you would think FB could get a little love

MichiganFlyer60 · #1 07-26-2013, 10:29 AM

http://daytonflyers.com/mens/basketb...ticle_id=10011

Piqua Flyer '66 · #2 07-26-2013, 12:29 PM

I don't see UD football ever getting back to the days when they drew 8-10,00a game at Baujan Field. With forethought at the time - moving to D3/non-schlorship football - football should have stayed on campus where 4-5,000 attendance could have been housed.
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UACFlyer · #3 07-26-2013, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66

I don't see UD football ever getting back to the days when they drew 8-10,00a game at Baujan Field. With forethought at the time - moving to D3/non-schlorship football - football should have stayed on campus where 4-5,000 attendance could have been housed.
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Until very recently UD had a severe land problem. The campus was entirely land-locked with no where to go. Decisions at the time were driven by that fact.

Then, about five years ago along came the opportunity (and Dan Curran) to acquire 50 acres of NCR property.....turning planning completely on its head...and requiring a new Master Plan. No sooner had the new plan been completed and absorbed, when..."bang",...another unexpected development, i.e., the opportunity to acquire yet another 100 acres from NCR, rendering yet another plan at least partially obsolete.

Suddenly UD has land space to burn as well as ~ 1 million sq ft of building space. Since then UD has been transferring department-after-department into College Park Ctr and the NCR HQ bldg. Indeed, as I understand it, the entire School of Edication & Health Sciences will soon vacate Chaminade are relocate to CPC.

In spite of these developments, land is not available on the core campus for sports that we'd like to see located there, e.g., soccer, football and now lacrosse. You really can't have all three sports, or even two (?) using the same playing surface.

And, while there is ample space on the West campus and at the Arena complex, the nature of those sports is such that attendance is poor because their location is not "handy" for students.

For sure, UD understands all these issues and is working on a plan. Soon the Music/Theatre building will be torn down opening up Baujan....but, not providing enough space for two fields, so it seems to me.

It's too bad that UD still is so squeezed for space for a school its size. Some Priders have seen ND's campus.....ND and UD have the same number of students...but someone not knowing would guess ND had ~10X the student population as UD based on campus size and number of facilities.

UD does a great job planning and wisely utilizing its resources. And, with the acquired space, there is much greater flexibility. But, it still ain't easy.

Scout86 · #4 07-26-2013, 02:04 PM

Has the UD Alumni association ever met with the AD's office to discuss the football program and how they can help build on it?

MichiganFlyer60 · #5 07-26-2013, 02:26 PM

can anyone explain the deal UD has with city? what we can and cannot do with lights, signage, locker rooms etc...

DetroitFlyer · #6 07-26-2013, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by MichiganFlyer60

can anyone explain the deal UD has with city? what we can and cannot do with lights, signage, locker rooms etc...

The evidence would indicate that about all we can do at Welcome is pay rent. I think the primary driver now is to help out DPS. I would like to see a return to Baujan. To do that right, soccer would need a new grass field. No easy or inexpensive solutions. The best thing for UD Football now is to win the PFL and get to the playoffs on a regular basis. Then we have to win some playoff games. A tall order to be sure but NCAA playoffs attract fans. PFL titles with no playoffs just do not cut it.

UACFlyer · #7 07-26-2013, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer

The evidence would indicate that about all we can do at Welcome is pay rent. I think the primary driver now is to help out DPS. I would like to see a return to Baujan. To do that right, soccer would need a new grass field. No easy or inexpensive solutions. The best thing for UD Football now is to win the PFL and get to the playoffs on a regular basis. Then we have to win some playoff games. A tall order to be sure but NCAA playoffs attract fans. PFL titles with no playoffs just do not cut it.

Considering the plight of Dayton finances, it seems to me the fact that UD pays rent and is considering playing FB elsewhere provide considerable leverage with the City.

Just a few years ago UD, DPS, the City, etc., joined together in a renovation project....State funds were used as I recalled, although I'm not sure. Part of that deal, I think, was UD using its expertise running the Arena sports complex to run Welcome. That is, in addition to paying rent, UD brought expertise to the table. Also, there was some sharing of parking lot maintenance costs.

If I have any of this right, DPS would lose plenty if UD bowed out of the WS deal and played FB elsewhere. If that's the case, why wouldn't UD have a bit of leverage in its dealings with DPS?

Would it be any way harmful to DPS interests if WS looked a bit more like a college stadium...like UD's stadium? UD is vitally important to the City of Dayton. It doesn't seem even slightly reasonable to me that the City or DPS would give UD a hard time over such a minor matter as jazzing up the appearance of WS a bit to suit UD.

DetroitFlyer · #8 07-26-2013, 09:22 PM

The DPS folks do not want it to look like they are beholden to UD. Welcome seems like a significant source of pride for DPS and "selling out" to UD would be frowned upon.

UD62 · #9 07-26-2013, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer

The DPS folks do not want it to look like they are beholden to UD. Welcome seems like a significant source of pride for DPS and "selling out" to UD would be frowned upon.

UD and the city are working together to improve the south end. Both are probably reluctant to get into a fight over Welcome stadium. would be nice to see more UD at the stadium and maybe that can happen, however I don't look for strongarm actions by UD to effect change. It was nice when football was on campus and attendence was quite a bit higher, but the world has changed and lower lwevel football is a tough sell what with OSU just up the road, and tv showing football almost 24-7. Winning the PFL would help, but going in as a low seed to the playoffs every year means a road game against the 8 or 9 seed. That will be a tall order. I know DF has confidence that we can play with anybody, but actually doing it may be another matter.

bobber · #10 07-28-2013, 10:11 PM

As long as we continue to schedule right up against the BCS schools (i.e., kickoff at 1:00 PM every Sat.) I doubt things will change. What ever happened to night games? In September and early October the evening weather is usually pleasingly mild, and the kid's soccer games and other distractions are out of the way, not to mention the OSU game.

Why no night games? Don't the lights work at Welcome anymore?

UD62 · #11 07-29-2013, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by bobber

As long as we continue to schedule right up against the BCS schools (i.e., kickoff at 1:00 PM every Sat.) I doubt things will change. What ever happened to night games? In September and early October the evening weather is usually pleasingly mild, and the kid's soccer games and other distractions are out of the way, not to mention the OSU game.

Why no night games? Don't the lights work at Welcome anymore?

League games, and most non-leagre games for that matter, that are within bus range are scheduled in the afternoon so as to reduce travel costs by not having an overnight stay. This year we play SDU at 6PM, sort of a night game. I agree night games are preferred but $$$ come into play.

Medford · #12 10-15-2013, 09:06 AM

for whatever its worth, I heard over the weekend that UD is pretty well set on returning to Baujon field sometime in the next 5 years or so. I guess part of the plan is to remove one of the builings in that area to expand things (I'm guessing the engineering building, perhaps the support building on either side of the soccer goals, not 100% which building(s) will be affected). I'm not sure how "public" this plan is, but I'm told its pretty much a go at this point in their 5 year planning.

I don't know what that means for soccer (perhaps a new field for the growing soccer program elsewhere on campus) but I think that would be a really good move for football. They need to get it back to campus and hopefully grow the student attendance.

ud69 · #13 10-15-2013, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Medford

for whatever its worth, I heard over the weekend that UD is pretty well set on returning to Baujon field sometime in the next 5 years or so. I guess part of the plan is to remove one of the builings in that area to expand things (I'm guessing the engineering building, perhaps the support building on either side of the soccer goals, not 100% which building(s) will be affected). I'm not sure how "public" this plan is, but I'm told its pretty much a go at this point in their 5 year planning.

I don't know what that means for soccer (perhaps a new field for the growing soccer program elsewhere on campus) but I think that would be a really good move for football. They need to get it back to campus and hopefully grow the student attendance.

Putting football at Baujan - a very very dumb move - will do little for student attendance. The students don't show up for basketball. Why would they show up for football?

UACFlyer · #14 10-15-2013, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Medford

for whatever its worth, I heard over the weekend that UD is pretty well set on returning to Baujon field sometime in the next 5 years or so. I guess part of the plan is to remove one of the builings in that area to expand things (I'm guessing the engineering building, perhaps the support building on either side of the soccer goals, not 100% which building(s) will be affected). I'm not sure how "public" this plan is, but I'm told its pretty much a go at this point in their 5 year planning.

I don't know what that means for soccer (perhaps a new field for the growing soccer program elsewhere on campus) but I think that would be a really good move for football. They need to get it back to campus and hopefully grow the student attendance.

Med, the plan is to demolish the music building on the east end.....no other buildings will be affected. There is room to expand a bit to the south. But, there does not appear to be room enough for a FB and a soccer field.

Either FB or soccer can share with lacrosse beacuse the seasons do not overlap. But, FB and soccer are incompatible, sort of. Use of artificial turf solves one problem....but big time college soccer and FB cannot share field lines,...I think most would agree. And, since FB draws 2500-3000,..sometimes more,....space for seating for about 4000 is also an issue.

While implementation of the the plan may be years off...there is a plan. Surely, a few Priders must be well enough connected to the athletics division to get the facts re current thinking. This isn't a national security issue. I see no reason why Tim or others would not be candid re planning. (Chris?)

(It's ironic that with all the land UD now owns, the one place where you really need an extra few acres you don't have it. A few years ago UD invested in new houses along Stonemill. Had that not been done the Baujan complex could have been extended south all the way to Stonemill...and east after Music is gone. That additional space would have been enough for two field, I think. I wonder if UD would be willing to take the loss of a million or two and demolish the new Stonemill houses.)

Medford · #15 10-15-2013, 11:16 AM

thanks for the info UAC.

chriscage · #16 10-15-2013, 11:34 PM

1I've been saying it for years...UD has graduated countless numbers of capable marketing, advertising and media pros. If UD cares about maximizing football attendance IT CAN BE DONE. We have the talent to develop and execute an effective marketing campaign, but do we have the will?

The Dragons sellout ALL their games of lowly single A ball despite close proximity to the co-owned Reds.

UD basketball draws better than many power conference schools despite the short rides to tOSU, UC, X and Miami.

We have the only college football team (D1 at that) in a metro of more than 800,000 people. Dayton is not Athens...West Lafayette or Muncie.

This IS doable!

comebackkids0708 · #17 10-17-2013, 07:28 AM

I figured I'd give my two cents on this, not sure how much "inside" information I have but here's what I know and my theory. UAC is correct with the music building going bye bye and Medford it will be built within 5 years, if not sooner. A stadium with the capacity they are talking isn't a huge building project. The longer part of the process will come from 2 things; planning/drawings & MONEY. If you know anything about UD and I think we all do or we wouldn't be on this website they are very good at planning and money, unlike our beloved "elected" leaders in D.C.(Sorry had to get that jab in there with all the non-sense going on). The process has already started, and if you are familiar with these processes your first step is to decide what you want then lock down that initial money from high dollar donors BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. This is not going to be just a stadium, I expect weight rooms, video rooms, offices to be included; think Robert Morris. Football just did a decent size upgrade to it's current offices so they will most likely stay where they are but other sports could get in on this action. Now the question what about Soccer? Football will win hands down. Two things that drive this. Soccer has space that can be upgraded where they currently practice, wouldn't take much. Also it's called Alumni. Ask Dan Curran, Tim Wabler or Ted Kissel what sports program has consistently donated the most money to the school; FOOTBALL. It's a numbers game, they typically graduate more student athletes every year than most of the other programs have on their roster. Along with that a lot of these young men are engineers, lawyers, financial leaders to name a few and very successful at that. Not to mention there is a gentleman by the name of Coach Mike Kelly sitting in a powerful seat when it comes to situations like this, think about it.

UD has made attempts to take over Welcome Stadium in the past, but DPS won't come off their high horse and personally I don't care. If it means getting football back on campus so be it. The driving force is not student attendance, but it will be nice. Like DF said previously UD pays DPS every time they step foot in that stadium, we aren't a bank and DPS lost their chance to cash in. Best of luck to them. If high school football playoffs leave good night Welcome Stadium.

So to summarize all this jib jab I've laid out, from what I know the process has started behind closed doors; planning and financial security from the big boys. Football will win against soccer (not sure where Lacrosse ends up) and we'll all be much happier to see UD on campus once again!

Big game this weekend, cheers everyone!

UACFlyer · #18 10-17-2013, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by comebackkids0708

I figured I'd give my two cents on this, not sure how much "inside" information I have but here's what I know and my theory. UAC is correct with the music building going bye bye and Medford it will be built within 5 years, if not sooner. A stadium with the capacity they are talking isn't a huge building project. The longer part of the process will come from 2 things; planning/drawings & MONEY. If you know anything about UD and I think we all do or we wouldn't be on this website they are very good at planning and money, unlike our beloved "elected" leaders in D.C.(Sorry had to get that jab in there with all the non-sense going on). The process has already started, and if you are familiar with these processes your first step is to decide what you want then lock down that initial money from high dollar donors BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. This is not going to be just a stadium, I expect weight rooms, video rooms, offices to be included; think Robert Morris. Football just did a decent size upgrade to it's current offices so they will most likely stay where they are but other sports could get in on this action. Now the question what about Soccer? Football will win hands down. Two things that drive this. Soccer has space that can be upgraded where they currently practice, wouldn't take much. Also it's called Alumni. Ask Dan Curran, Tim Wabler or Ted Kissel what sports program has consistently donated the most money to the school; FOOTBALL. It's a numbers game, they typically graduate more student athletes every year than most of the other programs have on their roster. Along with that a lot of these young men are engineers, lawyers, financial leaders to name a few and very successful at that. Not to mention there is a gentleman by the name of Coach Mike Kelly sitting in a powerful seat when it comes to situations like this, think about it.

UD has made attempts to take over Welcome Stadium in the past, but DPS won't come off their high horse and personally I don't care. If it means getting football back on campus so be it. The driving force is not student attendance, but it will be nice. Like DF said previously UD pays DPS every time they step foot in that stadium, we aren't a bank and DPS lost their chance to cash in. Best of luck to them. If high school football playoffs leave good night Welcome Stadium.

So to summarize all this jib jab I've laid out, from what I know the process has started behind closed doors; planning and financial security from the big boys. Football will win against soccer (not sure where Lacrosse ends up) and we'll all be much happier to see UD on campus once again!

Big game this weekend, cheers everyone!

One slight catch. UD has a Kissell-developed strategy to excel at the national level in a few carefully selected sports. Soccer is one of them...FB is not. So, popular as it may be...whatever is decided had better not come at the expense of soccer.

UACFlyer · #19 10-17-2013, 09:40 AM

Someone at UD told me that a Baujan renovation would include an artificial surface...which would be consistent with playing scoccer at another venue. I don't know about LAX.

But, I am reminded how tough FB is on grass playing fields. This Monday's sports page had a piece on replacing natural grass at UConn's stadium with an artificial surface. The issue is that after playing just four games this season the grass is adversely affecting footing, especially for field goals. Every time there is a play stoppage for TV a team of guys runs out to replace the divots.

Before the next home game on Nov 8 the entire surface between the 35 yd lines will be re-sodded.

The grass is gorgeous....it's just that FB tears it up very easily. Many schools switched from grass to artificial...then back to grass when reports of injuries related to artificial surfaces popped up.....only to switch back to artificial surfaces when grass proved impractical and artificial surfaces improved.

Whatever, UD plans well and thinks things through. I just hope that if soccer (and maybe LAX) move across Brown St. that attendance doesn't suffer.

Recall, at one point the Master Plan called for a large arts center at the corner of Brown and Stewart. There may still be an arts building at that location. But, I think plans have been scaled back significantly as more and more money for arts has been invested in College Park Ctr. I think that's a shame. UD does not have an adequate performing arts facility.

Note also that plans for a major chapel renovation have been shelved. The project was to have been completed by this time....now it seems to be off the radar entirely. At least a thorough modernization is badly needed. The chapel is mighty shabby.

UDDoug · #20 10-17-2013, 02:29 PM

The Chapel was removed from major project lists because of the deal they worked out with Holy Angels to have bigger masses etc at Holy Angels. At orientation, Business School Advisory Council or some meeting I've been at in the last couple months it was noted the original renovation required changing the footprint of the chapel to make it larger but keep the historical style and look. Now that they don't need larger, they can develop a plan to restore the chapel on its original footprint.

I think it's pretty common to play LAX on turf, my guess is they share with football, and soccer is rebuilt.

Flyer Gramps · #21 10-17-2013, 02:33 PM

After the high school that some of my grandchildren attended changed from grass to field turf in their football stadium, I heard & read the Superintendent's words about the number of student/community groups that now use the facility compared to the grass field. It was like 20-something now to 4 in previous years.

I think that artificial is the way to go for high schools & bank yearly savings for the continued replacement costs down the road.

BTW, my Alma Mater, B-W, probably had the first Astro Turf in Ohio (at least N.Ohio) back in the 1970's. The new stadium, built with a donation & requirement of George Finnie (Finco Antennas as in TV antenna) was a sunken field so that the top of the stadium was only one story above the sidewalk. They started digging after football, missed one track season, and played on the artificial turf the following September!

Chris R · #22 10-17-2013, 04:08 PM

The dollars involved are what will drive this. If you want to bring football back to Baujan Field, build a permanent brick stadium to integrate into the existing campus architecture (which we already know is a HUGE university priority), build permanent lockers, concessions, team meeting rooms, coaches and officials rooms, a few showers, ticket booths, make everything ADA compliant, upgrade the lighting (which is presently quite poor), update the speaker/audio systems (which is also poor), install quality electronics to run audio, brand new scoreboards, a state of the art press box, address parking concerns, etc, ect....

If you do all of that, its a $20-30M day. If you want to do it any justice whatsoever and not make it a half-a55 token project.

But we're not done. Now you have to find a new home for mens and womens soccer, which are Tier-1 sports funded to compete at the national level. We'll forget lacrosse for a moment.

Youll have to build a brand new soccer stadium somewhere else. Pick a spot. Say Old River. Now you have to build something that

a) is far better than what you had at Baujan Field to not penalize the programs for their inconvenience

b) build it to a standard that is comparable to other university soccer facilities that Dayton measures themselves up against. That means Dayton is not obligated to build something that measures up with Miami University or Toledo -- those are not Dayton's soccer peers. The Big10 and the BCS are Dayton's soccer peers.

Louisville is throwing $17M into a new stadium -- to replace an existing stadium that's already one of the nicest in the country. Creighton has a 6,000-seat stadium that is nicer than some MLS stadiums and cost over $20M. University of Kentucky is building a new stadium that will be among the nicest in the country. Marquette just threw millions into their soccer complex.

In other words, Dayton would have to build something on par with these schools if they want to continue competing at their level -- which I would think is a priority because it has been for years. Dayton soccer may not be in a BCS league, but its operated like a BCS program in terms of coaches salaries, scholarships, equivalencies, and scheduling (usually).

So there's another $10-15M UD will have to spend to do any justice whatsoever to UD soccer and also accommodate the new lacrosse program.

So now we're pushing close to $50M. And what do we get out of it? We moved a non-scholarship football program on campus and moved another non-revenue bellcow off-campus. Neither sports make money. Neither sports bring students out to support them.

The Arena renovations over a decade ago cost over $12M. And those were mostly cosmetic. It does not take long to spend $40-50M especially when you have to build or effectively re-build things from scratch.

Considering UD was forced by the NCAA to even upgraded the Lite-Brite scoreboards in UD Arena or risk losing the NCAA tournament, Im not sure we can say UD has been ahead of the curve in many regards. And funding for those new HD boards (which are admittedly top class), seemed to take forever -- otherwise it would have been done years prior. I think those boards cost $1.5-2.0M.

Peanuts compared to the dollars we're talking here. If it took that much arm twisting to get HD boards in the Arena, I cant imagine where the money is going to come to help finance $50M in non-revenue sports.

Let me also add that the only dollars UD has basically thrown into Baujan Field in the last 10-11 years has been to change the light bulbs on the scoreboard from an impossible-to-read amber to easy-to-read red. I had called for a fix to that problem for years. Other than that, pretty much nothing has been done and Baujan is once again unique and engaging as a venue but losing ground in the soccer community. For Pete's sake, the UD soccer SIDs have been using a giant circus tent as an excuse for a press box for the last 15 seasons. Even Wright State has a freaking press box.

To be fair, UD did renovate the locker rooms for soccer recently. The players were thrilled about that. But overall, since the terrace and new turf were installed around 2000, Baujan looks exactly like it did in 2000.

You cannot possibly go 12-13 years and sit on your hands and expect to keep pace with your peers.

That said, I realize everything takes money. You need some whales to step up. But that dynamic is the same at every school in the country.

I'm just not real optimistic on the future of things based on the recent past. We seem to make upgrades and changes only when its almost forced upon us, rather than being innovative and ahead of the curve. We are very fortunate in that our identified Tier1 sports of volleyball and soccer are not weather or geography dependent, nor are they conference affiliation dependent. We can be national contenders in both.

But we have to treat them as other in our peer group are currently treating theirs. Im sorry that other state schools from BCS conferences have the governor writing checks and we dont have that luxury, but nobody said life was fair.

UACFlyer · #23 10-17-2013, 05:51 PM

It wasn't Chris' intent (or was it?) to make a solid case for keeping FB at WS. But, he sure did.

What makes the most sense is a making Baujan into one of the very best soccer venues in the mid-west.....possibly with use for LAX.

Nonetheless, I suggest the following: Develop a serious plan for returning FB to campus....complete design drawings and details. Then approach the cash-striken DPS with what amounts to a polite but crystal clear ultimatum of sorts....to the effect...."UD has decided to return FB to campus; here is the detailed plan; we are giving you 2 years notice". If DPS is as broke as we hear, that will not come as good news. UD pays for game-day use and shares other expenses.

"But, we have a `Plan B' ". Then UD outlines the changes that DPS must make to keep UD FB at WS. Those changes would require junking all the goofy rules that prevent WS from having the look and feel of a college stadium. The field surface can stay as is with the DPS logo, etc. But, the rest of WS will meet UD's design criteria as a true home for college FB. In exchange for those concessions UD will pay DPS more than it does now.

Re payment...win-win: DPS needs and gets more money than it does under the present arrangement and does not lose a prime tennant.....and UD gets to call the shots re features that make WS look like UD's home....and saves a bundle by avoiding the need for a campus stadium.

If DPS says "no"....UD executes Plan A and FB returns to campus.

Chris R · #24 10-17-2013, 06:58 PM

Im not 110% against UD soccer moving from Baujan Field, but the alternative better be so grandiose that Ohio State and Penn State look at the plans think "man, I wish we had that."

Otherwise UD is wasting their time and will do irreparable harm to whats taken 20 years to build. The players love Baujan. In fact, a 2015 recruit was recently quoted saying Baujan was a significant reason she chose UD.

Keep in mind, whatever sport you play at Baujan -- its for parents, an alums to enjoy. Students are mostly AWOL. Wont change for football. We cant even get students to fill half their student section at UD Arena and thats the sacred cow sport.

comebackkids0708 · #25 10-18-2013, 07:09 AM

UAC I agree with the Kissel approach and I don't think that goes away.The university knows it's not cut and dry. Chris R hit it on the head this plan isn't about attendance it's about parents and alums (where the money is coming from). I am having a hard time believing soccer attendance suffers if moved from Bajuan to across the street, it's less than a 5 block move. Attendance suffering comes lack of marketing and media coverage for all sports. Everyone knows my feelings toward DDN, which this week has done nothing to change my mind. I mean of course I wanted to read what the basketball opponents and times were rather than a good write up about a HUGE upcoming game like when Bucky covered the Flyers. I go back to what I said about Coach Kelly, these talks have always been around but with his new position it is getting a lot more attention/movement. I'll stick my original post. UD football will be at Baujan within 5 years, how it looks or what type of facility is built for the other sports I don't know.

UDBrian · #26 10-18-2013, 07:44 AM

We have had many marketing discussions on udpride forums. The university does very little to connect with potential fans imho. They depend upon word of mouth to pass information on. The increased attendance of the women's vball and bball teams shows that this can work but it takes time.

But, in the case of football part of the problem is that UD isn't really playing for anything to most potential fans. When they were in division III they played for championships. They were consistently a ranked team which draws attention from potential fans, regardless of the level you are playing at. Many people are lazy and would rather sit in front of their tv set. So you need to provide a great experience to attract those people.

I've only been to a couple of soccer matches but thought the student attendance was pretty good, much different than when the students walk over to UDArena or Welcome Stadium.

Scout86 · #27 10-18-2013, 08:17 AM

Another of my 2 cents, my oldest son is Director of corporate relations for Purdue University.....there's been a handful of large universities offer him jobs as they were trying to build up there endowments for nice new facilities....I know for a fact he brings in millions + per year for there programs ...does Dayton someone that works with Large companies for these things ?

UACFlyer · #28 10-18-2013, 08:23 AM

In spite of UD's added acreage, the core academic, residential campus still is very crowded and cramped. Re Baujan, while a quaint, pleasant venue, I doubt if there are many top-tier soccer venues where the ball frquently bouces off buildings. Indeed, it seems a bit strange to me having an athletic facility right in the middle of campus.

With that in mind, how about abandoning Baujan all together,....reserving the space for a future academic or residential buildings,....maybe even the arts center.

Instead, build a multi-purpose athletic facility along the east side of Main St. near the corner of Stewart. That leaves the corner of Brown and Stewart for academic expansion.....with the area to the west devoted entirely to athletics....both game day and practice.

Whatever, this requires really careful thought....including the possibility of grouping FB, soccer and LAX at one location away from the academic/residential core...but still much closer than across the river, e.g., as is Welcome. Moreover, also to be considered in planning is the liklihood that Fairgrounds property may become available. UD and MVH have a huge stake in how that property is developed. Seems to me that a deal whereby MVH buys the north half and UD the south half might make sense. Then centralized UD athletic facilities could occupy property on both sides of Stewart near Main.

It just seems that whatever is done with Baujan still will result in a cramped facility.

Just thoughts.

Medford · #29 10-18-2013, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Scout86

Another of my 2 cents, my oldest son is Director of corporate relations for Purdue University.....there's been a handful of large universities offer him jobs as they were trying to build up there endowments for nice new facilities....I know for a fact he brings in millions + per year for there programs ...does Dayton someone that works with Large companies for these things ?

Yes, yes they do, large companies, small companies, individual doners, etc...

DetroitFlyer · #30 10-18-2013, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

In spite of UD's added acreage, the core academic, residential campus still is very crowded and cramped. Re Baujan, while a quaint, pleasant venue, I doubt if there are many top-tier soccer venues where the ball frquently bouces off buildings. Indeed, it seems a bit strange to me having an athletic facility right in the middle of campus.

With that in mind, how about abandoning Baujan all together,....reserving the space for a future academic or residential buildings,....maybe even the arts center.

Instead, build a multi-purpose athletic facility along the east side of Main St. near the corner of Stewart. That leaves the corner of Brown and Stewart for academic expansion.....with the area to the west devoted entirely to athletics....both game day and practice.

Whatever, this requires really careful thought....including the possibility of grouping FB, soccer and LAX at one location away from the academic/residential core...but still much closer than across the river, e.g., as is Welcome. Moreover, also to be considered in planning is the liklihood that Fairgrounds property may become available. UD and MVH have a huge stake in how that property is developed. Seems to me that a deal whereby MVH buys the north half and UD the south half might make sense. Then centralized UD athletic facilities could occupy property on both sides of Stewart near Main.

It just seems that whatever is done with Baujan still will result in a cramped facility.

Just thoughts.

The last I heard, when football is moved back to Baujan, the stadium and field will be reconfigured into a horseshoe opening out into the student neighborhood. Not easy as it looks like lots of dirt would have to be moved, but certainly not unusual in construction. If that is the case, the cramped feeling would be greatly diminished.

ud69 · #31 10-18-2013, 09:52 AM

I have a hard time understanding how an athletic department that had to scrape together the $1-2MM to replace the lite-bright boards at the arena can justify $20-30MM to move football to Baujan for 5 games a year. What is the ROI?

Always Proud · #32 10-18-2013, 09:59 AM

For once I can say everyone has brought some great points and counter points to the whole issue. It seems it is more than just a football stadium issue.

One point of contention I would like to first say is about football being non-revenue generating sport. While the coffers which it is tracked too may reflect this belief, my argument has always been this. How many of the 100+ kids on the team would be someplace else if football was not D1 which travelled and gave the kids some opportunities they have? I would bet most of the kids are paying full tuition less whatever academic scholarship money. My point being that the program is generating money although indirectly.

Now for my other point. I've always said buy the fairgrounds and build a stadium there. It is fairly close to campus. The kids can stumble across Brown and Stewart streets for the game after grabbing some pick me up on Brown St. Parking can be the 'S' lots and build more on the corner of Stewart and Main. It is still considered campus area and has room to grow. You can even charge for tailgate parking like everyone else. A dedicated site would be great way to go.

If that doesn't work, then play hardball with DPS like others suggested. There is no way DPS high school games bring in any money. On Saturday's it's an embaarassment that in no way, shape, or form do you feel like you are in a UD stadium. Heck, you don't even see a welcome to UD campus sign until Main and Stewart.

DetroitFlyer · #33 10-18-2013, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by ud69

I have a hard time understanding how an athletic department that had to scrape together the $1-2MM to replace the lite-bright boards at the arena can justify $20-30MM to move football to Baujan for 5 games a year. What is the ROI?

If ROI were the sole criteria for athletics, we would only be playing men's basketball and maybe women's basketball for Title IX. Not everything at UD, including academic programs, has a positive ROI. Granted, more do than don't or we would be the US Government. Still, some investments are made on college campuses for reasons other than straight, easily defined and quantified ROI.

Flyer Gramps · #34 10-18-2013, 10:17 AM

Attn: comebackkids0708 need somebody to clean out that overfilled Private Message Box.

Maybe we all should check the count in ours?

Always Proud · #35 10-18-2013, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer

If ROI were the sole criteria for athletics, we would only be playing men's basketball and maybe women's basketball for Title IX. Not everything at UD, including academic programs, has a positive ROI. Granted, more do than don't or we would be the US Government. Still, some investments are made on college campuses for reasons other than straight, easily defined and quantified ROI.

Great Point... Even the money machine at tOSU has deficits in most of their sports. If it were not for one sport in particular, they would not have the Taj Mahal of facilities they have.

DetroitFlyer · #36 10-18-2013, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Always Proud

For once I can say everyone has brought some great points and counter points to the whole issue. It seems it is more than just a football stadium issue.

One point of contention I would like to first say is about football being non-revenue generating sport. While the coffers which it is tracked too may reflect this belief, my argument has always been this. How many of the 100+ kids on the team would be someplace else if football was not D1 which travelled and gave the kids some opportunities they have? I would bet most of the kids are paying full tuition less whatever academic scholarship money. My point being that the program is generating money although indirectly.

Now for my other point. I've always said buy the fairgrounds and build a stadium there. It is fairly close to campus. The kids can stumble across Brown and Stewart streets for the game after grabbing some pick me up on Brown St. Parking can be the 'S' lots and build more on the corner of Stewart and Main. It is still considered campus area and has room to grow. You can even charge for tailgate parking like everyone else. A dedicated site would be great way to go.

If that doesn't work, then play hardball with DPS like others suggested. There is no way DPS high school games bring in any money. On Saturday's it's an embaarassment that in no way, shape, or form do you feel like you are in a UD stadium. Heck, you don't even see a welcome to UD campus sign until Main and Stewart.

the momentum building for moving back to campus will be a powerful negotiating tool relative to Welcome. As a fan that has only ever attended home games at Welcome Stadium, (started going in 1980), I am fed up with the DPS nonsense there. IMHO, DPS goes out of its way to rub the fact that we play in a high school stadium in our faces. I do not give a rats patootie who the folks are that run DPS that flash up on the scoreboard at every game. In fact, just seeing their smiling faces feels like another direct slap at UD. Many here have never traveled to USD, Drake, or any other PFL venue. Outside of Stetson, they all have dedicated football stadiums on campus with great big school logos everywhere. For a school of UD's standing to have virtually nothing relative to the school at its "football stadium" is an embarassment. Trust me, the PFL flags that one cannot even read and the silly looking banners that are fixed to the rails scream third class all the way. As a fan, the only possible Welcome Stadium solution acceptable to me is for UD to own the stadium outright period. It would have to our to do with as we please. No more stinkin "Kettering Health Network" field.... Let's just say that after 33 years, I do not hold out any hope that a viable Welcome Stadium solution can be acheived.

ud69 · #37 10-18-2013, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer

If ROI were the sole criteria for athletics, we would only be playing men's basketball and maybe women's basketball for Title IX. Not everything at UD, including academic programs, has a positive ROI. Granted, more do than don't or we would be the US Government. Still, some investments are made on college campuses for reasons other than straight, easily defined and quantified ROI.

By ROI I was referring to both tangible ($) and intangible reasons. What are they?

PIONEER 8 · #38 10-18-2013, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Always Proud

For once I can say everyone has brought some great points and counter points to the whole issue. It seems it is more than just a football stadium issue.

One point of contention I would like to first say is about football being non-revenue generating sport. While the coffers which it is tracked too may reflect this belief, my argument has always been this. How many of the 100+ kids on the team would be someplace else if football was not D1 which travelled and gave the kids some opportunities they have? I would bet most of the kids are paying full tuition less whatever academic scholarship money. My point being that the program is generating money although indirectly.

Now for my other point. I've always said buy the fairgrounds and build a stadium there. It is fairly close to campus. The kids can stumble across Brown and Stewart streets for the game after grabbing some pick me up on Brown St. Parking can be the 'S' lots and build more on the corner of Stewart and Main. It is still considered campus area and has room to grow. You can even charge for tailgate parking like everyone else. A dedicated site would be great way to go.

If that doesn't work, then play hardball with DPS like others suggested. There is no way DPS high school games bring in any money. On Saturday's it's an embaarassment that in no way, shape, or form do you feel like you are in a UD stadium. Heck, you don't even see a welcome to UD campus sign until Main and Stewart.

The point about football being a non revenue sport is and interesting issue. If you have not noticed there has been an explosion of football programs or an expansion of programs at schools that did not have football a few years ago (Ohio Dominican, Malone, Lake Erie, Notre Dame College,...). I talked so some school administrators about why they decided to start a football program given the costs. I was told that studies show that you can increase your enrollment by 20% if you have a football team because it brings a level of excitement to the school that you don't have otherwise.

UDDoug · #39 10-18-2013, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by PIONEER 8

The point about football being a non revenue sport is and interesting issue. If you have not noticed there has been an explosion of football programs or an expansion of programs at schools that did not have football a few years ago (Ohio Dominican, Malone, Lake Erie, Notre Dame College,...). I talked so some school administrators about why they decided to start a football program given the costs. I was told that studies show that you can increase your enrollment by 20% if you have a football team because it brings a level of excitement to the school that you don't have otherwise.

That might be true, but UD isn't looking to increase enrollment by even 1%. They want to decrease enrollment.

DetroitFlyer · #40 10-18-2013, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

That might be true, but UD isn't looking to increase enrollment by even 1%. They want to decrease enrollment.

They want to stay about the same over time. It will vary year to year, but the overall numbers should not change much. UD is working to become much more of a "first choice" school for top level HS students, (get the applications up and the acceptance rates down). You know, US News and World Reports rankings....

UD62 · #41 10-18-2013, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by PIONEER 8

The point about football being a non revenue sport is and interesting issue. If you have not noticed there has been an explosion of football programs or an expansion of programs at schools that did not have football a few years ago (Ohio Dominican, Malone, Lake Erie, Notre Dame College,...). I talked so some school administrators about why they decided to start a football program given the costs. I was told that studies show that you can increase your enrollment by 20% if you have a football team because it brings a level of excitement to the school that you don't have otherwise.

Given the pathetic support that the students provide to all sports teams, It is hard to see the "excitement" that football. or basketball for that matter, provides. Excitement for family, grads and the general public maybe, but from the student body, not so much.

DetroitFlyer · #42 10-18-2013, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by ud69

By ROI I was referring to both tangible ($) and intangible reasons. What are they?

reason USD is consistently ranked above UD by US News & World reports is because they have their own football stadium on campus while UD does not.... Our peer review is much lower because we cannot even afford to have our own football stadium for a program that has been playing for well over 100 years....

PIONEER 8 · #43 10-18-2013, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

That might be true, but UD isn't looking to increase enrollment by even 1%. They want to decrease enrollment.

Not sure if it holds true but what if they lost 20% of their enrollment? I don't think that would be well received. My point is only that evidently (I only know what I was told and it was a surprise to me) a vibrant football program on campus has benefits to the university above and beyond the pure dollars and cents of football. It will also increase applications and allow UD to become more selective. It is known as the "Flutie Effect" after the boost that Boston College received after Doug Flutie won the Heisman. I know we are not looking to win the Heisman but see below about what happened to Appalachian State after their back to back FCS championships.

ASU had a "Flutie Effect" after winning multiple Division I FCS championships and upsetting Michigan with Armanti Edwards as their quarterback. Five years after the Michigan game, CBSSports.com writer Dennis Dodd claimed that it was "tied directly to a 17 percent increase in applicants, a 24 percent boost in attendance and a 73 percent goose in licensing royalties."[7]

UD62 · #44 10-18-2013, 01:54 PM

Check out the Business Insider ranking under social schools in the basketball forum. Not to shabby for a school without a football stadium on campus.

Chris R · #45 10-18-2013, 02:06 PM

App State football and Dayton football are different animals however. One is funded to compete nationally for an NCAA title. The other is not. Nobody comes to Dayton to enjoy the university experience because of UD football. Even when UD football is on top. Just like nobody comes here because the volleyball team is any good -- unless you are actually being recruited to play those respective sports (which is a perfectly good reason to come to UD).

Maybe, and thats a big maybe, there is some tie-in with mens basketball and enrolling kids who have followed that program since they were young and are children of UD grads. But even that is probably unlikely. On any given night, the UD student section is 2/3 empty at UD Arena. Its just not a priority.

PIONEER 8 · #46 10-18-2013, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Chris R

App State football and Dayton football are different animals however. One is funded to compete nationally for an NCAA title. The other is not. Nobody comes to Dayton to enjoy the university experience because of UD football. Even when UD football is on top. Just like nobody comes here because the volleyball team is any good -- unless you are actually being recruited to play those respective sports (which is a perfectly good reason to come to UD).

Maybe, and thats a big maybe, there is some tie-in with mens basketball and enrolling kids who have followed that program since they were young and are children of UD grads. But even that is probably unlikely. On any given night, the UD student section is 2/3 empty at UD Arena. Its just not a priority.

I was just using App State because of the FCS football tie in. There are multiple examples including Mount Union and its football program. If you want another nearby example see below:

Two studies estimated that television, print, and online news coverage of Butler University's men's basketball team's 2010 and 2011 appearances in the NCAA tournament championship game resulted in additional publicity for the university worth about $1.2 billion. In an example of the "Flutie Effect", applications rose by 41% after the 2010 appearance.[5]

The impact is real and administrators recognize it.

ud69 · #47 10-18-2013, 02:13 PM

9/1/07 - App State 34 Michigan 32 - Another difference between App State and Dayton football.

Mount Union 2012 average home attendance - 3296
Dayton 2012 average home attendance - 3213

DetroitFlyer · #48 10-18-2013, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by UD62

Check out the Business Insider ranking under social schools in the basketball forum. Not to shabby for a school without a football stadium on campus.

Basketball forum? Why would I go there? This is football season baby!

DetroitFlyer · #49 10-18-2013, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by ud69

9/1/07 - App State 34 Michigan 32 - Another difference between App State and Dayton football.

Akron almost beat Michigan this year. There is no doubt that in a good year our Flyers could hang with App or Akron. Heck, we could probably beat one or both of them this season. Michigan might be another story. Still, give me a Tino or Hoyng at QB and who knows....

Chris R · #50 10-18-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by PIONEER 8

Two studies estimated that television, print, and online news coverage of Butler University's men's basketball team's 2010 and 2011 appearances in the NCAA tournament championship game resulted in additional publicity for the university worth about $1.2 billion. In an example of the "Flutie Effect", applications rose by 41% after the 2010 appearance.[5]

The impact is real and administrators recognize it.

You just proved my point. Butler football was irrelevant to the Butler boom. The Flutie Effect was in basketball -- the only sport at Butler that has the power to even have such effect. I bet 98% of those 41% boomers never even knew Butler had a football team.

comebackkids0708 · #51 10-19-2013, 02:25 AM

All good conversation going, but maybe were getting too deep in the weeds here. We're not talking a massive stadium in fact all that is being changed from a current structure is the music building (would be renovated even if football wasn't coming back) and the parking lot that sits behind the soccer bleachers, I forget the lot letter it has. From what I understand their essentially building a grand stand on top of that parking lot. I wish i could draw it up for everyone but if you're familiar with campus I'm sure you can picture it. The music building is being renovated, much more cost effective then a new build. Thats not to say there wont be some brick removal but i cant see a ton. The opposite side to that grand stand will be interesting to see how that plays in, maybe Press Box? Band seating? Who knows?

Gramps, box is empty, sorry about that.

UACFlyer · #52 10-19-2013, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by comebackkids0708

All good conversation going, but maybe were getting too deep in the weeds here. We're not talking a massive stadium in fact all that is being changed from a current structure is the music building (would be renovated even if football wasn't coming back) and the parking lot that sits behind the soccer bleachers, I forget the lot letter it has. From what I understand their essentially building a grand stand on top of that parking lot. I wish i could draw it up for everyone but if you're familiar with campus I'm sure you can picture it. The music building is being renovated, much more cost effective then a new build. Thats not to say there wont be some brick removal but i cant see a ton. The opposite side to that grand stand will be interesting to see how that plays in, maybe Press Box? Band seating? Who knows?

Gramps, box is empty, sorry about that.

The Master Plan calls for demolishion of the Music Bldg. You are talking about renovation. Where did you get that information?

Certainly, Music is large enough for use as a support bldg for a renovated Baujan complex, e.g, lockers, rest rooms, etc. Perhaps that's the plan. In any case, what is the source of your information?

comebackkids0708 · #53 10-19-2013, 10:33 AM

I'm not sure the degree of renovation, and that can or could have changed since I heard. I don't think it's going to be a few new windows though if you know what I mean. I've yet to see actual drawings, pretty sure just the big donors and admin that is involved have. The framework is there though as you stated.

Its game time everyone, we can discuss this at a later date. Go Flyers!

Flyer Gramps · #54 10-19-2013, 11:29 AM

This morning's front page is half about Wake Forest. They kicked off a very public $1Billion campaign (along with Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center). $280M for building improvements (Wake moved here in 1958), $190M for student scholarships, $130M for endowed faculty chairs. They are trying to compete against other universities that have far more money.

"Unfortunately, capital does make a difference in the students we can admit, the student experience, faculty requirements and retention and national ranking"

One of the alums in town was Arnold Palmer, for the unveiling of his 9' tall, 1392# statue at the W-F Golf Center. Arnie also drove a golf cart to deliver the 5 millionth Meals on Wheels meal for Senior Services Inc. to an 84 year-old woman who said she felt "delirious" seeing him walk into her house. He sat and chatted for a while. (the basketball millionaire, Duncan, almost never returns)

I can't say that I would have read both of these stories had it not been for things pointed out in this thread discussion of today's college business.

Scout86 · #55 10-19-2013, 12:53 PM

Rain is outta here

jack72 · #56 10-20-2013, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Flyer Gramps

This morning's front page is half about Wake Forest. They kicked off a very public $1Billion campaign (along with Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center). $280M for building improvements (Wake moved here in 1958), $190M for student scholarships, $130M for endowed faculty chairs. They are trying to compete against other universities that have far more money.

"Unfortunately, capital does make a difference in the students we can admit, the student experience, faculty requirements and retention and national ranking"

One of the alums in town was Arnold Palmer, for the unveiling of his 9' tall, 1392# statue at the W-F Golf Center. Arnie also drove a golf cart to deliver the 5 millionth Meals on Wheels meal for Senior Services Inc. to an 84 year-old woman who said she felt "delirious" seeing him walk into her house. He sat and chatted for a while. (the basketball millionaire, Duncan, almost never returns)

I can't say that I would have read both of these stories had it not been for things pointed out in this thread discussion of today's college business.

I live about 10 minutes from where Arnie played his college golf before Wake Forest moved out of Wake Forest. It is a very basic and short 9 hole course. My how times change.