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Old 03-31-2017, 07:43 AM
steve steve is offline
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Archie vs. AG

While most are very supportive of this hire there are naysayers (and that's okay) that have already pegged this a failure. Grant was terrible at Bama', too many terrible offensive possessions, stagnant,etc.

While I liked Archie alot and wish he was still here, let's not act like our own UD Flyers were some offensive juggernaut and especially in the half-court offense. I remember so many comments the past couple years prior to many games that UD needs to do "this/that" to win this game or "if we get into a half-court game" with such and such then "we could have our work cut out", etc..

The strength of UD the past few years was to get stops and get out and run. They needed the easy points. Let's face it, as much as I liked Kyle Davis and Pollard and would put them on any of my teams any day, these guys were never offensive-minded and skilled offensive players. They stifled the half-court offense plenty of games and when the UD defense was not playing well and guys weren't scoring out in transition UD could look like a hot flippin' mess of you-know-what.

Was the offense going to get better? I certainly believe it was but with not having a much-improved Big Steve around to sag defenses even more this year due to him probably learning how to stay on the court much longer minus the foul issues, once again, Archie worked his houdini-like magic as a coach to offset being behind the eight ball once again.

Archie was certainly becoming a great coach but more than anything it was a leadership he provided to never say never and continued the fight in his players who were stacked against the odds quite a bit with off-court/on-court issues these past 3 years.

Let's just reminder that before we talk about Grant and terrible offense..
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:16 AM
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As Archie developed, he became a well rounded coach.

His teams transformed from Excellent offensive skills, terrible defense to the opposite.

The intangible about Archie was the ability to win close games. Documented has been the number of very close games that went right way. There is a bit of luck involved, but when the number of close games turns into wins, you know there has to be more than luck.

I would also point out that Archie's system did improve the offensive skills. if they kept the same skills that they had when they came to UD, results would have been very different.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
As Archie developed, he became a well rounded coach.

His teams transformed from Excellent offensive skills, terrible defense to the opposite.

The intangible about Archie was the ability to win close games. Documented has been the number of very close games that went right way. There is a bit of luck involved, but when the number of close games turns into wins, you know there has to be more than luck.

I would also point out that Archie's system did improve the offensive skills. if they kept the same skills that they had when they came to UD, results would have been very different.
I'm an AM fan like no other. But those close games we give him all the credit for? How much was him and how much of it was the players like KD and SS stepping up and willing the team to victory? Not trying to take it all away from him but it seemed that when the game was close, we had players that were calm, stayed within themselves but also increased their intensity at the same time. It always seemed that the other team panicked more often and would jack up bad shots or miss point blank ones or throw the ball away. We had some very mature players at the guard spots that just knew what to do when it was crunch time more often than not.

I realize that he gets a lot of credit for the players he brought in and developed but without a Scoochie or Kyle out there, I doubt he could have counted on winning those as much. That's what made those two very special.

Some might argue that if he'd stayed one more season with the group he would've had next year, that winning percentage in close games would take a hit. I guess timing is everything because it's probably going to be AG that takes the hit instead.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I'm an AM fan like no other. But those close games we give him all the credit for? How much was him and how much of it was the players like KD and SS stepping up and willing the team to victory? Not trying to take it all away from him but it seemed that when the game was close, we had players that were calm, stayed within themselves but also increased their intensity at the same time. It always seemed that the other team panicked more often and would jack up bad shots or miss point blank ones or throw the ball away. We had some very mature players at the guard spots that just knew what to do when it was crunch time more often than not.

I realize that he gets a lot of credit for the players he brought in and developed but without a Scoochie or Kyle out there, I doubt he could have counted on winning those as much. That's what made those two very special.

Some might argue that if he'd stayed one more season with the group he would've had next year, that winning percentage in close games would take a hit. I guess timing is everything because it's probably going to be AG that takes the hit instead.
But, again, it is the coach that does settle players down and keeps the belief. I think if we're going to get on Archie (and many have) on why UD would always start off games against teams with a real heart-beat and get down by 15-18 points as UD did plenty this year then we need to credit him with making sure these players keep their resiliency thru-out a game and realize that it is 40 minutes..

And there's no doubt that with a real possible sub-par year next year preceded by 2 straight years losing in the 1st round of the NCAA tourney that some of the luster of Archie does wear off. Right or wrong it's real in plenty of cases..
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:43 AM
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The culture Archie created was key. I give credit to Devin Oliver, Scooch, KP, and KD as much as Archie.

AG has to keep that culture going. TRUETEAM

I think he will. Alabama is a no win situation. 1 losing season, 4 post seasons, 3 21+ win seasons isn't bad. His 1 losing season cost him his job. Archie went 17-14 in year two.

If Archie stayed I said we would be lucky to eclipse 20 wins next year. Assuming we lose some recruits, implement a new system - I expect we will still win 18-20 games next year. It was going to be rebuilding either way. Archie seemed to have some magic that always won us an extra 2-3 games somehow though. Hoping AG has some also.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:54 AM
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Miller recruited those four Seniors with an incredible will to win, and never allowed them to think otherwise. That's what allowed those many many tough last 5 minute wins. Not to mention the short handed and small-ball season.

The problem that seemed to creep into things in the last part of this season is we had an attitude of "We would like to win, but we sure as hell don't want to lose". That led to our early double digit deep holes, and then a superhuman effort to overcome the deficit and get a "W". Not the best approach, but it is what it was.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Miller recruited those four Seniors with an incredible will to win, and never allowed them to think otherwise. That's what allowed those many many tough last 5 minute wins.
Archie spoke about recruiting that type of player; the right fit. Often that can more important than Xs and Os.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:12 AM
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Would love to see the KenPom numbers (adj. Off. & Def.) for Anthony Grant's time at VCU and Bama.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:48 AM
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Let me start by saying I was an AM fan and appreciated the hard work he put in to bringing success to the program. He certainly moved us forward, no doubt. But, i'm not one who thinks he was a "great" coach (maybe down the road, but not during his years at Dayton), a word I have seen used to describe him on this board. His half court offense was certainly less than great, at times I would describe it as less than good. We were a high scoring team only when our defense led to offense. Our team was becoming known for slow starts, especially against lesser opponents. AM seemed helpless to correct that.

On the positive side AM hit a home run on the Smith-Davis-Pollard class. No other class he has recruited is even close to that class. He did hit on individual players in other classes. The S-D-P class along with his ability to land some really productive transfers was the key to his success. His teams were very good defensively, although again one could argue that success was due in large part to his home run in one recruiting class. I think he is a very good defensive coach, and he is good at developing talent.

How does that compare to AG? I don't know enough about him to have an opinion. I suspect we won't know that for 3 or 4 years. However, all indications are that AG is a high level recruiter. If you bring in better recruits year in and year out, one would have to believe the team performance will improve as well. Not really surprising, but great players seem to lead to coaches being referred to as great coaches. I think AG has the potential to move this program beyond where AM left us. I am going to do whatever I can as a fan to support him along the way.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Miller recruited those four Seniors with an incredible will to win, and never allowed them to think otherwise. That's what allowed those many many tough last 5 minute wins. Not to mention the short handed and small-ball season.

The problem that seemed to creep into things in the last part of this season is we had an attitude of "We would like to win, but we sure as hell don't want to lose". That led to our early double digit deep holes, and then a superhuman effort to overcome the deficit and get a "W". Not the best approach, but it is what it was.
Problem was we didn't always get the "W" when we fell down big early, see St. Mary's, Nebraska, NW, GW, Davidson, UMass.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:12 AM
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I thank Archie for all he did for the school and the team and wish him well. But Archie is gone and it is time to move forward.

I agree that Alabama was probably a no win situation. Alabama is and will always be a football school and state. AG is a basketball player, basketball coach and basketball guy.

We do not have to figure out who this guy is and what will be his style of play. We \ UD has accepted his pedigree and whatever his past accomplishments are and given him the opportunity, resources, support, fan base that I don't think he had or would ever have had at Alabama. He has come to a school that has a very nice campus, winning background, reputation, atmosphere, expectations and who has essentially said to him, continue our heritage, work on keeping the incoming recruits and take us to the next level.

Archie is a great memory but I think we should stop talking and agonizing over him leaving and support the new program.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer68 View Post
Archie is a great memory but I think we should stop talking and agonizing over him leaving and support the new program.
What is it with this board and posters determining what topics are to be discussed? Don't click on the thread if you don't like the subject!
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Problem was we didn't always get the "W" when we fell down big early, see St. Mary's, Nebraska, NW, GW, Davidson, UMass.
That can be a bit of a selective memory. The team won lots of close games; not just last year but over the course of 4 years. There were wins such as Rhode Island where the team was losing with seconds left.

The first three losses this year were to big physical teams with a depleted front line.

Archie had to play with shorthanded lineups quite often during his tenure. We sometime take for granted the wins.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
That can be a bit of a selective memory. The team won lots of close games; not just last year but over the course of 4 years. There were wins such as Rhode Island where the team was losing with seconds left.

The first three losses this year were to big physical teams with a depleted front line.

Archie had to play with shorthanded lineups quite often during his tenure. We sometime take for granted the wins.
I don't take any of the wins for granted and I think Archie was a great coach. I'm just pointing out that he did have some times when he wasn't god and the falling down big early was a problem in my opinion that often times got overlooked because we did come back and win many if them. If he stayed it was certainly one of the problems he was going to have to fix next year.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:01 AM
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No coach is God. I think he has a very weak upper class coming back. He was not perfect. I just believe he overachieved a lot.

Anthony will have a real challenge ahead of him.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:01 AM
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Offense under Archie according to kenpom.

2012 = 29
2013 = 29
2014 = 36
2015 = 74
2016 = 146
2017 = 53

Defense under Archie
2012 = 158
2013 = 145
2014 = 72
2015 = 31
2016= 15
2017 =43

Steady regression in offense and steady progression with defense (of course ups and downs). Major issue with offense has been lack of offensive rebounds which is understandable due to lack of big man, but also is a result of the defensive first philosophy.

And BTW, I think Archie will prove to be a top 10 coach at Indiana. His lack of big men killed Dayton on offensive rebounding (and to a lesser extent defensive rebounding). His system is great, his attention to detail is great, the players run through walls for him, etc. Within 4 years, Archie will have a top 10 kenpom team with a top 10 defense and a top 20 offense.

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Old 03-31-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Miller recruited those four Seniors with an incredible will to win, and never allowed them to think otherwise. That's what allowed those many many tough last 5 minute wins. Not to mention the short handed and small-ball season.
I think ^^ is really the thing. I believe Archie is a GREAT coach, he deserves a ton of credit for recruiting the right guys, coaching them up (development) and creating a winning culture. But losing those seniors, was going to be Archie's biggest test. Had he stayed, could he have kept the momentum?

As we all know the margin for success is razor thin. One of our tournament runs almost didn't happen as we were THE LAST team in.

So how did Archie do it? Well, he found a gem in Dyshawn Pierre, then hit the lottery with the Kyle Davis, Scoochie, Kendall Pollard class. He also pulled in some nice transfers along the way: Jordan Sibert, Charles Cooke and Josh Cunningham. But Scooch, Davis and Pollard are really the very core of his success, and I think the jury is still out on whether Archie can keep winning when it comes time to replace that core. The hope was that this incoming class (along with potential developing stars in Kostas and XW) would be that.

I'm hopeful those recruits come so that we will get to see whether Archie had found that next core (meaning Anthony would keep and develop them), but one way or another both Anthony Grant at UD and Archie Miller at IU are going to have to find their next core of guys. They're going to need to find guys like Kendall, Kyle and Scooch capable of just willing their team to victory after victory.

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Old 03-31-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
I think ^^ is really the thing. I believe Archie is a GREAT coach, he deserves a ton of credit for recruiting the right guys, coaching them up (development) and creating a winning culture. But losing those seniors, was going to be Archie's biggest test. Had he stayed, could he have kept the momentum?

As we all know the margin for success is razor thin. One of our tournament runs almost didn't happen as we were THE LAST team in.

So how did Archie do it? Well, he found a gem in Dyshawn Pierre, then hit the lottery with the Kyle Davis, Scoochie, Kendall Pollard class. He also pulled in some nice transfers along the way: Jordan Sibert, Charles Cooke and Josh Cunningham. But Scooch, Davis and Pollard are really the very core of his success, and I think the jury is still out on whether Archie can keep winning when it comes time to replace that core. The hope was that this incoming class (along with potential developing stars in Kostas and XW) would be that.

I'm hopeful those recruits come so that we will get to see whether Archie had found that next core (meaning Anthony would keep and develop them), but one way or another both Anthony Grant at UD and Archie Miller at IU are going to have to find their next core of guys. They're going to need to find guys like Kendall, Kyle and Scooch capable of just willing their team to victory after victory.
I don't disagree with anything you said, Dallas, and I think the senior class deserves all the credit it gets. Phenomenal group with outstanding results.

But success only comes with opportunity. I fully expect(ed) the sophomore class to take a big step forward in 2017-2018. Outside of Xeryius, none look like a sure thing, but it's hard to gauge talent when minutes are limited and a mistake means checking back out of the game. The outgoing senior class had run of the roost from sophomore year on - and to their credit, they ran with it - but the point being they had the opportunity to be successful. We won't really know what we have in Mikesell, Crosby, Miller and Landers until they get some consistent minutes and the chance to prove themselves.

Also, Archie is a dynamite tactician and developer of talent. He puts his players in positions to succeed. Nobody should ever doubt this. He did regularly in his time in Dayton, even when dealt a bad hand (Scott/Robinson getting booted, Steve's tragic death, Pierre's suspension, etc.).

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Old 03-31-2017, 11:50 AM
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Flyer016, totally agree. Zero question marks about Archie's ability as a tactician and developer of talent. Still fair to question his recruiting. Early returns were that he hit on enough to be very successful at UD, but he really needed to hit on a high percentage with the incoming class. Should he fail at Indiana, recruiting will be his undoing.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by flyer016 View Post
I don't disagree with anything you said, Dallas, and I think the senior class deserves all the credit it gets. Phenomenal group with outstanding results.

But success only comes with opportunity. I fully expect(ed) the sophomore class to take a big step forward in 2017-2018. Outside of Xeryius, none look like a sure thing, but it's hard to gauge talent when minutes are limited and a mistake means checking back out of the game. The outgoing senior class had run of the roost from sophomore year on - and to their credit, they ran with it - but the point being they had the opportunity to be successful. We won't really know what we have in Mikesell, Crosby, Miller and Landers until they get some consistent minutes and the chance to prove themselves.

There's quite a dichotomy in what you're saying when you use both expect and expected. Also, Archie is a dynamite tactician and developer of talent. He puts his players in positions to succeed. Nobody should ever doubt this. He did regularly in his time in Dayton, even when dealt a bad hand (Scott/Robinson getting booted, Steve's tragic death, Pierre's suspension, etc.).

There's quite a dichotomy in what you're saying when you use both "expect" and "expected" of this soph. class. On the flip, I think consistent minutes were limited simply because these guys were given a chance and their weaknesses were exposed consistently...There does become a fine line between developing what ya got now and what you're going to need going forward and risking the needed W's to realize a resent goal.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
But, again, it is the coach that does settle players down and keeps the belief. I think if we're going to get on Archie (and many have) on why UD would always start off games against teams with a real heart-beat and get down by 15-18 points as UD did plenty this year then we need to credit him with making sure these players keep their resiliency thru-out a game and realize that it is 40 minutes..

And there's no doubt that with a real possible sub-par year next year preceded by 2 straight years losing in the 1st round of the NCAA tourney that some of the luster of Archie does wear off. Right or wrong it's real in plenty of cases..
Just for the record, I didn't blame AM for the slow starts, I blamed the players so not giving all the credit for the close victories to him his consistent
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Flyer016, totally agree. Zero question marks about Archie's ability as a tactician and developer of talent. Still fair to question his recruiting. Early returns were that he hit on enough to be very successful at UD, but he really needed to hit on a high percentage with the incoming class. Should he fail at Indiana, recruiting will be his undoing.
I do think recruiting is an area where we'll see an uptick in the transition from Archie to Grant. Grant had the eighth best class in the country (according to 247 composite) in 2011 and two other top 30 classes. Resources and reputation are certainly different in Tuscaloosa and Dayton, but I think Grant will be able to pull more name (read: highly ranked) recruits.
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:15 PM
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Interesting article in today's Dayton Daily News. It was written by Marcus Hartman.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...jQvqsRU7SBd3K/

The end of the article talked about recruiting and compared UD to several good non P5 schools. Take with a grain of salt because the recruiting ratings can be very inexact after you get past the top players (5 star).



The story compared class rankings and sourced 247 Sports. The last 4 years, UD average class ranking was 84. That was ahead of Creighton (91.4), but behind Gonzaga (74), Butler (65.3) and X (54). It shows UD is in the range. It also stated this year's class is rated 110. I don't know how transfers (Cunningham), Big Steve, and Kostas fit into that.

The article goes on to rate classes and it shows that the other schools are going up in recruiting rank, while UD went down. X had classes is rated 17 and 28. Butler has 2 top 50 classes. Gonzaga 2016 class was rated 15th.

This shows how much the Big East has helped X and Butler.

Hartman states that UD is actually falling behind those programs.

Archie was an absolute master at overachieving with talent and being constantly shorthanded. His recruits were hit and miss. Great transfers in Sibert, Sanford, Cooke and Cunningham. Missed with Derenbecker, Rogers. He developed Sibert, Sandord and Cooke. Josh too hurt to understand progress.

Developed BG players, Kav and Oliver.

Great recruits in Pierre, Davis, Pollard and Scoochie. But then he also had Scott and Robinson and the current junior class. Scott was developing, but his character was a big issue. I think the junior class is weak even though there are two really good players, Williams and Cunningham.

Archie will have a great legacy, but his recruiting seemed to have struggled after this senior class. Perhaps some bad luck with his best players and the usual swing and misses.

Archie did more with less. It will be interesting to see what he does now that he can recruit higher rated players.

What will Anthony be able to do?
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:23 PM
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Not here to compare AM vs CAG.

One item that bothered me the last two years with Archie's teams has been the poor showing they had as a team at the end of each season.

In particular somewhat of a melt down this past season and the chemistry and game results last year. Yes they achieved NCAAt but played their worst ball in March. The first two NCAAt's where very much playing as one would hope in March.

I don't necessarily put the onus completely on Archie but he had a hard time with the team during both end of season runs. Not sure he had it figured out or was surprised that it happened to him twice in succession.

Hence the last two seasons were a letdown from my expectations.

(Note: They did play their hearts out against WSU. But the play leading to that was disappointing.)
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Not here to compare AM vs CAG.

One item that bothered me the last two years with Archie's teams has been the poor showing they had as a team at the end of each season.

In particular somewhat of a melt down this past season and the chemistry and game results last year. Yes they achieved NCAAt but played their worst ball in March. The first two NCAAt's where very much playing as one would hope in March.

I don't necessarily put the onus completely on Archie but he had a hard time with the team during both end of season runs. Not sure he had it figured out or was surprised that it happened to him twice in succession.

Hence the last two seasons were a letdown from my expectations.

(Note: They did play their hearts out against WSU. But the play leading to that was disappointing.)
Waiting on Smitty to come blame it on Cooke after this post.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:33 PM
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I'm not going to "blame it on Cooke", but I will say that Archie's offense was noticeably different in these past 2-3 years as compared to how it was in the Elite Eight season, and even the Magnificent Seven season.

Back then, there was crisp passing, a lot of ball movement, and an objective of finding the open man. Lately, though, there was a lot more 1-on-1, more isolation plays, and (GASP!) even some Weave. Regardless of why Archie did it, it was obvious that the new style was far less effective than the old "motion offense" style that he ran the first 3-4 years here.

Why did he do it? To showcase Cooke? To get the most out of Scoochie? Because we didn't have as many "shooters" as we had earlier in his tenure? Who knows? But he did do it. But that's all in the past now. And, to quote a certain former Secretary of State, "At this point, what difference does it make?"
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:59 PM
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I doubt it was to showcase Cooke. More likely just a lack of consistent outside shooting and lack of big men, that led to more isolation plays.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I'm not going to "blame it on Cooke", but I will say that Archie's offense was noticeably different in these past 2-3 years as compared to how it was in the Elite Eight season, and even the Magnificent Seven season.

Back then, there was crisp passing, a lot of ball movement, and an objective of finding the open man. Lately, though, there was a lot more 1-on-1, more isolation plays, and (GASP!) even some Weave. Regardless of why Archie did it, it was obvious that the new style was far less effective than the old "motion offense" style that he ran the first 3-4 years here.

Why did he do it? To showcase Cooke? To get the most out of Scoochie? Because we didn't have as many "shooters" as we had earlier in his tenure? Who knows? But he did do it. But that's all in the past now. And, to quote a certain former Secretary of State, "At this point, what difference does it make?"
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This past season was different. Because of very unfortunate circumstances we were playing guys out of position. Without true post in JC we just struggled. I am not going to completely blame it Cooke. I will say of all players we've had in the Arch system he went outside the system more anyone else we ever had. Inside Out doesn't only apply to recruiting. I think this had a far bigger impact on the offense than Cooke. As for Schoocie I wish he asserted himself more often than he did.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Miller recruited those four Seniors with an incredible will to win, and never allowed them to think otherwise. That's what allowed those many many tough last 5 minute wins. Not to mention the short handed and small-ball season.

The problem that seemed to creep into things in the last part of this season is we had an attitude of "We would like to win, but we sure as hell don't want to lose". That led to our early double digit deep holes, and then a superhuman effort to overcome the deficit and get a "W". Not the best approach, but it is what it was.
Very well said. I'm stopping now with my finger-pointing. It's time to get on board and I am. I even promise not to bump threads later if things don't go well Go Flyers!
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Flyer016, totally agree. Zero question marks about Archie's ability as a tactician and developer of talent. Still fair to question his recruiting. Early returns were that he hit on enough to be very successful at UD, but he really needed to hit on a high percentage with the incoming class. Should he fail at Indiana, recruiting will be his undoing.
Strongly disagree. Archie has the eye for talent. I predict his classes won't get a lot of nat'l recognition from the ratings services. But his teams will beat those that do. You know it will happen, Dal
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Old 04-01-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Within 4 years, Archie will have a top 10 kenpom team with a top 10 defense and a top 20 offense.

I absolutely think Archie can make multiple Final Fours at IU.

Just hopefully they won't be vacated like his Uncle John's were...
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:04 PM
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Old 04-02-2017, 05:00 AM
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Former Flyer JD Grigsby with the revealing statement about Anthony grant and Archie Miller: “That’s why I thought we needed some 45 to 50. Someone who is not using the university as a farm team to better themselves. I think this is a guy who will be committed and help us soar forward.”

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think Archie leaving will forever kind of taint his legacy here as a coach. He was really the first coach since Don Donoher that fully embraced being the head coach of the Dayton Flyers, and alternatively being fully embraced by the Flyer Faithful. I feel that that may be gone now.
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:52 AM
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Earl, considering how The Reverend has comported himself over the past decade-plus as a visible supporter of our Flyers, that's a pretty scathing remark. It's obvious that Archie's departure has ticked him off. He's not simply upset: he's mad.

On the side of Archie's legacy, it's hard to say how this departure will impact it. I look at the prominent coaches in all sports who have used UD as a springboard to "bigger & better", and the fan reaction is really a bit of a mixed bag. In BG's case, the most common reaction was "great guy, great representative, but he had peaked anyway as a coach." For OP, it's more of a case of "He mailed-in the Tulsa game" combined with "Thanks for getting us out of the JOB canyon". For Horsmon, it's kind of a combination of "Welcome back" and "Grass wasn't all that green, was it?" And in the case of the late Rick Carter, the feeling after a 14-0 season capped by the 63-0 beat down of Ithaca was "If he kept that up, we wouldn't have been able to keep him here anyway".

A lot will depend on the degree of success Archie has at IU. If he simply gets them in the tourney with an occasional Sweet Sixteen or Elite Eight appearance, then the reaction will probably be more like "Man, you could have done that here!". If he meets his goal and wins one or more championships, then it'll be a mixture of "Man, what could have been!" coupled with some vicarious satisfaction that "our coach" won the title. In the unlikely event that he flames out like Groce did recently at Illinois and Lickliter did years ago at Iowa, I'm sure Dr. Schaedenfruede will be a frequent visitor to this board.

Just 1 person's thoughts.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Former Flyer JD Grigsby with the revealing statement about Anthony grant and Archie Miller: “That’s why I thought we needed some 45 to 50. Someone who is not using the university as a farm team to better themselves. I think this is a guy who will be committed and help us soar forward.”
Didn't OP and BG do the exact same thing? Seems like it is very unfair to pick on Archie and single him out for doing the exact same thing that the previous 2 head coaches did.

People are only mad at Archie because they know that Archie was a great coach, and we lost him, and we wanted him to stay here.

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Old 04-02-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Didn't OP and BG do the exact same thing? Seems like it is very unfair to pick on Archie and single him out for doing the exact same thing that the previous 2 head coaches did.

People are only mad at Archie because they know that Archie was a great coach, and we lost him, and we wanted him to stay here.
Everyone probably has a different view on this, but I think it was a combination of how good a coach Archie is and how he carried himself about the Dayton job. About how special the job is. About him saying that he would be here as long as Dayton wanted him. And then he leaves. I don't think many people were hurt when OP or Gregory left, this one does hurt.

And in all reality, Archie has a legacy. He took the team to the final eight. Nine NCAA games in four years. For some that legacy will be tainted.

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Old 04-02-2017, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Former Flyer JD Grigsby with the revealing statement about Anthony grant and Archie Miller: “That’s why I thought we needed some 45 to 50. Someone who is not using the university as a farm team to better themselves. I think this is a guy who will be committed and help us soar forward.”

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think Archie leaving will forever kind of taint his legacy here as a coach. He was really the first coach since Don Donoher that fully embraced being the head coach of the Dayton Flyers, and alternatively being fully embraced by the Flyer Faithful. I feel that that may be gone now.
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I really do not like JD's quote. The problem is not the fact that our coaches leave, the problem is that UD is not a destination job.

UD should hire the best head coach possible. Limiting the pool of candidates to someone aged 45 to 50, because you think that will mean that they will never leave, is absolutely the wrong approach to take IMO.

Such an approach will lead to sub-optimal results IMO.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I really do not like JD's quote. The problem is not the fact that our coaches leave, the problem is that UD is not a destination job.

UD should hire the best coach possible. Limiting the pool of candidates to someone aged 45 to 50, because you think that will mean that they will never leave, is absolutely the wrong approach to take IMO.

Such an approach will lead to sub-optimal results IMO.
I think his point is that he would prefer to see an established winning coach. Not an assistant in their 30s. Many higher end destination type jobs do not hire the up-and-coming assistants. There's too much risk involved with it. It's best to hire established coaches. I think that is the point trying to be made here. And I think we made a perfect hirer.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
I think his point is that he would prefer to see an established winning coach. Not an assistant in their 30s. Many higher end destination type jobs do not hire the up-and-coming assistants. There's too much risk involved with it. It's best to hire established coaches. I think that is the point trying to be made here. And I think we made a perfect hirer.
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Or someone who's a wee bit stubborn, has massive pride/ego, sibling rivalry, and missing a few life experiences to know what he...sorry or she, has....cough cough

Grant was the right hire.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:17 AM
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The irony of a coach who uses the programs as a stepping stone is results and ambition.

The only way a coach can use UD as a stepping stone is if they are successful. The more successful, the better the next job. Archie brought the first A10 outright title, 4 straight NCAA appearances. If he delivered much less, then Indiana would not have opened up.

Is that bad? Raising the ambitions and results of the program?
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I really do not like JD's quote. The problem is not the fact that our coaches leave, the problem is that UD is not a destination job.

UD should hire the best head coach possible. Limiting the pool of candidates to someone aged 45 to 50, because you think that will mean that they will never leave, is absolutely the wrong approach to take IMO.

Such an approach will lead to sub-optimal results IMO.
You still haven't said who you think would be better (unless I missed it). A coach who went 52-71 in the MAC, a coach who had one good season in the Horizon League, an untested, high risk assistant?
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Old 04-02-2017, 10:31 AM
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OP did not mail in the Tulsa game. OP didn't play in the game. Wally,Ramod,Shark Finn and Brooks did.

Tulsa kicked our ass up and down the court. Period
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Old 04-02-2017, 10:51 AM
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At this point in time for the UD men's basketball program, I'm not sure how anyone can have so little faith in them to find the best candidate for the job, and, how they can be so disappointed in the hiring of such an outstanding individual and coach. I haven't been this excited about a new coach since Donoher got fired. I went from being angry at Miller for conning us all, into being downright giddy about Grant. His press conference just cemented it. Talk about being dazzled.

IMO, Miller leaving may just have been a blessing in disguise. When Grant speaks of his love for Flyer basketball and the University, I believe him. I think he's going to do great things as it's head coach.
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Old 04-02-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
At this point in time for the UD men's basketball program, I'm not sure how anyone can have so little faith in them to find the best candidate for the job, and, how they can be so disappointed in the hiring of such an outstanding individual and coach. I haven't been this excited about a new coach since Donoher got fired. I went from being angry at Miller for conning us all, into being downright giddy about Grant. His press conference just cemented it. Talk about being dazzled.

IMO, Miller leaving may just have been a blessing in disguise. When Grant speaks of his love for Flyer basketball and the University, I believe him. I think he's going to do great things as it's head coach.
And, great chance it really is a destination job for him. Great at VCU. ****ty at Alabama. Bet he learned something from that.

In AG i trust.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:14 AM
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The biggest problem with trying to judge Archie now is that the time frame is too short. JOB took the flyers to the NCAA his first year but then again that was with a team that had three years of learning how to play basketball under Donoher. Nevertheless, if after the first year, JOB was rated, he would have been rated very high.

Archie appears to be a great coach in his last four years. Use the turnaround in January 4 years ago when prior to that the many of the fans were looking to run him out of town. But those four years also include four years of Kyle Davis, a guard who did more with his talent than I would suspect even Archie thought possible when he was recruited. And four years of Scoochie and four years of Pollard.

The test for determining whether Archie was a great coach or not would not be determinable until he could put lightning in a bottle a second time. Then we could say it was not some skill and some luck coming together and not knowing how much of which and instead seeing it as pure skill. But it will be Indiana that will have to see what the answer is to that question.

Six years is time enough to know that he was a good coach but not enough time to know if he is a great coach.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:20 AM
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Archie proved he was a great coach three separate times. The first was when he turned the team around and took them to the elite 8 after starting the conference 1-5. The second time, and maybe most impressive, was when he played a whole season with 6 scholarship players and none over 6'6" and made it to the third round of the tourney. And then this past season, having lost his promising 7 foot shot-blocking center, followed soon after by his only other true rebounder and big man and somehow still produced an A10 champion and a gawdy record.

The guy has made miracles happen. He's a tremendous coach. And that was a tremendous class of kids that just graduated.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
And, great chance it really is a destination job for him. Great at VCU. ****ty at Alabama. Bet he learned something from that.

In AG i trust.
While Grant was not great at Alabama, I'm not sure why his time there is considered ****ty. What JOB did to Dayton was ****ty. AG was average at worst at Alabama. Can we please stop classifying his time there as ****ty please.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
The irony of a coach who uses the programs as a stepping stone is results and ambition.

The only way a coach can use UD as a stepping stone is if they are successful. The more successful, the better the next job. Archie brought the first A10 outright title, 4 straight NCAA appearances. If he delivered much less, then Indiana would not have opened up.

Is that bad? Raising the ambitions and results of the program?
Guess Archie had less ambitions or results focused than the Gonzaga, Wichita State, a couple big east team coaches. To be a top 10 paid coach with all that Dayton has to offer? Maybe he got out quick like a sales rep that moves into management or takes a lateral move because of forecasted challenges. I am tired of talking about little brother little man syndrome Archie.

Grant gets it. Incredibly grateful he's on board.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:09 PM
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By ****ty i meant the situation. Football is king at Alabama. Basketball is a total after thought. he had some decent teams and players while he was there. Anthony Grant in a vacuum was a success at Alabama in my opinion. Basketball is king and drives the boat at VCU. i worded my original post poorly
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Former Flyer JD Grigsby with the revealing statement about Anthony grant and Archie Miller: “That’s why I thought we needed some 45 to 50. Someone who is not using the university as a farm team to better themselves. I think this is a guy who will be committed and help us soar forward.”

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think Archie leaving will forever kind of taint his legacy here as a coach. He was really the first coach since Don Donoher that fully embraced being the head coach of the Dayton Flyers, and alternatively being fully embraced by the Flyer Faithful. I feel that that may be gone now.
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Great post. A coach close to the age of his players has multiple benefits. All which were exemplified by Archie toward his players. The muscle memory from his playing days still intact. Brother bonding, things in common to a certain degree, etc..You won't see that from a 50-yr-old coach. Looking fit is one thing. Squaring off Mano e Mano with 18-yr-olds a little different.
I think you're right about Judas, er, Archie being stripped of his Flyer stripes by some. Some might actually pick up a stone.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
At this point in time for the UD men's basketball program, I'm not sure how anyone can have so little faith in them to find the best candidate for the job, and, how they can be so disappointed in the hiring of such an outstanding individual and coach. I haven't been this excited about a new coach since Donoher got fired. I went from being angry at Miller for conning us all, into being downright giddy about Grant. His press conference just cemented it. Talk about being dazzled.

IMO, Miller leaving may just have been a blessing in disguise. When Grant speaks of his love for Flyer basketball and the University, I believe him. I think he's going to do great things as it's head coach.
I'm kind of in your camp, JimBo. I'm still a mixture of disappointment, anger, and resignation about Archie's leaving. But, I'm guardedly optimistic about Anthony's arriving.

There's something to be said for the philosophy "If you want to be a 'destination program', you need to act like a 'destination program'." Hiring AG is a big step in that direction. A guy with prior, successful HC experience, who worked on a national championship staff at Florida, and has a long-term, vested interest in the welfare of the program, and sees this as his "destination" job. We weren't going to do much better if "successful, stable, and long-term" were the goals of this hire.

My late mother (a long-term member of UD's faculty) used to tell me "Things happen for a reason." Maybe that ties into your "blessing in disguise" comment. In any case, I have confidence that AG will be good for UD in the long run. LET'S GO, FLYERS!
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:47 PM
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Excellent post, T-Bone 84
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:58 PM
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Thanks, man. Just trying to support the program.

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Old 04-02-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
By ****ty i meant the situation. Football is king at Alabama. Basketball is a total after thought. he had some decent teams and players while he was there. Anthony Grant in a vacuum was a success at Alabama in my opinion. Basketball is king and drives the boat at VCU. i worded my original post poorly
OK, sorry I misinterpreted what you were saying. But there are many others that have said he was not good at Alabama which I don't think is true.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
By ****ty i meant the situation. Football is king at Alabama. Basketball is a total after thought. he had some decent teams and players while he was there. Anthony Grant in a vacuum was a success at Alabama in my opinion.
Don't hate on me, but I am not buying any of this.

I am not buying all the stuff in various threads about Nike Saban taking resources away from AG either.

Regardless though, again, I hope that I am wrong and wish AG well.

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Old 04-03-2017, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
I think his point is that he would prefer to see an established winning coach. Not an assistant in their 30s. Many higher end destination type jobs do not hire the up-and-coming assistants. There's too much risk involved with it. It's best to hire established coaches. I think that is the point trying to be made here. And I think we made a perfect hirer.
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We are not going to land an established, winning coach. No way, no how. It is simply never going to happen.

I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants.

Again, I oppose the AG hire, but I hope that I am wrong, and I wish AG well.

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Old 04-03-2017, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You still haven't said who you think would be better (unless I missed it). A coach who went 52-71 in the MAC, a coach who had one good season in the Horizon League, an untested, high risk assistant?
I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I did not see the point of changing things up. That is what I am upset about. And I really question if we would have considered AG had he not been an alumnus.

I suppose that I could be overstating the Alabama results. But, I have seen AG's teams at Alabama, and I did not like what I saw.

Doug makes a valid point about Greg McDermott. So, I suppose that there is some reason for hope.

Steve Alford’s record at Iowa was not that bad.

I just really did not think it was a good idea to hire an external candidate when Archie had things rolling.

I suppose that I could be wrong about all of this, and AG could produce results like his time at VCU. That would be great.

Last edited by ud2; 04-03-2017 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Steve Alford’s record at Iowa was not that bad.
Right, very similar to AG's record at Alabama.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:05 AM
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Big Fan

of Archie Miller who may be the best coach in Dayton history. I am also thrilled with the hire of Anthony Grant. The one stat that intrigues me is the one that separates the average coach from the elite coach. How often does the coach win on the road? It is vital to winning championships and achieving NCAA bids. Go get 'em stats experts.
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I did not see the point of changing things up. That is what I am upset about. And I really question if we would have considered AG had he not been an alumnus.

I suppose that I could be overstating the Alabama results. But, I have seen AG's teams at Alabama, and I did not like what I saw.

Doug makes a valid point about Greg McDermott. So, I suppose that there is some reason for hope.

Steve Alford’s record at Iowa was not that bad.

I just really did not think it was a good idea to hire an external candidate when Archie had things rolling.

I suppose that I could be wrong about all of this, and AG could produce results like his time at VCU. That would be great.
If only you really understood what goes into actually hiring a HC and not just giving it someone and "changing things up". I have no idea what you do for a living but how would you feel if someone just assumed they knew everything about your job, company, and profession, industry but really knew ZILCH about any of it but just started commenting about what should/ shouldn't be done. You would say WTF is this clown doing acting like he knows what's going on. You, your peers, etc. would just shake your head.

There's one heck of alot that goes into the hiring process than anyone on this board can imagine. There's an old saying that a former OSU football coach use to say in that everyone always wants to gamble but they never want to use their own chips...

Just facing an AD and/or a president in an interview process can make or break the next step for an individual...

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Old 04-03-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Right, very similar to AG's record at Alabama.
No, not similar, SA was significantly better at Iowa than AG was at Alabama.

SA 7 years at Iowa: 3 NCAAT, 3 NIT.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
If only you really understood what goes into actually hiring a HC and not just giving it someone and "changing things up". I have no idea what you do for a living but how would you feel if someone just assumed they knew everything about your job, company, and profession, industry but really knew ZILCH about any of it but just started commenting about what should/ shouldn't be done. You would say WTF is this clown doing acting like he knows what's going on. You, your peers, etc. would just shake your head.

There's one heck of alot that goes into the hiring process than anyone on this board can imagine. There's an old saying that a former OSU football coach use to say in that everyone always wants to gamble but they never want to use their own chips...

Just facing an AD and/or a president in an interview process can make or break the next step for an individual...
Ok, fair enough, but if AG does not produce at UD, are posters going to admit that UD made a mistake? I doubt it.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants. I did not see the point of changing things up. That is what I am upset about. And I really question if we would have considered AG had he not been an alumnus.

I suppose that I could be overstating the Alabama results. But, I have seen AG's teams at Alabama, and I did not like what I saw.

Doug makes a valid point about Greg McDermott. So, I suppose that there is some reason for hope.

Steve Alford’s record at Iowa was not that bad.

I just really did not think it was a good idea to hire an external candidate when Archie had things rolling.

I suppose that I could be wrong about all of this, and AG could produce results like his time at VCU. That would be great.
No, UD would not have considered AG if he wasn't an alum, and AG would not have considered UD if he wasn't an alum. Assuming he's telling the truth, he was approached multiple times over the last couple of years about coaching vacancies, and declined each time until UD opened up. Connections work both ways.

We have no idea how this will play out, and we wouldn't have known how it would have turned out had UD promoted Ostrom or Kuwik to the head job. Truth is, there are many ways to skin a cat, but there is no 1 way garunteed to work. Xavier has hired coaches with head coaching experience outside of Xavier (Matta), they've hired a head coach w/ prior experience as an assistant at X before leaving for a head coaching gig elsewhere before taking the main gig at X (Prosser), they've promoted from within (Mack/Miller) and they've also hired someone who was a top assistant elsewhere (Gillen) and have been successful with each coaching change, I think that speaks to the administration as much as anything that they've gone down each possible path over the last 40+ years in coaching searches and come out successful.

VCU promoted Capel from within, then turned to Florida's top assistant for 2 head coaches in a row (Grant/Shaka), then promoted former assistants that had gone on to be the head coach elsewhere for a handful of seasons. Again, good administration.

UD went with the steady hand in Purnell when things were a dumpster, turned to top assistants each of their next two hires from outside the program, then hired a coach with prior head coaching experience this time. The first 3 hires are w/o a doubt successful hires, I'm willing to give the administration the benefit of the doubt w/ Grant, that its more than just his alum status that got him the job. Both Ostrom and Kuwik have been on staff for the last 6 seasons, as far as I know, only Kuwik seriously interviewed for a head coaching gig during that tenure, neither obviously landed a head coaching spot. I'm sure they had opportunities at head coaching gigs for jobs they didn't want, perhaps at places we've never heard, but should we not wonder if there is something about each of them that make them less than ideal for the coaching gig at UD?

There is no "no brainer" decision in this process, and there never will be. Truth is, most coaches "fail" to some extent or another. Its a tough gig, with long hours that puts strain on a person's family. There is a constant shuffling that allows so few to establish deep roots anywhere and I can only imagine that the burnout rate at the upper levels is steep if you are anything less than overwhelmingly successful enough to hold on to a job.

Frankly, I would have been happy w/ either assistant getting the promotion, and I'm happy with Grant. I'm not in a position to know who truly was the best option moving forward, I put my faith in the administration that has successfully handled the transition each of the last 3 times.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, fair enough, but if AG does not produce at UD, are posters going to admit that UD made a mistake? I doubt it.
Yes they will. Heck, many wanted Archie fired 2.5 seasons into his tenure, meanwhile UD was already talking extension with Archie, perhaps we should put some faith in the people that were clear in their vision while many were calling for heads to roll. What if they had waited to talk extension, perhaps Archie leaves shortly after the Elite 8 run.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:35 AM
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I find it interesting that the change in coaches has been generating this much joy, glum or something in between.

Some have said (even going back to the last change of BG > AM) we should have hired a HC with experience.

Others have said we should hire the best Assistant from an elite program.

So here we are after another change and I have seen basically the same arguments one way or the other.

There is a little bit of a change cause now it appears we should have hired an assistant that belonged to OUR program. A major factor in this thought is we get to keep all our recruits. Maybe ... maybe not yet what if that particular assistant who was the most qualified wasn't interested? What if after next year it was obvious that the Assistant was not really either ready or truly qualified? In other words too many unknowns where there in the selection of said assistant.

Also interesting in this line of thought is that AG was a HC and was an assistant at an elite program (and won the NC game) during his stay there. So we have someone who has meet both general conditions. Hire an assistant AND hire a previous HC.

Yet both sides of the argument are not satisfied.

Think about this:

1) hire an assistant (whether from UD or other program) over an active or previous HC.

What are the risks? What are the unknowns?

2) hire an active or previous HC?

Same analysis for risks and unknowns although the unknowns are fewer and possibly can be quantified.

Archie had unknown potential with plenty of risks. Those that say there wasn't are lying to themselves and to others. He turned out better than may have been warranted immediately before the hire.

Anthony has demonstrated some potential and some risks are known. (As the case with almost any HC hire)

Think of it this way

You have a 1987 model car with the keys, good tires, full tank of gas, and CarFax sheet and everything appears to be running very well (No leaks, smoke, etc).

Now in front of you are 3 curtains, behind each one of them are 3 possible unknown modes of transportation.

Behind one curtain could be a bicycle, behind another may be a 1954 Hudson Hornet not in running condition and behind the third is possibly a 2016 Ford Mustang.

You are forced to make a choice, 1) go with what you have in front of you, or 2) select something behind one of those curtains.

What would you do?

Oh! AND forget about it:
The Maserati, Rolls Royce, etc aren't in the picture, so they are not lurking behind any curtain.

So we should be happy with who we have verses what we may have gotten.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:45 AM
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Archie had a Hudson that ran like a Veyron. Flying under the radar is fun and also beneficial. Stark reality for coaching a mid-major that has perennial tourney hopes is that you HAVE to do more with less. Archie is an Ace.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Steve Alford’s record at Iowa was not that bad.
He was still essentially fired, resigning under pressure (in part due to misconduct by Pierce).

One of his NCAA appearances was an auto bid, when they likely would have been a mid-level seed in the NIT.

He also took over a program from Dr Davis that had made the NCAA 3 of the prior 4 years. That wasn't where Alabama was. Simply counting NCAA and NIT is not a very good way to account for success in a 5 to 8 year period in my opinion.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:28 PM
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Grant was 117-85 (.579 winning %) at Alabama
Alford was 152-106 (.589 winning %) at Iowa

I would argue the CT is correct, that these are similar. There were some different NCAA/NIT outcomes, but the programs were at different starting points.

Interestingly enough, their records at VCU and New Mexico were also similar at .75 winning %.
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
Yes they will. Heck, many wanted Archie fired 2.5 seasons into his tenure, meanwhile UD was already talking extension with Archie, perhaps we should put some faith in the people that were clear in their vision while many were calling for heads to roll. What if they had waited to talk extension, perhaps Archie leaves shortly after the Elite 8 run.
Ok, well what about the BG hire? Was UD correct there?

Or what about the JOB hire?

Last edited by ud2; 04-03-2017 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
I find it interesting that the change in coaches has been generating this much joy, glum or something in between.

Some have said (even going back to the last change of BG > AM) we should have hired a HC with experience.

Others have said we should hire the best Assistant from an elite program.

So here we are after another change and I have seen basically the same arguments one way or the other.

There is a little bit of a change cause now it appears we should have hired an assistant that belonged to OUR program. A major factor in this thought is we get to keep all our recruits. Maybe ... maybe not yet what if that particular assistant who was the most qualified wasn't interested? What if after next year it was obvious that the Assistant was not really either ready or truly qualified? In other words too many unknowns where there in the selection of said assistant.

Also interesting in this line of thought is that AG was a HC and was an assistant at an elite program (and won the NC game) during his stay there. So we have someone who has meet both general conditions. Hire an assistant AND hire a previous HC.

Yet both sides of the argument are not satisfied.

Think about this:

1) hire an assistant (whether from UD or other program) over an active or previous HC.

What are the risks? What are the unknowns?

2) hire an active or previous HC?

Same analysis for risks and unknowns although the unknowns are fewer and possibly can be quantified.

Archie had unknown potential with plenty of risks. Those that say there wasn't are lying to themselves and to others. He turned out better than may have been warranted immediately before the hire.

Anthony has demonstrated some potential and some risks are known. (As the case with almost any HC hire)

Think of it this way

You have a 1987 model car with the keys, good tires, full tank of gas, and CarFax sheet and everything appears to be running very well (No leaks, smoke, etc).

Now in front of you are 3 curtains, behind each one of them are 3 possible unknown modes of transportation.

Behind one curtain could be a bicycle, behind another may be a 1954 Hudson Hornet not in running condition and behind the third is possibly a 2016 Ford Mustang.

You are forced to make a choice, 1) go with what you have in front of you, or 2) select something behind one of those curtains.

What would you do?

Oh! AND forget about it:
The Maserati, Rolls Royce, etc aren't in the picture, so they are not lurking behind any curtain.

So we should be happy with who we have verses what we may have gotten.
Well, I see your point. And let me say that I'm not disappointed that we didn't hire one of the two most obvious choices from our group of assistants per se. I'm disappointed that they were deemed not the best choice.

Unless the reason that AG was hired is because he's projected to be a better and more successful coach than AM(and I'm not sure one way or another if that's the case), it seems to me the goal should be to have a great program with continuity. It also seems to me it's better for all involved to continually be able to hire from within the system and continue a rising success pattern. It would be less disruptive to the program because your incoming and future recruits would be courted based on your constant system. It would obviously be great for the assistants to move right into a coaching role that follows their mentor. And it's a giant feather in the hat of the coach moving on to have a successful coaching tree. Another thing is I'm assuming that there is competition for hiring assistants and being known as a program that promotes from within should give you a leg up in the competition for them.

So, one of two things happened. The UD program and AM failed at getting an assistant prepared to take over, or the program wasn't satisfied that the AM system itself was good enough to take the program to where they wanted in the future, and AG's system is. The latter is good, the former is not. And again I'm don't know which it is, but I'm taking that leap of faith that it was the good reason.
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, well what about the BG hire? Was UD correct there?

Or what about the JOB hire?
BG, for the most part, I'd say yes, he advanced the program past Purnell, he failed to push it beyond that though. The hire I say was successful, perhaps the extensions were not the best idea in hindsight, though GTech helped UD out in that regard. Could somebody have done better, sure, could a lot of people done worse, absolutely. If you think Gregory was a failure, then you only need to look at the career of Ron Jirsa to realize UD made a solid hire. For those who don't recall, Jirsa had climbed the coaching ranks, was the head man at Georgia for a couple of seasons (I believe he took over for Tubby when he left for UK) was let go and brought to UD by Purnell. Jirsa also brought Ramod with him to UD and many thought he should be Purnell's replacement. He would have been the easy choice, would have been a safe choice as a top assistant, prior head coaching experience, etc... but UD went with Gregory. Jirsa took the head coaching job at Marshall and spent the next 4 years playing sub .500 basketball (each year) before being let go and continuing to climb back down the coaching ladder, currently a Radford assistant.

JOB, definitely not, unless you only worry about what a coach does in any 1 given season. Obviously he got off to a flying start, then Chip Jones gets suspended and all hell breaks loss and the program falls off the map, and then some. I believe some of the blame lies in the athletic department, which was very sub-par in Tom Frerick's latter stages and didn't help the cause either. The 1990 NCAA win and near loss to eventual final 4 team Arkansas was a ton of fun, the next 5 years sucked donkey. I'm not really sure how anyone could argue differently. I doubt Pollard ever pondered the idea that he might have to wear a wrestling head set due to frost bite obtained running to his girlfriend's house after practice in sub-frigid temps, UD's whole athletic department has advanced a ton since those days.

Its kind of a crap shot to begin with, which is why the administration and support is so important. UD was all set to hire Mike Deane as their head coach, then Marquette swooped in the last minute and hired him instead. Deane sucked at Marquette, UD hired Purnell who proved to be the right man, at the right time to get the program back on solid footing. Having Kissell take over the reins helped as well.

I know you don't like the Grant hire, and I'm not here to convince you that it was perfect. No body knows what the perfect hire would have been, there are too many variables and we often place too much credit/blame to 1 or two weekends in March failing to realize the sport is intended to entertain us from November thru Feb as well. All we can hope for is that the administration does their due diligence, gives every coach the tools they need to succeed and is ready to make a change when needed. Archie is most likely 1 Vee Sanford "kiss" away from being a "nice" coach, but not the guy Indiana fans (and more important donors) would accept. Crazy.

Last edited by Medford; 04-03-2017 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post

Obviously he got off to a flying start, then Chip Jones gets suspended and all hell breaks loss and the program falls off the map, and then some.
And Chip Jones cost a lot of us a chance to win an intramural championship that year too. He was, to say the least, unstoppable in intramural play.
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:50 PM
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Medford and NJFlyer are spot on. That said, it's time to move and start working on the '17-'18 season. First order of business is the recruits and assistants. Keeping most/all of them would be a HUGE home run would quiet a lot of comments. Not keeping them is no worse than what would have been expected. Either way, I am excited to see what we will look like next season and have the same positive expectations that the rest of the Flyer Faithful have. Great Day To Be A FLYER!

PS - with a new coach we get a new logo too, correct?
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Old 04-03-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I really do not like JD's quote. The problem is not the fact that our coaches leave, the problem is that UD is not a destination job.
I disagree....1000%

The only problem would be for anyone in UD Amin to be of that mindset.
UD is indeed a destination job, even though it hasn't been recently, but that doesn't mean we should ever approach who we are, and what we offer to a quality D1 coach from the perspective of a sideline dweller who hopes they choose him in for the neighborhood pick-up game.

We have everything and more than the Villanova's, Gonzaga's, St. John's (Lou the sweater and now Mullin)..fill in the blanks....

I refuse to accept that UD is the AAA for aspiring young coaches and I think that the Anthony Grant hire shows to some extent that UD Admin feels the same way.

If Villanova did what it takes to turn the corner.....add a cornerstone head coach...and win big time games....UD can do it also.

The time to do so starts now.....

Last edited by UDBaby; 04-03-2017 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:00 PM
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The recruits simply have to be licking their chops at immediate PT next year..UD really only has 2 starters penciled in for sure and guys that have been starters in their careers and those have been rather temporary. Sure, we can assume DD has one locked up but he'll have to improve, prove himself to a new coaching staff and not take anything for granted..

Mikesell, Crosby, Miller, Landers, and GF2 are still in transition and each of them have multiple weaknesses that must be improved upon whether that be lack of strength, quickness, footwork, court aptitude, skill-set, etc. and that would still be the same even WITH AM here let alone a new HC who has no investment/equity built up with these players..
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I would have given the job to one of Archie's assistants.

Again, I oppose the AG hire, but I hope that I am wrong, and I wish AG well.
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, fair enough, but if AG does not produce at UD, are posters going to admit that UD made a mistake? I doubt it.
ud2: have you ever been a hiring manager? The guy who had the final say on which person got hired?

I have, many times. I've hired spectacular successes and some real stinkers. More of the former than the latter. But I've lived long enough to have learned a few things:

-If you know what you're looking for before the interviews start, you're much more likely to recognize it when you see it. That requires vision. The question isn't "is AG a good hire" the question is "what was the vision of the administration and does AG match it?" If those 2 line up, AG will be successful.

-I've hired people and then heard later that some grumbled that I hired the wrong guy / girl but those people weren't even in on the interview process. How could they know if the candidate shared my vision for the department when they didn't even attend the interview process? Did you attend the interview process for AG? If it was anything like his press conference then they must have hired the right guy. I was impressed.

-Every time I picked a stinker it was because I settled for someone to fill a an immediate need instead of reaching for what I really needed. I, too, was disappointed that it wasn't one of the assistants. But if we hired one of the assistants just because it was easy then it's likely he would have turned out to be the wrong guy.

Originally Posted by UDBaby View Post
I refuse to accept that UD is the AAA for aspiring young coaches and I think that the Anthony Grant hire shows to some extent that UD Admin feels the same way.

If Villanova did what it takes to turn the corner.....add a cornerstone head coach...and win big time games....UD can do it also.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think there was really no one more qualified than AG. I mean, honestly, think about the constraints:

-Very few from a P5 + BE conference school was going to come to a "mid-major." Even many AAC schools would not consider it a promotion from a (conference) prestige standpoint.

-Small conference standouts are rare. Just a couple per year are available. Was there a standout this year?

-Retired / semi-retired coaches: Larry Brown anyone? Tubby Smith? What wildly successful coach is sitting out there looking for a job? Any former coach would come with "but remember why he was fired from his last job" complaints.

-That leaves assistant coaches, which are by definition crap shoots. Honestly, you're going to hire someone to do a job they've never done before based on a 1 hour interview?? Sometimes it's your best option, but it's admittedly very risky.

-If you really break it down, I think we could have scarcely done better than AG.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
ud2: have you ever been a hiring manager? The guy who had the final say on which person got hired?

I have, many times. I've hired spectacular successes and some real stinkers. More of the former than the latter. But I've lived long enough to have learned a few things:

-If you know what you're looking for before the interviews start, you're much more likely to recognize it when you see it. That requires vision. The question isn't "is AG a good hire" the question is "what was the vision of the administration and does AG match it?" If those 2 line up, AG will be successful.

-I've hired people and then heard later that some grumbled that I hired the wrong guy / girl but those people weren't even in on the interview process. How could they know if the candidate shared my vision for the department when they didn't even attend the interview process? Did you attend the interview process for AG? If it was anything like his press conference then they must have hired the right guy. I was impressed.

-Every time I picked a stinker it was because I settled for someone to fill a an immediate need instead of reaching for what I really needed. I, too, was disappointed that it wasn't one of the assistants. But if we hired one of the assistants just because it was easy then it's likely he would have turned out to be the wrong guy.



You know, the more I think about it, the more I think there was really no one more qualified than AG. I mean, honestly, think about the constraints:

-Very few from a P5 + BE conference school was going to come to a "mid-major." Even many AAC schools would not consider it a promotion from a (conference) prestige standpoint.

-Small conference standouts are rare. Just a couple per year are available. Was there a standout this year?

-Retired / semi-retired coaches: Larry Brown anyone? Tubby Smith? What wildly successful coach is sitting out there looking for a job? Any former coach would come with "but remember why he was fired from his last job" complaints.

-That leaves assistant coaches, which are by definition crap shoots. Honestly, you're going to hire someone to do a job they've never done before based on a 1 hour interview?? Sometimes it's your best option, but it's admittedly very risky.

-If you really break it down, I think we could have scarcely done better than AG.
Why should hiring an assistant that's been there right next to your coach every step of the way for the past 6 seasons be any riskier than bringing someone in from the outside? The vision of UD basketball program, did that change because Archie left? Then it doesn't sound like much of a vision if it's dependent upon what personnel you have to work with at the time.

I guess I just can't fathom that at least one of the assistants didn't share the vision of the program that their former boss did. I can't believe that it's a coincidence that the vision changed at the exact same time as when the front line implementer of that vision decided to leave. I also find it hard to believe that you like two top assistants in your program for 6 years and they're still not ready to take over as a coach. I can't believe that an assistant that knows the vision and has been working toward that vision(6 years, they better have been) would go into the interview process and spout off a direction that's contrary to that vision.

Personally I think they jumped at the chance of AG for a couple reasons and none of them are because he fit like a glove for the vision of the program that was in place on March 24th. I think they like the idea of not having to go through this process every 4 to 8 years. I think they like the warm and fuzzy feeling it brings to the alumni to have one of their own leading the program. And for those two reasons, and the fact they felt he's a very good coach, I think they changed the vision to fit AG and not that AG fit the vision that was in place. Not saying it's a bad thing and AG has my full support and I'm excited to see his product on the floor. But let's not kid ourselves, the risk of changing directions is a bigger risk than keeping the continuity going of hiring an assistant that is more familiar with your current program and was a long time student of the man who would still be your coach if he chose to be.

And one more thing, I can't believe I just put together a post that used the word "vision" 11(now 12) times.

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Old 04-03-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Why should hiring an assistant that's been there right next to your coach every step of the way for the past 6 seasons be any riskier than bringing someone in from the outside?
Maybe because those assistants have never been a head coach.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:23 PM
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This talk about hiring the current assistants comes up every time there is a vacancy. A I recall when BG left, there were many who thought that UD should hire one of BG's assistants as this would enhance continuity and perhaps keep the two recruits.

I am not aware of any of BG's assistants becoming head coaches since but then I do not follow their careers so perhaps I am wrong. I am sure that none had the success that Archie had.

When Purnell left there were many on this board who wanted his assistant to be head coach and he already had head coaching experience. And while he later went on to coach Marshall, he was never a great success.

Hiring assistants of the current departing coach is not the slam dunk some on this board would believe. For every Don Donoher example there are far more misses.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Why should hiring an assistant that's been there right next to your coach every step of the way for the past 6 seasons be any riskier than bringing someone in from the outside? .
Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Maybe because those assistants have never been a head coach.
And 1 of those assistants in just the last year has interviewed for lower level jobs like Dartmouth and not gotten the job. If you can't get a bottom level Ivy job, you aren't ready for a top level A10 job.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Maybe because those assistants have never been a head coach.
Maybe it's less risky because they've been on the same page with your VERY SUCCESSFUL program for the past 6 years.

Your answer is about as useful as saying the reason black jack is riskier than roulette is because you could lose your money. I asked why it should be "riskier", not risky. You gave me zero.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:28 PM
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Do we know where AG is on taking in transfers?
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
And 1 of those assistants in just the last year has interviewed for lower level jobs like Dartmouth and not gotten the job. If you can't get a bottom level Ivy job, you aren't ready for a top level A10 job.
That's a better answer than longtimefan gave. Still a bit abstact. Did he get turned down for the job or was it just not a mutual fit.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Why should hiring an assistant that's been there right next to your coach every step of the way for the past 6 seasons be any riskier than bringing someone in from the outside? The vision of UD basketball program, did that change because Archie left? Then it doesn't sound like much of a vision if it's dependent upon what personnel you have to work with at the time.

I guess I just can't fathom that at least one of the assistants didn't share the vision of the program that their former boss did. I can't believe that it's a coincidence that the vision changed at the exact same time as when the front line implementer of that vision decided to leave. I also find it hard to believe that you like two top assistants in your program for 6 years and they're still not ready to take over as a coach. I can't believe that an assistant that knows the vision and has been working toward that vision(6 years, they better have been) would go into the interview process and spout off a direction that's contrary to that vision.

Personally I think they jumped at the chance of AG for a couple reasons and none of them are because he fit like a glove for the vision of the program that was in place on March 24th. I think they like the idea of not having to go through this process every 4 to 8 years. I think they like the warm and fuzzy feeling it brings to the alumni to have one of their own leading the program. And for those two reasons, and the fact they felt he's a very good coach, I think they changed the vision to fit AG and not that AG fit the vision that was in place. Not saying it's a bad thing and AG has my full support and I'm excited to see his product on the floor. But let's not kid ourselves, the risk of changing directions is a bigger risk than keeping the continuity going of hiring an assistant that is more familiar with your current program and was a long time student of the man who would still be your coach if he chose to be.

And one more thing, I can't believe I just put together a post that used the word "vision" 11(now 12) times.
Amen! Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! I agree 110%!

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Old 04-03-2017, 04:45 PM
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Lickliter, Stevens, Holtmann, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack, 4 out of those 5 had zero hc experience before taking over. And Holtmann was the hc at Gardner Webb for 3 years, and he produced one first round CIT loss as far as postseason appearances are concerned.

4 out of those 5 have been very successful. And Lickliter was not great, but not terrible either, IMO.

Lickliter, 6 years at Butler, 2 NIT, 2 NCAAT Sweet 16's. 3 year at Iowa, no postseason appearances.

6 years: 2 NIT and 2 NCAAT Sweet 16's is better than any recent coach that we have had other than Archie.

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Old 04-03-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Maybe it's less risky because they've been on the same page with your VERY SUCCESSFUL program for the past 6 years.

Your answer is about as useful as saying the reason black jack is riskier than roulette is because you could lose your money. I asked why it should be "riskier", not risky. You gave me zero.
You have to admit that there is a difference in having run a program as a head coach and never having had to run the program as an assistant. There's certainly a vast difference in "experience" between AG and the assistants. This doesn't necessarily mean the assistants won't become good head coaches down the road, but for right here, right now, we did pretty darn good with AG.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Maybe it's less risky because they've been on the same page with your VERY SUCCESSFUL program for the past 6 years.

Your answer is about as useful as saying the reason black jack is riskier than roulette is because you could lose your money. I asked why it should be "riskier", not risky. You gave me zero.
Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
That's a better answer than longtimefan gave. Still a bit abstact. Did he get turned down for the job or was it just not a mutual fit.
So now you're telling me what I said? I know what I said. Hiring an assistant coach who has never been a head coach (yes, even a current assistant) is RISKIER than hiring a coach with many years of head coaching experience. There, I hope you can understand it this time. And I could add that I assume you didn't interview any of them.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Lickliter, Stevens, Holtmann, Sean Miller, and Chris Mack, 4 out of those 5 had zero hc experience before taking over. And Holtmann was the hc at Gardner Webb for 3 years, and he produced one first round CIT loss as far as postseason appearances are concerned.

4 out of those 5 have been very successful. And Lickliter did ok too IMO.
Just about every head coach was an assistant prior to becoming a head coach. When a big time program is looking to replace a coach they often look to experienced head coaches. Look at all of the A10 coaches hired this year. I believe all were head coaches, not a single assistant was hired. I haven't researched it, but I would say it is far more common for a top 30-35 program (which is what UD currently is) to hire a coach with head coach experience than someone who has no head coaching experience.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Maybe it's less risky because they've been on the same page with your VERY SUCCESSFUL program for the past 6 years.
Exactly. All 3 of our assistants were there every single step of the way over the past 6 years.

All 3 know the offensive and defensive schemes Archie used, they know UD and UD's athletic department and how everything works at UD, they know the recruiting area, etc.

And IMO, we likely showed all 3 of them the door.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So now you're telling me what I said? I know what I said. Hiring an assistant coach who has never been a head coach (yes, even a current assistant) is RISKIER than hiring a coach with many years of head coaching experience. There, I hope you can understand it this time. And I could add that I assume you didn't interview any of them.
Oh, Okay then. That was your answer to "Why is it riskier?". If I asked why was it risky, it would've been one of many possible intelligent responses. But since I asked why it was riskier, it was the very opposite.

Let me teach you something. When asked why one thing is better/worse/riskier than another, an intelligent response would be "Because those assistants have never been a head coach and the experienced head coach changing the direction of the program is less risky because [insert intelligent counter here]."

And by the way, saying it's riskier, does not answer why it's riskier.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:11 PM
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Not fair comparison DD was appointed interim head coach when Blackburn died. Administration had balance of the season to evaluate. To hire assistant is a crap shoot. I believe AG was a choice of best available choices. Alumni connection a valuable asset, as valuable to admin as NBA is to recruits. Not 100% secure in next year's record but very hopeful for AG future success.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
You have to admit that there is a difference in having run a program as a head coach and never having had to run the program as an assistant. There's certainly a vast difference in "experience" between AG and the assistants. This doesn't necessarily mean the assistants won't become good head coaches down the road, but for right here, right now, we did pretty darn good with AG.
There's a difference. But riskier, not a chance IMO. With AG there's a huge risk that this program will go backwards because you and I both know that he's going to get a lot more time and passes than the Assistant would've. If the assistant staying meant that AM's new recruits stay, you've bought yourself two seasons to evaluate your new head coach. If you don't like what you see, you can start over in 2019 and still have the AM recruiting class of 6 juniors and one senior(they are certainly less likely to leave after 2 years).

If AG fails (sets program back to BG years for instance) you know it's going to be "Let's see what happens when he gets a full roster of his own players". And there will be plethora of other excuses being tossed around because nobody wants to make the decision that will be needed.

Anyway you look at it, if assistant fails, we can correct mistake in 2 years, if AG fails, I'm afraid we're going to be talking about getting this program back to the Archie days well into the 2020s.

Let me also say that maybe they want the whole world. An alumni at his destination job that takes us to the next level. They probably felt they couldn't wait 2 years to find out if assistants work out and still have AG available. I'm sure they had the right reasons for making this move, but don't tell me what's riskier like it's a fact, there's good debate for both sides.

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Old 04-03-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Exactly. All 3 of our assistants were there every single step of the way over the past 6 years.

All 3 know the offensive and defensive schemes Archie used, they know UD and UD's athletic department and how everything works at UD, they know the recruiting area, etc.

And IMO, we likely showed all 3 of them the door.
At the same time, the AD has been around the assistants for all of that time too. And maybe the AD doesn't see them as head coaching material. Whereas others did see that in Stevens, Holtzman, Mack, Few, et al.

Quite frankly I don't know any of them well enough to know how they would handle the demands of being a head coach with their first gig a top tier A10 job. What I do know is that none have gotten very far in other HC job searches, either because they weren't quite ready, weren't quite fully interested, or other reasons. And from all appearances, Archie didn't exactly lobby for any of them, nor did the current players to any significant degree.

It could be all three are great assistants and not head coaching material. At least now. Or it could have been a mistake.

We'll know if it was in a few years if any gets a UD like HC job within the next year and blows the doors off while AG struggles.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
There's a difference. But riskier, not a chance IMO. With AG there's a huge risk that this program will go backwards because you and I both know that he's going to get a lot more time and passes than the Assistant would've. If the assistant staying meant that AM's new recruits stay, you've bought yourself two seasons to evaluate your new head coach. If you don't like what you see, you can start over in 2019 and still have the AM recruiting class of 6 juniors and one senior(they are certainly less likely to leave after 2 years).

If AG fails (sets program back to BG years for instance) you know it's going to be "Let's see what happens when he gets a full roster of his own players". And there will be plethora of other excuses being tossed around because nobody wants to make the decision that will be needed.

Anyway you look at it, if assistant fails, we can correct mistake in 2 years, if AG fails, I'm afraid we're going to be talking about getting this program back to the Archie days well into the 2020s.

Let me also say that maybe they want the whole world. An alumni at his destination job that takes us to the next level. They probably felt they couldn't wait 2 years to find out if assistants work out and still have AG available. I'm sure they had the right reasons for making this move, but don't tell me what's riskier like it's a fact, there's good debate for both sides.
Obviously, there's risk in any decision, but if I'm hiring the next CEO I would feel more comfortable with my next CEO having "been there, done that". I suspect that was the mindset of Neil and his team.
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longtimefan (04-03-2017)
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
And Chip Jones cost a lot of us a chance to win an intramural championship that year too. He was, to say the least, unstoppable in intramural play.
He was absurd at the pac! no chance against his quickness.
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CT Flyer (04-03-2017)
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AC91 View Post
He was absurd at the pac! no chance against his quickness.
Plus Brian Donoher had returned from Wittenberg at that point and was on the same team as Chip. JUST NOT FAIR.
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MikeF (04-03-2017)
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Do we know where AG is on taking in transfers?
I don't think he took a lot in, but I looked at his recruiting at Alabama a few days back. There was definitely a JUCO or two in there. Vast majority traditional high school recruits.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
If the assistant staying meant that AM's new recruits stay, you've bought yourself two seasons to evaluate your new head coach. If you don't like what you see, you can start over in 2019 and still have the AM recruiting class of 6 juniors and one senior(they are certainly less likely to leave after 2 years).

Anyway you look at it, if assistant fails, we can correct mistake in 2 years,
You would seriously fire a coach after only two years?
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m21eagle45 (04-03-2017)
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
There's a difference. But riskier, not a chance IMO. With AG there's a huge risk that this program will go backwards because you and I both know that he's going to get a lot more time and passes than the Assistant would've. If the assistant staying meant that AM's new recruits stay, you've bought yourself two seasons to evaluate your new head coach. If you don't like what you see, you can start over in 2019 and still have the AM recruiting class of 6 juniors and one senior(they are certainly less likely to leave after 2 years).

If AG fails (sets program back to BG years for instance) you know it's going to be "Let's see what happens when he gets a full roster of his own players". And there will be plethora of other excuses being tossed around because nobody wants to make the decision that will be needed.

Anyway you look at it, if assistant fails, we can correct mistake in 2 years, if AG fails, I'm afraid we're going to be talking about getting this program back to the Archie days well into the 2020s.

Let me also say that maybe they want the whole world. An alumni at his destination job that takes us to the next level. They probably felt they couldn't wait 2 years to find out if assistants work out and still have AG available. I'm sure they had the right reasons for making this move, but don't tell me what's riskier like it's a fact, there's good debate for both sides.
There is the old axiom "Don't hire anyone you can't fire". I definitely agree with that philosophy. I believe strongly in it and i certainly hope that it was discussed during the vetting of AG.

However, I view the point that you have made as Planning to Fail. I have always felt that when you plan to fail, you find a way to succeed in that plan. Basically, the best chance to progress has to trump the biggest issue if we slide.

AG should have been chosen because he is the best candidate. The Assistant Coaches have had several years to put themselves in position to be the clear choice. It may be a mistake but that does not appear to be the case. Quite frankly, if this happened after last season I'm not sure this would have been nearly the issue. It seems the fear of losing a recruit or the class is a major factor to some. Opinions differ but most seem positive or at least open minded on AG. I would think that the success of the program has financial implications. I don't see the University sustaining declining donations to sooth the feelings of a coach or a small group of alumni. If the wins aren't there, the heat will be on. Now, I would hope they would give him a face saving way out because he is one of us. But the heat should be on.

I would hate to see us ever make a choice because the floor is higher if we fail.
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Gazoo (04-04-2017)
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You would seriously fire a coach after only two years?
Minimum yes. Before I ever hired the assistant under AM, I would certainly make it clear that we both expect a continuation and advancement of the program he'd been working on in a lower capacity. Remember, this is an extension of the coach you had the previous 6 seasons. Expectations were certainly already established for the next couple seasons and the promoted assistant wouldn't most likely be rebuilding. So yes, after year 2 if it's obvious that the expectations are coming up well short of what was expected and no extenuating circumstances exist, well, then it's not working out. Let's move on to different direction.

Being part of the AM staff, this new coach owns the team and the results that he puts on the floor in 2017-2018. That's the point of hiring the assistant in the first place. CONTINUATION.
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