Archie... Not Good - Page 2

Smitty10 · #**101** 03-25-2017, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by TommyGola

This convinces me that those so-called "long-term contracts" aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

The contracts are worth everything to the coach and hardly anything to the program.

We all knew this day would come, or at least most of us did. But this stings based on the fact we are probably going to lose most if not all 6 of the new players coming in. The timing couldn't be worse.

I loved AM's pattern of small class/big class/small class/big class. Seemed to always keep the right mix of freshman/sophomore to Juniors/seniors. But now, it hurts us. Especially when the big classes were going to be a Freshman/Junior mix. A sophomore Senior mix would've been preferable for obvious reasons in that they all would've spent either a year or 3 years on campus and on the court and would be less likely to leave.

UD_Earl · #**102** 03-25-2017, 02:46 PM

This just proves that you cannot trust anything any coach says - I was totally fooled by him. Archie once said that he would be here as long as UD wanted him - thats somewhat of a quote. Kinda sad. There are few Mark Few's out there. Not many coaches seem happier than Few. Crean seemed much happier at Marquette. Crean would be my first choice as a replacement. Immediate credibility.

CvilleFlyer · #**103** 03-25-2017, 02:46 PM

Thanks, Archie for making THE University of Dayton Basketball name more prominent in your six year stay. In the Elite eight run the Flyers became the darlings of college basketball.
Good luck at Indiana and Godspeed. No hard feelings from this fan!

Also, I would also like to thank Tim Wabler for taking a chance and hiring a young and unproved Archie Miller six years ago! I'm sure he would thank you as well!

UD_Earl · #**104** 03-25-2017, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

The contracts are worth everything to the coach and hardly anything to the program.

We all knew this day would come, or at least most of us did. But this stings based on the fact we are probably going to lose most if not all 6 of the new players coming in. The timing couldn't be worse.

I loved AM's pattern of small class/big class/small class/big class. Seemed to always keep the right mix of freshman/sophomore to Juniors/seniors. But now, it hurts us. Especially when the big classes were going to be a Freshman/Junior mix. A sophomore Senior mix would've been preferable for obvious reasons in that they all would've spent either a year or 3 years on campus and on the court and would be less likely to leave.

Doubt was see all of this Freshman class show up....

Cityengr · #**105** 03-25-2017, 02:49 PM

Congrats to Archie and family but hate to see him go.

Certainly not surprising tho. Still in Midwest to a great institution with a storied basketball legacy with a cupboard that's certainly not bare. IU loses one SR with 8-9 returning athletic players who on any given night could win in the Big Ten.

Expect Bryant, Blackmon, OG Anouby, Johnson Davis to flourish under Archie's guidance and system. Our loss is certainly IUs gain.

Flyer 86 · #**106** 03-25-2017, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan

@%@$^@$%@%

$&%$&/=÷

Had slight feeling on this. **** **** ****!

Flyer 86 · #**107** 03-25-2017, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by springborofan

I'm not sold on any of our assistant coaches as being prepared to take over the helm but I think Sullivan needs to seriously consider one of them as AM's replacement. This recruiting class is so important it would be horrible to lose most if not all of them.

If not one of them, I think Anthony Grant should be a top candidate. The primary reason is I think he would stay and not look as this as a stepping stone. He had success at VCU and obviously has ties to the University.

The problem with a young top assistant is exactly what happened. The risk is high and the short/intermediate return can be high but the long term high is probably unattainable. It just doesn't make sense to do the same again unless it is one of the current assistants for continuity purposes.

Agreed 100%. Let's talk to AG

Bucketnight · #**108** 03-25-2017, 03:13 PM

Wish Archie the best. This has been the best run of any coach since I started following the program. I'm not surprised Archie would take Indiana. I think he will be a great fit and restore them to being a powerhouse.

I've read the hand wringing posts about the recruits. Like most, I am concerned as well. But the potential for lost recruits was going to be an issue no matter when Archie left. I wish it wasn't in such a transition year but it is what it is. It is completely speculative to believe this is the best class ever. Are we ranked anywhere in that regarding that? Not saying the class isn't or wouldn't have been but not sure who has built up so much outside of people on this board.

I would think we could be looking at several graduate transfers to ease the transition if we do lose them (and I expect there will be at least some). With the unknowns of the returning players that may be the best thing anyway.

Finally, I can't help feeling this adds even more to the season that could have been.

Good luck to Archie and thanks.

SLUFLYER · #**109** 03-25-2017, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by UD_Earl

This just proves that you cannot trust anything any coach says - I was totally fooled by him. Archie once said that he would be here as long as UD wanted him - thats somewhat of a quote. Kinda sad. There are few Mark Few's out there. Not many coaches seem happier than Few. Crean seemed much happier at Marquette. Crean would be my first choice as a replacement. Immediate credibility.

I'm reading/hearing a lot of revisionist history out here, twitter, FBook, etc., not just with this post but many others.

I don't feel betrayed or lied to in any way by the comments Archie has made over the years. Archie handled everything from start to finish with as much honesty and transparency as I have ever seen. I've never heard him say he's never leaving and I've never heard he's staying forever.

jack72 · #**110** 03-25-2017, 03:22 PM

Does not matter if Archie recruits our incoming class. Minn and others will be all over Wright, and SC and others will be all over Davis.

This sucks losing Archie, and will suck even more if we lose more than one of the recruits. A really bad non-verbal message sent by the leaving coach to a recruit is that this school was not quite good enough for me. You can be sure that will be said by SC and MN, who are tweeting our two guys right now.

I fully believed that if Archie wanted to leave, he would take the IU job. I never believed all the OSU fans, who thought he was waiting for his/their so-called dream job. I doubt this came down to money, or location. So as I, and others, have said, Archie cannot recruit at a top level at UD, and that is why he left.

Smitty10 · #**111** 03-25-2017, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

Does not matter if Archie recruits our incoming class. Minn and others will be all over Wright, and SC and others will be all over Davis.

This sucks losing Archie, and will suck even more if we lose more than one of the recruits. A really bad non-verbal message sent by the leaving coach to a recruit is that this school was not quite good enough for me. You can be sure that will be said by SC and MN, who are tweeting our two guys right now.

I fully believed that if Archie wanted to leave, he would take the IU job. I never believed all the OSU fans, who thought he was waiting for his/their so-called dream job. I doubt this came down to money, or location. So as I, and others, have said, Archie cannot recruit at a top level at UD, and that is why he left.

You can bank on losing more than one recruit. You can prop up the University all you want, but the reason 90 percent or more of basketball players sign is because of the coach that recruited them. If we have an assistant coach that played a major role in the recruitment of these young men, and if that means holding on to the majority of our expected 2017-2018 roster, we better go that way and quickly.

jack72 · #**112** 03-25-2017, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

You can bank on losing more than one recruit. You can prop up the University all you want, but the reason 90 percent or more of basketball players sign is because of the coach that recruited them. If we have an assistant coach that played a major role in the recruitment of these young men, and if that means holding on to the majority of our expected 2017-2018 roster, we better go that way and quickly.

Agree with your first sentence. Your third sentence, only if that assistant is the best coaching candidate long term. Next year may be a rebuild anyway, so hire the best coach, and lose some recruits. Don't forget that is exactly what happened with Archie, and that turned out pretty great.

longtimefan · #**113** 03-25-2017, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

I doubt this came down to money, or location. So as I, and others, have said, Archie cannot recruit at a top level at UD, and that is why he left.

Now just wait for Sitdowndigger to ask you what good Sean's recruits have done him at Arizona.

Smitty10 · #**114** 03-25-2017, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

Agree with your first sentence. Your third sentence, only if that assistant is the best coaching candidate long term. Next year may be a rebuild anyway, so hire the best coach, and lose some recruits. Don't forget that is exactly what happened with Archie, and that turned out pretty great.

Yes, it did work out great. But I'd rather follow the Xavier model of continuity. That's turned out better.

You would think that the program would have been grooming someone for this situation. If that coach is not on our payroll, that's disappointing to me because that should be a goal.

T-Bone 84 · #**115** 03-25-2017, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rubber_City_Flyer

You would hope Dayton put in a solid buyout into his contract to at least help contribute to the next coach's salary.

If they didn't, then the next thing President Spina needs to turn his attention to is getting some new attorneys on staff/retainer.

jack72 · #**116** 03-25-2017, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Now just wait for Sitdowndigger to ask you what good Sean's recruits have done him at Arizona.

Or ask Shaka Smart, or Thad Matta, or several other guys. Does not matter because Archie, and guys like him, think they are better, smarter stronger, and will succeed. And I would not bet against Archie.

T-Bone 84 · #**117** 03-25-2017, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

Or ask Shaka Smart, or Thad Matta, or several other guys. Does not matter because Archie, and guys like him, think they are better, smarter stronger, and will succeed. And I would not bet against Archie.

I wouldn't bet against Archie, either, but let's see how the IU fan base's expectations align with what Archie is able to deliver. Will make for some interesting "trolling" for me over the next 4-5 years.

shocka43 · #**118** 03-25-2017, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

We all knew this day would come, or at least most of us did. But this stings based on the fact we are probably going to lose most if not all 6 of the new players coming in. The timing couldn't be worse.

Granted it's bad timing, but toss this in there for a minute.

I would look at this from the angle of Archie being loyal to players versus an employer.

Archie committed to this years senior class. He understands that he most likely wouldn't be here to see the incoming freshman out in 4 years. Maybe he felt it was easier to get out now with the commitments he has to current players, than make those same commitments to the incoming players.

Yes...it sucks. But maybe he is a man of his word and didn't want not make good on that word with new guys.

Smitty10 · #**119** 03-25-2017, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

I wouldn't bet against Archie, either, but let's see how the IU fan base's expectations align with what Archie is able to deliver. Will make for some interesting "trolling" for me over the next 4-5 years.

Funny how similar the perspective is over on IU board. We're disappointed in losing AM and their disappointed they couldn't get anyone better. They're having a hard time coming to terms that just because he didn't win a national championship at Dayton, doesn't mean he can't at IU. They are picking at his Offense and defense efficiency, his lack of top 100 recruits, the fact he's only gotten to and past the sweet 16 once etc... These people don't realize how lucky they really are.

Smitty10 · #**120** 03-25-2017, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Granted it's bad timing, but toss this in there for a minute.

I would look at this from the angle of Archie being loyal to players versus an employer.

Archie committed to this years senior class. He understands that he most likely wouldn't be here to see the incoming freshman out in 4 years. Maybe he felt it was easier to get out now with the commitments he has to current players, than make those same commitments to the incoming players.

Yes...it sucks. But maybe he is a man of his word and didn't want not make good on that word with new guys.

I agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm sad for the initial losses to the program. But I am not at all angry at Archie. He's pure class in my opinion and we were lucky to have him.

T-Bone 84 · #**121** 03-25-2017, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

Funny how similar the perspective is over on IU board. We're disappointed in losing AM and their disappointed they couldn't get anyone better. They're having a hard time coming to terms that just because he didn't win a national championship at Dayton, doesn't mean he can't at IU. They are picking at his Offense and defense efficiency, his lack of top 100 recruits, the fact he's only gotten to and past the sweet 16 once etc... These people don't realize how lucky they really are.

Yes, Smitty10, and my concern is that, 2-3 years from now, if he starts the conference season 1-5 as he did here (in 2013-14), they'll be calling for his head, and the IU administration may be short-sighted enough to deliver it. Then, where are we all?

UD will be in Year 3 of the post-Archie rebuild/reload (and who knows what that will look like?), IU will be looking for "the next Bobby Knight (again), and Archie will be out of coaching for awhile, and then land at a place like Iowa State or Pitt that, while "big names", are hardly the class of their respective leagues.

Maybe my concern is unfounded. Who knows? But I was concerned that, once IU fired Crean, Archie would be on their short list, and look how that turned out. Not saying it "will happen". Just saying it's a very real possibility.

jack72 · #**122** 03-25-2017, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

Funny how similar the perspective is over on IU board. We're disappointed in losing AM and their disappointed they couldn't get anyone better. They're having a hard time coming to terms that just because he didn't win a national championship at Dayton, doesn't mean he can't at IU. They are picking at his Offense and defense efficiency, his lack of top 100 recruits, the fact he's only gotten to and past the sweet 16 once etc... These people don't realize how lucky they really are.

Yep, sort of like the Wright State fans, who are saying, what are those Flyer fans moaning about, they have it so great compared to us.

Falcon7 · #**123** 03-25-2017, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

I wouldn't bet against Archie, either, but let's see how the IU fan base's expectations align with what Archie is able to deliver. Will make for some interesting "trolling" for me over the next 4-5 years.

Yea, it's not going to be easy at all for Archie. Crean made the sweet 16; 3 out of the last 5 years.
Will he need at least a final 4 in the next 4-5 years, will that even be enough?

Sea Bass · #**124** 03-25-2017, 04:20 PM

AD wants a national title

Smitty10 · #**125** 03-25-2017, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

Yes, Smitty10, and my concern is that, 2-3 years from now, if he starts the conference season 1-5 as he did here (in 2013-14), they'll be calling for his head, and the IU administration may be short-sighted enough to deliver it. Then, where are we all?

UD will be in Year 3 of the post-Archie rebuild/reload (and who knows what that will look like?), IU will be looking for "the next Bobby Knight (again), and Archie will be out of coaching for awhile, and then land at a place like Iowa State or Pitt that, while "big names", are hardly the class of their respective leagues.

Maybe my concern is unfounded. Who knows? But I was concerned that, once IU fired Crean, Archie would be on their short list, and look how that turned out. Not saying it "will happen". Just saying it's a very real possibility.

I don't know. You're concern is that Indiana will not be patient and you and I can say "That would be a mistake on their part.". I can only imagine that both Indiana and AM will do what's best for all involved and they are the experts compared to you and me.

Let's remember that 1-5 conference start was somewhat of a different AM. If I recall correctly he said that he talked with other coaches and realized that he was being to uptight and causing dread among the team. He changed it up and we've seen nothing but success since then. He was inexperienced and he learned, that's why he was sought after for more lucrative jobs now than before. He's a better coach.

Personally I don't see how one of his assistants wouldn't be the natural choice. I mean, didn't they learn from the master? If not enough, I'll be surprised. If I'm a step lower and report to the man who was this successful, wouldn't I use that as a mentoring?

We'll see. But everything about AM shouts success for the future. He absolutely has passed my eye test and certainly has the DNA.

maddog07 · #**126** 03-25-2017, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum

If McKinley Wright bails, where in the he'll does that leave us?

We have Crosby!!!!!

shocka43 · #**127** 03-25-2017, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

Yes, Smitty10, and my concern is that, 2-3 years from now, if he starts the conference season 1-5 as he did here (in 2013-14), they'll be calling for his head, and the IU administration may be short-sighted enough to deliver it. Then, where are we all?

UD will be in Year 3 of the post-Archie rebuild/reload (and who knows what that will look like?), IU will be looking for "the next Bobby Knight (again), and Archie will be out of coaching for awhile, and then land at a place like Iowa State or Pitt that, while "big names", are hardly the class of their respective leagues.

Maybe my concern is unfounded. Who knows? But I was concerned that, once IU fired Crean, Archie would be on their short list, and look how that turned out. Not saying it "will happen". Just saying it's a very real possibility.

The leash is shorter at a P5 school...especially one like IU that isn't where the BK old money wants them to be.

With that said, if anyone is up for the task, it is AM. I simply don't see him not being successful enough anywhere he goes to hang on to a job for as long as he wants it.

I don't see AM being out of coaching anytime in the near future. I also don't see him failing at IU.

Falcon7 · #**128** 03-25-2017, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

I don't know. You're concern is that Indiana will not be patient and you and I can say "That would be a mistake on their part.". I can only imagine that both Indiana and AM will do what's best for all involved and they are the experts compared to you and me.

Let's remember that 1-5 conference start was somewhat of a different AM. If I recall correctly he said that he talked with other coaches and realized that he was being to uptight and causing dread among the team. He changed it up and we've seen nothing but success since then. He was inexperienced and he learned, that's why he was sought after for more lucrative jobs now than before. He's a better coach.

Personally I don't see how one of his assistants wouldn't be the natural choice. I mean, didn't they learn from the master? If not enough, I'll be surprised. If I'm a step lower and report to the man who was this successful, wouldn't I use that as a mentoring?

We'll see. But everything about AM shouts success for the future. He absolutely has passed my eye test and certainly has the DNA.

Maybe he's an elite coach, is he also an elite recruiter?

Smitty10 · #**129** 03-25-2017, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by jack72

Yep, sort of like the Wright State fans, who are saying, what are those Flyer fans moaning about, they have it so great compared to us.

What shining star did we ever snatch from Wright State and then complain about?

And nowhere did I complain that they have it much better than us. Just that I agree that their University made a great decision.

Smitty10 · #**130** 03-25-2017, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon7

Maybe he's an elite coach, is he also an elite recruiter?

His help in recruiting at Ohio State and the fact he's gotten more talent to come to the Flyers then I can remember since the Donoher days, yes, I'm betting he is.

Indiana is a prestigious basketball school that helps in recruiting before you even bring in the coach. Dayton not as much.

It takes a great all around basketball coach to accomplish what he did here. He's now moving up where he has new shinier, more advanced set of tools to work with. It will transfer to Indiana, I've got no doubt.

Don · #**131** 03-25-2017, 04:42 PM

Yes, I agree we have upgraded each of the last three times we hired a new coach. BUT....what was the result? Our team improved but never to the level most of us aspire to and hope for. AM came the closest by far, but except for the E8 season, the others all ended in disappointment, despite averaging 25 wins/season.
The reality is that even if we hired the next John Wooden, about the best we could hope for is that he repairs the damage left by
AMs departure, and over the next 4-5 years, gets us again to the Sweet 16/Elite 8 level. At that point, he'll move on to Big Time U. and we'll be right back where we are now. The main reason our recent coaches couldn't get us any higher is because they could not recruit very many 4-star or better prospects. They had to do the best they could with 3-stars and an occasional e-star. This is probably the best we can ever hope for or expect, unless we can upgrade our profile by getting an invite to a higher profile conference. Since the big FB conferences are out of the question, the NBE may be our best, and possibly only hope to ever get the UD program to the next level consistently.

shocka43 · #**132** 03-25-2017, 05:00 PM

Fans need to be realistic too...

What is the ceiling at UD?

What is the expectation, year after year?

What kind of coach does it take?

Our E8 run was awesome. With all things considered....the stars were aligned and some good fortune was upon UD. Face it...no one thought in a million years that UD would have done what they did that year.

Realistically...take the E8 run out and make that year a round of 32 year or maybe S16. You have to look at UD hoops and realistically come across and say that UD met or exceeded expectations without that E8 run. I think any coach that does that, will have to be considered successful in the eyes of a school like UD.

Sure, the occasional S16, E8...may happen and with this good trend will happen But winning your conference, appearing in the NCAA more often than not, and getting wins here and there in the NCAA is pretty much hitting the bar and a non-P5 school.

UDTradition · #**133** 03-25-2017, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic1986

I am get banned for this, but I have to say it. I am ****ed. While thankful that Archie was at Dayton and made the Flyer relevant again, I am afraid his leaving may set the program back 10+ years.

By many accounts he has a very good recruiting class coming in. If many of them decide to look elsewhere, what does this do to the program? Hire from within, perhaps but are the assistant coaches going to even stay or move to IU with Archie?

If we can keep the new recruits, great, but I don't believe Wright, Carter, Davis and Svoboda will come. This change is going to leave this team and program in a world of hurt for a number of years. If Archie had stayed through this coming season, I would feel differently, but this is the worse possible time.

Maybe we should ask the media to not report on Archie leaving. Wouldn't want to send the wrong impression about UD.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------
IMO - Maybe we should not encourage the Freshman to flee... You both have vented ... I respectfully ask you to give it a rest. Let's make posts that encourage the Freshman to remain loyal to their commitment not post doomsday... Let's encourage them to realize that UD has always replaced their coach with a better one...

Lifelong Flyer Fan · #**134** 03-25-2017, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84

If they didn't, then
the next thing President Spina needs to turn his attention to is getting some new attorneys on staff/retainer.

According to Neil in the video, no H and H in the contract.
http://www.whio.com/sports/archie-mi...oeKhOptOP0R1N/

sheg · #**135** 03-25-2017, 05:11 PM

THIS is why you don't let the classes get so out of balance.

T-Bone 84 · #**136** 03-25-2017, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

The leash is shorter at a P5 school...especially one like IU that isn't where the BK old money wants them to be.

With that said, if anyone is up for the task, it is AM. I simply don't see him not being successful enough anywhere he goes to hang on to a job for as long as he wants it.

I don't see AM being out of coaching anytime in the near future. I also don't see him failing at IU.

Agree completely, shocka43, but your first statement is the biggest hurdle to his success. His leash will undoubtedly be much shorter at IU.

To play the role of the IU supporter with unrealistic expectations, "He!!, he never won a conference tournament in the 6 years he was on his last job, and he's lost his last 3 NCAA Tournament games in a row!! How in the he!! is this guy going to win us the National Championship that we so rightfully deserve?!

" Sound about right?

Don't get me wrong. I thank him sincerely for what he did to bring success to and raise the profile of the program. And I sincerely wish him much success at IU. My question and concern are, how different is my definition of "success" from that of the average IU booster? If not too different, then I'm confident he'll be successful there. If radically different, then all I can say to Archie is, "Be careful what you wish for..."
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ud2 · #**137** 03-25-2017, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

I also don't see him failing at IU.

Agree...Archie is going to do well at IU IMO.

312to937 · #**138** 03-25-2017, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Fans need to be realistic too...

What is the ceiling at UD?

What is the expectation, year after year?

What kind of coach does it take?

Our E8 run was awesome. With all things considered....the stars were aligned and some good fortune was upon UD. Face it...no one thought in a million years that UD would have done what they did that year.

Realistically...take the E8 run out and make that year a round of 32 year or maybe S16. You have to look at UD hoops and realistically come across and say that UD met or exceeded expectations without that E8 run. I think any coach that does that, will have to be considered successful in the eyes of a school like UD.

Sure, the occasional S16, E8...may happen and with this good trend will happen But winning your conference, appearing in the NCAA more often than not, and getting wins here and there in the NCAA is pretty much hitting the bar and a non-P5 school.

UD has one NCAA tourney win (outside of UD Arena) in the last three years. So we are supposed to be satisfied with that being the best of times? George Mason had a Final Four run not that long ago. And Kent State made the Elite 8.

Tell Xavier or Butler (or Gonzaga) that non-P5 schools can't be successful. Tell them that one Sweet 16 appearance every 30 years is enough. Why can't UD mirror those programs? Consistent Top 20 twenty teams and numerous sweet 16 (or better) NCAA appearances. Both of those programs have done it with multiple coaches.

San Diego Flyer · #**139** 03-25-2017, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by NCkevi

On the one hand I can't blame him but on the other it is terrible timing. Losing 4 seniors, 5 incoming freshmen, young roster that could lead to transfers. My biggest concern is that we could a roster in 2017-18 that is less talented than Archie's first season.

I said earlier with Archie staying he should be COY if we made the NCAA's. Too much dynamics. We are looking at the over and under of 18 wins IF every commit and current player stays. Those 4 Seniors won us a ton of close games.

Actually would not want the H&H with IU next year. We are now rebuilding, period.

NCkevi · #**140** 03-25-2017, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Can't hate on Archie.

Can I hate on the AD for not having a contract with a home-home series if Archie's left?

SeasonTicketFan · #**141** 03-25-2017, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by NCkevi

Can I hate on the AD for not having a contract with a home-home series if Archie's left?

More important question. What was the buyout that Indiana had to pay UD? That better bevover seven figures. The money in the BG buyout helped UD move quickly to hire Archie.

UDBrian · #**142** 03-25-2017, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by NCkevi

On the one hand I can't blame him but on the other it is terrible timing. Losing 4 seniors, 5 incoming freshmen, young roster that could lead to transfers. My biggest concern is that we could a roster in 2017-18 that is less talented than Archie's first season.

It will probably take three years to recover from this unless the incoming coach has unreal recruiting roots. If everyone bolts the team could be at .500. There is some talent returning but the number of players available would be a disaster. I'm unsure if any of the assistants are a possibility. It certainly seems to be working out well for the women hiring an ex assistant.

They interviewed the parent of a UD student on Channel 7. He is from Indiana and was unhappy Archie didn't have Indiana roots

T-Bone 84 · #**143** 03-25-2017, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by UDBrian

It will probably take three years to recover from this unless the incoming coach has unreal recruiting roots. If everyone bolts the team could be at .500. There is some talent returning but the number of players available would be a disaster. I'm unsure if any of the assistants are a possibility. It certainly seems to be working out well for the women hiring an ex assistant.

They interviewed the parent of a UD student on Channel 7. He is from Indiana and was unhappy Archie didn't have Indiana roots

I agree about the transition period. Given the graduation losses, the loss of a top-notch HC, the possible (probable?) defection of 1 or more of the recruits, and the maturation of the players who still want to be Flyers, it's a given that the next year or 2 will be a bit bumpy.

As far as promoting an assistant is concerned, that can work well when the assistant is ready to be and capable of being a good HC. Don't know enough about Griffin, Kuwik, &/or Ostrom to make a comment. Would certainly help with continuity though.

As far as Archie not being from Indiana is concerned, if he gets them to multiple Final Fours, and wins a Championship or 3, he could be from Iraq and it wouldn't matter.
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Viperstick · #**144** 03-25-2017, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by rollo

Should I copyright 'Little General' now or wait a few weeks?

Too soon.

Maybe Generalisto?

Sitdowndigger · #**145** 03-25-2017, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Now just wait for Sitdowndigger to ask you what good Sean's recruits have done him at Arizona.

A lot of pride there sparky-hurts when your wrong. Sounds like someone needs to sing a Christmas carol. Wonder if Sean would have left if Arizona offered him the same or less money than Xavier to get what you deem better recruits. It's all about the $, mic dropped.

BRob2Perryman3 · #**146** 03-25-2017, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by rollo

Should I copyright 'Little General' now or wait a few weeks?

I already hold that copyright, its the nickname this girl gave my pe.............

Wait, nevermind

MikeFlyer · #**147** 03-25-2017, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by rollo

Mid majors hire assistants. We're (hopefully) past that now. We need an experienced head coach.

There is alot of BAD experienced head coaches out there!

AC91 · #**148** 03-25-2017, 07:30 PM

i said this to Chris on twitter and i'll say it here. I am disappointed. It was a tremendous run,and i am grateful for that, but Archie picked the worst time to go. If we are not able to hang onto these recruits and we still have not developed any assistants to maintain continuity and keep this recruiting class in tact then, honestly, how can you say we are in any different of a place now than when archie arrived? It's like starting all over again. That is why I'm hoping that one of the assistants was being groomed for this moment. i'm not usually this negative but this is really disappointing. i didnt think Archie would do it this year just because of the impact it would potentially have on the program.

MikeFlyer · #**149** 03-25-2017, 07:31 PM

[QUOTE=BRob2Perryman3;498986]I already hold that copyright, its the nickname this girl gave my pe.............

Wait, nevermind[

She calls it little for short?

Smitty10 · #**150** 03-25-2017, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by AC91

i said this to Chris on twitter and i'll say it here. I am disappointed. It was a tremendous run,and i am grateful for that, but Archie picked the worst time to go. If we are not able to hang onto these recruits and we still have not developed any assistants to maintain continuity and keep this recruiting class in tact then, honestly, how can you say we are in any different of a place now than when archie arrived? It's like starting all over again. That is why I'm hoping that one of the assistants was being groomed for this moment. i'm not usually this negative but this is really disappointing. i didnt think Archie would do it this year just because of the impact it would potentially have on the program.

Archie picking the worst time to go, for the program, yes, for himself, not at all. And you can't just bypass your career goal in life based on how you're leaving the previous program. So I can never rag on AM for that.

But I'm 100 percent behind you on the grooming of assistants. Heck, when recruiting, I'm sure the potential recruits would like to know what possibilities of you being in the program are for their 1st and 2nd years and who might take over the program when it happens. I mean, even recruits must be in the know that AM was a hot commodity and might not be with the program in the near future.

If you have a good record of promoting from within like Xavier, the recruit can get a better feel for how your program will move forward with a change.

So, yes, I'm with you, this will be very disappointing if there was nobody being groomed for this day.

shocka43 · #**151** 03-25-2017, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by NCkevi

Can I hate on the AD for not having a contract with a home-home series if Archie's left?

UD has bigger things to worry about than a H-H with the next destination.

Given the reputation that the Matta-Miller-Mack clan has....they won't play each other on their own accord...ever. Archie is cut from that same cloth and probably doesn't want that for anyone potentially coming to UD as a HC...the next coach very well may come from that same Matta-Miller-Mack coaching circle.

312to937 · #**152** 03-25-2017, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

1. Archie picking the worst time to go, for the program, yes, for himself, not at all. And you can't just bypass your career goal in life based on how you're leaving the previous program. So I can never rag on AM for that.

2. So, yes, I'm with you, this will be very disappointing if there was nobody being groomed for this day.

Bingo on point #1.

And disappointing because Archie left a pretty big three year hole on the recruiting side between the outgoing seniors and the incoming freshman.

If these new recruits are winners and competitors, I can only hope they see this as a collective challenge and take this program to the next level during their time at UD.

shocka43 · #**153** 03-25-2017, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by 312to937

UD has one NCAA tourney win (outside of UD Arena) in the last three years. So we are supposed to be satisfied with that being the best of times? George Mason had a Final Four run not that long ago. And Kent State made the Elite 8.

Tell Xavier or Butler (or Gonzaga) that non-P5 schools can't be successful. Tell them that one Sweet 16 appearance every 30 years is enough. Why can't UD mirror those programs? Consistent Top 20 twenty teams and numerous sweet 16 (or better) NCAA appearances. Both of those programs have done it with multiple coaches.

No...we should always expect the best, but need to understand reality. Can you say you aren't satisfied with AM's run and if that trend continues that as being a pretty **** godo benchmark of where our program should be?

You can't put George Mason in the same breath as X or Butler. GM's anomaly F4 run was much more a strike of lightning than anything. They haven't really done anything outside of that and to think they will replicate that anytime soon isn't realistic.

X...they were a mid major and hit the iron while the fire was hot. Multiple coaching changes and a ton of success. UD should be modeling what X did to obtain that success.

Gonzaga is an outlier. As stated....UD's resources on the west coast have a high probability of producing the same results. They are in a garbage conference that gives them a really good chance of doing what they do and getting NCAA invites. Yes....they are good and I am not taking anything away from them...but UD/VCU etc...would do much of the same out west.

If UD makes the NCAA's almost every year...advances in most of them and pops of a S16 or E8 run every few years...most would be pretty happy and content with the success....

The key is getting to the NCAA...not what the end result it. Much of the tourney is who you play, when you play, and where you play...anything can happen and it does. If you get to the NCAA 18 straight years like Gonzaga...you are going to get hot and advance from time to time...

Flyer69ers · #**154** 03-25-2017, 07:57 PM

Just read this on USA Today - not sure I like the defeatist sound of this :

"Much like his brother, Sean, at Arizona, Miller can now compete for national championships on an annual basis — something he couldn’t have done at Dayton, no matter how much talent he could recruit there in the Atlantic 10, or how experienced a group of veteran players could be in the postseason.

Dayton’s brass understands that, too."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...iana/99620312/

Smitty10 · #**155** 03-25-2017, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by 312to937

Bingo on point #1.

And disappointing because Archie left a pretty big three year hole on the recruiting side between the outgoing seniors and the incoming freshman.

If these new recruits are winners and competitors, I can only hope they see this as a collective challenge and take this program to the next level during their time at UD.

As I said previously, you and I both would not make that commitment without knowing who's going to be coaching you. And these guys were recruited by a lot of different coaches and the coach is the most important reason for choosing a program. The chances that Dayton brings in someone from outside that fits these player's criteria are slim. Remember, if they don't make the decision to go somewhere else, they will have to sit out a year in the future if they have buyer's remorse on such a blind leap of faith.

That's why my 2nd point is there.

Jeff · #**156** 03-25-2017, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Fans need to be realistic too...

What is the ceiling at UD?

What is the expectation, year after year?

We should have high expectations. Look at Gonzaga & X. They made a transition. We can too. To me, not having high expectations is the equivalent of telling your kid it's OK to get C's.

If anything, this will always be the life we live if we continue to live by the "A10 is the right conference for UD" mantra.

lhsgolf19 · #**157** 03-25-2017, 08:01 PM

David Jablonski
✔
@DavidPJablonski

Neil Sullivan said he was confident they made Archie Miller an offer that would have put him in top 10 in nation. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/sala...ketball/coach/ …

We Need to get out of the A-10 as quickly as possible

C-time · #**158** 03-25-2017, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Flyer69ers

Just read this on USA Today - not sure I like the defeatist sound of this :

"Much like his brother, Sean, at Arizona, Miller can now compete for national championships on an annual basis — something he couldn’t have done at Dayton, no matter how much talent he could recruit there in the Atlantic 10, or how experienced a group of veteran players could be in the postseason.

Dayton’s brass understands that, too."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...iana/99620312/

The truth hurts sometimes, but that doesn't make it feel any better.

BRob2Perryman3 · #**159** 03-25-2017, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by lhsgolf19

David Jablonski
✔
@DavidPJablonski

Neil Sullivan said he was confident they made Archie Miller an offer that would have put him in top 10 in nation. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/sala...ketball/coach/ …

We Need to get out of the A-10 as quickly as possible

100% agree

Smitty10 · #**160** 03-25-2017, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by C-time

The truth hurts sometimes, but that doesn't make it feel any better.

I don't find that as some big revelation. It doesn't say that he couldn't compete for a national championship, just that he couldn't do it on annual basis. That's really what my expectations were, get that right group of seniors and go on a roll. Hopefully, that happening means the program is going forward and improving to a point that getting to a better conference and competing on an annual basis might happen in the distant future.

BRob2Perryman3 · #**161** 03-25-2017, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by lhsgolf19

David Jablonski
✔
@DavidPJablonski

Neil Sullivan said he was confident they made Archie Miller an offer that would have put him in top 10 in nation. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/sala...ketball/coach/ …

We Need to get out of the A-10 as quickly as possible

100% agree

Smitty10 · #**162** 03-25-2017, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3

100% agree

I went and looked at our A10 opponent boards. Most get it. VCU, SJ's RI, GW etc... realize that losing Archie Miller is not good for the conference or themselves.

However our two newest ones don't in general. Davidson and GMU seem to take delight in the fact that it might send us downhill for awhile and that they might get nearer to the top due to attrition. One on GMU said "I'd rather be the best team in a crappy conference than the bottom of a great one." If I wanted to go through the trouble of becoming a member of their board I would've asked "Why didn't you stay in the Colonial then?"

shocka43 · #**163** 03-25-2017, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff

We should have high expectations. Look at Gonzaga & X. They made a transition. We can too. To me, not having high expectations is the equivalent of telling your kid it's OK to get C's.

If anything, this will always be the life we live if we continue to live by the "A10 is the right conference for UD" mantra.

Did Archie meet your expectations? If this trend continues would your expectations be met?

Everyone keeps dancing around it. Did or didn't Archie Miller meet the expectations of the fans and the university? I would say he did. If another coach walked in tomorrow and gives this program the same exact opportunities to succeed, and meet lofty expectations, there isn't a person on here that would b!tch or say expectations are too low.

Smitty10 · #**164** 03-25-2017, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by shocka43

Did Archie meet your expectations? If this trend continues would your expectations be met?

Everyone keeps dancing around it. Did or didn't Archie Miller meet the expectations of the fans and the university? I would say he did. If another coach walked in tomorrow and gives this program the same exact opportunities to succeed, and meet lofty expectations, there isn't a person on here that would b!tch or say expectations are too low.

Yes. He certainly gave me everything I could expect and exceeded it. He built the brand up to where we finally can look back to the early 90s and realize how far we came and that we survived.

But depending on the coaching move that's made, I'm not sure the administration has met my expectations. I want consistency like Xavier has had. I want there to be long term plans. I want continuity when one coach leaves to reap the rewards of his success. I don't want to have to go back to square one for a few years. Because when that keeps happening, you might just roll snake eyes with another O'Brien.

This is why I'm hoping that his successor was being groomed by Archie himself and is ready to hit the ground running.

FlyerGuyer · #**165** 03-25-2017, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Flyer69ers

"Much like his brother, Sean, at Arizona, Miller can now compete for national championships on an annual basis

Except that Sean Miller has not sniffed a national championship in 8 years at Arizona.

shocka43 · #**166** 03-25-2017, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

But depending on the coaching move that's made, I'm not sure the administration has met my expectations. I want consistency like Xavier has had. I want there to be long term plans. I want continuity when one coach leaves to reap the rewards of his success. I don't want to have to go back to square one for a few years. Because when that keeps happening, you might just roll snake eyes with another O'Brien.

I think you have an administration that can and will meet expectations. These guys are different...and in a good way. Not taking anything away from TW/DC/etc...but I think there is a different vibe now.

tirebiter · #**167** 03-25-2017, 10:31 PM

Next man up.

Smitty10 · #**168** 03-25-2017, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer

Except that Sean Miller has not sniffed a national championship in 8 years at Arizona.

3 elite eights, 2 sweet 16s on top of that and 6 ncaa tournament appearances all happening after his initial transition season(everyone should get a pass on their transition season) to me is competing for an NCAA championship. That doesn't necessarily mean getting to the championship but he's certainly not been that far from it in reality. Arizona is not really a top blue blood of college basketball. It certainly takes a back seat in it's own conference to UCLA(who btw hasn't sniffed a championship either under your criteria).

If he continues to put his team in the tournament as one of the top 3 seeds, I like his chances of breaking through with a championship or two. They ain't easy to get to and they ain't easy to win.

Sea Bass · #**169** 03-25-2017, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer

Except that Sean Miller has not sniffed a national championship in 8 years at Arizona.

which means he'd be out at IU

longtimefan · #**170** 03-25-2017, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by lhsgolf19

David Jablonski
✔
@DavidPJablonski

Neil Sullivan said he was confident they made Archie Miller an offer that would have put him in top 10 in nation. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/sala...ketball/coach/ …

We Need to get out of the A-10 as quickly as possible

And yet Sitdowndigger still thinks it's all about the money, and not the opportunity to get better recruits in order to compete at the highest level.

SLUFLYER · #**171** 03-25-2017, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer

Except that Sean Miller has not sniffed a national championship in 8 years at Arizona.

No, but he's certainly increasing his chances by being at Arizona.

Look, making final fours is really tough and winning a national championship is even tougher and requires some luck too.

I just read a tweet that Bill Self is 2-7 in Elite 8 games and 0-7 when Kansas has been a 1 seed. And Bill Self is talked about as one of the top 5 coaches in the business.

46 Chambers Alumni · #**172** 03-26-2017, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3

100% agree

As far as getting out of the A10, watch out what you wish for. Ask UC about getting out of their league. They have ended up much worse league wise. They, like UD, have to battle to do as well as they do. Many in Cincy are not happy, and they just won 30 games. A10 is much better than American, and we aren't going to be in a football league.

Good luck to Archie. He was great for UD. IU is one of the few places that would be considered a step up. Next year will not be easy no matter who the coach is, but hopefully with the foundation Archie started, UD can continue to have success consistently like Gonzaga and Wichita State, and X.

FlyingArrow · #**173** 03-26-2017, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Don

Yes, I agree we have upgraded each of the last three times we hired a new coach. BUT....what was the result? Our team improved but never to the level most of us aspire to and hope for. AM came the closest by far, but except for the E8 season, the others all ended in disappointment, despite averaging 25 wins/season.

If you were disappointed, adjust your expectations. Of course we'd all like to win a national championship every year, but I think 3 trips to the NCAA tournament and 1 Sweet 16 every 4 years is about what we should expect. We got more than that from AM... 4 trips and an Elite 8. If you were disappointed, your expectations are too high.

Let's hope the next coach provides the same "disappointment".

Avid Flyer · #**174** 03-26-2017, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow

If you were disappointed, adjust your expectations. Of course we'd all like to win a national championship every year, but I think 3 trips to the NCAA tournament and 1 Sweet 16 every 4 years is about what we should expect. We got more than that from AM... 4 trips and an Elite 8. If you were disappointed, your expectations are too high.

Let's hope the next coach provides the same "disappointment".

And yours are too low. If Vcu an go mason did it so can we.

FlyingArrow · #**175** 03-26-2017, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer

And yours are too low. If Vcu an go mason did it so can we.

Sure we can. But expecting to do it is another thing.

Sitdowndigger · #**176** 03-26-2017, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

And yet Sitdowndigger still thinks it's all about the money, and not the opportunity to get better recruits in order to compete at the highest level.

The best way to spread Christmas cheer is to sing a song for all to hear-now get off my lawn! Lighten up Francis.

If Dayton had the means to make Archie a top 10 paid coach would he have left? Or if Indiana would have offered Archie what he's paid at UD would he be gone?

$$$$$$$$$$$ Time to move on.....

T-Bone 84 · #**177** 03-26-2017, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER

No, but he's certainly increasing his chances by being at Arizona.

Look, making final fours is really tough and winning a national championship is even tougher and requires some luck too.

I just read a tweet that Bill Self is 2-7 in Elite 8 games and 0-7 when Kansas has been a 1 seed. And Bill Self is talked about as one of the top 5 coaches in the business.

And yet, if Bill Self had done that at IU, he might be on the hot seat for only having a 2-7 record in those games.

That's one of the things that's most troubling to me about Archie taking the IU gig. If he "only" does for them what he did for us, he won't be retained at the end of this contract. If that were to happen, he'd really be no better off 7 years from now than he is right now, having 5 years of P5 glitz & glamour and a year or two of "what next", followed by landing at a place that's not as good as the one you left years before.

I know. "You can't be afraid of success." I get it. But there's also such a thing as unrealistic expectations. I hope Archie isn't jumping into a situation where he'll never be able to meet their expectations (unless he's the second coming of Wooden & Knight, combined), and in the process we've lost a coach who got us to the next level, and could have taken us farther. Time will tell.
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UDBrian · #**178** 03-26-2017, 08:34 AM

Many people strive to be a king if only for a day or even a few minutes. Archie was a king at Dayton. I doubt that four national championships at Indiana would bring him close to the love and respect he had here. But, everyone chases what is most important to themselves

jack72 · #**179** 03-26-2017, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by UDBrian

Many people strive to be a king if only for a day or even a few minutes. Archie was a king at Dayton. I doubt that four national championships at Indiana would bring him close to the love and respect he had here. But, everyone chases what is most important to themselves

Having lived in Indiana for 30 years, and attended many IU games, I can tell you that one national championship will get Archie Crowned super king. That state is crazy about their basketball and IU on a whole different level. I grew up in Ohio, so I can only compare it to how many Ohioans feel about OSU football. Indiana has Purdue, ND, Butler, etc, and they all have small pockets of fans, but the majority are IU fans. Football is secondary, basketball is #1 in that state and IU basketball is king.

We have lived in NC for the past 4 years. It is a big basketball state, but not even close to Indiana.

San Diego Flyer · #**180** 03-26-2017, 09:58 AM

Miller was better than Gregory. Gregory was better than Purnell. Anyone was better than the guy he replaced.

I'm good with what Archie did here. The pressure is on Sullivan to maintain the trend. That is my expectation.

AQUDXU · #**181** 03-26-2017, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by jack72

Having lived in Indiana for 30 years, and attended many IU games, I can tell you that one national championship will get Archie Crowned super king. That state is crazy about their basketball and IU on a whole different level. I grew up in Ohio, so I can only compare it to how many Ohioans feel about OSU football. Indiana has Purdue, ND, Butler, etc, and they all have small pockets of fans, but the majority are IU fans. Football is secondary, basketball is #1 in that state and IU basketball is king.

We have lived in NC for the past 4 years. It is a big basketball state, but not even close to Indiana.

In 49 states it's just basketball.

This is Indiana.

CT Flyer · #**182** 03-26-2017, 11:11 AM

I think what a lot of people forget is that most (if not all) D1 coaches are ego-maniacs (varying levels I understand, but ego-maniacs none-the-less) that think they can and WILL win wherever they go. Archie is not sitting and thinking I might be setting myself up for failure if I don't win a championship at IU and maybe I should have stayed at Dayton. To the contrary he is probably saying something along the lines of now I am at a place where I can finally win a national championship and I can't wait to do it. And all he needs to do is win one, not four, and he'll be king at IU for a long time.

Windy City Flyer · #**183** 03-26-2017, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

Yes. He certainly gave me everything I could expect and exceeded it. He built the brand up to where we finally can look back to the early 90s and realize how far we came and that we survived.

But depending on the coaching move that's made, I'm not sure the administration has met my expectations. I want consistency like Xavier has had. I want there to be long term plans. I want continuity when one coach leaves to reap the rewards of his success. I don't want to have to go back to square one for a few years. Because when that keeps happening, you might just roll snake eyes with another O'Brien.

This is why I'm hoping that his successor was being groomed by Archie himself and is ready to hit the ground running.

As for Archie, it took a top program to pry him away. Like it or not IU is a great program in a great conference for basketball. This was a difficult year for him, the death of a player (RIP Big Steve) and 4 seniors graduating of which 3 were his originals recruits. Plus he faced a rebuilding effort even with some great recruits coming into the program. His brother waited and so did Archie. From what I can tell he turned down NC St, Florida, and Illinois. I have friends who went ti KY, XU, ND, IU, IA. I kept telling them that Arch is different he'll stay but when IU job opened I knew it was done. I knew if offered the job he was gone. The one thing UD lacks that IU has is chance every week to play against some of the best teams and coaches in the game. Arch is a competitor. To be the best you have to coach with and against the best. He's going to go to work day 1 and attack with the same tenacity that he did with our Flyers. Our program is better now than ever. We will hire another great coach. I believe that coach is from within and if I had to put money on it, Tom Ostrom will be our next coach. We have Arch to thank for getting UD basketball to where we right now - a great basketball school with one of the best followings in all of college sports!

shocka43 · #**184** 03-26-2017, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer

And yours are too low. If Vcu an go mason did it so can we.

Nothing says that we can't go...

George Mason went...and they also have done a single thing since then. Is that what we want? One and done run deep in the tournament.

VCU...solid and continual showing. More likely what UD can and should do.

With that said...it isn't that UD shouldn't expect that from time to time. But people are losing focus on what actually gets you the opportunities to get there and that is continual and repeated NCAA tournament appearances.

If your goals are set on repeated NCAA tournament appearances, your time till come for a deep run in the tournament. Just like UD did with the E8. That wasn't an expectation that year, a tournament appearance was and things worked out.

Success in the NCAA tournament is dependent on getting there. UD didn't do squat for an extended period of time because they didn't even make the dance. Now that UD can and should expect to be in the dance more frequently than not, we as fans can also expect to make a run from time to time. Does that mean S16 and E8 every year? Hell no. Many of the big boys that expect to get there every year get knocked off.

Realistic expectations are needed. Like I said before, if expectations weren't met under Archie's tenure, than the expectations aren't in line with reality.

FlyerinChicago · #**185** 03-26-2017, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Windy City Flyer

As for Archie, it took a top program to pry him away. Like it or not IU is a great program in a great conference for basketball. This was a difficult year for him, the death of a player (RIP Big Steve) and 4 seniors graduating of which 3 were his originals recruits. Plus he faced a rebuilding effort even with some great recruits coming into the program. His brother waited and so did Archie. From what I can tell he turned down NC St, Florida, and Illinois. I have friends who went ti KY, XU, ND, IU, IA. I kept telling them that Arch is different he'll stay but when IU job opened I knew it was done. I knew if offered the job he was gone. The one thing UD lacks that IU has is chance every week to play against some of the best teams and coaches in the game. Arch is a competitor. To be the best you have to coach with and against the best. He's going to go to work day 1 and attack with the same tenacity that he did with our Flyers. Our program is better now than ever. We will hire another great coach. I believe that coach is from within and if I had to put money on it, Tom Ostrom will be our next coach. We have Arch to thank for getting UD basketball to where we right now - a great basketball school with one of the best followings in all of college sports!

I was as vocal as anyone in my belief that Archie would stay, but I also new that there was maybe 2-3 jobs he likely wouldn't turn down. Indiana opening scared me a bit. I'm sickened he has left, not so much that he actually did, but the timing of it. If he were to have left next year at this time I believe the program would have hummed along and all five recruits would have likely stayed as they would know how special it is to play at UD and they would be settled in nicely. It's the timing of leaving. We really only have two oustanding players in Williams and Cunningham and possible third in Kostas, the rest are fillers at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see 75% of the recruits get out of their LOI, and I doubt the European kid signs now.

This move just killed any momentum we had in the program. I think were starting over again. This program seems to have a curse that hits us every time we finally have "arrived". I'm not pleased that we don't have a guy in waiting to take over either like X always seems to have. Ostrom is a fine recruiter and assistant, but he's never coached Division 1 basketball and isn't going to be the second coming of Archie either. My hope was Archie would get these kids in the program and then maybe move on in a year or two if the perfect job came along as the guy is still only 38. I believe Archie saw the writing on the wall the last few years and selection Sunday only confirmed his beliefs. The NCAA pitting the "mid-majors" to play each other, and the power 5 filling the rest of the tournament. He saw that the only way to truly compete at the highest level and recruit the best players was to move on. The NCAA is killing college basketball, and he chose self preservation.

Now if all the recruits stay, and the next coaching hire is solid...were good. But that's asking a lot at this point.

FlyerGuyer · #**186** 03-26-2017, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

3 elite eights, 2 sweet 16s on top of that and 6 ncaa tournament appearances all happening after his initial transition season(everyone should get a pass on their transition season) to me is competing for an NCAA championship.

Then you essentially have to say that Xavier has been competing for a national championship since Sean left as well. 4 Sweet Sixteens, an Elite Eight, a 2 seed last year, and 7 NCAA tournament appearances since Sean left. I really don't see where Sean Miller has done much more at Arizona than he could have done at Xavier.

I'm seeing a lot of "I like his chances" and "he just needs a little luck." Well, maybe, but I like a lot of people's chances. A lot of people just need a little luck. Chris Mack just needs a little luck. It's hard to make the Final Four and win a national championship.

UDDoug · #**187** 03-26-2017, 01:35 PM

He hasn't done more. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a better chance to compete for a national title. He clearly does although that gap is narrower with XU now in the BE.

UD can want out of the A10 all they want. But they have nowhere that wants them that gives them a chance to compete for a national title every year like an IU.
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FlyerGuyer · #**188** 03-26-2017, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

He hasn't done more. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a better chance to compete for a national title.
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I like his chances. He just needs a little luck.

longtimefan · #**189** 03-26-2017, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

He hasn't done more. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a better chance to compete for a national title. He clearly does although that gap is narrower with XU now in the BE.

UD can want out of the A10 all they want. But they have nowhere that wants them that gives them a chance to compete for a national title every year like an IU.
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But he actually has done more. Three Elite Eights to one, and X's E8 came from the Big East, which has certainly helped their recruiting.

NJFlyr71 · #**190** 03-26-2017, 09:07 PM

Yesterday when I first heard the news my post would have been:

F#@$%#@#^$#%$#@*&%%gtdhlkulkn$%^*#$%%%&K

Then I would of said I am very disappointed ......

Then I could state that this is a sad state of affairs for UD.

Then I would have been speechless ..............

NJFlyr71 · #**191** 03-26-2017, 09:35 PM

I realize that Archie saw what I see. He has the chance to move to another storied program in a large conference to compete against some of the best teams and the best coach's.

He was a competitive guy ... correction he IS a competitive guy.

The opportunity presented itself. Had it not I doubt he would have gone anywhere ... at least not just to jump to another program. He could be choosie.

Discussion was made that if tOSU opened up then he would have gone ... not so sure that he would have .... as far as BB IU is geared toward BB. OSU not so much. But it doesn't matter about tOSU anymore does it?

Ask anyone in any field they are involved with, if an offer comes to you in a situation that for you was only a thought in the back of your mind, not really thinking that it would happen just maybe it could but .... likely, unlikely. Not because you didn't think you couldn't do it just that timing and other events take up those random chances that place you and that offer on different tracks. Yet by the randomness of timing and place an offer is made from that place you had not given much thought to, yet here it was, placed front and center. What would you do?

There really isn't a wrong or right answer here. Some chose to stay, some chose to jump. As Robert Frost said either way you could be taking the road less traveled.

FlyerFanatic08 · #**192** 03-26-2017, 09:41 PM

i'm not upset...little sad...but not surprised. most should have known this was coming. i've seen and heard some say well this is just the way our program is. its a stepping stone gig (actually thats been said for numerous years) my question is:

what does it take to get a mark few-like coach? i don't know few's financials at gonzaga...but are they offering him a lot more than we offered archie in terms of money? certainly facilities/support/conference probably all better than what the zags deal with.

the only thing i can come up with is its just the person. the zags are fortunate to have mark. simple as that. an admin can't force a coach to stick around...tell him you sign up you have to gut it out..etc. it just comes down to mark..for whatever reason. no admin can read a potential coaches mind and know they're gonna stick around regardless of the money/prestige etc that can be offered by some of those premiere jobs.

if you asked mark, "why have you stuck around" he'd probably say a lot of what most coaches say and i'm sure archie had said one time or another over the last 6 years. is it coaches speak? sure...but some of it is truth...but i believe theres just another layer there that coaches don't disclose, probably personal..maybe family oriented.

i'm not saying if archie stuck around we're gonzaga like in the next 2-3 yrs. lets say archie stuck around for 12-13 years...making consistent tourney appearances and sweet 16 runs...making dayton a national brand so to speak. maybe he does scoop up 1 or 2 of those AA. archie is certainly young enough to hang around. he's got a long coaching career ahead of him..lots of years left.

i think ultimately...the admin...even though they won't admit it publicly, have to view the program as a stepping stone. that we're going to have a constant turnover of coaches every 6-8 years. thats the realistic way to look at it. maybe if we're fortunate enough...we'll luck out and another mark few will patrol our sidelines.

for now, i'm just hoping that years from now we can look back and say archie jump started this program and every hire from here on out is a slam dunk. maybe archie left such a great foundation that we can just continue the string of success.

NJFlyr71 · #**193** 03-26-2017, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08

i'm not upset...little sad...but not surprised. most should have known this was coming. i've seen and heard some say well this is just the way our program is. its a stepping stone gig (actually thats been said for numerous years) my question is:

what does it take to get a mark few-like coach? i don't know few's financials at gonzaga...but are they offering him a lot more than we offered archie in terms of money? certainly facilities/support/conference probably all better than what the zags deal with.

the only thing i can come up with is its just the person. the zags are fortunate to have mark. simple as that. an admin can't force a coach to stick around...tell him you sign up you have to gut it out..etc. it just comes down to mark..for whatever reason. no admin can read a potential coaches mind and know they're gonna stick around regardless of the money/prestige etc that can be offered by some of those premiere jobs.

if you asked mark, "why have you stuck around" he'd probably say a lot of what most coaches say and i'm sure archie had said one time or another over the last 6 years. is it coaches speak? sure...but some of it is truth...but i believe theres just another layer there that coaches don't disclose, probably personal..maybe family oriented.

i'm not saying if archie stuck around we're gonzaga like in the next 2-3 yrs. lets say archie stuck around for 12-13 years...making consistent tourney appearances and sweet 16 runs...making dayton a national brand so to speak. maybe he does scoop up 1 or 2 of those AA. archie is certainly young enough to hang around. he's got a long coaching career ahead of him..lots of years left.

i think ultimately...the admin...even though they won't admit it publicly, have to view the program as a stepping stone. that we're going to have a constant turnover of coaches every 6-8 years. thats the realistic way to look at it. maybe if we're fortunate enough...we'll luck out and another mark few will patrol our sidelines.

for now, i'm just hoping that years from now we can look back and say archie jump started this program and every hire from here on out is a slam dunk. maybe archie left such a great foundation that we can just continue the string of success.

I think the 'Mark Few's' are about 1 in 600 (not that many D1 programs but I count D2 in there).

Just as a program is lucky to find a replacement coach that provides success, finding one that provides success and stays ..... man you're battling the odds against you there.

At P5 schools and I mean conferences here, most coaches do not make lateral moves on their own. You stay as long as you are welcome then move on if you are asked to leave. Non P5 conferences typically are the stepping stone programs that feed the higher level programs. The Sun to the A10 to the P5's. It is what it is.

The trouble is schools like the A10 may be forced to go with a unproven HC. They experiment with the talent. They may suffer if that talent turns very good and leaves for the higher levels. Then they are forced to run the experiment once again.

If the experiment turns sour, they suffer in their program AND forced to experiment once again. It impacts the program twice 1) poor HC talent, 2) search for new HC talent and a reset to players, style and knowledge.

Recovery may happen but takes some years or recovery may never quite happen at all. Just mediocrity for years waiting for lighting in that bottle.

FlyerFanatic08 · #**194** 03-26-2017, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71

The trouble is schools like the A10 may be forced to go with a unproven HC. They experiment with the talent. They may suffer if that talent turns very good and leaves for the higher levels. Then they are forced to run the experiment once again.
.

agree with your post...

the part i quoted is what i'm getting at though. sure A-10 schools have to go the unproven HC route...but why dayton? we have the facilities/support/ etc....all top notch and better than everyone in the conference.

why can't we be the zags of the A-10...keep a quality, proven HC that just dominates the league. if some other programs want to make make it interesting from time to time...great...but what is it dayton specifically is missing? (btw thats why the whole big east slant to me is silly, nothing wrong with just dominating your own conference)

thats where i am coming back to its just the person...we're almost going to have to just luck out and hope a mark few crosses our path.

sure, it could be the money, though i thought i read somewhere the admin did offer a pretty substantial offer to archie.

is it the competitive nature of coaches, wanting to prove themselves in a P5 conference? could be...but is mark few not competitive? i'm sure hes just as competitive as the rest of them.

idk...oh well. we've been here before...certainly won't be the last.

FLYER5 · #**195** 03-27-2017, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by UDTradition

With all due respect...............I really, really, really suggest that we not post messages like this. We all are unhappy but we don't want to encourage young (impressionable) guys to jump ship. This is a public forum.

These type of posts can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Dude, really!?! This has got to be one of the most ignorant statements ever on a sports message board. You think your opinion matters to these kids? No wait let's back up...do you think they read this board?
All the people saying Archie is a traitor or a liar need to do some soul-searching. IU is that tier right below the elitest of the elite. Perfect move on his part. Quit laying blame as if the guy never worked his azz off any day he was coach here.

And anyone that doesn't think his assistants aren't 1st-rate candidates need some brain-searching. The dude is the best coach UD ever had that I've seen, and I've seen Mick.
His assistants don't need UD. They're in his coaching tree now. They'll peel off just as Archie did if Sullivan doesn't show immediate strong interest in one of them as coach.
Those who said IU was an also-ran, I'll be serving crow every year they win the B1G with Archie as coach. Watch as they're inserted as a favorite to win in his 1st year. IU was always a sleeping giant and when Cream was let go it made perfect sense that a firey-tempered coach like Knight would be hired to replace Crean. IU, you knocked it out of the park!

Smitty10 · #**196** 03-27-2017, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by FLYER5

Watch as they're inserted as a favorite to win in his 1st year. IU was always a sleeping giant and when Cream was let go it made perfect sense that a firey-tempered coach like Knight would be hired to replace Crean. IU, you knocked it out of the park!

I actually agree 100 percent with your post except the comparison of AM to Bobby Knight. I have to ask, did AM ever have a technical foul called on him in his 6 years here. Fiery? Yeah, in his own way. Like Knight??? No, no, not even close. But he might be as effective.

FLYER5 · #**197** 03-27-2017, 12:58 AM

Fiery-tempered coach like Knight. Read my lips

Smitty10 · #**198** 03-27-2017, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by FLYER5

Fiery coach like Knight. Read my lips

No, not even close. Actually to AM's benefit, not even close. Let's just say he's got a little more self-control. But Knight was much, much more entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

T-Bone 84 · #**199** 03-27-2017, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Smitty10

No, not even close. Actually to AM's benefit, not even close. Let's just say he's got a little more self-control. But Knight was much, much more entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LsvwmgJ7I

Yeah...I can't see Archie doing that. At least, at no time soon.
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FLYER5 · #**200** 03-27-2017, 09:21 AM

I said he was a fiery-tempered coach like Knight, and all the sudden I've cloned him in smitty's eyes. I just leave arguments like this alone most of the time but I just want him to keep his ears open for comparisons such as what I said. Don't tune out because they're coming.