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  #201  
Old 02-26-2018, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
They would need to get it from the FBI. Would the FBI release a piece of evidence on someone they are investigating? I’m not sure they would even verbally tell AZ they have it. Tough spot for AZ.
I get it...but even w/out the tape, where else wouldn't he (Miller) already have been confronted by his boss or someone in leadership capacity and asked the question. If he says "no" and is found to be lying, all the more proof he's beneath pond scum.
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  #202  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
It seems to me that if there is real proof that SM even discussed paying players to come to AZ he's in trouble even if there is no proof it ever happened.

What school can tolerate having its head coach proved to have been even engaged in a conversation re payments to HS players?
Exactly, it doesn't matter if the payment ever happened. Just like if you hire a hit man to kill someone and it's an undercover agent, the murder doesn't have to happen for you to be guilty.
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  #203  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:19 AM
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Here's a thought I haven't seen elsewhere. . . and it's nothing more than a thought. . .

What if:

1. The UD admin got wind that AM was sniffing around with the intent to pay players, the way his brother had taught him?

-or-

2. AM was given the absolute "NO" for paying players from the admin, but Miller always thought he could get eventually get the admin over the top on this topic.

Would either of these explain why he said one day that he had no plans to ever leave UD, then suddenly changed his mind about what was possible here?

This is NOT an accusation, it is pure idle speculation. DO NOT take this as any kind of inside knowledge or accusation. Just a thought.
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  #204  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
I get it...but even w/out the tape, where else wouldn't he (Miller) already have been confronted by his boss or someone in leadership capacity and asked the question. If he says "no" and is found to be lying, all the more proof he's beneath pond scum.
Don't forget this angle: what if "his boss" asks SM about it, and SM fesses-up to the boss, and the boss says "D@mn! Just keep your mouth shut about this, and make sure it doesn't happen again."? Or words to that effect? At that point, "his boss" is below the guy who's below pond scum.
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  #205  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I assume the NCAA “cleared to play” is the NCAA telling the school that they have no investigation open on a player because they only open investigations when they are presented evidence/a reason to do so. It’s how all the players on Dawkins paper note released by Yahoo Sports also got clearance to play.
Yep, and the NCAA will not start any investigation until the FBI says that it is done with theirs, and gives them the go ahead.
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  #206  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Here's a thought I haven't seen elsewhere. . . and it's nothing more than a thought. . .

What if:

1. The UD admin got wind that AM was sniffing around with the intent to pay players, the way his brother had taught him?

-or-

2. AM was given the absolute "NO" for paying players from the admin, but Miller always thought he could get eventually get the admin over the top on this topic.

Would either of these explain why he said one day that he had no plans to ever leave UD, then suddenly changed his mind about what was possible here?

This is NOT an accusation, it is pure idle speculation. DO NOT take this as any kind of inside knowledge or accusation. Just a thought.
Am I missing something here, where in all of this has it been suggested that any payments to players have come directly or indirectly from any university?? I can't imagine any HC at any school having that conversation with any AD or president.
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  #207  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
It seems to me that if there is real proof that SM even discussed paying players to come to AZ he's in trouble even if there is no proof it ever happened.

What school can tolerate having its head coach proved to have been even engaged in a conversation re payments to HS players?
I’d say UK to start...
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  #208  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Am I missing something here, where in all of this has it been suggested that any payments to players have come directly or indirectly from any university?? I can't imagine any HC at any school having that conversation with any AD or president.
Sean Miller was discussing the weather on that wire tap?

The cash can be arranged.

And again: I'm doing nothing except idly speculating for entertainment.
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  #209  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
@NicoleAuerbach
I talked to a few mid-major head coaches today who have worked on Power Five staffs before.

To summarize their reactions to today’s news: “Burn it all down. Level the playing field.”
Ok, to that end, here is a suggestion that would be a death sentence to the NCAA and would absolutely level the playing field:

1. At the end of each season, divide up all of the net profits (TV revenue) equally among all Div I teams.

2. Eliminate recruiting entirely. Hold 5-7 geographic "high school combines" around the country each year. After the last combine, hold a national draft day that includes every Div I school in the country. Draft order is based on your previous years' ending RPI. Draft who you want/need based on the number of scholarships you have available. The day after the draft, have one day that you can trade previous days' picks. After that, your roster is set and you are good to go. No walk-ons allowed. Player transfer rules stay the same as they are today. Boom! Level Playing Field. (All schools offer Discovery Arts and General Studies degrees, right?)
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  #210  
Old 02-26-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by N2663R View Post
Ok, to that end, here is a suggestion that would be a death sentence to the NCAA and would absolutely level the playing field:

1. At the end of each season, divide up all of the net profits (TV revenue) equally among all Div I teams.

2. Eliminate recruiting entirely. Hold 5-7 geographic "high school combines" around the country each year. After the last combine, hold a national draft day that includes every Div I school in the country. Draft order is based on your previous years' ending RPI. Draft who you want/need based on the number of scholarships you have available. The day after the draft, have one day that you can trade previous days' picks. After that, your roster is set and you are good to go. No walk-ons allowed. Player transfer rules stay the same as they are today. Boom! Level Playing Field. (All schools offer Discovery Arts and General Studies degrees, right?)
Day drinking is more productive than I thought!
Wow Senator N226R, I think you just let out some classified information by accident. Time to 'bleach' your computers.
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  #211  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:10 PM
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"IF" Sean Miller is found to have done what they are saying. Will he ever coach again in college basketball? After prison time or after a long suspension?
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  #212  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jpk4ud View Post
"IF" Sean Miller is found to have done what they are saying. Will he ever coach again in college basketball? After prison time or after a long suspension?
If the two smartest individuals with regard to college basketball are to be believed (Jay Bilas and Seth Greenberg), both say SM has coached his last college game, period...this was on college gameday Saturday morning.

Then again, they also said Ayton has played his last college game which, of course, he hasn't.
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  #213  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:25 PM
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Until I hear the wiretap with my own ears, Im making no judgment.
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  #214  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Until I hear the wiretap with my own ears, Im making no judgment.
We may have to wait until the trial to hear the wiretap. A judge is going to clamp down on leaks.
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  #215  
Old 02-26-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
If the two smartest individuals with regard to college basketball are to be believed (Jay Bilas and Seth Greenberg), both say SM has coached his last college game, period...this was on college gameday Saturday morning.

Then again, they also said Ayton has played his last college game which, of course, he hasn't.
Listened to J Bilas over the weekend. He said everyone knew/knows this has been going on for years. (Note he didn't seem to think it was a big deal that this may have been an unfair playing field ).

He also said we have to bring this issue of "amature" into the 21 century and 'pay these kids'. He equated them as just like regular students that have no restrictions to earn money while in school. I don't agree with how that would really solve the whole thing. I stated in a previous post that the elite players will still get 'additional money' from some place to go to some other place AND collect the stipend just like the schmuck who plays 2nd string right field (no offense intended here) in baseball.

Now some other things he stated I could agree with or slightly thought they made sense ... paying a player for their name (on a shirt) or likeness I can see, maybe establishing a fund that they can collect after college career is over.

I was astonished on how cavalier Mr Bilas thought this all to be .... (I believe he is or was a lawyer too, wasn't he? ).

His attitude: Everyone knew so what's the big deal here just change the rules to make it 'official' come on NCAA do the right thing!
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  #216  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
If the two smartest individuals with regard to college basketball are to be believed (Jay Bilas and Seth Greenberg), both say SM has coached his last college game, period...this was on college gameday Saturday morning.

Some Arizona fans think this is a hit piece or conspiracy directed at Arizona. I would not dismiss that out of hand because, let’s face it, media outlets get caught doing that kind of thing all the time.

But why ESPN? This isn’t like CNN trying to take down Trump or Fox News making up some crap about somebody. The strange thing is that just a few months ago, Jay Bilas, Seth Greenberg, Dick Vitale, etc. were vigorously defending Sean Miller personally. Bilas actually stated that Sean Miller is a “man of great honesty and integrity.”

They have all now done a 180, so whatever information ESPN has received has been convincing enough to them to publicly call out Sean Miller in very strong terms. ESPN has gone all-in on this story which, if found to be inaccurate, would be a huge blow to their credibility.
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  #217  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Listened to J Bilas over the weekend. He said everyone knew/knows this has been going on for years. (Note he didn't seem to think it was a big deal that this may have been an unfair playing field ).

He also said we have to bring this issue of "amature" into the 21 century and 'pay these kids'. He equated them as just like regular students that have no restrictions to earn money while in school. I don't agree with how that would really solve the whole thing. I stated in a previous post that the elite players will still get 'additional money' from some place to go to some other place AND collect the stipend just like the schmuck who plays 2nd string right field (no offense intended here) in baseball.

Now some other things he stated I could agree with or slightly thought they made sense ... paying a player for their name (on a shirt) or likeness I can see, maybe establishing a fund that they can collect after college career is over.

I was astonished on how cavalier Mr Bilas thought this all to be .... (I believe he is or was a lawyer too, wasn't he? ).

His attitude: Everyone knew so what's the big deal here just change the rules to make it 'official' come on NCAA do the right thing!
You can't sell anything with players names or likeness. It is an NCAA violation.
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  #218  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Listened to J Bilas over the weekend. He said everyone knew/knows this has been going on for years. (Note he didn't seem to think it was a big deal that this may have been an unfair playing field ).

He also said we have to bring this issue of "amature" into the 21 century and 'pay these kids'. He equated them as just like regular students that have no restrictions to earn money while in school. I don't agree with how that would really solve the whole thing. I stated in a previous post that the elite players will still get 'additional money' from some place to go to some other place AND collect the stipend just like the schmuck who plays 2nd string right field (no offense intended here) in baseball.

Now some other things he stated I could agree with or slightly thought they made sense ... paying a player for their name (on a shirt) or likeness I can see, maybe establishing a fund that they can collect after college career is over.

I was astonished on how cavalier Mr Bilas thought this all to be .... (I believe he is or was a lawyer too, wasn't he? ).

His attitude: Everyone knew so what's the big deal here just change the rules to make it 'official' come on NCAA do the right thing!
Clearly I'm missing something. Isn't getting a scholarship, worth anywhere from probably 40k to > 200k, essentially paying the player? I mean, it's not cash, but it certainly can be valuable. Now, I agree, there are some players who don't care about a scholarship, don't care about school, whatever. To that end, let them go straight to the G league or go play in Europe, get paid cash, endorsements, whatever. It will only have a mild impact on the game for the top schools.
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  #219  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:25 PM
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Question Question:

Originally Posted by jpk4ud View Post
You can't sell anything with players names or likeness. It is an NCAA violation.
Serious question: Can a player's picture be on a game program that is sold? Schedule posters?

Yes, UD gives such things away, but some schools sell them.

Chris Weber's claim that he should be paid for jerseys with #4 on them was bogus. Players before and after him wore #4. Yes, more jerseys sold while he was wearing that number, but it wasn't unique to him. I have no idea what extent UCLA went with O'Bannon attire or likenesses.
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  #220  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jpk4ud View Post
You can't sell anything with players names or likeness. It is an NCAA violation.
. . . until it ceases to be an NCAA violation because the NCAA changed their rules.

I would seriously like to have private conversation with Bilas to see how his brain (doesn't) work on this topic.

OK, so you pay the players. It's open season, the richest programs get the best players. But these guys aren't actually in "school". They're just wearing a jersey, and transfer when they get a better offer. Colleges will be running semi-pro athletic leagues. What has that got to do with college??

It's the same thing as having the Cleveland Cavs pay to have a chemistry department. What does that have to do with the Cavs?!
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  #221  
Old 02-26-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic View Post
Serious question: Can a player's picture be on a game program that is sold?
I'm thinking the answer is yes. Otherwise I wouldn't have a trove of game programs from the 70's and 80's that were purchased.
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  #222  
Old 02-26-2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlyerFanatic View Post
Serious question: Can a player's picture be on a game program that is sold? Schedule posters?
The UD Media Guide is available for $20 on game day, right inside the UD Arena doors. Current team member pictures on the cover and inside.
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  #223  
Old 02-26-2018, 02:13 PM
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Here's my latest "FTS" on Christian Dawkins, the agent behind all of this and how he got his start:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31939
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  #224  
Old 02-26-2018, 02:15 PM
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NCAA Bylaw 12.5.1.1(h): Any commercial items with names, likenesses or pictures of
multiple student-athletes…may be sold only at the member institution at which the
student-athletes are enrolled, the institution’s conference, institutionally controlled
(owned and operated) outlets or outlets controlled by the charitable, educational or
nonprofit organization….Items that include an individual student-athlete’s name, picture
or likeness (e.g., name on jersey, name or likeness on a bobblehead doll), other than
informational items (e.g., media guide, schedule cards, institutional publications), may
not be sold.
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  #225  
Old 02-26-2018, 10:14 PM
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...ncaa-violation

What??
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Here's a thought I haven't seen elsewhere. . . and it's nothing more than a thought. . .

What if:

1. The UD admin got wind that AM was sniffing around with the intent to pay players, the way his brother had taught him?

-or-

2. AM was given the absolute "NO" for paying players from the admin, but Miller always thought he could get eventually get the admin over the top on this topic.

Would either of these explain why he said one day that he had no plans to ever leave UD, then suddenly changed his mind about what was possible here?

This is NOT an accusation, it is pure idle speculation. DO NOT take this as any kind of inside knowledge or accusation. Just a thought.

I never heard Archie say his plans were never to leave UD. He said he was happy at UD and administration took good care of him. He did talk about building a long term program at UD, but he was always waiting for the right offer. It was not about the money. Sean may have discovered it was about the money and the players.

The administration talked to him early about taking the right next job. They realized he would leave as soon as he proved he was an excellent coach. Too many schools wanted him. That happened almost right away. I remember having the conversation about that year 2 of his tenure with an administration person.

That is why his contract had three schools in his escape clause.

The administration did not want him to leave and tried to counter the offer from IU.
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Old 02-27-2018, 07:39 AM
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ESPN reporting is starting to fall apart. They already had to correct a couple things in the report, one being the time of the alledged conversation between ASM rep Dawkins and Sean. The original reported date of the conversation was after Ayton committed. Now this.

https://247sports.com/college/arizon...nsel-115564960

20 years ago sports crossed over into entertainment and is no longer news reporting. Today’s sportscasters do not know how to properly source hard news before they release it. Yahoo Sports scoops everyone with the paper note/email of Dawkins expenditures/payouts. Did ESPN feel pressure to go with something they heard about Sean Miller and AZ to one-up Yahoo Sports? It’s looking more and more like they only have a singular source and have not heard the wiretapped conversation or even seen a transcript.

If this proves out to be fake news, how terrible for the Miller family. If it proves out to be true, then like Rollo said, let Rome burn.
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  #228  
Old 02-27-2018, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
ESPN reporting is starting to fall apart. They already had to correct a couple things in the report, one being the time of the alledged conversation between ASM rep Dawkins and Sean. The original reported date of the conversation was after Ayton committed. Now this.

https://247sports.com/college/arizon...nsel-115564960

20 years ago sports crossed over into entertainment and is no longer news reporting. Today’s sportscasters do not know how to properly source hard news before they release it. Yahoo Sports scoops everyone with the paper note/email of Dawkins expenditures/payouts. Did ESPN feel pressure to go with something they heard about Sean Miller and AZ to one-up Yahoo Sports? It’s looking more and more like they only have a singular source and have not heard the wiretapped conversation or even seen a transcript.

If this proves out to be fake news, how terrible for the Miller family. If it proves out to be true, then like Rollo said, let Rome burn.
Multiple media outlets reported this (timeline error)...ESPN to my knowledge has yet to own the error (shocker).

What they have reported, however, is that while rushing to clear Miles Bridges to play this weekend in light of this news, MSU claims he never took money from Andy Miller. But they did find that his family was treated to a meal from a different agent and Bridges "resolved" that matter by paying $40 to a charity. Huh? Regardless of ESPN's sloppy reporting...where there's smoke there's usually fire.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...ncaa-violation

Last edited by Radar; 02-27-2018 at 08:25 AM..
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  #229  
Old 02-27-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Multiple media outlets reported this (timeline error)...ESPN to my knowledge has yet to own the error (shocker).

What they have reported, however, is that while rushing to clear Miles Bridges to play this weekend in light of this news, MSU claims he never took money from Andy Miller. But they did find that his family was treated to a meal from a different agent and Bridges "resolved" that matter by paying $40 to a charity. Huh? Regardless of ESPN's sloppy reporting...where there's smoke there's usually fire.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...ncaa-violation
I believe I did see, perhaps it was on Twitter, where ESPN "owned" the mistake and released the correction that the alleged convo was in the Spring of 2016, not 2017.

Conversely, I am not a fan of journalism that takes the approach of just because there's smoke, there has to be fire in here somewhere so let's throw it all against the wall and see what sticks. It's only people's reputations and livelihoods. The latter is tough to rebuild if the former is destroyed. Now imagine that destruction came unjustly, undeservedly or falsely.

The late, great Skip Prosser said "Don't ever get a stain on your reputation. Once you do, it's tough to get off." I'd sure like to see how the classiest coach I have ever known would have navigated what the shark infested waters have become.
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  #230  
Old 02-27-2018, 09:01 AM
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With all the deniability and claims of "never this" and "never that", etc. it is important to remember 2 things:

1) You claim your innocence until it doesn't work anymore (example see R Pitino) and

2) (As I posted previously)

“Liars do not fear the truth if there are enough liars”

Agent Mulder X-Files

False reporting, jumping to guns as to who is innocent and who is not, the truth (or some recognizable part of the truth) will all come out once the FBI completes its investigation (complete with using testimony from people looking to save themselves as they spill the beans on others).

If the FBI (and I am sure they did) used wiretaps for the last 18 months or so of the investigation (ending in Oct 17 when it was first reported) they got some folks dead to rights on something.

I will bet there are some people involved that haven't said a word ... yet. This is due to the 2 factors listed above.

The NCAA will not be able to fully investigate until the FBI report is complete ... and then they will take about 2 years to complete their report so we may be talking 2021-2022 before NCAA violations/sanctions if any are imposed.

In the meantime, Mr Emmert, the esteemed President of the NCAA has started a 'committee' to review basketball. To show that the NCAA does not want to really uncover anything they didn't include football.

Does anyone think FB is exempt from the same kind of thing? If anything it may be worse not cleaner.

With a system that takes BILLIONS of dollars and HANDS out millions of dollars each year, and head coaches that GET millions of dollars each year the system will fight until dragged into either a legal challenge or is faced with ill-repute in the court of public opinion.

Until then we will hear alot of noise and denial.

Last edited by NJFlyr71; 02-27-2018 at 09:04 AM..
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  #231  
Old 02-27-2018, 09:22 AM
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After its investigation, if the FBI indicts some people and chooses to not indict others, maybe because the evidence leans toward guilt but with difficulty proving beyond a reasonable doubt, NCAA will not need to conduct its own "exhaustive investigation." It will have been done for them by an organization not looking to protect its own .....

FBI can just hand over its investigation and say, "it's your turn, do something about it."

Let Rome burn.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:40 AM
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Some details of the issues with ESPNs report

https://247sports.com/Article/Source...ller-115594868
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:55 AM
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Becky

The one major issue I have with the story of Sean Miller is that he seems to have been (so far) the only name being cast about for days with a vengeance since it was (maybe) tied to a 'wiretap'. I am sure there are others it just wasn't/hasn't been reported either erroneously or otherwise.

Fake news is all around us and unfortunately for the media as the "errors" (and I use that word kindly here) keep compounding, the public becomes less and less inclined to believe it or only believe what they already want to know.

So is he or isn't he (S Miller) in trouble? Eventually we will find out.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I never heard Archie say his plans were never to leave UD. He said he was happy at UD and administration took good care of him. He did talk about building a long term program at UD, but he was always waiting for the right offer. It was not about the money. Sean may have discovered it was about the money and the players.

The administration talked to him early about taking the right next job. They realized he would leave as soon as he proved he was an excellent coach. Too many schools wanted him. That happened almost right away. I remember having the conversation about that year 2 of his tenure with an administration person.

That is why his contract had three schools in his escape clause.

The administration did not want him to leave and tried to counter the offer from IU.
I think mostly everyone knew he would leave at some point, at least I did and I was OK with that. However I do believe he once said something like I'll stay at Dayton as long as the University wants me. And let's not be naive it is definitely about the money for these coaches, Archie included.
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  #235  
Old 02-27-2018, 11:46 AM
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Whether there was a timeline issue or not, are we going to overlook the fact that one of Arizona's assistants was charged in the initial round of criminal indictments here?

That fact alone makes it far more likely to me that Arizona as a program was involved in paying recruits.

We'll see how far it's going to burn, but some people's careers are going to burn, that's for sure. Rightly.
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  #236  
Old 02-27-2018, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Whether there was a timeline issue or not, are we going to overlook the fact that one of Arizona's assistants was charged in the initial round of criminal indictments here?

That fact alone makes it far more likely to me that Arizona as a program was involved in paying recruits.

Not to mention Allonzo Trier has been found ineligible. That whole program is just a cloud of hot mess. If this is what it takes to win, no thanks.

Sean Miller has millions of dollars so it’s difficult for me to feel too sorry for him. Even if Arizona cans him, he’ll be able to get some kind of job in the NBA or something within a few years.

And D. Ayton made a comment that it didn’t really matter where he went to college. These one-and-dones just want to go pro and make their millions for dribbling a ball. In a way, they make a mockery of the college game. In five years no one will care. Heck, some people are saying that even if Ayton took $100,000 (completely unproven at this point), he’s “worth” more than that so what’s the big deal?

Last edited by FlyerGuyer; 02-27-2018 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
ESPN reporting is starting to fall apart. They already had to correct a couple things in the report, one being the time of the alleged conversation between ASM rep Dawkins and Sean. The original reported date of the conversation was after Ayton committed.

It’s looking more and more like they only have a singular source and have not heard the wiretapped conversation or even seen a transcript.

If this proves out to be fake news, how terrible for the Miller family. If it proves out to be true, then like Rollo said, let Rome burn.
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
If I had not had that conversation I would deny it a lot more vehemently than that. I wouldn't say I was "confident" I'd be "vindicated." I would say I absolutely did NOT have that conversation and I am consulting my attorney about a libel lawsuit.
To add to what I said above, if Sean went to the administration and insisted he did not have that conversation, why wouldn't they have let him coach Saturday. They know he couldn't lie, because if the conversation was on tape, his lie would be exposed. I still think if he hadn't had that conversation he would have denied it more vigorously.
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  #238  
Old 02-27-2018, 02:04 PM
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It's now Tuesday and Sean Miller still has not been fired. In today's azcentral.com it states:

"If Miller was found to have broken NCAA rules and UA decided to fire him, that could set up a messy dispute.

Language in Miller’s contract says that if he is terminated with cause, “the University’s sole obligation to Coach shall be the payment of his Base Salary as provided” –—but it doesn’t specify if that payment includes base salary he’s due to earn over the length of his contract or just to the date of termination.

However, UA spokesman Chris Sigurdson indicated that in such a case, future contracted salary would not be included.

“We recognize there may be some ambiguity in the language of the contract,” Sigurdson said via email, “but Arizona courts look to the intent of the parties, and the intent of the parties in this case is clear. Base salary and any additional compensation are payable only to the date of termination.”


Moral of the story - never hire a lawyer who got his degree from the University of Arizona Law School - regardless of which side of the contract you are on.
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  #239  
Old 02-27-2018, 02:14 PM
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If firing Miller 'with cause' forces them to pay more, then Arizona needs to fire Miller without cause...DUH!

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  #240  
Old 02-27-2018, 02:17 PM
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How does an elite high school player get into the G League? The prospect must be 18 years old and would have to request a contract from the G League. The G League Basketball Operations Committee would then determine whether the prospect is good enough to play in the league. That means the league wouldn’t sign a player unless that player is deemed talented enough. If the answer is yes, the prospect would be signed to a contract and entered into the G League draft.
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Old 02-27-2018, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I never heard Archie say his plans were never to leave UD. He said he was happy at UD and administration took good care of him. He did talk about building a long term program at UD, but he was always waiting for the right offer. It was not about the money. Sean may have discovered it was about the money and the players.

The administration talked to him early about taking the right next job. They realized he would leave as soon as he proved he was an excellent coach. Too many schools wanted him. That happened almost right away. I remember having the conversation about that year 2 of his tenure with an administration person.

That is why his contract had three schools in his escape clause.

The administration did not want him to leave and tried to counter the offer from IU.
That is not at all correct. This is EXACTLY what Archie stated in the USA Today Article:

"So, to me being able to coach here as long as they want me to, that's what I'm happy about. Coming into this season, higher expectations, more awareness. We've been able to play and win games."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...wers/24111833/
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  #242  
Old 02-27-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
To add to what I said above, if Sean went to the administration and insisted he did not have that conversation, why wouldn't they have let him coach Saturday. They know he couldn't lie, because if the conversation was on tape, his lie would be exposed. I still think if he hadn't had that conversation he would have denied it more vigorously.
First, he was on the road with the team. The board of regents met on Saturday and one might assume without all the info and ability to meet in person, all parties decided Sean should fly back to AZ and prepare to meet. It’s being reported he did meet with UA administration with his lawyers on Monday and they argued the ESPN report is false.

UA now has to make a decision. Also, 247 Sports is reporting that they have a source familiar with the actual wiretap recording and it will vindicate Sean of the ESPN reporting. But I also realize that might just mean they have the wrong player named (Ayton) and everything else could be true. You just don’t know until the Feds come forward with charges or the evidence (recording of transcript).
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Old 02-27-2018, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
First, he was on the road with the team. The board of regents met on Saturday and one might assume without all the info and ability to meet in person, all parties decided Sean should fly back to AZ and prepare to meet. It’s being reported he did meet with UA administration with his lawyers on Monday and they argued the ESPN report is false.

UA now has to make a decision. Also, 247 Sports is reporting that they have a source familiar with the actual wiretap recording and it will vindicate Sean of the ESPN reporting. But I also realize that might just mean they have the wrong player named (Ayton) and everything else could be true. You just don’t know until the Feds come forward with charges or the evidence (recording of transcript).
ESPN: Oops we meant Archie Miller at Dayton not Sean Miller with D. Ayton...
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  #244  
Old 02-27-2018, 07:47 PM
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How about this approach...

Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
First, he was on the road with the team. The board of regents met on Saturday and one might assume without all the info and ability to meet in person, all parties decided Sean should fly back to AZ and prepare to meet. It’s being reported he did meet with UA administration with his lawyers on Monday and they argued the ESPN report is false.

UA now has to make a decision. Also, 247 Sports is reporting that they have a source familiar with the actual wiretap recording and it will vindicate Sean of the ESPN reporting. But I also realize that might just mean they have the wrong player named (Ayton) and everything else could be true. You just don’t know until the Feds come forward with charges or the evidence (recording of transcript).
The trustees listen to SM and then say something like this: OK, Sean, we hear you, we're willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and you are our coach...provided you are willing to accept a modification of your contract right now...today....agreeing that if it should turn out that UA has grounds to fire you for cause you leave without a dime. An innocent man should not hesitate to accept such an agreement. If he would not isn't that essentially admitting that things probably will be uncovered that are NCAA violations....not trivial stuff. In fact, the wording could be that if anything reported by ESPN turns out to be true you will be fired for cause. That limits SM's financial liability to the present situation.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Also, 247 Sports is reporting that they have a source familiar with the actual wiretap recording and it will vindicate Sean of the ESPN reporting.

Another twist in this media drama (circus?) is that the 247 Sports articles are being spearheaded by Evan Daniels, who is also listed as “FS1’s College Basketball Insider.” Fox Sports 1 is, of course, a chief competitor of ESPN. 247 Sports also has a content partnership with CBS Sports, ESPN’s other chief competitor.

I wonder if they really have a source or if they are just trolling ESPN?
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Whether there was a timeline issue or not, are we going to overlook the fact that one of Arizona's assistants (Book Richardson) was charged in the initial round of criminal indictments here?

Asked if he believes Miller knew about Richardson’s association with Dawkins, Hansen said this:

“Sean Miller is a control freak at the top of all control freaks. His hand is on everything. He runs everything with an iron fist here. He didn’t give Book a raise three years ago and he raised all of his other assistants because he didn’t think Book recruited well enough.

“I would have a hard time believing he didn’t know all of this.”


http://arizonasports.com/story/14433...n-brian-bowen/
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:54 PM
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I wonder if any of these guys have any source(s). There is that kids game - and I can’t remember what it’s called - where kids sit in a circle and whisper something in the ear of the kid next to them and they whisper to the next kid all the way around the circle and by the time it gets to the last kid it’s totally changed because the kids aren’t sure what they heard but the pass on what they think they heard. That’s today’s reporting.
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  #248  
Old 02-27-2018, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I wonder if any of these guys have any source(s). There is that kids game - and I can’t remember what it’s called - where kids sit in a circle and whisper something in the ear of the kid next to them and they whisper to the next kid all the way around the circle and by the time it gets to the last kid it’s totally changed because the kids aren’t sure what they heard but the pass on what they think they heard. That’s today’s reporting.
Telephone game
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  #249  
Old 02-28-2018, 07:47 AM
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For your reading pleasure.

WARNING: I would hesitate to call some of the content journalism or investigative reporting, but there are some nuggets that I was not aware of. Like, the FBI raided Sean Miller's home at the time they busted Book Richardson. Maybe it was reported, I just don't recall. Which is why there is speculation in this story that UofA and SM are lawyered up and negotiating an exit and maybe UofA is holding off because there may be more (bad) news forthcoming that might influence the exit agreement.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...p-z/379456002/
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  #250  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
For your reading pleasure.

WARNING: I would hesitate to call some of the content journalism or investigative reporting, but there are some nuggets that I was not aware of. Like, the FBI raided Sean Miller's home at the time they busted Book Richardson. Maybe it was reported, I just don't recall. Which is why there is speculation in this story that UofA and SM are lawyered up and negotiating an exit and maybe UofA is holding off because there may be more (bad) news forthcoming that might influence the exit agreement.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...p-z/379456002/
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  #251  
Old 02-28-2018, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
That is not at all correct. This is EXACTLY what Archie stated in the USA Today Article:

"So, to me being able to coach here as long as they want me to, that's what I'm happy about. Coming into this season, higher expectations, more awareness. We've been able to play and win games."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...wers/24111833/
You heard what you wanted to hear in that quote. He isn't saying he wants to stay here forever - he is saying he likes the security of being able to stay here a long time if UD wants him to - not that he actually will do that.

Plus, what is he supposed to say? "Oh yeah, I'm out of here first chance I get!" Of course he was going to say he wants to stay.

Indiana is a better job. He should have taken it and he did. I suppose you have never left one job for another...
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
You heard what you wanted to hear in that quote. He isn't saying he wants to stay here forever - he is saying he likes the security of being able to stay here a long time if UD wants him to - not that he actually will do that.

Plus, what is he supposed to say? "Oh yeah, I'm out of here first chance I get!" Of course he was going to say he wants to stay.

Indiana is a better job. He should have taken it and he did. I suppose you have never left one job for another...
To some Indiana may be a better job, just ask all of the coaches that have been fired there over the years if they agree. Bigger is not always better. Is Indiana a better "job" than Gonzaga? I have to wonder if Archie is really happier at Indiana. He might be able to recruit at a higher level there, but does that make it a better "job"? Only he knows right now. I watched a video of Archie speaking to the Indiana home crowd after the senior night loss last week - something looked and felt off about it. In my opinion, Archie and Dayton were a very good match - the undersized point guard coaching the underdog. To me, something does not fit with Archie and Indiana. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I think he had a really good job and left for what he thought might be a better job. Let's see how he feels in a few years. I wonder what Tom Crean would say?
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  #253  
Old 02-28-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
To some Indiana may be a better job, just ask all of the coaches that have been fired there over the years if they agree. Bigger is not always better. Is Indiana a better "job" than Gonzaga? I have to wonder if Archie is really happier at Indiana. He might be able to recruit at a higher level there, but does that make it a better "job"? Only he knows right now. I watched a video of Archie speaking to the Indiana home crowd after the senior night loss last week - something looked and felt off about it. In my opinion, Archie and Dayton were a very good match - the undersized point guard coaching the underdog. To me, something does not fit with Archie and Indiana. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I think he had a really good job and left for what he thought might be a better job. Let's see how he feels in a few years. I wonder what Tom Crean would say?
There are over 1000 Division 1 coaches available (HC and Asst). If hired and successful as HC, I doubt you would find 3% that would stay at UD with a chance to coach Indiana. I doubt you would find .1% that would say they were happy coaching UD but would leave for any another job at a press conference or in an interview.
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Old 02-28-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
To some Indiana may be a better job, just ask all of the coaches that have been fired there over the years if they agree. Bigger is not always better. Is Indiana a better "job" than Gonzaga? I have to wonder if Archie is really happier at Indiana. He might be able to recruit at a higher level there, but does that make it a better "job"? Only he knows right now. I watched a video of Archie speaking to the Indiana home crowd after the senior night loss last week - something looked and felt off about it. In my opinion, Archie and Dayton were a very good match - the undersized point guard coaching the underdog. To me, something does not fit with Archie and Indiana. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I think he had a really good job and left for what he thought might be a better job. Let's see how he feels in a few years. I wonder what Tom Crean would say?
That's all fair. In my opinion Indiana is one of a few jobs that still stands above the rest. I base that on their history and on their current fan support.

It may end up not working out for Archie there, but I was speaking more to the idea that he said he would never leave. I guess I never heard that in his statements. He said a lot of things about being happy here and wanting to be here, but doesn't mean he can't want to be somewhere else too.

Even as he made those comments we all knew it was coming. Doesn't mean it wasn't a punch to the crotch when it actually did.
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  #255  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
To some Indiana may be a better job, just ask all of the coaches that have been fired there over the years if they agree. Bigger is not always better. Is Indiana a better "job" than Gonzaga? I have to wonder if Archie is really happier at Indiana. He might be able to recruit at a higher level there, but does that make it a better "job"? Only he knows right now. I watched a video of Archie speaking to the Indiana home crowd after the senior night loss last week - something looked and felt off about it. In my opinion, Archie and Dayton were a very good match - the undersized point guard coaching the underdog. To me, something does not fit with Archie and Indiana. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I think he had a really good job and left for what he thought might be a better job. Let's see how he feels in a few years. I wonder what Tom Crean would say?
Every young coach probably wants to advance to the highest level they can. Most, if not all are type A driven people. AM is no different. UD knew that he had a number of schools he would leave for, and obviously IU was one of them. That said, is IU a better job? That is not a question that can be answered until you have a number of years under your belt.
A couple of things stick out to me:
-AM hates the glad handing / PR end of the job. I think UD was at the lower end of the spectrum from that point. IU is probably in the top 10 in terms of time required to meet and greet.
-AM was hugely appreciated for getting UD to the Elite 8 and for consistant NCAA appearances. He over achieved in our eyes. At IU, yearly Elite 8 appearances is the floor from which you will be judged. His honeymoon will be short. This feeds directly into the previous point, as well.
-AM will be able to recruit players at IU that he could only dream of at UD. BUT, given all of the recent events in general, and specifically if your last name is Miller, recruiting will be tougher. If he ever had a notion to go down the same path as Sean, that is now gone. AM will always wonder if a recruit or his family will paint him with the same brush as Sean. And, competing schools will be glad to plant that seed for him.

So, is IU a "better" job for AM? Time will tell, but you don't know how good you have it, until it's gone . . . .
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Old 02-28-2018, 02:28 PM
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Timing in Life is Everything

Having spent 30 years in Human Resources I am here to tell you that Archie Miller gets an A+ for maximizing his select-ability by potential hiring programs. UD won the A-10 and went to their 4th consecutive NCAA tournament. He was graduating the most successful senior class in UD basketball history. This was the perfect time for him to exit the program for one that he
desired. As a loyal Flyer Fanatic my first reaction was "Oh No! The King of Flyer Hoops is Dead!" But then Archie departed and the new King appeared as Anthony Grant. I say congratulations to Archie for managing his career as well as he managed many Flyer games. He will be remembered as one of the greatest UD Flyer coaches of all time. But now we have a new King of Flyer Hoops. Long live the King!
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  #257  
Old 02-28-2018, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
To some Indiana may be a better job, just ask all of the coaches that have been fired there over the years if they agree. Bigger is not always better. Is Indiana a better "job" than Gonzaga? I have to wonder if Archie is really happier at Indiana. He might be able to recruit at a higher level there, but does that make it a better "job"? Only he knows right now. I watched a video of Archie speaking to the Indiana home crowd after the senior night loss last week - something looked and felt off about it. In my opinion, Archie and Dayton were a very good match - the undersized point guard coaching the underdog. To me, something does not fit with Archie and Indiana. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but I think he had a really good job and left for what he thought might be a better job. Let's see how he feels in a few years. I wonder what Tom Crean would say?
There are so many items that go into evaluating and comparing one job to another - things like pay, recruits, support, history, conference, etc., etc., etc. At this level, the one thing that is pretty undeniable is that you can realistically say at Indiana - “I can win a National Championship here.” It would be really tough to say that at Dayton and be taken seriously.
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:16 PM
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Federal prosecutors looking into bribery at the highest levels of college basketball protested leaks of court documents detailing payments to players, saying the premature disclosure of evidence could endanger their investigation. The revelation contributes to a cloud hanging over the sport just days before the field of teams for the national tournament is unveiled.


Assistant coaches, agents and sportswear company representatives have been charged with facilitating bribes and kickbacks to entice high school basketball players to join premier college programs. The indictments follow a three-year probe into National Collegiate Athletic Association basketball. The investigation was thrust back into the spotlight last week when Yahoo Sports reported that hundreds of pages of documents from the probe showed an "underground recruiting operation."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-prosecutors

Three year probe .... plenty of time to do multiple and often wiretaps on any number of people!
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:29 PM
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For those of you with hurt feelings on AM departure .... sorry!

At one time, way back in the day getting an offer (either straight out of UD or early in one's career) from Big Blue (IBM for some of you) was exciting and you just had to consider it almost no matter what else you were doing.

In today's world it would be (possibly) Google, Facebook, or some other top tech firm. Well at least for the more engineering, math or computer related geeks in the audience. (Social work, history majors, english lit folks may not need to apply!)

Of course there could be some other personal factors involved in the decision but sometimes the offer is just too enticing to ignore or refuse. I think Archie saw this as his most important opportunity that may not come along again in some time .... (not knowing that the OSU job would be open shortly after).

Yes I was disappointed .... but I understand the calculus involved ...

Should I stay or should I go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN1WwnEDWAM
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Old 03-01-2018, 02:41 PM
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Sean Miller holding a presser as this is being typed.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawild...1d8e86577.html

He is staying.
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Old 03-01-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Sean Miller holding a presser as this is being typed.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawild...1d8e86577.html

He is staying.
That's great that he gets to decide his own fate. I wish I had that kind of power in my job. Although if I were him I may have fired myself and taken the $10M!
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  #262  
Old 03-01-2018, 03:42 PM
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With Chris' help we were able to find my original column about Christian Dawkins from 2007:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31944

If I have to choose between Sean Miller's word and Christian Dawkins', I'm taking Sean Miller 10/10. If the kid would create his own website and rank himself one of the top players in the country when he was 14, he is capable of fabricating expense reports at 25.
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  #263  
Old 03-01-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
With Chris' help we were able to find my original column about Christian Dawkins from 2007:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31944

If I have to choose between Sean Miller's word and Christian Dawkins', I'm taking Sean Miller 10/10. If the kid would create his own website and rank himself one of the top players in the country when he was 14, he is capable of fabricating expense reports at 25.
I would tend to agree.

A couple of things:

1. I don’t think Miller was in the expense report(s). Miller is linked to a wiretap conversation. Tough to fabricate.
2. It doesn’t appear Miller denied having had the conversation(s). His words were carefully chosen/written. Things like - “I haven’t broken any rules.” “I’ve never paid a recruit or family.” It doesn’t say - “I never had such a conversation.” Or “That’s not me on the tape.” If I am Arizona, I am firing him just for the conceptual conversation, regardless if any of the proposed conversations actually transpired.
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Old 03-01-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
I would tend to agree.

2. It doesn’t appear Miller denied having had the conversation(s). His words were carefully chosen/written. Things like - “I haven’t broken any rules.” “I’ve never paid a recruit or family.” It doesn’t say - “I never had such a conversation.” Or “That’s not me on the tape.” If I am Arizona, I am firing him just for the conceptual conversation, regardless if any of the proposed conversations actually transpired.
I thought it sounded like that too SLU, but further down in the article it offered another more definitive denial.

"I have never discussed with Christian Dawkins paying Deandre Ayton to attend the University of Arizona. In fact, I never even met or spoke to Christian Dawkins until after Deandre publicly announced that he was coming to our school. Any reporting to the contrary is inaccurate, false and defamatory."
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Old 03-01-2018, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
I thought it sounded like that too SLU, but further down in the article it offered another more definitive denial.

"I have never discussed with Christian Dawkins paying Deandre Ayton to attend the University of Arizona. In fact, I never even met or spoke to Christian Dawkins until after Deandre publicly announced that he was coming to our school. Any reporting to the contrary is inaccurate, false and defamatory."
Yeah, I went on to read his entire statement after my first post.

A couple other things that I saw/read, or didn’t see/read - all of his comments about what he has done or hasn’t done were all related to “this program” at UofA. If I was clean as a whistle from start to finish, my statement would have read “here at UofA as well as every other program I have been with.”
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Old 03-01-2018, 04:26 PM
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Miller is staying. another innocent coach just looking out for the welfare of all concerned, a credit to his profession.
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  #267  
Old 03-01-2018, 04:57 PM
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With the years that the FBI has investigated this situation and the number of individuals that have been mentioned besides the few early names that were part of the first revelations some of the other named folks that has since come out may have some explaining to do ... eventually.

Remember you express innocence until you can't make that claim anymore. If the FBI has evidence let the powerful fall wherever they are.
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Old 03-01-2018, 05:19 PM
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I was in the “ what if ESPN is wrong” frame of mind pretty early on in this, but you never know. After the SM press conference I’ve moved into the Sean Miller and D Ayton have been defamed frame of mind. And I’m sorry to say ESPN will probably suffer nothing. This article explains why.

https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...on-espn-report
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  #269  
Old 03-01-2018, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I was in the “ what if ESPN is wrong” frame of mind pretty early on in this, but you never know. After the SM press conference I’ve moved into the Sean Miller and D Ayton have been defamed frame of mind. And I’m sorry to say ESPN will probably suffer nothing. This article explains why.

https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...on-espn-report
The news media (I would include ESPN) are as much to blame for this country's decline as the Russians. When you can't believe CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or ESPN, what stops anyone from believing what they read on "News reports" from Twitter and Facebook? Everyone has an agenda these days. There is a reason why the media has lower favorable ratings than even Congress. Of course, that is if you can believe the polls...

I used to not be so cynical. Is it a sign of the times or a sign of my age?
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  #270  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Sean Miller holding a presser as this is being typed.

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawild...1d8e86577.html

He is staying.

Wow, I gotta admit that although I have never been a Sean Miller fan, I do kind of like his defiance here.

However, while he vehemently denies having the conversation about paying D. Ayton, he does admit:

“I also want you to know that the one time someone suggested to me paying a player to come to the University of Arizona I did not agree to it. It never happened. And that player did not come to the University of Arizona. Out of respect for this ongoing investigation, the privacy of the student-athlete and his family, I’m not gonna share further details concerning this matter.”

So it appears that Sean admits that he did indeed have a conversation about paying a player, but it was probably not D. Ayton. Was it Brian Bowen or another player who did not come to Arizona?

ESPN might owe a huge apology to D. Ayton, but the crux of Schlabach’s ESPN story might still be accurate: That Sean Miller had a discussion about paying for a player to come to Arizona, even though according to Sean that player did not, in fact, attend U of A.

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  #271  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:30 PM
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Mark Schlabach on ESPN today:

“Based on my conversations this weekend, I have no reason to believe anything in that story is inaccurate. The telephone conversation recorded by wiretaps remains under federal seal. If and when that seal is removed, we’ll find out.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/SportsPac...48476558499840
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  #272  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
The news media (I would include ESPN) are as much to blame for this country's decline as the Russians. When you can't believe CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, or ESPN, what stops anyone from believing what they read on "News reports" from Twitter and Facebook? Everyone has an agenda these days. There is a reason why the media has lower favorable ratings than even Congress. Of course, that is if you can believe the polls...

I used to not be so cynical. Is it a sign of the times or a sign of my age?
Answer: Yes.
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  #273  
Old 03-02-2018, 04:43 AM
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Sean Miller said he didn't do it, then that's that. His word is solid gold. Never known him to say one thing and do another.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but his word is about as good as the media's.
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  #274  
Old 03-02-2018, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Sean Miller said he didn't do it, then that's that. His word is solid gold. Never known him to say one thing and do another.

I don't know if he did or didn't, but his word is about as good as the media's.
The hair on the back of all X fans just raised like a pit bull stalking a mail man. His word IS solid good.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
ESPN might owe a huge apology to D. Ayton, but the crux of Schlabach’s ESPN story might still be accurate: That Sean Miller had a discussion about paying a player to come to Arizona, even though according to Sean that player did not, in fact, attend U of A.
The crux of the story is that he talked about handling the money for the paid player himself.

Is it possible these are both the same thing interpreted in different ways? I guess. But what is clear is that no one is going to be the first one to admit that this has been going on for years and that they're involved.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:49 AM
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Did Rick Pitino write that denial statement? Sure sounded like it.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Did Rick Pitino write that denial statement? Sure sounded like it.
It was a collaborative effort: Slick Rick, Ryan Braun, and Rafael Palmeiro.

SM used all the right verbiage:
"never knowingly..."
"didn't have conversation with Dawkins until after Ayton publicly announced..."

So he's not denying at all that he's spoken with Dawkins (red flag?), just made sure to add the "knowingly" and somehow talking to Dawkins after Ayton committed makes it alright?

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  #278  
Old 03-02-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
The crux of the story is that he talked about handling the money for the paid player himself.

Is it possible these are both the same thing interpreted in different ways? I guess. But what is clear is that no one is going to be the first one to admit that this has been going on for years and that they're involved.
SM said he was approached once about paying a high recruit to come to AZ and that he never agreed to pay the player and the player never came to AZ. I’d say SM just admitted that the black market to pay players is real, but he has never agreed to pay.

Over the last couple days I read a report of a podcast that someone said they talked to Book Richardson and the player during the Dawkins/Sean conversation wasn’t D Ayton but rather Brian Bowen. Then the next day the guy who said it back tracked saying he meant to say that IF he talked to Richardson he could envision being told the player disvussed during the alledged conversation was Bowen and then the date of the conversation wouldn’t be an issue, etc. basically then it would make sense.

Point is no one talking or reporting about this alledged conversation has a transcript or heard the recording if it even exists, so everything is hearsay, not fact. The only person who has spoken that has firsthand knowledge is Sean Miller who has disclosed to AZ he was approached about paying a player. And then those parties agreed to disclose that to the public. I think that was smart.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer View Post
However, while he vehemently denies having a conversation with D. Ayton, he does admit:

“I also want you to know that the one time someone suggested to me paying a player to come to the University of Arizona I did not agree to it. It never happened. And that player did not come to the University of Arizona. Out of respect for this ongoing investigation, the privacy of the student-athlete and his family, I’m not gonna share further details concerning this matter.”
Because?

- It wasn't enough money . . .
- It was too much money and it would attract attention . . .
- I knew this was illegal so I immediately reported the conversation to the authorities . . . .
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  #280  
Old 03-02-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
SM said he was approached once about paying a high recruit to come to AZ and that he never agreed to pay the player and the player never came to AZ. I’d say SM just admitted that the black market to pay players is real, but he has never agreed to pay.

Over the last couple days I read a report of a podcast that someone said they talked to Book Richardson and the player during the Dawkins/Sean conversation wasn’t D Ayton but rather Brian Bowen. Then the next day the guy who said it back tracked saying he meant to say that IF he talked to Richardson he could envision being told the player disvussed during the alledged conversation was Bowen and then the date of the conversation wouldn’t be an issue, etc. basically then it would make sense.

Point is no one talking or reporting about this alledged conversation has a transcript or heard the recording if it even exists, so everything is hearsay, not fact. The only person who has spoken that has firsthand knowledge is Sean Miller who has disclosed to AZ he was approached about paying a player. And then those parties agreed to disclose that to the public. I think that was smart.
Hearsay can certainly be true and therefor factual. Just because it is hearsay does not mean it is not true. And, this may not be hearsay at all. If the source is someone with personal knowledge of the conversation, it is not hearsay.
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Old 03-02-2018, 04:10 PM
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AZ now has zero 2018 recruits left. They have lost all 3. That does NOT help Dayton. It will be a big name school hitting the juco and transfer market hard. They have several seniors and 2-3 underclassmen headed to the NBA.
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  #282  
Old 03-02-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
AZ now has zero 2018 recruits left. They have lost all 3. That does NOT help Dayton. It will be a big name school hitting the juco and transfer market hard. They have several seniors and 2-3 underclassmen headed to the NBA.
We don't shop in the same supermarket as UA.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
We don't shop in the same supermarket as UA.
I've seen Sean Miller at Dorothy Lane Market and I've seen Anthony Grant at Aldi's.
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Old 03-02-2018, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe View Post
I've seen Sean Miller at Dorothy Lane Market and I've seen Anthony Grant at Aldi's.
At least Aldi's is a classier joint than Save-A-Lot.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:49 PM
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Everyone does it and has been doing it for a long time:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ec800d7a59f9
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Sid Louick View Post
Everyone does it and has been doing it for a long time:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ec800d7a59f9
This what I've been trying to say, where are all the clean coaches calling these guys on the carpet over the years. Being complicit hasn't helped this matter. Even now I've heard very few coaches say anything about coaches cheating being the first thing they need to clean up. It's all about how the NCAA needs to change. And they do need to change but cheaters need to also be called out because they'll still cheat even with the new rules.
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Old 03-03-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
It was a collaborative effort: Slick Rick, Ryan Braun, and Rafael Palmeiro.

SM used all the right verbiage:
"never knowingly..."
"didn't have conversation with Dawkins until after Ayton publicly announced..."

So he's not denying at all that he's spoken with Dawkins (red flag?), just made sure to add the "knowingly" and somehow talking to Dawkins after Ayton committed makes it alright?
I noticed those weasel-words as well, especially the term "knowingly." They sounded to me like they had been crafted by some slick lawyer. The university may not have made payments to prospects directly, but agents did...with the full knowledge of Sean Miller and the university's athletic hierarchy. I made a living out of avoiding slick talk and shooting straight with people. I can smell slick talk a mile away and this fits the description perfectly.
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  #288  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
We don't shop in the same supermarket as UA.
Everyone who needs to fill their cart up for 2018 at this point are all shopping at the day-old bread store looking to find an overlooked or late developing player. All the 4-5 star players are gone.
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Old 03-03-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Everyone who needs to fill their cart up for 2018 at this point are all shopping at the day-old bread store looking to find an overlooked or late developing player. All the 4-5 star players are gone.
You don't need a roster of 4 or 5 star players. You need players who are smart, tough, and have a strong will to succeed, who want/will play as a team.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:09 PM
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I tuned I to the beginning of the UC Witchita State game. The color announcer was talking about the arena named Charles Koch arena. Then he slipped with a Fruedian. He said that the Koch Brothers were the mafia bosses of AAU basketball. Immediately, he began to try to recant.

Ignore the politics here. This just shows what money has done to basketball and not just the NCAA. The shoe companies, agents, NBA and wealthy donors have their big dollars in the game.

There are lots of other sugar daddies besides the two in Witchita. It does help me appreciate why their program is so strong and lately seems to be an annual NCAA tournament team.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I tuned I to the beginning of the UC Witchita State game. The color announcer was talking about the arena named Charles Koch arena. Then he slipped with a Fruedian. He said that the Koch Brothers were the mafia bosses of AAU basketball. Immediately, he began to try to recant.
Another thing about that game was the size of some of those dudes. We need to get some players with some beef to compete at a higher level. Some of those guys would make Charles Little and Nate Green look small.
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  #292  
Old 03-05-2018, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I tuned I to the beginning of the UC Witchita State game. The color announcer was talking about the arena named Charles Koch arena. Then he slipped with a Fruedian. He said that the Koch Brothers were the mafia bosses of AAU basketball. Immediately, he began to try to recant.

Ignore the politics here. This just shows what money has done to basketball and not just the NCAA. The shoe companies, agents, NBA and wealthy donors have their big dollars in the game.

There are lots of other sugar daddies besides the two in Witchita. It does help me appreciate why their program is so strong and lately seems to be an annual NCAA tournament team.
Not sure how that conclusion emanates from the stupid and false political slap of some liberal broadcaster. To paint WSU with some broad brush, that somehow they cheat and have used money to get where they are, is not fair. I am no fan of that school, but until proven guilty, they are playing just a fairly as UD and all other struggling smaller sports programs.
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:39 PM
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Why is saying the Koch brothers are the mafia bosses of AAU political?

Some of you literally can't look through anything unless it is through the lens of right vs. left.
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
You don't need a roster of 4 or 5 star players. You need players who are smart, tough, and have a strong will to succeed, who want/will play as a team.
That said, it doesnt hurt. Gregg Marshall has a five-star and two four-stars in the starting lineup. And thats not even accounting for Shaq Morris. Marshall is also a master at talent evaluation of those below the radar. He seemingly cant miss. Add solid coaching and they are now Gonzaga of the Great Plains.

Of their six losses this year:
1pt to Notre Dame
1pt to Cincinnati
2pts to Temple
5pts to SMU
8pts to Oklahoma
14pts to Houston
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  #295  
Old 03-05-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
That said, it doesnt hurt. Gregg Marshall has a five-star and two four-stars in the starting lineup. And thats not even accounting for Shaq Morris. Marshall is also a master at talent evaluation of those below the radar. He seemingly cant miss. Add solid coaching and they are now Gonzaga of the Great Plains.

Of their six losses this year:
1pt to Notre Dame
1pt to Cincinnati
2pts to Temple
5pts to SMU
8pts to Oklahoma
14pts to Houston
I believe they lost only one or didn't lose in February....a team that is playing better at the right time. Koch brothers support helps too.
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  #296  
Old 03-06-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Why is saying the Koch brothers are the mafia bosses of AAU political?

Some of you literally can't look through anything unless it is through the lens of right vs. left.
So you see nothing wrong with some broadcaster making slanderous and false statements about people.

First off. it it is not the Koch brothers. Pretty much it is Charlie who has given a great deal of money to WSU, and only some to the athletic department. The other two do not even live there. Charlie gave $6 mil for the arena, and $4.5 mil to athletics about 3 years ago, and I am sure other amounts here and there, but the guy and his one brother have given much bigger amounts to public buildings, cancer, the arts, hospitals and parks.

Where is the basis of the AAU claim? Can you, or anyone, tell me how much they gave to any AAU team or player? I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you do not know about the ongoing slander and fake news about the Koch's by the left.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Where is the basis of the AAU claim? Can you, or anyone, tell me how much they gave to any AAU team or player? I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you do not know about the ongoing slander and fake news about the Koch's by the left.
I'm not sure that the collective knowledge of folks on a Dayton message board is a great measure as to whether or not something in Wichita, Kansas did or did not happen. Seems like flimsy standards to label something fake news.
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Old 03-10-2018, 03:32 PM
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Here we go again, as the same grand jury is looking at NCST. Has to be about Dennis Smith
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...court-53648814
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Old 03-10-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Everyone who needs to fill their cart up for 2018 at this point are all shopping at the day-old bread store looking to find an overlooked or late developing player. All the 4-5 star players are gone.
That said, it wouldn't take 4's and 5's to shore up the UD bench.
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Old 03-10-2018, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
That said, it doesnt hurt. Gregg Marshall has a five-star and two four-stars in the starting lineup. And thats not even accounting for Shaq Morris. Marshall is also a master at talent evaluation of those below the radar. He seemingly cant miss. Add solid coaching and they are now Gonzaga of the Great Plains.

Of their six losses this year:
1pt to Notre Dame
1pt to Cincinnati
2pts to Temple
5pts to SMU
8pts to Oklahoma
14pts to Houston
They don't have a fives star starter or have they ever had one.

Wichita State’s basketball success not built on nationally known recruits

Wichita State — in the tournament for the sixth straight season under Coach Gregg Marshall — has built its success on players who weren’t well known coming out of high school. This bunch is no different.

Wichita State has only one player who was considered a Top 100 prospect coming out of high school — Conner Frankamp — and he originally signed with Kansas. Of the seven other Shockers with 247Sports composite rankings as high schoolers, only two -- Markis McDuffie and Landry Shamet — were considered Top 250 recruits nationally.

McDuffie was the No. 130 overall recruit in the 2015 class, and Shamet — the team’s second-leading scorer — was the No. 174 overall prospect in that group. Every other Shocker was ranked outside the Top 250 in his respective class. C.J. Keyser was No. 254 in 2016, Shaquille Morris was No. 316 in 2013, Eric Hamilton was No. 322 in 2015, Rashard Kelly was No. 339 in 2014 and Rauno Nurger was No. 348 in 2014.

Junior forward Zach Brown has started 29 games this season, but he didn’t have a 247Sports ranking out of high school. Freshman guard Austin Reaves, who plays 11.9 minutes per game, also had no 247Sports ranking.

Key contributors Darral Willis Jr. (No. 11 junior-college player nationally in 2016) and Daishon Smith (the No. 29 junior-college player that year) both came to the Shockers from the juco ranks.
http://www.kentucky.com/sports/colle...139379123.html
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