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  #1  
Old 07-26-2009, 10:31 PM
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Exclamation UD to the FINAL FOUR

In order for UD to get to the final four anytime soon they need 3 things.

1. Center 6-10 to 7ft about 250-275lbs

2. Great Point Guard play

3. Deep Bench aka role players

We have 2/3 point guard and bench. We need a freaking BIG MAN kinda like a Greg Odon or that kansas player Cole A.

Last edited by 1 Flyer Fan; 07-26-2009 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 1 Flyer Fan View Post
In order for UD to get to the final four anytime soon they need 3 things.

1. Center 6-10 to 7ft about 250-275lbs

2. Great Point Guard play

3. Deep Bench aka role players

We have 2/3 point guard and bench. We need a freaking BIG MAN kinda like a Greg Odon or that kansas player Cole A.

How big is MK who is ranked the number 22 center in the 2008 class by ESPN???:frog:
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:55 AM
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Yes, all we need is a player like Greg Oden and we'd be pretty good. While we're at it, if only we had a player like LeBron James, we could win it all.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:34 AM
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You do not need a dominant big man to win an national championship. You don't even need one in the NBA (see Chicago bulls dynasty).
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:49 AM
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It takes more than that...

To get to the Final Four a team has to be very good....it has to be playing its best basketball in March....and, just as important, it has to be lucky.

Luck is an absolute essential. It means not having your star point guard twist an ankle that prevents him from playing for a week or so;.....it can mean not having your very best shooter and go-to guy not picking up his third foul at the 10 minute mark of the first half;....it can mean having an opponent's point guard or best player twisting his ankle in the first few minutes of the game....an opponent that matches up very well against you and can beat you six out of ten times,....it can mean not coming up against an opponent that shoots 25% from three-point range all season long but goes 12 for 15 against you while making all its foul shots;....it can mean being seeded in a region where your regional final game is in a venue that is like a home game for you, or vice versa

None of those things matters all that much during the regular season when a loss is tolerable. But, in the Dance it's one-loss-and-your-out,.....and that loss can easily be against a team you'd beat 19 times out fo 20. Luck matters.
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:04 PM
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Talking

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
To get to the Final Four a team has to be very good....it has to be playing its best basketball in March....and, just as important, it has to be lucky.

Luck is an absolute essential. It means not having your star point guard twist an ankle that prevents him from playing for a week or so;.....it can mean not having your very best shooter and go-to guy not picking up his third foul at the 10 minute mark of the first half;....it can mean having an opponent's point guard or best player twisting his ankle in the first few minutes of the game....an opponent that matches up very well against you and can beat you six out of ten times,....it can mean not coming up against an opponent that shoots 25% from three-point range all season long but goes 12 for 15 against you while making all its foul shots;....it can mean being seeded in a region where your regional final game is in a venue that is like a home game for you, or vice versa

None of those things matters all that much during the regular season when a loss is tolerable. But, in the Dance it's one-loss-and-your-out,.....and that loss can easily be against a team you'd beat 19 times out fo 20. Luck matters.
Luck, chance, the breaks, prayer, blown calls etc., all factor into a games outcome, but the cream always rises! In college sports the "rising" process might take years. So if our Flyers make the dance next March and get knocked out early, don't despair there's always next year!
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:45 PM
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First off let's worry about consistently making it to the big dance and then maybe the sweet 16 before we start throwing out final four.


second, you don't need 7 footers anymore in college basketball. Yes they are nice to have but the game is shifting to a guard focus. iread a pretty cool article the article day, of course I cant find it now, but is was talking about the evaporation of the big man in both the NCAA and NBA. In the NCAA teams are focusing on guards now and up pace styles. In the NBA teams are growing weary of the big man due to the high costs and short careerss (see yao ming) also the back to the basket score is almost obsolete. They do provide defense and rebounding which is huge but overall we are seeing a decling trend
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:10 PM
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1) I agree 100% on the point guard, a great point guard makes everyone better. I think this is more important than any other position. Look at the difference in UNC last year when their point guard returned

2) Need to play great defense

3) Limit easy baskets by the other team

4) Need at least one player, preferably three who can create their own shot

I personally like the discussion on what it would take to get to the final four.

Were we close to that level last year? No

Can we get there? Don't see why we couldn't
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:25 PM
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Got to have a dream .... but we've got to come up with something better in our half court offensive sets. Matchups aside, I'd say 90% of the teams after the sweet 16 are capable defensive squads. Kansas exposed the Flyers to that end quite effectively.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:29 PM
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Our goals...

I agree completely that UD can achieve its program goals and never make the Final Four;....that was my main point when describing the luck factor. Sometimes it works for you and sometimes not.

We have an objective of earning a reputation as a consistently top-tier program at the national level. All agree that means consistent NCAA appearances and doing well once we get there. Reasonable people can disagee about whether that means the Dance 4 times per decade, 6 times, 8 times;....and whether doing well means getting to the Sweet 16 or the Elite 8.

It depends on many things including the combination of appearances and how well we do. Getting to the Dance 4 times in a decade doesn't sound bad if one of those times gets us to the Elite 8 and another to the Final 4. But 4 appearances doesn't sound so hot if twice we are eliminated in the first round and we never get past the second.

Consistency is the key. Whatever the combination is we all know it when we see it. Gonzaga and Xavier are two peers that have "made it" on the national scene. There is no reason why the Dayton name cannot be added to that short list. We're on the way....last year was an important step.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:40 PM
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all i am saying is for UD to make it to the final four in the future we need a BIG MAN in the middle to go against the top dogs that have big men. There are not alot of big teams who dont have centers. WE cant just run over everybody. But if we get match ups against teams in the first second sweet 16 elite 8 that dont have big centers we are good to go.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
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You don't need 7 ft 275. However, you do need something more than a frail 6'8'' or 6'9'' or a one dimensional widebody.

You have to be able to compliment half way decent defense with someone who has the will and ability to score, or possess the threat of scoring.

One dimensional post players will not help us. Anyone knowing defensive fundamentals should see this and the ones that don't gave KH a free pass all last year.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
You don't need 7 ft 275. However, you do need something more than a frail 6'8'' or 6'9'' or a one dimensional widebody.

You have to be able to compliment half way decent defense with someone who has the will and ability to score, or possess the threat of scoring.

One dimensional post players will not help us. Anyone knowing defensive fundamentals should see this and the ones that don't gave KH a free pass all last year.
I agree that you need an offensive threat in the post to take the pressure off the perimeter players (forces defenses to double down thus opening the outside) and we were lacking in that capacity last year. However, with MK in the mix and an improved DS, I believe we will the ability to score inside this year.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:40 PM
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Big guys.

I'm inclined to agree that an effective center is an essential,....unless you are a great outside-shooting team perhaps. A guy like ND's Luke Harangody (SP?) is an amazing asset. I've seen him play at Conn twice; and he's a delight to watch.

He never seems to be breaking his butt;....but wherever the ball is, there's Luke. UConn's Thabeet was not a match for Harangody in the three or four games thay played,...not even close,...although UConn may have won all four.

A really dominant big man changes the way the opponent plays. Unless a team has really significant compensating abilty, weakness in the paint hurts. I am sure that most will agree that UD has been no better than "adequate" in the paint in recent years.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:06 PM
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On the offensive end we have been less than "adequate"-hopefully that will change this year.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:09 PM
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Not that I think we are a final 4 team, but I like our chances in the tournament with 4 senior guards - at least 3 who play lock-down defense. I think that kind of guard play is more important than a big, goofy Center.

I really think we have a pretty good formula this year to make a run in the tournament. 4 senior guards, some big men who can shoot, crazy athletic ability, a lot of depth, and some hungry boys who just got a taste last year.

Although we have a lot of talent coming in next year, we're going to be pretty young - especially in the guard positions. It will be exciting in 2010-11, but I don't think that is a good formula for a run in the tourney.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
I agree that you need an offensive threat in the post to take the pressure off the perimeter players (forces defenses to double down thus opening the outside) and we were lacking in that capacity last year. However, with MK in the mix and an improved DS, I believe we will the ability to score inside this year.
I do agree as there is promise in newcomers, but that always comes with the unknowns. That's the great thing about being a fan. But, as a upper level mid-major, long term focus has to be the key with big guys. We have seen long term focus begin to pay dividends with our "athletes" and "tweeners", but with the promise of Kav, he is the one that brings the actual post player size. JB has length, but length doesn't always payoff against a wide frame post. True big men that have a complete game are hard to find. Like I said before, we don't need a 7 footer to win big games, just a solid defender (that is capable of guarding true bigs), that brings an offensive threat.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:04 PM
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Following UACFlyer: Getting good at the right time is big.
Getting to peak when it counts most is an art.

BG at least brought a team to the tournament with gas in the tank.
I liked that.

I like threads with the words "UD" and "Final Four" in them too.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:26 AM
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You don't need a dominant big man to win.

You need to be able to make an outside shot. If you jack up 3s and miss, not only does the defense pack in making rebounds more difficult, long shots take long rebounds, virtually eliminating your big man.

Make the 3s and the defense spreads opening up the inside game for any big man.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
You don't need a dominant big man to win.

You need to be able to make an outside shot. If you jack up 3s and miss, not only does the defense pack in making rebounds more difficult, long shots take long rebounds, virtually eliminating your big man.

Make the 3s and the defense spreads opening up the inside game for any big man.
This is all true .... however KH had a bad habit of leaving seemingly everything he put up about a half a foot short last year whether we were shooting well from outside or not. We've got to have a guy that will capitalize on those opportunities on a consistent basis ... think Ashman, Waleskowski, Green, Finn. If any one of those guys got the ball within 10 feet you were pretty confident they would score. I'd really like to think that Kav is the answer, but unlike some I'm holding off until I see what he actually brings night to night on a D1 court. I'm optimistic about him, but I've been that way about some Flyers in the past that never materialized.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
You don't need a dominant big man to win.

You need to be able to make an outside shot. If you jack up 3s and miss, not only does the defense pack in making rebounds more difficult, long shots take long rebounds, virtually eliminating your big man.

Make the 3s and the defense spreads opening up the inside game for any big man.
No one said "dominant", but you need the option of a big man to score just as equal as perimeter players to hit open shots.

As discussed time and time again last year. Poor shooting causes the D to collapse on the big. However, a poor offensive big doesn't need to be doubled from the perimeter, only the weakside, this means your perimeter players aren't able to shake their defender as well, casing their cuts to the hoop in this type of offense to be ineffective.

Last year other teams could afford to collapse on KH because we weren't a great shooting team. But when we were shooting well, it was easy for teams to not collapse because KH wasn't a threat.

Ask yourself this. In theory...Do you have a better chance of scoring from 5 feet or 20 feet? And by scoring I mean making the shot or going to the line for freebies. Even with a double, your post HAS to be able to either go up strong and make shots with more than one defender hanging on him, draw a foul, or be smart enough to realize the double and kick it out to a shooter that can actually make a shot consistently. Either way, if one of these two positions can't get it done, then it throws everyone out of whack.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
You don't need a dominant big man to win.

You need to be able to make an outside shot. If you jack up 3s and miss, not only does the defense pack in making rebounds more difficult, long shots take long rebounds, virtually eliminating your big man.

Make the 3s and the defense spreads opening up the inside game for any big man.
Problem is it's tougher to get good looks from the outside when there is no post threat. Defenders do not need to leave their man to help out as much. I am not saying it's impossible, just that I would rather take an outside shot without a defender in my face.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:52 AM
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What it takes...

All this discussion can, I think, be boiled down to the following: Really good teams don't have a significant weakness. Offensively they are strong inside and out; they can draw fouls and make foul shots; they rebound well and they defend well. Not rocket science.

If a team has a major soft spot offensively or defensively other good teams will capitalize on that.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:22 PM
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a decent big man really opens up the offense. A defense focuses on a big man thus creating more opportunities for the outside jumper which we now have developed
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by udstevied_D87 View Post
more opportunities for the outside jumper which we now have developed
Did you watch the same team I did last year? Far from a stellar outside shooting team. We aren't even in the top 100 in the country in team 3 pt percentage. You can't afford to have a non-producing big man when you aren't in the top 100 in the country from 3.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Did you watch the same team I did last year? Far from a stellar outside shooting team. We aren't even in the top 100 in the country in team 3 pt percentage. You can't afford to have a non-producing big man when you aren't in the top 100 in the country from 3.
I probably should have said developing. With luke's confidence and mj's improving jumper and with the new recruits who can shoot the three... it would be a huge step in the right direction to have a solid big man
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:36 PM
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MJ's shot wavered down the stretch ... I hope he gets his swagger back. CJ found out how long and tough a collegiant season is ... we need him too sustain his early season production. Luke came on at the end especially with shot selection and we'll need more of the same from him but his individual defense, spacing on defense, and lack of footspeed hurt his PT. London doesn't have an outside shot ... but were really not asking for offense from him. Rob is a volume shooter who bailed us out quite a few times but is not consistent. CW will hopefully get the body control issues down to a minimum this next year but he really should be playing somewhere near the lane to begin with. Paul is still a confidence question mark. Perry was playing well at the end, but isn't exactly an offensive juggernaut. So as far as us suddenly finding our outside shot and knocking them down, I remain pessimistic. PW, Perry, MJ, CJ, and Luke have to step it up.

The good news is ... we still play the best defense in our league if not the country, we can still get out and run, we are just as athletic if not more so this year, and we are a year older and have 2 consecutive years of solid postseason play under the belt.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:03 PM
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Our 3pt field goal percentage certainly improved during the year. We shot .328 for the season, which ranked 11th in the A-10. In conference play we shot .387, which ranked 4th!
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