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View Poll Results: Tweeet? or no Tweeeet? That is the question
No Tweet....perfectly legal play by the White center. 15 68.18%
TWEEET! Foul on White Center. You can't face and box out an opponent 7 31.82%
TWEET! Intentional/Flagrant Foul for illegal and aggressive contact on box out 0 0%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-23-2018, 07:55 AM
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You Make the Call - Boxout

White has the ball, Blue is on defense. Score: White 75, Blue 73 and 1:23 left.

White is passing the ball around the perimeter looking to run the clock down as much as possible before shooting. Blue's defense is playing conservatively, protecting the basket in anticipation of a missed shot.

With 2 seconds left on the shot clock (0:58 left in the game), White shoots a '3' from the left wing. The Blue center, roaming the low post and on the left side of the rim, sees the shot and turns to box out whoever is closest. He sees the White center on the opposite low post and takes 3 large steps toward him. Face-to-face with his opponent and with his arms straight up, the white center uses his chest to box out the Blue center. As the shot hits the rim, the white center turns and rebounds the ball that falls into his hands without having to jump..as he turns, the Blue center falls to the ground.

You're the royal ref...Make the call!!!!

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Old 04-23-2018, 09:00 AM
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Since his hands were up in the air and not on the opponent, no foul there. In the act of turning, you didn't describe and push with the rear, hips, or hands, so no foul.
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Old 04-23-2018, 09:28 AM
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I'm 99.9% sure that face-guarding on a box out is illegal on at least one level. I'm just not certain at what level or if the rules are the same from HS to NBA on this. But since the Royal Ref didn't specify, I'll assume it's the same at all levels.

Foul on white center.

Last edited by Lowd&ProUD; 04-23-2018 at 09:30 AM.. Reason: oops
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Old 04-23-2018, 09:48 AM
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99.9999% of players and coaches have no idea that face guarding is illegal. I'm not saying that it applies here because maybe it does, I just want to compliment Lowd&ProUD for using a term that few know exists.

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Old 04-23-2018, 09:56 AM
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I'm confused by the description. Blue center is crossing from one side of the basket to the other to box out White center. So Blue has inside position? But white "boxes out" blue center. So White has inside position? Did white actually "box in" the Blue Center so that he fell down right under the basket? Or was White just quick enough step right in front of Blue to get the inside position?
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
I'm confused by the description. Blue center is crossing from one side of the basket to the other to box out White center. So Blue has inside position? But white "boxes out" blue center. So White has inside position? Did white actually "box in" the Blue Center so that he fell down right under the basket? Or was White just quick enough step right in front of Blue to get the inside position?
Blue center was on the left side of the low post...same as the White shooter.

Shot goes up, so Blue center turn and sees White center on right side low post.

Blue center steps toward White center and meets him at the right low post and is face-to-face with him...Blue center's arms are straight up.

Since they're face-to-face, Blue center can't use his butt to box out so he boxes out with his chest, turns can catches the rebound.

White center falls down when Blue center turns around to rebound.
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Old 04-23-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
I'm 99.9% sure that face-guarding on a box out is illegal on at least one level. I'm just not certain at what level or if the rules are the same from HS to NBA on this. But since the Royal Ref didn't specify, I'll assume it's the same at all levels.

Foul on white center.
Putting your hands straight up in the air isn't face guarding. You have to have your hands in the other players face/eyes.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:20 AM
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I think the fact that the guy falls is red herring. Either you can, or cannot, obstruct a players path to the ball chest-to-chest.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Putting your hands straight up in the air isn't face guarding.
Even if you have no idea where the ball is?
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Even if you have no idea where the ball is?
College
The NCAA defines face guarding as, “Purposely obstructing an opponent's vision by waving or placing hand(s) near his or her eyes” in Rule 10, Section 6, Article 1 in the official rules, which cover both men’s and women’s basketball. The offender is penalized with a technical foul resulting in a free throw for the opposing team.

High School
The National Federation of State High School Associations first outlawed face guarding back in 1913, and it has left little room for interpretation of the rules since then. In 2004, the NFHS highlighted face guarding in its 2004 “Points of Emphasis” release for referees when the rule was modified to include actions occurring away from the ball. The release notes that placing a hand in the air while defending a player in the post is legal, but deliberately blocking the vision of the offensive player is not.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:57 AM
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BOOOO! HISSSSSS! Looking up the rule is no fair in YMTC. Posting it is worse.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:13 PM
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If I'm going to be questioned on it, how do I defend my answer without referring to the text? Plus, this was in specific response to face guarding, which was not the original question, because as described, the actions were not face guarding. Just facing the opponent, even with hands in the air is not face guarding.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
99.9999% of players and coaches have no idea that face guarding is illegal. :
Which is only about 3 percentage points higher than the number of officials who would call it
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
The NCAA defines face guarding as, “Purposely obstructing an opponent's vision by waving or placing hand(s) near his or her eyes” in Rule 10, Section 6, Article 1 in the official rules, which cover both men’s and women’s basketball. The offender is penalized with a technical foul resulting in a free throw for the opposing team.
This has created an entirely different question for me.

When I said "face guarding", I simply meant you're not allowed to box someone out by facing them. (I get the feeling I may lose my Royal Kudos by admitting that.)

But the way I read the above means that I can't wave my hands in the face of anyone, ever. If a guy picks up his dribble, I'm not allowed to my put my hands in his face to block his vision? Isn't that done in every game like ... oh, I dunno ... a hundred times?
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
This has created an entirely different question for me.

When I said "face guarding", I simply meant you're not allowed to box someone out by facing them. (I get the feeling I may lose my Royal Kudos by admitting that.)

But the way I read the above means that I can't wave my hands in the face of anyone, ever. If a guy picks up his dribble, I'm not allowed to my put my hands in his face to block his vision? Isn't that done in every game like ... oh, I dunno ... a hundred times?
That's the only reason I responded to your post, that face guarding has a very specific meaning that I think confuses some people. I see coaching websites which talk about how to face guard players that have nothing to do with putting a hand in the face of the opposing player. You can wave your hands in the air as long as it is straight up and down. You just can't put them right into the player's face or extreme close proximity. It's a protective measure.
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
This has created an entirely different question for me.

When I said "face guarding", I simply meant you're not allowed to box someone out by facing them. (I get the feeling I may lose my Royal Kudos by admitting that.)
I'll consider this Strike 1, so you're safe. For now.


Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
But the way I read the above means that I can't wave my hands in the face of anyone, ever. If a guy picks up his dribble, I'm not allowed to my put my hands in his face to block his vision? Isn't that done in every game like ... oh, I dunno ... a hundred times?
What you describe above I would consider 'defending the pass' and is legal, unless ClaytonFF is the coach.
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Old 04-24-2018, 10:01 AM
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As the shot hits the rim, the white center turns and rebounds the ball that falls into his hands without having to jump..as he turns, the Blue center falls to the ground.
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
White center falls down when Blue center turns around to rebound.
No wonder I'm confused. They seem to have switched jerseys in a split second there!
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:17 PM
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The player facing the basket is given preference from what I understand. The white Center is whistled for a common foul.
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:45 AM
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As long as you're in a legal defensive position, whether you are facing your opponent or not doesn't matter. In this case, the boxout occurs with the arms straight up, which is legal. The use of the chest is natural, and since he doesn't use his hands to create space, the move is legal. The fact that the offensive player falls down (flops) has nothing to do with anything but you see it so often - at every level - I had to include it.

Therefore, the proper call is 'no tweet'.

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Old 04-25-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
The fact that the offensive player falls down (flops) has nothing to do with anything but you see it so often - at every level - I had to include it.
:
Sick of seeing the flopping. I swear a few coaches at youth levels must be teaching this, or maybe it is just kids acting like their "heros" they see on TV doing the same. Need a rule change, much like hockey, where flopping is outlawed
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Sick of seeing the flopping. I swear a few coaches at youth levels must be teaching this, or maybe it is just kids acting like their "heros" they see on TV doing the same. Need a rule change, much like hockey, where flopping is outlawed
Blatant flopping is considered 'unsportsmanlike' and can result it a 'T'. It happened in a game of mine earlier this year when a kid stepped in to take a charge and the offensive player pulled up for a 10-footer. The defender fell straight back despite there being a 5-foot gap between the two.

TWEET! My partner, a crew-cut military type, didn't hesitate.
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Old 04-25-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Blatant flopping is considered 'unsportsmanlike' and can result it a 'T'. It happened in a game of mine earlier this year when a kid stepped in to take a charge and the offensive player pulled up for a 10-footer. The defender fell straight back despite there being a 5-foot gap between the two.

TWEET! My partner, a crew-cut military type, didn't hesitate.
Saw it once in a high school game I was coaching where our player pulled up with a floater and the defense went down with no contact. As our player continued toward the basket with his natural momentum his feet got caught up with the player on the floor and ended up hitting the deck pretty hard. I think that is why the ref made the T call because he felt the flop endangered our player otherwise he would probably have let it go. The other coach was incensed because he did not know that was a rule.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Blatant flopping is considered 'unsportsmanlike' and can result it a 'T'. It happened in a game of mine earlier this year when a kid stepped in to take a charge and the offensive player pulled up for a 10-footer. The defender fell straight back despite there being a 5-foot gap between the two.

TWEET! My partner, a crew-cut military type, didn't hesitate.
Kudos to your partner on calling the obvious one with a 5 foot gap.

Yes, I should have known it was in the rule book, but considering how many times I have seen it called (ZERO) it is easy to forget. When flopping jerseys barely brush and a kid tries to earn an academy award with their flop, it needs to be whistled. Or when a college player does a head jerk like he just got rear ended in his smart car by a semi doing 50 mph, it should be whistled.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:48 PM
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Old 04-25-2018, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by IAFlyer View Post
I can't believe I finally got one right...
My first YMtC was May 18, 2011 so congrats on your first correct call! That makes you 1/61. Yes, I've done 61 YMtCs.

Which leaves Clayton and Figgie as the only 0-fers that remain. Don't worry fellas, I'm not going anywhere so you'll have a few more chances.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
As long as you're in a legal defensive position, whether you are facing your opponent or not doesn't matter. In this case, the boxout occurs with the arms straight up, which is legal. The use of the chest is natural, and since he doesn't use his hands to create space, the move is legal. The fact that the offensive player falls down (flops) has nothing to do with anything but you see it so often - at every level - I had to include it.

Therefore, the proper call is 'no tweet'.
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
My first YMtC was May 18, 2011 so congrats on your first correct call! That makes you 1/61. Yes, I've done 61 YMtCs.

Which leaves Clayton and Figgie as the only 0-fers that remain. Don't worry fellas, I'm not going anywhere so you'll have a few more chances.

Nice try ACE, but you did not even get your call right in the example above, as you acknowledge the guy flopped, then say "no tweet", when if you were going by the flopping rules you later posted you should have T'd up the flopper!

Game, set, match to Clayton!
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Mad Props to ClaytonFlyerFan For This Totally Excellent Post:
IAFlyer (04-26-2018)
  #27  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Nice try ACE, but you did not even get your call right in the example above, as you acknowledge the guy flopped, then say "no tweet", when if you were going by the flopping rules you later posted you should have T'd up the flopper!

Game, set, match to Clayton!
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