Why?

CE80 · #1 04-02-2017, 07:04 PM

Why was there no home and home with the school he went to in Archie's contract?
Why was there no buyout?

Somebody is going to respond that he had 3 schools he could go to with no penalty or home and home agreement.

Then why was his contract extended with additional salary? What did the school get in return? Did Archie give off the impression if he was paid more he would stick around or did those on the school side just hope by paying him more he would stick around?

Didn't OP have some type of deferred compensation program whereby some money was put into a fund each year and the longer he stayed, the more he would retain? Seems to me that would have been the way to go.

If anybody has a right to be ticked, it is the donors that ponied up the bucks to pay Archie more. Archie was a bargain initially but he was an unproven assistant. Once he proved himself, I can see giving him a big boost but after it was more than double? triple? what his contract stated, I would have wanted something in exchange for the big boost.

The Fly · #2 04-02-2017, 07:20 PM

We may not like it, but the more successful a coach is, the better his bargaining position. Archie has enough friends in the biz (Sean, Calipari) to know what to bring to the negotiating table. That's why things like incentive and buyout clauses were invented. And what we got in return was retention of a hot property for six years instead of, say, four.

I understand some fans wanting to re-litigate his contract, but isn't it wasted energy at this point?

UACFlyer · #3 04-02-2017, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Why was there no home and home with the school he went to in Archie's contract?
Why was there no buyout?

Somebody is going to respond that he had 3 schools he could go to with no penalty or home and home agreement.

Then why was his contract extended with additional salary? What did the school get in return? Did Archie give off the impression if he was paid more he would stick around or did those on the school side just hope by paying him more he would stick around?

Didn't OP have some type of deferred compensation program whereby some money was put into a fund each year and the longer he stayed, the more he would retain? Seems to me that would have been the way to go.

If anybody has a right to be ticked, it is the donors that ponied up the bucks to pay Archie more. Archie was a bargain initially but he was an unproven assistant. Once he proved himself, I can see giving him a big boost but after it was more than double? triple? what his contract stated, I would have wanted something in exchange for the big boost.

It's surprising if there was no form of compensation, e.g., a buy-out that decreases with time is common. At a minimum, a home-and-home series with the school he goes to....at a minimum. By the way, how do we know there was no buy-out? As a private school doesn't UD keep the terms of contracts private?

CE80 · #4 04-02-2017, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Fly

We may not like it, but the more successful a coach is, the better his bargaining position. Archie has enough friends in the biz (Sean, Calipari) to know what to bring to the negotiating table. That's why things like incentive and buyout clauses were invented. And what we got in return was retention of a hot property for six years instead of, say, four.

I understand some fans wanting to re-litigate his contract, but isn't it wasted energy at this point?

If there wasn't energy to be wasted, UD Pride would not exist.

I am curious as to the negotiation details. Was UD really concerned about Archie leaving for less than the elite job like IU? Did Archie leverage each year's success? I always had the impression the administration always initiate the renegotiation. What did UD get out of it each time?

When all is said and done, Archie left after 1 full recruiting cycle. His success during that cycle allowed him to jump to the job he just took. I think in all the giddiness of his success, he was given some increases that really weren't necessary because he was leaving anyway.

UACFlyer · #5 04-02-2017, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

If there wasn't energy to be wasted, UD Pride would not exist.

I am curious as to the negotiation details. Was UD really concerned about Archie leaving for less than the elite job like IU? Did Archie leverage each year's success? I always had the impression the administration always initiate the renegotiation. What did UD get out of it each time?

When all is said and done, Archie left after 1 full recruiting cycle. His success during that cycle allowed him to jump to the job he just took. I think in all the giddiness of his success, he was given some increases that really weren't necessary because he was leaving anyway.

Right, being a smart guy, Neil was 100% certain that AM would leave for another job.....a top-tier, high profile job and a big pay increase. The only question was "when?"

That being the case, while bumping a very successful coaches pay so he's assured that UD "loves" him, it was incumbent upon Neil to have structured a contract of maximum protection and benefit to the University. There must have been a buy-out.

FlyingArrow · #6 04-02-2017, 08:28 PM

Are we certain that there was no home-and-home in the contract? Even if there is one, there's a good chance that it's deferred at least 4 years so that Archie wouldn't have to coach against his own players.

CE80 · #7 04-02-2017, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

Right, being a smart guy, Neil was 100% certain that AM would leave for another job.....a top-tier, high profile job and a big pay increase. The only question was "when?"

That being the case, while bumping a very successful coaches pay so he's assured that UD "loves" him, it was incumbent upon Neil to have structured a contract of maximum protection and benefit to the University. There must have been a buy-out.

You would think but we have some insiders her on UD Pride and I have not heard a peep. I would think that is something that would leak out.

m21eagle45 · #8 04-02-2017, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow

Are we certain that there was no home-and-home in the contract? Even if there is one, there's a good chance that it's deferred at least 4 years so that Archie wouldn't have to coach against his own players.

Yes, Neil has already said there was no home and home in Archie's contract.

UDDoug · #9 04-02-2017, 08:45 PM

I think Neil answered the home and home issue with a no.

As to the buyout, there was one. But Archie included IU as one where he did not have to pay. OSU was another. Not sure who the third was.

These are common terms n high level coaching contracts. The coach has leverage. Neil could present Archie with a six year extension, a $4 million buyout and no exception. Archie just says appreciate it, but not signing it. I want three exceptions to the buyout or I will just let the current deal run its course.

Same for the home and home. If Archie doesn't want to bring his team back to UD he just says no thanks.

The school has no leverage when trying to extend a coach in high demand.

Contracts in this biusiness protect the coach, not the school.

UACFlyer · #10 04-02-2017, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

You would think but we have some insiders her on UD Pride and I have not heard a peep. I would think that is something that would leak out.

While specifics of UD contracts are confidential, I see no reason why Neil would not answer with a simple "yes" or "no" if asked about a buy out. Chris?

CT Flyer · #11 04-02-2017, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

I think Neil answered the home and home issue with a no.

As to the buyout, there was one. But Archie included IU as one where he did not have to pay. OSU was another. Not sure who the third was.

These are common terms n high level coaching contracts. The coach has leverage. Neil could present Archie with a six year extension, a $4 million buyout and no exception. Archie just says appreciate it, but not signing it. I want three exceptions to the buyout or I will just let the current deal run its course.

Same for the home and home. If Archie doesn't want to bring his team back to UD he just says no thanks.

The school has no leverage when trying to extend a coach in high demand.

Contracts in this biusiness protect the coach, not the school.

I have heard that there is no home and home from media sources but has it definitively been stated by someone not on this board that there was no buyout?

CE80 · #12 04-02-2017, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by UDDoug

I think Neil answered the home and home issue with a no.

As to the buyout, there was one. But Archie included IU as one where he did not have to pay. OSU was another. Not sure who the third was.

These are common terms n high level coaching contracts. The coach has leverage. Neil could present Archie with a six year extension, a $4 million buyout and no exception. Archie just says appreciate it, but not signing it. I want three exceptions to the buyout or I will just let the current deal run its course.

Same for the home and home. If Archie doesn't want to bring his team back to UD he just says no thanks.

The school has no leverage when trying to extend a coach in high demand.

Contracts in this biusiness protect the coach, not the school.

Then why extend the contract? I recall Archie's contract being extended multiple times and for a term that seemed longer than really would matter.

m21eagle45 · #13 04-02-2017, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Then why extend the contract? I recall Archie's contract being extended multiple times and for a term that seemed longer than really would matter.

Then he would have left 3 years earlier when there was no buyout and schools like Florida came calling.

CT Flyer · #14 04-02-2017, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Then he would have left 3 years earlier when there was no buyout and schools like Florida came calling.

Why wouldn't there be a buyout from the first contract?

FLYER5 · #15 04-02-2017, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

Right, being a smart guy, Neil was 100% certain that AM would leave for another job.....a top-tier, high profile job and a big pay increase. The only question was "when?"

That being the case, while bumping a very successful coaches pay so he's assured that UD "loves" him, it was incumbent upon Neil to have structured a contract of maximum protection and benefit to the University. There must have been a buy-out.

Hark, the Herald Angels sing!!! The only ones that didn't see it were Priders

CE80 · #16 04-02-2017, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by m21eagle45

Then he would have left 3 years earlier when there was no buyout and schools like Florida came calling.

I am not talking about every extension. The last contract ran through 2023. That's 6 more years.

There was a point that Archie had a good contract but money and extensions were still being given to him. Those are the ones I question.

shocka43 · #17 04-02-2017, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

You would think but we have some insiders her on UD Pride and I have not heard a peep. I would think that is something that would leak out.

Many of those insiders are probably publicly known as well...and the last place that the insiders are going to divulge information, given to them in confidence, is on a message board.

AM's compensation, benefits, conditions of contract, buyouts, fringe benefits, endorsement money, etc....isn't public, and what does become public on financial documents is only a portion of total compensation. The only way that many will even know that there is/was a buyout on anyone's contract is if the coach is hired by an institution that is required to make these items public.

People also have to understand, that there are two sides to contract negotiations. And in this case, a school like UD bargaining with a hot coach like AM...AM has the upperhand at the table. This isn't a case of UD walking into the room and telling Archie what he is getting and what the terms are. This is a case of AM pretty much walking in and writing a contract.

AM is smart not to have a home-home written into a legal document. The last thing he wants to do is negotiate away the rights of his future employer. Basically, AM gets to have a lucrative contract, written with amicable terms leaning in his favor. If he doesn't get it, he would have no problem getting a lucrative contract elsewhere. UD wants a person bad enough, they are going to write a contract that retains that employee until said employee wants to beat feet. AM is/was/will be in the driver's seat with his contracts. Grant will be in the same boat if he wins at UD. He will get the same benefits and lucrative contracts that lean in his favor.

It's time to move on. UD did what they needed to do and there wasn't anything else they could have done that would have kept AM here or strengthened their position forcing him to stay longer.

TommyGola · #18 04-02-2017, 09:33 PM

After reading all of the above information on contracts and buyouts, it cements in my mind that Anthony Grant is the perfect Flyer coach. I truly believe he views this as a destination position and that he can raise the level of the program several more notches over his tenure here. Archie did a superb job with what he had with defections and injuries, but he was never going to consider UD as a destination job. Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell, and Brian Gregory all had the same feelings toward the job - it was a stepping stone. The first was a complete failure; the second left and failed in subsequent jobs; and the third failed in his next job. I wish them all well, but at this point, I couldn't be happier than having Anthony Grant as our coach. The three aforementioned coaches, along with Archie, have moved on and Archie may be the only one to succeed post-Dayton. As mentioned on this board, on the day Archie's announcement was made, I sent Neil Sullivan an email suggesting Anthony Grant was the right guy. I remain committed to that. In fact, I will take Anthony over any of our last four coaches every day of the week.

FLYER5 · #19 04-02-2017, 09:36 PM

Best summation of the 'sh!t sandwich we all have to take a bite of' that I've read! Great post, Shocka.

CE80 · #20 04-02-2017, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by FLYER5

Best summation of the 'sh!t sandwich we all have to take a bite of' that I've read! Great post, Shocka.

Sh!t sandwich? I don't agree with that. It is what it is. I am very happy to have Anthony Grant as our new head coach. I am appreciate the good times we enjoyed with Archie Miller as the head coach but I am not ready to lead a parade or erect a statue in his honor.

Okay. I will move on now (unless something else is posted that I just cant't hold back from commenting on.)

shocka43 · #21 04-02-2017, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Sh!t sandwich? I don't agree with that. It is what it is. I am very happy to have Anthony Grant as our new head coach. I am appreciate the good times we enjoyed with Archie Miller as the head coach but I am not ready to lead a parade or erect a statue in his honor.

Okay. I will move on now (unless something else is posted that I just cant't hold back from commenting on.)

Haha.

Some want a statue. I don't. I see the good that he did for UD hoops, but he earned the statue by being here longer and doing more. He did quite a bit with what he had.

Grant takes over a program that is in really good shape. A program that has good, forward thinking, leaders in place to include the coach and administration. Regardless of what the recruits decide to do, the UD brand and reputation is pretty good right now. Even if the recruits go out the door and Grant has slim pickings for a year or two, he has a greater ability to keep the momentum.

FLYER5 · #22 04-02-2017, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Sh!t sandwich? I don't agree with that. It is what it is. I am very happy to have Anthony Grant as our new head coach. I am appreciate the good times we enjoyed with Archie Miller as the head coach but I am not ready to lead a parade or erect a statue in his honor.

Okay. I will move on now (unless something else is posted that I just cant't hold back from commenting on.)

Dude!?! I made no reference to AG being a show pony like you're assuming. It is a movie reference (full Metal jacket) that applies to the disruption of the status quo. Don't put words in my mouth please. Just chill aight

CT Flyer · #23 04-03-2017, 07:47 AM

I never realized that the coach wrote the entire contract and the school just subserviently signed on the dotted line. How do all of these other schools get buyouts when their coaches leave?

Atlantic 10 · #24 04-03-2017, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I never realized that the coach wrote the entire contract and the school just subserviently signed on the dotted line. How do all of these other schools get buyouts when their coaches leave?

Buyouts work alot of ways. Archie had certain schools as non buyout schools ( dream coaching jobs) IU was one, Ohio State, and I believe Louisville. Now Archie had incentives built into his contract on performance. If the school was smart, he would get none of those incentives if not full filling his contract obligation. I could go on and on with different buyout options. But there are a few

UACFlyer · #25 04-03-2017, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I never realized that the coach wrote the entire contract and the school just subserviently signed on the dotted line. How do all of these other schools get buyouts when their coaches leave?

Buy-outs are common and agreed to by both parties, often with exceptions. Upon signing a juicy contract the buy-out clause might be something like this: $3 million during the first two years, then decreasing by $750K each year thereafter.

UConn recently fired a FB coach having a $5 million buy-out. He was fired in the Fall, effective Jan 1 after which the buy-out declined to $3.4 million. Get this. The coach was working under a "new" contract signed less than a year before being fired. The buy-out under the old contract was only $800K. A big, big mistake.

oldfan · #26 04-03-2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by CE80

If anybody has a right to be ticked, it is the donors that ponied up the bucks to pay Archie more. Archie was a bargain initially but he was an unproven assistant. Once he proved himself, I can see giving him a big boost but after it was more than double? triple? what his contract stated, I would have wanted something in exchange for the big boost.

Ticked? Archie gave them and us non ponying up slobs exactly what he was paid to do. He got the team in the tournament every year after the extension. He will not get paid next year by UD when he won't be getting the Flyers in the tournament.

I would say "OVERPAID" if he failed to get the team where we hoped it would be or if the University had to buy him out because he failed and would not leave otherwise. But Archie did what he was paid to do so no he was not overpaid.

DallasFlyer · #27 04-03-2017, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I never realized that the coach wrote the entire contract and the school just subserviently signed on the dotted line. How do all of these other schools get buyouts when their coaches leave?

It's very rare that a coach actually leaves for the school that is listed as buyout exempt. Think about it... While a coach may want to go to a particular school, the school that he would likely list in his contract as "an out" is typically one of the super elite jobs. Those jobs rarely come open and when they do, the chances of those schools actually wanting the guy who wrote them as his exemption is even rarer. It's just bad luck in one sense, but it depends how you look at it. Because if a coach leaves Dayton for that super elite job, that means he likely had extraordinary results, which Archie did. So at the end of the day, you absolutely take that success and don't complain about it.

CT Flyer · #28 04-03-2017, 10:29 AM

I get it but some on this board make it out that the coach just dictates all of his own terms and the school has no part of the negotiating process. If that was the case with AM then Neil is not as strong of an AD as we think he is.

steve · #29 04-03-2017, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer

It's very rare that a coach actually leaves for the school that is listed as buyout exempt. Think about it... While a coach may want to go to a particular school, the school that he would likely list in his contract as "an out" is typically one of the super elite jobs. Those jobs rarely come open and when they do, the chances of those schools actually wanting the guy who wrote them as his exemption is even rarer. It's just bad luck in one sense, but it depends how you look at it. Because if a coach leaves Dayton for that super elite job, that means he likely had extraordinary results, which Archie did. So at the end of the day, you absolutely take that success and don't complain about it.

I think you might be underestimating a bit the school that "said" coach either played at or had coached at, as well, in which he may have an "out" for. May not be an elite program but there's lots of circumstances that do come into play on what coaches put in /have put in their contract..Naturally, when/if a coach has tremendous success then he's certainly more prone to include more elite jobs but there's far more D1 coaches out there that are just pretty good to good coaches that may look to jump.

FLYER5 · #30 04-03-2017, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by oldfan

Ticked? Archie gave them and us non ponying up slobs exactly what he was paid to do. He got the team in the tournament every year after the extension. He will not get paid next year by UD when he won't be getting the Flyers in the tournament.

I would say "OVERPAID" if he failed to get the team where we hoped it would be or if the University had to buy him out because he failed and would not leave otherwise. But Archie did what he was paid to do so no he was not overpaid.

Brother CE80 is suffering like so many others who thought he would retire here. Time heals all wounds, brothers and sisters. Thank you for pointing out the man's integrity. Seems to have gotten lost here. Some people, and I'm not saying CE80 does, but some just have no respect, let alone appreciation. That's why I like to put nails to their chalkboard when I can. Blind

CE80 · #31 04-03-2017, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by FLYER5

Brother CE80 is suffering like so many others who thought he would retire here. Time heals all wounds, brothers and sisters. Thank you for pointing out the man's integrity. Seems to have gotten lost here. Some people, and I'm not saying CE80 does, but some just have no respect. That's why I'm bringing nails to their chalkboard when I can. Blind

You are way off base. You have no idea what I was or am thinking.

FLYER5 · #32 04-03-2017, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by CE80

You are way off base. You have no idea what I was or am thinking.

You're not seeing my attempt at humor here. I'm just rattling your cage, friend

FLYER5 · #33 04-03-2017, 11:37 AM

Just hard to see through blood
For you, that is..

FLYER5 · #34 04-03-2017, 11:58 AM

Amazing how easy it is to take these anonymous red pips

By all means keep them coming.

Smitty10 · #35 04-03-2017, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Then why extend the contract? I recall Archie's contract being extended multiple times and for a term that seemed longer than really would matter.

Let me take a crack at it. By giving AM all you can to try and retain him, he now has to take a closer look when the LSU's or programs like that come calling.

From AM's point of view maybe it's something like this:

Is it worth risking my time, my good reputation as a coach, my security to take a job at LSU? My ultimate goal is to coach at one of the blue blood basketball schools and I can stay at Dayton, with a great contract until one of those come calling. If the odds of landing snake eyes on a recruiting class catches up to to me, I will have time to correct it. 3 years at LSU and a firing due to an impatient fan base could totally destroy my dreams of ever coaching at a NC, Duke, Indiana, etc... or at least delay it while I try to find another job like Dayton.

Now, Dayton doesn't keep piling on the perks, the compensation etc... maybe it doesn't feel like I'm giving up as much when LSU comes calling. Maybe I'm being undervalued. If I'm at 1 million and LSU offers me 2.5 million and Dayton then matches it, do I really want to keep playing this song and dance? If LSU starts me out at that much of a higher amount, that must mean their ceiling is much higher and I won't have to keep finding others that will pay me more to get Dayton to raise me to fair level.

Dayton on the other hand is thinking that maybe there are only a handful of schools that will fill AM's dream job and of those job openings not all of those will target AM. At some point his dream job will open but we can't do anything about that. All we can do is to try everything in our power to keep him from taking small jumps to get there and only one very large one will do it.

UDDoug · #36 04-03-2017, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I get it but some on this board make it out that the coach just dictates all of his own terms and the school has no part of the negotiating process. If that was the case with AM then Neil is not as strong of an AD as we think he is.

They aren't going to agree to anything put in front of them. Neil isn't going to agree to 10X remaining contract value if terminated for cause. But market requests, such as naming X number of schools where the buyout does not apply, is market and would be granted.

It would not be terribly uncommon for the coach to have the right to name the X number of schools each year 60 days in advance of contract renewal - thereby ensuring the elite jobs they may prefer are the ones most likely to come open in the next year.

FLYER5 · #37 04-03-2017, 12:08 PM

WWRD?

shocka43 · #38 04-03-2017, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by CT Flyer

I get it but some on this board make it out that the coach just dictates all of his own terms and the school has no part of the negotiating process. If that was the case with AM then Neil is not as strong of an AD as we think he is.

Good coaches dictate quite a bit. Neil did everything in his power and he is very good at what he does.

FLYER5 · #39 04-04-2017, 07:22 PM

Seems like an appropriate thread title for this. Plus CE80 is my buddy

On the subject of anonymous rep pips:
Of all the ones I've gotten on this board I only ever recall one person signing their name to it. springborofan signed one because he has integrity. And my respect. He didn't receive one back in retaliation. I honestly don't care.
That tells me that it's the same few people every time that give the reputation an even worse name by not signing their name.
Originally I put this in the 'who's leaving' thread by mistake to answer maddog. Carry on
Edit: Brother CE80 just signed a green one with a message that I know is true. Thanks!

TXFlyerFan · #40 04-04-2017, 07:52 PM

Having lurked for years but only officially joined the forum in the past year, what are these red and green pips I see occasionally referenced. Assume they aren't good.

FLYER5 · #41 04-04-2017, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan

Having lurked for years but only officially joined the forum in the past year, what are these red and green pips I see occasionally referenced. Assume they aren't good.

The scale icon will let you give reputation to individual posts.