1 senior, 1 junior, 3 sophs, 1 freshman and 1 walkon playing. We won 2 NCAA games that season. This season we have 1 senior, 3 juniors, 1 sophomore and 5 Freshman(1 who's a redshirt and practiced half a season with the team and the other who's 21 and played in Europe). Cupboard might be bare to you, but it ain't near as bare as our 2nd most successful season in the past 32.
I just want to add some extra information here. The cupboard wasn't left bare in 2014-15. Things occurred in that year that forced the second half of the year to have the players you listed.

We also had Robinson and Scott, but then incidents occurred, so they were done after 9 games.

We had a graduate transfer, who we hoped had recovered from concussion symptoms, but after 8 games, and another concussion, he was done.

We also had a player from a community college come in, have a knee surgery, was going to be great for us, was always going to be playing in the "next" game, and then, disappeared without a trace.

So, yes, that 14-15 team did well, but there were 4 more players that were originally planned on having in that year, and circumstances happened that they didn't finish the year.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
I just want to add some extra information here. The cupboard wasn't left bare in 2014-15. Things occurred in that year that forced the second half of the year to have the players you listed.

We also had Robinson and Scott, but then incidents occurred, so they were done after 9 games.

We had a graduate transfer, who we hoped had recovered from concussion symptoms, but after 8 games, and another concussion, he was done.

We also had a player from a community college come in, have a knee surgery, was going to be great for us, was always going to be playing in the "next" game, and then, disappeared without a trace.

So, yes, that 14-15 team did well, but there were 4 more players that were originally planned on having in that year, and circumstances happened that they didn't finish the year.
Yes, it wasn't a bare cupboard situation. But my point is the personnel we had to use didn't looked better than what we have this season. We have pretty much the same if not more experience and we have many more bodies with basketball skills.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:10 PM
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Doing two things here.

1) Back to the O vs. D conversation
2) Bringing this from another, similar thread.

I think there's hope on both. There were plenty of sequences where we had great ball movement, but it appeared that we lacked confidence to see the play through... as in penetrate the lane. That's where the lack of game experience really hurts this team. Also there were several sequences where even DD stopped the flow. I suspect this is likely because he felt he had to "make a play". Finally, X, inside out...inside out!

On D, I think we will get better. However, we will always have issues with big, physical teams. Add another 20 lbs of muscle on Kostas, and maybe next year. CAG seems to pull a player for defensive lapses quicker than on the O, I expect that message to sink in.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yes, it wasn't a bare cupboard situation. But my point is the personnel we had to use didn't looked better than what we have this season. We have pretty much the same if not more experience and we have many more bodies with basketball skills.
People are going to look back and say "how did you only win 17 games that year, you had Kostas on the team with Cunningham and . . . "

It ignores the fact that basketball talent and basketball team success are very different things. Kostas as a freshman--well maybe the best thing about that is that next year he'll be a sophomore.
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Is it just me, or the offense has "no plan"
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Not just you...
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:47 PM
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Easily the defense. The offense has some issues, but the only glaring one is the over reliance early on with taking 3 point shots. They'd be far more efficient attacking the basket more, and they need to post up more. The biggest culprit is XW. He's infatuated with the 3 point shot and seems to have no interest in working down low to score unless it's a putback (which he rarely gets as he is out on the perimeter). Less 3's, more passing into the paint or at the post will go a long way in freeing up more open shots.

The defense has been brutal. Especially the perimeter defense. A lot of that is inexperience. Crosby hasn't played much before this year, and we're relying on 2 freshman for a lot of minutes in Crutcher and JD. DD is our best outside defender (surprise surprise, the one with experience) but no one is going to confuse him with Kyle Davis either. CAG is getting some athletes, but rare is the kid who can come in and be a great collegiate defender at 18/19 years old.

XW's lack of bulk has shown against the bigger forwards we've been facing. He's got the height to alter shots, but he gets backed up under the basket too easily. Cunningham has the strength, but he's not as long as a lot of bigs and still isn't as explosive as he was pre-injury.

Kostas has the potential to be an elite inside defender and at time will look great, but he's still young and skinny. Another offseason of adding bulk and strength will do wonders for him, but even moreso will be the experience. I didn't get to see a good portion of the ODU game, but there is 0 reason he should be playing under 20 minutes a game.

Trey Landers getting injured hurt as he was sort of a bigger less developed version of Kyle Davis. He had attributes that could make him a great versatile defender and not having him against ODU hurt.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Okay, let me explain myself a little more on this.

Maybe my goals for the program aren't aligned with the university's. But I looked at the past 6 seasons as a period of great movement forward for the program not one of great success that needs to be enjoyed because it's temporary.

I have not given up hope yet, but I am worried. I don't want to relive the Brian Gregory or lord forbid, the JOB years. I want forward progress. Hopefully he brings that but if he doesn't, my dream for the college basketball team that I love will have been crushed, I ain't getting any younger.
I totally agree. I view the last 4 years not as an aberration, but instead, I view the last 4 years as being how things should be at UD all the time: constant improvement and constantly moving up the ranks in college basketball.

I too greatly fear how much of a setback we will suffer if AG does not work out. Any sort of prolonged NCAAT appearance drought would be absolutely disastrous for our program, what with the BE tv contract expiring in around 5 years. And right now, I think we will be lucky to even make the NIT this year.

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Old 11-20-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDuke2003 View Post
The biggest culprit is XW. He's infatuated with the 3 point shot and seems to have no interest in working down low to score unless it's a putback (which he rarely gets as he is out on the perimeter).
Twice, for those of you scoring at home. 2x in 4 games.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Fair enough. But the names of the schools that have given us trouble scares the heck out of me. Not even during the Gregory years do I remember a stretch where the Ball St., Hofstas and ODUs of the college basketball world gave us this much trouble. One every now and then but not 3 in 4 games. This is unfamiliar territory, even for a new coach coming in.

Also, let's remember that while the great success of the VCU 2010-2011 team consisted of a lot of AG's players, he was not the coach. So far signs point to him being a great recruiter, but his ability to coach them up and his in game coaching and style is still up for debate.
May not cherish those teams we have played, but all likely will be upper tier in their respective conferences and sniffing at post season play. We could be 1-3 right now, but we also could be 3-1. It's going to be that way the whole year.

But granted, if we don't play better, none of that makes any difference.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I totally agree. I view the last 4 years not as an aberration, but instead, I view the last 4 years as being how things should be at UD all the time: constant improvement and constantly moving up the ranks in college basketball.

I too greatly fear how much of a setback we will suffer if AG does not work out. Any sort of prolonged NCAAT appearance drought would be absolutely disastrous for our program, what with the BE tv contract expiring in around 5 years. And right now, I think we will be lucky to even make the NIT this year.
I absolutely think we will be lucky to make the NIT but that was my expectation going in. I would love it if this was not a rebuilding year, but that is just not reality. The class balance was all jacked up! Without blaming anyone, (we have had injuries, suspensions/expulsions, tragedy, etc...). The end result was we graduated four senior starters and the backfill is not a couple seniors, a couple juniors and some sophomores who all have experience. We have one senior with experience, a junior PG who hasn’t played a ton and who’s play has been a lighting rod for criticism, a junior PF/C who played like 9 games last year, a junior SF who is streak shooter and has struggled thus far, and a bunch of new guys who have never played college ball or almost none if you want to throw Trey in that group.

I think you have a group of talented players that need to learn to play together and in a new system, (I remember a play in the Hofstra game where JC drove the lane a threw a little lob to the rim for Kostas, Kostas turned around to rebound, Hofstra ended up with the ball and I thought to myself, “that will bring the house down at the Arena in February). There are going to be growing pains. I honestly think that what looks to some people like no offense may just be poorly executed offense. I thought the offense looked fairly good on Friday night. I will go out on a limb and assume that AG didn’t tell the guys “just play it like a pickup game tonight fellas” before yesterday’s game. Now should he have called a time out and said nobody shoots a three until the ball goes into the post? Probably, and I hope (and expect) he will learn something as well.

This year is going to be up and down and hopefully at some point things will come together, the game will slow down for the new guys and we’ll see what the future holds.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I absolutely think we will be lucky to make the NIT but that was my expectation going in. I would love it if this was not a rebuilding year, but that is just not reality. The class balance was all jacked up! Without blaming anyone, (we have had injuries, suspensions/expulsions, tragedy, etc...). The end result was we graduated four senior starters and the backfill is not a couple seniors, a couple juniors and some sophomores who all have experience. We have one senior with experience, a junior PG who hasn’t played a ton and who’s play has been a lighting rod for criticism, a junior PF/C who played like 9 games last year, a junior SF who is streak shooter and has struggled thus far, and a bunch of new guys who have never played college ball or almost none if you want to throw Trey in that group.

I think you have a group of talented players that need to learn to play together and in a new system, (I remember a play in the Hofstra game where JC drove the lane a threw a little lob to the rim for Kostas, Kostas turned around to rebound, Hofstra ended up with the ball and I thought to myself, “that will bring the house down at the Arena in February). There are going to be growing pains. I honestly think that what looks to some people like no offense may just be poorly executed offense. I thought the offense looked fairly good on Friday night. I will go out on a limb and assume that AG didn’t tell the guys “just play it like a pickup game tonight fellas” before yesterday’s game. Now should he have called a time out and said nobody shoots a three until the ball goes into the post? Probably, and I hope (and expect) he will learn something as well.

This year is going to be up and down and hopefully at some point things will come together, the game will slow down for the new guys and we’ll see what the future holds.
Good post, but a certain poster would simply consider you a Grant apologist.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
We have one senior with experience, a junior PG who hasn’t played a ton and who’s play has been a lighting rod for criticism, a junior PF/C who played like 9 games last year, a junior SF who is streak shooter and has struggled thus far, and a bunch of new guys who have never played college ball or almost none if you want to throw Trey in that group.
We had one Senior with experience(Sibert), a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch), a junior small forward playing center(Pierre), a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle) and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard). Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis) and a walk-on(Wehrli). AND NOBODY ELSE.

Cry me a fricken river.

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Old 11-20-2017, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Good post, but a certain poster would simply consider you a Grant apologist.
I consider myself an apologist for reason. If AG shows an inability to get it done after a reasonable amount of time and an inability to recognize what is happening and make adjustments, I’ll join the chorus. I am optimistic that won’t be the case.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
We had one Senior with experience(Sibert), a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch), a junior small forward playing center(Pierre), a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle) and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard). Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis) and a walk-on(Wehrli). AND NOBODY ELSE.

Cry me a fricken river.
All of whom had started to play a lot better by the end of the last season (that’s called development) in the same system with the same coach, and all of whom had just come off an Elite 8 run in which they all contributed heavily. To pretend the situations are similar is ridiculous. I’m not asking you to feel sorry for them but facts are facts. I’m not making excuses for AG...because nobody should need an excuse AFTER FOUR F’N GAMES!
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Good post, but a certain poster would simply consider you a Grant apologist.
You know what's funny? If AG turns this around you will all come to me and say "Hey Smitty, what do you think of AG now?". And I will say "He did good, never said he wouldn't, and I still say we aren't rebuilding."
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
All of whom had started to play a lot better by the end of the last season (that’s called development) in the same system with the same coach, and all of whom had just come off an Elite 8 run in which they all contributed heavily. To pretend the situations are similar is ridiculous. I’m not asking you to feel sorry for them but facts are facts. I’m not making excuses for AG...because nobody should need an excuse AFTER FOUR F’N GAMES!
Nope, the situation was much worse. If you had lined up the two teams, one with 5 starters, 1 freshman and one walk-on(none of the 7 taller than 6'6), and then line up this team with 5 starters and 5 Freshman ((4 players 6'9 or taller) and predicted which one would do better, EVERYONE would've chosen this one because they had a better situation.

Oh yeah, and XW played great last season, Josh was a known when he was healthy which he was coming into this season, Crosby improved toward the end of last season and no matter how you rate Baby D last season, what he's done so far speaks for itself. That makes only one(two if you count Crosby so I will) starting positions with a big question mark compared to 3 that season.

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Old 11-20-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
You know what's funny? If AG turns this around you will all come to me and say "Hey Smitty, what do you think of AG now?". And I will say "He did good, never said he wouldn't, and I still say we aren't rebuilding."
Well, I will own my comments. I have repeatedly said that AG is not going to work out. So, sorry, but I am just not a believer in AG.

I would love to eat a heapin' helpin' of crow though, if I end up being wrong.

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Old 11-20-2017, 09:58 PM
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Well let's get a couple things straight right now.

The ones of you who are in here crowing about how the sky is falling sound like you are more invested in being right than supporting the team, which is pretty sad.

Is anybody happy with this effort? No. You know what other team had spotty effort? Last year. How many times were we down double digits in the first half and had to dig our way out. We had the talent to make that mistake last year. Not this year.

Second, we just graduated one of the best senior classes in Dayton history. You don't just snap your fingers and everything is fine again next year. We lost some of the best players we've EVER had.

Finally, for the hits we made in recruiting on Scoochie, KD, and Pollard... frankly the last few guys have been marginal or misses. We have a lot of talent on this team, but much of it is VERY raw. It's not being an apologist to expect there to be an adjustment period.

If we're in year 3, and this type of performance is still going on, I'll be right there with you in calling for a change. But after 4 games? You are being absolutely ridiculous.

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Old 11-21-2017, 09:42 AM
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We heard the same nonsense about Archie early on, and then suddenly his contract was extended, and things turned and the rest is history. Absurd to judge a coach in his first season, let alone his first four games.

We should question his strategies and lineups, but he is our coach, and to question that at this point is silly.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Nope, the situation was much worse. If you had lined up the two teams, one with 5 starters, 1 freshman and one walk-on(none of the 7 taller than 6'6), and then line up this team with 5 starters and 5 Freshman ((4 players 6'9 or taller) and predicted which one would do better, EVERYONE would've chosen this one because they had a better situation.

Oh yeah, and XW played great last season, Josh was a known when he was healthy which he was coming into this season, Crosby improved toward the end of last season and no matter how you rate Baby D last season, what he's done so far speaks for itself. That makes only one(two if you count Crosby so I will) starting positions with a big question mark compared to 3 that season.
Well let's do that comparison. Since we're talking about a team with only 5 starts + 1 freshman + 1 bench player, that team didn't exist until January. And at that point we knew KD had the heart of a lion, SS was the real deal, KP was a monster down low, our SG was a player on both ends of the court, and Pierre could flat out play with anyone.

Coming into this year we have 3, not 4 players, who are 6'9" or taller (XW, Pierce, Kostas). 2 are freshmen. True freshmen centers are notoriously projects so we could reasonably assume Pierce was unlikely to contribute. That puts him on the all-airport team. 1 weighs in at 205 pounds, which is 30 pounds less than 6'7" Cunningham and 20 pounds less than 6'5" Trey Landers. Tall, yes, a beast in the middle, no. And the third is a freshman wildcard who no one still knows what exactly we've got. And our PG were widely expected to be abysmal (but I expected to be just OK).

Which team would I have taken? The one with 5 players. All day, every day.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We heard the same nonsense about Archie early on, and then suddenly his contract was extended, and things turned and the rest is history. Absurd to judge a coach in his first season, let alone his first four games.

We should question his strategies and lineups, but he is our coach, and to question that at this point is silly.
I think some are confusing the critique of lineups and strategies with the future of a coach...they definitely aren't one in the same.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Well let's do that comparison. Since we're talking about a team with only 5 starts + 1 freshman + 1 bench player, that team didn't exist until January. And at that point we knew KD had the heart of a lion, SS was the real deal, KP was a monster down low, our SG was a player on both ends of the court, and Pierre could flat out play with anyone.

Coming into this year we have 3, not 4 players, who are 6'9" or taller (XW, Pierce, Kostas). 2 are freshmen. True freshmen centers are notoriously projects so we could reasonably assume Pierce was unlikely to contribute. That puts him on the all-airport team. 1 weighs in at 205 pounds, which is 30 pounds less than 6'7" Cunningham and 20 pounds less than 6'5" Trey Landers. Tall, yes, a beast in the middle, no. And the third is a freshman wildcard who no one still knows what exactly we've got. And our PG were widely expected to be abysmal (but I expected to be just OK).

Which team would I have taken? The one with 5 players. All day, every day.
Only in hindsight and if you say differently you're a liar.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:48 AM
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I've said it before and i'll say it again now

If we have more wins than loses this year, I think CAG did a solid job
If we make the NIT, then CAG would have done pretty good
If we make the NCAA's, we should start fundraising for the CAG statue in front of the arena.

Anyone condemning CAG after 4 games needs to read up on the game of basketball and how it actually works. This would have been a rebuilding year if Archie was still here, that happens when mid-majors graduate one of it's best classes ever.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:23 PM
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You're gonna get lit up for calling us a mid-major! Don't you know that four years of moderate success makes us Kentucky?
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Only in hindsight and if you say differently you're a liar.
But aren't you the one using hindsight? My recap of what we have this year is based on what we had coming into the season. You are the one who constructed the comparison to the 14-15 squad as constituted in January. Ergo...
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
But aren't you the one using hindsight? My recap of what we have this year is based on what we had coming into the season. You are the one who constructed the comparison to the 14-15 squad as constituted in January. Ergo...
Yes, what we had going into the season, not knowing anything else. Same way, step back in time and before the Flyers ever took the floor with only 6 scholarship players, what would you take? It's funny, we all know the reason they were so successful with that short team/short roster was because of great coaching. I know we had great coaching then(no hindsight needed), I don't know the same today. I also know that if AM had stayed, the term rebuild would not have been used going in. Next man up.

So this year is a rebuild you all say. What is next year when we lose Baby D? An extension of the rebuild? And the year after when we lose Crosby, Cunningham and Williams? More rebuild? And of course because of all this rebuild we're bound to lose some of this year's Freshman that committed to Archie, so more rebuilds in the future. Man, this has got to be the best job in the world. No expectations, just perpetual rebuild lol

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I also know that if AM had stayed, the term rebuild would not have been used going in. Next man up.

So this year is a rebuild you all say.
We have the 5th best rated roster in the A10 this year. In the last 4 years of the A10, since the A10 went through realignment, the 5th place team has had a rpi of: 91, 68, 81, and 32. That averages out to 68.(272/4)

So, based upon that, maybe just barely squeezing into the NIT seems like a reasonable expectation for this year.

Name Mascot Average Stars Official Site

Rhode Island Rams 2.923 gorhody
Saint Louis Billikens 2.897 slubillikens
La Salle Explorers 2.885 goexplorers
Massachusetts Minutemen 2.750 umassathletics

Dayton Flyers 2.708 daytonflyers

VCU Rams 2.692 vcuathletics
Saint Joseph's Hawks 2.590 sjuhawks
George Washington Colonials 2.444 gwsports
George Mason Patriots 2.370 gomason
Duquesne Dukes 2.344 goduquesne
Davidson Wildcats 2.306 davidsonwildcats
Richmond Spiders 2.269 richmondspiders
St. Bonaventure Bonnies 2.250 gobonnies
Fordham Rams 2.154 fordhamsports
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
So this year is a rebuild you all say. What is next year when we lose Baby D? An extension of the rebuild? And the year after when we lose Crosby, Cunningham and Williams? More rebuild? And of course because of all this rebuild we're bound to lose some of this year's Freshman that committed to Archie, so more rebuilds in the future. Man, this has got to be the best job in the world. No expectations, just perpetual rebuild lol
Yes, dude. Losing one player is a rebuild. That's a solid point that lots of people are definitely making.

I think you're talking just to talk at this point. Enjoy your echo chamber with ud2. The rest of us will actually be rooting for Grant to succeed instead of being resigned to his failure.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Yes, dude. Losing one player is a rebuild. That's a solid point that lots of people are definitely making.
So, losing MW made us a rebuild this year? Which one player are you referring to?
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:34 PM
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Flyer NIT bids.

So, actually, #68 should get us around a 2 or 3 seed.

So, I guess I have changed my mind, it would seem reasonable that we should be comfortably in the NIT this year.



Regular season Rpi rank and NIT seed and coach

#81, 2 seed, Archie 1st year


#70, 3 seed, BG 8th year
#54, 3 seed, BG 7th year, NIT Champions
#32, 3 seed, BG 5th year


#62, the NIT was not seeded, OP 8th year
#72, the NIT was not seeded, OP 7th year
#59, the NIT was not seeded, OP 4th year

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
We have the 5th best rated roster in the A10 this year. In the last 4 years of the A10, since the A10 went through realignment, the 5th place team has had a rpi of: 91, 68, 81, and 32. That averages out to 68.(272/4)

So, based upon that, maybe just barely squeezing into the NIT seems like a reasonable expectation for this year.

Name Mascot Average Stars Official Site

Rhode Island Rams 2.923 gorhody
Saint Louis Billikens 2.897 slubillikens
La Salle Explorers 2.885 goexplorers
Massachusetts Minutemen 2.750 umassathletics

Dayton Flyers 2.708 daytonflyers

VCU Rams 2.692 vcuathletics
Saint Joseph's Hawks 2.590 sjuhawks
George Washington Colonials 2.444 gwsports
George Mason Patriots 2.370 gomason
Duquesne Dukes 2.344 goduquesne
Davidson Wildcats 2.306 davidsonwildcats
Richmond Spiders 2.269 richmondspiders
St. Bonaventure Bonnies 2.250 gobonnies
Fordham Rams 2.154 fordhamsports
This is a lot of math that means nothing. It's incredible the effort you put into making the argument that the average of all recruiting stars equates to team quality.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Yes, dude. Losing one player is a rebuild. That's a solid point that lots of people are definitely making.

I think you're talking just to talk at this point. Enjoy your echo chamber with ud2. The rest of us will actually be rooting for Grant to succeed instead of being resigned to his failure.
can you read? I have not rated AG one way or another. I'm not arguing whether he's a good coach or not, but I don't know. I DON'T KNOW and neither do you. And I'm rooting for him.

What I am arguing is that this is far from a rebuild. This roster should be at worst bubble NIT and that's the worst case scenario. If Grant falls short of that, it's a reflection on his coaching, if reaches that it's a reflection on his coaching and if he exceeds that it's a reflection on his coaching. NIT might be a rebuild for UNC, but it's a slight step back for us. Get it? I'm sure you don't.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Only in hindsight and if you say differently you're a liar.
No YOU'RE A LIAR! Stop being childish.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yes, what we had going into the season, not knowing anything else. Same way, step back in time and before the Flyers ever took the floor with only 6 scholarship players, what would you take?
Going into the season we didn't have 6 scholarship players. So, with Dumb and Dumber, we had at least equivalent expected PG play, superior expected SG play, more proven post players of equal height and more bulk, and at least 1 PF who started from his freshman year.

Oh, and we had a coach in his 4th year, coming off an E8 run, with his system fully in place vs. a coach in his first year and a team full of freshmen.

Yessir, I would take that team over this team, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. If you say you would not, then you love Hitler and killing puppies.

Is there a soul here who wouldn't take that team over this one before the season started?!

How about after Dumb & Dumber left? Again, at that point we knew SS and KD and DP were a solid unit, with KP starting to show some signs of life. Compare that team (at December 15) to this team (at November 1) and I still take the team led by SS. Now there's no doubt we've got better PG play, there's no doubt we've got better SG play, Pierre offsets the expectations for Cunningham, XW has an advantage over Pollard, and KD has an advantage over every single player on this team you want to put on the court against him; we could see that by January 1.

We had already beaten Texas A&M and Boston College, and our record was 7-3.

And we still had a coaching advantage on the old team.

It's still the 2014-2015 team, hands down, game / set / match.

Last edited by Gazoo; 11-21-2017 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
No YOU'RE A LIAR! Stop being childish.


Going into the season we didn't have 6 scholarship players. So, with Dumb and Dumber, we had at least equivalent expected PG play, superior expected SG play, more proven post players of equal height and more bulk, and at least 1 PF who started from his freshman year.

Oh, and we had a coach in his 4th year, coming off an E8 run, with his system fully in place vs. a coach in his first year and a team full of freshmen.

Yessir, I would take that team over this team, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. If you say you would not, then you love Hitler and killing puppies.

Is there a soul here who wouldn't take that team over this one before the season started?!

How about after Dumb & Dumber left? Again, at that point we knew SS and KD and DP were a solid unit, with KP starting to show some signs of life. Compare that team (at December 15) to this team (at November 1) and I still take the team led by SS. Now there's no doubt we've got better PG play, there's no doubt we've got better SG play, Pierre offsets the expectations for Cunningham, XW has an advantage over Pollard, and KD has an advantage over every single player on this team you want to put on the court against him; we could see that by January 1.

We had already beaten Texas A&M and Boston College, and our record was 7-3.

And we still had a coaching advantage on the old team.

It's still the 2014-2015 team, hands down, game / set / match.
I really don't give a darn what happened prior to us being down to 6 scholarship players. Everyone on here thought our season was destroyed when dumb and dumber got kicked off the team, I'm sure you included. Don't try to rewrite history.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post
This is a lot of math that means nothing. It's incredible the effort you put into making the argument that the average of all recruiting stars equates to team quality.
1. It only took me a few minutes to compose that post. All of that information in that post is readily available on the internet.

http://verbalcommits.com/conferences/atlantic-10

http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html

2. I will agree that the roster star average is not the end-all be-all, but I just get tired of posters saying that the cupboard is bare this year. Yes, we lost 4 seniors, but we still have talent this year. I bet most years, we are in the top 2 or 3 in the roster star average for the A10. And I bet we recruit better than almost all of the other A10 schools. I bet us and VCU, and maybe SLU, are the only A10 schools landing 4 star players with any regularity.

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Old 11-21-2017, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Well, I will own my comments. I have repeatedly said that AG is not going to work out. So, sorry, but I am just not a believer in AG.

I would love to eat a heapin' helpin' of crow though, if I end up being wrong.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:46 PM
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During the 14-15 season, fans of other teams in the A10 grew weary of us talking about only having 6 scholarship players. The reason being, despite our short bench, we had the best starting line-up in the A10. This year we do not start the best line-up in the A10 and our bench is still not that deep.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
We have the 5th best rated roster in the A10 this year. In the last 4 years of the A10, since the A10 went through realignment, the 5th place team has had a rpi of: 91, 68, 81, and 32. That averages out to 68.(272/4)

So, based upon that, maybe just barely squeezing into the NIT seems like a reasonable expectation for this year.

Name Mascot Average Stars Official Site

Rhode Island Rams 2.923 gorhody
Saint Louis Billikens 2.897 slubillikens
La Salle Explorers 2.885 goexplorers
Massachusetts Minutemen 2.750 umassathletics

Dayton Flyers 2.708 daytonflyers

VCU Rams 2.692 vcuathletics
Saint Joseph's Hawks 2.590 sjuhawks
George Washington Colonials 2.444 gwsports
George Mason Patriots 2.370 gomason
Duquesne Dukes 2.344 goduquesne
Davidson Wildcats 2.306 davidsonwildcats
Richmond Spiders 2.269 richmondspiders
St. Bonaventure Bonnies 2.250 gobonnies
Fordham Rams 2.154 fordhamsports
Can you set up a spreadsheet and factor in a multiplier for number of years or games experience? As someone said earlier, a 3 star senior is more valuable than a 3 star freshman. It would be fun to have the raw data and compare actual results against stars. Might indicate coaching influence, etc.
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
can you read? I have not rated AG one way or another. I'm not arguing whether he's a good coach or not, but I don't know. I DON'T KNOW and neither do you. And I'm rooting for him.
We actually do know if he's a good coach or not. He had other jobs before he came here. He did well at VCU. Not so great at Alabama. He was an assistant on a national championship team, more than one. Judging from that, he is at least a step up from BG.

What we don't know is how this job will go for him.

What I am arguing is that this is far from a rebuild. This roster should be at worst bubble NIT and that's the worst case scenario. If Grant falls short of that, it's a reflection on his coaching, if reaches that it's a reflection on his coaching and if he exceeds that it's a reflection on his coaching. NIT might be a rebuild for UNC, but it's a slight step back for us. Get it? I'm sure you don't.
When you have something like 6 first year players, I think it's a rebuild by definition. The roster and it's experience takes on a totally different shape. If we could've kept Wright, I would feel a lot differently about this season. But we have two marginal D-I point guards, one based on what we've seen for two plus years, and the other based on only 4 games at the college level.

We saw what AG thinks about Crosby by having Crutcher finish the Hofstra game. Plus Crosby almost quit. You can't win consistently at this level with this kind of point guard play.

The first year players aside from PG definitely has talent, but it will take time to develop. The returning talent just is not dominant talent. XW can't figure out where he wants to play. Landers barely played last year. Josh seems to be streaky. Baby D has been terrific.

I'm sure Grant would agree with you that it would be a failure to not make the NIT, but we have a lot more basketball to get through before we can pass judgment on how AG IS GOING TO DESTROY THE PROGRAM AFTER 4 FREAKING GAMES.

Last edited by priceg75; 11-21-2017 at 08:23 PM..
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:34 PM
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3rd fewest returning minutes in the nation. You'd have to be blind, deaf, or dumb to think this program isn't in a rebuild...

AG has an uphill season...no doubt. I am more concerned with the execution of X's and O's or the design of X's and O's than anything. Dude can coach or he wouldn't be where he is at. I try to pay attention to what is actually going on during the course of a game. Execution of a system or lack of a system that meets the needs of current personnel is what I am watching now....or simply the fact of personnel being young and inexperienced compared to competition...
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
When you have something like 6 first year players, I think it's a rebuild by definition.
And you just lost four seniors, the winningest class in UD history, and you also lost two juniors to injury/suspension. Some posters must have a much different definition of a rebuilding season.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
If AG does not work out, then we should have hired Dave Harper as AD...DH assisted Tim Wabler with the brilliant AM hire, and DH miraculously lured Keith Dambrot from Akron to Duquesne. Bring DH back to UD, if AG does not work out, or try to get TW to come out of retirement, if AG does not work out.

Neil has to go, or be reassigned elsewhere, if AG does not work out.
Not going all that well for the very young new AD. Football had a losing season, way below our standards. Both soccer teams misfired with our once proud women's program seemingly in rapid decline. Volleyball took a step backwards. Softball was marginal and baseball flat out embarresing. Now looking at what might be our worst men's basketball season in at least five years and possibly more than a decade. It's lonely at the top.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
3rd fewest returning minutes in the nation. You'd have to be blind, deaf, or dumb to think this program isn't in a rebuild...
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
And you just lost four seniors, the winningest class in UD history, and you also lost two juniors to injury/suspension. Some posters must have a much different definition of a rebuilding season.
See post #60 above.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=60:


We had one Senior with experience(Sibert), a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch), a junior small forward playing center(Pierre), a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle) and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard). Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis) and a walk-on(Wehrli). AND NOBODY ELSE.

Cry me a fricken river.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tirebiter View Post
Can you set up a spreadsheet and factor in a multiplier for number of years or games experience? As someone said earlier, a 3 star senior is more valuable than a 3 star freshman. It would be fun to have the raw data and compare actual results against stars. Might indicate coaching influence, etc.
Good idea, a lot of work to set that up though.
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
See post #60 above.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=60:


We had one Senior with experience(Sibert), a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch), a junior small forward playing center(Pierre), a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle) and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard). Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis) and a walk-on(Wehrli). AND NOBODY ELSE.

Cry me a fricken river.
Why are some people allergic to facts?

The question is what you compare it to:

We had one Senior with experience(Sibert): who is far, far, far superior to DD.

. . . a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch): SS averaged 17 minutes per game the prior year as a freshman and had close to a 2:1 A/TO ratio as a freshman. JC played 9.1 minutes per game and had a 1:1 ratio last year. You are literally arguing for the other side. SS played almost double the minutes JC did coming into the year, and was more effective even as a freshman.

. . . a junior small forward playing center(Pierre): who was 3rd on the team in scoring and shot 49.5% from 3, compared to Cunningham who didn't play because of injury. Both are undersized at center.

. . . a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle): KD as a freshman played 239 minutes and scored 70 points. Trey as a freshman played 52 minutes and scored 27 total points.

. . . and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard): Well, Pollard only took 2 FT's as a freshman, so you can't say that coming into the season. Pollard averaged 8.5 minutes per game and scored 83 points. But, compared to XW this year, yeah, XW wins.

. . . Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis): Compared to our freshmen coming off the bench who where equally touted. So this is a push.

. . . and a walk-on(Wehrli): Wehrli's 5 fouls against Kostas' out of control freshman body for 15 minutes per game: OK, this year's squad wins 1 but it's pretty far at the margin.

. . . AND NOBODY ELSE: Dayton has so far played only 9 players on this young season, and Svoboda's 10 minutes per game have generally been worse than playing 4 vs. 5.

. . . Cry me a fricken river: I'll just rationally take the old team rather than get all emotional because the facts clearly say the '14-'15 team would have been better.

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Old 11-22-2017, 09:05 AM
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Grant will take us to NEXT Level. We need better players. Archies last group including Kosatas is pretty good but we need ready to play guys who can make an impact ie Cohill. Archie put us back on the map and may be the best in game coach we have had, however that Senior laden team lost 3 straight at end of season and played uninspired in the GW and Davidson game. With our faciltities and fan base we should dominate this conference . Need better players and I bet Grant get them.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:16 AM
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Amazing thread
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
See post #60 above.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=60:


We had one Senior with experience(Sibert), a Sophomore PG who hasn't played much(Scooch), a junior small forward playing center(Pierre), a Sophomore shooting guard that hardly played, and doesn't shoot well(Kyle) and a Sophomore forward that hardly played, gets fouled a lot when he does and can't make a free throw, (Pollard). Then we have one Freshman(D. Davis) and a walk-on(Wehrli). AND NOBODY ELSE.

Cry me a fricken river.
I’ll cede all those points to you, but there are some factors you’re leaving out of the equation:
1) The lone senior then was Sibert. The lone senior now is Davis. No disrespect to DD, and he’s off to a great start this season, but Sibert as a Senior-To-Be > Davis as a Senior-To-Be.
2) That lineup didn’t become reality until 1/3 of the way into the season. Granted, few people (myself included) thought they’d rise to the occasion the way they did, but they did at least have some experience playing together before we got down to 6 recruited players.
3) The coach at that time had a pretty good concept of his players’ strengths and weaknesses by the time that team became The Magnificent Seven. Right now, the coach is still learning what his players can and cannot do in different game situations. And finally,
4) There’s a reason why some people say “The best thing about Freshman is, they become Sophomores.” That team had 1 Freshman. This team has 3 guys who were in High School last year, and 2 more who never saw a minute of collegiate action until earlier this month. So, on average, that team had more experience at the collegiate level.

By the time you add all the factors together, I’d say this coach, with this group, at this time, has a harder job than that coach did, with that group, at that time. Maybe not MUCH harder. But harder.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:28 PM
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Back to Offense or Defense.
I would like to see AG take the Coach Carter approach: Practice defense and run.
In the few opportunities they had in Charleston, this team looked good in transition.
Kostas had a block on D and a dunk at the other end.
Landers loves to attack the rim.
Baby D is best spotting up for a catch and shoot.
Crosby has shown some creativity around the rim.
On those rare occasions that we get a steal or a rebound, the mentality needs to be to attack in transition. The half court offense has been brutal to watch. Take every opportunity to NOT get into half court sets.
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Old 11-23-2017, 01:39 PM
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+ / - On offensive combinations.

https://twitter.com/DavidPJablonski/...03040228528147
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Old 11-24-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
+ / - On offensive combinations.

https://twitter.com/DavidPJablonski/...03040228528147
Among other things, this shows that Coach is trying to play the combinations that work the best together, as 7 of the top 8 in terms of minutes played together are + instead of -. The problem is, the combinations that are bad are generally very bad. But since the theme this season is “new”, that means there’ll be a lot of “trial and error”, and Coach is trying to fix the errors in lineup combinations as soon as game situations allow.

Another observation, regarding the debate between which situation was worse: new coach with 5/10 players new to the squad, or 6 scholarship players with none taller than 6’6”. When a coach only has a handful of players from which to choose, a list as long as Jablonski’s doesn’t exist. The focus isn’t on “which combinations are working”, it’s on “how can I get this combination to work”. Much less game management. Much more player instruction. Not taking a side here: simply making an observation.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic View Post
Back to Offense or Defense.
I would like to see AG take the Coach Carter approach: Practice defense and run.
In the few opportunities they had in Charleston, this team looked good in transition.
Kostas had a block on D and a dunk at the other end.
Landers loves to attack the rim.
Baby D is best spotting up for a catch and shoot.
Crosby has shown some creativity around the rim.
On those rare occasions that we get a steal or a rebound, the mentality needs to be to attack in transition. The half court offense has been brutal to watch. Take every opportunity to NOT get into half court sets.
I stand by this post .
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