|
View Poll Results: You Make the Call...over and back? or not?
|
Since the ball was tipped by VCU before going into the backcourt, it's NOT 'over and back'.
|
|
33 |
82.50% |
Since UD touched it after VCU, it's their possession and 'over and back' is the correct call
|
|
7 |
17.50% |
|
11-27-2017, 10:38 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
you Make the Call - Over and Back
UD leads VCU 68-64 with 3:33 left in the 2nd half. As John Crosby crosses midcourt against a very effective 1-3-1 trap vs VCU, he splits 2 defenders and fires off a cross court pass to a nervous and jittery Jordan Davis. A split second before JDavis receives the ball, it is clearly tipped by a VCU defender, causing it to glance off JDavis' shoulder and bounce into the backcourt. As lead referee Clayton Valentine signals to the crowd that the ball was tipped, Crosby hustles to the ball and, without defensive pressure, picks up the ball and - once again - brings the ball up court with Clayton Valentine restarting the 10-second count.
But wait! From across the court, center ref Edwin DNutz blows his whistle loudly, runs to midcourt, and while throwing his arm back and forth over the midcourt line, signals 'over-and-back', awarding the ball to VCU. Meanwhile, lead official Rollo DeMayo checks out the VCU cheerleaders with disgust.
Dayton coach Anthony Grant explodes off the bench screaming in disbelief and chews out ref DNutz that not only isn't it his call, but it's the wrong call since VCU touched the ball first. Acknowledging that VCU touched the ball in the front court, ref DNutz calmly tells Coach Grant that VCU touching the ball doesn't matter since they never controlled it and, therefore, the ball was still in UD's possession at the time they knocked it into the backcourt....thus, by definition, it's over-and-back.
As referees Edwin DNutz, Clayton Valentine and Rollo DeMayo huddle at midcourt to discuss the situation, you have 30 seconds to Make-the-Call!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-27-2017, 11:46 AM
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,895
Thanks: 1,341
Thanked 1,302 Times in 674 Posts
|
|
I thought the rule was if the ball was tipped by the defense, it's not over and back, even if it hit a UD player after. He did not have control of the ball so no over and back.
|
11-27-2017, 12:11 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
38 'views' and 6 votes tells me the know-it-alls don't know sh*t. Royal refs don't have time to look up anything. Read...vote...and take your punishment like a man!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-27-2017, 12:26 PM
|
Captain
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 350
Thanks: 9
Thanked 352 Times in 120 Posts
|
|
New rule this year as I was listening to Jay Bilas explain it yesterday. If the VCU player touches it and deflects it off the offensive player it is a live ball for anyone to possess without violation, even in the backcourt.
Posted via Mobile Device
|
11-27-2017, 12:32 PM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,890
Thanks: 828
Thanked 876 Times in 478 Posts
|
|
I don't think it can be over and back if there was never possession in the front court. Possession does not mean "touch". No over and back here in my view. But I'm a fan, not a ref - I would not be surprised if this is another trick question from ref Rollo!
But should the 10 second count start over?
|
11-27-2017, 12:46 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by tirebiter
I don't think it can be over and back if there was never possession in the front court.
|
Crosby was in the front court when he split the defenders and made the pass...
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-27-2017, 05:28 PM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,041
Thanks: 8,803
Thanked 8,557 Times in 3,702 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
Clayton Valentine !
|
Clayton Valentine? My attorney will be in touch about my defamation of character lawsuit. (My character, not his, before any smart butt asks)
|
Mad Props to ClaytonFlyerFan For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
11-27-2017, 07:16 PM
|
|
Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,890
Thanks: 828
Thanked 876 Times in 478 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
Crosby was in the front court when he split the defenders and made the pass...
|
The wording is: "...as he crosses midcourt..." That indicates to me he is still transitioning as he makes the pass that is tipped. He is in the process of entering the front court, but it's unclear whether he actually was in possession in the front court after he finished crossing midcourt.
Can't be over and back if he was never technically "over".
|
11-27-2017, 10:57 PM
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: PHL
Posts: 5,740
Thanks: 2,603
Thanked 2,337 Times in 1,410 Posts
|
|
Dayton ball. No analysis needed, just makes sense.
|
11-28-2017, 12:01 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: It's hot and there is fire
Posts: 9,353
Thanks: 5,412
Thanked 9,809 Times in 4,072 Posts
|
|
More like Rollo Carstensen.
|
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to shocka43 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
11-28-2017, 07:07 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by tirebiter
The wording is: "...as he crosses midcourt..." That indicates to me he is still transitioning as he makes the pass that is tipped. He is in the process of entering the front court, but it's unclear whether he actually was in possession in the front court after he finished crossing midcourt.
Can't be over and back if he was never technically "over".
|
"As he crosses midcourt..." is followed by "...he splits 2 defenders..." implying that he actually took a few more steps...
And if you know anything about a 1-3-1 press, it only works after the ball handler has entered the frontcourt so that the midcourt line can act as a defender.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-28-2017, 08:54 AM
|
Lieutenant Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 985
Thanks: 779
Thanked 700 Times in 275 Posts
|
|
UD ball, no violation because the ball was tipped by VCU.
|
11-28-2017, 10:16 AM
|
Brigadier General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,025
Thanks: 1,012
Thanked 1,887 Times in 644 Posts
|
|
Not surprised to see that DNutz made yet another bad call in a big game.....
Looking forward to starting another season in stripes this Friday night!
|
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to dnutz77 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
11-28-2017, 12:01 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by dnutz77
Not surprised to see that DNutz made yet another bad call in a big game.....
Looking forward to starting another season in stripes this Friday night!
|
Not surprised to read about Rollo DeMayo... . His political aspirations are long gone.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-28-2017, 12:17 PM
|
|
Major General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Miami Twp.
Posts: 3,342
Thanks: 268
Thanked 2,234 Times in 1,038 Posts
|
|
Fun note: while in Charleston with my Clemson-fan wife, she heard the crowd yell "Good call, Teddy!" at Valentine during a UD game... but asked me why they were yelling "Good call, Titty"?
End of story. I still can't think about it and not laugh. Valentine is now and forever known as "Titty" to me.
|
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to priceg75 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
11-29-2017, 07:23 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Voting ends at 10:40.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-29-2017, 10:46 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Correct call: Over-and-Back. Why? Because a UD player caused the ball to pass behind the midcourt line and into the backcourt.
The Rule changed this year to - in simple terms that even John R could understand - no longer rely on ' possession' but to now rely on 'team control'. Touching the ball constitutes 'team control' and is why if a ball glances off a 'red' player and goes OB, the inbound goes to 'white'.
There are exceptions to this rule (jump ball, inbound passes...) but none apply here.
FWIW, I blew this call last week in a varsity scrimmage and was corrected between quarters. I went home to re-read my manuals and ref magazines and coincidentally as well as to my disbelief, the situation was described on the last page of my Referee magazine...so yes, the King was wrong...or was I? I mean, it was only a scrimmage...
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
11-29-2017, 01:47 PM
|
|
Captain
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 252
Thanks: 1,085
Thanked 71 Times in 39 Posts
|
|
I wish that I had seen that scrimmage.
|
11-29-2017, 03:31 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
*scrimmages are free...
Originally Posted by Fairborn Fan
I wish that I had seen that scrimmage.
|
In all royal seriousness, I was worth the price of admission*!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-30-2017, 09:08 AM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
|
|
Let's change it up. UD crosses half court with full possession. The next pass is in to Cunningham in the post where it is intercepted by VCU. The VCU post player who stole the ball see a VCU player streaking ahead for the layup. The full-court pass is tipped by Cunningham on UD's side of half court, causing it to be underthrown, and allowing Davis to regain possession--at the opposite foul line (in UD's back court).
It sounds like this would be ruled a turnover? And if so, making this one of the 3 worst rule changes in basketball history?
|
11-30-2017, 09:14 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Gazoo
Let's change it up. UD crosses half court with full possession. The next pass is in to Cunningham in the post where it is intercepted by VCU. The VCU post player who stole the ball see a VCU player streaking ahead for the layup. The full-court pass is tipped by Cunningham on UD's side of half court, causing it to be underthrown, and allowing Davis to regain possession--at the opposite foul line (in UD's back court).
It sounds like this would be ruled a turnover? And if so, making this one of the 3 worst rule changes in basketball history?
|
In your example possession changed from UD to VCU to UD...in the original example UD had possession the entire time, but team control changed when it was tipped by VCU and then tipped again by UD.
Personally, I don't have to like the new interpretation...I just have to enforce it.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
11-30-2017, 09:21 AM
|
|
General
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
In your example possession changed from UD to VCU to UD...in the original example UD had possession the entire time, but team control changed when it was tipped by VCU and then tipped again by UD.
Personally, I don't have to like the new interpretation...I just have to enforce it.
|
Not following. Crutcher throws to the post, stolen by VCU, touched by Cunningham (front court), and recovered by Davis (back court). So UD -> VCU -> UD(2). So if UD has "possession" in the front court (Cunningham's tip), the ball crosses the half court line, and then is picked up by Davis in the back court, isn't that over and back?
|
11-30-2017, 09:28 AM
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,000
Thanks: 3,691
Thanked 5,152 Times in 2,713 Posts
|
|
I got.it right! Putting a star on my report card.
|
11-30-2017, 09:44 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Gazoo
Not following. Crutcher (UD possession) throws to the post, stolen by VCU (VCU possession) , touched by Cunningham (UD team control) (front court), and recovered by Davis (UD possession) (back court). So UD -> VCU -> UD(2). So if UD has "possession" in the front court (Cunningham's tip), the ball crosses the half court line, and then is picked up by Davis in the back court, isn't that over and back?
|
You're confusing 'possession' and 'team control'.
In your example, possession changed from UD to VCU to UD. With each possession change, everything starts over.
In my example, possession never changed but team control went from UD to VCU to UD. Possession doesn't change when team control changes...but team control changes when possession changes.
UGH!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Last edited by rollo; 11-30-2017 at 09:47 AM..
|
11-30-2017, 09:49 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by cj
I got.it right! Putting a star on my report card.
|
Are you putting the star before or after the 'does not play well with others' comment? Or are you putting it over and covering the 'not'?
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|