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  #1  
Old 03-17-2019, 07:08 PM
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NBE expansion talk.

Some want no expansion but if they do just one tesm.

That team may very well be SLU. Talk was they are jesuit plus they bring a new market. Time now to put that theory to test. With SLU in the NCAA tournament what will be their market share.

St Louis is a pro town or a university of mizzouri fan base. This will tell if st louis will bring that much of a market share or people actually watching.

Dayton selling point is its larger market of people actually watching the Flyers than the bilikins
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:34 PM
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I believe the BE will stand pat for at least another season or 2. Yes, SLU won the A-10 tournament, but they did it with a senior-dominated lineup, and they were a bit of a disappointment in the regular season. The real test will be if they can sustain their success after losing their PG, their leading scorer, and one of their two bruisers down low. I know nothing about their incoming recruits, so maybe those gaps will all be filled for next year. Dunno.

I highly doubt that we get an invite to the BE any time soon. The game-changers there could be us beating 1 or 2 BE teams in the NIT this year, AND THEN having a return to the kind of success we had in the 2 years that we had Jordan Sibert as a Flyer. One without the other won’t get it. Money talks and BS walks, so the only way I see us getting an invite is if we show we can bring recognition and NCAAT $ to the fold. And holding our own against their brethren in the NIT this year would be a secondary selling point.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:39 PM
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A larger issue

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Some want no expansion but if they do just one tesm.

That team may very well be SLU. Talk was they are jesuit plus they bring a new market. Time now to put that theory to test. With SLU in the NCAA tournament what will be their market share.

St Louis is a pro town or a university of mizzouri fan base. This will tell if st louis will bring that much of a market share or people actually watching.

Dayton selling point is its larger market of people actually watching the Flyers than the bilikins
I think a larger issue is geography. Creighton is an outlier. SLU would bridge the gap between CU and the other mid-west NBE schools, greatly assisting scheduling of non-revenue sports.

As regards "share", isn't the total number of eyeballs more important than market share? A high percentage of Dayton viewers could/would still be far fewer viewers than a small share of Saint Louis viewers. Right?
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:41 PM
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It is in our best interest at St. Louis does not go to the Sweet 16 or beyond. If they do, you can pretty much kiss any waining hope of getting to the big east goodbye. The big east, when Fox tells them they have to add a new team, is just looking for a reason to add St. Louis.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
It is in our best interest at St. Louis does not go to the Sweet 16 or beyond. If they do, you can pretty much kiss any waining hope of getting to the big east goodbye. The big east, when Fox tells them they have to add a new team, is just looking for a reason to add St. Louis.
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I agree that SLU would be their preference, but I think it’ll take more than one NCAAT appearance for them to merit a bid. H@ll, we went to The Dance 4 years in a row, and we got barely a sniff (and yes, I realize the “Xavier Blackball” factor was at play, but still). They’re going to have to sustain that success for more than 2 weeks in 1 season.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I believe the BE will stand pat for at least another season or 2. Yes, SLU won the A-10 tournament, but they did it with a senior-dominated lineup, and they were a bit of a disappointment in the regular season. The real test will be if they can sustain their success after losing their PG, their leading scorer, and one of their two bruisers down low. I know nothing about their incoming recruits, so maybe those gaps will all be filled for next year. Dunno.

I highly doubt that we get an invite to the BE any time soon. The game-changers there could be us beating 1 or 2 BE teams in the NIT this year, AND THEN having a return to the kind of success we had in the 2 years that we had Jordan Sibert as a Flyer. One without the other won’t get it. Money talks and BS walks, so the only way I see us getting an invite is if we show we can bring recognition and NCAAT $ to the fold. And holding our own against their brethren in the NIT this year would be a secondary selling point.
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Senior-dominated lineup full of transfers,too.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
It is in our best interest at St. Louis does not go to the Sweet 16 or beyond. If they do, you can pretty much kiss any waining hope of getting to the big east goodbye. The big east, when Fox tells them they have to add a new team, is just looking for a reason to add St. Louis.
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(note:- I am not going to apologize for desperately wanting a BE invite. The A-10 is a decent consolation, and gives us an oppty to get into the NCAAT- I get all that. But the BE are our peers, not the A10).

The above is my feeling as well. As badly as I hope to get into the BE, I literally cringed when SLU pulled that A10-T championship game out in the 2nd half. Our margin for error for a BE invite against SLU is razor thin. The only hope we have is to have our MBB program clearly show to be superior. We took a step back in this A10T.

IMHO the only 2 candidates for that 11th BE seat are the two of us. Below is a portion of a chart I posted awhile back:

Name……………………….NCAAT games all-time….Last 10 years…….Type………….Population……..USN ranking…………..Endowment
University of Dayton…….39…………………………………..11………………Private…………..10, 882………………127……………………..525MM
St Louis University………..16………………………………….6…………………Private………… …14,581………………106……………………..1.15B


There will be a recency bias when the time comes. If SLU goes on a tear, which I think they are capable of, our margin of MBB supremacy dwindles.

Let's knock off a couple BE teams in the NIT!!
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:22 PM
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"did you see Dayton beat those Big East teams in the NIT, sure would love to have them in the BE next year" - all the Big East ADs
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:25 PM
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We’re killing in the A10. Time to move up. Yeah right!
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
We’re killing in the A10. Time to move up. Yeah right!
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Absolutely. We've had these debates before- we can agree to disagree but there is one fact that all of us can buy into- should UD ever receive a BE invite our acceptance would be immediate and celebrated.
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Browns View Post
"did you see Dayton beat those Big East teams in the NIT, sure would love to have them in the BE next year" - all the Big East ADs
Agree. NIT wins mean less than nothing.
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:00 PM
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We can compare the program all we want in terms of financial support, butts in the seats, endowment, alumni bases, media reach, etc...

It still doesn't make up for the fact that other than the E8 run and a decent follow up, we haven't done what it takes over a long period of time, ON THE FLOOR, that makes us much more desirable than anyone else.

We can feel that way all we want, but it doesn't change the fact we are 0-6 in our last 4 A10 post season games and 0-2 in the last 2 NCAA. We haven't dominated the A10 by any means. One outright regular season, one tie regular season, and a runner up. That is not dominating the conference by any means and the best results came when the overlords to the south left. We can look at all the results over the last 10 years, and until UD wins the regular season and at least makes it to Saturday of the A10 more often than not, the results on the court aren't setting ourselves apart.

I believe that next season will be a barometer for what we are going to see out of coach Grant. That barometer will tell us and everyone else how desirable long term UD basketball will be to outside conferences. I want to be out of the A10 as much as anyone else, but I would also like to be able to compete versus thinking the grass is greener on the other side only to get our asses handed to us.

Butler in their 10 years prior to an invite...6 NCAA appearance, 2 national championship game appearances, 2 other sweet 16's, two other round of 32's, 6 regular season conference championships and 3 conference tournament championships.

Do I need to go over Xaviers 10 year resume prior to an invite?

Those are the results that get you invites.

Last edited by shocka43; 03-17-2019 at 11:08 PM..
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:49 PM
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Georgetown, Xavier, Marquette don't want UD period. All the arguments about showing results are secondary arguments. Why would they expand? 4 NCAA teams 4 NIT teams. Only two left out.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by UD90 View Post
Georgetown, Xavier, Marquette don't want UD period. All the arguments about showing results are secondary arguments. Why would they expand? 4 NCAA teams 4 NIT teams. Only two left out.
Only 1 left out. 4 ncaat, 5 nit.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:26 AM
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Shocka, your spot on with your comments. I think all of us see it the same way. I also agree the BE has no reason to expand except for one game changing reason- their TV package partner demanding more inventory.

The way I see it we have one more shot in the next 10 years to leave the A10. It’s the BE. I’m not ready yet to concede it to a SLU program that has not demonstrated any better success than us. Maybe I’m seeing life thru my Pollyanish Flyer lenses but I’d accept the gamble that moving up means that we’d not be the league doormats. If that means upgrading the coach, or the AD fine.

As someone who knows the area, the campus and the Arena let me ask a very difficult question- one that has me stumped: what specifically is holding us back on achieving more success on the court? If I could understand that perhaps I’d be more reluctant to leave the cozy mid-major world of the A10.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Agree. NIT wins mean less than nothing.
Originally Posted by Browns View Post
"did you see Dayton beat those Big East teams in the NIT, sure would love to have them in the BE next year" - all the Big East ADs
I’d agree except in our specific situation. Assuming we run the NIT table (unlikely granted) we’d be playing on the court our aspiring league claims as their turf, very likely against a BE team.

I think we’re 3-1 against BE teams, the more they see us compete head to head without giving an inch leaves an impression. Now say we’re 1-8 against them that leaves another impression.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
I think we’re 3-1 against BE teams, the more they see us compete head to head without giving an inch leaves an impression. Now say we’re 1-8 against them that leaves another impression.
The issue with the stat alone of UD vs. SEC or UD vs. BE is the fact that while we have done fairly well, we have done that against coaches that don't play us once, twice, or three times a season. I don't like saying this, but the SEC or BE teams "care" about prepping for UD in their OOC doesn't match how they prepare for their own conference foes. This is kind of the straw man in the room. Believe me, I like to beat up on them too...but I don't think there is much discussion beyond that. I just simply don't believe they care...number one...and number two for reasons mentioned earlier.

I honestly think that there is some other conference realignment that happens before UD ever gets a BE invite. I hope that realignment includes VCU.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:14 AM
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We want in a better conference? This is the receipe:

Win next 5 regular season titles
Win 4 of 5 conference tournaments
5 of 5 ncaaT, no NIT
Lose rd 1 once
Round 32 once
S16 twice
Elite 8 once

So far our resume does not scream, or whisper, BE
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
We want in a better conference? This is the receipe:

Win next 5 regular season titles
Win 4 of 5 conference tournaments
5 of 5 ncaaT, no NIT
Lose rd 1 once
Round 32 once
S16 twice
Elite 8 once

So far our resume does not scream, or whisper, BE

Oh good. It will be easy. [sarcasm]. How many teams can meet this criteria?
How many teams in the last 30 years have won 5 straight regular season titles?
If this is the results people are expecting, I can now see why there are negative posters on here.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:19 AM
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NBE? How about not

I'd rather be in the American conference with Houston, UC, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Wichita St., UConn, SMU. Leave all the smug BE teams to themselves.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:21 AM
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Back to the Future...

Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Agree. NIT wins mean less than nothing.
http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14161

Here's the NIT thread from 2010...good reading if you have time...or are constipated.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:40 AM
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The only expansion most of you should worry about is in your belly...lol
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I'd rather be in the American conference with Houston, UC, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Wichita St., UConn, SMU. Leave all the smug BE teams to themselves.
I'm afraid we're a minority Gazoo. I think the American has more potential than the BE long-term and the fears of it being raided are way overblown. If the Big 12 wanted UC or Houston they'd have taken them already. Now that the NCAA has made them an exception for having a football championship game w/ only 10 teams, the reason for them to expand no longer exists.

In another thread (I believe the "We need to be . . ." thread) I laid out a few simple and plausible moves the American could make to expand West to truly be "American", become dominate in the basketball world and fortify football. I'd re-post here but that seems like spamming.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Oh good. It will be easy. [sarcasm]. How many teams can meet this criteria?
How many teams in the last 30 years have won 5 straight regular season titles?
If this is the results people are expecting, I can now see why there are negative posters on here.
Double bye in the A10 tourney or Lunardi had us in the next four out in February aren't exactly things that are going to make waves with Big East AD's or anywhere outside this site.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14161

Here's the NIT thread from 2010...good reading if you have time...or are constipated.
I remember that NIT since is seems like it came after some years (and the season itself) from frustration with the team performance and the expectations of being something better.

I for one didn't think they could run the table as all the away games and opponents they had to get through to be in the position they wound up in ... well it was salve for the soul at the time.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Double bye in the A10 tourney or Lunardi had us in the next four out in February aren't exactly things that are going to make waves with Big East AD's or anywhere outside this site.
Yes some on here like to nuance the small in order to validate a claim that we should be something we haven't yet achieved.

As in the First Four. UD points to that as a special event tied to the program ... well I don't see it that way.

It is special but not tied to a product on the floor. It does make the area look well, supports college BB, etc., but it could just as well be played in the Nutter Center, down in Cincy or in CBus.

The fan base supports the Flyers, it has been shown yearly so we don't need a First Four event to demonstrate that. This event has been held for 18 straight years, now IF we had played in the NCAAt for 10 of those 18 years now that would be something...
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
We can compare the program all we want in terms of financial support, butts in the seats, endowment, alumni bases, media reach, etc...

It still doesn't make up for the fact that other than the E8 run and a decent follow up, we haven't done what it takes over a long period of time, ON THE FLOOR, that makes us much more desirable than anyone else.

We can feel that way all we want, but it doesn't change the fact we are 0-6 in our last 4 A10 post season games and 0-2 in the last 2 NCAA. We haven't dominated the A10 by any means. One outright regular season, one tie regular season, and a runner up. That is not dominating the conference by any means and the best results came when the overlords to the south left. We can look at all the results over the last 10 years, and until UD wins the regular season and at least makes it to Saturday of the A10 more often than not, the results on the court aren't setting ourselves apart.

I believe that next season will be a barometer for what we are going to see out of coach Grant. That barometer will tell us and everyone else how desirable long term UD basketball will be to outside conferences. I want to be out of the A10 as much as anyone else, but I would also like to be able to compete versus thinking the grass is greener on the other side only to get our asses handed to us.

Butler in their 10 years prior to an invite...6 NCAA appearance, 2 national championship game appearances, 2 other sweet 16's, two other round of 32's, 6 regular season conference championships and 3 conference tournament championships.

Do I need to go over Xaviers 10 year resume prior to an invite?

Those are the results that get you invites.

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Old 03-18-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Oh good. It will be easy. [sarcasm]. How many teams can meet this criteria?
How many teams in the last 30 years have won 5 straight regular season titles?
If this is the results people are expecting, I can now see why there are negative posters on here.
I think TX’s point is, those are the results the BE muckety mucks will need to see before they’d be willing to extend an invitation. And while I don’t think the in-conference results are totally necessary, I think the postseason results need to be pretty close to that. Heck, we Danced 4 years in a row not too long ago, and what did it get us? Crickets.

And some may scoff at this, but I do think there’s also a slight degree of Jesuit bias entering into their decision-making process. It’s not nearly as important a factor as postseason success (and the $ that comes with it) or TV ratings (that almighty $ again), but I believe it’s there. If it wasn’t, then why is SLU the perceived favorite for an invite even though they’ve had 1 good season in 5 years?

On that subject, my late mother was on faculty at UD for 45 years, and she was on several academic and other committees during her time there. She was fair-minded to a fault, but whenever the subject of our “friends” from Norwood came up, she had 2 not-so-complimentary comments about them: (1) she said that UD, for years, tried to make sure its tuition cost was lower than Xavier’s, to make a point about which school cared about affordable education; and (2) she always said that X’s Jesuits knew how to find the $ (and she didn’t mean that as a compliment). Now, she retired a quarter-century ago, and I’m sure the landscape is different today than it was when she worked at UD (1949-94). But still, some people hold grudges, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all to see some of that “Hatfield and McCoy” attitude still lingering among our “brothers-in-Christ” on Victory Parkway.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
We can compare the program all we want in terms of financial support, butts in the seats, endowment, alumni bases, media reach, etc...

It still doesn't make up for the fact that other than the E8 run and a decent follow up, we haven't done what it takes over a long period of time, ON THE FLOOR, that makes us much more desirable than anyone else.

We can feel that way all we want, but it doesn't change the fact we are 0-6 in our last 4 A10 post season games and 0-2 in the last 2 NCAA. We haven't dominated the A10 by any means. One outright regular season, one tie regular season, and a runner up. That is not dominating the conference by any means and the best results came when the overlords to the south left. We can look at all the results over the last 10 years, and until UD wins the regular season and at least makes it to Saturday of the A10 more often than not, the results on the court aren't setting ourselves apart.

I believe that next season will be a barometer for what we are going to see out of coach Grant. That barometer will tell us and everyone else how desirable long term UD basketball will be to outside conferences. I want to be out of the A10 as much as anyone else, but I would also like to be able to compete versus thinking the grass is greener on the other side only to get our asses handed to us.

Butler in their 10 years prior to an invite...6 NCAA appearance, 2 national championship game appearances, 2 other sweet 16's, two other round of 32's, 6 regular season conference championships and 3 conference tournament championships.

Do I need to go over Xaviers 10 year resume prior to an invite?

Those are the results that get you invites.
Not really sure why both Depaul and Creighton are really more deserving from a basketball standpoint...Creighton's not all that much more deserving imo, if any, outside of a POTY in the coach's son than UD. Yes, they have 3 more NCAA appearances than UD in the 2000's but UD has as many rounds of making the final 32 and has a sweet 16/ elite 8 which Creighton does not have. DePaul's been terrible for years but just fortunate to be in a giant market.

Again, I really don't disagree much with your post but there's far more to it than basketball results which you need to mention. UD's problem was having an X program that had far more earlier success along with only being 35-40 miles away..

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Old 03-18-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
We want in a better conference? This is the receipe:

Win next 5 regular season titles
Win 4 of 5 conference tournaments
5 of 5 ncaaT, no NIT
Lose rd 1 once
Round 32 once
S16 twice
Elite 8 once

So far our resume does not scream, or whisper, BE
But Depaul's does
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:36 AM
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There's more to it than post season basketball

Chicago metro population: 6.5 million
St. Louis metro population: 2.8 million
Dayton metro population: 0.8 million
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Double bye in the A10 tourney or Lunardi had us in the next four out in February aren't exactly things that are going to make waves with Big East AD's or anywhere outside this site.
What about the AD's of the other half of the BE teams? You know, the ones who didn't even reach THAT status this year? Or ever?
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
What about the AD's of the other half of the BE teams? You know, the ones who didn't even reach THAT status this year? Or ever?
They're already in the Big East.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
No but you could talk to us why both Depaul and Creighton are really more deserving from a basketball standpoint...Creighton's not all that much more deserving imo, if any, outside of a POTY in the coach's son than UD.DePaul's been terrible for years but fortunate to be in a giant market.

Again, I really don't disagree much with your post but there's far more to it than basketball results which you need to mention. UD's problem was having an X program that had far more earlier success along with only being 35-40 miles away..
Since 1981, ncaat appearances, cu 15 ud 11...at the time of nbe expansion, it was cu 12 ud 7, they had almost double the ncaat appearances than us, that is kind of a no-brainer for the BE to take them instead of us.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
As someone who knows the area, the campus and the Arena let me ask a very difficult question- one that has me stumped: what specifically is holding us back on achieving more success on the court? If I could understand that perhaps I’d be more reluctant to leave the cozy mid-major world of the A10.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Chicago metro population: 6.5 million
St. Louis metro population: 2.8 million
Dayton metro population: 0.8 million
And there is more to it than population.

We put more fans in the seats for home games

We put more fans in the seats for road games

We put more eyeballs on TVs than most markets. Dayton is consistently a top 10 TV market for college bball (despite being 64th largest in the US overall). We are measured separately from Cincinnati and Columbus. So we are not overlapping a market with Xavier.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
We can compare the program all we want in terms of financial support, butts in the seats, endowment, alumni bases, media reach, etc...

It still doesn't make up for the fact that other than the E8 run and a decent follow up, we haven't done what it takes over a long period of time, ON THE FLOOR, that makes us much more desirable than anyone else.

We can feel that way all we want, but it doesn't change the fact we are 0-6 in our last 4 A10 post season games and 0-2 in the last 2 NCAA. We haven't dominated the A10 by any means. One outright regular season, one tie regular season, and a runner up. That is not dominating the conference by any means and the best results came when the overlords to the south left. We can look at all the results over the last 10 years, and until UD wins the regular season and at least makes it to Saturday of the A10 more often than not, the results on the court aren't setting ourselves apart.

I believe that next season will be a barometer for what we are going to see out of coach Grant. That barometer will tell us and everyone else how desirable long term UD basketball will be to outside conferences. I want to be out of the A10 as much as anyone else, but I would also like to be able to compete versus thinking the grass is greener on the other side only to get our asses handed to us.

Butler in their 10 years prior to an invite...6 NCAA appearance, 2 national championship game appearances, 2 other sweet 16's, two other round of 32's, 6 regular season conference championships and 3 conference tournament championships.

Do I need to go over Xaviers 10 year resume prior to an invite?

Those are the results that get you invites.
Shocka, if this is about team performance on the court, Saint Louis and Dayton are not in the same stratosphere. St. Louis has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA basketball games (btw Creighton has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA games either). Dayton has done it 2x in the last 5 years ...

A thread on twitter I wrote about this below, a lot more detail about how the comparison on the court is not even close whatever time period you look at. Dayton >>> Saint Louis. Barring a monumental run by Saint Louis the next couple of years, it is insulting to put Dayton in the same discussion as Saint Louis. Big East will take Uconn or Gonzaga if they would accept. Both will decline and then likely down to Dayton and Saint Louis. If the Big East cares about on-court performance, this decision is a no-brainer.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048

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Old 03-18-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Shocka, if this is about team performance on the court, Saint Louis and Dayton are not in the same stratosphere. St. Louis has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA basketball games (btw Creighton has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA games either). Dayton has done it 2x in the last 5 years ...

A thread on twitter I wrote about this below, a lot more detail about how the comparison on the court is not even close whatever time period you look at. Dayton >>> Saint Louis. Barring a monumental run by Saint Louis the next couple of years, it is insulting to put Dayton in the same discussion as Saint Louis. Big East will take Uconn or Gonzaga if they would accept. Both will decline and then likely down to Dayton and Saint Louis. If the Big East cares about on-court performance, this decision is a no-brainer.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048
This is pretty accurate, although I would caution you from using the "winning 2 consecutive NCAAt games" description. The way that's written suggests we made two Sweet 16's in 5 years. That's not accurate, as we all know, courtesy of a home play in game.

Now the Big East may like the market and geography that comes with SLU, as St. Louis is a nice little stop on your way to Omaha.

As far as TV's in this market, I can tell you that SLU is so far behind Mizzou, and even Illinois, I'm not sure how much the "market" really makes much of a case for them.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:41 PM
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Have alot of SLU fans as friends but even they will watch mizzouri or illinois if on at same time as SLU.

SLU does not represent the city like UD does Dayton. St Louis has the Cardinals and Blues for that. SLU interest is down the chain somewhere. Don't even fill there 10k arena.

Remember back in 50 60 era SLU was a top team.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:44 PM
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Be interesting to see how many eyeballs they draw for the tournament. Could settle the argument as to its marketability.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
This is pretty accurate, although I would caution you from using the "winning 2 consecutive NCAAt games" description. The way that's written suggests we made two Sweet 16's in 5 years. That's not accurate, as we all know, courtesy of a home play in game.

Now the Big East may like the market and geography that comes with SLU, as St. Louis is a nice little stop on your way to Omaha.

As far as TV's in this market, I can tell you that SLU is so far behind Mizzou, and even Illinois, I'm not sure how much the "market" really makes much of a case for them.
SLU, we agree on the TV market. As I pointed out, in the thread Dayton averages about 10k households per college basketball game and Saint Louis averages about 14,000. 4,000 households per game will not move the needle on any TV deal. Moreover, I think the Dayton TV market would see a huge increase in households watching the Big East whereas it would be a negligible increase in Saint Louis for the reasons you point out.

Respectfully, we agree to disagree on the two consecutive NCAA games. You inferred two consecutive games means Sweet 16 (never mentioned the Sweet 16 or implied it meant Sweet 16). It is precisely written and 100% accurate and I don't believe misleading. Written that way largely because in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, there were consolation games in the NCAA. So St. Louis (and Creighton) have won a game, then lost a game, and then won a consolation game in the NCAA so won 2 games in a NCAA before. It still holds Dayton has won 2 NCAA games in a row 2x in the last 5 years (Dayton received 2 NCAA credits those two years, the First 4 is recognized as a legitimate NCAA Tourney game evidenced by the full credit pay-out). Saint Louis has never ever won two consecutive NCAA games and has not been in the Sweet 16 since 1957!

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Old 03-18-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
SLU, we agree on the TV market. As I pointed out, in the thread Dayton averages about 10k households per college basketball game and Saint Louis averages about 14,000. 4,000 households per game will not move the needle on any TV deal. Moreover, I think the Dayton TV market would see a huge increase in households watching the Big East whereas it would be a negligible increase in Saint Louis for the reasons you point out.

Respectfully, we agree to disagree on the two consecutive NCAA games. You inferred two consecutive games means Sweet 16 (never mentioned the Sweet 16 or implied it meant Sweet 16). It is precisely written and 100% accurate and I don't believe misleading. Written that way largely because in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, there were consolation games in the NCAA. So St. Louis (and Creighton) have won a game, then lost a game, and then won a consolation game in the NCAA so won 2 games in a NCAA before. It still holds Dayton has won 2 NCAA games in a row 2x in the last 5 years (Dayton received 2 NCAA credits those two years, the First 4 is recognized as a legitimate NCAA Tourney game evidenced by the full credit pay-out). Saint Louis has never ever won two consecutive NCAA games and has not been in the Sweet 16 since 1957!
It's fine. While it's "precisely" written, I think it's written to be mis-leading to the average fan. No, Sweet 16 is not mentioned, but historically speaking and to the average fan of the current era of college basketball, winning consecutive games typically means Sweet 16. I interpret that to be "precisely" written that way, specifically to be mis-leading. That's exactly how I would have written that.......if I was testifying before Congress.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
A thread on twitter I wrote about this below, a lot more detail about how the comparison on the court is not even close whatever time period you look at. Dayton >>> Saint Louis. Barring a monumental run by Saint Louis the next couple of years, it is insulting to put Dayton in the same discussion as Saint Louis. Big East will take Uconn or Gonzaga if they would accept. Both will decline and then likely down to Dayton and Saint Louis. If the Big East cares about on-court performance, this decision is a no-brainer.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048
If the BE invites UConn they will accept and figure football out later.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:00 PM
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Market Size matters for conference networks but not for Big East basketball on FS1

The Big 10 can negotiate higher carriage fees from cable providers in NYC/NJ from adding Rutgers. Adding Dayton or St. Louis isn't doing anything for FS1 demanding higher fees for from cable companies
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:02 PM
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There's some question I think on the commitment of St. Louis basketball. They don't have a dedicated basketball practice facility and last time I saw on Twitter, still aren't chartering all the flights to away games
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
It's fine. While it's "precisely" written, I think it's written to be mis-leading to the average fan. No, Sweet 16 is not mentioned, but historically speaking and to the average fan of the current era of college basketball, winning consecutive games typically means Sweet 16. I interpret that to be "precisely" written that way, specifically to be mis-leading. That's exactly how I would have written that.......if I was testifying before Congress.
Audience is basically Dayton fans and I would say 99% of fans know Dayton was in the First Four and that is one of the times we won 2 consecutive NCAA games; again precision about 2 consecutive games and consolation games in tournaments 50+ years ago. Anyway, we agree to disagree on this point. My intent was not to mislead and I am sorry if it came off that way.

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Old 03-18-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Audience is basically Dayton fans and I would say 99% of fans know Dayton was in the First Four and that is one of the times we won 2 consecutive NCAA games; again precision about 2 consecutive games and consolation games in tournaments 50+ years ago. Anyway, we agree to disagree on this point. My intent was not to mislead.
touché and all good. we get plenty of discord out here triggered by a select few others.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
There's some question I think on the commitment of St. Louis basketball. They don't have a dedicated basketball practice facility and last time I saw on Twitter, still aren't chartering all the flights to away games
Yeah, I think it may be a different environment there, now that Fr. Biondi retired and Majerus (sadly) passed away. Dr. Pestello seems like a good guy and a capable administrator, but Fr. Biondi wasn’t afraid to make some waves (which may have had something to do with SLU being on the outside looking in when the BE went through its transformation a half-decade ago). Plus, with them still paying the tab for the construction of Chaifetz, there may not be that much money in the budget for a practice facility, as landlocked as that campus is.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:41 PM
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Mark Adams
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A-10 Average Budget $4.72M
1. Dayton $7.25M
2. SLU $6.9M
3. VCU $6.15M
4. URI $5.45M
5. Duquesne $5.2M
6. Richmond $4.75M
7. Fordham $4.55M
8. UMass $4.35
9. St Joe's $4.2M
10. George Mason $4.0M
11. St Bonaventure $3.8M
12. Davidson $3.35M
13. La Salle $3.27M
14. GW $3.2M


Some notable schools Dayton is ahead of or around in terms of basketball budget

SEC Average Budget $10.1M
14.Mississippi St $6.8M

PAC 12 Average Budget $7.48M
6. ASU $7,972,900
7. USC $6,488,543
8. Cal $6,444,068
9. Colorado $6,325,662
10. Stanford $6,375,064
11. OSU $5,407,239
12. WSU $4,914,186

Big 12
8. Kansas St $7,591,505
9. Iowa St $6,851,315
10. Oklahoma St $6,087,462

Big 10
10. Maryland $8.37M
11. Rutgers $8.3M
12. Iowa $8.1M
13. Nebraska $7.8M
14. PSU $7.2M

ACC
11. WF $8.3M
12. Miami $8.2M
13. Clemson $7.7M
14. ND $6.9M
15. Boston Col $6.6M

Big East
6. St John's $8,321,657
7. Xavier $8,062,088
8. DePaul $7,080,194
9. Seton Hall $6,301,138
10. Butler University $5,507,238
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:47 PM
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I don’t understand the fixation on the BE. We would be at best, a middle of the pack team but more likely nearer the bottom. Heck our record vs X. How’d we do in the Great Midwest? And our ability to be competitive in other sports than basketball is arguably even poorer. We belong in the A10!
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
I don’t understand the fixation on the BE. We would be at best, a middle of the pack team but more likely nearer the bottom. Heck our record vs X. How’d we do in the Great Midwest? And our ability to be competitive in other sports than basketball is arguably even poorer. We belong in the A10!
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
I don’t understand the fixation on the BE. We would be at best, a middle of the pack team but more likely nearer the bottom. Heck our record vs X. How’d we do in the Great Midwest? And our ability to be competitive in other sports than basketball is arguably even poorer. We belong in the A10!
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We would be 3rd in the NBE in attendance. Overtime with same TV budget and access to recruits you would think the schools with the larger attendance would rise to the top. As you have bigger budget and would be more attractive to the same recruit pool. Point is this - when you look at our attendance and budget we fit much better in with the NBE now with out their TV revenue - then we do with the A10.

Bigger Budget should mean better coaching staff and better facilities.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
I don’t understand the fixation on the BE. We would be at best, a middle of the pack team but more likely nearer the bottom. Heck our record vs X. How’d we do in the Great Midwest? And our ability to be competitive in other sports than basketball is arguably even poorer. We belong in the A10!
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You obviously don't understand the lure of what a big conference can do for a team. Much better players would be going to Dayton. great players want to be on national TV and they also want to play against the best. To compare this to something 20-25 years ago is really really naive.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
We would be 3rd in the NBE in attendance. Overtime with same TV budget and access to recruits you would think the schools with the larger attendance would rise to the top. As you have bigger budget and would be more attractive to the same recruit pool. Point is this - when you look at our attendance and budget we fit much better in with the NBE now with out their TV revenue - then we do with the A10.

Bigger Budget should mean better coaching staff and better facilities.
Where does our budget rank in the A10 and what has that done for us in our actual conference?

Look at Creighton and Butler and their short time in the BE and you could easily ‘prove’ just the opposite.

Every year there are several bad teams in the BIG, even more in the Big 12 and many more in the SEC and PAC10 but somehow we are gonna rise to the top of the BE because of our great attendance and budget?

The A10 is not holding back our success.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:39 PM
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Same thread. Different year.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UD90 View Post
Georgetown, Xavier, Marquette don't want UD period. All the arguments about showing results are secondary arguments. Why would they expand? 4 NCAA teams 4 NIT teams. Only two left out.
All BE teams are in a post season tournament.

4 NCAA (Nova, Marq, SJU, SHU)
5 NIT (X, But, Creigh, Prov, Gtown)
1 CBI (DeP)
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:21 AM
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Dayton would have been in the following place out of 11 teams (including Dayton) using kenpom rankings to place Dayton in the Big East.
2019 = 5th
2018 = 11th
2017 = 5th
2016 = 7th
2015 = 6th
2014 = 3rd

So if the Big East were an 11 team league and Dayton was in it, Dayton would have averaged 6th place out of 11 teams, 5 above and 5 below. This does not account for the better recruiting Dayton would have joining the Big East. Dayton absolutely could compete!

Since the new Big East started in 2014, Villanova, Dayton, and Xavier are the only Big East or A-10 schools to make an Elite 8.
In 6 years,
Villanova 6/6 NCAAs (15-3)
Xavier 5/6 NCAAs (7-5)
Providence 5/6 NCAAs (1-5)
Dayton 4/6 NCAAs (5-4)
Butler 4/6 NCAAs (5-4)
Seton Hall 4/6 NCAAs (1-3)
Creighton 3/6 NCAAs (1-3)
Marquette 2/6 NCAAs (0-1)
St Johns 2/6 NCAAs (0-1)
Georgetown 1/6 NCAAs (1-1)
DePaul 0/6 NCAAs (0-0)

Dayton is tied for the 3rd most successful team in the last 6 years in the Big East looking at combination of NCAA appearances and wins; Villanova clear #1 and Xavier clear #2. Butler and Dayton tied for #3. The other 7 teams in the Big East (Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown, St John, Creighton, Marquette, and Depaul) have less wins combined in the NCAAs the last 6 years (noting year 6 is still TBD) 4 than Dayton who has 5!!
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:25 AM
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SLU then would figure far below toward bottom 3rd.

If Neil presented it like that we'd be the better choice
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Shocka, if this is about team performance on the court, Saint Louis and Dayton are not in the same stratosphere. St. Louis has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA basketball games (btw Creighton has NEVER won 2 consecutive NCAA games either). Dayton has done it 2x in the last 5 years ...

A thread on twitter I wrote about this below, a lot more detail about how the comparison on the court is not even close whatever time period you look at. Dayton >>> Saint Louis. Barring a monumental run by Saint Louis the next couple of years, it is insulting to put Dayton in the same discussion as Saint Louis. Big East will take Uconn or Gonzaga if they would accept. Both will decline and then likely down to Dayton and Saint Louis. If the Big East cares about on-court performance, this decision is a no-brainer.

https://twitter.com/TomEggemeier/sta...56969386754048
I'm not comparing UD to SLU. I am comparing UD to the "peers" who got the invite and the nod to join the bigger conference.

The discussion shouldn't even be UD vs. SLU. I should be UD vs NBE.

With that said, others are correct in that it isn't just results on the floor. TV market and population has influence as well as market share. Regardless of that, it is WAY too easy for those making the decision to invite UD to the BE to simply look at the basketball resume as a reason not to give them an invite. Way too easy.

UD fans have a really bad habit of wanting to avoid the comparison of X, Y, Z to the conference metric. They love to compare UD vs. (insert school here). That's not the way it works.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Oh good. It will be easy. [sarcasm]. How many teams can meet this criteria?
How many teams in the last 30 years have won 5 straight regular season titles?
If this is the results people are expecting, I can now see why there are negative posters on here.
For starters...Xavier...2007-2011. 5 straight conference titles under 2 coaches.

Xavier 3 of 5 conference tournaments...

Xavier also meets the "making or advancing" in the tournament 5 straight seasons to incluce E8, S16's with only bowing out in the first game once.

This isn't negative. It is showing EXACTLY why the resume of Xavier in the Cincinnati market, with eyeballs on the TV, got them an invite. Go look at Butler's. Wash, rinse, repeat...Indy market with BE eyes on the tv.

The love fest with the BE is something else. Would it be nice and add to the fun for fans. Sure thing. Would it be nice to renew rivalries. Yep. Does it guarantee success? Nope. Does it guarantee recruits? Nope. Will it put any more interest in Dayton? Nope. I will say it again, I hope that something else develops outside of the BE that involves UD, SLU, Davidson, and VCU...maybe one or two more A10 teams that can be consistent...with teams from other conferences. There is only so much room with the bigger conferences. The sooner UD can get away from Duq, Lasalle, Fordham, etc...the better...but it may have to come from some creativity that doesn't include the BE.

Guys...we can't get it done consistently in the A10. To think that upgrading competition for 16-20 games a season is going to increase the chances for success you are wrong. You can run the numbers all day long and get more BE teams in the field of 64 than the A10, but it doesn't mean you are going to have any more success. There is no reason why UD can't and shouldn't be getting bids out of a weaker conference. You have to win. If you don't win, you get more NIT appearances.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I'm not comparing UD to SLU. I am comparing UD to the "peers" who got the invite and the nod to join the bigger conference.

The discussion shouldn't even be UD vs. SLU. I should be UD vs NBE.

With that said, others are correct in that it isn't just results on the floor. TV market and population has influence as well as market share. Regardless of that, it is WAY too easy for those making the decision to invite UD to the BE to simply look at the basketball resume as a reason not to give them an invite. Way too easy.

UD fans have a really bad habit of wanting to avoid the comparison of X, Y, Z to the conference metric. They love to compare UD vs. (insert school here). That's not the way it works.
That's your opinion, the reality is that it is and has always been X, UD and SLU. To ignore that is pure insanity. You speak as though you are on the committee and know what they think and hown they think.

Heres a news flash. It was X, UD and SLU always in the discussion then suddenly it all changed. Who would have thought X would lead the charge to block UD. No one ever considered Creighton in the equation yet both happened all without checking in with you.

The metric you speak of wasn't even a factor till X made it so. Politics, jealousy and the jesuit factor all came into play. No one saw that coming. The discussion was and always had been institutional fit. Well all that went out the window.

If given their choice it would be UConn, Gonzaga first. Then SLU, UD and VCU, not necessarily in that order. The original plan for an all catholic conference went out the window as well. Of the three I don't see UD getting an invite anytime soon. Jesuits rule. Exception could be non jesuit schools may not want another jesuit school which would balance the power.

You seem to discount the recruiting factor. Being in BE would up our recruiting and thereby results. X wasn't always a factor. They caught fire at the time we got JOB. As we've seen no one us always on top. X is in the NIT this year just like us. Butler dropped like a lead ball. Creighton is on the hot seat for possible violations.

The metric you speak of didn't take into consideration what adding Creighton would do $$$ wise to non revenue sports. If they had to do it over again the results could be different.

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Old 03-19-2019, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
That's your opinion, the reality is that it is and has always been X, UD and SLU. To ignore that is pure insanity. You speak as though you are on the committee and know what they think and hown they think.

Heres a news flash. It was X, UD and SLU always in the discussion then suddenly it all changed. Who would have thought X would lead the charge to block UD. No one ever considered Creighton in the equation yet both happened all without checking in with you.

The metric you speak of wasn't even a factor till X made it so. Politics, jealousy and the jesuit factor all came into play. No one saw that coming. The discussion was and always had been institutional fit. Well all that went out the window.

If given their choice it would be UConn, Gonzaga first. Then SLU, UD and VCU, not necessarily in that order. The original plan for an all catholic conference went out the window as well. Of the three I don't see UD getting an invite anytime soon. Jesuits rule. Exception could be non jesuit schools may not want another jesuit school which would balance the power.
Is this message board not for opinions? As yours?

UD isn't on the same planet as half of those schools in terms of basketball success in the last 10-15 years. Creighton has been to more NCAA's and have had more success than UD in all of the other post season tournaments. Top 25 in attendance. Successful in their conference. UCOnn and the Zags...come on.

Money is the root of all of this. Not Jesuit vs. Marianist. It is what schools are going to make us the most money. That has to do with how successful they are on the court, how much money they have and earn, how many eyes they can draw to the TV...whether it is through their local TV market or across the country. If UD fits that role no one will give a rats ass what religious affiliation UD is. Ask Butler.

I don't expect Xavier to welcome UD in the BE with open arms. We compete in much of the same recruiting territory. They don't want to give that up.

Would love to hear the arguments if UD was wearing the XU shoe in another conference and Wright State wanted in.

I agree...we aren't getting an invite anytime soon. Which is why UD better find a way to get it done in the A10, find something else, or see to it that everyone on this message board and in UD fandom accepts UD hoops for what it currently is and what is has been in the past. Face it, this program was set back decades ago, the NCAA landscape changed, and UD was playing catch up the entire time.

What's the solution to the A10? Or are fans simply trying to find a solution for a non-existent problem?
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:08 AM
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Yes it is for opinions but your post didn't and still doesn't sound like an opinion. You pontificate as if you are all knowing. You know what the committee thinjs, what Fox thinks, what every UD fan thinks. That's more than just an opinion. And if you don't think it's a jesuit factor you are truly naive.

Fox wanted Dayton in the BE, but was voted against by guess who. UD and X haven't been recruiting the same players for years. Both are looking for different type players.

What is the projection going forward. Archie had us going in the right direction, then he left. AG is building his program. Nothing last year, NIT this year with NCAA on the horizon going forth.

Butler took big step back this year. Will they recover or is it in a tail spin.

X took a hit for first time in long time promoting from within. Bump in the road or a JOB on the horizon.

Creighton could suffer big time if hit with sanctions.

Archie isn't doing any better than AG. Fans are restless and Impatient.

SLU could make big waves in the tourney. Timing is everything.

I personally am not a big fan of BE. Why go where not wanted. I've advocated for an east west conference. Gonzaga out west UD, SLU midwest, VCU type schools east coast.

So you don't think BE wants UCONN or Gonzaga. Check out there bosrds. Those are the ones talked about most. Going to happen. Probably not. Just like UD not getting an invite.

When expansion comes we'll see who has the power
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:46 AM
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Avid...you are missing my overall point. We haven't exceeded the basketball results of all of the other schools either that have made the cut or are on the short list. SLU is the only one that we have exceeded. Does that make sense?

Guess what...if we meet or exceed those basketball expectations it doesn't matter if we are in the SEC, ACC, MAC, A10, or SWAC....we will have been in the NCAA more than often...had chances to progress in the NCAA...and would have had multiple in conference trophies. I would assume that is the overall goal of most, if not all, UD fans...NCAA appearances and wins.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Yes it is for opinions but your post didn't and still doesn't sound like an opinion. You pontificate as if you are all knowing. You know what the committee thinjs, what Fox thinks, what every UD fan thinks. That's more than just an opinion. And if you don't think it's a jesuit factor you are truly naive.

Fox wanted Dayton in the BE, but was voted against by guess who. UD and X haven't been recruiting the same players for years. Both are looking for different type players.

What is the projection going forward. Archie had us going in the right direction, then he left. AG is building his program. Nothing last year, NIT this year with NCAA on the horizon going forth.

Butler took big step back this year. Will they recover or is it in a tail spin.

X took a hit for first time in long time promoting from within. Bump in the road or a JOB on the horizon.

Creighton could suffer big time if hit with sanctions.

Archie isn't doing any better than AG. Fans are restless and Impatient.

SLU could make big waves in the tourney. Timing is everything.

I personally am not a big fan of BE. Why go where not wanted. I've advocated for an east west conference. Gonzaga out west UD, SLU midwest, VCU type schools east coast.

So you don't think BE wants UCONN or Gonzaga. Check out there bosrds. Those are the ones talked about most. Going to happen. Probably not. Just like UD not getting an invite.

When expansion comes we'll see who has the power
Apparently X is looking for better players!
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Avid...you are missing my overall point. We haven't exceeded the basketball results of all of the other schools either that have made the cut or are on the short list. SLU is the only one that we have exceeded. Does that make sense?

Guess what...if we meet or exceed those basketball expectations it doesn't matter if we are in the SEC, ACC, MAC, A10, or SWAC....we will have been in the NCAA more than often...had chances to progress in the NCAA...and would have had multiple in conference trophies. I would assume that is the overall goal of most, if not all, UD fans...NCAA appearances and wins.
Yes I agree. If Butler could do it in the horizon then conference isn't all that important. It's taking Dayton too long to string theirs successes together. There are a few good teams in A10 that make conference doable but too many bottom feeds that drag the conference down.

I'd like see a new conference of like schools coast to coast. Keep the non revenue sports regionally. BE found out how expensive it is with Creighton. Doubt A10 addresses their situation. Seem content to stay as they are.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
We would be 3rd in the NBE in attendance.

If we had BE teams coming in every week we would sell out the arena for every game.



What is the highest number of 4* recruits we've ever had on the team? Have we ever had a 5*? Compare that to _avier, who has basically nothing but 4* recruits on their roster. And compare that to Dayton who is starting 0 players we recruited with 4*.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:27 AM
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I don't think the NBE is calling anytime soon.... but it's insanity to think that we wouldn't have a better quality team year in and year out solely because of the conference. It's our biggest hindrance in recruiting without a doubt.

There's recruits out there that probably would love everything about dayton, but is out before even given a chance because of the conference. Top 100 recruits generally don't consider mid-majors.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:25 AM
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Holy land of hoops,a free site has a thread welcoming SLU to the conference. Lol but like here just opinion. Performance is very important so we need to get back on track and fast. OUr largest hurdle is geography. But if things work our way, we are a perfect fit. I would propose if I were in the room that our geography is actually a great fit. Build natural rivialires with X..Butler ..DePaul, and makes travel a lot easier for the secondary sports . The Jesuit thing may be factor but when you win and have national appeal, ie Butler a non catholic school it gets attention. I think we get in. Perfect fit.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:33 AM
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Everyone is talking what team would a conference pick to join this or that conference. Please remember a conference just isn't about basketball ( even though it is the sport on top) one needs to look at the school's sports program in total. Look how women's basketball, volleyball, soccer programs have done the last dozen years or so.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:42 AM
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This topic/thread reminds me of the time my daughter told me she was going to hold her breath unless I bought her a new phone because all her friends got one. The new phone ain't happening...neither is a BE invite.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:17 AM
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At this point, we have to assume it is A10 or bust. Supposedly, UD Admin has said they aren't interested in the AAC. The NBE isn't calling now and likely won't ever. So unless something changes dramatically with another significant conference realignment that opens an opportunity, then we'd better start dominating the conference we're in. Had the A10 been a tougher conference, we still wouldn't be in. Why? Because we didn't dominate the regular season. We came in 3rd in a bad league. It doesn't matter why, it is just the straight up reality.

If we dominate the A10 every year, we'll get a NCAA invite regardless of if we win the A10 tourney. As much as I dislike the A10 due to the lack of regard for improving the bottom tier basketball schools, it's still a conference that gets multiple invites every year, unlike most of the other non P5+1 conferences. So let's just make sure we are one of those teams in the multi-invite. If we had beaten VCU and Rhody at home, we likely would have been in. Maybe it would still have required winning the first game in the tournament, but we didn't. Should have beaten Tulsa too. We had plenty of chances earlier in the season to punch our ticket and we just didn't get it done. That needs to be our focus no matter what conference we are in.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:26 PM
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Non-conference scheduling is getting harder due to other conferences going to 20 game schedules. Add to that many P5 teams refuse to come to UD Arena at all. I personally would like to see better games at the arena and a better conference is the best way to do that.

The A10 is basically fine right now. There are some schools/programs that don't care about bball like they should, but the middle of the conference is reasonable and the top of the conference functions essentially like the P5. We get some good conference games, and if we keep winning we do get some attention and a chance at an at large bid. If BE expands its very likely to take some school from the A10, be in SLU or Dayton (or someone like VCU, who knows). So if we're left behind, it would be in a weakened A10.

Jumping to the BE or American is really about trying to future-proof our program. Not hard to see us getting pushed out of the few really good non-conference home games we have now and seeing a weakened A10 conference schedule.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:42 PM
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We must be the best conference team that everyone else wants in their conference based on all the good attributes we have listed over these last few years ... OH WAIT!

I know another way to attract attention since it doesn't seem like we have gotten the results we so desperately need ...

Instead of playing "you know who" on MLK Day, we schedule something like a Sadie Hawkin's tournament with us against the best of whatever conference we think is holding back from sending an invite that we so richly deserve.

You know an announcement based on this .........

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Old 03-19-2019, 03:39 PM
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UD's model of scheduling will work going forward. We are in solid with the ESPN tournaments, that gives us multiple shots at the P5 schools. Successful efforts to get one or two mid level P5 schools on a h/h. that could be harder to do. Would like us to schedule more top flight non-P5 schools, and that is where improvements in the schedule are more likely.
The conference is what it is, and in all likelyhood will remain so(with us in it) for a while. Our challange is to take advantage of opportunities when they arrive. this year we played close in those games but but did not win. Our margin of error is small and will likely remain that way. We have more horses next year. It will be interesting to see how we do
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:57 PM
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X had a horrible class of 17. Five guys who verballed did not make it to campus for a variety of reasons. Steele is a good coach. His assistants were all new and needed to settle into their roles. The team had serious issues on defense in 2018. It took them 15 games to communicate and buy into the system. 2019 has some nice recruits coming in. Point guard was a soft spot this year. Some more wing help is coming in.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shwag33 View Post
I don't think the NBE is calling anytime soon.... but it's insanity to think that we wouldn't have a better quality team year in and year out solely because of the conference. It's our biggest hindrance in recruiting without a doubt.

There's recruits out there that probably would love everything about dayton, but is out before even given a chance because of the conference. Top 100 recruits generally don't consider mid-majors.
To your point

"Keith Williams (in-coming UC recruit) picked UC over UD because of the higher level of prestige,but if a Power 5 conference were in the mix, he would have gone there," said a recruiting analyst.

Big East vs the American. Again, no contest. While this new edition of the Big East might not match the 80's version, it still carries star power and name recognition. Playing the conference tournament at historic Madison Square Garden only adds to that. The American is the conference UC can't wait to get out of, offering opponents like Tulane, South Florida and East Carolina.

A former coach posed this to me: "Let's me ask you a simple question: If you were a recruit, which conference would you rather play in? Which arena would you play in? This isn't that hard."

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Old 03-19-2019, 04:43 PM
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How can an average fan impact UD basketball?

1) Pay outrageous seat licenses and ticket prices ... so UD has the cash.
2) Go to the out of town ESPN tourneys ... pay the hotel and ticket prices ... so UD gets asked backed to other ESPN tourneys.

Cash talks
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Oh good. It will be easy. [sarcasm]. How many teams can meet this criteria?
How many teams in the last 30 years have won 5 straight regular season titles?
If this is the results people are expecting, I can now see why there are negative posters on here.

I got my first ever red pip for this post, with the comment "Enjoy being mediocre". lol.


I would love to win 5 straight regular season titles! I don't want to be mediocre, just think the expectations of some are so high that they are virtually unattainable. Almost every team in the NCAA is mediocre according to these standards. We did make 4 straight tournaments and go to the elite 8 just 5 years ago.



However if push comes to shove, I guess I do prefer to enjoy being mediocre to the alternative of never being happy or enjoying the team at all. And I will be up watching and rooting tonight. Go Flyers!
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Wallage View Post
Non-conference scheduling is getting harder due to other conferences going to 20 game schedules. Add to that many P5 teams refuse to come to UD Arena at all. I personally would like to see better games at the arena and a better conference is the best way to do that.

The A10 is basically fine right now. There are some schools/programs that don't care about bball like they should, but the middle of the conference is reasonable and the top of the conference functions essentially like the P5. We get some good conference games, and if we keep winning we do get some attention and a chance at an at large bid. If BE expands its very likely to take some school from the A10, be in SLU or Dayton (or someone like VCU, who knows). So if we're left behind, it would be in a weakened A10.

Jumping to the BE or American is really about trying to future-proof our program. Not hard to see us getting pushed out of the few really good non-conference home games we have now and seeing a weakened A10 conference schedule.
With likely Auburn and Mississippi State coming off the schedule (Howland was quoted in the paper as saying they weren't renewing) this upcoming season's schedule should be a good barometer as to how difficult the new scheduling environment will be
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:30 PM
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And there are other factors as well....

As has been repeated many times, dominate the A10 and we've got no problems.

The duration of success at both Butler and Gonzaga show that it can be done without being in a big name conference. Conference affiliation helps, of course; but there is proof that it isn't necessary.

Another factor: Coaches and ADs don't speak openly about having to compete for recruits against schools having "special" standards for athletes....or no standards at all. Such talk sounds like sour grapes. But that too is a factor.

An AD once told me that Gonzaga "sold it's soul" for its BB success, to use his words. There are schools ranked among the best in the country that for years have willingly "sold their souls" for success in athletics...think of UNC. How the administration, faculty and alums could tolerate what has gone on for years at UNC is beyond me. But they have and they do.

The scandals at Penn State and Michigan State reflect almost complete lack of institutional control. Yet those schools have solid academic reputations.

I am as sure as I can be that there are players that have come to the Arena leading their teams to victory over the Flyers that UD would not recruit because of academic or other reasons.

Sustained success at the big-time level of athletics is a stinking business. We want that success, especially as we see apparent peers that have attained it. But there are compromises to be made. It's likely that UD has not been as willing as some peers to make those compromises. And that's good.

Having said that I'll acknowledge that the A10 (which we should dominate-but-don't) does not appear to be a cut-throat-success-at any-price conference. But that doesn't mean each member plays by the rules. The desire for success can be uncontrollably seductive. Recall the SBU debacle.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
As has been repeated many times, dominate the A10 and we've got no problems...

Exactly!!! It could start next year. With two more healthy players this year - we may have won the 2 VCU games. Looking at the last 5 years the trajectory is closer than people think.

2015 - 2nd
2016 - tied 1st
2017 - outright 1st
2018 - rebuild year - 9th?
2019 - 3rd
2020 - ?
2021 - ?

Colonial
2007 - VCU Grant 1st
2008 - VCU Grant 1st
2009 - VCU Grant 1st

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Old 03-19-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UD90 View Post
Exactly!!! It could start next year. With two more healthy players this year - we may have won the 2 VCU games. Looking at the last 5 years the trajectory is closer than people think.

2015 - 2nd
2016 - tied 1st
2017 - outright 1st
2018 - rebuild year - 9th?
2019 - 3rd
That 9th and not making NCAAT this year sets us back for all the momentum we had. If anyone here really wants us to get invited to a better conference we can’t have 9th place finishes and one and done A10T that results in NIT bids. Teams like that do not move the needle on the larger basketball spectrum.

UD fans always throw out that we have great fans who dominate Dayton tv market and travel well. We still need to have some national relevance outside of Dayton to make Fox and BE want Dayton to be apart of their partnership.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
That 9th and not making NCAAT this year sets us back for all the momentum we had. If anyone here really wants us to get invited to a better conference we can’t have 9th place finishes and one and done A10T that results in NIT bids. Teams like that do not move the needle on the larger basketball spectrum.
That momentum failure started with Archie and carried over to Grant. That momentum failure dealt with losing recruits and the death of a player. That momentum failure had nothing to do with the current coach and administration and lands squarely on the hand we were dealt with an outgoing coach (that probably knew he was outgoing) and factors that UD, the administration, and the current staff had no control over.

I agree that 9th place and NIT's doesn't move the needle one bit. Which goes back exactly to what Avid and I were discussing. It doesn't matter who UD is, what affiliation we are, how good we are in non-revenue, how big of a TV market, etc....if we finish in the middle of the pack in the A10 and don't win conference championships....we are dead to the BE and dead to any other speculative conference. Basketball success comes first. Not any of the other reasons. If everything else is fantastic and we still are flat on the basketball court, we still don't get invited to anything.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:33 PM
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Well said, but,...

Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
That momentum failure started with Archie and carried over to Grant. That momentum failure dealt with losing recruits and the death of a player. That momentum failure had nothing to do with the current coach and administration and lands squarely on the hand we were dealt with an outgoing coach (that probably knew he was outgoing) and factors that UD, the administration, and the current staff had no control over.

I agree that 9th place and NIT's doesn't move the needle one bit. Which goes back exactly to what Avid and I were discussing. It doesn't matter who UD is, what affiliation we are, how good we are in non-revenue, how big of a TV market, etc....if we finish in the middle of the pack in the A10 and don't win conference championships....we are dead to the BE and dead to any other speculative conference. Basketball success comes first. Not any of the other reasons. If everything else is fantastic and we still are flat on the basketball court, we still don't get invited to anything.
When someone else, or some other organization, is doing exactly what you want to do...succeeding exactly as you want to succeed, what do you do...what does any thinking person do? Of course! You copy them....do exactly what they are doing....exactly! Assuming, of course, that you have the required resources. And we do...and then some.

Doesn't that suggest there is another aspect to this? In the post Frericks era we've had three more than competent ADs, Ted, Tim, Neil,...along with four men's coaches...spanning almost three decades. We've had successes that would be the envy of most similar institutions....but light years away from the likes of peers, Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Villanova....where we want to be.

Given the smart, dedicated people involved at UD and the resources at their disposal, I suggest for the consideration of all that there must be something else...something fundamental that we may not fully appreciate or have control over. The time span is so long, the leadership so varied, the resources so plentiful....it's not reasonable to blame our situation on incompetence or bad luck (or the wrong conference).

Think about it. What fundamental thing(s) present obstacles preventing Dayton from regularly recruiting the kind of players needed to reach our goals. (I think I read that Villanova lost three starters from last year's championship team...three!....and look at VU's success this year.)

This is what I think Neil should do....I've said this before. Sometimes there is great benefit by bringing in a set of fresh eyes. I would (privately) hire an objective, independent outside expert to assess our program. Someone having unquestionable experience and accomplishments....have him study the situation for as long as it takes, months, a year, whatever....pay him whatever he asks....something like $100-$250K for a year, for example. Peanuts considering the revenue from men's BB.

Bottom line: If we keep doing what we've been doing for the past 20-30 years spanning three different athletic administrations there is no reason whatsoever to expect different results. Something(s) have to be done differently and we don't know what those things are. It's time to pay someone to tell us...someone having nothing to do with the program or the University.

An opinion.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:47 PM
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If Big Steve had lived Archie would still be at Dayton. Who could not love the big kid.

Big Steve say No!
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Basketball success comes first.
Respectfully disagree.

Money comes first. We bring money. As long as we bring money we always have a chance at a step up.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Respectfully disagree.

Money comes first. We bring money. As long as we bring money we always have a chance at a step up.
So you are saying if we are profitable and finish under .500 each year we get an invite into a conference like the BE?
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer2 View Post
If Big Steve had lived Archie would still be at Dayton. Who could not love the big kid.

Big Steve say No!
Unfortunately Archie was gone when a short list of P5 schools called. Didn't matter who was at UD. He kept his word to the class of 4 and after that all bets were off.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
When someone else, or some other organization, is doing exactly what you want to do...succeeding exactly as you want to succeed, what do you do...what does any thinking person do? Of course! You copy them....do exactly what they are doing....exactly! Assuming, of course, that you have the required resources. And we do...and then some.

Doesn't that suggest there is another aspect to this? In the post Frericks era we've had three more than competent ADs, Ted, Tim, Neil,...along with four men's coaches...spanning almost three decades. We've had successes that would be the envy of most similar institutions....but light years away from the likes of peers, Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Villanova....where we want to be.

Given the smart, dedicated people involved at UD and the resources at their disposal, I suggest for the consideration of all that there must be something else...something fundamental that we may not fully appreciate or have control over. The time span is so long, the leadership so varied, the resources so plentiful....it's not reasonable to blame our situation on incompetence or bad luck (or the wrong conference).

Think about it. What fundamental thing(s) present obstacles preventing Dayton from regularly recruiting the kind of players needed to reach our goals. (I think I read that Villanova lost three starters from last year's championship team...three!....and look at VU's success this year.)

This is what I think Neil should do....I've said this before. Sometimes there is great benefit by bringing in a set of fresh eyes. I would (privately) hire an objective, independent outside expert to assess our program. Someone having unquestionable experience and accomplishments....have him study the situation for as long as it takes, months, a year, whatever....pay him whatever he asks....something like $100-$250K for a year, for example. Peanuts considering the revenue from men's BB.

Bottom line: If we keep doing what we've been doing for the past 20-30 years spanning three different athletic administrations there is no reason whatsoever to expect different results. Something(s) have to be done differently and we don't know what those things are. It's time to pay someone to tell us...someone having nothing to do with the program or the University.

An opinion.
I think globally there are a ton of factors that go into the overall decision. Don't disagree there. I think that certain people put too much weight on things that IMO don't have as much weight. Sorry to anyone that thinks we can be a profitable mediocre basketball school and get into a borderline P5 conference. I just don't believe that to be the case.

I have faith in UD's current athletic administration. I think this is the most progressive they have been. Nothing wrong with consultations. On the other hand though isn't that where a seasoned guy like Mike Kelly comes into play? Yes...he is a UD guy from top to bottom. But I would think that if there is one person at UD right now that knows the big picture and can give the fatherly advice to the new guys, he would be it. Yes...this isn't his core job responsibility, but what an asset.

I have stated what I believe are UD's hurdles. I think many of them include that Dayton, itself, is in a saturated sports and basketball market versus other successful mid major schools. I think that Dayton hamstrings UD just as much as Columbus helps OSU. Face it, we are in Dayton, Ohio. I am also a Dayton homer saying that. If I didn't like the Dayton area, I wouldn't be here. I simply think that the draw here is limited unless you want to be a student a a good university that knows how to party. Other than that, half the students at UD couldn't tell you squat about anything that isn't 5 minutes from campus. Many people don't agree with that and I can tell you the ones that don't are most likely over 48 years old and weren't recruited for college athletics. Hate to say it, but outside of the basketball program (if you are a basketball recruit)...other larger metro areas are more desirable for an 18 year old.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
That momentum failure started with Archie and carried over to Grant. That momentum failure dealt with losing recruits and the death of a player. That momentum failure had nothing to do with the current coach and administration and lands squarely on the hand we were dealt with an outgoing coach (that probably knew he was outgoing) and factors that UD, the administration, and the current staff had no control over.

I agree that 9th place and NIT's doesn't move the needle one bit. Which goes back exactly to what Avid and I were discussing. It doesn't matter who UD is, what affiliation we are, how good we are in non-revenue, how big of a TV market, etc....if we finish in the middle of the pack in the A10 and don't win conference championships....we are dead to the BE and dead to any other speculative conference. Basketball success comes first. Not any of the other reasons. If everything else is fantastic and we still are flat on the basketball court, we still don't get invited to anything.
I didn’t mention anything about Grant. Why can’t people on this board be critical of the team/admin as a while without others turning it into a pro-grant thread? This is getting as bad as pro vs anti-trump supporters.
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Respectfully disagree.

Money comes first. We bring money. As long as we bring money we always have a chance at a step up.
Where's that next chance coming from?UD has always had money.We've always brought $$. We jumped from the Midwest conference to the A10. Where next?

At some point you have to have actual sustained success in the conference you're in. You have to win a couple titles and/or conference tourneys.

UD has $$, they have a tremendous following/alumni, they travel like crazy, they have a world renowned arena that has millions of people watching for 10 hours on 2 different nights for the first four games, they have unbelievable history and success, they have a tremendous location, they have an unbelievable academic institution, etc.etc.

What gives? X was first to the finish line because of 20 plus years of real basketball success and while they're 40 miles from UD, I believe there was room in the BIG EAST but you have to have sustainable success...
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I didn’t mention anything about Grant. Why can’t people on this board be critical of the team/admin as a while without others turning it into a pro-grant thread? This is getting as bad as pro vs anti-trump supporters.
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100% agree. If you mention anything negative about the team's play, people go into AG defense mode like someone is bullying their little sister.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:30 AM
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I think $$ and success in terms of being attractive to the BE go hand in hand. I don't think the BE is as concerned with us selling out the arena and making lots of money to put in our purse BUT they are certainly interested in if we can bring people to the Garden for the league tourney, put eyes on TV sets and most importantly if we can win some games in the NCAA tourney and earn those much sought after credits and that's how success and money relate to each other.

As for people that keep talking about having to be in an attractive metro area to be able to recruit, there are many many examples on both sides where this just isn't true.

Good in not a good metro area:
UConn - Have you been to Storrs?

Bad in a good metro area:
Depaul - When is the last time they have been relevant?

There is one of each, let's hear some more examples.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:37 AM
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BE/Fox TV contact expires in 4 years in 2023...might be our last chance to move up if they decide to expand...not long off...we will see what happens...
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:33 AM
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May have missed my point...

Originally Posted by steve View Post
......At some point you have to have actual sustained success in the conference you're in. You have to win a couple titles and/or conference tourneys.

But why haven't we?

UD has $$, they have a tremendous following/alumni, they travel like crazy, they have a world renowned arena that has millions of people watching for 10 hours on 2 different nights for the first four games, they have unbelievable history and success, they have a tremendous location, they have an unbelievable academic institution, etc.etc.

What gives? X was first to the finish line because of 20 plus years of real basketball success and while they're 40 miles from UD, I believe there was room in the BIG EAST but you have to have sustainable success...
Again, why haven't we when peers like X, GU, Bu, VU, have had sustainable success?

That's my point. Over the better part of at least two decades those institutions have had the very success we covet. Like UD, those schools have had changes in athletics administration and coaches. Yet they march along enjoying the sustained success that alludes us.

My career experience working on and leading some pretty complex programs tells me that if you have very good people working a problem and they have ample resources,...and yet you are not succeeding,..it's likely that there is something wrong with your approach. Unless/until you find out what that is you will not succeed. That's where fresh eyes come in. It's far easier for expert outsiders to see what may be wrong than it is for those so very close to the program.

Fresh expert advice never hurts and very often helps. At a minimum it may confirm that you are doing everything possible but that there are important issues over which you have no control. Even that would be reassuring.

Plodding along without some form of conformation that something important is not being overlooked is unacceptable.
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:59 AM
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Fun thread, but it's never going to happen.
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I didn’t mention anything about Grant. Why can’t people on this board be critical of the team/admin as a while without others turning it into a pro-grant thread? This is getting as bad as pro vs anti-trump supporters.
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There was no comparison with the coaches. Quit being blind to the argument and cherry picking a portion of a statement. The argument is that the momentum was already coming off the rails prior to the last two seasons. Decommits and a death of a player. That is a hell of a lot more circumstantial than based on the abilities of a coach.

Archies last year and AG's first year were simply riding on the coat tails of the very successful seasons prior. Had nothing to do with individual coaching abilities and everything to do with the situations that occurred within the program.

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Old 03-22-2019, 03:42 AM
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Taken from Lance McCallister's Facebook page:

Hey Lance,
I've been thinking about the parallels between where Northern Kentucky University basketball is in 2019 and where Xavier basketball was in the early 1980s.

When Xavier made their first NCAA tournament appearance in March 1983, the Musketeers averaged 3,092 fans at their home games that season.
This year, NKU averaged 3,292 fans.

This is NKU's second NCAA appearance in three seasons. Xavier didn't make it's second NCAA appearance until 1986, and the Musketeers were still only averaging 5,171 at home (and that was Pete Gillen's first season).

While Xavier was playing off campus in the old Cincinnati Gardens, NKU already has a beautiful on-campus arena. The Norse are years ahead of where the Musketeers were in this regard.

NKU is in the Horizon League, which is basically Xavier's league (MCC) until the Musketeers joined the Atlantic 10 in 1994-95.

Drew McDonald is like the Byron Larkin of NKU. McDonald is a local guy who stayed home and took the Norse to 2 NCAA tournaments. Larkin was a local guy who stayed home and took Xavier to its third, fourth and fifth NCAA tournaments.

NKU coach John Brannen is like Bob Staak/Pete Gillen for Xavier.

People forget just how horrific Xavier basketball was before Staak (and they weren't good under him at first). Before the Musketeers made their first NCAA tournament appearance in 1983 they had gone through an 18-season stretch with a cumulative record of 185-290. They had only two winning seasons in those 18 years.

I'm not saying NKU is going to someday become Xavier, but I do believe the parallels of today and Xavier's early 1980s shows that the Norse have a foundation to build upon. They already have a nice on-campus area and they're in a conference that they win and earn NCAA berths.

The next step for NKU is to upset a big name in the NCAA tournament, the way Xaiver did under Gillen.

The people in Northern Kentucky would really get behind the Norse if they got the ball rolling the way Xavier did under Gillen, Prosser, Matta, Miller and Mack. As a native of Newport, I know people in northern Kentucky feel the rest of the state doesn't pay attention to the area and the city of Cincinnati ignores northern Kentucky. It's an area that craves an identity (and loves basketball) and could really find one if Northern Kentucky basketball grew the way Xavier basketball grew.
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:49 PM
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But Dayton is not Villanova and never has been. What Nova does does not translate to what Dayton does. They are selling a completely different product, from a different vantagepoint, with a different conference, and different tradition and history. Other than being private and catholic, the two schools have nothing in common basketball-wise. The Wildcats have three title banners hanging from the rafters and those arent NIT titles.

Xavier is probably a better candidate for the emulation theory. But when you get down to it, the only real difference is recruiting. Xavier consistently got better players than Dayton did. We would get Binnie, they would get Doellman. We would get Warren, they would get Holloway. We would get Waleskowski, they would get West. We would get Mikesell, they would get Macura. We would get Stafford, they would get Thornton. We would get Lowery, they would get Crawford. We would get Gaydosh, they would get Grant. We would get Fabrizius, they would get Redford.

Gillen, Prosser, Matta, and Mack were not Beethovens. But they recruited at an extremely high level -- guys that would play in the NBA. Guys that could single-handedly take over games and win when Xs and Os broke down. The last 30 years of XU basketball is littered with Tu Holloways and Jordan Crawfords and Jamie Gladdens and Trevon Blueitts and Semaj Christons and Romain Satos. There is no equivalency on Dayton's side.

In most seasons Xavier brings in at least three Top-100 recruits and usually two are in the Top-65 range. They recruit at an extraordinarily high level. They win with talent. Better players make coaches better coaches.

Grant is taking a somewhat different approach and going the transfer route. Its worked wonders for Musselman at Nevada. It could be our golden road too. But to get to that next level, we need better players and better players in the 6-10 rotation. Depth counts in March. Verdict is still out on whether Grant can make it happen, but thats why the next two seasons should prove interesting to see if whats on paper translates to the court.
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