Our evil twin brother

[301Lowes]

Misery loves company:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golde...78.html?page=1

Check out the comments section. Swap out Buzz Williams for BG and UD for Marquette and Vander Blue for CW. Sounds similar...

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by 301Lowes Misery loves company: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golde...78.html?page=1 Check out the comments section. Swap out Buzz Williams for BG and UD for Marquette and Vander Blue for CW. Sounds similar...

True. However they play in THE TOUGHEST conference in the country. If we went 9 and 9 in Big East..... wow.

[SHQCKEY]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 True. However they play in THE TOUGHEST conference in the country. If we went 9 and 9 in Big East..... wow.

Exactly. It's apples and oranges. They had a better record in a far superior league. Also, Vander Blue is a freshman I believe. This comparison is not even close.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by SHQCKEY Exactly. It's apples and oranges. They had a better record in a far superior league. Also, Vander Blue is a freshman I believe. This comparison is not even close.

It's not really apples and oranges. If we were in the Big East we would be getting better recruits, would be expected to compete, and our fans would be ticked off if we were 9-9.

[ud69]

Marquette non-con SOS 168
Dayton non-con SOS 51

[Avid Flyer]

lets not forget BG's has had success against Big East BCS schools. His philosophy seems adapted more to those type of teams and makes sense since that is where he came from.

He has not mastered the A-10 but could be a top coach against BCS schools. His record against them supports that as does his record against the A-10 support his short comings.

Would be interesting to see what happens if he should get another NIT invite. Could he run the tables again against BCS schools. Right now not sure we'd get the invite.

[FlyerFanatic21]

Originally Posted by ud69 Marquette non-con SOS 168 Dayton non-con SOS 51

Now that's a selective presentation. While we probably had the best non-conf win between us (Mason) and even had a better non-conf record (12-3 vs 9-4), their 4 L's came at Vandy and neutral courts vs Duke, Gonzaga and Wisconsin. All tough opponents and none by more than 8pts. There's also:

Marq Conf-SOS: 10 (9-9 record)
UD Conf-SOS: 105 (7-9 record)

Marq SOS: 31
UD SOS: 74

Besides, what does non-conf SOS even prove in this comparison? To me, it's just that we have to try and schedule tougher opponents because we play in a league that isn't as good. It just sounds like a pointless stat in this discussion and just makes me feel worse than we did so well against that "tough" OOC slate and then stunk it up in the A10.

[dnutz77]

Ummmmm BG is like 14-16 against BCS schools. Let's not pretend like he's got the BCS figured out, ladies and gentlemen.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ud69]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic21 Now that's a selective presentation. While we probably had the best non-conf win between us (Mason) and even had a better non-conf record (12-3 vs 9-4), their 4 L's came at Vandy and Pitt and neutral courts vs Duke and Wisconsin. All tough opponents and none by more than 8pts. There's also: Marq Conf-SOS: 10 (9-9 record) UD Conf-SOS: 105 (7-9 record) Marq SOS: 31 UD SOS: 74 Besides, what does non-conf SOS even prove in this comparison? To me, it's just that we have to try and schedule tougher opponents because we play in a league that isn't as good. It just sounds like a pointless stat in this discussion and just makes me feel worse than we did so well against that "tough" OOC slate and then stunk it up in the A10.

I can tell you exactly what it says - That, at least in Marquette's situation, their soft non-con was fools gold.

[FlyerFanatic21]

Originally Posted by ud69 I can tell you exactly what it says - That, at least in Marquette's situation, their soft non-con was fools gold.

Still good enough to be putting themselves in line for a tournament bid. If the 51st SOS = 3 losses, I would hope being around 151st would be 1 at most for us. And if we're not going to improve in conference, then maybe we need to start thinking about losing as few games OOC as possible by easing up the schedule or starting mimicking the way they do it by playing a few big boys anywhere to keep the ol' RPI steady and taking on SW North Dakota State A&M the rest of the time to rack up wins.

[ud69]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic21 Still good enough to be putting themselves in line for a tournament bid. If the 51st SOS = 3 losses, I would hope being around 151st would be 1 at most for us. And if we're not going to improve in conference, then maybe we need to start thinking about losing as few games OOC as possible by easing up the schedule or starting mimicking the way they do it by playing a few big boys anywhere to keep the ol' RPI steady and taking on SW North Dakota State A&M the rest of the time to rack up wins.

Nope, wouldn't do it. The non-con schedule is not our problem. It's the lack of conference wins and lots of conference losses that is the killer.

[FlyerFanatic21]

Originally Posted by ud69 Nope, wouldn't do it. The non-con schedule is not our problem. It's the lack of conference wins and lots of conference losses that is the killer.

Absolutely agree, especially because we quite often do not defeat the upper teams in the league anymore. But it goes back to why non-conf SOS was even brought up then.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic21 Now that's a selective presentation. While we probably had the best non-conf win between us (Mason) and even had a better non-conf record (12-3 vs 9-4), their 4 L's came at Vandy and neutral courts vs Duke, Gonzaga and Wisconsin. All tough opponents and none by more than 8pts. There's also: Marq Conf-SOS: 10 (9-9 record) UD Conf-SOS: 105 (7-9 record) Marq SOS: 31 UD SOS: 74 Besides, what does non-conf SOS even prove in this comparison? To me, it's just that we have to try and schedule tougher opponents because we play in a league that isn't as good. It just sounds like a pointless stat in this discussion and just makes me feel worse than we did so well against that "tough" OOC slate and then stunk it up in the A10.

Amen! Thank-you for posting this.

Originally Posted by ud69 I can tell you exactly what it says - That, at least in Marquette's situation, their soft non-con was fools gold.

Come on, A LOT of the BCS schools play weak non-con schedules because their con schedules are so brutal. There was no fool's gold here. Marquette knew that their great non-con record pretty much meant nothing. I guarantee you that virtually no Marquette fans were blasting trumpets at their 9-4 non-con record.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer lets not forget BG's has had success against Big East BCS schools. His philosophy seems adapted more to those type of teams and makes sense since that is where he came from. He has not mastered the A-10 but could be a top coach against BCS schools. His record against them supports that as does his record against the A-10 support his short comings. Would be interesting to see what happens if he should get another NIT invite. Could he run the tables again against BCS schools. Right now not sure we'd get the invite.

no he couldn't. This team has lost ALL energy, all focus and is bereft of STUFF that goes into playing together, forget about well.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by longtimefan It's not really apples and oranges. If we were in the Big East we would be getting better recruits, would be expected to compete, and our fans would be ticked off if we were 9-9.

Ask Seton Hall and DePaul about that...and they're both in basketball hotbeds.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

A big difference would be that most of Marquette's fanbase can remember what it's like to play in a Final Four, while most of ours cannot.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 A big difference would be that most of Marquette's fanbase can remember what it's like to play in a Final Four, while most of ours cannot.

I can and was there, it was great

[Sea Bass]

expectations are always high and quite often not met. IIRC, some have called this season a disaster and it was not hyperbole. I remember a period where the FLyers won 17 games ... combined in three seasons.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass expectations are always high and quite often not met. IIRC, some have called this season a disaster and it was not hyperbole. I remember a period where the FLyers won 17 games ... combined in three seasons.

I just got the shakes thinking about that - 4-26, 6-21, and 7-20. And did we have a message board when Donoher went 13-15, 13-18, and 12-17 in three consecutive years? That would have been brutal!

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ClevelandFlyer05]

Originally Posted by UD62 I can and was there, it was great

I envy you. I'll probably never get to see it.

[John R]

Originally Posted by UD62 I can and was there, it was great

Same here and will never for get it.

[THirt]

Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic21 Now that's a selective presentation. While we probably had the best non-conf win between us (Mason) and even had a better non-conf record (12-3 vs 9-4), their 4 L's came at Vandy and neutral courts vs Duke, Gonzaga and Wisconsin. All tough opponents and none by more than 8pts. There's also: Marq Conf-SOS: 10 (9-9 record) UD Conf-SOS: 105 (7-9 record) Marq SOS: 31 UD SOS: 74 Besides, what does non-conf SOS even prove in this comparison? To me, it's just that we have to try and schedule tougher opponents because we play in a league that isn't as good. It just sounds like a pointless stat in this discussion and just makes me feel worse than we did so well against that "tough" OOC slate and then stunk it up in the A10.

The shifting arguments always make me laugh. So Marquette played 4 tough games in their noncon slate, and LOST THEM ALL. They beat Prairie View A&M, Bucknell, Green Bay, South Dakota, Milwaukee, Longwood, Texas A&M Corpus Christie, Centenary, and finished off with Mississipi Valley State. Bucknell is a respectable 24-8, and Milwaukee is a decent 19-12.

Here's what the noncon SOS proves: That Marquette is the one playing a bunch of cupcakes. UD played its share, to be sure, but as has been stated, our nonconference slate is not the problem. Our schedule has been decent, and certainly is not what has kept us out of the dance. In fact, the only year we won an NCAA game recently, we had the worst noncon schedule in recent memory.

For what it's worth, BG is 14-15 against BCS schools if my math was correct, but also 10-4 in the last three years (if you want to cherry pick stats).

The point of this thread is certainly valid though. I think it's reasonable to compare UD to any of the schools near the bubble. We were at least near the bubble until we lost the last three.

[longtimefan]

But I thought our non-conference schedule was "pathetic."

[rollo]

Our non-con schedule was sooo tough that it wore us down to the point we couldn't compete in the A10. I propose we step back, quit playing team like Fl. A&M, Savannah State and Western Carolina - who just push us around like Big Ten schools - and start playing some easy teams like Wittenberg and Oakwood...well, maybe not Wittenberg...but Oakwood for sure!

Then, when the A10 schedule begins we'll have a strong record, padded stats, a false sense of security and, most of all, be ready to beat St. Joe's....by 8!

[THirt]

Originally Posted by rollo Our non-con schedule was sooo tough that it wore us down to the point we couldn't compete in the A10. I propose we step back, quit playing team like Fl. A&M, Savannah State and Western Carolina - who just push us around like Big Ten schools - and start playing some easy teams like Wittenberg and Oakwood...well, maybe not Wittenberg...but Oakwood for sure! Then, when the A10 schedule begins we'll have a strong record, padded stats, a false sense of security and, most of all, be ready to beat St. Joe's....by 8!

Well done. You ignore any argument backed by facts, logic, and statistics, and instead distort the argument, and make an emotional, exaggerated post that doesn't actually acknowledge anyone else's statements. Our noncon schedule is not the problem. It is better than a lot of major conference schools' are. Two of the three teams you listed were part of the lame event that we agreed to in order to play UC.

Would you not agree that Marquette's noncon slate looks pathetic compared to UD's? That's kind of the point of this specific thread.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by THirt Well done. You ignore any argument backed by facts, logic, and statistics, and instead distort the argument, and make an emotional, exaggerated post that doesn't actually acknowledge anyone else's statements.

That's pretty much what he does.

[Flyers1010]

This thread is not about non-con SOS, it's about 2 teams that poo poo down their leg in conference play and both teams fans are furious. Somewhere, this thread got off track by someone cooking the numbers to make us feel better that we play such a difficult OOC.

And how can you really get mad at Rollo? Every time I see that Avatar, I laugh.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by THirt Well done. You ignore any argument backed by facts, logic, and statistics.

Here's some fact, logic and statistics...
Fact: 8-8....7-9
More facts: bottom half of the A10....record the last 10 games x 5......Senior Night x 2.....don't get me started on budget, attendance and facilities.

Logic: When you're a mid-major like UD, at the very least the non-conference schedule should prepare you for the rigors of the conference schedule. With 8-8 and 7-9 staring you in the face, are you trying to tell me that our non-conferece schedule has prepared us for anything?

Statistics: 300+ in shooting % for all D1 teams....'nuf said.

You can scream off the highest mountain that our non-conference schedule is 2nd to none...that's subjective. But you can't in any way, shape or form demonstrate that it serves its purpose....execpt to say that it puts 13k butts in the Arena and millions in UD's Athletics account.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer lets not forget BG's has had success against Big East BCS schools. His philosophy seems adapted more to those type of teams and makes sense since that is where he came from.

That's great....considering we play 3 of them a year in the OOC....less than 10% of our games.

Let me see....have continued success against the schools we 10% of the time or success against the schools 90% of the time?

This season we have a 66% success rate against BCS schools and a 61% success rate against non-BCS schools. I suggest we worry about what we don't do well instead of what we do well.

[John R]

Originally Posted by longtimefan That's pretty much what he does.

Yes thats what he does. Just likes to bait people and tries to get them banned.